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Montevideo, September 25th 2023 - 09:24 UTC



Morales insists in involving the Pope in the ongoing sea outlet dispute between Bolivia and Chile

Wednesday, December 27th 2017 - 09:42 UTC
Full article 124 comments

Bolivian President Evo Morales implied in a Tweet that he and Pope Francis had discussed Bolivia’s territorial dispute with Chile during a meeting at the Vatican on December 15. According to the Vatican, the 30-minute private meeting “took place in a cordial atmosphere.” Read full article


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  • Chicureo

    Morales can go and pound sand.

    Dec 27th, 2017 - 12:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Patrick Edgar

    Some countries think of militarization as their need for defense, for they are often the target of stronger abusive countries.
    Other countries feel they need to be strong for themselves and others.
    Other countries still base their militarization on paranoia, because they have been provocative and abusive towards their neighbors, and though they wont admit it, know they have taken territory from another country that was never theirs.

    Dec 27th, 2017 - 05:06 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • DemonTree

    You really do have it in for Chile!

    Why do you think Nazi Germany militarised? They do not fit any of your reasons.

    PS. I replied to you about Antarctica on the other thread.

    Dec 27th, 2017 - 07:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Patrick Edgar

    You know... It's always the same way for me DemonT; I come in to a British dominant or generally pro Brit forum making the big mistake of thinking I can just be respectfully honest, and that that alone will have a worth while discussion ensue. I always loose. To make matters worse the odd Chilean who picks up my west side of the boarder roots feels extra cocky protected in by his British surroundings. If I have to pick out were the mistake actually occurs, it must be in my radically unlevelheaded triggery combative temperament, lurking behind my brainy different world order pacifist gaian visionary. Something in me gives out when another wants to confront or fight with me. I don't know how to stop, and it just keeps getting worse as others fall prey to pack attack behaviour. I can never come back from it. I try, there is always the obligatory long winded diplomatic humbly self objectifying dissertation, but the tone was set, and I am never to be accepted in the group other than as some uncomprehended pirah.
    @other thread. I saw that... I wrote something for you, but at the end suddently my laptop internet conspiracy did one its tricks meant to frustrate me and remind me as it regularly does I'm nothing and no one. ... That seems to be Jim Carrey 's “new stratosphere” too lately. I'll go back and see if I can come up with a summarized version for you of what I wrote. By the way,
    I'm discovering the flock by looking other threads here. I'm actually quite humbled. There's some smart people here.

    Dec 27th, 2017 - 09:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • :o))

    REF: “involvement of the Pope”:

    #1: What's the amount - fees/commission - charged by the Papal-Office under such circumstances?
    #2: Does anyone know?

    Dec 27th, 2017 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Patrick Edgar

    To be fair, Chile and Peru should both share giving back a big fat chunk of land to Bolivia, so it can have ample access and a choice of places to build its harbors at. But I can't really see any country finding it easy to wake up the next day looking at their map having become a good obvious chunk smaller than it was the day before. I think the only “high road” and truly intelligent political course for either Bolivia and its sea access, or every other sovereignty situation going on in South American is INTEGRATION. The only thing that makes sense for the future in a worldly and local history context is for all our countries to focus once more on something bigger outside themselves at which to aim to, giving every one a good dose of creative motivation and busy themselves with a grand optimistic vision for the immediate future. It could start with the original ex colonial vice-royalties blocks reuniting, or it could just continue on paths that have already started getting laid down at various levels. But basically the optimal way today to give the Bolivian people free and for ever access to the ocean again, is to remover its boarder with Argentina and Paraguay... or with Chile, and Peru, or with Brazil. Or to just rid the Continent of all its boarders.

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 12:54 am - Link - Report abuse -4
  • DemonTree

    You are never going to get a good reception in here if you support Argentina's claims, the most you can hope for is a civil discussion and that relies on you staying civil even with provocation. It's obvious that Chicureo is trying to annoy you, and it's working. You can't force people to be polite, but how you respond is totally within your control.

    Why do Argentina and Chile have this kind of rivalry thing going anyway? I've seen it in other places on the internet too.

    Integration seems more likely to succeed than expecting Chile (or Peru) to hand over a big chunk of land to Bolivia willingly. It should be much easier than the EU, too, since except for Brazil those countries all speak the same language and were all part of the same empire fairly recently.

    And I'm curious, which of the posters here do you think are particularly smart?

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 11:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @Patrick Edgar

    REF: “South American is INTEGRATION ....................... just rid the Continent of all its borders”:

    Yes! Why not?

    Headquartered in Latin America and encouraged by the local governments; the Drug/Arms Dealers plus the Money-Laundering Bankers are already quite active and are successful in their worldwide integration!

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 11:12 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Patrick Edgar

    Drug and Arms dealers is a phenomena that originated elsewhere, it was born in other international social exchange condition-situations; U.S. / Mexico and U.S. / Northern South America. Europe / Northern Africa , Europe / Middle East and then of course within Asia. To apply focally the dynamics of this problem rooted in other parts of the world to a contemporary understanding of relationships between South America nations with one another, though more of it has caught on no less thanks to cultural exportation, is the cheat yourself out of the accurate and complete panorama of South American history and its own evolution indepent of the northern hemisphere's. One of the ailing contemporary conditions of the planet as a whole is the unjustly large number of countries that are becoming literately defined by young generations only exposed in their complete education and knowledge to narrow minded self spun versions of historical understanding from the countries they grew up in. This is a terrible force in world education, shoving of 70 or 80% of other peoples perspectives taking out with it nearly every time the truth, as it is known to the protagonists of that history and affected by its events. It's become thanks to mass media communications, a meddlesome misinforming world ! And yet, I agree with the first part of your comment @:o)) , Sometimes the easiest solution and most called for remedy is right there under our noses.

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 12:40 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • The Voice

    How is the Pope some sort of mediator? His function is simply to prolong belief in fairytales and keep the masses in ignorance and poverty diverting charitable funds from worthwhile causes. Seems to be a serial error on the part of large parts of the planet who suffer the same delusion.

    I note that the garrulous annoying twits have popped up here too, diverting discussion on the topic. Best ignored....

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 03:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • DemonTree

    As long as both sides believe in the fairytale, then the Pope can be a mediator. It stopped Argentina and Chile going to war, didn't it? But it sounds like the Pope doesn't want to get involved in this one anyway.

    “Best ignored....”

    Practice what you preach, TV. There was no discussion here to divert, if people want to talk about something else it's not your problem.

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 03:56 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Chicureo

    In reference to the Bolivian Pacific coastline, we stole what is now part of Bolivia and Peru about 100 years ago. Chile during that war lost a large part of its claim to Patigonia. During the Pinochet government, a thin corridor along the Peruvian border was proposed, but rejected by Peru.

    Bolivia today has full free port access to the Pacific via rail built by Chile.

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +5
  • Patrick Edgar

    South America should just be one country. And a fusion of Spanish and Portuguese (Portuñol) should be taught in all schools. En of story.

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Chicureo

    To be conjoined to Argentina???
    No friggin way!!!

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 09:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Pete Bog


    It would be great if Chile got part of Patagonia back. When I lived in the Falklands,(late 1980s) a DAP pilot told me at the time most of the workers in Patagonia were Chilean as the Argies couldn't hack the climate. Don't know if that was true. He didn't seem too impressed with his neighbours, being more delighted how the Chileans had helped the Brits in 1982. He also said what a shame it was that his government didn't let British Phantoms, Buccaneers and Vulcans use Punta Arenas!

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 09:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Chicureo


    Britain DID use airfields in the south, including sometimes using Chilean markings on their aircraft...

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Patrick Edgar

    When was Chile ever any larger that it is now? What delusions! You're country never spilled over the Andes, it just kept trying to beat Argentina in its race to the Magellans Streight. You wouldn't have the Straight if it hadn't been for Britain. You agreed to the Pacific being Chilean and the Atlantic Argentine while clearly the three Beagle Channel islands are in the Atlantic. For a while we had the noble conversation of dropping the line down the center of Cabo de Hornos, but nothing is ever enough for you guys, and isla Navarino by the way, should be on the Argentine side. You mutilated Bolivia and robbed it of a much wealthier future! OK IT's on NOW! @DemonT ... I just remembered one of your questions. You want to know why Chile resents Argentina? Because they were always “the second favorite”, They hate that our founding father San Martin lead the campaign to free them from the Spanish, totally trying to cut the glory of that out of their history books. The hated that people's vanity and superficiality in Hispanic America would always talk about Argentina as “The European South American country” populated by white people, while they clearly look more mixed in with their native people. They are caught in the dumb blond sister brunette sister bullshit! And yes, because they think so small, they are easily led by foreign corporations and British and American interest. The reason being that their greatest satisfaction in the universe is to no longer be second to Argentina. Existence for a country is easy when that's all you need to focus on!

    Dec 28th, 2017 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Chicureo

    Patrick, PLEASE continue with another diatribe of two thousand characters to expose your arse. Pretty please...

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 01:44 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • imoyaro

    Chicureo, when it comes to Chilean history, it could be said I am a “Carrerista,” although my favorite is Manuel Rodriguez. Both were killed by the the Argentines, O'Higgens being a Lautaro Lodge tool of San Martin. Belgrano failed utterly to take over Paraguay, and to disarm Martin Guemes, the real hero against the Spanish in northwest Argentina. Every time I see the Argentine flag I am reminded Belgrano died of syphillis. Looks like the muppet needs to read some history, as his gods had feet of clay...

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 02:39 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Patrick Edgar

    All you got is you're own perspective. And we all have a personality trait or traits that come through in how we chose to respond. That you know more details about Southern Cone history than I imagined, means only that. How you present that knowledge and to say what, is what actually makes you an ass or not. I enjoy people who try and give an intimate personality rendition of historical figures to try and convey just how much they know, because they're like some little guy that rushes into a room making a whole lot of noise bugging everyone to try and draw attention to themselves, only to walk out just as fast as they came in not saying a single thing that is pertinent to what people were ready to hear about.

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 06:31 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • The Voice

    Ho ho ho!

    I Think the American garrulous annoying twit has summed himself up pretty accurately?

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 09:57 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • imoyaro


    Actually. I can't present what I know in here outside of a lengthy research paper. Or five. But I can sum you up in one brief sentence. You are nothing but a stinking, genocidal Kurepi. :)

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 10:25 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Patrick Edgar

    Ya Voice, I was expecting your shallow head to say something like that.
    Discúlpenme muchachos, entendí todo al revés. Les intercambié sus comentarios sin darme cuenta.
    Te digo la verdad Curreo, me pone muy triste y desilucionado cuando leo aquellos Sudamericanos que se ponen bien pendejos y se creen que la muy real y debida necesidad de unificación que sufrimos sea motivo de risa y desprecio. Demuestra realmente revelada la ignorancia, mentalidad pasivamente subjugada y mas ausente auto estima que subconcientemente sentimos

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse -4
  • RICO

    It must be a bit annoying for the worlds Roman Catholics that wish to know what Pope Francis thinks that as well as following Pope Francis tweets, they now must also follow Morales as well if they want to get a full picture of the Popes views.

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 10:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Heh, he's mixed you up with Voice. Now whose fault is that?

    Can't say I disagree with you though. ;)

    Or they just don't want to be united with a country whose people have such a poor opinion of them.

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 10:59 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Chicureo


    José Miguel Carrera is my favorite Chilean hero of independence.
    I notice our boy Patrick cannot express himself in English or Español, which says a lot about his lack of education.

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 11:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • imoyaro


    “José Miguel Carrera is my favorite Chilean hero of independence”

    Why am I not surprised? ;)

    ¡Viva la Vieja Patria!

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 12:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    He went to school in the USA...

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 12:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Going to school and learning at school are two different things for our imbecile.

    PATRICK. Please, another two thousand character diatribe pleeeeeze...

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 12:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Patrick Edgar

    What's the point of being “so educated” and well read, if it's leadership worth is wasted, or missleads? I would say it becomes a burden. ...
    Keep in mind, mankind's civilization is lead by people's logical intelligence. Need I say more? ... Yet, that is what we have to sail our existence in this universe. I just feel we are far from being proud of it or satisfied, rather we have a lot to be ashamed for and feel stupid, having so far done what we have for ourselves with it so far. Sorry Curreo, but I'm having a hard hard time seeing what reason you could possibly have to brag so much and feel so cocky. You don't even really come off to me as a true Chilean

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • The Voice

    Some Americans do have trouble expressing tnemselves.... ;-))))

    Is there such a thing as a SA redneck? Qué?

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    Dunno about leadership but it would make your comments easier to read. Bad writing is lazy because it saves you effort but forces the reader to do more work understanding what you mean.

    Did your school in America teach you only in English? And could you speak it before you started there?

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 01:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Patrick Edgar

    The Pacific War of South America was not about a sovereignty claim. Yet Chile took advantage of its military superiority and British help to take territory that was undisputed Bolivian sovereign land. ... I see there are a few “history buffs” in the group, I wonder if they can demonstrate their prowess in explaining what was Chile's political logic to seize Bolivian land for itself, and what excuse does it have, in the era of The Marshall Plan, The European Unification, and the Soviet Union's disaggregation, to simply not give back this territory considering the overwhelmingly humongous harm it has cost Bolivia's development and integration into the world. It would not be incomparable to a bully keeping a defenseless person on the ground with his boot on his neck until that person passes out and is useless for the rest of the day, just so that it can keep that person's wallet. So Morales is not even assuming anything, Chile has made overtures and agreements demonstrating it wronged Bolivia. He is looking for a mediator that is neutral to both countries and would be respectable by Chile.
    You know @Chicurreo, I know I said that I liked the humble and unpretentious demeanor of the Chileans. But the more I think about this issue, the more I start seeing that it's just a phony front. That deep inside Chileans are a scornful mean selfish people, hiding their true selves and in waiting for the day they can really let it out. Antofagasta confirms it.

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 02:32 pm - Link - Report abuse -7
  • imoyaro

    I see Edgar is not very well read in history. Actually, Chile had claims to the Atacama which they resolved in Bolivia's favor under treaty in 1874 in return for a promise not to raise taxes on existing Chilean businesses in the disputed region. Five years later, the Bolivian president, Hilarion Daza, decided to unilaterally break the treaty, and Chile then reclaimed the previously disputed territory. Typically Bolivian behavior, if you ask me, with predictable results. (Witness the Chaco war with Paraguay in the 1930s.)

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 02:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Patrick Edgar

    “had claims” ... I don't need details. I just need you to disprove me. Chile had never moved its boarders above Antofagasta until South America's Pacific War. It may have had businesses there, but it never was Chilean territory, it was Bolivian.

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 03:10 pm - Link - Report abuse -7
  • imoyaro

    Riiiiight. They didn't just have claims, they had a presence. As for moving north of that, the Peruvians made that happen. Again you are trying to obfuscate. Typical viveza criolla, eh, Edgar?

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • DemonTree

    “Witness the Chaco war with Paraguay in the 1930s.”

    I found an interesting article about this. Quote:

    “It was also a war in which Paraguay, by far the smaller, weaker power, emerged victorious in 1935, in control of the entire disputed Chaco region, and so was able to dictate the terms of the peace signed in Buenos Aires in 1938.”

    Bolivia doesn't seem to be very good at war. Paraguay does, but not so good at picking its battles.

    Didn't Argentina take a valuable mate growing region from Paraguay after the War of the Triple Alliance? Would you be willing to give Misiones and Formosa provinces back to them?

    What about all the states the US took from Mexico after their war? Do you think they should hand those over too?

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 05:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    The reason why Bolivia hasn't had a seacoast in over 100 years is because they broke a treaty with Chile with disastrous results. There is a through and balanced report in Wikipedia about the Guerra del Pacífico, in which Bolivia was allied with Peru against Chile that gained the Atacama desert that was rich with nitrates. Chile lost an important claim of a large part of Patagonia.

    Our boy Patrick is correct in his assessment that Chileans are humble with none of the typical pretentious complex demeanor of the Argentines, because we're just simply better.

    We have a better navy, air force, army, national police force all trained and armed far better than our neighbors. Our country's economic status is rated the best in Latin America and we have the lowest rate of corruption in LatAm as well.

    Patrick sounds to me like the typical paranoid crybaby blaming everyone else for their troubles.

    Morales can go and pound sand!

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 05:11 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • DemonTree

    “Chileans are humble... because we're just simply better.”

    Lol. I can see that. ;)

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • imoyaro


    Funny thing about Bolivia, after they were defeated along the coast, they withdrew from the fight, but not the war, leaving the Peruvians to take the worst damage by far. The Bolivians sat in the mountains while Peru lost its capital, and suffered a terribly damaging war in the interior, which naturally cost the Chileans dearly. At the end of the war they thought the Chileans would reward them for their cowardly performance. Nope...

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 05:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • The Voice

    Perhaps we should ask the American garrulous annoying twit for his take on the footlong Subway pricecap that is causing so much angst in the US?

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 05:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Chicureo

    Funny thing about Peru. When Pinochet's government proposing giving a strip of land on the Peruvian border for Bolivia to gain access to the Pacific, Peru strongly rejected the idea.

    Anyway, there's a reason why a peaceful little country like Chile has large complements of German Leopard tanks, f-16 fighter jets and the second best navy in Latin America.*

    (*Brazil is far larger.)

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • imoyaro

    “.. Peru strongly rejected the idea.”

    Given Bolivia's past performance, who could blame them? ;)

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Frank

    'the second best navy in Latin America.*

    (*Brazil is far larger.)'

    Larger isn't neccesarily better.....

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 07:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Chicureo


    The pre-WWII German navy in many ways was superior to the Royal Navy, but guess who won? Obviously, I have a prejudice towards my country's navy, but despite the lack of training of their officer corps and questionable corrupt equipment acquisitions, size places Brazil number three in the Americas.

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 08:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Patrick Edgar

    LOL ... It wasn't the British navy who won.

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 10:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • DemonTree

    Yes it was. Britain is an island and was highly dependant on imports to survive and fight. If the U-boats had managed to sink enough ships we would have had to surrender. The Royal Navy prevented that.

    Dec 29th, 2017 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo


    Our delusional friend seems to forget that the United States did not enter the war until December 1941. The German pocket battleships were formidable to challenge, but the British destroyed them in battle.

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 12:02 am - Link - Report abuse +4
  • DemonTree

    A sadly large number of Americans seen to think the war didn't start until December 1941, and that they won it single handed. It annoys the Russians immensely too since they did most of the heavy lifting defeating the German army.

    We did have support from the Canadian Navy right from the beginning though. The Nazi's only had Italy...

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 12:29 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • imoyaro

    People who believe that don't know history. It was the ALLIES that won the war...

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 01:19 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Patrick Edgar


    Dec 30th, 2017 - 09:32 am - Link - Report abuse -5
  • DemonTree

    People who believe what?

    What of it?

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 11:43 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Patrick Edgar

    nothing, never mind. another “lost page of writing about WW2”. I guess some people can't handle the neutral and objective truths about WW2

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 12:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Chicureo

    Patrick is referring to the French fleet being attacked by Allies forces...ébi

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 12:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    I know what he's referring to. It's a very sad and controversial incident, especially since it might have been avoided if not for miscommunication, but what does it have to do with whether the pre-WWII German navy was better than the Royal Navy, or who won?

    He's just throwing in anything he thinks makes Britain look bad.

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 12:57 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Think

    Mr. Chicureo...
    You say...:
    “The pre-WWII German navy in many ways was superior to the Royal Navy”...

    I say...:
    I suppose that.., as a Prat educated Shilean Navy Officer..., you can give just a couple of RELEVANT examples of “which SIGNIFICANT ways” the Kriegsmarine was superior to the Royal Navy during the 2er. WK...

    As this humble Patagonian remembers..., the Krauts.., having lost the 1te. WK..., were severily limited in their rearmament and their Kriegsmarine was NEVER bigger than ~20% of the Engrish Navy...

    As allways...,If you have any REAL info that contradicts this old mans' Erlebnisse..., he would be most happy to learn...

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 01:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • The Voice

    I dont understand why the Trolls always speak in tongues. Is it an affliction? None of them can write in plain English.

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 03:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Patrick Edgar

    It seems to me, you are the closest thing to a “troll” around here; sweetie

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 03:13 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Chicureo


    My argument was that Brazil has a better navy compared to Chile due to its overall size. I also pointed out that “The pre-WWII German navy in many ways was superior to the Royal Navy”

    I stand on that comment because, despite the Germans having a small fleet, their advanced designs of “ pocket battleships” and submarines were far advanced for the time. They just did not have enough vessels. Size does count.

    There is a reasonable debate still going on about the quality of German officer training, but history shows Britain had superior officers and far better intelligence. U-boat losses were extreme due to radar and the Enigma code breakthrough.

    Any way, it was a flippant comment...

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 03:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Think

    Flippant it was..., indeed...

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Captainsilver

    The deluded masses are eagerly awaiting the Popes annual bless fest. When I was last in St Peters Square he threw his rug out of the window and appeared. The queue at the burger van vanished so we jumped in. Idol worship seems to be another progress sapping international affliction. Where are rational people going wrong? The human race could move forward so much faster without mumbo jumbo.

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 05:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Patrick Edgar

    YES “CaptainSilver” ! It's true ! Damn idol worshipers !

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 06:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Patrick, you might enjoy Goldyloppers and the three Bearloaders by Stanley Unwin...right up your street. Look it up!

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 07:27 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Patrick Edgar

    I can't tell you how much your profile picture annoys me

    Dec 30th, 2017 - 09:08 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Voice

    Speaking of multi-ID trolls...
    I see The Voice is now using his Captainsilver id again...
    So much for telling Demontree that it was retired....
    Is anything you ever say true...?

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 12:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Patrick Edgar

    Got a question for the group. “Abro tema” like we say in Spanish, except we are still on the same subject. “Focus on the subject” then.

    Are wars unequivocally always to some degree the fault, the responsibility, and the excessive or abusive behavior of 'both' nations always, surely in different ways; or are some wars the exclusive and only fault of one and not the other country at all?

    I'm “logic contextualizing” the question mainly in hindsight, retro-analyzing how wars have occurred in the past. So that we don't have to think initially so philosophically or conceptually. Though it is understood that the answer would apply to war in general, all the time and in the future.

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • The Voice

    Voicey, I am more truthful than you, and you know it! Just an opportunity to confuse a troll. Celtic Connections soon, looking forward to a bit of cycling and hill walking in between....hope the snow relents.

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 12:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “Are wars unequivocally always to some degree the fault, the responsibility, and the excessive or abusive behavior of 'both' nations always, surely in different ways; or are some wars the exclusive and only fault of one and not the other country at all?”

    Some wars are only the fault of one country. Many are the fault of both, but not always equally.

    You were telling me recently how unpopular I was, and I certainly did get a lot of downvotes. It occurs to me that between your 4 accounts and Kanye's 3, there could be some cheating going on here...

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 01:01 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • The Voice

    DT, if you post something that I consider daft and I see it, I 'might' downvote it, but only once. I know a very famous programmer who earned $10 million for 40 lines of code. He was what I would describe as an intelligent idiot... He was good to be with in a Casino though!

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 01:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Glad to hear it. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but I'd rather you comment and say why than simply downvote. If you have evidence then I *will* listen.

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 03:19 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • The Voice

    Norwegian are going to be doing return flights to Argieland from only £565 - theres your chance to gather some real experience of that country's attitude to us and life... Look at the clock, stand in front of the Red House, stroll in a Villa, watch what happens after nightfall etc etc. Or, you can soon fly direct to Nashville..

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Patrick Edgar

    Alright @DemonT, I tend to think usually both countries nearly always have at least some involvement towards what ultimately lead to war, or did something that continued to fuel the build up, or; saw that not changing their behavior was going to lead there, and didn't. But I accept your response.
    So then my next question is. Which of the two (both to blame, or only one to blame) do you feel this war resulting in Bolivia being striped of its coastal access is?

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 05:27 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Chicureo


    You can gather all the information you desire on the internet, but the history of Bolivia is sad as their political leaders squandered valuable territories to Chile, Peru, Brazil and Argentina.

    Morales can go and pound sand...

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 08:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Patrick Edgar

    I don't see this as what “Morales” is doing now, has said or has not said.
    I think this is about what Chile does. You're finally in a good and winning streak. That whole area was not Chile's before. Your country took it savagely as a war trophy. And it wasn't because Bolivia was such a menacing hostile power, that you had to make sure now that you had the chance you plugged in up there. Your country did it to expand at the coast of crippling the development of another son of Spain.
    Countries need to start viewing themselves with the morality that people look at one another. Otherwise we are going to continue cannibalizing ourselves towards a mono-cultural world society, until the day we start crying because we will suddenly realize the tragedy of having lost the universe of possibilities we once held in our hands before we forsook truly celebrating and honoring the diversity and whole equality of each nation.

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 09:12 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Chicureo


    Morales has recently used a corrupt political action to allow him to run again for president. Morales has stirred up his followers that after 100 years, Bolivia will recover its seacoast.

    If you examine historical Latin American borders, nearly all countries have had border disputes that resulted in tens of thousands of deaths.

    Bolivia has free sea access with a railway and highway to a free port. During the Pinochet government, Chile offered a thin strip of land bordering Peru, but Peru strongly rejected the idea.

    The country that suffered the most was clearly Peru that was abandoned by Bolivia during the war.

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 09:43 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Patrick Edgar

    Chicureo, you keep making this about Morales. I'm asking you, why does Chile find it so hard to just give back a decent size piece of land, the Bolivian people can be happy about, that will go all the way to good bay where they can build a ocean fairing harbor ?

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 09:48 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Chicureo


    Bolivia already has free port privileges in the maritime ports in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Peru and Paraguay. There is no economic strangulation for Bolivia to import or export it's goods.

    Peru blocked giving Chilean territory to Bolivia along its border. The only other solution would be to cut the Chilean Atacama desert in half, which is ridiculous.

    Dec 31st, 2017 - 10:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Patrick Edgar

    It 's far from being the same. It's not a matter of having access privileges to harbors in other countries. A country needs to control its own harbor and control it's whole surroundings. It needs to have a civilian population and other related industries, set up the infrastructure and administration that works for its own use of the harbor. You can clearly see the impact to a country by comparing countries in the world with harbors and countries that are landlocked. It has vast ramifications. It's practically an insult by Chile to offer Bolivia access to the same ports it took from them. And it is not ridiculous to give half the territory you took from them back to them. It's a normal occurrence in the history of wars over territory. Sometimes it requires another war, you were just woeing about how countries kill each other over these sort of things. So you must agree it would be a great political move by Chile.

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 12:43 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • imoyaro

    I see Patrick is free and easy with other people's territory. Bolivia thought it could blow its way to Asunción and gain access to the sea via the rivers at Paraguay's expense. But as the song “Trece Tuyuti” goes, “Kundt came here saying there was nothing but cowards, but when that silly old gringo fell on his face, he broke his nose on the gates of Nanawa!”

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 01:03 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Voice


    The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea now gives a landlocked country a right of access to and from the sea without taxation of traffic through transit states.
    So what difference does it make...?
    70% of Scotland's freight tonnes comes by road even though it has large sea ports on both the East and West coasts...the UK‟s deep-sea container ports are all located in England...
    Having a sea port is not essential...think Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, and Austria...they do fine...

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 02:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Why did Peru object to Chile giving a strip of territory to Bolivia? What difference does it make to Peru?

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 11:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo


    ¡Feliz Año!

    If you watch the short video below, you'll understand how Bolivia lost huge parts of its territory over the years. Apparently Peru has two objections to allowing Chile to cede a strip of land to Bolivia to the sea. 1. The territory was once a part of Peru and they're still sore about the boundary. 2. Peruvians already “gifted” a small territorial piece of coastline to Bolivia which still remains undeveloped. Morales is all talk.

    You'll note that Austria had a seacoast until the end of WWI and yet no one is proposing a coastal access for them.

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • imoyaro

    The real reason Bolivia wants a sea coast is to be able to freely export cocaine without the scrutiny of other states...

    Morales himself is associated with the Cocaleros...

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 04:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    ¡Feliz 2018!

    Weren't a lot of those losses just paper claims to territory that Bolivia never really administered though? Similar to how Chile and Argentina both claimed the whole of Patagonia but neither actually possessed it until after the boundary was agreed?

    I guess it makes sense Peru would want to claim their former territory back rather than see it handed to Bolivia. This was the piece of coastline?

    And this bit is funny: “Chile's seizure of territory still rankles Bolivians and Peruvians, who say there is nothing more dangerous than a Chilean with a map and a pen. Chilean refusals to return some of the territory, as well as jokes about inviting Bolivians to the beach, have not helped salve the wounds.”

    I can't find anything more recent saying whether it has been developed though.

    Hungary also lost their coast after WWI, as well as 2/3rds of their land, and they still seem to be pissed off about it.

    They should probably just legalise all those drugs. The current bans are not working.

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 05:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo


    The history of Latin America is notable for its nations not exploring nor colonizing their territorial claims. Most of the losses of Bolivian territory was in fact due to their lack of administration as well as political idiocy by their leaders.

    One of the most interesting colonization efforts by Bolivia and Paraguay was to recruit Mennonite farmers to settle by offering land for nearly nothing. It was successful and the communities are thriving.

    Patrick seems to think Chile might disenfranchise part of our northern territory to satisfy Bolivia's desire for a coastline. I can assure everyone that there is not a snow ball's chance in heck for that to now be considered.

    Peru's earlier gift of land to use as a seaport resulted with zero development, despite all the initial talk. Morales uses the access to the sea to politically unite his people, with the loss of beneficial trade and investment.

    I'm currently sitting on a terrace overlooking the Pacific, savoring a nice Sauvignon Blanc and wishing you all the best wishes for a healthy and happy New Year!

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 05:50 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Patrick Edgar

    NO. @Chicureo. That's where all of you are wrong about me.
    To “satisfy” Fairness, and Justice, and sharing the world in Harmony and true Intelligence and Togetherness. ... To pull ourselves away from the primitive only-egocentric mind.
    YOU people see it as “to satisfy what an another wants”, and after experiencing the internet and these forums on facebook and other sites, it SEEMS to be because of being impregnated with Anglo English or American cultures. Or maybe it's all Hollywoods fault. I don't know. I just go by what I have been experiencing

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Think

    Currently sitting on a terrace overlooking the Mediterranean..., near a town a travelled Hermanita Shilena once defined as...:
    “Il paese di più grande valore umano, più accogliente e possiede la più grande capacità e sensibilità artistica al mondo...”
    drinking some Ulivetto frizzante naturale... and wishing the same to todos los hombres de buena voluntad...

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 06:39 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Chicureo

    Estimado THINK,

    Good to hear you're enjoying the sea air as well.
    Yes, Gabriela Mistral's prose still maintains its magic...

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @Chicureo and Think
    Lucky you. It's dark and raining here and like Bolivia lacking in coast views. Anyone know how to get rid of party guests who don't leave?

    At least the fireworks last night were good and the garden hot tub was pretty awesome. :)

    When your ideas of fairness, justice etc conveniently result in you getting what you want, while other people lose out, they are inclined to be a little suspicious of them.

    Happy new year everyone.

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 07:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo


    Think is on the coast in Italy and myself in Viña del mar. May I ask from where you're currently posting?

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 07:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Patrick Edgar

    Cari pesatori, I'll jump on the call for a “good will” band wagon then!
    Except im wrapped in sweaters and blankes snuggled up to my sweet Italian hound travel companion. If I walked out on “my terrace” overlooking the Tevere basin and the castle towns strewn on the hills around me, I would possibly die of pneumonia. ... So right now, I only get to look at the world through 'this' machine, and through the very loud tv my very elder landlady has on downstairs.
    ... on this new year's day, my thought for the group is: People! We can actually do this!! ... OK so no one wants me to lead, that's fine. LET'S DO IT ANYWAYS ! ... I'm happy to just be accepted in the group. What could any man best hope for!
    Un muy prospero y satisfaciente año nuevo a todos !!

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 07:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Mr.Patrick Edgar...

    You say...:
    So right now, I only get to look at the world........ through the very loud tv my very elder landlady has on downstairs.

    I say....:
    Let me guess...
    RAI1 - Soliti Ignoti - Shitty show ;-(

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 07:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Patrick Edgar

    So you and THINK are in Italia...
    It's good to know you share the company of dogs and mutually I wish you all the very best for this year!

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Chicureo, it sounds like you have the better deal since it's Summer where you are.

    I'm in the Midlands of England. No terrace, but I do have a nice view from my house.

    Patrick, how cold is it where you are? I don't need any blankets.

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 08:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Patrick Edgar

    @Think. She's been on a Christmas animated movies marathon for about two weeks, occasionally interrupted by Tg's (news) , and during the afternoon I get blasted by Italian dubbed American reality shows. But that's when I get to sneak my arm across the door and quietly turn off the tv. :)
    It's cold here, we're surprised it hasn't snowed yet, but there usually is a good dusting or two every winter.
    Ya, my pooch is lovely Chicureo. I got her while I was doing a summer English camp for kids in southern Italy, 'officially' adopted her from the country side. We spent three years here, then I took her with me to Hawaii. Three years there and she became me “emotional support animal” so she was able to travel in the cabin with me. We came back here for a month, then down to Argentina for a little over three months, now we're back here. My facebook suspension should be over tomorrow midday, so you guys are all invited to solicit friendship contact if you 'd like. But remember... I can be an ass. My heart is for Argentina, but I defend it like an American. So I'm reaaaaally pissed and its not getting better. However, I know I need an attitude change so .....what can I say. I'll try the best I can. Aloha!

    Jan 01st, 2018 - 10:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Facebook suspension? So that's why we've had the pleasure of your company lately. What do you have to do to get suspended by Facebook?

    Also, have you seen the supermoon? It's really bright here now the clouds have cleared.

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 12:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    I have a wire haired Dachshund who was given to me as a pup from a close friend in San Juan Argentina. He has quite a personality...

    The Midlands you say? Towards the end of my commission, I was assigned to study with the Royal Navy reserves at Chicksands in Bedfordshire. Beautiful countryside, but the weather was terrible.

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 01:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Heh, really? I'd say Bedfordshire has some of the better weather in the British Isles. Besides, Bedford is further from the equator than Puerto Natales in Chile, and I bet that isn't known for its pleasant climate.

    The countryside round me is also very pretty, and there are lots of small rural roads that are great for bike rides in summer.

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 12:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Great weather for MTBing here in the Thames Valley. Rain keeps the masses away and when you fall off its into mud or a soft bed of leaves. Its warm enough if you exert yourself and tbe brambles have died back in the woods. Time of the year for sitting by a roaring fire in the pub with a pint of ale and good company then home to a nice curry. Love our seasons..

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 12:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Mr. Chicureo...

    Ein Argie Dackel...?

    A “Pocket Dobermann”.., huhhh...?

    An unusual choice for an Anglo-Shilean milico..., I doThink...

    That makes you third in command at home..., I reckon...


    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 01:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Patrick Edgar

    LOL. I got a little “heated” at this Argentine idiot who keeps saying I'm not Argentine and mocks me all the time with things like “What are we today? Salvadorean???”, I'm coming back with a vengeance though, in a few hours actually. heh-heh-heh . Just kidding really, I'm working on other areas a lot more these days. I have an Animal Freedom Rights society I'm trying to build, and it's one of the reasons I was in Argentina lately. It's called Sociedad Filoanimal Argentina. And I have an Architecture Internet project I've been working on about Mar del Plata called Plaza Luro, about bringing better urban architecture awareness to Mar del Plata at a national level, and ya @DemonT . I saw the moon last night. We've finally had a clearing in the lousy weather we've been having.

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Q. Why would the Twinkle turnip spend £2 grand on a return flight from Patagonia's dinosaur country to rainy Italia in Europe's Midwinter?

    A. He didnt, he just said he did. In reality he flew Easyjet to Pisa from London for £99 because he actually operates from Brook Street!

    Creepy Argie propagandist...

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 03:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Chicureo

    I have no regrets about my stay because of the rain, because it was such beautiful country and the people were very friendly.

    The Dackel indeed has assumed second in command of the house. What a personality!

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 04:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think


    Those German Pocket Dogs are quite bossy...

    You Chicureos should rename yours with a fitting name like... Admiral Graf Spee... and accept the fact that..., sooner or later..., it will coup itself to complete obedience ;-)

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 04:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    I've always been a large dog fan, but when my Lab died of old age, my friend gave me one of his Dackle pups. He now owns the house...

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Voice

    Did someone mention rain...?
    Bedfordshire ain't got rain...England ain't got rain...
    We got proper rain...
    Chicureo obviously hasn't been North of the border....

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 05:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think


    A Lab fits perfectly in your profile...

    Anyhow... those stupid Canis Familiaris keep dying on one :-(

    I should have picked a Chelonoidis Nigra as a pet when young...;-)

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice


    “I got a little “heated” at this Argentine idiot who keeps saying I'm not Argentine and mocks me all the time with things like “What are we today? Salvadorean???”

    I don't want state the obvious...but he's right, you are not Argentine...

    Try replying...”You are right I'm what, how does that change anything...?”

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 05:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo


    They certainly live longer, but they are not as friendly. My Dackle is typical Argentine, he insists on riding in the front of the car, never the back seat. Thank heavens he's small...

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 05:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Glad you enjoyed it even if you were unlucky with the weather.

    My friend from Wigan assures me that it rains there everyday without fail, but I suspect he's exaggerating. The Lake District has way more rain than Edinburgh though.

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice


    One inch of rain per mile more from the east coast to the west...
    I've probably mentioned it before, but rain is recorded at Benmore and it once rained everyday for 110 days...even Noah can't beat that...;-)

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 06:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Mr. Voice...

    Did you mention rain...?

    England ain't got no rain... Scotland ain't got no rain... You just got some air humidity...

    We Patagonians got some PROPER rain...
    Just some 700km SSW from me humble shed..., in Guarello Island..., it rains about 310 days yearly some 7,300 mm...

    Can you beat that...?

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 06:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    Mr. Think...

    Is it populated though with towns and cities...?

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 06:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Juppp..., some Chilean masochists...

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Here in the south of the UK we have less rainfall than Lebanon. I always wondered why many Scots had pointed heads?

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I'm from the most easterly part of the UK and when I was growing up we had hosepipe bans every summer and the lawn used to turn brown and die. They told us we'd better start growing drought resistant plants, but it got wetter again since then.

    I wonder why anyone would choose to live in that place? May as well be under water.

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 06:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    Mr. Think...

    Those hills look almost familiar...
    Last dry day was Boxing Day and so I was straight up the hills for a walk...
    This pic was taken 2 miles from my home...

    I just love it...
    ...and the rain keeps most of the English tourists away...yay...;-)

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    It's very pretty in the sun. Are there really no tourists? I've only been up two mountains in Scotland and they were both crawling with other walkers despite the lousy weather.

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 07:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice


    Walkers follow the tourist hype...Munro's, Glen Coe, Fort William, Aviemore etc...
    Most hills are between two and three thousand feet and so is skipped and this is a ferry access or a road trip north then south...
    So most folk heading west go Lomond, Inveraray, Oban or Lomond, Glen Coe, Fort William...or Middle...through the Trossachs or East... Edinburgh, Perth, Inverness...
    they miss out on beautiful scenery and it keeps it quiet here...;-)

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 07:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    I've been as north as Aberdeen, but the wettest stay in Europe was at Chicksands in Bedfordshire. The streets were flooded at times and I had only one pair of uniform acceptable shoes, so my feet were constantly wet.

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Oh yes, you live on one of those funny-looking peninsulas (but not the one that's shaped like a dick). It's not actually that hard to get to according to google, might be a good place for the annual group holiday. Just need to remember to drive myself this time so I don't have to go back with my wussy friends when they decide to give up because it's cloudy on top of the mountain (not that I'm bitter or anything).

    Wow, you were unlucky! That is not normal at all. What time of year was it?

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 10:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Of all months, July and I only had a summer uniform. The locals and assigned crew were all astonished. Training there thankfully was indoors.

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Cycled around Voice's area quite a bit. The hill up by Tighnabruaich and the view from the top are quite memorable. When i was last there a coachful of pensioners like me drew up to admire the view. I thought why am I doing this? People in the café down tne bottom genuflected when they discovered where we were going on our bikes fully the Islay Jazz Festival! My friends up there always choose less well known routes up and down the mountains and we usually never encounter anyone except occasionally at the summits.

    Loch Eck! Very nice area, but rather cut off. One can do 40 miles offroad here on a MTB only 40 miles from London and never see a soul. We have nice little hills, steep and short.
    Its chucking it down right now. No summer water shortage ;-)

    Jan 02nd, 2018 - 10:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @The Voice:

    REF: How is the Pope some sort of mediator?

    Answer: Pl. try to ask the Bank of Vatican. They can [but won't] give you the facts and FIGURES (in millions)!

    Jan 03rd, 2018 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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