MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Bolsonaro presents controversial bill opening indigenous lands mostly in the Amazon
Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro introduced a controversial Bill that opens up indigenous lands, many of them in the Amazon, to mining, agricultural activities and hydraulic energy production. The conservative president described the measure, which still needs approval in Congress, as a “dream” while indigenous leaders have labelled it a “genocide Bill.” Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesTWIMC...
Feb 07th, 2020 - 09:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0Interesting to see how MercoPress intrinsically backs all of Bolsonaros initiatives against them Indians..., yet does its utmost to protect them Indian ladies privacy..., by chosing a picture with their boobies masked...
That's what I call “Knowing ones Priorities”...!
Mercopress is just repeating a story from Agence France-Presse:
Feb 07th, 2020 - 10:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0https://www.afp.com/en/news/15/brazils-bolsonaro-proposes-bill-opening-indigenous-land-mining-doc-1oq6b55
You really think the French news agency is biased in favour of Bolsonaro?
Mercopress is just “MODIFYING” a story from Agence France-Presse...
Feb 07th, 2020 - 12:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Turnip...
You're just sad because they hid the boobies.
Feb 07th, 2020 - 05:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Meanwhile the Amazon is being cut down faster than ever, and the indigenous people are as Brazilian as the poor, hungry and uneducated masses they are likely to be joining when their homes are taken by mining companies and agribusinesses...
It brings again the egalitarian Marxist concept of redistributing disportunate large land holdings of a small minority of the Brazilian population. After all, “logic clearly dictates the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”
Feb 07th, 2020 - 11:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you trying to troll an auld trout..., Shicuréo...?
Feb 08th, 2020 - 12:06 am - Link - Report abuse +1If so..., you should educate yourself about the bait you're using...
https://monthlyreview.org/2020/02/01/marx-and-the-indigenous/
Ps...:
If you ever made it to Treuorum..., you won't regret it...;-)
Estimado THINK
Feb 08th, 2020 - 02:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'm surprised you didn't catch my misspelling of “disproportionate” but your attached article was an incredibly long read that did not reflect the feverent promoters of the U.P. in 1972 in the Aconcagua Valley.
Land redistribution is essential in Marxist philosophy. (Also curiously that of a fictional character named Spock in an American television series.)
BTW: After reading the Monthy Review, I didn't have the brain capacity to explore “Treuorum” due to excessive Cabernet overconsumption...
Shicuréo...
Feb 08th, 2020 - 10:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Misspelling”..., you say...?
More of a Portmanteau..., I did Think...
BTW...
I don't believe for a second you read the whole article..., milico...;-)
Try next time with an Argie Torrontés..., good for looong reads... (its dry fruitiness is gentler on them neurones...)
Chicureo
Feb 08th, 2020 - 12:19 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Why is it that people who support foreign companies or rich individuals owning huge tracts of land suddenly don't care about property rights when the owners are indigenous people?
DT
Feb 09th, 2020 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“...alarming” - why, ‘cause they might put some sense into people’s heads ?
The STF judges who habitually favor criminals (ex, granting endless HCs’: Toffoli, Mendes, Lewandoswki) are very quick to curb freedom of speech when it might threaten “their” reputations ; Lewandoski sued a passenger on a flight who asked him why he was corrupt ‘n called him a thief ; Mendes sued a TV artist who publicly voiced her disagreement with him, ‘n insinuated he favors his friends ; he also refused to recuse him when ruling on an HC in favor of his son’s father in law (Jacó Barata, aka “king of the busses” in Rio’s highly corrupt public transport system; Toffoli acted extremely offended when a prosecutor demanded he recuse himself from ruling on a case being defended by his wife’s law firm, 'n even more so when it became public that his wife’s firm gave him ‘pocket money’(R$ 100,000/mth)...he said it was irrelevant etc ; it is those, plus Morais who decided that speaking out against them was punishable by law...in other words ‘censorship’ when the issue involved any of them ; What's “funny” is that ‘they’ invade Congress’s jurisdiction when they ‘legislate’ to defend themselves.
Dilma's impeachment : Lewandoski deliberately ignored the Constitution (when he accepted PMDB’s Renan Calheiros’ suggestion to divide the vote into 2, thus permitting her to maintain her political rights. (the clause is unambiguously explicit,’n direct : ‘if impeached, no political rights for 8 yrs’).
What you consider “colluding” has two sides to it…when defense lawyers 'n STF judges get together to discuss their client’s case, it is not colluding ; when Moro discussed a few things with Dallagnol, it’s a crime.
Google “Leia a conversa entre um dos hackers e o jornalista Glenn Greenwald”. Pay attn to lines 41-47 incl, where GG strongly “insinuates” that would be best if the hacker got rid of the conversations. Why ‘Rede’? being left, maybe to help him; perhaps to give it an air of legitimacy ? dunno.
JB
Feb 10th, 2020 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, because they might put a bunch of lies and crazy conspiracy theories into their heads.
The STF judges sound like big old hypocrites, but you said nothing Moro had done was a crime, and he hasn't been charged with anything. If STF judges talking to defence lawyers is public knowledge and nothing has happened, presumably that's not a crime either. Should it be?
“when it became public that his wife’s firm gave him ‘pocket money’”
How did it become public? Were any of the journalists who published the info charged with a crime?
As for the conversations, I can't see anything wrong with what Glenn said to the hacker, but I'm not a lawyer. He is, though...
IIRC, Rede is one of the few parties in Congress that doesn't have tons of corruption allegations against them. Perhaps they really do care about press freedom?
DT
Feb 10th, 2020 - 05:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Looks like you've convinced yourself it was all a big conspiracy ; the spirit behind the (relatively modest) media campaign was to clarify the public's doubts, as well as its' misconceptions (necry to counteract lies spread by the opposition) 'n to ensure the public understood the reform was essential...govt did not need to lie to the public, essentially because it was Congress that needed convincing.
“but you said nothing Moro had done was a crime”....simply because it is not
What I'm getting at is, it's a notorious fact that defense lawyers meet freely with STF (and other) judges all the time - with absolutely no visible consequences - so, I can only conclude it's not a crime....and in comparison, what Moro is being “accused of” - (only) by the opposition and GG (naturally) - wouldn't even be classified as a misdemeanor.
Toffoli's pocket money became public knowledge 2nd half 2018; was published in many sites / big circulation newspapers. Afaik, no charges levied against anyone, as it was official info. Apparently it began shortly after his wife's law practise became VERY successful in Brasilia (wonder why ?)
The value of the monthly transfers raised a red flag at Toffoli's bank, 'n despite one of the bank's directors trying to withhold the information, eventually it was reported to the COAF (as the law demanded).
When he realized it could screw him, AND Flavio B requested an injunction to stop the investigation against him, Toffoli not only granted it but extended it to all 935 ongoing COAF investigations. He ruled that information on financial transactions could only be reported by banks to the COAF 'n IRS (for further investigation) after being authorized by the STF.
Smell fishy ?
In Dec 2019 it was overturned by a majority in the STF (6 x 5).
You didn't think GG was trying to get the hacker to destroy the evidence, w/o saying as much ? OK, then forget it.
Whether Rede was in cahoots or not, with GG, don't know, but it is opposition to B & Moro.
Jack Bauer Proof less, Truth less, & Psychological Transferee
Feb 10th, 2020 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Google “Leia a conversa ....” “insinuates” means you can infer what you wish. There is nothing in that alleged conversation that criminally implicates Greenwald.
“An investigation by the federal police, which identified and arrested the hacker, had already cleared Mr. Greenwald, and a Supreme Court justice had declared that publishing the messages was protected under the Brazilian Constitution.
Mr. Greenwald said he had “exercised extreme caution as a journalist never even to get close to any participation” in the hacking; he also noted that the complaint was brought by the same prosecutor who had earlier tried, and failed, to prosecute the head of the Brazilian bar association for criticizing Mr. Moro.”
https://www.leaderherald.com/opinion/editorials/2020/01/brazil-calls-greenwalds-reporting-a-crime/
Not a conspiracy, just corrupt like nearly everything in Brazil. And if these presenters are friends of Bolsonaro they're probably spreading all kinds of myths and blaming certain groups for all the country's problems. That's what the far-right do.
Feb 10th, 2020 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”it's a notorious fact that defense lawyers meet freely with STF (and other) judges all the time”
If this is normal for Brazil, then why were Moro and the prosecutors so upset about their dealings becoming public? Even claiming the logs 'might' have been altered? Except that they were supposed to be different, the crusaders against corruption, not just more powerful people using their positions for their own ends, political and monetary. They thought that themselves, that's why some were so annoyed at Moro taking a job in Bolso's government.
Re Toffoli, how odd that he should end up being an ally to Flavio. Corruption makes strange bedfellows. Glad to hear the full court overturned the decision.
GG told the hacker he could delete the logs if he wanted, but that wouldn't destroy all the evidence. And he wasn't guiding him in what info to get or encouraging him to hack more people, which I understand would be a crime.
Re Rede, good for them being in favour of press freedom and rule of law. Few in Brazil are. When Alexandre de Moraes tried to censor O Antagonista and ordered them to take down an article, the Intercept reproduced it in full, despite disagreeing with the content. Now the tables are turned, O Antagonista is far from displaying the same principles.
DT
Feb 11th, 2020 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Not a conspiracy, just corrupt like nearly everything in Brazil”...you're getting the idea, but next step is to learn how to separate the wheat fm the chaff ; 'n, the presenters aren't B's 'friends'..were picked based on their far-reaching influence.
“That's what the far-right do”...and you believe YOU're not 'somewhat' prejudiced against anything that is not left ? If so, then tell me why Lula, corrupt, leftist president, is referred to only as 'president', while Bolsonaro is always “far-right' pres ? it's amazing how Europeans gobble up the media's bias.
”...then why were Moro & the prosecutors so upset about their dealings becoming public?“
You've missed the point completely...Defense lawyers 'n judges consider contents of 'their' meetings confidential....'n no one hacked into their phones, then made their dealings public knowledge ; if they had, believe me, there'd be all hell to pay....'n as far as ”logs 'might' have been altered”, this makes it even worse, as it would be tantamount to tampering with proof to make a stronger case (sound legal to you ?)
“they were supposed to be different, the 'crusaders against corruption' ”...funny you should say that...Lula was elected based on exactly that claim...(altho I knew it to be a lie)
For once 'n for all, B never even met Moro before the election, other than one very brief encounter at an airport, when Moro was greeted by B, then went on his way...the fact B appointed him is clearly because he admired him/ wanted someone with his reputation (clean and a no-nonsense judge) to head the Justice dept.
Clearly, powerful but corrupt businessmen 'n politicians felt threatened by Moro's appointment, who wouldn't if they were corrupt ?
GG wanted to the hacker to delete everything, but avoided asking him to, outright, to be able to claim plausible deniability...'n GG said he had copies, 'very well hidden'....
Briefly, Moraes censored O Antagonista for reporting what was already public knowledge. He later retracted.
I thought you said he picked those presenters because the rest of the press was against him (understandably, IMO)?
Feb 11th, 2020 - 09:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yeah, I'm 'prejudiced' against people who want to treat me and/or my family and friends as second class citizens. Is that a surprise? And wanting to bring back the military rule is a far-right idea, that's why Bolsonaro is described as such.
Re the leaks, I don't believe for a minute that anything was changed. Moro etc thought they were private, and deleted everything when the Intercept starting publishing; they couldn't be sure whether they might have crossed a line and done something illegal. So to cover their asses they claimed the logs might have been altered. And I never said Moro met B before the election. IMO his goal was to stop Lula being reelected, not to put B specifically into power. Getting made Justice Minister was just a bonus.
If conversations between judges and defence lawyers were leaked, then quite likely they'd react the same way. The same laws should apply, though.
“Lula was elected based on exactly that claim”
So was Bolsonaro. How's LJ going now? The other cases? I saw the senate rejected making Eduardo US ambassador. Who wouldn't feel threatened by Moro's appointment is an interesting question. Flavio B, for one. B's party, perhaps. How much investigation has there been of the PSL, before and after B quit?
Why d'you think GG wanted the hacker to delete everything? It was going to be published anyway.
Re Moraes, I reckon the bad reaction was a big part of the reason he retracted. But that wasn't my point. GG supported a free press even when it was a right-wing outlet publishing something he had no sympathy with. He's not just doing it for partisan reasons.
DT
Feb 12th, 2020 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, I didn't say that...but why pick people who habitually criticized the govt ?
“Yeah, I'm 'prejudiced' against people who want to treat me, my family, friends, as 2nd class citizens. That a surprise?”
No surprise, but when you claimed “that's what the far right do”, we were discussing presenters (who aren’t B’s ‘friends” - ‘n only hired to clarify misconceptions due to fake news spread by the opposition), so what has that got to do with your 'feeling' you're being attacked / regarded as a 2nd class citizen ? why do YOU feel attacked ?
And last but not least, WHOEVER said Bolsonaro wants to bring back military rule ? GROSS disinformation.
“..don't believe for a minute anything was changed”. Ok, that’s yr prerogative, however, as many texts were not recognized, as divulged, it does raise the possibility tt they were altered.
“…same laws should apply” …(seems to be a legal vacuum there), so yeah, same “principles” should apply… if defense lawyers can meet to with judges to discuss their cases, ‘n expect those conversations to remain confidential, why shouldn’t Moro & the prosecutors ?
When Lula was first accused by the MPF he wasn't even a pre-candidate...only decided to when he became uncomfortable / realized he needed immunity against prosecution. Just follow the time-line (posted loooong ago).
A bonus for Moro ?...doubt he saw it that way, but not surprised his enemies (the left) insist on it.
“So was Bolsonaro”....true, but remember this was after the 'mensalão', 'Petrolão' 'n other 'ões', all promoted by the PT, 'n the 'honesty' card was never pushed as hard by anyone as by Lula. The 1st 'n only to claim he was the most honest person in the world...look what happened.
Bolsonaro avoided appointing career politicians...to try to curb corruption...on the Fed level, a lot has been.
The LJ's slowed down, tks to the legal 'imbroglio' caused by Toffoli
Perhaps GG wanted only his (altered?) version to exist?
Moraes retracted 'cause he was 'wrong'.
“why pick people who habitually criticized the govt ?”
Feb 12th, 2020 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Giving taxpayers' money to only those outlets that support the government is a little too close to bribing them? Isn't that what you complained about Lula doing?
I was thinking of the far right here, as well as other countries. They always find a scapegoat to blame problems on; muslims, gays, or feminists, or the most traditional target: jews.
“WHOEVER said Bolsonaro wants to bring back military rule ?”
Some news sites, after Eduardo suggested passing a new AI-5 in Brazil if there were protests like in Chile, and Olavo de Carvalho said “Só uma coisa pode salvar o Brasil: a união indissolúvel de povo, presidente e Forças Armadas.”
Bolsonaro has made no secret of the fact he approves the dictatorship, and they are the people he listens to.
“same “principles” should apply”
If someone leaked the meetings with defence lawyers, the press could report them and get the same protection as GG - or should be able to.
RE Lula, was obvious from the leaked conversations they wanted to stop him/his party getting elected again. Trying to deny interviews etc. And as for Moro, can't see why he wouldn't be happy being offered the job of Justice Minister. Wasn't he thinking of going into politics anyway?
“The LJ's slowed down, tks to the legal 'imbroglio' caused by Toffoli”
Strange that Toffoli didn't slow it down earlier, when it could have kept Lula out of jail... there must be more to it than that.
DID the hacker(s) delete their copy of the conversations?
“Moraes retracted 'cause he was 'wrong'.”
Crusoe published a document leaked by the LJ investigation, something that was supposed to be private. And the Intercept supported Crusoe/O Antagonista because GG and the rest believe in press freedom.
https://www.oantagonista.com/brasil/glenn-greenwald-condena-censura-a-crusoe/
O Anta have changed their views on both Glenn and freedom of the press substantially since then...
DT
Feb 13th, 2020 - 06:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Giving taxpayers' money to outlets...doing etc”? Indeed, don’t defend spending taxes on propaganda - whatever govt does should be measured by results. This however was of public interest /to combat fake news;
Just to get things in proportion, B spent R$ 37 mi. PT admins, even considering the variety of initiatives, spent (stole?) R$ 11 Billion in 6 years, 50 times more /yr.
As far as scapegoats go, the left always blames anyone except themselves - but we’re talking of Brazil - even today, PT refuses to acknowledge they caused the 2014 crisis, ‘n later recession…after 14 years in power ; can YOU explain it ?
Don’t pay attn to Eduardo B, ‘n a few other extremists…their opinions are NOT shared by Jair B, nor by the military, or B’s Generals. But I’m sure your press had a field day with such comments, which were not very intelligent of him.
Bolsonaro approved of the military regime, so did I…so what’s your point ? it only occurred due to a communist ‘threat, but pls, think what you will, am not getting into it again.
Pretty sure that had the hackers presented GG with defense lawyers/judges conversations, he probably would not have published them - I’m convinced his motivation was to favor Lula / screw Moro, ‘n ‘freedom of the press’ was not top of his list, but here again, believe what you want.
“was 'obvious' fm leaked conversations they wanted to stop him getting elected again”…really ? ‘n where was that written or insinuated ?
Moro had no (long term) plans to become Minister, far less to go into politics…he only agreed to it after invited (weeks before B took over), ‘n consideration where he could be more useful.
Flavio B’s HC request gave Toffoli the opportunity to defend himself as well. There was no reason to slow the LJ down, other than to cover his ass, by preventing (1) investigations (COAF), (2) prison after 2nd conviction in collegiate court, 'n implementing ‘juiz de garantias’.
“Hackers delete their copy” ? Dunno. Only they do.
Need space
Depends if they just explained the changes, or also said they were good/fair/necessary. Sounds like the latter was included and that's propaganda, not factual.
Feb 13th, 2020 - 08:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“the left always blames anyone except themselves”
Who did they blame for the recession? And how many of those people were jailed, or killed, or had to flee the country for fear of violence?
Bolsonaro seems to be paying a lot more attention to his sons than to the generals these days. I never thought the latter would end up being the voice of sanity.
Do you approve of the military regime torturing and killing people? And think they should have murdered 30,000 like in Argentina? That's what B said.
GG's a journalist, I can't see him passing up a big scoop, knowing the hacker would just give the conversations to someone else. Why d'you think he published the Crusoe article, if not for press freedom?
Leaked convos showing the task force wanted to stop the PT winning the election:
https://theintercept.com/2019/06/09/procuradores-tramaram-impedir-entrevista-lula/
”Moro had no (long term) plans to become Minister, far less to go into politics”
You can believe that if you want. Operation Clean Hands in Italy was Moro's model, and the judge from that case went into politics... it also lead to the rise of Berlusconi, and there is still plenty of corruption in Italy today.
But if having Moro in government is such a good thing, why have the investigations slowed down instead of become wider and more efficient? Who's been convicted since Moro became a minister? By no means do all the investigations depend on the COAF.
The PF must know if the hackers still had copies. Maybe they haven't said.
Jack Bauer Proof less, Truth less, & Psychological Transferee
Feb 13th, 2020 - 10:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“It only occurred due to a communist ‘threat,” Which is an absolute lie which I have refuted many times.
“The only credited source for the so-called ‘communist-threat’ is: “Making the rounds of Brazil's major industrialists, de Paiva was able to appeal to their interests by translating his visceral hatred of communism into a simple message they could understand: Goulart wants to take away from you that which is yours. In this way, de Paiva was able to drum up close to $20,000 a month in donations. … The denial of all political rights and the suppression of working class efforts to gain a more equitable share of Brazil's enormous natural wealth give the lie to the country's “economic miracle” that foreign investors proclaim. Whatever gains Brazil can speak of are realised by only a small elite.”
Brazil and CIA by Peter Gribbin
”Inconveniently, the US can point to nothing even remotely threatening done by the Brazilian Communist Party, and early in 1964, Russian leader Khrushchev refuses even token financial aid to Goulart, not wishing to tangle with the US over the country. ” Brazil Herald, 3/6/64
DT (Previous post)
Feb 14th, 2020 - 02:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0Moraes acted in a rush, more out of emotion than reason.
Anta’s journalists are conservative in custom, but their reports are non-partisan.
GG defended Crusoé against Moraes, only because he (GG) expected some quid pro quo, as became clear after Crusoé criticized his coverage of the Moro leaks, when he went on social network, complaining that he expected them to defend him after he had defended Crusoe (fyi, most media defended it).
To me, GG has an agenda - to defend whatever might benefit him/ the left.
(New post) Don't know what they said - clarify the public's main doubts, or saying it was 'wonderful' ? but how d’you conclude it was not factual ? even if propaganda, they couldn’t afford to tell lies.
Don’t know who the PT blames but they refuse to own it. And now Lula hopes the Pope will absolve him of all his sins...and crimes.
”And how many of those people were jailed, killed, or fled the country for fear of violence? presume you mean 'those' responsible for the crisis ? if so, Lula, a few politicians ‘n executives…none were killed, fled the country (unless guilty).
“B and his sons”...agree, B should ignore them...they aren’t part of the Govt.
The Generals are quite level headed, 'n besides, they're a different generation to the military regime. As they say here ”what he (B) says, you don't write', in other words, much of what he “says” can't be taken seriously...if the press does, it‘s because they expect to benefit by it.
You keep on insisting on the 400 odd that were killed/disappeared, as if the resistance against the military was not violent...if you can’t accept that, no use discussing it further.
“can't see GG passing up a big scoop”....ah yes ? so divulging contents of private conversations btwn defence lawyers / judges wouldn't be a scoop ? Course not, it would hurt the corrupt defendants...GG published the Crusoé article after it had already been, by several outlets, not exactly breaking news.
Need space.
“Moraes acted in a rush, more out of emotion than reason.”
Feb 14th, 2020 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sounds like you must know him personally to know that... or hacked his Telegram. ;)
O Antagonista inpartial? Lol, they've been baying for Glenn's blood for months. Can't even call him by his real name. You only have to read their headlines to know what side they're on. GG posted on Twitter to point out their lack on principles in only defending press freedom when it benefits them.
I think he would publish the private conversations between defence lawyers and judges, assuming there was evidence of something dodgy and he had the whole recording. If someone did hack them they'd probably approach a different outlet, though. As for the Crusoé article, he published it only because it was censored, not because he agreed.
“Don’t know who the PT blames”
Then they didn't blame anyone, or group in particular? And no one on the right left Brazil due to threats, Moro was not charged with a crime for releasing the illegal wiretap of Lula and Dilma, or the other leaked private conversations, and the journalists who published them were not investigated by COAF?
“much of what he “says” can't be taken seriously”
That's a dangerous view to take. How do you ever know what he means and what he doesn't? Everyone who listens can believe the parts they like and ignore those they don't, but the reality might turn out to be much different. You say he should ignore his sons, but he doesn't. We don't hear much from Mourão these days.
Sounds like you do approve of the army torturing and killing people if (they think) they're communists. May as well just let the criminal gangs run the country, which they're well on the way to.
DT
Feb 14th, 2020 - 05:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(Cont last post) 'n who published the link ? GG, sowhat d'you expect ?
“Clean hands” became Moro's model to ”fight crime“, NOT to enter politics.
”Investigs slowed down”…Moro can't control the judges...and, most investigations originate fm COAF, whistle blowers a far 2nd...
I encountered Moraes at a 2015 protest, but don't know him...he was precipitated (imo), 'n later had to back down, because he had no legal basis to censor Crusoé.
Amongst others, I read O Anta every day - they usually get the news first, don't spare anyone of criticism (not even B), and...it turns out to be the truth. Don't know which reports you've seen, but they seem 'selected'...and being 'impartial', easy to understand why they don't appreciate GG's reporting, never reporting what can hurt the left.
PT may be reluctant to name anyone specifically - because they can't - but they do “insinuate”, in a noncommittal way, that FHC left them big problems, Dilma can't stop badmouthing BZL on her int'l trips (paid by the taxpayer), says B's responsible for the massive unemployment, that he's “destroyed” democracy 'n the country etc...but sounds like you too agree with her...despite the PT's “14” years in power ??
OK, who fled Brazil, due to anything other than to escape prosecution for corruption ? tell me.
“Moro not charged with crime for releasing the illegal wiretap of Lula/ Dilma”...wiretap had been authorized, but divulging this particular conversation, hours after authorization had supposedly expired, irregular perhaps, not a crime...and, was just to ruin Dilma's plan to give Lula immunity (to escape the Law)...very well done.
After listening to Brazzo politicians for decades, easy to distinguish what's bs. After seeing what he says and it doesn't go anywhere, you get a very good idea of what to take seriously.
Mourão ? perhaps you don't, we do.
“..approve of army torturing/killing people”. Don't be nuts, 'n don't take it out of context.. paranoia is getting the best of you.
“GG, sowhat d'you expect ?”
Feb 14th, 2020 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I expected you to read it, and make up your own mind. You're not going to find those conversations in O Anta... I'm curious, do they ever criticise Moro?
No news outlet is truly impartial, but some try harder than others. O Antagonista isn't even on the same continent as impartial. They get news first because they are willing to oblige the government, LJ taskforce etc by publishing what the latter want. To see headlines, I just googled 'o antagonista verdevaldo'. It's very, very obvious what their opinions are and who they support and oppose.
Re Moro, what was the point of making him 'super minister' if not to help clean up corruption? What happened to all those senators and congressmen who were accused way back in 2016?
As for the wire tap, the authorisation had expired, and it was supposed to be used as evidence, not given to the press, but I see you approve of divulging confidential information as long as it's to support an agenda you agree with.
Lots of people fled Brazil during the dictatorship, with good reason. Jean Wyllys fled after B's election due to the latter's links with the Militia. And weren't the PF supposed to be investigating him? It's been a whole year, you'd think they'd have found something by now - if there was anything to find.
It was reported that B had fallen out with Mourão and removed the latter from decision making. Has that changed?
As for the dictatorship, why else say the resistance was violent, unless you want to justify what the military did?
Jack Bauer Proof less, Truth less, & Psychological Transferee
Feb 15th, 2020 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Clean hands” became Moro's model to ”fight crime“ Absolutely false, he is the quintessential poster boy of a 'corrupt judge'.
Terry's so over dramatic. IMO Moro has done some pretty questionable things, but the 'quintessential poster boy of a corrupt judge' would be taking bribes left and right and at least have secret bank accounts in Switzerland. There was a case in America where the owner of a private juvenile detention centre was paying a judge to give long sentences to teenage offenders for minor shit like trespassing and spraying graffiti. Fucked up a lot of kids' lives. Now that's a poster boy for corruption.
Feb 15th, 2020 - 04:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0DemonTree
Feb 15th, 2020 - 05:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who acted politically with the USDOJ to prevent Lula from being reelected.
Under a proper legal system Moro would be jailed, and Lula would have been rightly exonerated. As his conviction is based solely on the ”Fruit of the poisonous tree (objection) is a legal metaphor in the United States used to describe evidence that is obtained illegally. The logic of the terminology is that if the source (the “tree”) of the evidence or evidence itself is tainted, then anything gained (the “fruit”) from it is tainted as well.“
https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree
”Presumption of innocence could not be regarded as an ‘absolute’,(Moro) he declared: it was merely a ‘pragmatic instrument’ that could be over-ridden at the will of the magistrate. Leaks to the media he celebrated as a form of ‘pressure’ on defendants, where ‘legitimate aims cannot be achieved by other methods.“
Crisis in Brazil. Perry Anderson
http: //www.brasilwire.com/bad-neighbor-a-us-hand-behind-the-sergio-moro-show/
Moro wrote an article ”In an obscure magazine way back in 2004 (in Portuguese only, titled Considerations about Mani Pulite, CEJ magazine, issue number 26, July/September 2004), where he clearly extols “authoritarian subversion of juridical order to reach specific targets ” and using the media to intoxicate the political atmosphere.“
https: //www.counterpunch.org/2016/03/08/the-brazilian-earthquake/
”Where Do You Turn When the Anti-Corruption Crusaders Are Dirty?
Brazil’s Operation Car Wash was supposed to overthrow the country’s culture of graft. Instead, it’s brought corruption into the heart of the state.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/05/opinion/lula-moro-brazil.html
“Moro wrote an article [...] titled Considerations about Mani Pulite”
Feb 15th, 2020 - 06:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh really? How about you find it and quote the bits where he extols “authoritarian subversion of juridical order to reach specific targets and using the media to intoxicate the political atmosphere.“
Voice, V0ice, Vestige, Think et al, sock-puppeteer extraordinaire and mythology major
Feb 15th, 2020 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Oh really” Not at all since I have cited a source. You got problem? Tell the author, Pepe Escobar. https://www.counterpunch.org/author/c3ava/
That's just some journalist's opinion. And you know what they say about opinions...
Feb 15th, 2020 - 07:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0DemonTree
Feb 15th, 2020 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“That's just some journalist's opinion” Which is more than just holding up, since you cannot produce a journalist with a counter narrative.
DT
Feb 15th, 2020 - 07:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0““GG, sowhat d'you expect ?”
”I expected you to read it...” (?) and what did GG have to say that's different to any other outlet, after Moraes censored Crusoé ? he only cashed in and published what the press, as whole, already knew and objected to.
O Antagonista / Crusoé, criticize Bolsonaro's lack of diplomacy, and the actions of some of his ministers...Moro, so far, has given them no reason to...to my knowledge. And believe the reason might be that when you listen to Moro you can see someone very intelligent, who takes his job seriously, and avoids saying stupid things 'n getting into useless debate...a few days ago, a lefty Congressman called him a “thug, and a gang leader” to his face...Moro simply ignored him...as he deserves to be. Now, if 'he' were to refer to any leftist Congressman like that, they'd be up in arms...
Re O antagonista / Crusoe, sorry to pop your bubble, but you are miles off mark...if you were truly infomed of what goes on here, not only what's published by the MSM, but were aware of all the small talk - a lot of which does not get reported properly -, the personalities of our political figures, their history, the implications of backstage deals which are usually ignored when they'd predudice the left, but blown out of proportion when it has the potential to look bad for the rest, you might be in a better position to make judgement.
..“point of making him 'super minister' if not to help clean up corruption? What happened to those senators / congressmen accused way back in 2016?”
You've no idea of how complicated it is for the FP/MPF to investigate past corruption...besides immunity in many cases, which delays everything, you've got a Supreme Court that is slow 'n more interested in releasing criminals. And what abt Toffoli's manoeuvres (COAF..) to make investigating difficult ?
Ah, the wire tap, if released irregularly, but to prevent (any)someone from escaping justice, then yes...regardless of ideology/ my “agenda”
Space pls.
Terry never fails to be a disappointment.
Feb 15th, 2020 - 09:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0JB
The thing I wanted you to read was where the LJ prosecutors talked about how to stop Lula giving a press interview before the election, because they thought it would help Haddad... and they succeeded:
https://theintercept.com/2019/06/09/procuradores-tramaram-impedir-entrevista-lula/
And so O Anta has not criticised Moro. The rest of the press has found things to object to in Moro's actions, and inactions, despite him talking sensibly...
The FP/MPF managed to investigate Lula. He's been convicted twice, yet the other cases are going slowly or not at all. How about Temer? He no longer has immunity, it's been over a year... this ex-president not a priority, perhaps? And there's the several ministers Temer was forced to fire because they were implicated in corruption, what happened to them? What has Moro actually done as minister to fight corruption?
“if you were truly infomed of what goes on here”
If it were subtle, perhaps I would need to be well informed. But it's really not. You could easily say which US papers support and oppose Trump, right? Without needing to live in America or have insider knowledge. As for the rest of the Brazilian press, they were happy to criticise Dilma, and all published the wiretaps of Lula. They played their part in her impeachment.
”Ah, the wire tap, if released irregularly, but to prevent (any)someone from escaping justice, then yes”
If you were a journalist, and it was handed to you by hackers instead of Moro, you would publish it?
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Feb 16th, 2020 - 12:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Terry never fails...” Hmm thats your best counter narrative? Unfortunately, you don't have the expertise of a duly competent journalist. So in short, you're devoid of an effective answer, thanks for clearing that up.
DT
Feb 16th, 2020 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(end of previous post)
“Lots of people fled Brazil during the dictatorship”…I’m discussing the ‘present’, not 1964…’n as such, only a couple of currency brokers got the hell out because they were about to be summoned for questioning on money laundering for politicians.
Regarding Wyllys, no one- except his close friends - know why he gave up his mandate (to his boyfriend)…rumor has it he was implicated in B’s being knifed (?); If he was threatened, he had the right to protection, so what’s the big deal ? Afaic, his decision was more out of convenience than necessity…’n what abt the USD 750,000, ‘n pocket money he supposedly recvd “through” GG ? Many investigations we no longer hear abt are simply under secret of justice. Be patient.
“B fallen out with Mourão” ? They never spoke publicly about any ‘falling out’…so, just gossip by the MSM to create tension between them…’n, Mourão carries on as b4.
Now, back to 64 - don’t need to justify what the military did…the self-proclaimed freedom-fighters started the violence...the army just ended it. Fullstop.
Now, can we get back to present day, as I have no desire to keep on hashing out our differences of opinion re 1964…hang on to yrs if you will, despite being born after it, nor ever experienced anything even remotely similar.
(LAST post) “…LJ prosecutors talked abt stopping Lula giving press interview etc”…Oh that ? Read aaall about it - they didn’t ‘conspire’ against Lula - was all out in the open - 'n, besides absurd, it’s illegal for convicted criminals to give interviews ; is it common in UK ?
“O anta not criticized Moro”…So ? most of the press loves to make noise, absolutely nothing reprehensible…but if you think there is, pls name it - but forget ideology, ok ?
“The FP/MPF managed investigate Lula”…you forget he was the gang-leader, ‘n with so much evidence, was relatively easy to convict him…you don’t know what’s in the pipeline, so don’t make such sweeping statements.
Need space.
Jack Bauer Proof less, Truth less, & Psychological Transferee
Feb 16th, 2020 - 06:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Self-proclaimed freedom-fighters started the violence.” No they did not, the earliest was in 1967 three years after after the Military Dictatorship was imposed.
”Judge Agamemnon Duarte indicates that the CCC [Commandos to Hunt Communists, a death squad armed and aided by the police] and the CIA are implicated in the murder of Father Henrique Neto. He admits that the American Secret Service (CIA) is behind the CCC.” Jornal do Brazil, 5/25/72
JB
Feb 16th, 2020 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If he was threatened, he had the right to protection, so what’s the big deal ?”
When your enemies are in charge of the government, and potentially have links to the ex-policemen who assassinated one of your friends, protection supplied by that same government and police may seem less than reliable. And quitting your job and moving to another continent is hardly convenient. As for the rumours, why give them any credit? B never seemed concerned.
“Many investigations we no longer hear abt are simply under secret of justice.”
We heard plenty about the investigations against Lula, there was always something in the news. (Because the LJ team wanted it that way, to damage Lula's reputation. And the MSM was happy to oblige.) But what makes you think the police are even investigating Wyllys?
Here's an article that mentions a few other people who left Brazil due to threats:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/11/brazil-political-exiles-bolsonaro
Re Mourão, there was lots of stuff like this:
www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/28/turf-war-breaks-between-bolsonaro-sons-and-brazil-vice-president
“it’s illegal for convicted criminals to give interviews”
How can it be? Lula gave one after the election, when his opponents weren't trying to block it any more. The messages show the LJ team had an agenda; they weren't only interested in justice, and ending corruption. They also aimed to stop the PT being reelected. They may or may not have done anything illegal, but it's certainly unethical, and right that people should know what's going on behind closed doors.
Anything I criticise about Moro, you'll dismiss as ideology, like OA does. That's not impartial, though.
“you forget he was the gang-leader”
He wasn't convicted of any such thing, but of accepting 'gifts' that were small change by Brazilian standards. But okay. How long should we wait before expecting results? If I check back in year, will some of these people be in jail? Two years? Five?
DT
Feb 16th, 2020 - 10:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(fm previous)
Lower courts concluded not enough evidence to indict Temer…not Moro. Other investigations are ongoing…told you to be patient.
As Justice Min, Moro tried to get laws passed to curb corruption, violent crime etc…while a judge, not all PB investigations fell in his jurisdiction…many in Rio/ Brasilia/SP - nothing to do with Moro directly, he can’t interfere in individual cases.
Forget the USA…I live here, listen to ‘n have access to what you most likely don’t.
Dilma was so screwed up, no one – except PT - would defend her.
Yr question on wiretap, hackers Vs Moro... if I thought the ends justified the means, ‘n in this case I do, so yes - only to prevent further crimes. But the point is, Moro had legal access to all conversations, only acted in the interest of ‘justice’.
[Cont last post): “your enemies ” (?) Despite the animosity, I’d say political adversaries ; ’n how many Congressmen received threats ‘n were assassinated ? B nearly was, by an ex-PSOL militant…any attempts on “petistas”? The militias might well have killed Marielle, but to link her death to B's govt is a long stretch.
Wyllys underwent no stress due to his move to Paris…came out fairly well I think. Have no idea if he’s being investigated, but if he is ‘n they find zero, they’ll drop it. Only he knows if there’s reason to be “concerned”.
Re Lula, ‘n current investigations under secrecy of justice, don’t generalize, you’re just shooting into the dark.
Lula’s reputation ? dirtier than a chicken perch ! I know you only believe what the lefties claim, so we must conclude they're all honest, law-abiding citizens…and all the nasty anti-left, are crooks with no scruples.
Reasons given by those who “fled” Brazil, are pure bs, ‘n nothing to do with B…but how about the “PT whistle blowers to be” assassinated by the PT to shut them up ?
Mourão vs. Bolsonaro : get real, it was Carlos B, not Jair. Lula got “permission” from Lewandowski to ‘break the law'.
Need space, pls
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