MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Bolsonaro says documentary on the downfall of ex president Rousseff is rubbish
Brazil's President Jair Bolsonaro on Tuesday dismissed an Oscar-nominated Netflix documentary about the 2016 impeachment of leftist ex-leader Dilma Rousseff as “rubbish.” Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesHe got that right !
Jan 15th, 2020 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And the lefties are breaking their elbows trying to pat themselves on the back....laughable.
Have you watched it?
Jan 16th, 2020 - 03:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wouldn't waste my time......it tells her story from the PT's point of view....so I know it's a load of shit....like the film on Lula, years ago....all the facts were twisted, making him out to be the greatest statesman that ever lived....ughh...
Jan 16th, 2020 - 09:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I thought not, and I'm sure Bolsonaro hasn't either.
Jan 18th, 2020 - 09:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Re Bolivia
If you look back in the archives from during the Bolivian election, you'll see me saying Morales should not have stood for a 4th term. I don't think a leader sticking around too long is ever a good thing, and banning Morales from running again (following the constitution) is the one thing the current government have done that I agree on. But as for his 3rd term, he did consult the voters and won with a large majority... we've been through this already.
As for 1st world vs Latin America, maybe you wouldn't have such shitty politicians all the time if you held them to higher standards and stopped making excuses for them.
DT
Jan 18th, 2020 - 10:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If you look back in the archives from during the Bolivian election, you'll see me saying Morales should not have stood for a 4th term”.
Ok, all's good.....but he should not have gone for a 3rd, either....it was not foressen in the Bolivian Constitution....until he got it changed (to suit his personal ambition).
By “consulting the voters”, do you mean a public referendum to see if the people wanted the constitution changed (to allow a 3rd term), OR, the result of the election itself ?
“Making excuses for them?” that's funny - I'm not making excuses for Brazil's (and other 's) shitty politicians.....I am perfectly capable of changing my opinion about someone after seeing (enough) shit I don't agree with....which includes far more than simple ideology.
“Holding them to high standards” is virtually impossible in Latin America, and I don't defend politicians just because I may have voted for them - which at the time I did, looked like the best, or the least worse option. It usually comes down to options, which is self-explanatory.
What I'm getting at, is that it's no use holding Latin America to European standards of decency, or whatever you want to call it, and expect them to do the right thing...generally speaking, you'll be right most of the time, if you expect them to fcuk up (to a greater or lesser extent).
I read on Wikipedia that Morales's third term was due to a loophole; the new constitution allows for 2 terms, but his first term was under the old constitution and thus not counted. Kinda dodgy, but at least it's a one time thing and does not allow any president to stay in power indefinitely. Whereas for the attempt at a 4th he first held a referendum to change the constitution, and lost it (very sensible of the voters IMO) and then got the Supreme Court to remove the term limits. That's why I was so against it, besides wondering if he was going to try and stay in power indefinitely like Putin, Erdogan etc.
Jan 19th, 2020 - 12:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0And by consulting the voters I meant the result of the election itself; they had the option to vote for the opposition or stay at home if they really objected, but he won a large majority. Not so this time, Morales struggled to get a 10 point lead which means there was a large swing against him. I reckon Bolivians also object to an eternal president.
You didn't vote for Añez or any Bolivian politician, probably never heard of any of them before November, so no reason to defend them. But you kind of are, saying I shouldn't judge them based on their actions so far. The leftist governments are also in Latin America, and can't be held to European standards either by your argument. If Maduro lets the police shoot protesters, should I ignore it because things are different there?
DT
Jan 19th, 2020 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“the new constitution allows for 2 terms, but his first term was under the old constitution and thus not counted””
Well, the loophole was definitely a very subjective interpretation of the Law / Constitution ....elected end 2005, for a 5 year term, it becomes, at least, a bit suspicious when a referendum is called mid 2008, validating his new term, in effect the 2nd, from 2009 /13 inclusive, all approved by the Supreme Court, filled with Morales' cronies.
If the new Constitution (2009) did not explicitely establish that his 1st term didn't count - which if it had, would not require any subjective interpretation or 'loophole' later on, to consider the term that started in 2009 (in effect, the 2nd), as his first one.....thus the manipulation of the Constitution, in which the voters had no say...(making his 3rd term in fact, only his 2nd).
It is clear that the Supreme Court would approve whatever he wanted....and to change the Constitution whenever it suited him.
“And by consulting the voters I meant the result of the election itself;”....that's what I thought.
I am not defending Añez, but you're right, never heard of her before....what I'm defending is simply what Bolivia's Constitution says when the Prez leaves and the 2nd, 3rd and 4th in the line of succession resign....i.e, an interim government, headed presumably by the highest-ranking official left, and free elections in 90 days. Nothing more.
It's not a matter of ignoring the shooting of protesters etc, and I don't defend that at all, no matter the government's ideological orientation, am just stating a fact....what happens in S.America - including changing the Constitution for personal benefit - is unlikely to happen in Europe, and it's no use saying what LatAm governments should do, or should not do, based on how Europeans would deal with similar political issues.
I believe it was said at the time that the new constitution would allow Morales a third term, but he promised not to stand again. And after being elected for a 3rd time, he said he would not seek a 4th term... so much for promises. But I still see the 4th term as much more serious, because he had the constitution changed to remove term limits entirely, potentially allowing him to stay in power indefinitely, and after voters already rejected the idea in a referendum. None of that happened for his 3rd term.
Jan 20th, 2020 - 05:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Añez became Interim President according to the constitutional rules of succession, though the resignations of those above her were not entirely voluntary (hence people calling it a coup). And the 90 days expires in February while elections are not scheduled until May, so they are not fulfilling the conditions, but at least they have a date set now.
Unfortunately bad governments are not unknown in Europe, eg Poland where the government is busy rigging the supreme court, and the constitutional changes passed in Hungary: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21748878 . But if you want your government to be more like those in western Europe, wouldn't it make sense to see what they do differently and use that as a guide? And besides that, even in Latin America different countries and governments differ in how they deal with protesters. Argentina is famous for demonstrations but you don't hear of people getting blinded like is happening now in Chile. And there have been plenty of protests in Brazil, some of them violent. How many protesters were shot with real bullets by the army? Conditions are different but that doesn't mean you should give up and say anything goes.
DT
Jan 20th, 2020 - 07:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well, what do you think Morales' objective with all the 'manipulation' was ? definitely not the alternation of power.....something the Bolivarian regimes (and Foro de SP supporters) have a bit of a problem with..
If those above Añez opted to resign and get the hell out, it's pretty clear that they feared being tried and imprisoned....if they were 100% honest, should've stayed and taken their chances...and IF they had been honest, unlikely they would have made themselves targets.
The fact Congress has established new elections for May 3rd, while they've not complied with the 90 days (perhaps impractical considering the mess), it is still pretty significant for Latin America....now let's see if the elections are carried out properly....Morales has already convinced himself and his cronies, that it won't....let's wait.
Poland 'n Hungary are probably still suffering from the Soviet occupation, 'n haven't had time to lose bad habits.
“But if you want your government to be more like those in western Europe, wouldn't it make sense to see what they do differently and use that as a guide?”
Obviously....but the great majority of our politicians aren't in the least interested in doing what's right...their only desire is to gain power and steal....something many voters have difficulty in accepting, and continue to elect the worst shit possible...as I've said before, it's a matter of opting for the least bad.
“ How many protesters were shot with real bullets by the army?”, in Brazil, zero....because the army has not been called out to quell protests. And some protests do get completely out of hand, with protesters burning buses and destroying property...so what is the Police meant to do ? try to negotiate with a bunch of masked vandals 'n criminals ?
No one plans “anything goes”....things go escalating and eventually the police become more violent as well....I've seen it happen more than once, don't rely on journalists possibly inaccurate account of events.
I don't know what Morales was thinking, but he presumably agreed to the term limits in the first place. Maybe he changed his mind when it came time to leave power, perhaps he was influenced by what happened in Ecuador (Lenin Morano was elected as successor to Rafael Correa, but after taking power totally changed his platform and tried to have his former ally arrested).
Jan 20th, 2020 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If they were 100% honest, should've stayed and taken their chances”
In Latin America? Now you're the one forgetting it's not Europe; judges can be corrupted just as easily as politicians.
Sounds like the Brazilian government were able to deal with violent protests without calling in the army, or using real bullets. Even in Lat Am some governments are better than others... passing a law giving the police immunity in advance is pretty much planning for “anything goes”, don't you think?
We can agree elections are often a matter of choosing the least bad, but are never going to agree on who that is. For me trying to avoid violence against one's own citizens, and working with the opposition instead of persecuting them are high on the list. And there are people in Brazil who agree with me, I can see them thanks to the magic of the Internet.
Re Poland and Hungary, probably institutions are weaker due to the short time under democracy. But IMO they are the vanguard of the populist right, entrenching themselves in power and using anyone different as a scapegoat for their country's problems. I can only hope more established democracies like the UK and US are able to withstand these influences.
DT
Jan 21st, 2020 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The bottom line with Morales is that he let his personal ambition - thinking he was God's gift to the Bolivians - dictate his actions....took some time, but eventually he got his just deserts.
“In Latin America? Now you're the one forgetting it's not Europe; judges can be corrupted just as easily as politicians.”
Well, you're probably right about that, with regards to Bolivia (and VZ)....but I'm pretty sure they were all guilty of whatever they might have eventually been accused of, had they stayed. In Brazil, with some of the STF judges bending over backwards to protect known corrupt officials, I don't think they'd have much to worry about.
Despite Brazil's problems, my perception is that Judiciary branch here is less likely to permit “arbitrary” decisions to be taken against corrupt officials...
Regarding “passing a law giving the police immunity in advance is pretty much planning for “anything goes”, don't you think?”
Yeah, it would probably ecourage unnecessary violence....but no such law was passed here.
“can agree elections are often a matter of choosing the least bad, but are never going to agree on who that is”.....when voter subjectivity eliminates the possibility of them accepting what is public knowledge, then yes.....but if people are able to keep their minds open, and make a point of checking out their candidate's background and history, most bad ones would eventually be excluded.
Since you mentioned “there are people in Brazil who agree with me”, I'm curious to know who you think they are.....I ask, because the opposition here, namely PCdoB, PT, PSOL and a few other small parties, absolutely refuse to vote for anything the Executive branch proposes, no matter what, as a matter of principle. Instead of trying to impress the people with positive actions, their policy is 'the worse, the better', for them...they don't care whether the people suffer in the process.
Re POL/HUN, agree, less democratic tradition, easier to be derailed.
“The bottom line with Morales is that he let his personal ambition... dictate his actions”
Jan 22nd, 2020 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0I think that's true, and common enough among leaders sadly. I still believe he wanted to help ordinary Bolivians (and did for many years) and wasn't just out for himself unlike so many politicians in Brazil, but it's kind of in the nature of the job. No one who isn't ambitious and at least a little arrogant is going to put themselves forward to be president.
I suspect officials in Bolivia were pretty safe as long as their own party remained in power, whether guilty or not. But with the opposition running things now, I don't believe they can expect fair treatment or a fair trial, whether innocent or not. Brazil is significantly richer than Bolivia and does have stronger institutions IMO, though it has its own problems.
“... no such law was passed here”
Indeed, even though Brazil has also suffered violent protests. It wasn't passed by Morales either, when there were protests after the election, although it might have helped him keep power. But it was passed by the interim government. For sure it could encourage unnecessary violence, and probably did, it's a major reason I'm so down on them.
When I said people who agreed with me, I meant ordinary people on forums and such, who may not think the PT, PSOL etc represent them, but might vote for them sometimes depending on other options. Re always voting against the executive, I noticed Trump's revised trade deal with Canada and Mexico was passed by the Senate 90-10, which means a majority of Democrats voted in favour. Shows they don't have the same policy, since they'll cooperate when it's not an issue that conflicts with their basic principles.
DT
Jan 22nd, 2020 - 05:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“...and wasn't just out for himself unlike so many politicians in Brazil, but it's kind of in the nature of the job”
Still think that's very condescending of you...“wasn't just out for himself”...so it's ok to excuse him because besides looking after “himself” ($$$ ?), he did 'something ' for the people ? I'm sure that Europeans in general, wouldn't accept a prime minister whom they found out had “looked out for himself - 'just a bit' - despite 'the nature of the job' ”. If people know they are dishonest, why are they re-elected ? Because too many people are stupid.
Unforunately in LatAm, voters are not discerning enough...they (mostly the poor) are easily misled. We agree it's usually a case of voting for the least bad, given the options, but even despite the history of the worst options, many are re-elected, over 'n over again.
“... even though Brazil has also suffered violent protests”....just a reminder...99% of them promoted by the left - most people don't even really know 'why' they are protesting, but they've been recruited, promised a sandwich and a bit of cash to join in.. and usually bussed to the location. The anti-left protests which I've been to - quite a few - are peaceful...on two occasions, small groups of petistas wearing red T-shirts and waving flags tried to invade / silence the speakers ..and people got violent, until the police intervened and forced the petistas to clear off. But the PT had attained their objective.
Although I'm no admirer of the democrats, have to admit that when it's in the country's national interest, most band together with the Republicans.
The PSOL/PT attract mainly radical politicians and misinformed /uninformed voters, and it's easy to understand why some Brazilians support them, generally the less educated (than US voters, which not much better) looking for a free lunch and who don't really understand what is at stake.
”so it's ok to excuse him because besides looking after “himself” ($$$ ?)“
Jan 22nd, 2020 - 08:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Didn't intend to imply Morales was stealing money, never heard that he was. Obviously he wanted personal power, that's what I meant by the nature of the job. Someone who isn't interested in power isn't going to put themselves forward to be president.
”I'm sure that Europeans in general, wouldn't accept a prime minister whom they found out had “looked out for himself“
Cough*Berlusconi*cough. And people in Latin America seem to think they can't do better, what with it not being Europe and all.
”most people don't even really know 'why' they are protesting“
Is this something you saw in the media, or have you been to left-wing protests and talked to people? Seems a little convenient as a way to dismiss the viewpoint of large numbers of people...
”and people got violent, until the police intervened and forced the petistas to clear off.”
Sounds like you were lucky they didn't just start teargassing the crowd. Or maybe not. Maybe the police are a little more careful not to mistreat richer, better educated protesters who know their rights and can afford to hire lawyers?
It's natural for the poor to vote for the left and the rich for the right, that's how the two sides were formed in the first place. Its more notable when it's the other way around.
DT
Jan 23rd, 2020 - 03:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Didn't intend to imply Morales was stealing money, never heard that he was”.
Yeah, just like Maduro...what does the world REALLY know about what Maduro, like Hugo Chaves before him, has stolen ? how do you think Morales is supporting himself in Argentina ? and to make a comeback - as he himself has declared he will - where is the money going to come from, his piggy-bank ?
“Cough*Berlusconi*cough”...agree....BUT, Berlusconi, is Italian...cough, cough, i.e., Latin !
Perhaps I should have been more specific...the UK for ex. ? Germany ?
I have seen it in the media, have spoken to people in the poorer social classes, and in the latter case, when you come across a leftist supporter, they are nearly always unable to explain why they support x,y or z ...except for the usual ”ah but look what Lula did for the poor (Bolsa familia)“....when asked to expand, they don't know their ass from their elbow. When confronted with Lula's conviction, most have no idea of the details, yet blindly support him...when asked what Bolsonaro has done to make their lives more difficult - which is what they allege - they can't name one thing...so, I conclude they are ignorant of the facts and have been somewhat brainwashed.
If they had an opinion which they could back up with plausible arguments, great, I wouldn't ”dismiss“ their viewpoints, because the lamentable truth is that most don't have thought out, well-fundamented opinions...and a person in that situation, is vulnerable to manipulation by unscrupulous politicians.
When the police expelled the Petistas from the anti-left protests, they knew damed well who they were dealing with...a great majority of people who do not support gratuitious violence. No one was going to start overturning cars and smashing shop windows.
Your ”Maybe police little more careful not to mistreat richer, better educated protesters..”
Perhaps, but also because they know they aren't dealing with lowlife vandals.
May take time, but not all poor are blind.
“how do you think Morales is supporting himself in Argentina ?”
Jan 24th, 2020 - 02:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No idea. I read that the ruling party in Mexico did a whip-round after he arrived there in order to pay for his living costs, but he must have some money of his own. If nothing else he's been paid a salary for the last 14 years with his living costs covered too. Money for campaigning would come from donations.
If you rule out Latin countries and formerly communist ones there isn't that much of Europe left... I don't know about Germany, but here in the UK we had the Cash for Questions scandal: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cash-for-questions-mps-suspended-by-commons-1616440.html . As you can see, their party continued to support them, and one of the two MPs mentioned was reelected afterwards.
You haven't spoken to anyone who attended a protest for a sandwich, then? Just people who don't have much knowledge of the issues? It's funny, the more educated people I know mostly lean left and the less educated are more variable. I've got one coworker who supports Brexit and he also thinks Britain would be better off with a dictator!
“lowlife vandals”
That attitude explains a lot about why police treat protesters so harshly in Lat Am... do you think the same of the yellow vest protesters in France?
DT
Jan 24th, 2020 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“but he must have some money of his own.” I'm sure he does, but legally obtained ?
“Money for campaigning would come from donations.”...you've got a point...but again, who, with cash to throw away would support a Morales comeback ? most likely those who expected recognition 'n special favours after / IF he regained power....This “ I'll help you, you help me ” is as old as the hills, and I'm aware that it will never cease, because they are all intrinsically dishonest, and can't resist the temptation when it presents itself.
Your link on the 'Cash for Questions scandal' “But while the Commons last night approved without a division a Privileges Committee finding that the two men had fallen ”below the standards which the Commons is entitled to expect from its members“, 156 Tory MPs - including 20 ministers - last night wrote to Mr Riddick's constituency party expressing confidence in the MP's ”honesty and propriety”.
Just a bunch of rogues, but not surprising they'd let them off with rap on the knuckles...perhaps the party decided it would be best in order to avoid the two from throwing shit in the fan ? in this case, the fact one of them was re-elected, proves people are idiots.
No, confess I haven't spoken to a protester who went to a political rally for a sandwich....but knowing that they are 'recruited' for the occasion (by the leftist unions) is pretty much proof they don't know why they are there....other than for the sandwich and cash.
If you have good arguments to support your views, whatever they are, fine, because both sides can contribute with good things, but neither has to go overboard, and need to meet in middle.
The more violent the protest, the more violent the police reaction...pretty normal cause 'n effect, to me. As for the yellow vests in France, their demands weren't absurd, (lower gas prices, tax restructuring etc), 'n while the majority of protesters were peaceful, some went crazy (burning cars), causing strong police reaction.
“who, with cash to throw away would support a Morales comeback ?”
Jan 24th, 2020 - 11:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Unions? Coca growers? Ordinary members if there are a lot of them. There probably are a few rich people who support him. That's where our Labour party get their money (not from coca growers, pretty sure that's not economic here, although surprisingly the UK is the world's largest exporter of legal cocaine... all 60kg per year).
“perhaps the party decided it would be best in order to avoid the two from throwing shit in the fan ?”
Or they just didn't care. I think there's a lot more corruption in high places than we know about. The child sex abuse scandal shows how much the powerful were able to get away with decades. As for elections, the FPTP system makes people reluctant to switch their vote to a different party, even if they strongly dislike the candidate. Another MP, Neil Hamilton, involved in the scandal was voted out, but only because an independent stood against him as an anti-sleaze candidate and Labour and the lib Dems agreed to withdraw their own candidates to avoid splitting the vote.
When I went to the protest against the Iraq war it was on a coach arranged by my neighbour, who happened to be head of the student Socialist Worker Party. Didn't make me a socialist. There were no free sandwiches, but we were handed placards by the Daily Mirror. Just cause some group is arranging things doesn't mean people aren't there because they believe in the cause.
The yellow vests are protesting pension reforms right now, funnily enough. Things aren't so very different in Europe.
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