MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
James Cleverly in Chile: Falklands have a right to self determination and to choose their future
British Foreign Secretary James Cleverly, on a political and trade visit to South America, including Colombia, Chile and Brazil, said the Falkland Islands people have the right to self determination recalling that ten years ago Islanders overwhelmingly voted to remain in the British Family. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rules2013? Seems like only yesterday.
May 25th, 2023 - 11:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Democracy in action.
https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2022/09/2000-to-2015.pdf
Still have the right to determine our own future.
May 25th, 2023 - 11:53 am - Link - Report abuse +1Chile has been a long term friend with the islanders and UK. They are hindered by the Argentines embargo on us. We used to trade with all Latin American Countries including Argentina, but Argentina chose to distance themselves from us and tries to interfere with all the other latin american countries who do business with us.
It could all be so much better if Argentina were to stop being the aggressive bully and started working with all neighbours in the region. They need to move on from their Historical past aggression with Britain.
There Country might not be in the financial mess it is in today had they chose a path of peace and good will.
The self-determination of peoples should be a factor of peace, something to be celebrated. Too bad that Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea have not recognized its self-determination. There is war!
May 25th, 2023 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Imperialism is like that. The law is only valid when it is in favor of the G7.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSlw9-qfAZM&list=FLmXPTu1f8AdGlizWNiASx2A&index=21
The only valid law is “UN Charter; DECLARATION REGARDING NON-SELF-GOVERNING TERRITORIES; Article 73; Members of the United Nations which have or assume responsibilities for ..peoples have not yet attained .. self-government recognize the principle ..b. to develop self-government, ...”
May 25th, 2023 - 04:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bras, the so called referendum in those Russian occupied Ukraine was a farce and not recognised internationally, voters were forced to vote at GUN POINT, thousands and thousands of Ukrainians had fled those areas, Russia signed up to the current borders, but when mad Vlad took power in Russia, it was him that whipped up Nationalism, get your facts right and do some genuine research before you quote utter and complete nonsense,
May 25th, 2023 - 05:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LOL “Cleverly”. Lol... God makes no coincidences.
May 25th, 2023 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse -1The British and Americans are just jaw-droppingly astounding, aren't they?. Is there any vagueness in seeing what Laura Richardson's visits and “Cleverly”s add up to? These people so nakedly let us see what is festering inside their egotistical minds and their agenda's so transparently, it's truly amazing. They actually think it proper and correct coming over to our countries with a list of things they expect from us. It's hilarious, only if one consciously looks the other way from its insulting definition of course.
But then again, they do the same in the rest of the world.
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What is so sad to see, is how humanity like android dolls in some sci-fi movie, is so tragically incapable of seizing its own behavior's repercussions and realizing it alone provokes all the things we are later to suffer, and ridiculously almost, will complain about later or now, in our historical narratives.
It's good to see Skippy (aka Terence Hill) still continues his false and scandalous identity here on MP.
May 25th, 2023 - 06:40 pm - Link - Report abuse -5His actual history can easily found on Facebook.
¡Saludos de Chile!
Everyone has the right to determine their future, Falklands-Free (...Free of what? I'm wondering) We all do, and we all do so equally, not differently. After which one starts considering the order of things in this world onto which we apply that freedom. That “order” starts in several places, and it meets up on the same level with other people when discussing whatever we are talking about. This could be a long ... very long explanation, so allow me to just leave it at the following question; What is greater or higher in said mentioned order? A person's general will, in the sense of thinking of it as an attribute of life and the human mind, or a person's right to nationhood and their own country alongside equal citizens? Indeed the islanders like all people have the “right to determine their own future”, but depending on greater circumstances, that right may only extend so far or be limited to certain criteria or definitions. Human right to self determination is not some “wild card” you can apply universally wherever you please, dear. - Is that what you've been told?? Because it sure seems to be what Mr Clever is going around saying.
May 25th, 2023 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Chile is its own country, a well grown adult who can decide for itself and be responsible for itself, one could make the analogy. If it decides to abide by certain principals regarding its historical sibling Argentina, and Britain's occupation of islands on the Atlantic Ocean it is because it deems them the best and most beneficial policy for it.
Argentina “chose” to distance itself from its British occupiers, against which it has a 190 year old dispute over the islands and a war created by Britain that cost it nearly 700 lives? Yet for some strange reason it inexplicably “chose” to do this for no reason? As if there could be no possible explanation for it? Are you completely stupid? Or is it that you believe you are so unconditionally entitled to anything you presume or expect from other countries, that what it is, is inconsequent?
Trimonde . You sure talk a bunch of cobs wallop.
May 25th, 2023 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +1When the term the right to choose their own future means without bullying from your neighbour, which is exactly what is happening here. Argentina refuses to accept our right to determine our own future. They even say we dont exist. I wonder do your lot say that to your neighbours or should I put that another way , did you say that to the indigenous people who's land you stole. Did you say to them you have no right.
Well I say the same to you. You have no right to treat us in the way you do. We are a people living in our own land, land that is being claimed by a greedy neighbour because they think they have that god given right to do so.
Wake up or better still grow up and start acting like responsible human beings and not like the cave man you portray yourself to be.
Thank goodness not every Argentinian thinks like you do.
Time will play an important part but sooner rather than later you will have to accept like more and more Argentines are accepting, that we do exist and that we do have the right to self determination. So not all your indoctrination is working very well anymore.
“When the term the right to choose their own future means without bullying from your neighbour,”
May 25th, 2023 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“1970 DECLARATION ON PRINCIPLES OF INTERNATIONAL LAW CONCERNING FRIENDLY RELATIONS AND COOPERATION AMONG STATES IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE CHARTER OF THE UNITED NATIONS (GAR 2625)
Recalling the duty of States to refrain in their international relations from military, political, economic or any other form of coercion aimed against the political independence or territorial integrity of any State,
Considering it essential that all States shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations,
Considering it equally essential that all States shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in accordance with the Charter, a major obstacle to the promotion of international peace and security, Convinced that the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples constitutes a significant contribution to contemporary international law, and that its effective application is of paramount importance for the promotion of friendly relations among States, based on respect for the principle of sovereign equality,
Convinced in consequence that any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and territorial integrity of a State or country or at its political independence is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter”
You'll note that Skippy plainly ignores his You Tube's scandalous history.
May 25th, 2023 - 11:50 pm - Link - Report abuse -1A quick check of his You Tube channel is quite revealing, especially his multiple lawsuits.
False military claims are clearly punishable.
I'm finding this “half assed” “one sided coin” world more interesting and more all encompassing with each passing day that i consider another issue in the world.
May 26th, 2023 - 10:55 am - Link - Report abuse -1Funny thing about the UN is that somehow though its supposed purpose is to keep the world at peace prevent war and so forth, it only seems to kick in when selectively choosing to react to certain belligerent events or situations and not others, while doing absolutely nothing for the other half or 50% of said event or situation in order to securing that peace, which should mean to be just as dedicated staunch reactive and punishing of those forces that originally perpetrated provoked and even triggered war sometimes among nations, standing by idle when conditions are brought to a boiling point by those same governments that later will denounce hostility and request UN intervention.
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The UN does absolutely f$%& all IN REALITY to keep the world at peace, or be fair and equally just among all nations. It simply fakes action. Protocol and system “action” with no real intelligence behind that action.
The world actually knows this, but... it seems to not be able to do anything about it. hmmm As if, it could only use one of its arms, instead of its two arms. A half assed, one sided coin world.
WHY DO YOU THINK THIS HAPPENS? Freedumb Falkalnds?
Trimonde. Ask yourself this question. Why does Argentina ignore the rights of the people of the Falkland Islands. Forget about the other external world problems that you keep harping on about. Answer truthfully without deviation or repetition, why Argentine denies the right of these people.
May 26th, 2023 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse +1Tell the whole world on every media platform why this is.
If you cant or wont do that then shut up.
You still don't know?
May 26th, 2023 - 11:55 am - Link - Report abuse -2Because they're trying to steal territory that belongs to Argentina.
The only stealing that went on in the South American continent was by the Spanish and Portuguese and latterly the Argentine who stole the land of the indigenous people who are the true owners of the land,
May 26th, 2023 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +1What a silly dumb ass statement.
May 26th, 2023 - 01:55 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Why is it a dumb ass statement Mr Regini, is it because its 100 per cent true and hits home, All white people are implanted stock who stole the land from the true owners of the land, look in the mirror before you make silly dumb ass statements,
May 26th, 2023 - 02:57 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Juan Cervantes. You too. So you believe all white people are implanted. Please explain the millions of white people living in Argentina then. Are they implanted also given that most of them are from the United Kingdom.
May 26th, 2023 - 03:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Try another excuse.
Trimonde. You are no better.
I ask the question why you deny the people of the Falkland Islands the right to live the life of their own choosing. Using the excuse of implanted does not wash I am afraid to say. Your very existance started by an implanted population. You keep forgetting your own history . The Spanish implanted her people in South America and then which your lot chose to break away from.
So stop trying to make up excuses and truthfully answer the question.
Your fight is I believe with the British that goes back much further than the Falkland Islands so why your disrespect to the people of the Falkland islands who were born and bred there and span at least 10 generations.
Your hatred of the British is such that you refuse to see any logic in what I am saying.
Falklands Free, you miss understand what i am trying to say, every white man on the whole of the American continent are from implanted European stock, whether that is Spanish , French, Italian, German, Portuguese or British, none of them are native to the continent, all those countries are made from stolen land, unlike the Falklands which had no native people, so its the only land that has not been stolen, it was a rebuttle to Trimondes pathetic statement of the Falklands being stolen, it was British it is British and will stay British for as long as necessary,
May 26th, 2023 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Trimonde
May 26th, 2023 - 06:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +3You have posted on here for many years, yet still stick to the same narrative that the Falklands are “Argentine territory”.
Given that Argentina is country derived from the random break-up of the Spanish Empire and than further colonialism of Patagonia, its boundaries are quite clearly derived by whatever “European colonialists could take”.
We are both familiar with events that took place 200 years ago, and you wish to interpret them in a way that says a set of islands deserted by the Spanish, that then housed a failed business by a German entrepreneur for 2 years, automatically belong to a country of other Spanish colonialists who claimed independence, rather than a population of inhabitants that have lived there 180 years.
It is your right to believe your fantasy, it is our right to defend the islanders,
Why is every other Caribbean or Atlantic islands population more than a few miles off the coast allowed to choose their future but not the Falklands.
Why not try to claim Aruba, Jamaica, Barbados, Cuba..your claim is just as valid.
Juan Cervantes.
May 26th, 2023 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +1My apologies to you. I misread your statement.
It annoys me to see such idiotic statements when the reality is right in front of them.
Everywhere in the world cultures have had migrants integrate with each other. It is called the free world. I am not even sure where one defines implanted from migration.
What I can define is when a country tries to steal your land.
I stole nothing from anyone. I like many generations are products of adventurers not put there by implantation.
The human race seriously needs to redefine their role on this planet befor they completely destroy it and each other.
I like your passion Falklands Free, the crazy thing is Argentina was created by conquest of another peoples land , and yet the clowns from Buenos Aires that post on here cant or wont see that,
May 26th, 2023 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Juan Cervantes; “crazy thing”? “clowns”?!
May 26th, 2023 - 09:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Tell me something fool, WHAT COUNTRY today, last century or last milenia, WAS NOT created by the conquest of another people's land?
What is it exactly that we “don't see” stupid?
Trimonde you clearly are stupid if you cant see it, you claim the Falklands were stolen from you which is a downright lie, but yet you say it was ok to steal Latin America from the natives of South America creating the Argentina of today, makes you nothing but a hypocrite ,
May 26th, 2023 - 09:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Wonder what the reaction/view in Chile was to these statements?
May 26th, 2023 - 11:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We know what Argentina thinks, but who is winning the ‘battle of ideas’ in the rest of the continent?
Monkeymagic
Well put.
The islands WERE taken from Argentina, that is not a lie. I see how you all work so hard at brainwashing yourselves in discrediting British, Spanish and Argentine historical events that describe how Argentina became the country in the end to earn sovereignty and indeed declare formal and rightful incorporation of the islands, and yet, it's there in history plain for everyone to see why and how that is true. Including how the United States and Britain in collaboration took the islands from the Argentinians. You simply hate to admit your evils, and that is human of course. Although... it is also human wanting to admit them.
May 27th, 2023 - 06:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0The islands were left in Argentinian hands non-voluntarily and without any confrontation about them by the Spanish Empire. The Argentinian's won them through their wars of independence as the Spanish had made them part of Buenos Aires since before the country's independence. Buenos Aires and Montevideo supplied the islands with men sustenance and all necessary materials whenever it was needed. Half the men who went over to expel the British from Port Egmont from this Spanish claimed territory as soldiers, later became United Provinces or Argentine citizens in their late 50's and 60's.
When the British evacuated and abandoned the islands, the people they brought SEVENTY YEARS LATER AND ELEVEN YEARS after Argentina's protest against British occupation, weren't even a remote thought. Buenos Aires realized early on as the revolution was starting to happen in 1808, that the Malvinas Islands were going to be part of their union of provinces and newly emerging territory. This is well documented, and of course it stands to reason once you follow events in Argentina regarding the matter. But of course, your childish beliefs and comments in these groups are absurdly based on ignoring or discrediting Argentine history, so how can one even take seriously responding to most of your stupidly self centered egotistical and indoctrinated statements?
I wonder...
May 27th, 2023 - 11:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0- Will those Ethnic Albanian Kosovo Troops..., currently being trained in the Malvinas Isles..., being hastily flown through the Air Bridge back to North-Kosovo..., to positively contribute to the defense of Democracy by opressing its ~90% Ethnic Serbian civilian population...?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neHeY_o61Y8&pp=ygUGS09TT1ZP
Wakey-wakey..., Kelpers...
Capisce...?
Trimonde
May 27th, 2023 - 12:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +2We agree the historic facts, just interpret them differently, unfortunately because we refuse to interpret them in the way you do, you get upset.
We do not recognise that the Argentine boundaries upon independence included the Falklands. I understand that you think it did. They were uninhabited and over 1000 miles from Argentina, every Spanish person who left the islands returned to Spain via Montevideo.
We do not recognise the Vernet business as an Argentine sovereign community, Vernet recognised the conflicting sovereignty claims and asked the British consulate Parrish in Buenos Aires permission to be there. He played both sides. I understand you only see what you want to see.
We do acknowledge the formal attempt of Argentina to seize the islands in November 1832 under Mestevier, we told you we'd evict you and we did.
We do acknowledge the formal attempt of Argentina to seize the islands in April 1982, we told you we'd evict you and we did.
So trimonde, we know where we don't agree, we even know why you'd like to believe your myths and fairy stories.
But 200 years on, the Falklands belong to the islanders, and your silly myths and made up fantasies can do nothing about it.
Actually, in N. Kosovo they should do what they should have done in Crimea and the Donbass and many other places in the world, particularly in the border regions of the Ex-Soviet states and hold a plebiscite, an area by area, free and fair referendum and draw the borders accordingly.
May 27th, 2023 - 01:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ok not going to be perfect, but it does avoid the situation of large ethnic minorities being the wrong side of a border, as in central Asia in particular.
There are precedents, this was how Poland’s western border was decided at the end of the First World War.
Territorial integrity is not inviolable, or countries like S. Sudan, Eritrea, E. Timor and the former Yugoslav countries would not exist today.
You're such an idiot Monkey--Mud;
May 27th, 2023 - 02:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -2You think this is just about clever writing and simple creative affirmations ? You can say anything you want, and lie about it anything you feel you can, which you do.
... AND??
- Why do you start by saying that makes no sense at all like “we agree on historical facts” ? Clearly we don't. Malvinas WAS a part of the Viceroyalty territory whose capital was Buenos Aires since 1776. That's actually in scores of documents including all instructions given to Malvina's Governors. Buenos Aires was it's referring metropolis, even if many ships left from Montevideo, they were leaving from Buenos Aires too, plus these two cities were part of the same people and territory fool, at least until after the Spanish left the islands, and held out in Uruguay a couple of years longer. When the Spanish wanted to build a church in Puerto Soledad, where do you think the drawings were sent and entrusted for building it? Buenos Aires officially accepted David Jewett's 1820 declaration of the islands incorporation to the United Provinces and the new Republic. So the matter did not start with Mestevier in 1832, it started in 1776. Do you not understand we WERE SPAIN? We were never “Colonies”, we were a single Empire, unlike the 13 colonies in North America of the British, Madrid was our capital, and Buenos Aires was the capital our Vice-Royalty.
You do not agree with our facts, in fact you called them “fairy tales and myths”. We know our facts. It is you who suffers the pursuit of fairy tales and myths regarding us. We know what we are and what our history was, you insolent prick.
No Regini, the islands were not yours, and never had been,
May 27th, 2023 - 02:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +2No Regini you inherited nothing from Spain, just like you didnt inherit Cuba
No Regini, the only indoctrination is what goes on in your country with school children,
No Regini, the only childish statements are the ones that come from yourself and the other man child stink, a political activist with nothing but bitterness, hatred and tunnel vision,
LOL
May 27th, 2023 - 03:16 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Yes, they were part of the Bs As Vice Royalty when we became independent. Look it up.
Correct, we didn't inherit them, just like we didn't “inherit” Buenos Aires, Cordoba or Corrientes. We brought them with us by earning our indepence, as they were already part of our territory. Indeed they were much more part of our territory at the time than they were British in 1810. LIke I said, we WERE Spain. Then broke off from Spain.
You do the same to your school children and your entire population, especially on the islands themselves, so quit the bullshit.
... the rest. Is whatever.
Let me ask you this. Why is your entire logic built around trying to discredit Argentina? Is it because London until they stole the islands from Argentina had no real political definition for the islands?? Well we did. We had Governors assigned to the islands by Spain, which continued on when we became Argentina. We always made a point of administration, uninterruptedly. Unlike the greedy English who just wanted to flagged them and took off them because really what they were trying to do was bring down the Spanish Empire. To Britain having the islands was about Empire expansionism and beating the Spanish. For us they were always about territorial integrity. Our territory. And YOU don't even know how to handle that, because you're hole thing is about creative arguing that tries to negate Argentina. There is no real argument about history in your bullshit, you just “say things”
Continue living in your fantasy world, NOTHING is taught about the Falklands in school, you have to do your own research, information is also available from France and Spain archives, the biggest bull shitter on this site is yourself, territorial integrity my arse, deluded. delusional, fantasist, rabid right wing Peronist, go to the ICJ with your so called evidence and get laughed out of court, or better still piss off back to were you were born (USA) or were your ancestors are from (Italy.) and stop infesting the South Atlantic with your poison, the Falklands are here to stay and their is nothing now or in the future,
May 27th, 2023 - 03:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Trimonde. You claim spain owned the islands and there are hundreds of documents to prove it.
May 27th, 2023 - 04:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +1So post these documents in english for all to see. They have to be witnessed and authenticated to be meaningful. If as you say you have hundreds of these documents then ask yourself just why Argentina has never took this proof to the ICJ. I wonder could it be that in truth just like your myth they dont exist.
Unless you can post actual documented authenticated proof then I sugest you shut up whinging.
While we are at it do you also have documented proof that Spain ever had a right to conquer any Part of south America. If one part of your fictitious history claims to be proof then let us have proof of everything else. You know that wont happen , just like you know there is no other legal proof that Argentina was gifted the islands and if it turns out that Argentina never was gifted these islands please tell us why Spain is not actively pursuing this claim.
All you say is indoctrinated rubbish and you know it. You are taught to stir the pot but unfortunatly for you many Argentines now know the truth and are beginning to fight back against people like you spreading lies. Lies because you hate everything British.
You can do cartwheels in your heads over this 'till the cows come home, it always comes back to the same point, which by the way Britain and the islanders make painfully obvious through their selective thinking and consistent attempts are retelling the story of the islands leaving out all the parts they rather people not know or think about. Things you often find written like “The islands were uninhabited when the islanders came to settle” and other very entertaining misleading statements. The more likely an Argentinian is unlikely to read it, the greater the lies are. It's hilarious frankly.
May 27th, 2023 - 06:15 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Bottom line, Britain after leaving the islands and yielding to Spain came back again all the way from the other side of the planet to grab them from the Argentinians when it saw they had been left alone with them and the Spanish were not going defend them anymore. Had they been British territory the British would have not had any problem in making the point clear to the Argentinians in person and diplomatically in Buenos Aires. Instead they had to sneakily take them by force only because the Americans told them they now had the opportunity to do so, and not made no announcement to Buenos Aires afterwards, save for the evidence of islanders showing up at their harbor. That's what robbers do. Not respectable countries that honor other countries as equals. The ones who were not on the islands any longer were the British but what really motivated was seeing the islanders would soon belong by proper sovereign right to an emerging country, and no longer would be up for grabs. That's what really made them act.
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What I believe is that deep in your subconscious, you all know this truth to do with human nature and simple plain morality, and that 'that' is why the British and in particular the islanders are so aggressive and hostile behind their fake subdued persona about this.
Trimonde. What I believe in is the fact that you have no evidance to back up what you say. More so because you fail to print absolute proof.
May 27th, 2023 - 09:40 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Unfortunatly it is the Argentine people who have been lied to and only now many Argentines are learning the truth, thanks to the social media. Your lies are getting beaten by progressive truth. One day all of Argentina will stop this myth and start rebuilding a future without the mythical past.
All Argentines including you have the absolute right to be told the truth. Tell your government if they want Argentina to prosper and grow start telling the truth. The myth that is engrained among the people of Argentina is done to keep them listening to their corrupt leaders who are the real pirates of a people. They have plundered your people causing poverty and economic chaos and to stop using the mythical Falklands issue to win their hearts and minds. Look how badly your corrupt leaders let their people down during 1982. Filled them with the lie that they were winning a war that they in fact were loosing. Can you remember the outcome of that dictator. Well that is the same outcome any corrupt Argentine politicians will face from an angry people when they learn the complete truth.
So before you try to push your rubbish on us and your people think hard of the consequence.
In 1771, Spain recognised Britain in the western islands of the Falklands archipelago, and, as a result, Spain only claimed one Island - Soledad - when it withdrew the garrison in 1811.
May 27th, 2023 - 09:57 pm - Link - Report abuse +2https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/88740.pdf
Argentina is not Spain.
Inheritance is a myth. If it were not, then Argentina would have gone to the ICJ in 1946.
Trimonde
May 28th, 2023 - 12:01 am - Link - Report abuse +1‘all the way from the other side of the planet to grab them from the Argentinians’.
You mean like Argentinians who came all the way from the other side of the planet to grab Argentina (as it’s called today), from the Indians?
With the Conquest of the desert and the ethnic cleansing of Puelmapu and TDF.
Really, read some Argie history, who do you think you are kidding?
Trimonde, you are far more guilty of ignoring and missing out the bits of history that you don't like than anyone else, I am not sure whether you hypocrisy is deliberate and you are trolling, or you are just incredibly dim???
May 28th, 2023 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +2The islands were empty by 1811, the Spanish left on the Galvez to Montevideo and then Spain leaving a plaque claiming Spanish sovereignty.
Argentina may wish to claim that the Falklands automatically became part of Argentina on independence, an uninhabited island group 1000 miles away, simply because they said so. That wasn't the accepted norm at the time, nor was it internationally recognised, nor (if you were honest) did the Argentine government believe it was sufficient, hence their wish to populate the islands.
So, if you were honest (I know you are not, but try for the sake of debate), in 1810 there were conflicting claims, but nobody had true sovereignty.
The Vernet business is complicated, Vernet clearly played the British and Argentine authorities off each other, and is documented on recognising both claims, and being happy with either, in the end its a moot point as his business failed.
Argentina recognised this in 1832 (and again if you were honest you'd admit) finally made an unequivocal claim to the islands in October. If the islands were de facto Argentine, and Matthew Brisbane was Argentine authority there would have been no need to send Mestevier and to “raise the flag of the United Provinces”, it would be like Biden sending someone to raise the US flag in Hawaii.
So, Argentina knew its claim was flimsy, sent a militia to finally formalise the claim and Britain evicted it, and a successful community has lived there ever since.
They are the historic facts, you know full well the weakness of the Argentine argument.
You also know the islands today are not British, they belong to the islanders, Britain is there mostly and only for their protection from dangerous zealots like you
Monkeymagic
May 28th, 2023 - 11:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Very well put.
I would only add that Argentina did relinquished their claim (unlike the British who never have) to the Islands in the 1850 Convention of Settlement (Arana–Southern Treaty).
https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/720583?ln=en
‘In May 1850, the Republic of Argentina and the United Kingdom ratified the
Convention for settlement of existing differences and the re-establishment of
friendship. In the 90 years following ratification of the 1850 Convention, the
Republic of Argentina only submitted one official diplomatic protest, in 1888.’
‘In 1863, at the same time that Spain was negotiating a treaty recognizing the Republic of Argentina as a sovereign state, the British Governor of the Falkland Islands officially received a Spanish diplomatic and scientific delegation to the British Falkland Islands and received no protest.’
Some more ‘uncomfortable truths’ for Trimonde.
Pugol_H.
May 29th, 2023 - 09:06 am - Link - Report abuse +1Spot on.
The real trouble started was when the Peronist party got elected to run the country. They were the beginning of trying to restart a myth to win the hearts and minds of a people they were now controlling.
They began to destroy the Argentine nation and successive governments have been doing it ever since. Each one blaming their predecessors for causing it, when in fact they are all in it together.
They started serious indoctrination to change the populations thinking and even had a dirty war that saw tens of thousands of their people dissapear. People who were not prepared to accept their regime changes.
Even when they were granted independence they chose to exterminate by ethnic cleansing an indigenous people from Patagonia.
They live with this fever that they must have everything they desire, even though they know that it belongs to someone else.
The one differance today is the fact we now live in an electronic world and it has become more difficult for Argentinas leaders to continue enforcing their devious ways upon it's people and the rest of the world.
The Argentine people are very much more aware of what their elected leaders are trying to do to them and they are now beginning to stand up for themselves. Still some way to go yet but change in Argentina will come and could even see the breakup of the entire country as happened in russia many years ago.
Interesting debate but so far the British cannot justify the expulsion of the Argentine inhabitants from the islands.
May 29th, 2023 - 11:41 am - Link - Report abuse -3There is no British documentation to show that they were in possession of the islands.
By the way, could someone here tell me what year the first governor of the islands was appointed and what year the islands were incorporated into the British crown?
1833, for the 100th time, NO Argentine civilians were evicted from the Falklands, only the illegal military garrison,
May 29th, 2023 - 11:53 am - Link - Report abuse +3Malvinas 1883.
May 29th, 2023 - 12:39 pm - Link - Report abuse +1As has already been said , only the Argentine forces were expelled because Argentina totally ignored Britain when Britain said not to try and occupy these lands because they were British.
Time you took the blinkers off and joined the many thousands of Argentines who have discovered the lie told by their indoctrinators.
Your regime style control is slipping and sooner rather than later you are going to have to accept it.
Your country is in a total economic mess and to fix it you are going to have to go through serious changes or risk loosing your country . Using the Falklands claim is a 190 year old one that is only kept alive as a tool to calm a growing unrested nation.
You can fool some of the people some of the time , but not all of the people all of the time.
Be worth remembering that.
@ Juan Cervantes
May 29th, 2023 - 02:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -1A military garrison is the presence of the Argentine state in place, it is much more than the non-British presence, do you understand?
@Falklands-Free
I share some concepts, however there is no answer to my question.
Malv
May 29th, 2023 - 02:30 pm - Link - Report abuse +1As I have said before, British claims are very old, Argentinian claims are very new, you need to prove when these territories stopped being British before you can talk about them being Argentinian.
Or, they are simply not Argentinian.
The British date their claim from 1690 and have never relinquished it (as Argentina did with their claim in 1850) and have since had to recover the territory from foreign invasion three times, in 1771, 1833 and 1982.
Argentina didn’t exist before 1816 (remember Spain is not Argentina) and has since twice invaded the territory and been kicked out, just like the Spanish before you.
Not much of a claim really is it.
You completely rely on the pretence that the British, their claim and history do not exist.
Not much of a strategy either.
1833, your military was told twice not to go to the islands, and warned again to leave, they ignored it, they didnt think Britain would enforce their sovereignty, how wrong they were, the civilians on the islands were an INTERNATIONAL BUISNESS venture led by a German and a Brit, nothing to do with any United Provinces government, but you know all this already as you have been told 100 times before, a few civilians left, some stayed, never was there a UP state ever, just silly words, stop wasting you life on a lie and myth, start acting friendly towards the islanders, who bother and threaten no one, start showing decency some decency to the islanders, and in time you may get some benefit from it in the future, one thing is for certain, your stupid politicians will achieve nothing, One day you may wake up and say, why have i wasted so much of my time on this nonsense,
May 29th, 2023 - 02:40 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Malvinense
May 29th, 2023 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stop trolling, you have had the answer a hundred times
“Interesting debate but so far the British cannot justify the expulsion of the Argentine inhabitants from the islands”
The military garrison that was expelled arrived only 10 weeks earlier (I am not sure 10 weeks classes anyone as an “inhabitant”), they were warned before they set off that they would be expelled, and because they had mutinied, murdered and raped, it was more than likely Argentina would have removed them anyway.
You deliberately repeating the blatant falsehood that “inhabitants” were evicted shows you have no confidence in the historical fact.
I will reword your quote so you can ask it more accurately in the future
“Interesting debate but so far the British cannot justify the peaceful expulsion of the Argentine militia who had been on the islands for 10 weeks, were warned of the expulsion before they left Argentina, and had committed murder, mutiny and rape from the islands”
there, that's better
@Pugol
May 29th, 2023 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse -1The British claims date from 1690, so it can be said that the Argentine claim dates from 1520 with the Magellan expedition. Anyway let's put this aside.
I think it is exactly the opposite.
The UK must prove when the islands were British.
In 1850 Argentina did not renounce the islands, this has already been explained many times, a new British invasion of the Río de la Plata was put to an end, which by the way it should be remembered were defeated.
Argentina arises de facto in 1810 and by law in 1816 with its independence.
Argentina is Spain, Spain administered the islands from Buenos Aires, capital of the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata, the islands were not separated, they formed the same territory.
The islands were not empty and this historical document proves it.
https://www.argentina.gob.ar/noticias/conoce-la-carta-en-la-que-san-martin-se-refiere-las-islas-malvinas
@Juan Cervantes @Monkeymagic
To warn the Argentine garrison twice, perhaps you can answer the question since what year were they in possession of the islands, what year was the first governor appointed and what year were the islands incorporated into the British crown?
Capisce....?
Malvinas-1833.
May 29th, 2023 - 11:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At least if you are going to make a myth try and put some truth into it as regards Argentina. If I am correct Argentina was not in existence in 1520 neither, was it in existence in even 1810.
You certainly are dragging from the very bottom of the pile to come up with this rubbish. Not forgetting that Argentina has never been able to prove it inherited any land or sea in the Southern region. Certainly did not conquer Patagonia at that time either.
Where do you dream up this utter rubbish. You are in fact a troll just trying to cause a lot of hatred and it is time you stopped. Like I have said many times before provide absolute written authenticated proof then take it all to the ICJ. Yu wont do that because it would have you laughed all the way out of the court.
Interestingly I was reading n another MercoPress story that Argentina is now using a last-ditch attempt to get China to give them a load of money. They really are at rock bottom and now dangerously close to using their remaining 32 billion which they say they are having to use to pay the IMF. So to try and distract attention, people like you are on these platforms dredging for stories that can avert a real internal issue looming inside Argentina.
You can come back with another load of mythical rubbish but realistically the writing is on the wall for your lot and you know it.
Couldnt have put it better Falklands Free. 1833( aka stink) is just trolling, no longer going to respond to him, he knows what the facts are, he has been told enough times, by the way a group of Argentine football fans have been to Wembley today, showed their flag and they received no hostility what so ever,
May 29th, 2023 - 11:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Malvinense
May 29th, 2023 - 11:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You already know the answers.
You are pretending that Argentina was blissfully unaware of the British claim to the islands in 1816 and thought miraculously they could claim them without inhabiting them...you know full well that isn't true. Argentina wanted the islands upon independence but knew (as was the norm at the time) they needed to inhabit them for full sovereignty.
Britain knew the same, there were “sovereignty claims”, but not full sovereignty, even Spain had not relinquished its claim, France and Uruguay could make a claim. Britain didnt need to do anything whilst the islands were empty.
This is why Argentina was very keen to inhabit the islands.
As above, the Vernet business is complicated...it is the only small portion of history that gives any support to the Argentine claim, but fails based on the fact he also knew of the conflicting sovereignty claims, requested permission from both Argentina and Britain to start his business, and was on record of admitting either sovereignty claim worked for him, ultimately he requested and received damages from Britain for failing to protect his assets from the Lexington raid, suggesting even he acknowledged British sovereignty in 1831.
So...Argentina knew Britain had a sovereignty claim, knew that Vernet had British permission to be on the islands, knew the Vernet business had failed....and then made their big play....to unequivocally seize the islands, raise the flag of the United Provinces and set Mestevier as governor.
This is clear, this was Argentina finally claiming the islands, the Sarandi left to do just that in September 1832.
Britain realised if the mission succeeded Argentina would indeed have sovereignty. So they advised that they would be evicted.
In true Argentine style, the mission failed, Mestevier was murdered, his wife raped, and the lawless militia ran amok. Pinedo may well have taken them back with him anyway.
As it was the Clio arrived and evicted them after 10 weeks.
Marv - British never left after 1771. Who do you think reported Jewett's little ceremony in 1820? because Jewett did not.
May 30th, 2023 - 12:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/jewett-report-resignation-letter-feb-1-1821-x-5-1-2-agn.pdf
As for documents, don't tell me you have forgotten the British Board of trade enquiry following the 1789 Puerto Deseado incident? Or the very public claims by France during the negotiations that ended with the Treaty of Ameins in 1802?
Problem with Argenies, is that they think history started in 1833.
Malv
May 30th, 2023 - 12:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0In 1690 the British landed on the Falklands, planted the flag and claimed the territory on the basis of previous discovery, in 1592.
This cannot be put aside.
I fail to see how the Magellan expedition of 1520 can form the basis of any Argentinian claim to the territory in today?
A Spanish expedition (Spain is not Argentina) led by a Portuguese, that may or may not have sighted the Islands, this was never confirmed, that didn’t lay claim to them anyway.
Some 296 years before Argentina ever existed in any form.
Not much of a claim really is it.
As for the British claim:
https://falklandstimeline.wordpress.com/
It has never been explained how Argentina didn’t renounce sovereignty in 1850, the evidence, the agreement, says they did.
Please, indulge me, explain exactly how it was they didn’t?
There was a naval operation in the Río de la Plata at that time, certainly not an invasion, they never set foot on land.
The agreement that ended the dispute was the Convention of Settlement, which restored relations to a ‘state of perfect harmony between the two nations’ and doesn’t mention the Falklands/Malvinas/Malouines.
Spain administered the Islands from Montevideo, not BA.
The Islands were established British territory before the Spanish Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata existed, since the time of the Governorate of the Río de la Plata, part of the Viceroyalty of Peru.
Any convicts in the Malvinas in 1816 were squatters in direct violation of long established British sovereignty, and the documents in of itself doesn’t prove anybody was there, just that somebody thought they were there.
Nothing you say bears up to critical scrutiny, you argue Bollox from start to finish.
@Redhoyt:
May 30th, 2023 - 02:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -2I am risking an answer to your question, perhaps the British governor of the islands reported the small Jewett ceremony or is he going to mention fishermen and whalers again? Jewett's difficulties only demonstrate the Argentine effort to establish itself in the islands and contrast with the British absence.
@Falklands Free:
Hey lad, I'm not trying to cause hate, it's just an exchange of opinions, in which, the only thing we agree on is that we disagree.
The UK has a piece of our occupied country, don't you think?
@Monkeymagic:
What a bunch of contradictions…..as was the norm at that time, they needed to be inhabited in order to have full sovereignty…..
Perhaps you have the answers to my questions, since what year were they in possession of the islands? In what year was the first governor appointed? And in what year were the islands incorporated into the British crown?
@Pugol: The malvinastimeline link is not very serious. It contains valid documents such as the abandonment of the islands in 1811 by Spain, but distorted and misinterpreted by Redhoyt.
Malvinas_1833.
May 30th, 2023 - 03:30 pm - Link - Report abuse +2That is an incorrect statement. Britain never took anything away from Argentina because as has already been firmly established Argentina has never had any legitimate claim. If they had it would have been presented to the ICJ and it was not.
Malvinense
May 30th, 2023 - 09:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +2There is no contradiction, possibly a lack of intelligence on your side to understand it.
in 1811 Spain left the islands empty. Whilst the islands were empty anybody could make a sovereignty claim. A claim is not the same as sovereignty, but if you like Britain first made its claim in the 1590s. In 1765 the first British settlement started under John McBride. Hopefully this answers your question.
These historic claims are just that claims, France had a claim, Spain had a claim, Uruguay had a claim, Argentina had a claim.....without a civilian population they are just claims.
Britain was quite happy with the islands being empty, as this did not threaten their “claim”.
So, this is why Vernet was very keen to be clear that his business was not a representation of the Argentine state, although later he did accept the title of governor, he was clearly trying to play both sides.
However, by 1831, the islands again were all but empty, no government representatives from any party were present, the remnants of the Vernet business were first left to the British Brisbane to run, and then another Britain William Dickson.
It is then in October 1832 unequivocally Argentina sent a government backed militia to seize the islands and formalise their claim.....they were evicted 10 weeks later.
190 years later, the islanders are still there, living prosperous and happy lives....whilst you try to rewrite embarrassing parts of Argentine history.
Marv - why didn't Jewett report his little ceremony? Possibly because the whole thing was a con to lay claim to the wreck of the Uranie.
May 30th, 2023 - 10:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Sovereignty is not dependent upon Governors. It is dependent upon effective possession - ie the ability to deal with challenges. Effective control was something that Argentina never achieved in the Falklands.
Malv
May 30th, 2023 - 11:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Ok you don’t accept the ‘malvinastimeline’ as correct/accurate, I understand/accept this.
However this aside, you have not answered a single point I have made to you, not one.
Neither do you offer any evidence to support your alternative version of events.
You completely rely on the pretence that the British, their claim and history in the region do not exist.
Do you understand the meaning of the English expression to ‘bury your head in the sand’ like and Ostridge?
@Monkeymagic:
May 31st, 2023 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Spain left the islands. Correct. Spain, not the UK. Spain was in possession of the islands, so how could they possibly belong to the UK?
Mc Bride: they arrived clandestinely, at Saunders/Trinidad islet. The islands were already inhabited, the English withdrew, leaving the islands inhabited by another power. Throughout that period there were no claims, even when Argentina was making efforts to establish itself there were no protests. Their protests came late in 1829 and 1832.
Contrary to what you say, Argentina had a population, it was treacherously destroyed by the warship Lexington entering the port with a French flag.
The surprising thing is that Great Britain was happy with the empty islands, but they demand a population from Argentina, they question the prison, they question the military garrison, they question the time (it was only 10 weeks) but Great Britain was happy with the empty islands.
Malv
May 31st, 2023 - 03:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0‘Mc Bride: they arrived clandestinely’, this is not a believable statement given the complete dominance of British sea power at that time.
And as usual you offer not one shred of evidence to support the claim.
The islands weren’t empty, the settlers (Vernet) had permission from the British to be there, only the illegal military garrison was evicted.
Nothing you say bears up to critical scrutiny, you argue Bollox from start to finish.
Malvinense 1833. Like to correct your statement. Spain left Port Louis to satisfy the British requests. It could have Kent war otherwise. It is interesting to also note the French had a settlement at Port Louis not complete ownership of the islands. The french gave their settlement to the Spanish they did not give the whole of the islands to them. This then saw the Spanish remove the Britiah from Port Egmont which was in effect piracy over land they did not own. It was that act that almost sparked a war so Spain relinquished any formal claims but Argentina has never believed that happened.
May 31st, 2023 - 03:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Malvinense
May 31st, 2023 - 05:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +1We can keep playing this game, where I disprove your entire argument and then you start afresh back at the beginning.
1) The is no inheritance, especially of uninhabited land 1000 miles away.
2) The Vernet business was NOT recognised by the British as an Argentine population, but as a private enterprise with British permission to be there, where at least two of the leaders were British.
3) The only people who were evicted had been there 10 weeks, and had committed murder and rape.
There is a stronger Argentine case for sovereignty of the Isle of Wight than there is of the Falklands.
Even if your wildest fantasy myths were true, Spain bequeathed its sovereignty rights to Argentina written in Blood, a million strong population of devout Argentines who'd been on the islands since the Big Bang were forcibly removed by the British and replaced by an implanted population....it still wouldn't give Argentina sovereignty today. The islands belong to the people who live there....just like every other remote island in the Americas
You have hit the nail on the head MM. the constant repeating of their debunked arguments is tedious to say the least, it must really hurt AC, Libby and 1833 that everything they have been forced fed over the last 30 years is not true, may be one day in the future they will move on, as for Taenk and Trimonde , they are to far gone and will be bitter till the day they die, hopefully the next generation will be better human beings,
May 31st, 2023 - 06:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Marv, Spain only claimed one island in 1811, remember?
May 31st, 2023 - 10:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +2We have the documents.
https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/88740.pdf
Spain maintained that claim until 1863.
Argentina was never in the game
Pugol: So the colony was not Argentine, it was British, which is something new for me.
Jun 01st, 2023 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0I find it strange that Onslow shows up with two warships and that the United Kingdom has not ended the dispute from the beginning with this argument.
Redhoyt: since you don't understand what I write in English, I transcribe in Spanish what the document you provided says:
……….dejando bien cerrados los edificios y colocando un escudo con las armas del Rey, que manifiesten el DERECHO DE PROPIEDAD y que en el interín subsista el citado puerto abandonado, que anualmente se destine una embarcación que vaya a reconocerlo, verificando lo mismo por lo respectivo a los otros (PUERTOS) que hay en dichas ISLAS a fin de que NO SE ESTABLEZCAN NI POSESIONEN de ellos NINGUNA OTRA POTENCIA…..
Should I continue to explain to you, like a 5-year-old child, the documents provided by you, which prove Spanish and Argentine sovereignty over the islands?
Are you still going to continue repeating like a fanatic that Spain claimed only one island?
They know Malvinense ... they know. They are just so insolently disrespectful of others that they find it normal to play stupid with the world, and act like they really mean some of the absurd logic they pretend to believe, pretending it to be all about virtuosity with as much seriousness as they can possibly fake.
Jun 01st, 2023 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I mean just looking at this statement alone ; “Falklands have a right to self determination and to choose their future” (They mean Falklanders of course) . -- WOW REALLY?? You mean people can do that??! WHAT COUNTRY DOESN'T have the right to decide it's own future? They have actually been getting away with using that stupid STUPID line for decades now, without anyone questioning its real significance, which it has none. It's not saying anything at all, it's just filling in a space that should be addressing a territorial dispute between two sovereign nations . Yes, all us people have the right to self determination. SO FU**ING WHAT? ... What they are actually trying to say, is that 2900 people on the these islands have some sacred god given right to decide on issues that concern the territorial integrity of other nations. And no one is calling them on this mockery, because people in the West NO LONGER THINK.
Trimonde 3600+ live on the island, not including 1300 military, yet another fact you have got wrong, Now Mr Regini lets cut the BS shall we , go collect up all your evidence, jump on a plane and go visit the ICJ,
Jun 01st, 2023 - 07:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who the hell told you the ICJ is our planet's required dispenser of truth and justice for the world? Has your country no will or motivation towards just wanting to be sincere fair and forthcoming of its own initiative for the good of the world? Why so adamantly do you seek to hide behind the masking of institutions that in the end were created by the UK the US and its small clutch of clients states through the sole use of the English language in their favor, much like the UN proves to be in the most insultingly obvious ways.
Jun 01st, 2023 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0-
I don't care if there were 10.000 people living on the islands, it changes nothing. The evidence is out and open in the world, able for all to grasp. Britain returned to imperialistically grab land that was NOT theirs, taking advantage of the opportunity to easily kick the defenseless and passive Argentinians off it, at the very time that country was finalizing its rightful consolidation of the islands to their Republic. Your country simply used force to rip them off, instead of talking to the Argentinians about the issue. How bad could it have gone for your country when the Argentinians were having such a hard time stabilizing a population on them? You didn't because you knew that a civilized conversation about the matter would have led ultimately to the fact that; the historical and righteously political inheritance to a sovereign republic of land practically attached to it, trumps the capricious imposition of imperialist expansionism without representation, moreover after that Empire demonstrated they weren't sure just how important or how much they wanted to hold on to that land, certainly they did not want to fight Spain over it. They left.
That's why you had to nabb them from the Argentinians, who had no way of standing up to your military power.
-
Sometimes it's really hard for me to wrap my mind around understanding, WHAT THE HELL ARE THE BRITISH SO PROUD OF??! After all the offenses and insults they've painted world history with!
Trimong, yes, we do know, we know the your pathetic claim is just that PATHETIC, you Italians and Spanish stole the whole of Argentina from the native people and you have the audacity to say Britain stole the Falklands, the islands that Britain claimed before you even existed as a country, thats historical fact, your nothing but a bitter and twisted little boy, your long winded waffle and crackpot conspiracy theories show that you need professional help, Argentina will be a lot better off when fanatical foul mouth idiots like you are long gone from this world, and then Argentina can move forward in to the modern world, p.s and what the hell do you have to be proud of, the answer is a big fat NOTHING, bitter and twisted hateful POS,
Jun 01st, 2023 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ya... you're not really saying anything meaningful Juan, other than trying to discredit by insult.
Jun 01st, 2023 - 09:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -1The matter of the islands started between France Spain and England. The English were not the first nor the only ones to claim the islands. The point is all you colonial powers of the day worked out what you did and Spain prevailed, until it decided to leave, which happened 45 years or so after Britain left the islands. By that time the Southern Cone was forming its new modern nations and per political events the Islands were rightfully ending up as Argentinian territory . Absolutely fairly as no one else was settled with any degree of sovereignty or permanent occupation , moreover we had been already administrating the islands from the Continent since 1776 through Spain . Plus we had sent our own men from Buenos Aires along side the Spanish to expel British encroachment in 1771.
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You only want to see what you need to see to escape being the villains of the story . But far be that from the simple and sensible truth of fairness and justice . The British are obviously the invasive aggressors in this whole chapter of Hispanic American history in South America constantly predating after Spanish territories all over the Continent . You seek to see a distinction regarding the Malvinas , but there isn't . It's all one story . The story of The British Empire's belligerency and ransaking exploitation of the Americas - You just refuse to accept that , and pathetically try to cancel out your admission by throwing into the equation Spain's history with the indigenous people of the continent 300 years earlier, or Argentina's. As if that was unique and different compared to the rest of the planet's history . No sweetie , don't run away . This argument concerns a dispute between London and Buenos Aires, no one else, quit trying to turn it into something else -
The evidence is quite clear, Pat the Rat, Argentina has no claim. Without the ICJ, Argentina also has no move.
Jun 01st, 2023 - 09:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Impotent.
Irrelevant.
There is nothing Argentina can do to change the situation unless it goes to the ICJ.
But then Argentina knows it will lose there too.
The Falklands are British by the will of the Falklanders.
Get used to it.
The ICJ is the route to settle international differences, twice in the past Britain has offered to go there, twice Argentina rejected it, why ? because you have no leg to stand on, if you want to debate properly then cut out the nasty bitter foul mouthed spiel. and leave your hatred towards anything British behind,
Jun 01st, 2023 - 10:12 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Britain does not need to prove anything, the facts are un their favour, how many years now has every Argentine argument been debunked, and how much evidence has been presented that Argentina was never in the game regarding the Falklands, you just choose to ignore it, on top of that you lost a pointless war, why not start acting like grown ups, hatred and bitterness just leads to more hatred and bitterness,
“People on these islands have some sacred god given right to decide on issues that concern the territorial integrity of other nations”
Jun 01st, 2023 - 10:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, they do.
“UN Charter; DECLARATION REGARDING NON-SELF-GOVERNING TERRITORIES; Article 73; Members of the United Nations which have or assume responsibilities for ..peoples have not yet attained .. self-government recognize the principle ..b. to develop self-government, ...”
“It's just filling in a space that should be addressing a territorial dispute between two sovereign nations.”
“Paragraph 80 of the ICJ Kosovo Advisory Opinion that states, “the scope for the principle for territorial integrity is limited to the relationship between individual States and does not impinge on the right to self-determination and independence.”
Malv
Jun 02nd, 2023 - 12:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Mate, you’re getting confused here:
The Islands have always been British, you have been told that many times.
And Spain did only claim one Island and Argentina is not Spain.
Also, I provided no documents here? Sorry, what are you talking about?
Trimonde
The Falklands have never legitimately been part of, or occupied by, Argentina and therefore cannot ‘disrupt the territorial integrity of Argentina’.
Any more that the British having sovereignty of the Isle of Wight can ‘disrupt the territorial integrity of Argentina’.
The matter started with the English, then the French and then the Spanish, long before Argentina ever existed.
Argentina has never been in it.
1771 was when the Spanish handed the territory back to the British, unconditionally, having been threatened with war otherwise.
‘predating after Spanish territories’, LOL nothing worth taking as far as the British were concerned and who do you suppose the Spanish ‘predated’ the territories from in the first place, eh?
I’ll give you a clue, they didn’t buy them on EBAY, conquest and ethnic cleansing was how it was done.
Having disposed of the inconvenient natives in S. America you now think you can ‘predate’ the British territories of the S. Atlantic/Antarctic as well?
No, you can’t.
@Redhoyt
Jun 02nd, 2023 - 11:36 am - Link - Report abuse -1Correct Spain maintained its claim until 1863 not only to the Malvinas Islands but also to its mainland. That year it recognized Argentina's independence.
Clarification: In this treaty the rights and obligations of the Argentine Republic are retroactive to May 25, 1810. Therefore, it recognizes the Malvinas Islands (which were under Spanish sovereignty) as Argentine territory.
In 1863 the islands were occupied by the United Kingdom, which does not imply that the territory belonged to it.
And if Redhoyt, Argentina is Spain. From its territories Argentina arose, in the treaty it is mentioned as former provinces of Spain.
Capisce….?
Trimonde.
Jun 02nd, 2023 - 01:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say Britain took land belonging to other people. Now I wonder who's land did Spain steal when they landed on South American Soil.
Don't tell me the native population said please take my land.
What arrogance you preach.
You need to seriously do your homework.
Grow up a little and start accepting reality.
People should not throw stones in glass houses.
No wonder Stgentina has got in such an economical mess. People like you are just speeding the process with your mythical imagination. You should think your stars lucky that the natives of South Anerica have not put up such a campaign against your illegal occupation of their country.
Malv
Jun 02nd, 2023 - 04:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In 1863 Spain did not control any part of the Falklands, you cannot give to someone else what you do not control/own.
Simply writing something down on paper doesn’t make it true/correct or even applicable.
In this case, clearly null and void.
@Pugol
Jun 02nd, 2023 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse -1By 1863 Spain did not control the Malvinas, nor the rest of its former provinces, Argentina had emerged, in fact in 1810, de jure in 1816. The Malvinas belonged to Spain.
The United Kingdom recognized Argentine independence in 1825 when it was in possession of the islands. At that time there were no British protests either during the Spanish or Argentine period until 1829, and I remind you that Britain did not control any part of the Malvinas.
Then explain to me in what year did Great Britain take possession of the islands? In what year did you appoint your first governor? In what year were the islands incorporated into the British crown?
Retroactive Marv? Who told you that?
Jun 02nd, 2023 - 10:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No nation exists until it is recognised. This is known as the Constitutive theory of statehood.
Does Kosovo exst?
1823 before Britain recognised the de facto existence of the UP.
1863 before the majority of European nations saw you.
The Falklands did not belong to Spain. They were disputed and Spain only claimed the one Islands. A small fact you keep forgetting, despite the evidence from Spain.
Another is that in 1824, Britain asked Argentina for all the relevant information about itself to inform the British Government as to whether a treaty was possible. The answer was long and published in three languages in London in 1825.
https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/an_account_historical_political_and_stat.pdf
No mention of a claim to the Falklands.
Argentina is not Spain, Marv.
Go learn some history
Malv
Jun 02nd, 2023 - 11:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The British always rejected the Spanish claim, which the Spanish had to accept as shown in the 1771 agreement (British version of history).
The most Argentina can claim to have inherited from Spain was a dispute, Spain certainly did not have control of the Islands to give to Argentina.
British recognition of the independence of the UP, whose struggle for independence the British had actively supported, did not include the British Falklands.
The settlement there at that time had permission from the British to be there, no doubt who owned it or controlled it as was demonstrated in 1771 and 1833.
Britain took possession of the territory in 1765, on the basis of previous landing on and claiming of the territory in 1690, on the basis of previous discovery in 1592.
None of this is disputable. When did Argentina first exist, and first define what, where and who you define as Argentina?
According to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_history_of_the_Falkland_Islands
‘1840: The British approve the formation of a colony on the islands.’
Before which it was British territory, Crown Territory, as described in the Anglo Spanish agreement of 1771.
It also says:
‘1841: General Rosas offers to relinquish any claim to sovereignty over the Falkland Islands in return for the relief of the Argentine debt to City of London interests. The British decline the offer. Lt. Governor Moody is appointed as the first British Governor of the Islands, a Letters Patent establishes the legal framework for the colony.’
And:
‘1850: Britain and Argentina sign the “Convention between Great Britain and the Argentine Confederation, for the Settlement of existing Differences and the re-establishment of Friendship”. Several historians (Argentine, British and Latin American) consider this has a negative impact upon Argentina's modern sovereignty claim.’
Go Figure.
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