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Brazilian appeals court releases ex president Michel Temer: insufficient evidence for a “preventive” jailing

Tuesday, March 26th 2019 - 06:58 UTC
Full article 32 comments

Brazilian appeals court judge on Monday released former President Michel Temer from jail following his high-profile arrest on graft charges last week, which marked a fresh landmark in the country’s battle against political corruption. Read full article

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  • DemonTree

    I love that picture, it makes him look so shifty.

    Mar 26th, 2019 - 10:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    “Judge Ivan Athié of the TRF-2 federal appeals court said in his ruling that the evidence provided by investigators did not justify the “preventive” jailing of Temer and seven other defendants, including former minister Wellington Moreira Franco”.

    Well, Athie's definition of evidence is definitely different to most people's.
    Not surprising really, considering that in 2001 he was accused of stelionate ('n removed from office)...things weren't looking too good for him until in 2008 Gilmar Mendes cleaned his slate / reinstated him....sounds like an expression of gratitude towards the “old political system”.
    His decisions were usually polemic, but according to “O Globo”, when he released the ex-president of Eletronuclear (imprisoned due to L J charges), he compared bribes to tips - he is reported to have said “We need to start reviewing these invesigations, now everything is bribery - isn't it time to admit that part of this money is 'only' a bonus, a tip ?” WTF ??? have I missed something ? have the laws against coruption been altered ?

    Now, regarding Temer, his excuse is “You have here old facts, involving possibly illegal acts, but no evidence of repeated criminality after 2016 or any other factor that justifies preventive imprisonment”
    Really ? so his taped conversation with Temer, in which Temer, as president, confirms it's a good idea for Joesley Batista (JBS) to keep on paying Cunha (already jailed) to keep his mouth shut, is not proof of corruption ?

    Mar 26th, 2019 - 03:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    REF: “appeals court releases ex president”:

    Increasingly Thrilling+Suspenseful Soap-Opera = Nero's fiddling [twits] while “Rome” is poised to get worse:

    https://i0.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/genildo-tora.jpg?resize=768%2C564&ssl=1

    Mar 26th, 2019 - 08:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    That's spectacularly bad even for Brazil. Sounds like exactly what :o)) is always saying: they're trying to legalise corruption. But what on earth is 'stelionate'?

    As for Temer, totally agree. That was him blatantly trying to obstruct justice, and if preventive imprisonment is not supposed to stop that, what is it for?

    Mar 27th, 2019 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DemonTree

    REF: “they're trying to legalise corruption”:

    They're trying something worse than legalizing corruption. Please DON'T shoot - I'm just a messenger: P. Guedes - if he really is a Super-Economist - & NOT yet another “politician”; he may be FORCED to resign:
    https://exame.abril.com.br/brasil/guedes-diz-que-fica-se-presidente-apoiar-coisas-para-resolver-o-brasil/

    Mar 27th, 2019 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    “Judge Ivan Athié of the TRF-2 federal appeals court said”
    ”Lula da Silva's Second Conviction Another Travesty of Justice
    The two cases are very similar in that both cases Lula was accused of accepting bribes in the form of renovations from OAS, a powerful construction company, for two homes. However, in neither case did the prosecution demonstrate that Lula actually owned these homes ...
    BRIAN MIER: It’s very similar to the previous conviction, with weaker evidence. Essentially, the U.S. Department of Justice and Curitiba Public Prosecutor’s Office joint investigation known as Lava Jato, Car Wash, spent years investigating Lula, and they made three accusations against him. The first was for the renovations in the apartment in Guaruja, which they were unable to prove he had ever owned, or even spent any time in, or that renovations had actually taken place there. In the current case over this vacation property in Atibaia, Judge Moro was the investigator. He built the case with constant support from the U.S. Department of Justice. Patrick Stokes flew down to Curitiba a couple of times. They used U.S. DOJ tactics, mainly basing the entire conviction on one plea bargain testimony, as the DOJ did against Senator Ted Stevens in 2009, Alaska, in a case that was also overthrown later.
    BRIAN MIER: First of all, Moro is a right wing political operative who’s working in partnership with the U.S. Department of Justice, and has been for several years. He has no impartiality whatsoever, because he removed Lula from the presidential race to open the path for Jair Bolsonaro, who he is now working for as a cabinet minister. And he also illegally leaked slanderous information against leading–the PT candidate Fernando Haddad two weeks before the elections last year, also aiding Jair Bolsonaro. And it’s now come out, according to Vice President Hamilton Mourao, that Moro was meeting with Bolsonaro’s people before he leaked that information. So not only does it appear that he’s obvio

    Mar 28th, 2019 - 10:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    DT
    I know “stellionate” sounds strange, had never heard of it myself until I decided to consult Google to find a translation for the Portuguese word “estelionato”, a very common crime here, and which is for ex., the name given to the act of selling the same thing several times...so I suppose a person who practises it would be a swindler.

    Although I'm pretty sure that Temer knew his day would come, and has already destroyed as much evidence as he can, but now, that the day has come, he will redouble his efforts....that's the reason for jailing him preventively until the police are satisfied that he can no longer obstruct Justice...

    I see that the 'Petistas”and their supporters carry-on with their usual bullsh*t......Cesare Battisti (member of an Italian extreme-left, armed terrorist group, active in the 70's) has finally confessed to the 4 assassinations for which he was convicted (“in absentia”), but the PT (Eduardo Suplicy, Tarso Genro, Gleisi Hoffman) continues to allege his innocence....they simply cannot bear the fact that it has been proved that Lula was wrong in granting him status of political refugee on the last day of his 2nd term.
    At the time Lula's decision (which should never have been his to take, as the STF had already rulled to extradite him) was highly criticized, as his reason was purely political...to keep the left happy.
    Battisti, has even warned the PT to stop supporting Maduro....but they won't listen.

    Mar 28th, 2019 - 04:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Cont.
    “So not only does it appear that he’s obviously not impartial, he’s politically aligned with the far right. It also appears that he illegally collaborated to help Bolsonaro win the elections.”
    https://therealnews.com/stories/lula-da-silvas-second-conviction-another-travesty-of-justice

    Mar 28th, 2019 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    It's probably just the thing where different countries divide up crimes slightly differently. Like we have murder and manslaughter and the US has homicide with different degrees. Selling the same thing several times would probably just be called fraud here, but maybe a lawyer would know more distinctions.

    “that's the reason for jailing him preventively until the police are satisfied that he can no longer obstruct Justice”

    I agree, but they're not in fact jailing him preventively. At least now he's no longer president it will harder for him, but as you say he's probably got rid of as much evidence as possible already.

    “Battisti, has even warned the PT to stop supporting Maduro....but they won't listen.”

    Really? They ought to listen to him, on that was well as his guilt. How odd that people will since insist he's innocent after he's confessed.

    As for Lula's decision, not saying he made the right choice, but in the UK the Home Secretary has the final say on extradition. Does Brazil has the same rule that a politician can block it even if the courts agree to an extradition?

    Mar 29th, 2019 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    DT
    “It's probably just the thing where different countries divide up crimes slightly differently.”

    You may have something there...made me think, that true to Brazilian politicians usually legislating in their own cause, the spirit might be to subdivide everything to such a point where there's always a law to annul the effects of another. As a matter of fact, Tofolli (STF Prez) the other day (in a lecture) declared that he believed that the Constiution had to be “trimmed”, because today, just about everything, like for ex., the trucker freight issue in May 2018, ends up in the Supreme Court....which should only get involved in issues which involve the interpretation of the Constitution....'n freight issues hardly qualify for discussion in the STF.
    Temer's imprisonment was preventive, 'n temporary - couldn't be anything else - based on the fact he hasn't been tried, far less convicted.

    Regarding Battisti, just like the crisis, the PT will never admit they were wrong. It's their MO. They'll argue the world is flat, if it suits them.

    At the time, the last word was the STF's....But - and I don't know why - they transferred the responsibility to Lula. People wondered why they'd done that - as all Lula should have done, was to sign the extradition, already decided by the highest Court. That's why Temer, after the STF again ruled for his extradition (when/if caught), simply completed the formalities.

    The only case I can think of that politicians - as a body, i.e., Congress, or a State legislature - can block a court decision - for ex., if a court rules to imprison a politician after being convicted in a crime, which would, or should, mean the automatic loss of mandate - is when they allow the crook to maintain his mandate, salary and benefits. There have been cases where politicians go to prison at night but during the day are free in Congress taking decisions regarding the very thing that got them put away.

    Brazil should reform the whole system, fm scratch.

    Mar 30th, 2019 - 03:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @Jack Bauer

    REF: “they allow the crook to maintain his mandate, salary and benefits”:

    Of course - it's their RIGHT + although convicted or behind bars; they get elected too! By electing, the masses encourage these crooks to steal the public funds!

    Mar 31st, 2019 - 02:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “the spirit might be to subdivide everything to such a point where there's always a law to annul the effects of another.”

    That seems sadly plausible. And the Brazilian constitution does have too many specifics in it that would be better addressed in ordinary laws. To my mind a constitution should define how the country is run and contain general principles/rights to guide the ordinary laws. What seems to have happened in Brazil is different groups using the constitution to try and extend their policies past the end of their mandate. Eg Temer inserting spending caps for the next 10 years, and the rules on pensions. Hence the large number of very specific laws in there.

    “They'll argue the world is flat, if it suits them.”

    That was funnier before there were actually people who do this. Seems there's no idea so dumb you can't find some idiot to support it. :(

    “they transferred the responsibility to Lula. People wondered why they'd done that”

    Hmm. Why do you think they did? He could have let them know he wouldn't be happy for the extradition to go ahead, but they wouldn't all have been appointed by Lula. Guess they wanted to oblige him?

    “There have been cases where politicians go to prison at night but during the day are free in Congress taking decisions regarding the very thing that got them put away.”

    Lol, that's ridiculous. I was sort of hoping this would happen if Lula got elected, just because it would be so hilarious to have a President who had to go back to jail at night. But why don't the voters get rid of these crminals - and the colleagues who enable them?

    “Brazil should reform the whole system, fm scratch.”

    Maybe not necessarily from scratch, but some big reforms ought to help. Even so it still seems the biggest problem is not the laws themselves, but in enforcing them.

    I've written a reply to “Trump and the “Trump of the tropics””, but there's nowhere to post it.

    Mar 31st, 2019 - 01:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DemonTree

    REF: “They'll argue the world is flat, if it suits them”:

    Is a 2nd guess necessary?
    https://i2.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/genildo-17.jpg?w=709&ssl=1

    Mar 31st, 2019 - 03:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    May as well put this here. RE your post on “Trump and the “Trump of the tropics””

    “if transexuals attract attention even if involuntarily, it's because they are doing 'something' to attract it”

    If you see a woman with a five o'clock shadow, or who sounds like James Earl Jones, it's kind of a giveaway. Whereas it's not obvious someone is guy, unless they make it so by manner or clothing or whatever. (And on the internet, famously no one knows if you're a dog. ;))

    Here's what someone said about it, on another forum I read:

    ”Most of the terrifying encounters I get involve me being read as female and being ogled, and then suddenly being read as male. That frame-shift offends people *a lot*. I rarely have problems (aside from some muttered comments, which are frequent) if I simply don't pass from the get-go.“

    I'm guessing the ogling guys are panicking that it could make them gay, and hence they react violently. There probably are some people who like to draw attention to themselves - there are drama queens everywhere - but I don't think it's the majority.

    As for the 'theybies', the parents sound pretty nuts but it's just a couple of families, not a big trend. The kids will probably work it out for themselves in a few years; IIRC it's at age 2 or 3 that kids normally understand they are male or female.

    Re toilets, seems like it should be common sense. If some teenage boy declares he's a girl for the day and goes in the girls toilets, give him detention. But for someone living and dressing as a girl full time, it's okay.

    ”what about your male colleagues who piss all over the floor ?”

    Luckily everyone in my office is house trained and we don't have any problems. But I gather the other office have had issues and that's why they want to change the signs. Rumour has it there's one guy who takes an hour to do his business... guess we'll see what happens when they move in.

    Mar 31st, 2019 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    DT
    Indeed, Congress (mostly left-wing politicians) lost sight of the true spirit of a Constitution 'n went into undue detail.
    Yeah, I think the majority of the STF judges wanted to suck up to Lula, 'n twisted the Constitution to ingratiate themselves with him.
    “But why don't the voters get rid of these criminals - and the colleagues who enable them?”
    Because the majority of voters are stupid. They don't learn.

    Ok, 'from scratch' was a manner of speech...but a profound reform based on what has worked in other, more advanced countries. But most of Congress, besides being too nationalistic to admit others can do it better, are not exactly in favour of a system that would punish them for being crooks. Agree, what's the point of a law if not enforced, or offers a loophole to crooks ?
    +++
    Re “Trump of the tropics..”
    If you see a woman with a five o'clock shadow, or who sounds like James Earl Jones...“
    OK, can't disagree - it's part of being who they are, but why do they 'have to' insist on being conspicuous ? And if it's the ”others“ that are being ”offended“, then afaic, that's their problem.

    The ”theybie“ concept may not have a LOT of followers, but it well might...there are lots of parents with 'weird' ideas, 'n I've met a few....There's always someone to push an idea, no matter how absurd.
    If the kids are brought up ”normally“, agree, they'll work it out for themselves...'n become aware if they are M or F, by 3 or 4....but if they are brought up believing they are neither, and continuously told this, I think it's gonna create some very confused kids, which could lead to problems later on.

    Re toilets, if a guy has chopped his nuts off and assumed his female ID, ok, women would probably feel ok with it.....but the ”transformation“ has to be ”complete”....not just 'dressing up'.

    Not all are 'house-trained', 'n women don't like using their skirts as mops, to soak up the piss. And what abt the privacy to joke 'n fart freely while taking a dump (men & women)?

    Mar 31st, 2019 - 09:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “Congress lost sight of the true spirit of a Constitution 'n went into undue detail.”

    It probably was a reaction to the dictatorship, when rights were overridden and people (left-wing politicians in particular) weren't safe. So they tried to throw in every guarantee they could think of, and things have not improved since.

    “Because the majority of voters are stupid.”

    Sadly, that is easier to believe than it used to be, after seeing voters in many countries elect autocratic leaders. :(

    “besides being too nationalistic”

    Isn't the Brazilian Congress based on the US one? And the laws were inherited from Portugal? Doesn't seem any reason to get precious about it, but people aren't always logical. And yeah, the crooks have no interest in changing a system that benefits them, or closing the loopholes.
    ***

    “if it's the ”others“ that are being ”offended“, then afaic, that's their problem.”

    Depends if they get violent about it, then it's everyone's problem.

    “there are lots of parents with 'weird' ideas, 'n I've met a few”

    Agreed, but they weren't into 'theybie's, surely? What kind of weird ideas?

    But AIUI, they aren't telling the kids they are neither, but that they can decide what they want to be. And if a transgender kid can be so convinced they are one sex, even with everyone telling them the opposite, I figure a 'normal' kid should know what they are, by the time they start school if not before. I have heard a more disturbing story - a boy raised believing he was a girl, but there isn't room here.

    Re toilets, does the idea of FTMs using the men's loos bother you? In some ways it's worse, because women's loos are all cubicles so there's nothing to see. But as for our office, it's just two rooms, each single occupancy, so there's no problem with privacy. I hope no one in the other team makes a mess, but evidently there is some kind of problem, so who knows?

    Mar 31st, 2019 - 11:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DemonTree

    REF: “Congress lost sight of the true spirit of a Constitution 'n went into undue detail”

    I'd rather believe that: “Constitution lost sight of the true spirit of a genuine democracy 'n went into undue detail”

    In fact, the true spirit of a genuine democracy has lost it's way completely, in the “donations” [Box Nº 2] from the Well-Wishers, Multinational Corporations, Foundations [mostly, overseas] and the Other Mostly-Hidden Sources.

    And to make it even worse, the bargaining of the Lobbyists, Congressmen + the Other Shady Characters makes it very easy to sell democracy to the masses - everything, on a perfectly legal platter!

    Didn't anyone notice how D. T. Is losing his sleep due to the suffering of the Venezuelans? Luckily, nobody is suffering in Syria, N. Korea, Yemen, etc, etc, etc.

    Apr 01st, 2019 - 01:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    DT
    The Constitution of 88 was indeed influenced by the left...but those who did not openly defy the government in a subversive manner, were left alone. The 400 +/- that were detained / killed, confirms (imo) that the military were not out to erradicate the left but to stop them fm installing a communist dictatorship. Most people like to remember only what the military actually did, not 'why' they did it.

    The concept of Congress came from the US, but our politicians transformed it with Portugal's colonial mentality....'protect themselves while treating the people as a means towards an end (theirs).

    If some idiots react violently to transexuals, gays etc, then the law against violence - which applies to everyone - “should” be able to address the problem ; No need for specific laws to single out violence against transexuals. Why should violence against them be classified differently ?

    Parent's weird ideas : basically, allow kids do what they want to, literally...otherwise you will curb their “initiative”....think I've mentioned this b4...a mother who encouraged her 5 yr old daughter to crap anywhere...for ex., in the middle of a shopping mall corridor....and others, who allow their children to break things in the homes they are invited to (1st 'n last time, I'm sure !)...and try talking them out of it.

    “But AIUI, they aren't telling the kids they are neither, but that they can decide what they want to be” : afaic it is, 'n besides inverting the natural order of things, it's denial of a physical attribute, not to mention it will - imo - screw with the kid's heads. I say allow nature to take it's course, 'n respect whatever the result is....don't try to change it artificially.

    If the loo is single occupancy, then only pissing on the floor is a problem...but when you have urinals, and booths - which don't give much privacy - it can be a problem. And, the overwhelming smell of crap 'n loud farting can cause embarassing situations btwn M, W, lesbians 'n FTM's.

    Apr 01st, 2019 - 04:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @Jack Bauer

    It's simple - with freedom, comes [should come] responsibility. Either one has both or better have none!

    Apr 01st, 2019 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @ :o))
    “In fact, the true spirit of a genuine democracy has lost it's way completely, in the “donations””

    Yes, and that happens in every country, not just Brazil. All those perfectly legal donations and lobbyists have a lot more influence than mere voters.

    @JB
    The ~400 was those killed, the number arrested was much higher. Lula, for example, went to jail for organising strikes, not trying to install a communist dictatorship. In any case, the left didn't see it the same way you do, hence the bloated constitution.

    “If some idiots react violently to transexuals, gays etc, then the law against violence - which applies to everyone - “should” be able to address the problem”

    Except the law isn't doing a good job addressing violence against anyone. Are there specific laws for violence against transsexuals?

    “a mother who encouraged her 5 yr old daughter to crap anywhere”

    I remember you saying now, that's fucked up. Who the hell thinks that's a good idea? Perhaps they just can't be bothered to teach their kids how to behave. Seems like a lot of bad parenting comes from taking a good idea to extremes. Letting kids use their initiative - good, letting them do whatever the hell they want - bad. Not enforcing rigid gender roles on kids - good, trying to keep the kid's sex a secret even from them - crazy. It's kinda obviously better for people to be happy with their biological sex, since there's all kinds of limitations on changing it, so why would you want to leave it to chance?

    Re the story I mentioned, it's some anonymous person on Reddit, so who knows if it's true, but here's the link:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/t0ynr/throwaway_time_whats_your_secret_that_could/c4kp11w/

    As for toilets, I've used a couple of really unisex ones - shared cubicles, with the urinals behind a wall - and it was a bit disconcerting. Dunno if that's just because we're not used to it, though.

    Apr 01st, 2019 - 10:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DemonTree

    REF: “that happens in every country, not just Brazil”:

    TRUE! The Flip-Side is: “Corruption is Universal” + like the lost War-on-Drugs; so is the War-on-Corruption!
    https://i1.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Reforma-Previdencia-trabalhar-ate-morrer.jpg?resize=580%2C410&ssl=1

    Apr 02nd, 2019 - 10:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Not sure, but presume several thousand were detained for questioning, but the fact only 400 + got screwed confirms what I said...if the military had been out to erradicate the left, the death toll would've been much higher.
    A Constitution, regardless of the predominant ideology of those writing it, should never go into the detail Brazil's does...they really exaggerated, and now, to change a law, to adapt it to current reality, becomes a pretty complicated issue.

    “Except the law isn't doing a good job addressing violence against anyone”...agree, so the notion of specific laws which apply to either transexuals, or women, or men, makes no sense....one law that punishes all degrees of violence against human beings covers them all.
    To answer your question on a law to combat violence against transexuals, they are pushing for it....the way they are going, soon every sex, or 'percieved' sex, will have its own laws to protect them.

    Re the kids, my comprehension of the issue - which is let nature take it's course - is not “leaving it to chance”...the moment you interfere with the natural order of things you are unduly influencing it....that, imo, is when sh*t can happen.
    Decades ago people couldn't just come out of the closet, but today, with all the freedom to, what's the problem ? why force the issue 'n potentially create a problem, when in the majority of cases there wouldn't be one ?

    Even if the story in the link may not be true, it exemplifies what I said....a woman, who went one step further than telling the kid he was neither M or F, and told him he was a girl - got him pretty confused, and very nearly screwed his whole life...so I repeat, let nature take it's course....it will sort things out in its own time.

    Re toilets, every one always used to be fine with toilets for Men, and toilets for Women....the moment they become unisex (or multisex) or 'indifferent', a lot of people, I'd say the overwhelming majority, will be uncomfortable

    Apr 02nd, 2019 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “if the military had been out to erradicate the left, the death toll would've been much higher.”

    Like in Argentina and Chile? Trust once lost is not so easily regained, either for the left or the right. They are still worried about coups and you still worry the left will turn the country into Venezuela. It's about perception, not reality.

    “so the notion of specific laws which apply to either transexuals, or women, or men, makes no sense”

    Why have separate laws for terrorism, then? Murdering people and building bombs is already illegal, existing laws should be able to address the problem, no?

    Re gender, if a kid who is raised normally is insistent they are really the other sex, that's one thing, and I think it's cruel to force them to conform; they'll either grow out of it or not. But why tell kids they have a free choice when one option is much easier than the other? I agree, it's silly to potentially create a problem, when in the majority of cases there wouldn't be one.

    Raising a boy as a girl, and lying to him, is pretty obviously a bad idea. But I think the social services didn't handle it too well either, taking him away from everything he knew and trying to turn him into a stereotypical boy instantly, without any chance to process it all. It's kind of surprising he turned out so okay.

    ”the moment they become unisex (or multisex) or 'indifferent', a lot of people, I'd say the overwhelming majority, will be uncomfortable”

    Probably. What do you suggest, though?

    Apr 02nd, 2019 - 07:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Me : “if the military had been out to erradicate the left, the death toll would've been much higher.”
    You : “Like in Argentina and Chile?”
    I think so.

    “It's about perception, not reality.”.....before the event, sure....when/if reality confirms perception, then it's already too late.....the military saw the possibility of a commie takeover looming on the horizon, and I'm sure they acted on more than just a simple perception.

    OK, once a person dead, it doesn't make much difference - to them - but “how” has to be taken into consideration.....not necessarily 'why'....or are you saying that killing a man, or a woman or a transexual is different ? and should therefore have different sentences, if the criminal is convicted ?
    Don't think that murder, defined as, for ex., shooting a guy for x,y,z reasons - because he screwed your wife, because he stole from you, because he intentionally set your house on fire etc - cannot be put in the same category as terrorism....the former implies targeting a single person, someone who has done you harm, while the latter means the death of dozens of innocents, people you don't even know...and for what ? a “cause”, just or otherwise ? Experience leads to separating types of crimes and their corresponding sentences.

    It's not a matter of “telling” a kid that he has a free choice....that already conflicts with his/her sex at birth and will only make him/her wonder why.....once again, telling the kid nothing - unless he/she asks about his/her innermost feelings - and let them dicscover for themselves, is the best approach. Imagine telling a boy, born a boy, being told he can be a girl if he 'wants'....what sort of dumb ass advice is that ?
    In the story you linked, clearly wrong decisions were taken all the way through.

    ”What do you suggest, though?'
    If society is really going to take notice of such crap, then men's toilets for men, ladies ones for women, one for trans and one for gays (men or women)....simple.

    Apr 02nd, 2019 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
    “The military saw the possibility of a commie takeover looming on the horizon, and I'm sure they acted on more than just a simple perception.”
    I'm sure you know your claim is absolutely untrue, as I have pointed out oodles of times.
    “Inconveniently, the US can point to nothing even remotely threatening done by the Brazilian Communist Party, and early in 1964, Russian leader Khrushchev refuses even token financial aid to Goulart, not wishing to tangle with the US over the country. ” Brazil Herald, 3/6/64

    Apr 03rd, 2019 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB/@DT

    REF:“if the military had been out to ERADICATE the Left”

    I doubt that the objective was all THAT noble besides making hay while the sun was shining! They DID their best anyway; of the opportunity of draining the economy + supporting hyper-inflation [torture/murders apart]!

    Apr 03rd, 2019 - 10:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Re perception, I was really talking about after the return to democracy, but the coup was also about perception - it didn't matter in the end whether the communists were planning anything or not, the military believed they were, so they took over.

    On murder vs terrorism, “the former implies targeting a single person, someone who has done you harm, while the latter means the death of dozens of innocents, people you don't even know.”

    Innocent people are murdered all the time, in robberies gone wrong, or caught in shootouts, or the women you mentioned who were killed by their exes. So the difference isn't that big. Terrorism is different because the intention is to cause fear, and because it affects more than just those killed. But if it's common for some group to be murdered, it has the same effect of making them afraid to go about their business in case they are attacked, which is kind of similar to the aims of the terrorists.

    “It's not a matter of “telling” a kid that he has a free choice”

    I think we pretty much agree on this. Fact is we don't live in a world with free choice; changing sex is difficult, expensive, and isn't going to give full feeling or function. It's dishonest to tell kids otherwise.

    As for loos, providing extra toilets would probably get expensive, but there has to be provision one way or another. Personally I think prison is a much bigger problem, particularly when you've got someone who's had hormone treatment and looks like a woman, but hasn't had surgery (yet). Whatever their legal sex, it's obviously not a good idea to send them to a men's prison, and a women's prison would be equally problematic. I don't know what happens in that case.

    Apr 03rd, 2019 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    DT
    Well, if you want to group all killings - murdering an ex, killing a criminal who assaulted you, or blowing up 50 people in a church, or a mosque - under the same category, because “the difference isn't that big”, be my guest...it's not how I see it. Intent, is usually proportional to the consequences....killing 01 person who seriously screwed you, can't be regarded as the same as shooting or blowing up 50 (you've never seen before).
    Terrorists are not judged, or jailed because of their intent to cause fear, but because of the result of their actions - the dozens of innocent lives they take, in one savage act - but as I said, if you think that they, and a guy who killed his ex, are the same, I don't agree.
    Free a terrorist, 99% chance he'll go back to terrorism ; but it's unlikely that a guy who killed his wife, and was jailed for 10 years, will recidivate.

    I think that once someone has decided to go the whole hog - ex., a man, who submits to castration, or a man who wants to assume his transexualism, cost is not going to be a consideration ...it's usually a well thought-out decision by an older person, who supposedly knows what he wants.
    Choices may be limited, but most times it's either 'yes' or 'no' when it comes down to deciding.
    When / IF society, as a whole, is prepared to “accept” the idea that there are more sexes, other than M and F, then all commercial new builds, as well as old, will have to adapt to this new reality.....but then it comes down to evaluating how important it is....and IF important enough, laws will be passed to ensure it. Your example of someone who had hormone treatment, in a men's prison, here they'd become the local bicycle.....they might even like it....but if there are enough inmates who fit into neither male, nor female, perhaps they'll eventually have their own prison systems.
    How many in the prison system are in the 'middle' ? enough to justify specific policy ?

    Apr 03rd, 2019 - 08:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    You misunderstand me. I'm not saying killing 50 innocent people is the same as one gang member shooting another, but that eg the guy in America who murdered 58 people at a concert in Vegas is not much different to the terrorist who murdered 50 in Florida, and a mugger who stabs a stranger to death for not handing over their iphone is not so different to a terrorist who stabs a stranger to death in the name of Allah. They probably get similar sentences, if still alive, and both may be equally likely to repeat the crime if freed, too.

    “here they'd become the local bicycle.....they might even like it”

    More like they'd be repeatedly raped in a place with no (other) women, a far more severe punishment than whatever sentence they were given. I don't know how many people are in that situation, or what they do in the UK let alone Brazil. The prisons are so underfunded and overfilled in Brazil it's hard to see what the authorities *could* do.

    Apr 03rd, 2019 - 10:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DemonTree

    REF: “it's hard to see what the authorities *could* do”:

    If the authorities are really serious; they could easily sign “treaties” with many countries [Saudi Arabia, N. Korea, China, Russia, etc] to “lend” Free-Labor for their “Special Camps” for Criminals INCLUDING the White-Collar Ones in case of Brazil; as the “damage” is just TOO High!

    The USA for 1, does/did have similar “arrangements”! So it's not “totally unheard of”!

    Just as an EXAMPLE:

    The moment MT [& Co] knows that he'll be “transferred” to a labor-camp of another country; he'll not only cough-up ALL the stolen-billions; but he'll also be GLAD to pay an Extra-Heavy-Penalty; ALL, in a JIFFY!

    On the “Other-Hand”; if “The Farce” continues, ALL of them will continue to plead “Not-Guilty”, NONE will EVER return the stolen wealth AND additionally, more Public-Funds will be WASTED to keep them behind bars! Not only THAT; these crooks actually get ELECTED - honored - in the name of ”democracy!

    Apr 04th, 2019 - 02:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    DT
    IMO, the difference between a person who commits a homicide (for a personal reason, not for a 'cause') and a terrorist (group, or a lone wolf) that kills dozens, is that the latter will keep on killing (for the “cause”) until they are captured or killed (or commit suicide, as in several cases).....the potential danger one and the other represent to society is different...eg, a father who kills a guy who raped his daughter.....although he'll pay the price - jail time...or maybe not, if the jury let's him off - he does not represent a danger to society, and once free, will not repeat the crime.

    In a civilized country, when /if an inmate runs a real risk of being murdered in prison, or being raped (regardless of having had hormone treatment, being gay etc), chances are he will be sent to a facility where he won't be at risk......Brazil still hasn't reached the point of sophistication yet......as the 'system' doesn't care.

    I agree that our prisons are (heavily) underfunded, overcrowded 'n disgusting, but given where the great majority of inmates come from ('favelas', or very poor places), where living conditions are already pretty bad, they probably believe they are man enough to take it, or don't care....they know what they'll face if caught....and you'd think that after being released, a normal person would avoid doing what would send them back... but most don't....seems that as far as they are concerned, crime is the only option for them.
    On the other hand, if the money that's left over after all the corruption, waste etc, isn't enough to take care of the honest citizens, I don't think the prison system is going to be a priority, even if, as it is, it's a post-graduate course in crime.

    Apr 04th, 2019 - 09:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    But most homicides aren't committed for a good or at least understandable reason, but by gang members of rivals, or of innocent people by criminals, or by men jealous their wife or girlfriend left them. And they probably would do it again if they have the chance; the gangs even kill each other while in jail! And how about those two school shooters? Would they be a threat to society if they hadn't killed themselves? I reckon yes.

    It's the latter I think are similar to terrorists. They don't have a cause, but the motivation seems similar - angry young (or not so young) men who blame others and want to hurt people because their own lives aren't working out. And they want to do something that will get them noticed, force people to pay attention to them.

    “In a civilized country”

    Excepting America, that is probably true. Americans don't seem to care, or consider it part of the punishment. Pretty fucked up really. But you're right that in Brazil there's not even enough money to take care of honest citizens. If they can keep the prisoners from beheading each other, that would be progress.

    “you'd think that after being released, a normal person would avoid doing what would send them back... but most don't”

    What I've heard is that however bad it is, once you've been to jail you know that's the worst that can happen, and you know you can survive it. So it's just not as scary as before.

    Apr 04th, 2019 - 10:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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