MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Bolsonaro calls protesting students in the streets, “useful idiots and imbeciles”
Tens of thousands of protesters gathered in cities across Brazil on Wednesday to rally against education spending freezes in the biggest demonstrations yet against President air Bolsonaro, who called marchers “useful idiots and imbeciles.” Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesCan the politicians be called as useful corrupts?
May 17th, 2019 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Useless idiots and corrupts.
May 17th, 2019 - 03:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They want a scientific, technical, number based approach and they're cutting education?
@DemonTree
May 17th, 2019 - 07:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: They want....................... they're cutting education?
It's ALL a result of the:
http://www.chargeonline.com.br/php/charges/son.jpg
But from an impractical+irrational point of view; as mentioned elsewhere, don't you see that the action will:
- increase unemployment
- employees will be less qualified
- higher education will be either zero or nil
- Nº of unregistered/unofficial employees can increase
- temporary/manual labor will be cheaper
- Brazil can be the largest exporter of such cheap labor
- they, in turn, can send US$; back home to Brazil
- Many other direct/indirect benefits!!!
So you see, not EVERYTHING is permanently LOST!
While the discussion continues, as well as the protests, what percentage of the students out there, in the middle of (worker) union members waving red flags and shouting “Lula Livre”, are truly aware of what is going to be cut...or even why ? To me, as an outsider, looks a lot like they are being manipulated....th4, it's fair to call them 'useful idiots', but only to the unions (all notoriously left-wing) and the radical politicians instigating them.
May 17th, 2019 - 08:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just a small interruption, for a laugh : saw students protesting, carrying placards, which read “Só a educação TRAZERÁ futuro”...'supposed' to mean “only education will bring us a future”...they can't even write a 5 word sentence correctly, as 'TRAZERÁ' does not exist....it's 'TRARÁ'...and they call themselves UNIVERSITY students ?
But let's see the numbers : Federal budget for Fed Univs in 2019 : total R$ 49,6 billion
Of that total, R$ 42,3 billion (85%) are obligatory expenses,
R$ 6,9 billion (13,8%) are discretionary,
R$ 0,4 billion to be distributed through Parliamentary amendments.
Only R$ 1,7 billion of the discretionary expenses are subject to cuts, contingent on the economy improving / govt revenue increasing....or 3,43 % of the total.
In 2010, an election year, Lula cut the Federal budget by R$ 10 billion, most of it in the (Federal) Education budget. His justification : “I'm not going to play with the economy just because it is an election year” ....sounds a bit odd...because that's just what he did.
In 2015 Dilma made several budgetary cuts (due to the PT made crisis), and more specifically to the (Federal) education budget...R$ 9,4 billion.
A damned sight more than the current R$ 1,7 billion in cuts, or 3,43 % of the total - and that's not even taking into account the inflation between 2015/18 - however I don't recall the students protesting....wonder why? Perhaps because of the marxist ideology prevalent in the Federal Institutions ?
So B makes the cuts...BAD ; the PT made cuts...OK.
The real test of the government will be the result of the free market and society reforms. Unemployment, GDP and financial markets will show improvement. Meanwhile, Lula remains in prison where he belongs...
May 17th, 2019 - 11:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Under no excuse, the means for studying can be curtailed, unless the idea is to increase the nº of uneducated!
May 17th, 2019 - 11:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@JB
May 18th, 2019 - 12:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0“however I don't recall the students protesting”
This article from 2015 says there were protests, but they don't seem to have been very coordinated or well reported in the mainstream press:
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/07/youth-protests-dilma-rousseff-pt/
As for the sign, it could be a difference in dialect, but good grammar is not really a requirement for degrees in STEM subjects. It mystifies me how you can remember 70 different conjugations for all the irregular verbs anyway.
@Chicureo
Macri made free market and society reforms. When are unemployment, GDP and financial markets going to show improvement?
REF: Tecmundo: “PEGASUS, malware that spies cell phones, is active in Brazil”:
May 18th, 2019 - 12:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1129714498917609472
Maybe, the Team from Israel was in Brazil - not to save the victims of the Brumadinho-Catastrophe but to “Instal Pegasus”?
DT
May 19th, 2019 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Rgdng the Jacobin article of 2015, by what I remember, the local press gave pretty limited coverage to the specific incidents….perhaps because they were just part of a far bigger crisis in Rio, already totally screwed by their own govt ? Nevertheless, the (UERJ) crisis etc, was bigger that the current cuts…
The article refers to “non-union subcontracted workers also striking across the country because hadn’t been paid for months” (not a risk now).
It says “the PT has moved to restore confidence by a series of deep cuts” (far larger than now), talks abt “crumbling buildings” (good reason to protest), but back then, in a far worse situation, the students' reaction seems to have received less attention from the media than today’s.
Despite being a voice for the Left, Jacobin has at least said it all, in one sentence : “the PT’s failure to make good on its promises of social ascension and its involvement in corruption…”, which looks like in 2015 protests were also largely triggered by the deplorable state of the economy.
As for the sign in bad Portuguese, presume you’re joking…what I’m saying is, that kind of mistake is lamentable for students who are supposed to be in University, as that kind of problem should’ve been taken care of well before.
And while you might be prepared to forgive small slip-ups fm students taking STEM subjects, most of the protesters - as mentioned by the press - are from ‘human sciences’ (philosophy, sociology, anthropology …)... where they often get ‘lost’ in their thoughts .
If I , as a foreigner, learned how to speak ‘n write Portuguese correctly, even though having transferred to the Brazilian system at 16, there’s little excuse for 20 year old “Brazilian” students…..seems to confirm what I’ve said before : many students are ‘pushed’ through the public school system, without ‘really’ dominating the language (or math, for that matter), aren’t higher-education material, ‘n would probably be better off doing something else.
@JB / @DT
May 19th, 2019 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The real incentive to study - apart liking to learn - is the prospect of getting a good job on completing some level of education - a chance of getting employed with a respectable salary - either in one country or another. If that too costs just too much or is sub-standard; the students WILL feel discouraged+frustrated+helpless.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BsptH9NfgoM/TdkGdFqTjVI/AAAAAAAAEWI/4gWrYeJutY8/s1600/Charge2011-educacao.jpg
@JB
May 19th, 2019 - 10:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think the many bigger demonstrations in 2015 may well have overshadowed the students protesting education cuts. But the article also mentions that the biggest student union had links to the PT, which could explain the reluctance to organise national protests, despite ordinary students being in favour.
I'd forgotten how big Dilma's cuts were. Each government cuts more and more, and the economy is unable to recover.
Re the sign, I don't understand how anyone would make that mistake. At first I thought it was a spelling error, which are normal enough (and more what I'd expect a STEM, or any, student to get wrong), but it can't be. Is 'trazer' uncommon in Brazil or something? If it's a common word, how could anyone possibly not know the correct conjugation? Only people I've seen conjugating common verbs wrong are those poor benighted colonists on the other side of the Atlantic. ;)
@ :o))
The problem these days is lack of jobs for young people. What's the point of studying for years and taking out huge loans just to end up unemployed or doing some menial job?
@DemonTree
May 19th, 2019 - 10:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “The problem these days is lack of jobs for young people”:
True - even for the not-so-young! But whose fault is that?
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
May 20th, 2019 - 12:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0“While the discussion continues, as well as the protests, what percentage of the students out there, in the middle of”
I know of one school who is so cut back on supplies. That their meagre supply of text books are loaned to groups of students, to be used only in their allotted time slot at the school library.
Why in the library, why don't they just hand them out during lessons like normal?
May 20th, 2019 - 08:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0There is an insufficient number of books to hand out, due to cost cutting.
May 20th, 2019 - 10:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0That doesn't answer the question at all. Just give me your cite.
May 20th, 2019 - 11:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 20th, 2019 - 11:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0I thought so, your in full troll mode, so the answer is no.
This is how the spirit of true democracy is twisted:
May 20th, 2019 - 11:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0https://twitter.com/OpenSecretsDC/status/1130431724775563264
Terry: thinks asking for a cite is trolling.
May 20th, 2019 - 12:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Also Terry: always asks for a cite.
Thanks for confirming you're a troll, asshole.
@ :o))
What's that all about?
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 20th, 2019 - 02:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The confirmation of who is the slavish asshole troll is yourself. As far as I know other than my witness I don't know whether this school has posted such information. But in these precarious times I'm not going to provide either the school or the party that told me, in order to protect them from any political consequences. As you are so blissfully ignorant of the fact that Brazil isn't governed by tolerant people.
@DemonTree
May 20th, 2019 - 03:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “What's that all about?”:
Shows how democracy - Bought & Sold Financed [liberally & literally prostituted] Democracy - works; wrt the Tweet: “It's sometimes possible to determine which races will be the most competitive based on which candidates are attracting the most $. Based on what we've seen, keep an eye on #AZSen”
WHILE THE TRADE-WAR [winnerless] ESCALATES:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-19/trade-war-sets-tone-for-global-outlook-world-economy-week
@ :o))
May 20th, 2019 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh, I see. When the race is competitive the parties funnel more money to their candidates in that area.
Terry at school: https://image1.masterfile.com/getImage/NjE5LTAxNzI0NDE1ZW4uMDAwMDAwMDA=AOf65m/619-01724415en_Masterfile.jpg
@DemonTree
May 20th, 2019 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “parties funnel more money to their candidates”:
In a “Greed-Dependent Population”; ALL are ALIKE!
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 20th, 2019 - 04:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Cutbacks in Brazilian education funding 2019 are already in effect, as I have shown whereas all you can contribute is your abysmal ignorance.
”Updated: 7:08 pm, Wed May 15, 2019.
Associated Press |
RIO DE JANEIRO (AP) — Tens of thousands joined in demonstrations across Brazil on Wednesday to protest big cuts in federal funding for public education, the first nationwide rallies organized against far-right President Jair Bolsonaro since he took office Jan. 1.
Avenues and public squares in Sao Paulo, Brasilia, Rio de Janeiro, Salvador and Recife were jammed as students and teachers marched against the decision to pare $1.85 billion from funds for the public education network, from elementary schools to universities.”
DT
May 20th, 2019 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“…the many bigger demonstrations in 2015 may well have overshadowed students protesting education cuts”…think so too. Whatever was going on in Rio, was hardly as important as the nat’l crisis.
“…article also mentions the biggest student union had links to the PT”…Indeed. One of PT’s most radical senators, Lindberg Farias - not re-elected 2018 (investigated/condemned for corruption while mayor of Nova Iguaçu, RJ) was president of the UNE (Nat'l Student Union), ‘n back then he was already a communist a.hole.
The cause of the slow recovery of the economy is the lack of investor/consumer confidence. And while Congress is more concerned with its own bellybutton (bargaining), Brazil sinks further. Its spends too much, and badly (not to mention corruption, which affects basic services).
The mistake on the sign the student was holding, is all too common…on TV, you can see/hear people being interviewed on the streets…very few can actually put a sentence together without some absurd mistake…even some reporters piss out the pot. And when you hear it, it’s like a slap on the head. I have a very good English friend, an ex-master mariner whom I worked with for years, ‘n he makes silly mistakes while writing…seems the technical side of some professions speaks louder than grammar, which is not as important as conveying the message.
“Trazer” is “to bring”….the future (3rd person singular) is “trará”, not “trazerá”, as I’ve seen/heard several ignoramuses use. Most, if not all people from the lower classes, rarely use verb tenses correctly. To see what many students write in University entry exams, if not tragic, would be hilarious…and it is hilarious. Just like Dilma’s frequent gaffes.
Regarding yr comment to ”:o))“, ”What's the point of studying for years…“, in many cases, true…but then the solution is to have a better curriculum than the guys with whom you are competing for a job. And if you adopt that attitude - ”what’s the point” - chances are you'll fail.
“The cause of the slow recovery of the economy is the lack of investor/consumer confidence.”
May 20th, 2019 - 07:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think Keynes would say otherwise, if he was still alive.
“very few can actually put a sentence together without some absurd mistake…even some reporters piss out the pot”
I tend towards a descriptivist view. If so many people get things wrong, it's most likely a sign the language is evolving. 'Trazerá' would be the conjugation if the verb was regular, correct? I don't know much about Portuguese, but in English irregular verbs tend to become regular over time:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/09/29/the-evolution-of-the-past-tense-how-verbs-change-over-time/#.XOL9j8hKg2w
This friend who you mentioned, what kind of mistakes does he make?
And does it bother you that I didn't say 'whom', or that I failed to use the subjunctive, above? Those are rules that are rapidly disappearing from English. But I would much rather see people speak in their own dialect than try to follow 'correct' rules and screw them up, eg using 'whom' when it should be 'who'. Same as it's much better to use a plain word you understand than to pick a fancy synonym from the thesaurus that doesn't quite fit the sentence. That just makes you look pretentious as well as ignorant.
“the solution is to have a better curriculum than the guys with whom you are competing for a job”
The problem is it becomes a Red Queen's race, where everyone must continually improve just to stay in the same place. And for many people it really might not be worth spending several years and taking out thousands in debt to get a degree; they'd be better off getting a job and working their way up, or doing an apprenticeship or whatever. (Note I'm talking about the UK here, where a much higher percentage of young adults go to university.)
@DT / @JB
May 21st, 2019 - 11:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “The cause of the slow recovery of the economy is the lack of investor/consumer confidence”:
Confidence shouldn't be based on “Hopes”+“Blind Faith”. The proofs or the reasons need to be analytically encouraging + sustainable to be able to confide.
http://www.chargeonline.com.br/php/DODIA//camelo.jpg
DT
May 21st, 2019 - 10:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Don't care what Keynes would’ve said. I don't partake in his theories, 'n believe me when I say the market is slow due to lack of confidence. Once/if investments are made, job situation will improve, 'n so will the economy. Other than that, it'll will remain (at best) stagnated.
”Trazer” is an irregular verb, but to excuse the mistake on account of being irregular, is just prostituting the language ; if you take that attitude, then you have to excuse every/any mistake, no matter how pathetic, and don’t even bother teaching grammar – just adopt the mistakes (uneducated) people make all the time….and even then they’d probably keep on creating “new” mistakes on top of the old mistakes.
I don’t for a second think it’s because it’s evolving, because that, afaic means the inclusion of new words to describe new things, new situations – it’s the plain simple lack of studying. My friends mistakes are spelling mistakes, not verb tenses.
Your using ‘who’ (usually the subject) instead of ‘whom’ (used as direct/indirect object) is far less serious than “Trazerá”….I know, I speak the language.
When/if those rules DO disappear from English, and are taught that way, OK, but until “trará” is officially substituted by “trazerá”, the latter is still a pathetic mistake.
In Brazil there are no dialects, and while some mistakes may be forgiven (as not really serious), “wrong” through not knowing any better, is still wrong. As for using a plain word I/O some fancy synonym, I agree, but some synonyms fit in better than others.
“The problem is it becomes a Red Queen's race….just to remain in the same place”. Sure, that is the tendency, but then it comes down to how ambitious you are. But I agree – as I've said - not everyone is material for higher education…perhaps being a mechanic, or a carpenter will earn just as much money, without all the stress. I have an acquaintance, a carpenter, who went to NZL 10 years ago. He earns as much, or more, than many professional liberals.
“Don't care what Keynes would’ve said.”
May 21st, 2019 - 11:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The evidence is on his side, though. Reality doesn't care what anyone thinks.
“if you take that attitude, then you have to excuse every/any mistake, no matter how pathetic”
No, that's not so. Language is a community endeavour; words have meaning because other people agree they do. If one person, or a few make a mistake, it's just a mistake. But if a majority of people adopt it, and continue using it, then it'll be well on its way to becoming an accepted part of the language. It's true that the majority of changes are new words, but there are also grammar changes like who/whom. None of my schools taught us to use 'whom', and it's clearly dying out, so although I know the rule, I choose not to follow it. But if I were still a student and my essays would be marked based on it, then I would conform. Similarly I think students in Brazil should be able to use the language correctly, according to the formal rules, even if they don't speak that way in their daily life. A protest sign is a bit more of a grey area, but getting it wrong looks pretty stupid, unless the protest is about how inadequate your education is. ;)
Incidentally, I bet Terry's school did tell him to use 'whom' instead of 'who', resulting in him writing stuff like “I associate fascism with those whom have given nothing but support for the dictatorship”. Not a good result, I think you'll agree?
“In Brazil there are no dialects”
I find that hard to believe in such a big country. Surely there are differences in how people speak in the various regions?
“but some synonyms fit in better than others.”
Yes they do, but you have to understand a word in order to use it effectively. There are no shortcuts.
On the general subject, Think wrote some stuff in Spanish on the thread about CFK. What do you think of that? Is that really how people talk in BA?
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 22nd, 2019 - 11:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Incidentally, I bet Terry's school ...” Is much more revealing about yourself as I will show.
”When you’re trying to decide whether to use “who” or “whom,” ask yourself if the answer to the question would be “he” or “him.” If you can answer the question being asked with “him,” then use “whom,” and it’s easy to remember because they both end with “m.” For example, if you’re trying to ask, “Who (or whom) do you love?” The answer would be “I love him.” “Him” ends with an “m,” so you know to use “whom.”
http://overflowlegalnetwork.com/legal-writing-series-who-versus-whom/
”It used to be we thought that people who went around correcting other people's grammar were just plain annoying. Now there's evidence they are actually ill, suffering from a type of obsessive-compulsive disorder/oppositional defiant disorder (OCD/ODD). Researchers are calling it Grammatical Pedantry Syndrome, or GPS.“ illinois. edu/blog/view/25/76120
“Grammar Pedantry Syndrome” is a form of OCD in which sufferers need to correct every grammatical error.” twitter. com/uberfacts/status/218151002707206145
“A pedant is a person who is excessively concerned with formalism, accuracy, ... Asperger syndrome often have behaviour characterized by pedantic speech.” en. wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedant
“In Brazil there are no dialects” Is utter rubbish as there are clear dissimilarities in various regions of the country, which are instantly recognisable.
Lessons to those lacking formal+not-so-formal education:
May 22nd, 2019 - 12:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://notesonliberty.com/2019/05/21/some-lessons-from-brazil/
What a perfect example of Terry's problem. He can quote rules till he's blue in the face, but he's incapable of applying them:
May 22nd, 2019 - 02:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If you can answer the question being asked with “him,” then use “whom,” and it’s easy to remember because they both end with “m.””
“Who has given nothing but support for the dictatorship?” He has! Therefore 'who' is correct.
And Terry, I wasn't correcting you, and didn't correct you at the time, because I'm not a pedant. I was using you as a cautionary example in a discussion of bad grammar, a job for which you are eminently qualified.
@ :o))
I thoroughly agree.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 22nd, 2019 - 03:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Nice attempt at ass kissing, which hasn't actually worked, other than exposing you for what you are.
“I wasn't correcting you.” That's exactly what you're doing, by finding fault, which defines you as both OCD/GPS.
I'm referring to 'him' not 'his', so the only 'who' is you.
DT
May 22nd, 2019 - 03:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0OK, what would Keynes have said, which makes so much sense to you (i/o the market is slow due to lack of confidence), what “evidence” on his side shows I'm wrong ?
“Language is a community endeavour”....yes, it is...'n teaching it is also a “community endeavour” to ensure people can speak correctly. Despite yr defense of the student /his 'mistake' - imo not acceptable at Uni level - it's a fact that many in lower social classes speak incorrectly due to little or no education....i/o accepting this reality, 'n incorporating it into the language, education should change it...not to mention that in practise you'd have the educated writing one way, the poor, another.
And in “this” case, it's hardly a matter of “words have meaning because other people agree they do”....what “other” people ? ONE student used a totally wrong, non-existent word, due to sheer ignorance (shitty education), and you think it's ok to be “adopted”? (replacing the correct word?). Besides, wasn't spoken, was written.
I'm pretty sure that his (Uni) entry exam 'essay' (obligatory) was full of similar mistakes, but as the level was lowered to ensure they pass, he did. Sad. But I suppose that's a 'new' liberal view ? Don't bother correcting him, as it wouldn't be politically correct ?
Gollum unfortunately, is an exception in the human (?) race...one of a (sorry) kind. Have you noticed how he stalks us? mention his name 'n he comes out of his hole.
Brazil has NO “dialects” (except the indigenous groups), like for ex. in Nigeria...where different ethnic groups may understand each other (but sometimes barely) as the dialects, handed down through generations, are different. In Brazil the regional differences are on account of accent, intonation 'n local expressions...but when taught, it's the one 'n same official language everywhere.
“...you have to understand a word in order to use it effectively”...totally agree, it's knowing the subtle differences in meaning.
Re 'think', need space..
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
May 22nd, 2019 - 05:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Have you noticed how he ...” You berate me and I'm giving it you back in spades.
“In Brazil there are no dialects” So you assert, whereas Wiki proves you as compulsive liar yet again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Portuguese#Dialects
@JB
May 22nd, 2019 - 06:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“what would Keynes have said, which makes so much sense to you”
That cutting government spending tends to shrink the economy, while spending more inflates it. Not saying it's always the right thing to do, since there are other considerations (like not running up a mountain of debt), but the relationship does seem to hold in practice.
“Despite yr defense of the student /his 'mistake'”
Didn't you see where I wrote “students in Brazil should be able to use the language correctly”, and that one person making a mistake does NOT mean it should or will be adopted into the language? It's a subject I'm interested in, and what I am most curious about is how anyone could possibly make such an error. I cannot imagine a native English speaker, no matter how badly educated, writing 'education bringed us a future”. (Interesting that the verb is irregular in both languages, no?) But I have seen grammar errors online, eg “it needs done” instead of “it needs doing”; apparently this is common in a certain region of America, and is what I mean by dialect.
Wikipedia thinks there are 16 dialects in Brazil, but I suspect they are using a much broader definition than you. A dialect doesn't have to be taught in school, in fact kids are usually taught not to use it. I remember my teachers telling me to write 'our' instead of 'are', which should give you some idea how I used to talk.
“Don't bother correcting him, as it wouldn't be politically correct ?”
In his entry exam essay, or his CV, or if he needs to write as part of his job, yes, correct him. If he's just talking to friends, then it's fine.
As for Terry, he's like one of Pavlov's dogs. Ring a bell and he comes running, shooting himself in the foot as he goes. But I see I have unfairly maligned his teachers; they taught him the correct rule, he's just too stupid to apply it and too arrogant to learn better.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 22nd, 2019 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As for you you're just a clone of JB, making assertions devoid of any proof. Like I said previously some of us can prove what we claim. I have already said, who are you? Other than, servile, subservient, fawning, obsequious, sycophantic, excessively deferential, toadying, ingratiating, unctuous, grovelling, cringing, toadyish, sycophantish, abject, craven, humble, Uriah Heepish, self-abasing; informal slimy, bootlicking, sucky, soapy, forelock-tugging, brown-nosing, apple-polishing, arse-licking, bum-sucking, kiss-ass, ass-kissing, suckholing, unoriginal, uninspired, unimaginative, uninventive, non-innovative, imitative, derivative.
@Gollum,
May 22nd, 2019 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You're a useful idiot - sometimes - 'n an imbecile - always. Wikipedia can define “dialect” as however it wishes, but “caipira”, “nordestino”, “gaucho”, “mineiro” accents do not constitute dialects...If they did, I could claim I speak over a dozen dialects. Afaic, a dialect would be Cantonese, Mandarin, or Igbo, Yoruba or Hausa in Nigeria....while probably having the same origin, today they're different 'n are taught with those differences. No Brazilian school teaches “caipira” or “nordestino”.
The regional differences, characterized mainly by 'pronunciation' ('n local expressions) don't alter the official language, as taught.
@DT
”:o))'s“ link - ”Lessons to those lacking formal+not-so-formal education” is v. good, describes the current situation accurately.
As to Stink's comments in Spanish, it's obvious he disagrees with M.Alejandro on the political issue (CFK), 'n resorts to sarcasm / insults him by calling him a 'bostero' (disparaging term used for Boca Junior fans), meaning a piece of shit, or someone who wallows in it....no different to BA.
Keynes : “cutting government spending tends to shrink the economy”... that is obvious, 'n I'm not contesting “that”...I'm saying current lack of investor /consumer confidence is a major cause for Brazil's slow recovery, because that is what we are going thru now. IF the govt had money, which it doesn't, it's obvious that injecting money into the economy is beneficial.
“Didn't you see where I wrote “students in Brazil should be able to use the language correctly”...Sorry, went unnoticed.
In Brazil's case, don't agree with Wikipedia's definition of 'dialect', as they are not taught as such...they are just the result of people using regional speech tendencies regarding prononuciation 'n slang, but the language remains the same. Afaic, a dialect is an official variation of the mother language, not a result of bad habits or in some cases, a lack of formal education. Fyi, in SP '2', is ”dóiz“, in Rio, ”dóish”.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
May 22nd, 2019 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“accents do not constitute dialects...” To late your 'outed' again, you are 'driven'. As a proved 'compulsive liar', you'd lie about what you had for breakfast
@JB
May 22nd, 2019 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Cantonese and Mandarin are different languages that are written with the same characters. AIUI, they are rather less mutually intelligible than Portuguese and Spanish.
But really there is a continuum from different languages to dialects of the same language to different accents, and people split it in different places. Scots is a dialect, some even say a separate language, and not at all easy to understand, but that isn't taught in schools either.
https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_leid
And the official language is also a dialect, I assume different to the one spoken in Portugal. Wikipedia says it's regulated by the Brazilian Academy of Letters and by the Sciences Academy of Lisbon in Portugal. Apparently English is unusual in not being regulated by anyone or anything... also in having more non-native speakers than native. I foresee a lot of change in its future.
If you put Portuguese into google translate and click the speaker button, it will read it out for you. What accent does that have? I tried to use it to find out how to pronounce João, but it's hard. :(
Re Think, I looked up Bostero, and MA calls him Gayina for supporting River Plate(?) I reckon they're just joking, anyway. Think likes to use a lot of slang and dialect words from different countries when he writes in English, so I wondered if his Spanish is similar. But I guess you don't visit Argentina that often so you wouldn't know all the slang.
As for investor confidence, I agree with what :o)) said earlier: it can't be based on hope and blind faith, investors need good reasons to be confident. But as long as the government keeps cutting, the economy will probably remain in the doldrums.
@DemonTree
May 23rd, 2019 - 08:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “investors need good reasons to be confident”:
TRUE! The economic seesaw at the stock-exchange + the fluctuating currencies are nerve-racking for the Long-Term Investors.
REF: “as long as the government keeps cutting, the economy will probably remain in the doldrums”:
The “still optimistic” may not agree with you:
http://www.chargeonline.com.br/php/DODIA//sinovaldo.jpg
@ :o))
May 23rd, 2019 - 10:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0It would only be fair.
@JB
Can you understand this okay?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkQcwyskJ14&feature=youtu.be
@Terry the Hypocrite
It's 'too late', didn't you learn a rule about that?
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 23rd, 2019 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0“It's 'too late'” For you to put your Humpty Dumpty cuddle chum together again. He is the 'whom', as I was referring to 'him'. While you remain the diminutive 'who' as in 'you'.
Lol. Still refusing to admit you were wrong, despite not following your own rule. What's it like having such a fragile ego, Terry?
May 23rd, 2019 - 11:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0And you think 'who' is a diminutive? That's completely nuts. You can look up the difference between subject and object pronouns, but you still won't have a bloody clue which is which. Just follow my advice on when to use 'whom': never.
From the doldrums; on its way to legalizing corruption:
May 23rd, 2019 - 12:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://politica.estadao.com.br/noticias/geral,veja-como-cada-deputado-votou-na-mp-da-reforma-administrativa,70002840326
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 23rd, 2019 - 01:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Still refusing to admit you were wrong” Your assertion, your burden not mine, your still unable to provide any remedy. For that chronic liar whom you stupidly rely on for information about Brazil. Even though, when I choose to check his claims they are shown to be false. Which is why you, like him, fail to provide proof for your claims, and rely on proof less opining.
@ :o))
May 23rd, 2019 - 02:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At least they allowed the reduction of ministries?
@The Liar
I gave you a remedy in my last post. If you can't use 'whom' correctly, just stop using it.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 23rd, 2019 - 03:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“I gave you a remedy in my last post.” YOU DID NOT you proffered your opinion so the only proven liar is yourself.
“Just follow my advice on when to use 'whom': never.” Another self serving unqualified opinion, I take my guidance from qualified experts. Here's mine where's yours?
“Legal Writing Series: Who Versus Whom” http://overflowlegalnetwork.com/legal-writing-series-who-versus-whom/
Terry taking an exam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCuHTMHRBS4
May 23rd, 2019 - 03:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0PS. We know you're NOT taking guidance from experts, since you use 'whom' incorrectly.
@DemonTree
May 23rd, 2019 - 03:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: At least they allowed the reduction of ministries?
But of course, that does happen! Did you forget the “Infamous Give+Take” as per the age-old culture - the well-accepted political tradition of what one hand gives; the other takes? And everyone lives happily ever after!
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 23rd, 2019 - 05:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“We know you're NOT” In your opinion, which is totally devoid of proof.
”Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof lies with who declares, not who denies) it.“
“An assertion is a statement offered as a conclusion without supporting evidence. since an argument is defined as a logical relationship between premise and conclusion, a simple assertion is not an argument.”
Ignoring the Burden of Proof http://learn.lexiconic.net/fallacies/index.htm
So you are revealed as a proven liar. Whereas, my position is clearly supported by “Legal Writing Series: Who Versus Whom” http://learn.lexiconic.net/fallacies/index.htm
”So that’s the quick and dirty trick: if you can’t remember that you use “whom” when you are referring to the object of the sentence, just remember that “him” equals “whom.”
So much for your contention “Just follow my advice on when to use 'whom': never.” Which is clearly bogus.
DT
May 23rd, 2019 - 07:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Cantonese, Mandarin are different languages, are written with the same characters. AIUI, they’re rather less mutually intelligible than Portuguese ‘n Spanish”.
They ARE considered dialects of the Chinese language, and yes, far “less mutually intelligible than Portuguese ‘n Spanish”...but Portuguese & Spanish, despite their common root (vulgar Latin), are different languages. It's just how things turned out.
But this is about Gollum's idiotic claim that the different regional accents in Brazil constitute dialects. The variation in pronunciation of some words (in some micro-regions, because a “part” of the people don't know any better – (like the ‘caipiras”, the name given to the more simple, rural workers, mainly in the interior of SP, MG) - does not imply they speak a dialect. Portuguese in Brazil still has only one “correct” pronunciation when spoken, 'n one way to write it. But enough time wasted on Gollum....its tiny brain thinks in “Gibberish” dialect.
“Scots” : mostly undecipherable.
Portuguese is spoken in 8 different countries, 'n about 10 years ago, they agreed to try to unify their official orthographies…but the fact remains that in Portugal, the pronunciation is generally /can be, very different to what you hear in Brazil; (for ex., “fish” in POR, is pronounced “paixe” (like ‘pie’+ ‘sh’), in BZL, “peixe” (like ‘pay’ + ‘she’); in POR people usually 'eat' syllables, which requires a lot of attention to grasp what they’re saying) 'n even the spelling maintains forms abolished long ago in Brazil. For ex, the word “act”, in POR is “acto”, here ‘ato’. Re ‘João’: the POR pronunciation is the one that sounds like ‘Ju-wow’;
Stink thinks his sarcasm, such as “EngRish”, makes him sound smart. If ‘joking’, just one step away from insulting. Am not familiar with most Argy slang, but some can be quite close to Portuguese…'bostero' - 'bosteiro’, 'gayina' - 'galinha'.
“Can you unstand this ok” ? quite a bit - need to accustom my ear, but not easy.
“They ARE considered dialects of the Chinese language”
May 23rd, 2019 - 09:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yeah, by the Chinese government for political reasons. Not by linguists. Their ultimate plan is to drive out the other languages and make everyone speak Mandarin, to increase unity in their empire. China also has everyone on the same timezone, despite the absurdity in such a large country.
AFAIK, Portuguese and Spanish speakers can read each other's language, but do they understand much when it's spoken? (I know how that feels; after trying to learn Spanish, I am very much better at reading it than understanding it spoken - perhaps because I have no one to practise with.)
Re dialects in Brazil, they usually are considered incorrect, but it doesn't really matter what they're called. The question for me is do some people use non-standard grammar in a consistent way? Like how in English, people say 'ain't got none' or 'hardly never', and everyone understands them, although it's considered wrong.
If Brazilian Portuguese only has one correct pronunciation, which is it? SP accent? Rio? Something else? And how is João pronounced in Brazil then? I've heard Brazilians say São Paulo and it sounded like 'San Paulo', but with the n not quite pronounced.
As for the Scots, a lot of it's the spelling. If you read it aloud in a Scottish accent it's ever so much more understandable.
“Tha Gaelic o Scotland is nou maistlì cried Scots Gaelic an is yit spaken bi sum en tha wastren Scots Hielands an ilands.”
The Gaelic of Scotland is now mostly cried (called?) Scots Gaelic and is yet spoken by some in the western Scots highlands and islands.
“Stink thinks his sarcasm makes him sound smart.”
Yeah. But friendly joking is often close to insulting.
Re the video, I know exactly what you mean about needing to accustom your ear. I'm guessing after it gets enough input, your subconscious can map the sounds to the ones you're used to, and then you start understanding. Pretty clever.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
May 23rd, 2019 - 10:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Portuguese in Brazil still has only one “correct” pronunciation when spoken ”
Nobody has said otherwise, what is at issue is your stupid statement that “In Brazil there are no dialects”
When a speaker from different part of Brazil is instantly recognisable as from there. Thus, “dialect a particular form of a language which is peculiar to a specific region or social group.” So you have been caught BSing again.
”Brazilian Portuguese - Wikipedia
REF: “demonstrations against the President”:
May 24th, 2019 - 08:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0He may be - understandably too - in favor of the education spending freezes [the masses, of course, don't deserve to be knowledgable] but at least his contribution to Legalizing Corruption is remarkable!
Now, any crook can simply vanish without any trail:
https://twitter.com/exame/status/1131695072750260225
@ :o))
May 24th, 2019 - 08:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0You did say they want to reduce the population. The criminals are already doing a good job, now motorists can join in.
In other news, our company has walled off part of our break room to make a new meeting room, so we're christened it 'Mexico Room'. Think they'll let us keep the name?
@Dumbo
My advice is my opinion, idiot. You can't prove opinions.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 24th, 2019 - 10:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0“You can't prove opinions” You certainly can't if like yours theres no factual basis, so its utterly meaningless. You perfectly represent the adage “they are like derrières, everyones got one”
Just stick with what you do best 'ingratiating'. So your advice is still clearly bogus, dipshit.
DT
May 24th, 2019 - 06:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Yeah, by Chinese govt for political reasons etc”…whatever.
“AFAIK, Portuguese ‘n Spanish speakers can read each other's language, but do they understand when spoken?” If they aren’t complete morons - like an idiot on here who sticks his proboscis where not wanted - they’ll understand most. When spoken, depends on how the person you’re listening to, talks.
In ARG, sometimes the sound is one continuous flow without any space between the words, which makes comprehension a bit harder.
I found the same in some W.African countries, where French is spoken…not being the blacks’ native language, they tend to speak a bit slower than Frenchmen, which was great.
What some like to consider dialects in Brazil, in truth are ‘mainly’ just bad Portuguese because those who speak like “Caipiras” 'n “nordestinos” are virtually uneducated (like in yr video). Their grammar skills are non-existent, ‘n when writing – IF they know how to – it has the same spoken mistakes, which are consistent. It’s just 'a' wrong way of speaking.
In the south, intonation is due to their proximity to ARG & URU.
When one says “I ain’t got none”, you imply you ‘haven’t got any”, but grammar-wise means the opposite or, that you have ‘something’. I might use the expression, but switching ‘none’ for ‘any’.
Like in the US, the Boston accent is considered the most correct, or ‘neutral’, I’d say the “paulista” accent is the least ‘affected’.
Re João, the Bzln pronunciation is the other one, which rhymes with “São” (as in São Paulo, which is not pronounced as “San”, as in 'San' Pablo), 'n ends in an ‘ng’ sound, like in ‘goNG’.
Re ‘Scots’, comprehension is easier if listened to, like some Scots I've met, with a heavy accent. In Stink’s case I believe it was his intention, as to ‘attempt to belittle’ is his style.
If interested, have 3 replies in the oven : “Bzln military caution B”, “100s march in Rio”, “VZ General calls on forces”. Open up most recent threads ‘n advise which they are.
If the 'bad Portuguese' follows consistent rules then it IS a dialect. The interesting thing is that even illiterate, or stupid people don't screw up things in their own dialect. For example, Terry can use 'I' and 'me' correctly without thinking about it. But even given a rule to follow, he can't get 'who' and 'whom' right. Depending what dialect someone speaks, it might be more or less similar to the 'correct', formal version of the language. But smart, educated people can learn more than one, and switch between them as necessary. That's how you knew what 'ain't got none' meant.
May 24th, 2019 - 09:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I learned most of this from a book I read, by Steven Pinker. According to him, languages are created by children, because kids have a built-in ability to learn a language and a consistent grammar. And if the speech they are exposed to doesn't have one, such as happened among slaves taken from many different countries, with no common language, they collectively create it.
“they tend to speak a bit slower than Frenchmen, which was great”
Makes sense. I heard that people who speak English as a second language find other non-native speakers easier to understand. Probably as well as speaking slower, they tend to use simpler language and a smaller vocabulary.
“I’d say the “paulista” accent is the least ‘affected’.”
Heh, just happens to be the one you listen to all day. ;) But I don't think Americans consider the Boston accent neutral, I've heard them mocking it, like 'Bahston Harbah'.
“Re João”
Well, I'm still confused, but I'm pretty sure my colleagues are pronouncing his name wrong.
“Open up most recent threads ‘n advise which they are.”
What do you want me to do exactly? I've commented on a couple of recent stories, if you want to put them there.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 24th, 2019 - 10:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“he can't get 'who' and 'whom' right.” Apparently I can it's you who can't
DT “Just follow my advice on when to use 'whom': never.”
So you are revealed as a proven liar. Whereas, my position is clearly supported by “Legal Writing Series: Who Versus Whom” http://learn.lexiconic.net/fallacies/index.htm
”So that’s the quick and dirty trick: if you can’t remember that you use “whom” when you are referring to the object of the sentence, just remember that “him” equals “whom.”
Here's a quiz for you, just fill in the correct word:
May 24th, 2019 - 11:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To _______ did you send that letter?
I've no idea _______ was standing by the lamp post when the robbery happened.
I just can't think _______ might have done such a thing.
I know you can't do it, because you're too dumb to follow the rule you just quoted.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 25th, 2019 - 01:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Here's a quiz for you” which one true
DT “Just follow my advice on when to use 'whom': never.”
or
“Legal Writing Series: Who Versus Whom” http://learn.lexiconic.net/fallacies/index.htm
”So that’s the quick and dirty trick: if you can’t remember that you use “whom” when you are referring to the object of the sentence, just remember that “him” equals “whom.”
Hmm, it certainly shows it isn't you as the Legal Writing Series indicates.
@DemonTree
May 25th, 2019 - 11:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “The criminals are already doing a good job, now motorists can join in”:
http://www.chargeonline.com.br/php/charges/son.jpg
And afford to keep the armed forces waiting in the queue?
REF: “Mexico Room”
Pl. name it “DT Room” in honor of the Loudmouth!
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 25th, 2019 - 01:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“he can't get 'who' and 'whom' right.”
What a loser, resurrecting previously defeated arguments, and thus lying.
Back, correcting other people's grammar again. ”There's evidence they are actually ill, suffering from a type of obsessive-compulsive disorder/oppositional defiant disorder (OCD/ODD). Researchers are calling it Grammatical Pedantry Syndrome, or GPS.“ illinois. edu/blog/view/25/76120
“Grammar Pedantry Syndrome” is a form of OCD in which sufferers need to correct every grammatical error.” twitter.com/uberfacts/status/218151002707206145
@DemonTree
May 25th, 2019 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “The criminals are already doing a good job, now motorists can join in”:
Pl. don't forget to include the pesticide-manufacturers; offering Free-Cancer through the contaminated food, air & water!
And now, for Terry's benefit, the answers:
May 25th, 2019 - 04:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To whom did you send that letter?
I've no idea who was standing by the lamp post when the robbery happened.
I just can't think who might have done such a thing.
Sadly, Terry's 'position' is sitting in the corner of the classroom with a dunce's cap on his head. It's sad when people refuse to even try and learn.
@ :o))
Not just the pesticide manufacturers but the mining companies that pollute rivers and build unstable dams.
And we've not gonna name anything after Trump, that would be weird.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 25th, 2019 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hmm, your proof less self serving lying, versus an authoritative information that absolutely refutes your assertion.
Thanks for confirming you suffer ”from a type of obsessive-compulsive disorder/oppositional defiant disorder (OCD/ODD). Researchers are calling it Grammatical Pedantry Syndrome, or GPS.“ illinois.edu/blog/view/25/76120
DT
May 25th, 2019 - 05:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”If the 'bad Portuguese' follows consistent rules then it IS a dialect”…permit me to (still) disagree.
For ex., of late (couple of decades ?), even many of the so-called ‘educated” (some of whom I worked with), pronounced the word “advogado” (lawyer) as “adivogado” (inserting an ‘i’ btwn the ‘d’ & ‘v’). Same as if I, in English, pronounced ‘advocate’ as ‘adivocate’ ….likewise, quite a few few words (mainly verbs) spelled with 2 consonants in succession (like dv, gn, bs, pç,) are now pronounced wrongly….I consider it either laziness or ignorance….and which, although being consistent amongst quite few, I don’t consider the formation of a dialect by any stretch of imagination.
Gollum is the lamentable exception, even worse than most…perhaps he’d enjoy “to err is human, and insisting on his mistake is typical to a fool”…Marcus Tullius Cicero.
I think you made the quiz too hard for Gollum.
Afaic, dialects are a 'deliberate' transformation of a base language, eventually recognized ‘n taught as such, not just a perversion of the main language due to lack of ecucation, or whatever.
“Heh, just happens to be the one you listen to all day”. Mere coincidence. Fact is there is no “official” standard, but the most neutral is considered that used in tele-journalism. You can listen to reporters from all over Brazil, the accent is 99,9% the one ‘n same …“paulista”. Only in Rio ‘n the NE, can you sometimes detect a hint of the regional accent, in some.
About the Boston accent, it's considered as such because it’s the closest to English English …or so they say. An educated Bostonian would not say “'Bahston Harbah”…sounds like a bit of Irish in there....that's how a very good friend of mine in NYC, (son of Irish parents), speaks.
Re “João”, go into google translate – as you said – Write ‘João’, under “Portuguese”, to translate to English….click on the Portuguese loudspeaker…(Brzln sound).
Ok, will look for, 'n post where you’ve commented.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
May 25th, 2019 - 05:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“I think you made” The problem is you don't, as a respondent I don't have refute anything.
”Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof lies with who declares, not who denies) it.”
“An assertion is a statement offered as a conclusion without supporting evidence. since an argument is defined as a logical relationship between premise and conclusion, a simple assertion is not an argument.”
Ignoring the Burden of Proof http://learn.lexiconic.net/fallacies/index.htm
@JB
May 25th, 2019 - 07:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“dialects are a 'deliberate' transformation of a base language, eventually recognized ‘n taught as such”
No one sets out to make a dialect. Languages change over time, and if one changes differently in two different places, you get two dialects. Doesn't have to be recognised, or taught in schools - it's like when they discover a new species of animal. It always existed, just wasn't recognised yet.
If even educated people are pronouncing words wrong, it can't be due to ignorance. Sounds weird to me, but presumably they're copying others they've heard, and just prefer it. It's quite funny if the Portuguese are dropping syllables and Brazilians inserting more.
Your quote is perfect for Terry. So true. And any quiz is too hard for him, he probably can't even get his name right. Given the rule to follow, most people would be able to answer, but not Terry. He seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of intelligence: he thinks a dictionary is smart because it contains a lot of information - an absurd idea, a book cannot think, reason, or apply the information it contains. It's a mystery how anyone can be so stupid and not realise it.
I suppose a lot of the media is based in SP, so that explains the prevalence of the accent. I wonder why there's no official standard like RP?
Re Bahston Harbah, I think it's meant to be an exaggeration. Most American accents have a pronounced 'r', but in the UK most people would say 'father' and 'farther' or 'silver' and 'Silva' the same. Boston is more similar to the English English, like you said. Whenever I see Americans try to write things phonetically, it makes me realise how impossible it would be to fix English spelling. I struggle to work out what they're talking about half the time.
As for João, that's what I tried, but it still sounds like there's an n at the end, like in the French 'non'.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 25th, 2019 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't jump through hoops just because some idiot like you on the internet demands it. Who is unable to prove your argument, if you could you would have produced the evidence. The fact that you're fishing, confirms you do not have any such evidence.
“Your quote is perfect” Says you who will not even comply with the basic obligation of “Argumentation theory, Key components of argumentation, Establishing the ”burden of proof“ – determining who made the initial claim and is thus responsible for providing evidence why his/her position merits acceptance.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentation_theory
“An assertion is a statement offered as a conclusion without supporting evidence. since an argument is defined as a logical relationship between premise and conclusion, a simple assertion is not an argument.”
Ignoring the Burden of Proof http:// learn.lexiconic.net/fallacies/index.htm
DT
May 25th, 2019 - 10:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0By 'deliberate transformation', I mean the continued use of whatever expressions, or pronounciations, by enough people, until they displace the original, correct forms......so ok, no one 'sets out to 'make' a dialect', but neither do mistakes, by people who know no better, constitute one.
Languages change over time, yes, to incorporate new words, accept slang as official, but all done over time, with criteria, not based on some 'caipiras' or 'nordestinos', whom, had they been properly educated, would not make the mistakes. As education spreads, the mistakes disappear, so according to your reasoning, 'dialects' will also disappear...In Brazil it's not a case of the language spoken in two different places, going in opposite directions, as the tendency (with education) is to converge.
“If even educated people r pronouncing words wrongly, it can't be due to ignorance”. NO ? Then what ? a girl in the sales team used to say “impreginar” i/o 'impregnar' (to 'impregnate') - one day, after hearing her use it consistently I called her aside...asked her to spell it...she insisted, so I had to get the dictionary to show her...she was a Uni graduate, 'n claimed it was how her mother said it....after that she corrected herself. It's not because they prefer it (???), it's pure ignorance.
“ I wonder why there's no official standard like RP?” have no idea....but the reporters all over Brazil are locals, not 'Paulistas“ being relocated. They know they need to speak with an accent that's understood nationally.
” Bahston Harbah“ is not an exaggeration....heard it quite a lot in the NYC area.
”...in the UK most people would say 'father' and 'farther' or 'silver' and 'Silva' the same“....as I do, and the one you are saying, 'father' or 'farther', will be clear due to how it's used in a sentence.
Re ”João“ as said in Brazil, that's it....the end sounds like the French 'non'.
In Portugal, just ”Ju-wow“, with no ”non'-sound ending. Can't you tell the difference ?
“the continued use of whatever expressions, or pronounciations, by enough people, until they displace the original, correct forms”
May 26th, 2019 - 09:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0That does happen, but slower now we have dictionaries and can find out what the word was supposed to be. Just look at the great vowel shift or words like knight where the 'k' and 'gh' both used to be pronounced. Or going back further, English speakers started dropping the last syllable of words, and since that was where grammatical gender was shown, it disappeared from the language entirely. Maybe the same thing could happen in Portugal? Or not, because the dictionaries would keep them around as silent syllables.
Dialects *are* disappearing, but much more due to television than education IMO. But it doesn't stop the language as a whole evolving, and caipiras and nordestinos have an influence on that, especially if there are a lot of them.
Re 'impreginar', that's weird, and also an odd word to say in casual conversation. Apparently she was copying other people she heard, but I'm surprised she never found out the correct spelling/pronunciation. Maybe people speaking other languages are less likely to check since the spelling is more regular?
Which language did you learn to read and write in first? And which is easiest to spell now?
“Bahston Harbah is not an exaggeration”
Huh, I didn't think they really said it that way. American accents are funny. But they also have fewer vowel sounds, so they say cot and caught, and Don and Dawn the same. Also Mary, marry and merry in some areas. And Sirius and serious. Normally you can tell from context but it makes names very confusing unless you see them written down.
“Can't you tell the difference ?”
Maaaaaybe? But either way it's really hard to say the sound. Annoying to write, too. Do you have a 'ã' key on your keyboard?
And for a laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNuFcIRlwdc
If you turn on the subtitles at the bottom you can see how accurate the sketch is!
@DemonTree
May 26th, 2019 - 11:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: it's pure ignorance
TRUE!
+ Poor Quality of Education + Negligence + Disinterest [Education/Profession, not a priority for many students]!
@JB
May 26th, 2019 - 04:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Amusingly, people on another forum I read also started talking about who and whom, and one had this to say:
“Pro-tip: If unsure whether to use 'who' or 'whom' use 'who.' Sneer and say ”I'm a descriptivist“ if anyone complains. Using 'whom' where 'who' is correct makes one sound like an ostentatious imbecile.”
It's almost like he knows us... :D
And something I ran out of space for before:
I wish we did have a distinction between silver and silva, because I find it hard to hear, too. When I do listening exercises in Spanish I often mix up familiar and familia, and verbs like da/dar and mira/mirar. The first pair are the worst 'cause I can never remember what the difference is anyway.
DT
May 26th, 2019 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ok, we seem to agree on a few points regdng dialects. Tried the old pronunciation of “KniGHt” sounds pretty wierd.
But in the case of “caipiras” 'n “nordestinos” who have left their regions, I have the impression that over a number of years they are more likely to 'lose' their very strong accent and converge to the way the language is spoken where they move to...
In the “impreginar” conversation, it was being used in the sense of, for ex., impregnating clothes with liquid cocaine...and most knew she was wrong, and despite their correct pronunciation she did not pick up on it...she even resisted after being shown she was wrong....obviously didn't pay much attention during Portuguese lessons.
Portuguese is easier to spell as you write most of it as it sounds.
First learned to speak English, but when started school, both languages were taught simultaneously, and obviously, grammar came into the picture.
US accents vary quite a bit....only had trouble - sometimes - trying to understand those from the mid-south (TN, AL, KY, MS).
No, no 'ã' on the keyboard....need to type the 'tilde' and in sequence, 'a'.
Re the “ELEVEN” link I'd seen it before....bloody hilarious....reminded me of some episodes from Fry 'n Laurie.....but it shows the subtleties in pronunciation.
As to 'who' and 'whom', if you use 'who' for everything while talking, you be right more times than wrong...but in writing, using the right one is almost second nature...'whom', when properly used just sounds right. But it is tricky while trying to learn the language.
For me, 'silver' and 'Silva' aren''t a problem, as I say 'Silva' using the Portuguese pronunciation. In many cases, as you've also said, accustoming your ear to the sounds is essential.
@DemonTree
May 26th, 2019 - 05:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: Not just the pesticide manufacturers but the mining companies that pollute rivers and build unstable dams
TRUE!
Highly optimistically speaking; this one is a World on an Automatic Autodestructive Fast-Froward Toxic Mode!
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
May 26th, 2019 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“people on another forum” At the end of the day your still outed as an idiot, and have failed to prove that I'm incorrect.
Still trying to correct other people's grammar yet again. ”There's evidence they are actually ill, suffering from a type of obsessive-compulsive disorder/oppositional defiant disorder (OCD/ODD). Researchers are calling it Grammatical Pedantry Syndrome, or GPS.“ illinois. edu/blog/view/25/76120
DT “Just follow my advice on when to use 'whom': never.”
or
“Legal Writing Series: Who Versus Whom” http://learn.lexiconic.net/fallacies/index.htm
”if you can’t remember that you use “whom” when you are referring to the object of the sentence, just remember that “him” equals “whom.”
Hmm, it certainly shows it's you who is absolutely wrong as the Legal Writing Series indicates.
“the old pronunciation of “KniGHt” sounds pretty wierd.”
May 26th, 2019 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Definitely. I just wish they'd updated the spelling to match the new pronunciation sometime in the last 300 years.
Re people moving region, I think converging to the new accent is inevitable. My parents moved from the north of England to the south 40 years ago and both have lost nearly all of their northern accents. And my FIL who's lived in the US for over 20 years has a pronounced American accent. He probably till sounds British to the Americans, however. On the other hand, nordestinos moving to SP could also influence the SP accent. I'm pretty sure NY accents were altered by the various immigrants who moved there.
“impregnating clothes with liquid cocaine”
Is that common in Brazil? Your office seems to have had more exciting conversations than mine... Did the woman get any other words wrong?
“both languages were taught simultaneously”
If you were learning to read & write in two languages at once, did you find one easier than the other? And wasn't it confusing being told letters corresponded to different sounds in each language? I found some research that said it takes children in the UK 3 years to reach the level that those learning other European languages get to in 1. Apparently Portuguese and French are a bit harder than average, too.
Re the video, when I turned on the subtitles they mostly didn't match the dialogue and made no sense, probably because the real software also could not understand Scottish accents.
RE Who/whom, I generally don't notice if someone uses 'who' in place of 'whom', but it sounds very wrong the other way around. I did see that you also use 'whom', but you're doing it right, unlike the ostentatious imbecile.
“I say 'Silva' using the Portuguese pronunciation”
That's cheating. I could distinguish them by emphasising the last syllable, but usually it would just be a schwa. I'm guessing you can hear the difference between those Spanish words I mentioned, though?
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