MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Ten killed in school shooting in Sao Paulo: six children, two teachers and two attackers
Two armed men wearing face masks entered a Brazilian elementary school on Wednesday and shot and killed at least six children who were on their snack breaks, as well as two school officials, before fatally turning their guns on themselves, police said. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesThe two 'kids', 17 and 25 years old, ex-students of the school, planned the attack for over 1 year ; on their way to the school, they first made a stop at the used-car business/parking lot belonging to the eldest shooter's uncle, shot him, then drove on another 300 metres to the school, where they entered, and without warning just started to shoot whoever was within range.
Mar 15th, 2019 - 04:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When the cops arrived, having been called to check out the murder of the eldest shooter's uncle, they realized something was happening just down the road....when they arrived, the two shooters were dead, the youngest having killed the older one, then committed suicide.
Wonder when human rights will accuse the police of having killed the two, defenceless shooters...isn't that what usually happens here ? There are suspicions there's a third ex-student involved (in only the planning phase)...
@Jack Bauer
Mar 16th, 2019 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “Wonder when human rights will accuse the police of having killed the two, defenceless shooters”:
The BEST part of the story:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-G-IvmheWTzQ/TX49IloTpYI/AAAAAAAAFkg/T8HejvjylOg/s1600/stf-ganhou-fama.jpg
@JB
Mar 16th, 2019 - 01:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bet you they don't. What normally happens after school shootings is people demand tougher gun laws, or in America they want to arm teachers and put metal detectors on the school doors.
It's so sad, Brazil has enough problems with violence without adding school shootings too.
YET ANOTHER FUNERAL:
Mar 16th, 2019 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://i0.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Que-Vergona-STF-1.jpg?resize=768%2C561&ssl=1
@DT
Mar 16th, 2019 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just a rhetorical question, as that is what the vultures (HR) usually do....rush to defend the criminals. This time there were enough witnesses to say what happened.
But just one question : IF the police had arrived before the killers were dead, and seeing their victims dead and bleeding on the floor, how should the police have acted ? tried to catch them alive BECAUSE the police need to be concerned with killer's well-being, or have shot them on sight if they were holding a gun ? (and prepared to use it)...
Regarding the third kid (17 yrs old), he confessed (to the police) that he had helped in the planning, and that he was annoyed because he had not been called to take part in the massacre....and the judge saw no reason to hold him preventively, because there was “no” indication that he was potentially dangerous.....and told him to go home.
Well, I suppose he isn't dangerous, not until he tries the same thing.....the 'crazy' signs are there, but people prefer to ignore them....Then, “ah, if we had only realized he was nuts”...
“IF the police had arrived before the killers were dead, and seeing their victims dead and bleeding on the floor, how should the police have acted ?”
Mar 16th, 2019 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Depends on the situation. If they were still firing or had potential victims nearby, shoot them. If not and there was no immediate danger to anyone else, then (cautiously) try to persuade them to surrender.
”Regarding the third kid (17 yrs old), he confessed (to the police) that he had helped in the planning, and that he was annoyed because he had not been called to take part in the massacre“
What a moron. ”I never thought they were serious, it was just a way of letting off steam, I'd never really hurt anyone,“ is the obvious thing to say. And if he'd taken part he'd be dead. Idiotic.
”...and the judge saw no reason to hold him preventively, because there was “no” indication that he was potentially dangerous.....and told him to go home.”
Fucking what?! Is everyone in Brazil barking mad? Conspiracy to commit mass murder is a crime in itself, he should be in jail.
@Jack Bauer /@DemonTree
Mar 17th, 2019 - 09:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “ he was annoyed because he had not been called to take part in the massacre [!?!]....and the judge saw NO REASON to hold him [!?!]”:
REF: “there was “NO” INDICATION [!?!] that he was potentially dangerous.....and told him to go home [!?!]”:
Either I'm missing SOMETHING or His Majesty should have been accused of not letting a criminally insane [crime-minded-maniac] locked-up in a Lunatic-Asylum!
DT
Mar 18th, 2019 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”Depends on the situation......If not and there was no immediate danger to anyone else, then (cautiously) try to persuade them to surrender.”......
See ?
you think it would've been worthwhile trying to get them to surrender ...I don't. Just as well the younger one killed the older one and then committed suicide. No sympathy lost on those SOBs.
I believe that the 3rd kid will eventually make headlines, again...and the the judge who sent him home will allege there was no way of knowing he was dangerous....now that he has been identified, and people will not trust him, will isolate him and contribute to his emotional instability... If he does try to shoot anyone, it should be the f'g judge !
More than 20 years ago, a liberal, bleeding heart bishop (in RS I think) was on a TV programme , defending criminals...“society must try to understand them and set them on the right path, blah, blah, blah”....a few months later, he was abducted and raped, and left naked in some deserted region....quite a bit later, when he had recovered, the same TV programme interviewd him again, and he was asked how he thought criminals should be treated.....he was in favour of killing them....nothing like living it to be honest about your feelings...
@:o))
You have missed nothing.....it's unbelievable but true.
@JB
Mar 18th, 2019 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In the NZ shooting they made a couple of other arrests at the scene, and it turned out they were people who had gone and got their own guns to try and stop the shooter. Imagine if the police had shot them instead of arresting them.
Re the bishop, being forgiving is kind of his job. His reaction is understandable, but it's a little close to the criminals' attitude for comfort. I suppose most of them grow up with violence all around them, and their lack of morals has a similar origin. Everyone in Brazil is affected.
As for the 3rd kid, seems crazy. How was he identified, I though suspects under 18 generally stayed anonymous?
DT
Mar 19th, 2019 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re NZ, could've got messier.
“Being forgiving is kind of his job”....this 'turn the other cheek' attitude does not work...IMO.
Basically you've got to watch out for yourself, and someone who hurt you with the same nonchalance that they'd crush a slimy, albino cockroach, does not deserve sympathy.
3rd kid...think he was identified through social network postings. Minors do not remain anonymous, (if taken alive) just cannot have their faces shown publicly. I think people have the right to see his face and know who the little shit is...but the law, says we need to 'protect' the little bastards, who at 17 'still' don't know what they are doing.....that's the reason why the drug gangs use minors to carry out a lot of missions - they cannot be prosecuted, and at the worst they may go to juvenile reformatory until they turn 18. The exceptions to this are when they are responsible for really heinous crimes... and in these cases, will most likely be transferred to prison for another 10, 20 years, after they are 18.
“this 'turn the other cheek' attitude does not work...IMO”
Mar 19th, 2019 - 08:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's what the Bible says, not that too many Christians follow it.
“someone who hurt you with the same nonchalance that they'd crush a slimy, albino cockroach, does not deserve sympathy.”
Wouldn't you hurt the criminals with that same nonchalance, though? Even the kids? D'you think you could kill them yourself if you were attacked?
“Minors do not remain anonymous”
That surprises me, and the only article I could find didn't name him. While I agree with treating minors differently to adults, it's certainly not protecting them if it means they get exploited by gangs and introduced to more serious crimes. Sounds like the law needs a rethink, with stiffer penalties both for minors and the adults who send them on 'missions'.
DT
Mar 19th, 2019 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Quite frankly, in this case I'm not too concerned with what the Bible says...
Just a minute, you are inverting the roles.....without a crime there's no criminal.....who first committed the crime ? the criminal, or me ? You think it's wrong to want revenge ? Why should I go easy on a criminal after they commit a heinous crime ? (that might or might not affect me).
If I were attacked, and it was either me or them that's going to get killed, you can bet I'll do all I can to make sure it's them, every time. It's a matter of understanding that they are not going to spare you just because you are a nice guy....you are your last resort.
You are right, the minor's name has not been mentioned, but his father's has, and everyone connected in any way to the school knows who he is. The judge finally came to his senses and has sent to 17 year old to a juvenile detention centre.
@Jack Bauer
Mar 20th, 2019 - 10:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “Why should I go easy on a criminal after they commit a heinous crime”
TRUE!
Many a times the justice does NOT prevail - hence the militia [official (unifarmed) & unofficial] is in demand!
REF: “The judge finally came to his senses”:
Considering that it was just a misdemeanor [according to him], SURELY, you mean at the “bar” [pun intended] where he came to his senses [or whatever is left of it]!
REF: “sent the 17 year old to a juvenile detention centre”:
The RIGHT place, where he can be well-trained into a thorough professional!
“in this case I'm not too concerned with what the Bible says”
Mar 20th, 2019 - 11:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0You're not a bishop. ;)
“who first committed the crime ? the criminal, or me ?”
The criminal. But with the death squads, that may not be the case. Killing kids just for living on the streets, or committing non-violent crimes like shoplifting, is a much bigger crime. And I don't think it's wrong to want revenge, but I DO think it's bad for society. A lot of the drug-gang murders are for revenge, and they're indiscriminate about who they kill, not caring if innocent bystanders get hurt, either. The cops killed off duty are most likely for revenge too - you agree that's wrong?
Killing in self defence is fine and necessary, but killing for revenge is not. What's needed is justice, which is hard to get in Brazil, but revenge just makes things worse and spreads the violence.
Glad to know the would-be school shooter isn't roaming free, but unfortunately I doubt the juvenile detention centre will do much to help him psychologically or change his mind.
@DemonTree
Mar 20th, 2019 - 03:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “juvenile detention centres”:
I've heard that they are the training grounds for graduating to hard-boiled professional criminals and their numbers are increasing by leaps & bounds.
That brings us to the other questions: For Example:
What's the use of bureaucracy-free travelling to Brazil [with NO Visa-Restrictions]; IF:
- normal tourists are attacked/robbed/exploited in Brazil?
- the crooks [from the chosen countries] have a free-hand in entering/hiding in Brazil?
“I've heard that they are the training grounds for graduating to hard-boiled professional criminals and their numbers are increasing by leaps & bounds.”
Mar 21st, 2019 - 11:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0Me too, and not only in Brazil. I've heard that in our jails terrorists and would be terrorists are converting/radicalising the ordinary criminals. What are we supposed to do about that? Keep them in solitary for their whole sentence? The funding cuts to jails definitely don't help.
DT
Mar 21st, 2019 - 04:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Me : “who first committed the crime ? the criminal, or me ?”
You : “The criminal. But with the death squads, may not be the case. Killing kids just for living on the streets, or committing non-violent crimes like shoplifting, is a much bigger crime”.
Sounds a lot like what came first, the chicken or the egg ? Without criminals, there'd be no death squad, or people taking the law into their own hands...let's agree that entering crime is a choice, 'n what happens after - being imprisoned, killed - are the consequences.
As to “kids just 'living' on the street”, or “committing non-violent crimes like shop-lifting” doesn't cut it. These kids live on the streets because they've decided to leave home (or whatever they lived in) 'n will commit almost any crime they need to inorder to survive, which includes violently assaulting innocent poeople and/or killing them....and 'shoplifting', without the guarantee that it cannot turn into extreme violence, in the attempt to escape ....you seem determined to find excuses for them...to those who defend them, I say, take a couple to live with you...try to put them on the right track...study...or work...good luck !
Revenge may be 'bad for society', but when you are personally affected, how ready are you to forgive, for the 'good of society' ? The drug gangs, as long as they are only killing each other, let them....but when innocent people get in the way, the police must, and do, intervene...isn't that their job ?
Cops who are targeted specifically because they might form part of a militia, or a gang, probably get what they deserve, but many are killed at random, just because they are cops.
In Brazil, when Justice does not work - police arresting criminals, judges freeing them - sometimes revenge becomes the way to sort things out. Simple reality here. Laws alone, won't change this.
“..doubt the juvenile detention centre will do much..”. Exactly, recuperating them is virtually impossible...but there is a solution...
“These kids live on the streets because they've decided to leave home”
Mar 21st, 2019 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh, come on. Kids don't go and live on the street unless they have serious problems at home. And if they're willing to use 'extreme violence' to escape, then maybe no on should be trying to stop them except the police. Money isn't worth your life.
Sure there'd be no death squad without criminals, but the death squads are criminals too. If entering crime is a choice, they too should be punished for their crimes.
Are there no organisations that try to help the street kids or turn young people away from crime? Seems strange when it's such a huge problem for Brazil.
“Revenge may be 'bad for society', but when you are personally affected, how ready are you to forgive, for the 'good of society' ?”
I suspect I would want revenge. But I don't have to act on all my desires.
“the police must, and do, intervene...isn't that their job ?”
If the police do their job according to the law, that's not revenge, that's justice. This is the sort of thing I mean by revenge:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-29925260
“In Brazil, when Justice does not work”
That's what I'd like to see a politician promising: to make justice work. They all promise more cops, more army, more guns. What's really needed is more investigators, honest judges, and prisons that aren't too overcrowded to control. Plus better education/support for poor kids in the cities to get real jobs instead of joining gangs.
A civil war between the gangs and the police is not the solution.
@DemonTree
Mar 22nd, 2019 - 07:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “In Brazil, when Justice does not work”
How wrong could you be?
Of course, it DOES work!
Haven't you noticed the Nº of Crooks left scot-free, enjoying Absolute Freedom +special privileges +benefits +incentives + the joy of getting re-elected + with the opportunities of go on stealing from the public funds?
And by mistake [of course] if one lordship arrests; the other promptly releases the crooks overnight? What example of coherence - better than this kind of efficiency - would be acceptable to you?
MT&Co was permitted to steal uninterruptedly [only for 40 years]! How else do you justify it; if law didn't work?
And NOW:
http://www.chargeonline.com.br/php/DODIA//mariano.jpg
DT
Mar 22nd, 2019 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh C'mon ! “Kids don't go 'n live on the street unless they have serious problems at home”..
Not always...perhaps the desire to have what their parents can't give them, 'n the impatience to get it - by any means, usually crime - is was causes the problem. What they perceive as 'glamour' to be a gang-leader, albeit usually short-lived, can attract them more than studying. I don't agree that they are all just 'victims of society', which is the usual fallacious argument presented by HR activists. There is ALWAYS a choice.
“And if they're willing to use 'extreme violence' to escape, then maybe no one should be trying to stop them except the police. Money isn't worth your life”
“I” know that....but tell that to a poor guy who just had his cellphone that cost 2 month's salary, ripped out of his hand....the police tell victims not to react, but many do.
People here have still to reach the stage in which they realize what is really important in life...maybe in 50 years ?
“but the death squads are criminals too. If entering crime is a choice, they too should be punished for their crimes”....yes they are - but they are one of the “consequences” of crime, not the cause - and when/if caught, they are punished.
Besides the juvenile detention centers (which are far from ideal), suppose there are some NGOs that try to deal with the problem, but I think that the kids would need to realize for themselves that they need help, if they want to change.
To take the law into your own hands only depends on how seriously you've been affected. Easy to speculate but in practise yr reaction could be very different.
What is a cop's option when he is being shot at ?
Well, it seems you are realizing that crime IS a very serious issue here, and society reacts in the only way it can, given the lack of public security and legal infrastructure.
My solution would not be civil war etc...but when caught, life imprisonment without parole, could be. No use being “trained” on the 'inside'.
I can imagine kids join gangs for the perceived glamour, but living on the street is a lot more drastic. Anyway, it's true people have a choice, but we make that choice based on our environment. It's the same as the Brazilian politicians, I wonder which have impoverished the country more?
Mar 22nd, 2019 - 07:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0““I” know that....but tell that to a poor guy who just had his cellphone that cost 2 month's salary, ripped out of his hand....the police tell victims not to react, but many do.”
I suppose it's hard to remember/not react in the moment. And 2 months' salary? Is it just that salaries are so much lower in Brazil, or are iPhones more expensive?
“when/if caught, they are punished”
Since they have so many ties with the police, I bet that doesn't happen very often.
“I think that the kids would need to realize for themselves that they need help, if they want to change.”
And they don't know anything else, so how can they? You said I should take a couple to live with me; a crazy idea, but I wonder if they would act differently in a completely different environment, with no gangs around, or whether they'd be too fucked up already.
“Easy to speculate but in practise yr reaction could be very different.”
Yeah, you never really know until you're in that situation. But normal people don't generally get chance to take revenge anyway.
If you want to imprison people for life, you've got to catch and convict them first. Seems to me that's a weak link in Brazil. Even most murders remain unsolved, let alone muggings and carjackings. A LOT more people are willing to commit crimes if they know they'll get away with it.
DT
Mar 23rd, 2019 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Living in a hut on a hillside, without plumbing or sanitation can't be much better than sleeping in the streets (like the homeless do).
Right, you make yr choices based on UK reality, I make mine - and so do our politicians, criminals - based on Brazil's. With a population that is generally too ignorant, incapable of uniting by the millions for a common cause, allows most politicians to pull the wool over their eyes 'n get away with it.
It's not uncommon to see relatively poor people with expensive cellphones, financed over 24 months with unfair interest rates....but to them, it's a priority. When they get robbed, it's a personal tragedy.
“Since they have so many ties with the police, I bet that doesn't happen very often”.
Don't know how many that are denounced are actually punished but afaik, those who were part of death squads didn't get off too easily....but unfortunately corporatism does exist.
A kid who gets up to his neck in crime, 'n runs a high risk of getting killed, might realize it's not what he signed up for, and look for a way to get out....probably not many, but in what other scenario would they look for help ? what I'm saying is that it's unlikely they'll decide to become 'good' kids, so any help offered will be most likely be rejected.
They might react differently in a completely different environment, depends how far gone they are already, 'n if they feel they can trust you, but the possiblity of such a change of environment in Brazil is virtually non-existent.
A person's upbringing will probably determine how they might try to get revenge.....if in a slum, their idea of revenge might be to kill, if well-educated, seeing justice being done might be enough...presuming it works.
I am considering the options presuming the criminals ARE caught, otherwise there's no point in discussing it. By putting them away for life, they are no longer society's 'direct' problem, and any 'in-house' training will be useless.
“Living in a hut on a hillside...”
Mar 23rd, 2019 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There's a world of difference. Safer, has privacy, somewhere to put your stuff, a bed to sleep in, probably somewhere to cook and wash even if you have to fetch the water, not to mention protection from the elements. No one willingly lived on the street even long before the invention of plumbing and electricity.
“It's not uncommon to see relatively poor people with expensive cellphones”
Can understand that. They most likely have no home phone, no computer to access the internet, no GPS device, no other camera or backups of the photos they've taken. Smartphones do so many jobs, it's a hell of a lot to lose all at once. In Argentina we had no data and even phone calls didn't work - which you'd think would render phones mostly useless - yet we still used them all the time. (Amusingly, when we drove into Chile our phones connected the second we crossed the border, with free data service, and the road went from unpaved to paved, with proper signs, street lamps etc. A few miles down the road, it turned back to unpaved, the cell service disappeared, and that was that.) But for poor people, losing their phone must be much more disastrous, and of course harder to replace.
“A kid who gets up to his neck in crime, 'n runs a high risk of getting killed, might realize it's not what he signed up for, and look for a way to get out”
Y'know, I think that's why those schemes I mentioned posted 'councilors' in hospitals. To talk to the criminals at a time when they'd just confronted their own mortality, and might be more open to re-evaluating their life choices. It's always said that people have to want to be helped, but I'm guessing leaving crime isn't so straightforward even for those who do want to get out.
“if in a slum, their idea of revenge might be to kill”
People in the slum likely don't see a lot of justice being done. If they felt they could rely on the police, courts, etc to be on their side, they might change their minds.
DT
Mar 23rd, 2019 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“There's a world of difference. Safer, has privacy, somewhere to put your stuff, a bed to sleep in, probably somewhere to cook and wash even if you have to fetch the water, not to mention protection from the elements”.
You make it sound quite nice...utopia. I'm not excluding the possibility of overwhelming problems at home for kids leaving, but the bad influence of their general surroundings (crime) has a lot to do with it.
“They most likely have no home phone”.....Very true, Landlines here were always very expensive and took a long time to be installed (2,3,4 years), and only became freely available after the State monopoly was broken and the system was privatized about 20 years ago....this coincided with the advent of cellphones in Brazil, and although expensive, the only obstacle was the price. Landlines are down to about 37 million while there are over 230 million cellphones
Ok, trying to convince a criminal (specially a kid) to abandon crime when he is most vulnerable could work, but the problem is, will his gang let him leave ? Can the State protect him ? what can it offer him ? the sheer volume of such problems here, far larger than the UK has ever known, is what makes such solutions impractical. Here, once in - and many times coerced to it - it is impossible to leave, and live.
The slums are dominated by crime....people are afraid to speak, so in practise they are helping the gangs. When the police goes into a slum and shootouts begin - almost inevitable, and always started by the criminals defending their turf - there is nearly always bound to be colateral damage......the criminals hide out in their strongholds, so how is the police supposed to 'try' to capture them ?
Under the current circumstances, I'm sure the police would welcome some practical, effective, financially viable alternatives....until then, it is just one aspect of Brazil's reality, and is being dealt with as it can...a bit like drying ice, but what else can they do ?
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