MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Ukrainians operating veteran Falklands war Sea King helicopter donated by UK
BBC has reported that a military helicopter donated to Ukraine by the UK government was used in the Falklands conflict more than 40 years ago, but despite its age, the Ukrainian military says the chopper will help in the fight against Russia. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesActually the se Helicopters will have been modernised and refitted a lot over the years so are far from old relics as some suggest. Probably not much left at all of the one that flew in the Falklands at all.
Apr 14th, 2023 - 12:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Regarding the Typhoons these are basically air combat fighters and not really what Ukraine needs- Ukraine needs Air/Ground attack jets- ie the F35 and correct UK only has a few so far and correct ,it would take many many months to train Ukranian pilots up on them and all the ground servicing crews. And time they do not have. Yes whatn they are receiving are pretty good jets they already know how to handle and maintain.
I believe the RN have 20 to 24 F35s so far with another 20 plus on order
Apr 14th, 2023 - 01:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some 30 F35 delivered so far, they say they are going to buy at least 80 (81 now since they parked one at the bottom of the Med) but probably not the 138 originally envisaged. Focus and funding, is now shifting to the Tempest development and deliveries.
Apr 14th, 2023 - 02:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There are Typhoons squadrons equipped for ground attack, they were used in Afgan when the Harriers were decommissioned. But any given to the Ukrainians would be too few and take too long to get into service to be of much use, not to mention another set of logistics and parts required.
On the other hand Sea Kings are very useful to them.
I stand corrected Pugol, although it was some time a go what i read, 40 per carrier and 20 back up is a good start. and yes the Tempest is the future,
Apr 14th, 2023 - 02:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Currently, the Carriers will have a compliment of 24 F35 aircraft each, although they can carry up to 48 each as well as 30 other types of Aircraft, helicopters, drones, surveillance planes etc.
Apr 14th, 2023 - 03:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They ‘future proofed’ them by building them bigger than necessary, as they know the aircraft they start with will not be the ones they finish with.
All modern RN warships have ‘spaces’ left in them if you want to fit another weapons system to them later.
Also don’t forget the RAF want some F35s for their strike role.
This is old news
Apr 14th, 2023 - 07:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ben Wallace announced in November last year that they would supply Sea Kings
Has it taken them 5 months to scrape the rust off them
The Aussies sent all of their Sea Kings for scrap in 2013.
No doubt the Russians have been given the task of turning these into scrap as what happened to the original helicopters in the Ukraine fleet
The notion of Ukraine acquiring F35 is untenable. UK has the 35B - short take off and landing version (STOVL). It is suited to UK carrier ramp design. It is circa £100 million, and highly classified. A link explaining difference between F35 variants
Apr 14th, 2023 - 07:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II
There has been much debate about if this approach was correct for UK.
During Falklands war, the UK had to rely upon the the Harrier, and whilst it acquitted itself well, again there was much debate of the limitations of both the aircraft and its carriers lacking an enhanced airborne radar early warning capability that was previously provided by the the Gannet used by the old flat deck Ark Royal, decommissioned before the war, also the flat deck carried F4 Phantoms, capable of of intercepting Argentine Air well before arrival, and pursuing them back to base.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ark_Royal_(R09)
The early warning radar capability was also superior to present options - limited by operational flight capabilities. The Gannet aircraft used on the Ark Royal, being able to operate on a ‘flat top’ carrier provided excellent coverage.
Ukraine have specifically requested the F16, a competent aircraft for their needs and readily available in NATO countries.
Welcome back Chicureo. Pleased that matters are well with you. However I would echo my possibly distant cousin Mr Think. I prefer your opinions on topic, but also your epicurean adventures.
https://static.skaip.org/img/emoticons/180x180/f6fcff/facepalm.gif
Shogun
Apr 15th, 2023 - 01:16 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Aluminium doesn’t rust.
If you want scrap, there are thousands of Russian Tanks and armoured vehicles burned out and rusting in the fields of Ukraine, along with hundreds of wrecked helicopters.
Thank god for StarStreak and NLAW.
It must be becoming apparent even to you that the Russians are simply not winning in Ukraine, indeed in many places they are now on the defensive even before the expected Ukrainian counteroffensive has begun.
Have they captured Bakmut yet???
No, despite their best efforts and very, very high casualties, which tells you all you need to know about the state of play there.
Eilean Siar
The issue with ‘Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery’ aircraft like the F35C, is that even with electromagnetic launch and recovery systems rather than steam and the aircraft being ‘beefed up’, because of the stresses involved they have a much shorter life span than CTOL or STOVL aircraft.
I recall reading that carrier based F18s have only about 1/3 the lifespan of the land based ones.
The other advantage being STOVL aircraft can take off from a carrier or airstrip and land anywhere. The F35C or A cannot.
They are looking at AEW alternatives:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/competition-to-enhance-royal-navy-early-warning-capabilities/
I have often thought we should buy some F35C but operate them as land based, stationed in the Falklands where their greater range would put most of Argentina in striking distance, without the need to refuel in flight.
Perfect for the S. Atlantic and East Med, operating from Cyprus.
Pugol-H
Apr 15th, 2023 - 02:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for that, I wasn’t aware of Vixen programme.
Came across this, where they seem to be looking at a number of options for carrier use of unmanned fixed wing aircraft on carriers.
https://www.navylookout.com/cats-traps-and-uas-the-royal-navy-considers-options-for-carrier-launched-drones/
Eilean Siar
Apr 15th, 2023 - 03:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +1In future it seems AEW, electronic surveillance/countermeasures, air to air refuelling, CAP and even strikes will all be done by stealth capable drones.
The new carriers are actually a ‘work in progress’ in terms of capabilities.
We shall see how it develops.
Shogun
Also, what happened to the Russian attacks on the Ukrainian power grid, which I recall you confidently predicted would succeed???
It didn’t, the power grid is still working and there have been no Russian attacks for weeks now.
The Russians seem to have run out of missiles and the Ukrainians now have the capability to shoot down most if not all missiles fired at military/power infrastructure targets.
The Russians can now only hit undefended civilian targets, which much as they like to do that, they know it will not win this war for them.
Serious question Shogun why do you love Putin and Russia so much and want the Ukraine to lose ?. are you Russian ? all your previous post seem to indicate this,
Apr 15th, 2023 - 04:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Pugol-H
Apr 15th, 2023 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Rust was just a play on words Why has it taken 5 months ?
Why not supply new / latest tech Helicopters ?
The attacks on the Electric grid served 2 purposes can you guess what the 2nd purpose was ?
My last comment to you several weeks ago concerning this proxy war “ we shall see what we shall see ” still stands
I suggest you visit the below link watch and read all of it
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/sitrep-41223-offensiveor-collapse
Judge Jose
I don't care either way who wins, neither do I love Putin or Russia
I just don't swallow the reporting of any MSM be it Russian or the opposing west as being the whole truth and nothing but the truth. “Weapons of Mass Destruction anyone”
You are just repeating the sheeple narrative,
“ Any one that questions the official story must be a Putin lover”
Oh I'm not Russian by the way
Shogun no one believes for one minute everything we are told is 100% true, and the vast majority of people have nothing to do with MSM, Speak to the Ukrainians who have had to flee their homes, speak to people in Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia. Moldova, lands once controlled by the USSR, ask them what they think about Putin and Russia, they know him far far better than you and me and can tell you horror stories even before the war broke, you say you dont care, but you should care, that a country does not want to be taken over by a despotic dictator, if he was successful do you think he would stop there, of course not,
Apr 15th, 2023 - 08:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0he has said clearly on record he wants to restore a Russian empire, Putin could have gone down as a great leader dragging Russia in to the modern world of democracy but like all dictators the power went to his head and he never wanted to give it up, he even changed the Russian law which stopped anyone serving more than two terms in office, look at the bigger picture, democracy or dictatorship, which would you rather live in ? no sheep narrative at all, i was against the Iraq war and the Libya intervention as was the vast majority of the population,
Shogun
Apr 16th, 2023 - 12:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0‘served 2 purposes can you guess what the 2nd purpose was ?’
Actually I can’t, as far as I can see it served no useful purpose other than to deplete Russia’s missile stocks and improve Ukraine’s air defence system.
It did nothing to further Russia’s war aims, as an operation it was a complete failure, simple as that.
Yes, you did say “we shall see what we shall see”, what I am saying is that what we are seeing is Russia losing, with no way out.
In the last month Ukraine has significantly increased its military capabilities, with the addition of a significant number of NATO MBTs and associated self-propelled artillery and mobile air defence assets.
In the same period Russia has simply lost a lot more men and equipment. Oh and run out of missiles.
We shall see how many ‘glide bombs’ the Russians have in stock, not many I’ll wager and how long it takes the Ukrainians to properly counter the threat, such as get Patriots up and running.
Already one has crashed and failed to explode, so they know what’s in them and how they work. The first step to an effective counter measure.
This is more an act of desperation by the Russians than anything else, they would not be using their limited supply of their latest weapon unless there was no alternative, they have nothing else to throw at the Ukrainians, the cupboard is bare.
Judge Jose
The other problem Putin has, like other dictators, is that he has become surrounded by ‘yes men’, no one left with the cojones to tell him something is a bad idea.
Hence a straightforward 3 week military operation ends up as a full blown war, draining away Russia’s military capabilities on a daily basis.
Some in Moscow will have foreseen this, but no one with the courage to say so.
Which applies double now it has all gone so badly wrong, would you want to explain this to Putin ‘it’s a Cluster F*ck’?
Pugol-H
Apr 16th, 2023 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Yours like mine is only an opinion
But lacking certain realities
Re Nato MBT's
200/300 supplied by Nato
Pray tell me what happened to the original 800/1000 tanks they had at the begining of the war ?
2 or 3 hundred MBT's is no where near enough
Not to mention learning how to operate these western tanks effectively on the battlefield
If you ask an experienced tanker he will tell you it takes at least 6 months training to attain this, and thats when its your own equipment not a foreign tank.
Funny how the Russians have been running out of missiles since March 2022
Improved the effectiveness of their Air defence ?
This is not shown by the uptick in use of the Russian air force,
Have you seen any reports of their AD shooting down Rusky bombers with their AD missiles ?
They have been screaming for more air defense aid for several months, including missiles for the S300 system which they know very well as it was their original AD but The west and Nato cannot supply them as they are made in Russia
Meanwhile the west runs around asking friendly nations to sell them S300 missiles but no one is willing to do so.
Half a dozen Patriots again is no where near enough
Lost a lot of men ? Even the BBC agrees with the Russin MOD casualty figures
Find it surprising you have't figured out the 2nd strategic purpose. the answer lies within this comment.
As regards We shall see what we shall see pertains to the outcome when this is all over.
As the below article indicates ” The Russian cat is waiting for the Ukrainian mouse to make its run.
Whether you believe it or not is unimportant
We shall see what we shall see at the end of the day
https://johnhelmer.net/the-writing-on-the-wall-as-revealed-by-the-pentagon-papers-leak/print/
Another one sided argument Shogun, the BBC reported what the Russians claimed were their losses (free press) certainly did not agree with them, the losses are somewhere between both sides claim, no mention of the 70 year old tanks being dragged out of storage. masses of evidence on the battlefield of destroyed ww2 tanks, no mention of trawling prisons for recruits because of man power shortages, (more cannon fodder) , there is no cat waiting to pounce, just a very desperate Putin trying desperately to save face and claim some sort of victory, its pretty much stalemate at the moment, Russias new offensive has failed, Ukraines new offensive hasnt started yet, but you are right in saying we shall see what we shall see, also in the past you have dissed Nato strength, for someone who claims to be impartial,(shame on you, democracy v dictatorship) i see very little of it,
Apr 17th, 2023 - 08:56 am - Link - Report abuse -1Shogun
Apr 17th, 2023 - 01:36 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Yes the Ukrainians have lost some tanks, the Russians have lost a lot more tanks than the Ukrainians started with, so the overall gap in numbers between the two is narrowing rapidly.
Not to mention the Ukrainians have captured a lot of working Russian tanks, in fact after the Russian rout in the east, Russia became Ukraine’s second largest weapons supplier, such was the quantities of munitions captured.
The point about NATO MBTs is that they are way, way better than anything else on the battlefield. The Iraqis had modern Russian tanks in the gulf wars and didn’t manage to knock out a single NATO tank, despite there being several tank on tank battles.
A British armoured Brigade destroyed an entire Iraqi armoured Division without loss.
200-300 Modern western tanks are more than enough to frighten the Russians, especially as they have nothing to counter them with.
The Russian Airforce, are they still flying outside Russian airspace???
Here have a read:
https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-losing-armor-ukraine-because-cant-use-its-tanks-properly-2023-3?r=US&IR=T
Yeah right, we shall see what we shall see, like the sailor who went to sea to see what he could see, but all he could see was the sea!!!
Pugol-H
Apr 17th, 2023 - 09:01 pm - Link - Report abuse -1No real need to say any more
Listen to the first 30mins of this
Also note that all the content comes from British Military experts and recent articles.
https://theduran.com/russia-grinds-forward-bakhmut-other-fronts-uk-military-experts-doubt-ukraine-offensive-putin-meets-china-defence-minister-china-russia-deepen-defence-ties-sudan-crisis-russian-base/
Shogun
Apr 18th, 2023 - 01:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This man is stoned, as in wasted.
Half quotes and misrepresentations worthy of Stink himself.
7 to 1 kill ratio in favour of the Russians, really???
With 60,000 Russian dead so far (UK intel estimates), this would mean 420000 Ukrainian dead, or their entire Army active and reserve.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1296573/russia-ukraine-military-comparison/
If this were true the Russians would have been in Kiev last summer, but they are not.
Clearly no idea of what happened in the Yom Kippur War, or the military history of ‘defensive lines’, or there use in modern warfare.
Basically he is talking nonsense.
But hey, if it comforts you to listen to this, you fill your boots, just be prepared for events on the ground to burst your bubble, sooner rather than later.
Pugol-H
Apr 18th, 2023 - 06:44 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Well that was a totally irrelevant comment
I was hoping for your views on the British Military opinion quoted in the Financial Times and The Spectator.
Instead as always you do not address the issues raised but launch into an Ad Hominem. attack and talk about casualty figures.
Have you not figured out yet that they BOTH lie
Also your reply to my comment that the UKE air defense was in a critical state,
Which has been confirmed by the head of the Ukrainian AD as reported in the London Times.they are short of missiles as per their artillery situation
Daily Russian precision glide bomb usage is now at 20+ (possibly up to 30 on a “good” day), up from ~15 just days ago, around 10-12 a couple of weeks ago, & near-zero in February.according to UKE reports
The bombs target primarily MUNITIONS STORES & diesel tanks, & secondly, barracks and bunkers.
The “Great Big Really Grand Ukrainian Counteroffensive” is over before it began
. MSM will figure it out at some point, that no force can advance against a dug-in enemy (with his own cannon & MLRS) without reliable, massed artillery fire… and, without MUNITIONS, cannon & MLRS (& tanks advancing on open ground without support) are just SCRAP METAL
Not to mention lack of or poor air support on the UKE side
Its not about military defense history its about having a FULL TOOL KIT for the job
Add to that the UKES have no real experience of large scale Combined Arms Operations as expressed by British Military opinion in the quoted articles. although the appear to be decent on a smalerl scale operation like in Karkov but did not face any really prepared defenses or large quantities of opposing troops. Back then the Rusky air force could not intervene as the UKE air defense had not been suppressed to any real extent.
As I have said in the past I have no dog in this fight, As Judge.Jose seems to think I am no Putin lover I just express different views of the ongoing conflict
Neither do I live in a media bubble.
Shogun, you say you dont live in a media bubble, yet the things you quote are from the media bubble , the BBC report for example, i dont think you love Putin at all, but you do seem to act as an apologist for him, precision strikes ? have a day off will you, schools hospitals shopping malls are hardly military targets, dug in trench warfare is a thing of the past, the Iraq war proved that, it all depends on what modern weaponry the Ukrainians have and what the world is prepared to give them, British and American military experts have been wrong time and time again, they thought Ukraine would fall in a few days, wrong, they said Ukraine couldnt retake land, wrong, the war could stop tomorrow, its all down to Vladamir, the myth of a Russian superpower military has been destroyed, we were all conned about that, if you lived in Latvia Lithuania Estonia Moldova Georgia Poland Finalnd Sweden, would you rather join NATO or be controlled by Moscow, (Belarus), i assume you live in a democracy with the right of free speech, then so do the Ukrainians not also have that right too, if you claim to be neutral then at least be neutral.
Apr 18th, 2023 - 07:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Judge Jose
Apr 18th, 2023 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse -1you say “ i assume you live in a democracy with the right of free speech, then so do the Ukrainians not also have that right too ”
But that right of free speech does not apply to Ukrainians who want to speak and learn russian
The funniest thing is Zelensky was born a Russian speaker but went along with the idea of banning the Russian language.in schools ( still speaks with a Russian accent when he speaks in Ukrainian )
Smells a bit like a puppet
Democracy is an Abstract, there are different forms of Democracy all over the planet.
Everybody has their own ideas of what democracy is
Obviously free speech in Ukraine is not part of their “ version ” of Democracy lol
So you are wrong UKES do not have free speech under their current government
Just a neutral observation lol
Shogun, when you live in a country you learn that language you live in, no one stops them from learning Russian, but it is a 2nd language ,Ukraine has every right to make Ukrainian the official language and everyone that lives there should speak it, All the Italians that live in Argentina speak Spanish dont they, that is a pretty poor argument, Just a neutral observation ? good one, split my sides laughing,
Apr 18th, 2023 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What the hell are you talking about there are around 17 languages spoken in the Ukraine ( Regional )
Apr 19th, 2023 - 12:02 am - Link - Report abuse -1But not necessarily spoken at home
Ukrainian has always been the official language of Ukraine even under the soviets They all can speak the Ukrainian language
I guess you do not live in a multi lingual society.
Does the US ban the teaching of spanish in schools ? due to the massive increase in Mexican migrants
No because they have a reasonable amount of so called free speech.
You really do not have a clue
There is a ban on learning Russian
Shogun, what the hell are you talking about ? you have wandered off again , you are completely clueless and believe every bit of Russian propaganda that you read, neutral my ass, every school child should be taught lessons in Ukrainian not Russian, its the national language, if they want to learn Russian then do it in their own time, the American comparison is not remotely the same and you know that, Ukraine wants nothing to do with Russia any more, just let that sink in, why should Russian be taught any more than French or Spanish or English, clearly you are a Russian enabler as your posts prove,
Apr 19th, 2023 - 12:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Shogun
Apr 20th, 2023 - 12:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ad Hominem, no I have addressed the issues raised with the only exception of ‘if it comforts you’, couldn’t resist that.
Did or did not your man quote a kill ratio of 7-1 in favour of the Russians??? He did.
As for the air defences, when was the last Russian missile attack or airstrike??? Never mind one that hit a target of any consequence.
Where do you get your figures on ‘glide bomb attacks’??? If they were at the level and effectiveness you suggest the war was over three weeks ago, but it wasn’t, just like the 7-1 kill ratio.
The Russians don’t know where the Ukrainians ‘MUNITIONS STORES & diesel tanks, & secondly, barracks and bunkers’ are, they don’t have the benefit of western intelligence information.
The defensive line being constructed by the Russians of mines, barbed wire, dragon’s teeth and trenches with bunkers, all in the same place, along the same line, will not survive the opening bombardment.
If you want a successful example of defensive lines (note the plural, ‘lines’) then study the battle of Kursk. Even there the Germans broke through, against much greater numbers of Russian infantry, artillery and tanks well dug in with full air support, but not in enough strength to exploit the situation.
If the Rusky air force could intervene, it would have intervened already.
‘Media bubble’, you (and the links you post) describe a conflict where the Russians are easily and overwhelmingly winning (7-1), which is simply not supported by the facts on the ground.
Open your eyes man.
Oh and under the Soviets Russification was the policy, large numbers of Russians were moved into Eastern Ukraine, the Ukrainian language was suppressed in favour of Russian. Which is why many ethnic Ukrainians, like Zelenskyy, have Russian as a first language and a Russian accent when speaking Ukrainian.
Most Ukrainians are bilingual. The Russians are not.
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