Former Brazilian President Michel Temer was arrested on Thursday on corruption charges, a dramatic development in a sprawling corruption probe that has roiled Brazil has showed no sign of slowing. Read full article
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Wow, I was starting to think it was never gonna happen.Mar 21st, 2019 - 04:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@DemonTreeMar 21st, 2019 - 10:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I'm sorry but I'm unable to fathom your bliss!
This really is such sad news!
1st; These crooks encouraged to STEAL public-funds
2nd; They are permitted to KEEP the stolen wealth
3rd: As if that is not enough, more funds are WASTED in the investigations, trials & to keep the crooks in the Five-Star Prison [for a few months/years ONLY]!
A sad news, pathetic indeed - but not for the daffy/dotty:
DT (Contn of Bolsonaro points to Carnival...)Mar 22nd, 2019 - 07:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
No. This wasn't ancient history, it was the 70s…Sorry, not clear to me, d’you mean that the UK was only considered safe after 1970 ? (if so, that is mol the time-frame I had in mind).
”Those methods still used today (Guantanamo bay, 'enhanced interrogation' etc). But they did NOT reduce the violence, they made it worse”
So the same methods, in use since the 70s, haven’t helped reduce violence ? By the “Good Friday Agreements” (‘98), presume you’re referring to IRA violence….because if so, had nothing to do with organized or common street crime, the problem in Brazil.
And you believe draconian policing perpetuates violence, that it’s not effective…
Perhaps not in the UK, where you were dealing with a totally different problem to Brazil. The fact there is “no lack of manpower” has nothing to do with “draconian” policing….the reason there are plenty of crime candidates is because of the lack of social options…the result of the shitty structure of Brazilian society, lack of education, ‘n other basic services which might guarantee a decent mode of survival other than resorting to crime.
You never said “after all, they can't be as bad as you (JB) make them to be” - I was simply presuming how you might react, because you believe criminals “here” are recoverable. I don’t think so...the great majority of those who go to prison, go right back to crime the moment they are set free. “…if they attract the attention of ex-cops/cops, and run the risk of getting killed, why don't they change their ways ?” I think, again, because of lack of options…a 10, or 12 year old who goes into crime, has already abandoned school, ‘n is unlikely to turn back.
WCCs who usually have a College education, don't get thrown into the general prison population ; ex-cops are usually incarcerated in military prisons, provided they weren’t dishonorably discharged, as putting them with the general population would mean certain death.
d’you mean that the UK was only considered safe after 1970 ?Mar 22nd, 2019 - 11:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
No, after 98 (well, kinda: there was still the Real IRA and in 2005 the Islamic terrorists took over). There were still frequent bomb attacks while I was growing up, and lots of murders in NI. But the UK police and army using draconian (sometimes abusive) methods was most concentrated in the 70s.
And yes, I'm referring to IRA (and Loyalist) violence, but in fact the terrorists on both sides were involved in organised crime - drugs, extortion etc - in order to fund themselves (and the remains of those groups still are). I know it's not on the same scale as Brazil, but it was a lot closer than ordinary crime in Britain, and so was the response to it - sending in the army to help the police, suspending normal rights, trigger happy soldiers. And it was not effective.
The fact there is “no lack of manpower” has nothing to do with “draconian” policing
It means killing the criminals won't work, because there are always more to take over. It's the 'lack of social options' that needs fixing, I guess. Something else to mention about NI is how much money it gets from Westminster and (currently) the EU. The Troubles trashed the economy, and rebuilding it has been and continues to be very important to the peace process. There's a special EU fund which AFAIK they are planning to continue for a while after Brexit, because they're afraid of what will happen if the money is cut off suddenly. I suspect the poor areas in Rio don't have anything like that.
You never said...
Glad to hear it! I didn't remember saying it, or think that I would. And you've answered your own question: they can't easily give up crime because of lack of options. Plus, their friends and associates are likely to drag them back in if they try.
ex-cops ... as putting them with the general population would mean certain death.
I suspected as much. It would be one way of making them talk, but probably illegal.
DTMar 23rd, 2019 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
As I thought, you were referring to terrorism, not common street or organized crime. If drugs were a side-line in order to fund their movements, it was never in the scale of, or as significant as a way of life for hundreds of thousands (as in Bzl).
And it was not effective....and how can you conclude that any other method - if never tested - would've been MORE effective ?....and how do you know that without draconian policing things would not have gotten much worse ? No way of knowing.
Again, It means killing the criminals won't work, because there are always more to take over, sounds rather defeatist........why does it NOT work ? May not as a long term, ideal solution, but what do you do in the meantime, while there are thousands out there dying for a chance to join and live off violent crime ? What's the immediate alternative ?
Just because there are always more to take over, or others to take their place ? I presume you are implying a feasible solution would be to suddenly move all the others into a situation whereby they would abandon crime and become honest citizens...how do you compensate the criminals to convince them to abandon crime ? is that your idea of a solution ? and if so, how long would it take to implement...and where do you start, considering the current state of affairs ?
I suspect the poor areas in Rio don't have anything like that......you hit the nail on the head, which is just one reason why the solutions presented in the UK to solve its problems, have nothing similar in Brazil. The UK & BZL are too different socially speaking to simply think that solutions to those problems in the UK, would work in Brazil.
As I've said b4, it does boil down to It's the 'lack of social options' that needs fixing, I guess.
Right on, but that does not happen overnight....and definitely not here.
..would be one way of making them talk,”...without a doubt, but it is illegal. But I don't think HRs would be too worried
how can you conclude that any other method - if never tested - would've been MORE effective ?....and how do you know that without draconian policing things would not have gotten much worse ?Mar 23rd, 2019 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Because after they introduced those measures, the violence got worse. And after the Good Friday agreement, it fell dramatically. For sure it's not a perfect parallel to Brazil, but there are plenty of other countries suffering high violence that we could learn from.
May not as a long term, ideal solution, but what do you do in the meantime
So the social options are the long term solution, but in the short term you could try the kinds of programs I linked to before, and/or increased funding for the civil police and forensics, with a big push to increase the percentage of crimes solved. You could even try a different measure in each city, to see which ones work the best. And a handout from the EU isn't impossible, they do give foreign aid.
I don't think HRs would be too worried
They ought to object, but who knows.
REF: Former President Michel Temer is arrested:Mar 24th, 2019 - 02:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0
The current president may NOT have similar fate since, at least she has a strong support of the intellectuals
DTMar 24th, 2019 - 06:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Because after they introduced those measures, the violence got worse.....and if they hadn't introduced those measures, do you really believe violence woudn't have escalated ? that the IRA would have voluntarily backed down because they faced little resistance from government ? I find that when the State is weak, violence and crime get worse....just look at Rio...over 20 years of a corrupt, inefficient government allowed crime to become a State within a State. But then again, being two completely different realities, PERHAPS the IRA would have become less violent...I don't know, but I don't think so...the most primitive reaction is kill your enemy when they show signs of weakness.
...So the social options are the long term solution,...... looks like it...and that's me being optimistic.
but in the short term you could try the kinds of programs I linked to before.....excuse my pessimism, but we are talking of (again) two completely different types of criminals....those here feel they have little to lose - like islamic terrorists who are willing to blow themselves up - so to get them to the negotiating table is slightly more difficult.
and/or increased funding for the civil police and forensics, with a big push to increase the percentage of crimes solved.....that would be a big step in the right direction....but it depends on the goodwill of the politicians and on plenty of funds....things in dire shortage nowadays.
When a cop is killed, even off duty (an intended target ?), or randomly, the HR's NEVER appear....their business is to guarantee the criminal's physical integrity.
I don't think the IRA would have backed down if the government hadn't take those measures, but they probably wouldn't have escalated either. It depends what the police/army tried instead.Mar 24th, 2019 - 09:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
the most primitive reaction is kill your enemy when they show signs of weakness.
Wanting revenge on someone who hurts you is also a primitive reaction. But using extreme measures that suspend the rule of law is already a sign of weakness; if the government was keeping on top of crime, they wouldn't need to.
those here feel they have little to lose
Some of the jailed IRA members went on hunger strike and several starved themselves to death. In Brazil the criminals are quick to kill, are they really so willing to die? I wonder if the big gangs would be willing to negotiate? I'm sure it would be unpopular - conceding defeat - but it might actually reduce violence if all else fails. The lack of money certainly does not help, even in the UK violent crime is rising due to police cuts.
”When a cop is killed, even off duty (an intended target ?), or randomly, the HR's NEVER appear”
Aren't they concerned with abuse of authority, not murder in general? Therefore they should turn up when police are arrested, to ensure their rights, but not for every murder.
If Brazil so far has not reached the Ungovernable Stage; isn't the country - perhaps - heading towards it?Mar 25th, 2019 - 09:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0
DTMar 25th, 2019 - 06:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Re the IRA etc, everyone has the right to their opinion, but it's easy to criticize with hindsight...when circumstances demand swift action, how sure can you be of the result ?
Wanting revenge on someone who hurts you is also a primitive reaction
I don't think that wanting revenge is primitive (in the sense of 'primitive' peoples), but then again it depends what happened, as the extent of the reaction depends on the action...in any case, I disagree with turning the other cheek.
And what cases are you refering to when you said using extreme measures that suspend the rule of law is already a sign of weakness ? I have my thoughts on that but I'll wait for your answer.
if the government was keeping on top of crime, they wouldn't need to....and how easy is it to keep on top of crime ? with millions committing crimes 'n only tens of thousands to combat it, it's not an easy task.....unless of course you have a police state...like the USSR. Once caught that's the end.
I don't think criminals in Brazil want to die (not like suicide bombers) but they know they have a short life expectancy, 'n are willing to do anything to live to the hilt....or die. If a person can snuff out a life at the blink of an eyelid, I would say they have a very different view on the value of human life, as compared to you 'n me.
The leaders of criminal factions, all with well over 100,000 members, would never consider negotiating surrender.....first of all, they are not concerned with violence, or killing innocent people, and second, it would be seen as a sign of weakness that would get them killed.
By the fact that HRs only appears to guarantee the criminals, it is obvious that they are only concerned with (what they consider) abuses against criminals...always labelled as abuse of authority , or excessive force, without knowing what happened before... the fact they ignore dead cops 'n their families, says it all...only criminals have 'rights, cops have obligations.
@Jack Bauer / @DTMar 26th, 2019 - 07:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0
REF: unless of course you have a police state - like the USSR
Maybe, the Police-State in Russia is not[!?!] as corrupt?
@:o))Mar 26th, 2019 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Maybe, the Police-State in Russia is not[!?!] as corrupt?
Just as corrupt, except there it was official....for the top dogs.
I don't think that wanting revenge is primitiveMar 26th, 2019 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
It's a lot older than turning the other cheek. Even when it said 'an eye for an eye' in the Bible, the point was to take ONLY an eye.
And what cases are you refering to when you said “using extreme measures
I was thinking of exactly the UK government's response to the violence in NI, and also extraordinary rendition and Guantanamo Bay. Seventeen years after the start of the 'War on Terror', there's still 40 inmates there, mostly because the US has can't decide what to do with them. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
I don't think criminals in Brazil want to die but they know they have a short life expectancy, 'n are willing to do anything to live to the hilt....or die.
I guess so. As for surrender, that's not what I was suggesting, but making a bargain with them, like the Mayor of San Salvador in this article that :o)) posted:
That would be the absolute last resort, though.
Something else from Belfast you could try is Peace Walls (really):
By the fact that HRs only appears to guarantee the criminals
That's why I asked if they turned up when cops are arrested, since the cops should have rights in that situation.
@Jack BauerMar 26th, 2019 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
REF: Just as corrupt, except there it was official - for the top dogs
Shouldn't BR follow such good modus operandi - examples [or vice versa] depending who has the latest tech?
DTMar 28th, 2019 - 08:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
So you think the UK government's response to violence in NI was extreme, in that it was wrong ? Can't really judge as never followed events all that closely....but seems violence was the result of the Catholics' resentment against Britain's policies in NI.
And, being a politically-motivated struggle, not a street crime/ drugs issue, to solve it would require a different approach.
Presuming the cause in NI was 'legitimate', and that its leaders were in it for the long haul, trying to free their country from what they saw as oppression - ‘n with the prospect of living to reap the rewards - would make finding common ground, easier. Britain wasn't dealing with a bunch of ignorant, ruthless individuals with no regard for their's 'n other's lives.
Why tear the 'Peace Walls' down ? (let the residents decide)
The drug gangs in Rio have no long term objective, or ‘noble’ cause which they can expect to win… their objective today, tomorrow, is dealing in drugs 'n the power it gives them, so what is there to negotiate ? allow them to go about their activity in peace ? going easier on them ? wouldn’t work – would just be seen as weakness and the opportunity to grow.
Re Guantanamo Bay. 17 years after…..the US has can't decide what to do with them. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence…
Don't know what it has to do with 'inspiring confidence', but as releasing them is not an option, what's the alternative ? execute them ?
Re El Salvador, just a note : It says it was the leftist govt of El Salvador that most resembled the militaristic Bolsonaro anti-crime strategy in 2018 ... in 2018 ?
Have I misunderstood, or is the report mistaken ? Anyway, in El Salvador (kinda smaller than Brazil) the problem had a political component (Nayib Bukele, ex-FLMN guerrilla), giving room for negotiation (imo).
Article also mentions the FARC in Colombia – they negotiated their surrender - which was not complete - and the ELN filled the empty spaces..
seems violence was the result of the Catholics' resentment against Britain's policies in NIMar 28th, 2019 - 11:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Yeah, so if they had looked at that instead of trying to clamp down, it might have worked out a lot better. But yeah, it's not the same. There are more parallels with the FARC than with Brazil, but I don't know the crime in El Salvador had a political component. As for the article, I presumed they expressed it the wrong way round; that B's strategy most resembled the one El Salvador used last year. Guess violence cuts across the political spectrum.
As for the peace walls, seems they still need them for now. But they can hardly be a permanent solution. Seems kind of ridiculous, really.
Re Guantanamo Bay, they could take them to the US and prosecute them. Supposing there's enough evidence, they have the death penalty. But I don't know if they can, because their 'crimes' probably weren't committed there.
their objective today, tomorrow, is dealing in drugs 'n the power it gives them, so what is there to negotiate ?
They want to get rich, they don't want to die or go to jail, so offer to ignore drug crimes if they cut down the violence and/or confine it to certain areas? In particular, to try and reduce ordinary people being affected.
@DemonTreeMar 29th, 2019 - 10:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
REF: The drug gangs in RJ have no long term objective, or ‘noble’ cause which they can expect to win:
Pl. name 1 single country which won a War-on-Drugs permanently PLUS eradicated Drug-Supply/Demand.
...Mar 30th, 2019 - 12:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0
DTMar 30th, 2019 - 04:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
The FARC started off as a political movement, then got involved in drugs to finance its operations, so theoretically, if the drug trade is not the ultimate objective, there might be room to negotiate a truce, through politics, not force. In Brazil, the drug gangs have no other options, far less going into politics. But that doesn't mean the gangs don't finance politicians in exchange for favors.
What happened in El Salvador in 2018 has nothing to do with B's strategy as he took over in 2019, 'n what kind of negotiating would be possible to convince the gangs to give up a multimillionaire business ?
Re Guantanamo, prosecute them ? for what, some bleeding heart jury to let them off ? Almost like if we let them go, they'll see how good we are 'n they won't try to kill us - I've heard enough of that crap....Regarding a fast growing crime in Brazil : men killing their partners /ex-partners ...couple of days ago, another case...what's unbelievable is that despite a restraining order issued 1 year ago, the woman reported continued aggressions, but nothing happened....2 days ago she was killed....my point : treating criminals nicely, solves nothing.
None of the Guantanamo inmates are innocent, or have been jailed unfairly (imo), 'n I believe that they no right to a trial...there is nothing a terrorist can allege that excuses his actions. Afaic, where their crimes were committed is irrelevant.
They want to get rich, they don't want to die or go to jail, so ..... Can you hear yourself ?
Offer to cut down killings ? what, instead of quota of 100 deaths per day, only 20 ? and confine it to certain areas ? 1st, what guarantee is there it will remain confined, and 2nd, how can the State condone a 'smaller' illegal drug trade ? And that's not even considering the common, violent street crime...or will every criminal belong to a gang 'n follow its leader's orders?
A solution ? legalize drugs, and make the users /addicts 100% responsible for their actions.