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Venezuela in conflict of powers: Maduro took office, but Guaidó shows as president while Venezuelans protest

Saturday, January 12th 2019 - 11:12 UTC
Full article 17 comments

It seemed sure that, starting January 10, Venezuela would experience high uncertainty. Nicolás Maduro swore in the presidency for the 2019-2015 government period in front of the Supreme Court of Justice (TSJ), when the constitution of that country dictates that it is before Parliament that the president must present the inauguration. Both the international community and the National Assembly (AN), declared in contempt by the Supreme Court, mark Maduro as an usurper. The illegitimacy of the president is discussed globally and Juan Guaidó is recognized as interim president of the Republic. Read full article

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  • DemonTree

    Strange. They recognised Castro as leader of Cuba, did they not? They recognise blatant dictators who don't even bother with elections,  so why are they treating Venezuela differently?

    Jan 12th, 2019 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Papa

    DemonTree Because country's Constitution. Cuban regime stands over rules that validates them as a soberan dictatorship, while in Venezuela there is a Democratic base written by Chavez himself in 1999's constituent reform.

    Jan 12th, 2019 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • imoyaro

    Come now, Kamerad/Komrade Rique, come now, denounce your own support for Dictatorship and murder.... oh, that's right you're a murderer on the lam...

    Jan 13th, 2019 - 03:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brasileiro

    The Isla Bonita...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpzdgmqIHOQ

    Jan 13th, 2019 - 04:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    (Reuters) - Brazil's government on Saturday issued a statement saying it recognized Venezuela's Congressional leader, who opposes President Nicolas Maduro, as the rightful president of Venezuela.

    Jan 13th, 2019 - 10:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Strange ? what is bothering you ? that Castro was recognized as the 'de-facto' leader of Cuba, while Maduro is no longer being seen as VZ's legitimate prez ? to me, it's pretty damned clear.....1959 vs. 2019.

    @imoyaro
    I'm pretty sure that “Papa” is some virulent offspring of Brasileiro, who obviously thinks Cuba is a paradise, all about song and dance....the thought is right on with his communist convictions, and his lousy English is “exactly” how an “ignorant” Brazilian would translate such a stupid text from Portuguese...

    If parts of the military in VZ, prompted by the possibility of amnesty if they break away from Maduro, do abandon him, he's a goner, but before that I think a bloody civil war might start.

    Jan 17th, 2019 - 07:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    They have recognised many other leaders after disputed elections, eg Hernández in 2017 in Honduras. I suppose in general they ignore irregularities if they like the results, and accept them if they don't care or don't think they can do anything about it. Only when they object to the outcome and also think pressure might have an effect will they make a fuss, as in Venezuela's case.

    Re 'Papa', he never said Cuba was a paradise, just that their dictatorship is enshrined in the constitution. And I would sound a lot more stupid and ignorant if I tried to write in Portuguese; language skills don't indicate general knowledge or intelligence.

    Jan 18th, 2019 - 11:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    In recent history, no one has equalled Maduro's foolhardiness and stubborness, while happily destroying his country. That's why he's the centre of attention.

    Considering that “Papa” (imo) is very likely an alias for “Brasileiro”, who immy below posted a video on 'how lovely' Cuba is, is what prompted me to say what I did.....you may believe that the fact “their dictatorship is enshrined in the constitution”, makes Cuba a democracy - I don't.
    Maduro's “democracy” is also enshrined in VZ's Consitution....he isn't breaking its laws...he invents new ones and / or changes them before that....

    When I mentioned “Papa's” translation, I was making two points...the main one, the political convictions which ooze from its contents, and two, the obvious (at least to me) connection to “Brasileiro” who, from past posts, has shown he expresses himself in the exact same way....and knowing the words a Brazilian, who does not speak the language and resorts to 'google' translations, would use, leads me to believe they are the one and same. I may be wrong....

    Changing the subject : 4 threads closed for comments before I could post a reply.....some recent, some old....any interest in reading them ?
    Probably not, as we'd just keep on disagreeing....(LOL)

    Jan 18th, 2019 - 04:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Assad has done far worse, and also attracted adverse attention from America.

    And of course a constitution doesn't turn a dictatorship into a democracy, but it's possible that it affects the view of the international community on whether a given government is legitimate or not. The fact Maduro felt it necessary to create the Constituent Assembly indicates to me that he is no longer operating within Vz's constitution.

    Anyway, sure Brasileiro thinks Cuba is a paradise, and it's possible Papa is the same person, but I wouldn't assume it. People who speak the same language or even similar ones make the same mistakes. Even you use some phrases which while not wrong, sound unusual to me - probably translated from Portuguese - and I've seen the various Spanish speakers around here using them too, or something very similar.

    And yeah, I'm interested to hear what you think at least about legalising drugs. Maybe there's not much more to say about the firings, up to you. I can't remember what the older ones were about, would have to look them up.

    I'm also curious what you think about this, but you can reply on that article if you're interested, this closing of threads is very annoying:

    http://en.mercopress.com/2019/01/18/evo-morales-bolivia-abiding-the-constitution-or-ensuring-the-results-of-sustained-economic-growth

    Jan 18th, 2019 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Using Assad as an example to justify Maduro, is hardly rational.

    A Constitution's just a useless piece of paper if the democratic principles it (supposedly) 'enshrines' aren't respected. If the int'l community recognizes a country’s govt that wilfully ignores what's written in it, what's the use ?
    And exactly, Maduro's Constituent Assembly was no more than a gimmick to legitimize his 'de-facto' dictatorship.

    Re Papa/Brasileiro, I said I might be wrong - but don't think so, at least friends… You're right, at times find myself writing in English as I'd express myself in Portuguese, but I doubt YOU would recognize these slip ups as being influenced by “Portuguese”. You'd have to be very familiar with both languages to see it. As to unusual sounding phrases, I've experienced that abroad, with other native English speakers, whose expressions/phrases can vary. Even some English friends here, express themselves in English as if speaking Portuguese. When speaking, or writing, u don't always have time to go back 'n correct things you know, instinctively, don't sound right.

    Re drugs : I’d legalize the ‘soft’ ones, like ‘marijuana’…probably largest nbr of consumers, sell it thru drugstore chains, with ‘quotas’ (as probably no worse/addictive than nicotine, besides having medicinal uses);
    Re crack ‘n other potent chemical mixtures, I’d clamp down hard. Same as cocaine/heroine (used in the past for medicinal purposes – not sure if still are), but they ruin the users’ health, besides making them potentially dangerous to other people, in that sh*t can happen while under the influence. And what separates alleged ‘recreational use’ from being addicted ? where does addiction start? who has to pay the bill to treat people who knowingly cause problems ? It needs a hell of a lot of ‘frank’ discussion.
    Re Morales, despite the sustained growth - good - one can see his dictatorial bent…to what extent 'n for how long are people willing to overlook this in the name of progress ?

    Jan 19th, 2019 - 04:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Wasn't trying to justify Maduro, just point out there are much worse dictators, many of whom the US is happy to recognise.

    “I doubt YOU would recognize these slip ups as being influenced by Portuguese”

    What else would it be? But since English has adopted a lot of Romance language vocabulary, either from French or directly from Latin, there's a horrible temptation when translating to use the related word, when often a simpler one would be better. It's a dead giveaway. Besides that I notice certain phrases in the stories translated from Spanish on MP, and from the Spanish-speaking commenters. And Portuguese is very similar to Spanish.

    Anyway, it's not obvious. Before you told me, I'd have guessed you grew up in some English speaking country and moved to Brazil later to work. Which language do you think in?

    As for the drugs, I want to be clear I don't think hard drugs are harmless, and don't want anyone free to buy them or try them. But one way or another you are going to pay for the addicts. If not by giving them the drugs, then in crimes they commit to raise money, in medical expenses when they overdose, and in police, court fees and jail because you made drugs illegal. And what we are doing isn't working. So I think we should try something else, basically treat addiction as a medical problem. Portugal has been doing it since 2001 and the results seem pretty good:

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it

    Re Morales, yes, you can see his dictatorial bent. It's a question of which is more important, growth or democracy? But there's no guarantee that a replacement would be any better. Did you notice that he also withdrew advertising from newspapers critical of him, which the article described as 'leaning on the press'?

    Jan 19th, 2019 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Well if you can recognize some of what I write, as being influenced by Portuguese, it's not surprising 'now' that you know my main other language IS Portuguese. If you had no idea that I lived in Brazil, I wouldn't be so sure.
    While calculating numbers, I think in English, anything else can be in either language....depends who's around me, or what I'm thinking abt.

    I know the taxpayer foots the bill for treating addicts, but from a “legalization” point of view, some things would have to be re-thought...what sense does it make to legally supply harmful drugs 'n expect society to pay the price of fixing it ? If an addict is drugged while committing a serious crime, it's seen as a mitigating factor...why ? the offender can't allege he wasn't aware of the possible (and likely) consequences. Similar to drunk driving, you know what can happen if you drink 'n drive.
    On the other hand - just a thought - why insist on treating addicts who always slide slide back after being cleaned-up ? or try to treat those who refuse to be ? why not let the drugs take their course ? Unless of course, the family wants to foot the bill...But I do see addiction as a medical problem, reason why I think tough measures should be taken to stamp it out...like any disease,starting with getting rid of all suppliers 'n middlemen...at any cost..
    Portugal's experience was unique, but shows tt unconventional methods can work.

    Re Morales, altho I think he believes he's indispensable, he should alternate power....If he's doing such a good job, 'n the majority feel that way about him, why would he have any trouble in electing his successor ? But he won't relinquish power, and has already torn up parts of the Consitution he doesn't like. I can't find reasons to praise him, but on the other hand, if he keeps a low profile internationally, and the Bolivians are willing to keep on re-electing him - without fraudulent elections - good for him. As for leaning on the press, I find that quite normal.

    Jan 19th, 2019 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “If you had no idea that I lived in Brazil”

    Well, yeah. I might have guessed a romance language, but not specifically Portuguese. But then it was really only when discussing Brazil that you said anything odd anyway, and that not very often. On the other hand, if you look at someone like EM there's plenty of evidence he's a Spanish speaker based on the mistakes he makes. At/to, in/on, and no/not, inconsistent use of pronouns and so on.

    Interesting that you have to do sums in English; I've heard that before, especially with times tables that are learned by rote. I wonder if deaf kids have problems learning mathematics, especially if they don't gain any language until after the normal age?

    I wish I could speak two languages, I'm jealous. It's so hard to learn one as an adult.

    RE addicts, what sense does it make to send someone to jail for a medical problem? If tough measures worked, then maybe they'd be preferable, but we've been fighting the war on drugs since long before I was born, with no sign of winning. And as for the cost, do you think it's the suppliers and middlemen who are paying? Everyone in Brazil is, afraid to go outside because of the shootouts and violence that increases year by year.

    You can't put the genie back in the bottle, society is going to pay one way or the other. That's why I'd like to try another option, as Portugal did. Their experience is only unique because no one else has had the courage to try it.

    As for Bolivia, Morales threw out the US DEA and legalised coca production in a limited way. They still have problems for sure, but nothing resembling the amount of violence Mexico has suffered with the opposite policy. I agree with you that Morales should alternate power, but I can't help thinking the blase attitude to leaning on the press, packing supreme courts etc in Latin America is a big reason leaders can get away with it and weaken democracy.

    Jan 20th, 2019 - 12:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Seems that there are certain things in the way people translate another languages to English that gives them away....if you're familiar with it, you recognize it right away.
    Funny, don't know if it's anything special, but in English I'm able to do two calculations 'simultaneously', by “storing” one calculation in the back of my mind while I do the 2nd, then use them to come to a 3rd result...(probably just has to do with memory and quite common). In Portuguese I can't 'concentrate' in the same way.

    I reckon everything must be harder for deaf kids, but not knowing any other (easier) way, they probably take it in their stride.

    Re addicts, if we agree jail is not the solution, then medical treatment has to be mandatory....no choice.
    No, the suppliers/middlemen don't share the cost, they're just profiting from it, and contributing to hundreds of 1000s of deaths per year , reason why I say they should be eliminated. Afaic, they've lost every/any right they ever had.
    And ok, if the situation has become untenable, the State needs to react with “intelligence”, and firepower. Various medical options might work with users (but not up to them to decide to be treated or not), but with the criminals there's only one way - put them away for good, or kill them, because if/when they get out, they'll go right back to trafficking.

    Bolivia's problems don't resemble Mexico's, because it has 'outsourced' or transferred the drug problem and the formation of 'cartels' to other countries.....which is why I believe, if Morales, or whoever is in power, is unwilling to clamp down on exporting death, other countries, i.e., US, Brazil, have the right to 'demand' changes, or to impose extremely damaging sanctions on him.

    Seems Bolivia might be heading down the same path VZ went....just depends on how “patriotic” Morales really is....he, and Maduro, have gone undermining the institutions until they are no more than puppets. And they claim it's democracy

    Jan 20th, 2019 - 10:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Yes, there are giveaways: Germans use very correct grammar that sounds overly formal, French speakers tend to stick extraneous 'the's in everywhere. Russians sometimes omit the verb 'to be' from a sentence. But I'm most familiar with Spanish, from this website and learning it myself. I assumed :o)) was Brazilian until he said otherwise, so I'm not that good at guessing (though there was one thing that made me doubt). But then I think you did too?

    I was told at uni that short term memory works by repetition, and Chinese speakers can remember more digits solely because their numbers are faster to say. Probably something similar is going on with remembering the interim result in your calculation. You must go back and reinforce it every few seconds or it will be lost, and meanwhile continue with the 2nd part. It's a lot of mental overhead, so not surprising that if you are just a bit less comfortable in another language you can't do it. But can you do sums in Portuguese at all? If I ask you what is vinte e quatro mais sessenta e sete, do you translate the numbers into English first, solve it, and then turn the answer back into Portuguese?

    Now I've run out of room to talk about drugs, so I'll put that on a different story.

    Jan 21st, 2019 - 12:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    When :o)) started posting, in view of his cartoons always satirizing Brazilian politics, I presumed he was Brazilian, and with good comprehension of English, despite the occasional awkwardness in the way he expressed himself. He apparently understood all my comments in Portuguese and/or Brazilian idiomatic expressions, which reinforced it.

    Now that you mention it, I do in fact go back 'every few seconds to reinforce it'....No, have no difficulty in doing basic math in Portuguese, but when it's more complicated I do translate the numbers first....perhaps my ease in English is related to something in my subconscious, to do with the fact that the first 10 years of math were in English ; in English, it seems that the the symbols (numbers) relate more to the 'quantity' they represent. Think it's basically what you're used to. Even when someone mentions 'miles', or pounds, which I'm perfectly familiar with, I find myself converting them to kms, kgs....the decimal system makes it easier to equate the measurement to the actual distance, weight...

    Jan 21st, 2019 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Yeah, I assumed :o)) was Brazilian for the same reason. At any rate he must understand Portuguese, and know a lot about Brazil or he wouldn't get the jokes in the cartoons he posts. But I noticed he always replied to your comments in English, and he posted early in the morning, which made me wonder. So eventually I asked him. I enjoy his posts anyway, even if I have to look up half the words. And he's so OTT cynical it's funny.

    Re guessing the native language, what do you make of this example from our company newsletter?

    “The rhythm that is considered as one of the main cultural manifestations of our country is one of the most touched in the southeast region.”

    And I know what you mean about having a feel - or not - for various weights and measures. If you tell me the temperature in Celsius I'll know whether it's hot or cold, but Farenheits don't mean anything to me. Unfortunately we use such a mishmash of scales in the UK that half the time I have no idea about any of them, but at least science is always in metric. It makes sense to me that you'd be more comfortable/familiar with English numbers if that's what you used in childhood; I'm slightly surprised you can do maths at all in a language you learned later. I wonder if you're quicker at mentally repeating numbers in English as opposed to Portuguese? That would allow you to juggle more in your head at once. In fact, judging by this research, it's almost certainly the case:

    https://sigarra.up.pt/fpceup/pt/pub_geral.show_file?pi_doc_id=16627

    Jan 21st, 2019 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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