MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
UK warned EU of “Argentina's misinterpretation” on any Falklands reference
The British press is revealing some of the facts surrounding the European Union/Community of Latin American and Caribbean States summit, held in the third week of July in Brussels when Argentina celebrated that in the controversial final communiqué, a reference to the Falklands was changed to Malvinas Islands. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesCELAC espouses democracy, shared values and is ‘guided by the UN Charter and protection of all human rights and fundamental freedoms’, while blatantly ignoring the basic human and democratic rights of the Falkland Islanders. In this respect, the organisation’s declarations regarding the Falkland Islands can be described as hypercritical, archaic, and irrelevant.
Aug 09th, 2023 - 09:07 am - Link - Report abuse +2The EU, CELAC and the Falklands: https://www.academia.edu/104850418/CELAC_and_the_Falklands
TWIMC...
Aug 09th, 2023 - 11:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0As the above article correctly notes;... a EU spokesman did say...: “The EU is not in a situation to express any position on the Islas Malvinas/Falklands..., as there is not any EU Council discussion on this matter....”
I say...;
Indeed..., there is not any EU Council discussion on this matter..., YET... :-))))))
- Tænk is happy to see tha Brutish Bulldog turning into an auld, irrelevant Paper Bulldoggy..., that only produces long & noisy mephitic farts...
Chuckle..., chuckle...
Oh dear Trunk.
Aug 09th, 2023 - 11:06 am - Link - Report abuse +6The British Bulldog is just fine. Its well enough that just a handful of its defence spend scares the crap out of Argentina and means that cowards like you would never again try and steal the islanders home that you are so jealous of.
Just “think”...14 years of your wasted “ long & noisy mephitic farts” and Argentina are no closer, poor you..wasted life.
Gooood Engrish dog... :-)
Aug 09th, 2023 - 11:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0https://m.youtube.com/shorts/pozaDcI-Yt8
Storm in a teacup. Documents within the EU involving Spain have always used the Malvinas name. The French still use Malouines. Of little consequence. The Islanders know where they live.
Aug 09th, 2023 - 11:18 am - Link - Report abuse +4Contrary to what you said a couple of weeks ago..., Copper..., that Brutish Cleverly minister with the nice Obama tan..., seems to have Cleverly noticed the upcoming consequences... ;-)
Aug 09th, 2023 - 01:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Capisce...?
Think
Aug 09th, 2023 - 01:28 pm - Link - Report abuse -4There are already, within an eventual free trade agreement between Mercosul-EU, some clauses that impose negotiations and recognition of domain over the Falklands Islands.
Of course, the UK will veto such clauses. Or does the UK no longer have power over the European Union?
BREXIT kkkkk
Did the Brits actually think that the EU would miss a chance to say “Well you didn't expect our support after pulling out of our club did you?”
Aug 09th, 2023 - 01:52 pm - Link - Report abuse +5Mr. MarkWhelan...
Aug 09th, 2023 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Them Bruts are luckily gone..., but their Club Fees are faaar from being paid yet... ;-)))
https://www.bbc.com/news/51110096
https://www.bbc.com/news/51110096
Briton showed me this song for the first time:
Aug 09th, 2023 - 03:02 pm - Link - Report abuse -2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlwdOK3KhZQ&list=FLmXPTu1f8AdGlizWNiASx2A&index=4
Ya' like Epic music..., Brasileiro...?
Aug 09th, 2023 - 04:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Here's a piece from a Lass that sang with her heart...
(I know ya'll like it..., and them Anglos will hate it... ;-)))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaS3vaNUYgs&pp=ygUZc2luZWFkIG8nY29ubm9yIGZvZ2d5IGRldw%3D%3D
Hey The Think can you explain the historical context of the song?
Aug 09th, 2023 - 09:42 pm - Link - Report abuse -5Does the song refer to the armed struggle of the I.R.A in Ireland?
Esatamente señò...;-)
Aug 09th, 2023 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To S Potts here, I fixed your post of a malicious academic paper, so it reflects the truth of Malvinas Islands: The UK and its Malvinas/Falklands colony declares to be democratic & be ‘guided by the UN Charter and protection of all human rights and fundamental freedoms’, while blatantly ignoring the basic human and democratic rights of the Argentinian people . In this respect, the UK defence of its imperialist decisions on Malvinas Islands are hypocrite, archaic, and anti-democracy.
Aug 10th, 2023 - 10:19 am - Link - Report abuse -6Malvinense, 'The Foggy Dew' song, by Sinead O'Connor, refers to the Easter rising of 1916, & talks of the Irish nationalists that believed Irishmen should have stayed in Ireland to fight for its independence from the UK, rather than to fight for the British Empire in the 1st great war.
All in all, there is still imperialism in the Atlantic South, where its citizens have usurped the Argentinian Malvinas Islands for almost two centuries.
@ Geography and history rights
Aug 10th, 2023 - 10:43 am - Link - Report abuse -2Thank you very much for your answer, thank you very much.
You're more than welcome, Malvinense 1833!
Aug 10th, 2023 - 11:07 am - Link - Report abuse -2G&HR
Aug 10th, 2023 - 01:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +5Argentina have no rights to the Falklands, that is why they make up fairy stories which you yourself repeat.
You have said an Argentine population was evicted in 1833, it was not.
You have claimed descendent of the Spanish colony were evicted, they were not.
You have claimed Argentina inherited the islands from Spain at a point when Spain had already vacated the islands.
You have claimed the islands are Argentine due to “continental shelf” conveniently forgetting Patagonia wasn’t Argentine until long after 1833.
Argentina have no rights for Britain to ignore, just lies and he’d time stories that you are too dim and brain washed to see through.
Secret: your Peronist leaders don’t actually want the islands, they wasn’t to unite the masses against an imaginary enemy so you don’t notice when they anally abuse you. You are so dumb you give them lube.
@Monkey
Aug 10th, 2023 - 01:59 pm - Link - Report abuse -4The attitude of His Britannic Majesty’s government shows that uti possidetis was opposable to Britain, since the Falkland/Malvinas Islands were subject to Spanish sovereignty. European powers did not react to the assertion that no terrae nullius existed in Latin America. The analysis of international practice and jurisprudence in cases of territorial disputes between a Latin American State and an extra-continental power leads to the conclusion that uti possidetis was applicable to the extra-continental States.
In the Isla de Aves case, which opposed Venezuela and the Netherlands in the 19th century, the arbitral award issued by Isabel II, Queen of Spain, found in favour of the South American state. The main basis of the decision is that the island in dispute belonged to the Audiencia of Caracas during the colonial period and that upon becoming an independent nation, Venezuela was constituted on the territory of the Captaincy-General of the same name by which it could consider the Isla de Aves to be part of the Spanish province of Venezuela [...] the Venezuelan government was the first to establish its armed forces and to carry out acts of sovereignty, thus confirming the dominion it had acquired by general title it derived from Spain.
Acts of sovereignty are therefore considered to confirm a pre-existing title of succession. An identical analysis can be made in regard to Argentina’s takeover of the Falklands/Malvinas in 1820.
Hello Malvinense 1833, I'm glad to see your post. I've been posting about the 'uti possidetis juri (or iuri) as the right of former colonies to maintain the sovereignty e integrity of their former colonial territories after their independence, but every time it gets ignored or they try to put down the validity of this principle of international law as a contradiction to the Peace of Utrecht 1713 article VIII!!! The International Court of Justice not only accepted this principle, but used it to rule on Burkina Faso/Mali as well on sovereignty disputes.
Aug 10th, 2023 - 02:39 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Some comments on these threads are just rude and unworthy to be responded to.
The case of the island of Trindade is even more interesting when considering the Falklands/Malvinas, as it directly involves the United Kingdom. The Brazilian island was uninhabited when, in 1895, one of Her Britannic Majesty’s ships took possession of it. The dispute was finally settled thanks to the mediation of the Portuguese government, who found in favour of Brazil. The United Kingdom accepted the mediator’s point of view. The Portuguese proposal unequivocally asserted:
Aug 10th, 2023 - 03:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -2“When, under the Treaty of Rio de Janeiro of the 29th August, 1825, Portugal proclaimed the independence of its ancient Colony, the Island of Trinidad was transferred to Brazil, together with the group to which it belongs, for formal possession by the new Empire. There could be no doubt in the mind of His Majesty's Government on that point, although no special mention of this transfer is made in the Treaty referred to, the island being, as it was annexed for administrative purposes to the Province of Espíritu Santo, a dependency of the Captaincy Major of Rio de Janeiro”
Any doubts regarding the territorial extension of the new States of Latin America were dissipated by the Foreign Secretary, George Canning, during the mediation between Argentina and Brazil in the dispute over the Banda Oriental (now Uruguay). The instructions given by Lord Canning to the British Minister Lord Ponsonby on March 18th, 1826, read
”(...) Your Lordship will observe to the Brazilian Ministers, that unless by a general tacit agreement, the States of the New World be admitted to stand towards each other, in respect to geographical rights and limits, exactly as they stood when Colonies, questions of the utmost perplexity will infallibly arise out of their rival and conflicting pretensions; and the whole Continent of America, whether Spanish or Portuguese, will ultimately be laid open to the designs of any enterprising adventurers, who may think fit to carve out for themselves new dominions.”
Credits: Kohen-Rodriguez
G&H, Some comments on these threads are just rude and unworthy to be responded to,?
Aug 10th, 2023 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +1if you had bothered to check you will find the most rude and immature posters are 2 of your fellow countrymen, one who has wasted 15 years of his life posting exactly what you say and another that has spouted nothing but vile racist comments, now getting back to thread, If you feel so confident about your evidence then take it to the International Court of Justice, other than that just get on with living your life and enjoy what little life we all have left, all you are doing is quoting the same stuff as other Argentine posters have done, every argument put forward has been debunked, Britain does not want the Falklands , they get nothing from it, but they will defend the right of the 4,000 people to choose their own future, when the population and economy is large enough then they will an independent country and a full full member of the UN, with people of 60 nationalities living in the islands they are open to friendship with anyone including Argentina,
Malvi I
Aug 10th, 2023 - 04:39 pm - Link - Report abuse +4I am glad you have moved from the expelled population made up nonsense to the inherited from Spain made up nonsense, it is progress.
All of the examples you give had a population. Had the Spanish population on the islands remained and stated clearly they wished to be Argentine then you may have a point. They didn’t, they left in 1811 and went back to Spain.
Spain vacated the islands willingly, leaving only claims.
The next sustained and successful population after the Spanish of 1811 is the current one 1833-2023.
That’s it
Hello G&H, uti possidetis is a principle of international law applied by the International Court of Justice, as you well explain.
Aug 10th, 2023 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse -5I use some paragraphs from the work of the authors Kohen-Rodríguez to explain to the Anglos.
It is very good to see your post too.
@Juan You have to admit that Monkey has crossed the limits this time.
@ Monkey You do not recognize the expulsion of the Argentine population, you do not recognize the Spanish heritage, you do not recognize the continuous presence of Spain exercising sovereignty, read the post above the cases of Aves Island and Trindade Island.
Malvi, not sure what line you think Monkey Magic has crossed ?, the Falklanders and Britain do not recognise any of your facts/evidence, Argentina does not recognise British/Falklands evidence, what ever, its 200 years ago for goodness sake territorial battles were going on all over the place, its time to move on, there are far more important things to worry about, Argentina needs to get rid of the Peronists for good, Britain needs to get rid of the Conservatives, Russia needs to get rid of Putin and so on , this subject is all just crazy nonsense, if Argentina moved on then one day the Falklands and Argentina can be friends, but all this attempted bullying will achieve nothing, i support a football team that has Argentine players and the English fans love them, no animosity or hostility, there are Argentines living happily in the Falklands. no problems, can you not see its all nonsense, history is history, 2 wars with Germany but now the UK and Germany have no issues, one day all this silly nonsense will be forgotten, may be not in my life time but it will one day,
Aug 10th, 2023 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hello Malvinense1833, thank you for your message. Our Malvinas Argentinas brought me here, the site was recommended to my in a browser search, & since then I have tried to participate in a dialogue with the British living in our islands (and some in the UK, I can see), but is sad the lack of historical knowledge they have, and the lack of interest of integrating with the area where they live. Other contemporary British colonies have a healthier approach to experience other cultures, but not here. Truth be said, those other colonies, such as NZ, and Australia were colonised by the British Empire, not usurped land like Malvinas, though.
Aug 10th, 2023 - 10:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -4I thought I would participate & bring the South America history as it happened, so they can research by themselves an form an educated opinion, but I realise how futile this is, as they just ignore history and geography, & try to cut valid arguments with offensive language.
Sometimes the message is to just move on, as if they truly expect us to forget our rights just because they decided to keep our land by usurpation. This is as wrong today, as it was the two previous times when they invaded the Malvinas Islands. Friendship will only be a result of the islands coming back to their motherland, Argentina.
Here we go again, G&H , there are no British living in your islands what there is is a people from 60 nations living in peace in a self governing BOT, ,they are not your islands and never have been and never will be unless the islanders choose so, why should they integrate, its their home not yours, so the only time the Falklands and Argentina can be friends is if Argentina takes control over a land it has never owned, it is people with your attitude that cause wars and hostility, may be its time to stop all Argentine visits to the military war graves. you do not have an educated opinion at all, what you have is years of lies and indoctrination which is fed to school children, which his no different to what Hitler and Chairman Mao did, so in your own words we can never be friends, that is fine, the new airport has made you obsolete and irrelevant,
Aug 10th, 2023 - 11:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0G&HR
Aug 11th, 2023 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse +1You did not bring an educated opinion you brought the same rehashed nonsense spewed for years, you gibberish about the human rights of Argentines being affected , your blatant lies about the expulsion of a population, your blatant lies about the descendents of Spanish Governors, fabricated nonsense about continental shelves and complete ridiculous notions about inheritance. All made up fantasy.
British India used to control Yemen from Bombay . According to you the people of India could seize sovereignty of Yemen today against the will of the people of Yemen. It’s ludicrous nonsense.
GeoFray & Marv
Aug 11th, 2023 - 01:46 am - Link - Report abuse +1Please persuade your government to take your UPJ theories to the ICJ. The judges like a laugh, same as the rest of us.
“(Argentina) argues that it inherited the former Spanish colonial territory in accordance with the uti possidetis doctrine when it became independent, a disputed doctrine in international law.”
[Falkland Islands/Malvinas Michael Waibel 2011 in Max Planck Encyclopedia of Public International Law 2011]
What a pity Mr Lorton that you decided to take a patronizing approach at what I considered so far a positive discussion. It seems I was mistaken in assuming some of you would dare to research & think for yourselves.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 04:10 am - Link - Report abuse -3The information I have posted is readily available for any of you to read, analyze and evaluate. Apparently, it is too much effort to do this, so the British residents of the Malvinas Islands resolve to insult, and laugh rather than to assume an adult approach to a serious problem. Negating an issue, such as the dispute on the Question of Malvinas, won’t make it disappear just because you keep labelling valid supporting points as ‘lies'.
John Cervantes, if you can call years of law training indoctrination, then that is what I am. I can’t say I am a lawyer, but years of studies, that I have. I am well read as well, and don’t hesitate to perform analytic research of English peer reviewed papers. I can do this because I am not afraid of considering the British perspective. These considerations have weighted in validating Argentina’s sovereignty and right to its territorial preservation.
‘Britain don’t want the Malvinas/Falkland, they don’t get nothing of it.’ Are you sure? They are desperately looking for oil, & considering how to pay the billions of euros they owe to continental Europe as part of the Brexit ‘divorce’. On the other hand, they keep making unilateral decisions on Malvinas affairs.
Even if the truth is in front of you, you wouldn’t see it, because you don't want to acknowledge it.
I sincerely wish our government realize that the diplomatic path is exhausted. Although I don’t make the decisions, I am confident that Argentina has the necessary legal and geographical elements to obtain a positive ruling at the IC of J.
G&HR
Aug 11th, 2023 - 04:43 am - Link - Report abuse +1The pity is with you, the lies that you spew have been debunked 100s of times, 900 people died in 1982 because of those lies.
It is verifiable historic fact that no Argentine population was expelled in1833, indeed not a single Argentine who arrived before oct 1832 was told to leave, not one. It is inPinedos own record, read it and stop lying.
So, as there was no population there is no injured party and no group to claim that the islands were taken from them. Verifiable historic fact.
You claim descendant’s of the Spanish colony are having their human rights affected, again rubbish, the Spanish left in 1811 due to the Napoleonic Wars and returned to Spain via Uruguay, they didn’t become Argentine . Vernet left the islands voluntarily in 1831 leaving two Britons in charge he was never blocked from returning.
The continental shelf argument is nonsense, applies nowhere and ignores the genocide of Patagonia 30 years after 1833.
So we have only the inheritance argument, it is clear Argentina would like to have inherited the islands, but for every example of inheritance of islands there are a dozen examples of not, and over 50 where todays population decide for themselves.
So of all the learning opportunities, you have failed to learn a thing, read the logs of the Sarandi and see there was no eviction, look at virtually every Caribbean island run today by the inhabitants.
It is you who is blind of the learning opportunity whilst you dance on the graves of the Argentine war dead. Your lies do them a huge disservice.
The only solution is your Peronist government admits the Malvinas lie apologises to the Argentine people and the islanders and the islanders live in peace.
GeoFray - your waffle does not impress.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 04:43 am - Link - Report abuse +1Argentina claims an inheritance.
Britain says there was no such inheritance.
Now what?
The problem is Roger that if that was the extent of the Argentine claim and they kept to the truth it would be an interesting discussion, but they cannot help themselves, lying appears to be in their DNA.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 06:10 am - Link - Report abuse +3Apparently “years of studying” didn’t show our friend that there was no expulsion of an Argentine population. Years of studying didn’t show our friend that Argentina stopped 1000 miles north in1833 so a continental shelf argument is nonsense.
We could debate the merits of inheritance if the lies were removed.
Inheritance is opinion, as above Britain administered Aden from Bombay, the idea that this gives India sovereignty of Yemen is ludicrous.
Spain left the islands in 1811 voluntarily before Argentine independence. The Spanish returned to Spain.
Argentina failed to develop a population on the islands, the were fewer than 40 people on the islands in Sept 1832 and many of them were British including the leader.
However, any poster who repeats the expulsion lie and the continental shelf nonsense is either a liar or an imbecile, or probably both.
G&H. years of law training ?. it is what you have been trained on is the problem ,false information fed to you over many years, believing the lies and myths that you have been indoctrinated with, Spain claimed the islands in 1520 did they ?, Rubbish, not even 1% true, no one knows for certain who saw the islands first, but Britain was the first to claim them, long before the UP and Argie land existed, your obsession with the word usurping is the most laughable, why did Buenos Aires send military forces twice? to take them by force thats why. they new full well that Britain had already a long standing claim. they were warned not to do it twice and warned again to leave, no Argentine civilians were expelled, the few people that lived there were people of a multi national business venture led by a German Vernet and a Brit, nothing to do with Buenos Aires. . most certainly not an Argentine settlement, you call other people patronising and many other things. i suggest you look in the mirror before calling other people names, you inherited nothing, there was nothing to inherit, just like you didnt inherit Cuba, Hispaniola , Chile, Peru, Paraguay, Bolivia or any other Spanish speaking land, go learn the true history of the Falklands not the lying propaganda fed to you.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 07:46 am - Link - Report abuse +1I am still laughing at years of legal training, and how anyone who doesn’t agree with me is not taking the opportunity to be “educated” , the misplaced arrogance, the unbelievable self delusion.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 10:29 am - Link - Report abuse +2Lawyers require evidence, so taking the first Malvinas argument about eviction, I would look for evidence….it would not take years to find it. Pinedo kept good records, we can see that nearly everyone who left on the Sarandi and Rapid in January 1833 had arrived on the Sarandi in October 1832. The remainder had either requested safe passage back to the mainland and were on the Sarandi before the Clio arrived, were arrested by Pinedo or were not Argentine. So no Argentine community expelled. Myth 1 destroyed with no legal training.
Myth 2 continental shelf, I can count over 40 islands that are on the American continental shelf that do not have sovereignty forced on them by the nearest country (which in 1833 would be Chile not Argentina) no need for years of study there either.
The greater part of the study appears to be around inheritance. This is opinion and there are numerous cases including in South America where borders look nothing like under colonialism, and certainly administering cities do not dictate new borders anywhere. With a little research (not years) it can be seen that none of the final Spanish population became Argentine, they returned to Spain via Montevideo. This was in 1811 before independence, therefore there was no Spanish sovereignty to inherit and no Spanish islanders to give an opinion.
Again, years of study are not needed for this education.
There are wafer thin elements of the Malvinas case, Vernet did accept the title of governor but left after the Lexington raid, Spain did have sovereignty….but the idea that years of study would be to conclude the islands are Argentine and the islanders be forced to live under a corrupt Peronist laughing stock is preposterous.
Years of study should say that sovereignty choice lies with the inhabitants.
Sunday August 30.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 11:08 am - Link - Report abuse -2A very good day in Santa Rosa de Lima, and for what Vernet determines to take the position of the Islands today on behalf of the Government of Buenos Aires. At twelve the inhabitants met, the national flag was hoisted, at which time twenty-one cannon shots were fired, repeating without ceasing the long live the homeland. I put each one in the hat with ribbons the two colors that distinguish our flag. The Commander was recognized.
Sunday October 25
Good time. At eleven o'clock in the morning the wedding of Antonio and Marta was celebrated, they swore eternal fidelity before four witnesses, and the Godparents, who were the Mistress and one of the laborers, signed the contract and agreed to formalize it by the Church. to go to Bs. Ays. The godparents gave him a treat and dance at night (...)
But of course you will never see the existence of Argentine inhabitants.
Roger please add this to your timeline which is very distorted and incomplete.
One small point about the vacating of “The Falklands” in 1811 by the Spanish.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 11:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0At this particular point of time the islands were in fact “Disputed Territory” in that both Argentina and Spain both had claim on the land. The fact was that during this time neither actually had a claim recognised by the other party. During this time the land was not owned by either government due to the ”Argentine War of Independence (1810 - 1818).
Marv - Luis Vernet was trespassing in 1829.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 12:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Read pages 129 & 132
https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2022/12/1816-to-1829.pdf
Malvi
Aug 11th, 2023 - 01:24 pm - Link - Report abuse +2More irrelevant nonsense. Luis Vernet knew of the dispute and played both sides, however he left the islands in 1831 by his own choice and chose never to return .
He made Matthew Brisbane ( British) his business deputy who also left in 1832 but returned in 1834, when Brisbane left in 1832 he left William Dickson in charge who was there when the Sarandi arrived . An awful lot of Senior British people in this Argentine population run by a German.
Interestingly not a single one of this “Argentine population” were evicted in 1833. A few left with Vernet, most weren’t Argentine and the rest ( about 20 of multiple nationalities) stayed and prospered under the British. None were evicted.
Good try though. Still no inheritance, no usurpation, no eviction and no real reason for your obsession to colonise the Falkland’s against the will of the islanders.
Sr.G&H Rights.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 01:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Some humble thoughts 'bout your last comment:
You write:
“What a pity Mr Lorton that you decided to take a patronizing approach”
I say:
Mr. Lorton can't help himself. After all, he's but a true Engrishman talking down to a foreigner, and an Ex-Copper.
You write:
“the British residents of the Malvinas Islands resolve to insult, and laugh rather than to assume an adult approach to a serious problem”
I say:
There ain't no “British residents of Malvinas” in this thread. Not one...
(Usually, Kelper's comments are much better than those of the Brainwashed Anglo Turnips ;-)
You write:
“Juan Cervantes, if you can call years of law training indoctrination, then that is what I am.”
I say:
Well, you have met the favourite Brainwashed Anglo Turnip's argument to dismiss any discrepancy with any Argie.
Are you contrary to the recent Anglo destruction of Jugoslavia? = You're “Indoctrinated”
Are you contrary to the recent Anglo destruction of Iraq? = You're “Indoctrinated”
Are you contrary to the recent Anglo destruction of Libya? ='You're “Indoctrinated”
Are you contrary to the recent Anglo destruction of Syria? ='You're “Indoctrinated”
Are you contrary to the recent Anglo destruction of Afghanistan? ='You're “Indoctrinated”
Are you contrary to the longstanding Anglo ocupation of Malvinas...? ='You're “Indoctrinated”
Etc...
in April 1982, after six years of harsh dictatorship and censorship..., people in Argentina were kind of “Indoctrinated” to quietly accept that stupid “Military Special Operation” to recover the Malvinas.
An ill-designed and misled “Special Operation” by the most corrupt and criminal Argentine Armed Farces Top Brass in history.
- (Btw...: SEVEN out of the NINE generals, admirals & brigadiers composing our three Juntas were trained in the USA.)
Wonder what the Brainwashed Anglo Turnips excuse is, nowadays in 2023, to quitely accept the ANGLO provoked 2014 ongoing war in Ukraine and the ANGLO widely announced upcomming war against China..???
There you have it G&H, immature name calling by a troll posting for 15 years, who quit your country to go live a better (sad) life in Europe, what Anglo destruction of Afghanistan man baby,?. was it not a breeding ground and training ground for terrorist to attack all western countries, and boy do the women and children still wish western forces were still there, what Anglo destruction of Syria man baby,? Anglo involvement was very small, mainly to help the Kurds, and stop genocide by ISIS, ,NATO were involved in Yugoslavia man baby, again to stop genocide were evil Bosnian Serbs were wiping out Muslims, again man baby NATO tried to help Libya , nothing more, the same NATO that keeps you safe and free in Europe, the only vegetable that posts on this site is the cabbage that has wasted 15 years of his life posting childish racist comments . Argentina is better off with out you,
Aug 11th, 2023 - 02:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Invading what or whom? Please Roger, I said without distortion.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 03:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Monkey mentions 10 weeks of the Argentine population. According to him, the period of time spent in the place is not enough for them to be Argentine.
After the British withdrawal and recognition of Spanish sovereignty, explain to me how it is possible then that the islands are British without any population.
Mention the name of the British colony.
Mention the name of a British colonist.
Mention the name of a British governor.
Mention the year of the incorporation of the islands to the British Crown.
Hello Malvinense 1833 and Mr Taenk, thank you for your words. I had a feeling that posters on these threads are British keyboard warriors from the north hemisphere, whom main job is trying to mislead & create confusion with their false claims. You just confirm what I suspected all this time.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 03:17 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Mr Taenk, your analysis of the way the British dismiss any argument, even if the original source shows them the contrary is true, is spot on. Thank you for posting it.
I was a young girl when our troops recovered Islas Malvinas, and I remember people in Argentina celebrating in the plazas of each city, even if they were against the de facto government, which as you so eloquently put it, was 'approved' by the USA.
As any Argentinian, you know how close to our heart Malvinas Islands are; I have much respect for our fallen soldiers, and the bravery of our Malvinas’ veterans: pilots and field soldiers, medical and mechanic personnel, and every one that in a total unbalanced David vs Goliat fought against the British imperialists with the support of USA, Canada, and Europe. And whether they like it or not, whether they acknowledge it or not, our heroes brough their fleet to their knees.
They showed the same bravery as when our ancestors fought them and expulsed them during the 1806 and 1807 British Empire invasions of Buenos Ayres.
We are a thorn in their imperialist history: the only country (as far as I know) that wasn’t afraid to defend themselves against their imperialists ambitions. Long live Argentina y viva la Patria!!!
What nonsensical rubbish you are writing G&H, if you think the so called man called Taenk talks sense then you are nothing but a foolish man yourself, he is nothing but a laughing stock on this site, everyone packed up trying to have sensible debates with him months ago, he acts like a 6 year old,, you are no thorn what so ever in any ones side, again spewing stupid quotes , imperialistic ambitions ? straight out of a political activists hand book,, let this sink in to your brain,, Britain gave up its Empire and has no wish to ever have an empire ever again, the Falklands can have independence tomorrow if they choose the UK gets nothing from there and wants nothing from those islands. , long live Argentina, yeah right, the most corrupt bankrupt Western democracy in the world, and yet you are not clever enough to see how useless the Peronists have been for your country, as a Lawyer you have a lot to learn about life democracy and freedom, david v goliath you clown, your troops outnumbered the true heroes 3 to 1, your Airforce outnumbered the harriers 3 to one, your navy ran off never to be seen again, your disgusting troops fouled the homes of civilians with their shit, if you think they are heroes then you are a very deluded man, whether you like it or not the Falklands are here to stay, and in time will be an independent country and a paid up member of the UN, thousands of people from all over the world will want to come and liver there, go get educated on life, because you are clueless,
Aug 11th, 2023 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +1A su servicio..., señora G.& H.R.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 04:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0-Por las dudas..., por sí acaso y por si las moscas..., quiero dejar bién, pero bién clarito que mi total y absoluto rechazo y desprecio por nuestras “Farsas Armadas” del 82..., se reparte aproximadamente en los siguientes porcentajes...:
Nuestros “Altos Mandos”........... : 90%
Nuestra “Oficialidad restante”...: 8%
Nuestros Pilotos.....................................: 0,00%
Nuestra “Suboficialidad”............: 2%
Nuestros chicos conscriptos.................: 0,00%
Desde el levante del golfo del Tigullio..., saludos patagónicos de un Chubutense cordillerano...
El Tænk...
What a very silly man you are Senor Taenk,
Aug 11th, 2023 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hello G&H, I'm so glad you're here.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 09:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Our British friends are experts in misrepresenting history, especially Roger Lorton who with real data builds his own story to his liking and pleasure.
They are one step away from saying that Mr. Bougainville, Felipe Ruíz Puente, Vernet and the colony were of British nationality.
I hope you continue here contributing your knowledge to the debate.
Long live Argentina y Viva la Patria!!!
Long live the Falkland Islanders. May they always live in freedom.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 10:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0May they be saved from Argentine colonialism, expansionism, imperialism, and thievery.
Malvi, you are the one that constantly misrepresents history, you live in a fantasy world, your claim of usurping has been destroyed over and over again, your mythical claim of an Argentine settlement has been proven to be a pack of lies, your so called inheritance from Spain has been knocked out the park time and time again, but you keep regurgitating the same old nonsense time and time again, as for G&H, she is very condescending and brings no knowledge to the debate at all, she is just repeating the debunked claims that AC Libby and yourself has been spouting for the last 6 months, she said herself she was a little girl when your evil junta invaded the Falklands, all she knows is the lies the fantasy and the myth that she has been fed over the years, at no point has she been objective, spouting nonsense about key board warriors and misleading and confusion, its pretty pathetic really, and the biggest laugh of all is her claiming she has evidence to win at the ICJ, bust my ribs laughing at that, Argentina have been scared to go to the ICJ, because the outcome is obvious to anyone with a brain., it still grates you today that the beagle conflict found in favour of Chile, on top of that you are now coming out with nationalistic clap trap (long live Argentina ) pretty pathetic really isnt it, nobody has ever said there were not some Argentines on the islands, What there was was there a PRIVATE business venture led by a GERMAN VERNET and a BRIT , nothing to do with the United Provinces at all, Vernet new that so did Brisbane and the rest, check the Sarandi log, Britain was the first to claim the islands, before France, long before Spain and long long before the UP existed, go search Spain and Frances historical records, and then get out of southern Argentina and give the land back to the natives, the true owners of the land you stole,
Aug 11th, 2023 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0GeoFray - you did not answer my question.
Aug 11th, 2023 - 10:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Argentina claims an inheritance.
Britain, says there was no such inheritance.
Now what?
Malvinense
Aug 12th, 2023 - 05:35 am - Link - Report abuse +3I did not say 10 weeks didnt make them Argentine, yet another lie from you. I gave three very clear requirements:
1) Had to have arrived BEFORE October 1832
2) Had to be Argentine
3) Had to have been evicted against there will by the British
In the logs of the SS Sarandi (Argentine documents) NOBODY fits that criteria, you know it I know it.
10 weeks doesn't make you an inhabitant or a civilian population. 190 years does.
as for G&HR, seems like she has wasted “years of legal training” as all she did was find wafer thin nonsense to support her already decided position, and ignore the wealth of evidence that contradicts it......typical deceitful, lying, Argentine nutter....whose condescending misplaced arrogance is hilarious
Woah what have we here, Malv meets G&H and love at first post, and including Stink we have a ‘thicket’ of Argys.
Aug 12th, 2023 - 02:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No doubt they will have beautiful, if somewhat indoctrinated babies.
This Argy version of history they espouse is like Sr Cafiero’s version of UN resolutions, not supported by the evidence.
Fact is the British are the oldest power in the S. Atlantic and are not going anywhere, Argentina is struggling to survive as a country and by any metric is going backwards.
These stories bring them comfort, they need it, one day they might realise its total Bollox, but for now that is too much for the poor dears.
Meanwhile Argentina is kept within its 200nml continental limit and the British territories of the S. Atlantic/Antarctic are able to develop free from foreign interference.
Huzzah, God save the King.
Has GeoFray(a) left the fray?
Aug 12th, 2023 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And without answering my question.
How rude ;-)
This is the funniest thread in years.....we have to thank GeoF for it.
Aug 13th, 2023 - 05:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0She arrived all pumped up with her “years of research” untested by any critical thought or analysis. We heard of fairy tales of evictions and usurpations and continental shelves and inheritance....how lucky were were for the education.
As one by one the balloons were popped with real historic evidence, the logs of the Sarandi showing no eviction of an Argentine population, the fact that Patagonia wasn't part of Argentina in 1833 so no continental shelf argument, and zero evidence of inheritance but wishful thinking.....she reverted to type....
“Long live Argentina y Viva la Patria”
A nationalistic blindness, blindness to facts, reason or democracy wrapped in an Argentine flag. Her recounting of the Falklands war is as offensive to all the fallen as it is untrue.
A proper brainwashed loon.....but at least we were all “educated”
Laugh my 'Arris off
Inconvenient truths of Malvinas (Falkland) #11
Aug 13th, 2023 - 06:15 am - Link - Report abuse -3Mr Lorton, we’ve been at a crossroad since 1833. Argentina’s diplomacy consistently protested the British invasion. Britain continuously ignored multiple calls to negotiate, & to avoid to act unilaterally. In fact, they’ve acted by OMISSION. They don’t respect the rules, unless it benefits them. This situation hasn’t changed for the last two centuries
Regarding the Question for Malvinas, I’ve provided in previous posts the legal & valid reasons of Argentinian sovereignty rights; they’re based in jurisprudence and past & present international law. These have been once & again dismissed without regards for their validity. There is no place for sentiments or opinions in international law, but its letter, its context, & relation to other laws.
Argentina will no resign its South Atlantic Archipelagos’ sovereignty because legally has:
a. discovery (Spain)
b. possession (Spain & Argentina)
c. consistent sovereignty claims & reclaims to Britain (Spain & Argentina) and,
d. uti possidetis iuris
John Cervantes: I am no activist, nor a man & I made clear I’m not a lawyer. Your selective reading results in a partial understanding of the valid arguments provided. Also, you made the mistake of confusing governments with the Argentine people. The majority of my countrymen want to live in peace, be governed by those that represent the Argentine people, & that have the same dedication, the moral & ethical reasons & principles that guided our founders: Gral San Martin, Gral Belgrano, Mr Domingo Sarmiento etc. just to mention some of them.
I’ve profound respect for all my countrymen & women that fought for the country, as for the real people, those that work, research, study, educate & contribute to make Argentina each day a better place.
I will never apologise for loving my country, & for wanting that it fulfills its destiny to be the great nation I know it can be, & that not long ago was.
Oh good Lord it’s a farce.
Aug 13th, 2023 - 08:12 am - Link - Report abuse +2An Argentine claiming another country doesn’t follow the rules . Wow.
Then the comment that International law doesn’t care about sentiment and opinions, possibly true, followed by the case for Argentina which is ONLY sentiment and opinion.
It is opinion who discovered the islands, most likely Britain, and irrelevant.
It is fact that Spain had a colony on the islands, it is fact that colony withdrew in 1811, and fact it returned to Spain via Montevideo. It is also fact France and Britain had a colony there. It is opinion as to whether the Vernet business was Argentine and fact that Vernet left voluntarily in 1831.
It is false that there have been continuous claims, the fact is almost 100 years of silence.
Inheritance from Spain is an opinion, made weaker due to no population, no clear borders, Spains voluntary withdrawal a decade earlier and dozens of cases where it doesn’t apply.
None of it is more than opinion and sentiment, none of it trumps the islanders rights over 190 years, and none of it excuses the illegal and cowardly invasion of 1982.
Of course the brainwashed cannot see this, in the same way they cannot see that Argentina is a failed state because they cheat and lie.
Leave the islands in peace, and keep your opinions and sentiment to yourself
G&H, i know you are not a man, but you are a political activist even if you do not know, every word you have written comes across as that, you have provided ZERO evidence of any legal claim to the Falklands, what you have done is repeated the same arguments that 3 of your fellow countrymen have been spouting for the last 6 years, every one of them has been disproved with facts, Your founding fathers were rebels who broke away from Spain thousands of miles away from the Falklands, not remotely continental shelf or not near to which is totally irrelevant, and you inherited nothing, not Cuba not Hispaniola not anything and most certainly not the Falklands, nobody cares whether you love your country or not, it has nothing to do with the subject in this site, so now we go back to all your claims, Britain was the first country to claim the islands, not France not Spain and not the United Provinces, go check French and Spanish historical records, through out all the years of issues between Spain France and Britain, the claim was never given up, the UP new this before they sent a military to take the islands by force, they didnt think Britain would react, how wrong they were, despite 2 warnings not to send your military and another one to leave immediately, they ignored it, the two dozen soldiers murdered and raped on the islands and were peacefully evicted, Spain did not even recognise the UP for many years, the civilians that were on the islands were from various countries including some Argentines, all were invited to stay, nearly all of them did and the families of those that stayed still live there to this day, NO usurping what so ever, nothing but a pack of lies fed to you by your Peronist government, including the indoctrination of Children. No inheritance, No Usurping No Argentine settlement, just a pack of lies, on top of that the right to self determination is enshrined by the UN, its over done finished end of story and nothing will change that,
Aug 13th, 2023 - 08:47 am - Link - Report abuse -1TH: I am still in awe at the lack of credibility of your arguments! It is evident you elaborated a fantastic narrative that doesn’t respect any historical or geographical facts. It’s noticeable your frustration as you don’t have reputable sources to support your weak points, same as the other person that answered & that I won’t dignify with a response.
Aug 13th, 2023 - 09:58 am - Link - Report abuse -6If you don’t know how to answer, claim the indoctrination card. If you don’t know Spanish and Hispano-American history, just insert something & pray they will believe it etc etc etc : this is what you do. And when all that fails, just tell them to go away.
The ignorance of historical records is not only blatant, but worrying: just refute it & get angry! One would assume you lot would know your own country’s history, & the history of the country you’ve taken the Malvinas Islands from, so you can add some weight to your opinions, but no, that is not happening.
It is disappointing when one has to repeat the legal concepts, since apparently you decided you don’t want to acknowledge even the most pressing facts, as it is the fact the Islas Malvinas are situated in the Argentina’s continental shelf. Nevertheless, these are facts, and therefore, REAL, and they won’t disappear just because you wish they wouldn’t exist.
None of you will ever tell me what to do, or how to think, that is my prerogative. At least some of us are able to think for themselves, not like some others here…
“At least some of us are able to think for themselves, not like some others here”
Aug 13th, 2023 - 10:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0What a perfect self-portrait
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Christopher Hitchens
Twice Britain offered the ICJ to Argentina G&H twice Argentina rejected it why ?.
Aug 13th, 2023 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse -1because the whole Malvinas myth and fantasy is built on a pack of lies thats why,
your obsession with continental shelves, what has that got to do with anything, France Belgium same continental shelf Uruguay Argentina same continental shelf and so on and so on, it means nothing and irrelevant,
My God it’s even bought back the continental shelf argument, it’s hysterical. In 1833 the Falkland is/was 300 miles off the coast of Patagonia. Patagonia absolutely was not part of Argentina until the Conquest of the Desert ( or more accurately the Genocide of the Desert.
Aug 13th, 2023 - 12:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is how ludicrous its argument is, because we colonised a massive territory through genocide decades after Britain claimed sovereignty, the islands must be ours!
It’s like Germany invading France, massacring every Frenchman and claiming Britain is theirs through proximity.
And then having the absolute affrontery to claim any alternate opinion is invalid,
Of course Argentinas behaviour is akin to the last Germans who invaded France.
So eviction proven false with historic fact
Usurpation proven false with historic fact
Continental shelf argument at best misguided at worst fascist.
Inheritance argument irrelevant opinion.
Frikking hilarious our brainwashed friend hahaha.
The ignorance of historical records ????, it is you who needs to be educated about the true History of the Falklands, not cherry picking certain items, distorting facts and ignoring vast amounts of recorded historical documents. Senora you are a people who conquered and stole the whole of southern Argentina from the indigenous people, as someone above has said , you are very condescending and bring nothing to the debate other than tunnel vision and comedy value.
Aug 13th, 2023 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Again the dishonest Skippy Jessop makes his presence here. (He falsely claims the honorable service of a deceased RAF Airman from the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis.)
Aug 13th, 2023 - 01:48 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Skippy has a remarkable YouTube history, easily accessible - that reveals his scandalous background!
¡Saludos de Chile!
G&H
Aug 13th, 2023 - 03:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0‘we’ve been at a crossroad since 1833. Argentina’s diplomacy consistently protested the British invasion’.
As I have said before, this is simply not true.
Every year from 1833 until 1849 Argentina protested the British occupation of the Islands. Then Following the signing of the Convention of Settlement in 1850, the protests stopped and did not start again until 1941.
Argentina dropped its claim, such as it was, and accepted British possession of the Islands.
This coupled with the British having the prior claim is what makes the British case so overwhelming.
And don’t forget Julio Argentino Roca in your list of ‘founders’, after all he negotiated, agreed and signed the Convention of Settlement.
Not forgetting his words before launching his war of conquest and ethnically cleansing Patagonia and TDF.
‘Our self-respect as a virile people obliges us to put down as soon as possible, by reason or by force, this handful of savages who destroy our wealth and prevent us from definitely occupying, in the name of law, progress and our own security, the richest and most fertile lands of the Republic.’
Also, you still haven’t answered the question where in UNGA resolution 1514 does it say the Falkland Islanders DO NOT have the right to self-determination, as claimed by minister Cafiero???
You never have an answer for the points put to you, you just repeat the same statements without any supporting evidence.
Let’s try again:
‘Where in UNGA resolution 1514 does it say the Falkland Islanders DO NOT have the right to self-determination, as claimed by minister Cafiero???’
So focus here and let’s see if you can answer a simple but important question???
Inconvenient truths of Malvinas (Falkland) #12
Aug 13th, 2023 - 03:49 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Clearly, the arguments I provided & that are supported by legal principles of old and modern international law have hit a nerve.
Few in these posts have provided verifiable data, & its original sources. This is supposed to be a discussion, & II have responded the questions you asked. The rest is plain abuse.
It seems I am condescending! What a nerve to point a finger at me with what it could be said about all of you, including childish. I made a summary of the adjectives and ‘qualities’ that according to you I, my countrymen & my country are/have:
cowards, wasted life, rude & immature, indoctrinated activist spewing nonsense, crazy person, a
bully with an attitude that causes wars and hostility, obsolete & irrelevant, rehashed nonsense
gibberish, blind & liers with a lying ADN, corrupt laughing stock, misplaced arrogance with
unbelievable self-delusion, irrelevant nonsense, immature name calling troll,
nonsensical rubbish, spewing stupid quotes, straight out of a political activists hand-book(?),
most corrupt bankrupt democracy, need to learn about democracy & freedom (?),
Argentine colonialism, expansionism, imperialism, and thievery (this takes the prize), constantly
misrepresents history, unable to be objective, spouting nonsense, misleading & confusion,
pathetic, claiming false evidence, nationalistic clap trap without a brain, deceitful, lying, nutter,
tells fairy tales, nationalistic blindness, a farce, obsessed, myth and fantasy built on a pack of
lies, ludicrous argument, akin with Germany (oh, my, what an insult!), frikking hilarious
brainwashed, fascist, with tunnel vision & comedy value, and some other things I can’t even type
for its rudeness.
When anything else fails, resort to misogynist insult.
Other than a small matter of who first saw the Falklands which is debatable and irrelevant the historic until 1811 is fairly agreed, France were there for a bit, Britain were on West Falkland, Spain on East Falkland, Britain left voluntarily and then Spain left voluntarily.
Aug 13th, 2023 - 03:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Then the Argentine story diverts from historic fact.
The Spanish left the islands in 1811 via Montevideo back to Spain, none fought in the wars of independence for Argentina, none became Argentine, they were Spanish. At the time of Independence the islands were empty. The fact is there were multiple claims but nobody had a working civilian population which was pretty much the agreed method of having confirmed sovereignty.
The islands were pretty much empty for the next 16 years, until the Vernet business. This is indeed a grey area, neither Britain nor Argentina minded Vernet being there, both his deputies were British, and he was clear that either sovereignty claim suited him, at different times he accepted either. However by 1831 the business failed Vernet left voluntarily and again with only 20-30 people on the islands, under first Brisbane and then Dickson both British, it is highly unclear where sovereignty lay.
This is why Argentina sent Mestevier in October 1832 to unequivocally claim the islands, Britain warned Argentina it would expel any attempted colony and it did so after 10 weeks, in all likelihood Pinedo would have arrested the murdering rapists and returned them to Argentina anyway.
Not a single Argentine living on the islands from before October was evicted. There were only a handful amongst the British, Uruguayan, Chileans and other Europeans of the 30 odd civilians on the islands.
So, there you have it, no inheritance, no Argie community, no evictions, no usurpation, 100 years of silence and a made up Peronist fairy tale to brainwash the masses.
All the while the Falkland Islanders have been the most prosperous people in the South Atlantic.
G&H you have not hit any raw nerve, what you have done is made yourself look foolish, you have provided nothing of any substance, and never answered a question put to you, you are the one who started off with your condescending comments that you have all the facts and everybody else is wrong and can not see that, just answer the simple questions that you have been asked, but you cant, you said you was a little girl when the evil junta invaded the Falklands, so all you have ever know are the lies that you have been indoctrinated with since you were a child, if you can stand hearing the facts and real history of the Falklands then leave, its quite simple really, you say we have no verifiable evidence, i say you are lying, you take your evidence to the Hague and the Falklanders will take theirs, see who wins and who gets laughed out of court, why is it so difficult for you to understand that Britain claimed the islands first long before you existed, go search French and Spanish historical records, not the propaganda that you have been fed and stop playing the victim card, you came on this site claiming you are the bog i am who knows everything, when in reality you arguments and evidence are bogus, you are entitled to think what you wish but it does not change anything, i will add another word to your collection. sheer arrogance, hows that for you, as said before your own Politicians know very well that they will never get the Falklands unless the islanders choose so, and with attitudes like you have all you do is drive that wish of yours further and further away, regarding your so called heroic armed forces, i felt sorry for the young conscripts who didnt even want to be there, but heroes they were not, go visit the islands , talk to the civilians who lived through the occupation, learn about your evil officer who wanted to kill all the civilians, learn how after you surrendered how you hero officers had to keep their guns to stop their own men from killing them
Aug 13th, 2023 - 04:17 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Sra. Geography and history rights...
Aug 13th, 2023 - 04:27 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Yupppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp...
You are indeed getting the “Full Monty” welcomeng package from the *BAT'S i here...
* (Brainwashed Anglo Turnip's... ;-)
- I seem to remember that..., just in my first week of comments..., the Anglo laddies of that time called me a ”degeneratet homofobic pedophiliac communist nazi jew miserable racist Argie misogynist faggot & a despicable Argie Daggo..., or so...
Cuckle..., chuckle...
May be if you stopped behaving like a 6 year old and stopped the racist comments against anyone who is not Argentine then you would get better responses, many people me included tried to have serious debates with you in the past but it was impossible, your immature behaviour put an end to that deserve everything you get, 15 years of life wasted,
Aug 13th, 2023 - 04:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Pfffff...
Aug 13th, 2023 - 05:27 pm - Link - Report abuse -2GeoFray - you have still not answered my question.
Aug 13th, 2023 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Argentina claims an inheritance.
Britain, says there was no such inheritance.
Now what?
ps - Argentina presented no formal protest to Britain between 1850 and 1945
Now what..., Copper...?
Aug 13th, 2023 - 11:32 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Now..., Brutain will be forced by reality to abandon its archaic Imperial ways in Malvinas..., the same way it was forced to abandon them haughty Imperial ways in 1947 (Jewel of the Crown,)...,1956 (Suez) or 1997 (Ping Pong)...
Capisce...?
Trunks, who will do the forcing? Reality? Unlikely. Reality is that the British flag flies over the Falklands by the choice of the Islands people. Reality is that Argentina is unable to change that reality. Unless .........
Aug 14th, 2023 - 12:15 am - Link - Report abuse +2Now, again -
Argentina claims an inheritance.
Britain, says there was no such inheritance.
How can this impasse be resolved?
Reality, Copper..., is that short 77 years ago..., the Brutish flag blazed on top of about 2/3 of the World's flagpoles...
Aug 14th, 2023 - 01:17 am - Link - Report abuse -2Reality copper..., is that today..., the Brutish flag is on a corner of them many Tax Haven Islands flags blazing on the flagpoles of Arab sheiks and Russian oligarchs superyachts...
Reality copper..., is that today..., the Brutish flag is painted on the roofs of many a “Bayerische Motoren Werke” Mini Cooper...
Reality copper..., is that today..., a diminutive Brutish flag is sewn to me comfy Clark's Desert Boots made in Thailand...
Capisce...?
“You'll note that Skippy” has never posted ever on this site.
Aug 14th, 2023 - 01:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0”continues to claim” which is an impossibility since he has never posted here.
What the malignant narcissist is attempting to claim is that I was not in the RAF.
Oh, what shame, I get to show you yet again as just another lying bag of shite.
https://imgur.com/a/WDPeU
But what else would you expect from a person who suffers from the same malaise as Donald Trump.
Why Do Narcissists Lie So Much?
September 5, 2020 by Alexander Burgemeester
”… They lie about ... WHAT THEY HAD FOR DINNER.“
Reality Think is that Britain gave up its Empire voluntarily, the first and only country ever to do so. We even tried to give the Falklands to Argentina. The islanders knew better, they didn’t want to be left part of the cesspool of humanity, they didn’t want to be associated with the likes of you…and who can blame them.
Aug 14th, 2023 - 02:02 am - Link - Report abuse +1Just imagine, Britain wanted to gift the Falklands to Argieland not because of the Malvinas myth but despite it, all you needed to do was convince 3000 islanders.
But you couldn’t, because they know Argentina is full of “Thinks”, lying, racist morons who “think” they are much cleverer than they are.
Argentinas response, invade, use them as a human shield, plant minefields around their homes and then complain that they don’t want to talk to you.
The Falklands can only be Argentine when the islanders want it, and they will never want it whilst people like you exist.
Reality, Trunks, is that those that wanted to leave, left. Those that wished and wish to remain British, remain. As real as Argentina's impotence to change the current situation regarding the Falkland Islands. As real as Argentina's irrelevance to the future of the Falkland Islands. As real as your doddery old age.
Aug 14th, 2023 - 03:08 am - Link - Report abuse +1Now, how about that question GeoFraya? Shall I reword it to help you?
This perhaps - If the applicability of a legal theory or law is disputed, how can that be definitively answered?
Inconvenient truths of Malvinas (Falkland) #13
Aug 14th, 2023 - 04:19 am - Link - Report abuse -2John Cervantes: you confuse assertiveness with ‘sheer arrogance’. I didn’t say ‘I know it all’ but ‘this is what I know, & here is how I obtained that information’. My statements were based on official documents, eg historical, geographic, UN resolutions etc cited as the discussion moved from one article to the other. There’s no enough space to enter all the information in a one post, so I respond as soon as I can. I’ll risk been told that I am repeating myself; so, here I go again:
JC: ‘Britain claimed the islands long before you existed’. I beg to differ, & here is why:
1. Historical data
a. The Spanish dominions in America were recognised as:
i. By other maritime powers (including the BE, see Utrecht Treaty articles VIII &XII)
ii. The right of discovery plus 1st occupancy
iii. The Spanish sovereign, peaceful & consistent exercise until 1811
b. Papal bulls: whether agreed or not, this was the way Spain & Portugal divided the American continents between each other, in addition to the
c. Treat of Tordesillas 1494 (bilateral since they’re the only European powers in America til XVIII.
2. Geographic data:
A. 1492: Spanish discovery of America
B. 1520: Pedro Reinel, reknowned cartographer with the Magellian expedition sights the islands, see map: www.malvinas-falklands.net/avada_portfolio/chapter-i/
British source referring to the Magellian expedition:https://www.britannica.com/ biography/Ferdinand-Magellan/Circumnavigation-of-the-globe
C. 1540 map by Sebastian Munster, believed to be Malvinas in the Magellian Strait, so far off from its actual location that the British source calls it ‘guessing’ : https://www.britannica.com/
D. Spanish Malvinas Islands 1670: Reddit - https://www.britannica.com/
I know it’s from reddit, but this was a good HD pic
Roger Lorton, I'll answer you next.
I look forward to it.
Aug 14th, 2023 - 04:47 am - Link - Report abuse +1Your knowledge of history is truly awful.
1) You do know that Spain does not claim discovery of the Falklands?
2) You do know that Popes do not decide international law?
3) You do know that treaties only bind those that sign them.
Pedro Reinel sailed with Magellan? Seriously? Strange then that I can place him in Lisbon from 1519 to 1522 working on a chart with Lopo Homen.
Go learn some history.
https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/simple-list-spanish.pdf
“Doddery”...,copper...?
Aug 14th, 2023 - 08:16 am - Link - Report abuse -1- I can consistently place many ends of six within the red at 40 yards whith me good auld 40 pounder AFB...
Can you...?
Chuckle..., chuckle...
An old man's fantasies.....
Aug 14th, 2023 - 09:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Not certain I could see the red at 40 yards.
Anyway, Happy Falkland Day
A) Reality..., Copper..., and without no spectacles... :-)
Aug 14th, 2023 - 09:53 am - Link - Report abuse -1B) Falklands Day..., laddie...???
- Ya mean today...,14 August ..., when ya Anglos commemorate the “first sighting”??? of the Falkland Islands on that day in 1592 by the English navigator and explorer, John Davis, on board his 120-ton vessel 'Desire'...?
- May I humbly direct ya' haughty Engrish attention to ya' above mentioned Sr. PEDRO REINEL..., FERDINAND MAGELLAN's carthographer and his pretty map from 1522...???
http://www.malvinas-falklands.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Figura-1.jpg
What do ya' Tænk that spot..., almost in the middle of his 1522 map..., some 200 nautical miles from the Magellan Strait is...???
A crumb of Sr. PEDRO REINEL's pastrami sandwich...???
1592 -1522 = 70 Capisce...???
Chuckle..., chuckle...
Inconvenient truths of Malvinas (Falkland) #13 B LINKS CORRECTIONS
Aug 14th, 2023 - 10:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0For some reason, some of the links were converted to a general site. Here they go again:
C. 1540 map by Sebastian Munster, believed to be Malvinas in the Magellian Strait, so far off from its actual location that the British source calls it ‘guessing’ : https://britishempire.co.uk/maproom/falkland/falklands1540map.htm
D. Spanish Malvinas Islands 1670: Reddit -
https://britishempire.co.uk/maproom/falkland/falklands1540map.htm
I know it’s from reddit, but this was a good HD pic
This last SPANISH map is from the 1st British invasion of Malvinas. I believe this is what the British claim as settlement and possession. But that settlement didn’t acquire any rights, since the Spanish had discovery & possession. They exercised their right & protested the irregular situation to the British Crown; the British agreed to withdraw from the Island; this was not respected & the Spanish forces removed them by force in 1774.
The other island was occupied by a French citizen who left after diplomatic arrangements, & since the French acknowledge the Spanish dominion of America.
The Spanish didn't need a 'title' of sovereignty over Malvinas. Their right came from discovery & first sight & possession of the Viceroyalty of the Provinces of the South, its coasts & islands, which is where the South Atlantic Archipelago is located. In addition to this possession, and considering the British invasion and expulsion from Malvinas, the Spanish Crown designated Governors to Malvinas from 1774 to 1811.
Mr Lorton, my knowledge of history is just fine. I am trying to identify the discordant points; in this case, Britain claimed they 'discovered & settled the islands' before the Spanish, or Argentina. Rather than stating that my knowledge of history is wrong, make your point & tell us what the 'right history' is.
Please take the time to check the links for credibility: check the sources. I've tried to include English pages.
Sra. Geography and history rights...
Aug 14th, 2023 - 10:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0MercoPress solo permite postear un link por comentario...
Cualquier link subsiguiente es automáticamente convertido en una copia del primero...
Inconvenient truths of Malvinas (Falkland) #13 B LINKS CORRECTIONS
Aug 14th, 2023 - 11:08 am - Link - Report abuse -1For some reason, some of the links were converted to a general site. Here they go again:
C. 1540 map by Sebastian Munster, believed to be Malvinas in the Magellian Strait, so far off from its actual location that the British source calls it ‘guessing’ : https://britishempire.co.uk/maproom/falkland/falklands1540map.htm
D. Spanish Malvinas Islands 1670: Reddit -
https://britishempire.co.uk/maproom/falkland/falklands1540map.htm
I know it’s from reddit, but this was a good HD pic
This last SPANISH map is from the 1st British invasion of Malvinas. I believe this is what the British claim as settlement and possession. But that settlement didn’t acquire any rights, since the Spanish had discovery & possession. They exercised their right & protested the irregular situation to the British Crown; the British agreed to withdraw from the Island; this was not respected & the Spanish forces removed them by force in 1774.
The other island was occupied by a French citizen who left after diplomatic arrangements, & since the French acknowledge the Spanish dominion of America.
The Spanish didn't need a 'title' of sovereignty over Malvinas. Their right came from discovery & first sight & possession of the Viceroyalty of the Provinces of the South, its coasts & islands, which is where the South Atlantic Archipelago is located. In addition to this possession, and considering the British invasion and expulsion from Malvinas, the Spanish Crown designated Governors to Malvinas from 1774 to 1811.
Mr Lorton, my knowledge of history is just fine. I am trying to identify the discordant points; in this case, Britain claimed they 'discovered & settled the islands' before the Spanish, or Argentina. Rather than stating that my knowledge of history is wrong, make your point & tell us what the 'right history' is.
Please take the time to check the links for credibility: check the sources. I've tried to include English pages.
Trunks.
Aug 14th, 2023 - 11:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0You should read my first Paper.
https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2021/12/1480-to-1762-10.pdf
My comment there states:
“Unsigned, undated and not widely examined, this chart was discovered in 1935 at the
Topkapi Saray Library in Istanbul. In a brief description published in 1938 for the International Geographical Conference, French amateur Marcel Destombes called it the Chart of Magellan. He attributed the map to Pedro Reinel on the basis of a limited handwriting sample. Limited as it did not include any sample of Gomes's script.
Destombes hypothesised that the map had been started in 1519 by a Portuguese cartographer and then updated in 1522, by the same hand. Portuguese cartographer Pedro Reinel and Portuguese pilot Estêvão Gomes were both present in Seville in 1519. Reinel,
however, was not there in 1522. On his return to Spain in 1521, Gomes would have been debriefed at the Casa de Contratacion in Seville and obliged to provide details of all the discoveries during his voyage. This chart clearly shows Brazil as it was known to the Portuguese before 1519. It then reveals the east coast of Patagonia as discovered by Magellan's expedition, up until Gomes's desertion. Nothing on this chart relates to Magellan or Elcano's experiences in crossing the Pacific Ocean. What this map reveals is seemingky
limited to those discoveries known to Gomes, which identifies this chart as antecedent to the return of Elcano in September, 1522.”
Not the Falklands - a mispositioned Tierra del Fuego.
For the record, Pascoe & Pepper believe the chart predates Magellan and is evidence of a Portuguese discovery in 1519.
GeoFraya - you still have not answered the question - If the applicability of a legal theory or law is disputed, how can that be definitively answered?
As for your lack of history:
Britain discovered in 1592.
Claimed in 1594.
Reclaimed in 1765
Settled in 1766
Spain arrived in 1767
Argentina was never in the game.
- “Not the Falklands - a mispositioned Tierra del Fuego.”..., ya' say...???
Aug 14th, 2023 - 01:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Geeeeeeee...., Copper...
That risible fudge explanation of yours...,suddenly makes me previous joke 'bout them Isles on that Map just being crumbs of Sr. PEDRO REINEL's pastrami sandwich..., seem as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...
Chuckle..., chuckle...
Go learn, Trunks
Aug 14th, 2023 - 01:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2021/12/1480-to-1762-10.pdf
As far as the idiotic commentary by Skippy Jessop (“Terence”) I refer the MP readers to his scandalous YouTube history.
Aug 14th, 2023 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse -1The actual RAF Airman who served in the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis has been criminally dishonored.
¡Saludos de Panquehue!
Inconvenient truths of Malvinas (Falkland) #14
Aug 14th, 2023 - 07:49 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Mr Lorton,. I will post some answers to your questions, but please add a response so I can post the 2nd part.
‘Your knowledge of history is truly awful”.
Ok, I only ask you read the sources I post.
1) You do know that Spain does not claim discovery of the Falklands?
A: The Spanish didn't need a 'title' of sovereignty over Malvinas. Their right came from discovery & first sight & possession of the Viceroyalty of the Provinces of the South, its coasts & islands, which is where the South Atlantic Archipelago is located. In addition to this possession, after the 1st British invasion & expulsion from Malvinas, the Spanish Crown designated Governors to Malvinas from 1774 to 1811.
2) You do know that Popes do not decide international law?
A: Not now, but since the XIII to XVI centuries they did decide on international Law. Both treaties & their bulls were the international laws at that time to set disputes.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/bull-papal
https://www.britannica.com/topic/bull-papal
3) You do know that treaties only bind those that sign them.
A: Of course. The Tordesillas treaty proves that Spain & Portugal were the only two European powers in America in the XV & most of the XVI centuries. The1st British colony was established in North America in Virginia -1607. They navigated south c1650-1667. The South American colonies were Spanish, & Portuguese only.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/bull-papal
https://www.britannica.com/topic/bull-papal
Pedro Reinel sailed with Magellan? ,,,
A: Reinel was a collaborator & made the maps of the Magellian expedition, although he wasn't part of the expedition. His map of 1670 clearly shows the Islas Malvinas. Below is an article that refers to this:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/bull-papal
GeoFraya - you decline to answer my question. So I will answer it for you. Questions regarding the application of laws or legal theory can only be answered by a court of law. Without having its claims of inheritance considered and adjudicated by such a court, Argentina's claims of inheritance remain unproven. Without the ICJ, Argentina has no argument.
Aug 14th, 2023 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse -1As for the above.
1. Spain does not claim discovery, because Spain did not discover the archipelago. The rest of your item 1 makes no sense. Spain claimed the region, but that claim was not recognised by any nation other than Portugal. A claim to a whole continent was simply laughable.
2. Popes have never been the source of international law. Tordesillas is proof of this as both Spain and Portugal ignored the Bulls and came to their own arrangment. The Pope was sufficiently annoyed, not to recognise the Treaty of Tordesillas for 12 years.
3. Treaties only bind those that sign them. It is clear enough. The arrangements between Spain and Portuagal affected no other nation and could be ignored. This was made quite plain by both the French and the British monarchs.
Pedro Reinel was alive in 1520. He must have been getting rather old if he produced a chart in 1670.
The definitive chart that came out of Magellan's expedition is that by Vespucci's nephew drawn up at Seville in 1523. Juan Vespucci had the advantage of the evidence received from Gomez (who worked alongside him in 1823) and the Elcano survivors. All of who had been interviewed during two inquiries into Magellan's expedition. He also had inherited his uncle's papers. The chart he produced speaks for itself. The relevant detail from it is here -
https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/1523-vespucci-detail.jpg
As I said, your knowledge of history is limited. I have been doing this for 14 years child. I suggest that you read me.
Game set and match Rog, alive in 1520 and produced a map a chart in 1670, must have had an awful lot of wrinkles, lol.
Aug 14th, 2023 - 08:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Inconvenient truths of Malvinas (Falkland) #15
Aug 14th, 2023 - 08:50 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Hilarious! I would have expected you gentlemen knew that Reinel died in 1540. His exceptional map of South America, that shows Malvinas in its right location WAS PUBLISHED in 1670. Nothing wrong with its validity, they didn’t have internet back then!
The fist ever map of Malvinas was made by pilot Andres de San Martin c 1520, who was part of the Magellian expedition.
http://www.malvinas-falklands.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Figura-2.jpg
If the applicability of a legal theory or law is disputed, how can that be definitively answered?
A: The first option should be diplomacy. As this has failed to produced results, the dispute should be resolved by the International Court of Justice.
As for your lack of history:
Britain discovered in 1592.
A: not according to early maps of c 1520 (San Martin) & the Reinel map.
Claimed in 1594
A: again see chronography of British settlements according to two reputable English sources as:
British library: http://www.malvinas-falklands.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Figura-2.jpg
Encyclopedia Britannica: http://www.malvinas-falklands.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Figura-2.jpg
PLEASE MAKE A COMMENT SO I CAN POST PART B
Vespuccies full 1523 chart can be found here -
Aug 14th, 2023 - 08:54 pm - Link - Report abuse -1https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/1523-geocarta-nautica-universale-attributed-to-giovanni-juan-vespucci-spain.jpg
Something GeoFraya has yet to learn, is that MercoPress only allows one link.
By the way, Skippy does need to apologize for his lack of respect to RAF servicemen.
Aug 14th, 2023 - 08:54 pm - Link - Report abuse -2I refer to the YouTube video posted six years ago that I still find entertaining:
https://youtu.be/LBBrSSyp7_M
Meanwhile we're enjoying a beautiful afternoon while savoring a marvelous good wine.
¡Saludos!
Geofraya - your ignorance is boring. There is no 1520 map. San Martin did not survive Magellan's expedition. The chart you have in mind was drawn by a mad french Geographer - Thevet - in 1586.
Aug 14th, 2023 - 09:01 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Now, show me the Pedro Reinel chart that was not published until 1670.
My collection of Charts can be found here, in case it helps
https://falklandstimeline.wordpress.com/charts/
Malvinas truths # 16
Aug 14th, 2023 - 10:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Boring is ok, as long as the data is from reputable sources. I checked all the links from my previous post & they work just fine.
Map of Pedro Reinel c1520, published in 1670
http://www.malvinas-falklands.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Figura-1.jpg
http://www.malvinas-falklands.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Figura-1.jpg
Reclaimed in 1765
A: as the Malvinas Islands were discovered by the Spanish (even Pascoe & Pepper acknowledge this) they can’t be ‘re-claimed’. Also, you are forgetting that Portuguese sailors were acting on behalf of the Spanish Crown that paid for their expeditions. Therefore, the lands discovered when acting on behalf of the Spanish Crown belong to the latter.
Settled in 1766: yes, although this settlement was illegal, as the Spanish had discovery, & possession (of the South American continent, including the Atlantic South, its land, coasts & islands). Also this settlement didnt create possession neither, because of Spanish discovery & possession, AND the settlement was interrupted by diplomatic protests to the British Crown, & by force in 1774-1776.
There are also other rules that were broken by the British with their 1st invasion of Malvinas:
1. They act was illegal because it was done in a time of peace, with no warning.
2. Spain had sovereignty & possession, therefore Malvinas Islands weren’t ‘terra nulis’
3. The settlement cant be considered possession because it was the result of an illegal act
4. The settlement was rejected by the Spanish Crown both by diplomacy & by force
Spain arrived in 1767
A: see response above
Argentina was never in the game
A: She was always in the game. First during the colony via the Spanish sovereignty exercise, then by ‘uti possidetins uri’ exercising sovereignty as custodian, & settlement & possession until its citizens & representatives were forcefully removed by the 2nd invasion of Malvinas by the BE.
Hahaha
Aug 14th, 2023 - 10:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Published 1670? Wasn't discovered until 1935.
I now realise that you are making this up as you go along.
The Hazine Map no.1825 in Istanbul makes a number of errors, most notably that it places the Tropic of Cancer in the wrong hemisphere. This it places Tierra del Fuego in the wrong position is hardly an error at all compared.
No, Pascoe & Pepper say that the Falklands were discovered by a Portuguese expedition before 1519. The Portuguese sent out there own expeditions. Magellan was an exception as he had offended Portugals king. Once again, your lack of knowledge is glaring.
In any case, bare discovery only provides an incohate title (look it up) which cannot stand in the face of occupation. Spain did arrive in 1767. Too late.
Now enough. You waste my time with your ignorance. Come back when you have read more.
https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2022/08/bibliography.pdf
FIN
Oh dear oh dear
Aug 15th, 2023 - 05:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Columbus discovered the Americas therefore every square mile in the Americas is Spanish because the Pope says so.
Except of course Columbia didn’t discover the americas, the Vikings were there 500 years earlier, and of course the ethnic Americans 30000 years earlier.
So, Las Malvinas are Icelandic because Olaf the Brave decreed it in 874?
Talk about a nonsense argument.
Spain left the islands voluntarily in1811 and de facto relinquished any claim. Britain re-established its claim in 1833. Argentina irrelevant as they could not inherit something already relinquished and failed to put a population on the islands.
Roger, do we have a copy of the decree of Olaf the Brave when he landed in Greenland claiming all the Americas for Scandinavia….if not make one up. Then we can put both American continents under the sovereignty of Norway against the will of a billion people.
Utterly ludicrous.
I shall look into it, Mr. Magic
Aug 15th, 2023 - 05:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0TWIMC
Aug 15th, 2023 - 05:51 am - Link - Report abuse -1What Roger, won't need to look into..., because we already have them..., are the copies of the many hundreds of Engrish Royal Letter Patents...: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_patent_(United_Kingdom)
signed by many a Engrish King..., when any Brutish subject landed anywhere..., claiming everything for the Engrish Empire..., thus putting ~ 2/3 of the World under the sovereignty of Brutain..., against the will of about a billion people....
Utterly Brutish & Ludicrous..., indeed...
Capisce...?
Inconvenient Malvinas truths # 17
Aug 15th, 2023 - 06:05 am - Link - Report abuse -1Roger Lorton, great sense of humour! One would understand your historical perspective if it would be based on authoritative sources. It’s evident your years of research are based NOT on the ORIGINAL Reinel source, but on a map you found on a Turkish library, made by a sailor that used 2nd, 3rd & 4th accounts as sources. That is the map discovered in 1925, no 1935, that you are citing.
I am talking about the REAL, ORIGINAL EUROPEAN CARTOGRAPHY (check again links to REAL & VERIFIABLE maps which provenance can be traced).
So, spare us your celebration. People can distinguish between a primary source, and a source like yours, a map where all the European expeditions discoveries were thrown into a fantastic creation. Of course, your map is plagued of errors.
Magellian, a Portuguese born sailor, was designated as a Spanish Admiral in 1518. The rest is history: his expedition along the South American coast, with San Martin as a pilot, who was the one that drew the 1st Malvinas Islands map c 1520. They’re acting on Castilian Crown behalf; their sovereignty over America’s lands started in 1494, and the sighting & expedition of the Atlantic South was a further sovereignty assertion. You dismiss these historical facts as irrelevant because they don’t support your narrative.
The claims that the Spanish were late at Malvinas, is it another of your jokes? If not, your understanding & utilization (or lack of) international law of that time is null. Zero.
IF:
1. the obscure, third hand account of Spanish expeditions copied in a new map with dubious cartographic value.
2. the argument that the Spanish were late to Malvinas (?), to justify and invasion of a sovereign land, in a time of peace, without warning, & done in contradiction to the international law of that time,
3. are the base upon which the British are building their claims to Malvinas,
then I am happy: if this get to the ICJ, they’re definitely in trouble.
But Olaf the great has a letter from Odin undersigned by Thor.
Aug 15th, 2023 - 07:01 am - Link - Report abuse +1Oh dear Stink, and those billion people today in 2023 free to decide their own future…something you would deny the islanders.
Well done for urinating over your own French fries.
Utter nonsense, old man. 'twas never more than 25% and then never all at the same time.
Aug 15th, 2023 - 07:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0What!
“ It’s evident your years of research are based NOT on the ORIGINAL Reinel source, but on a map you found on a Turkish library, made by a sailor that used 2nd, 3rd & 4th accounts as sources. That is the map discovered in 1925, no 1935, that you are citing.”
Beware this one old man ...... nutty as your average fruit cake. Probably, nuttier.
Laddie...
Aug 15th, 2023 - 07:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0Haven't you yet learned that for us men..., almost all females are nutty...?
Haven't you yet learned that for them women..., almost all males are nutty...?
But what divine nutty cakes can we bake together..., when our nuttyness concur in time & space...
A map I found in a Turkish library?
Aug 15th, 2023 - 07:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0There's nutty, Trunks, and then there's way out left field
Tell me lad...
Aug 15th, 2023 - 08:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Where did you acquire that “Lass Nuttynometer” of yours..?
Or are ya' talking from ya' own dearly bought personal experience...?
Mr Lorton, I have seen your collection of charts and European cartography, which is impressive. My comment in my previous post does not refer to your collection, but only to the Turkish map based on second and tertiary etc accounts of European explorers & its accuracy, & I referred to it as it seems was influenced by the Reinel map that we were discussing. This has nothing to do with my appreciation for your knowledge & the work you’ve done collecting maps over the years, and from all over the world. Unless I am mistaken, you mentioned that map was discovered in Topkapi Library in Turkey in 1935-25, and so I referred to it.
Aug 15th, 2023 - 09:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0It seems I have broken an un-named thread etiquette, and if so, I apologise; although I believe I have been respectful and proper in all my posts, and don’t deserve some expletives I was given.
GeoFray, you are confused.
Aug 15th, 2023 - 11:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Reinel map, as you call it, is listed at the Topaki Palace Library in Istanbul as Hazine no.1825. It is the only known copy. Whether or not Reinel (Pedro/Jorge, or both) had a hand in its creation is moot at best, as both were only in Seville for a short time in 1519 before they returned to Lisbon to work on the Miller Atlas.
The chart lay, unknown, in Istanbul until 1935 when it was shown by the Museum's curator to a French amateur historian with an interest in cartographical instruments - Marcel Destomes. Destomes published a paper on the chart in 1938. The chart itself contains no details as to its origin, date or authorship. Destomes, however, named it Magellan's Chart, dated it at 1522/23 and attributed it to Pedro Reinel. All of which was unsupported by any sound evidence. That said, there are some features in the chart which may link it to one of the Reinels. In particular, the map has the tropic of Cancer in the wrong hemisphere. A feature of the Miller Atlas which we know was created by the two Reinels together with Lopo Homem in Lisbon - also in 1519 (which rather puts the two Reinels in two places at once). Destomes claimed that he had compared handwriting samples to conclude that Pedro Reinel was the cartographer. However, he had no samples from Estêvão Gomes. The map appears to have been drafted and then added to later. Destomes asserted, again with little evidence, that the original was completed for Magellan in 1519 and updated in 1522. Both Reinels were in Lisbon in 1522. But Gomez was at Seville.
My conclusion is that there is some evidence of a link with the Reinels, but there is no certainty that the map was produced at Seville. If it was, it was most likely, IMHO, updated by Gomes who had seen the north shore of Tierra del Fuego.
All this before the Elcano survivors returned to Spain.
Again, IMO the Vespucci map of 1523 is the better as he had full access to both the Gomes deserters & the Elcano survivors.
G&H you came on here all guns blazing, at least now you can see that and have calmed down, apology accepted,
Aug 15th, 2023 - 04:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -3“By the way, Skippy does need to apologize for his lack of respect to RAF servicemen.“
Aug 15th, 2023 - 06:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Why he`s never posted here, but my sevice record is here. Oh, what shame, I get to show you yet again as just another lying bag of shite.
https://imgur.com/a/WDPeU
But what else would you expect from a person who suffers from the same malaise as Donald Trump.
“An assertion is a statement offered as a conclusion without supporting evidence. Since an argument is defined as a logical relationship between premise and conclusion, a simple assertion is not an argument.”
Ignoring the Burden of Proof http ://learn.lexiconic.net/fallacies/index.htm
Yet again Skippy tries to claim false valour of a deceased RAF airman who served during the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis.
Aug 15th, 2023 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -2His actual identity is a middle-aged fraud living in Utah, USA.
Skippy has a remarkable YouTube history, easily accessible as “Skippy the virgin” which he tries to hide.
Meanwhile, Madame and I are enjoying the visit of our youngest grandchild's to the farm.
¡Saludos de Panquehue!
Skippy was never here, and you are not all here.
Aug 16th, 2023 - 09:37 am - Link - Report abuse -2Since your muse has never visited this site, and you are the only one speaking for him, The reliability of your claim is self-explanitary.
“Sociopaths lack decency, compassion, and care for anyone other than themselves. They may have a physical body, but they do not have a Soul. When one enters our life, we have a chance to learn and grow spiritually. They are all Pathological Liars, selfish, hateful, and cruel
Sociopaths and Narcissisit lie about eveything. They will lie just to lie..
Even when there is no reason to lie, and the truth would be in their best interest, they will still lie. They don't care who they lie to, and what they lie about. There is no rhyme or reason behind the lies they tell.
Cluster B Personality Disorders - are the most dangerous of disordered individuals. The most dangerous of the cluster B's is the Sociopath (Anti-social personality) and the Narcissist.
The sociopath is by far the most dangerous because there is no functioning conscience. There is no moral compass. Yet the sociopath does know the difference between right and wrong, they just prefer to do what's wrong.
All of the cluster B's are often deeply insecure. It is this insecurity that drives them to act in such horrific ways. Although the the sociopath and the narcissist display arrogance and a confident demeanor - it is just another lie that they are living and acting out. They ENVY everyone. They are jealous individuals. It is their sense of entitlement, that makes them act as if they are “owed” or “entitled” to whatever it is they desire.
https://characterassassinator-ruinyou.blogspot.com/
Nevertheless his long nonsense rant proves nothing, except his mendacity.
Aug 16th, 2023 - 10:25 am - Link - Report abuse -3You'll note that Skippy sidesteps his reality, as he continues to claim false valour of a departed RAF serviceman.
His actual life he hides from the public, paints an entire completely different picture:
https://youtu.be/LBBrSSyp7_M
His pathetic denial is amusing, although sad...
My proof or your mere opininion, no contest.
Aug 16th, 2023 - 10:49 am - Link - Report abuse -1https://imgur.com/a/WDPeU
Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a pattern of self-centered and egotistical behavior that is destructive to others. … This egotistical behavior goes much further, they put their own needs before others and they tend to not only step on people that get in their way but actually go out of their way to crush/ruin/hurt them. At this time their is no cure for NPD and most people affected by this are not self aware to get help. They have no interest in changing and therefore they rarely seek counseling.
• Pathological liars
• Pretend they always victim
• Self Grandiosity
• Actors in different roles
• Poor Financial Management
• Destructive Behavior
The disorder begins by early adulthood and is indicated by at least five of the following:
19. An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
20. Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
21. Believes he/she is “special” and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
22. Requires excessive admiration
23. Has a sense of entitlement
24. Selfishly takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends
25. Lacks empathy
26. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him
27. Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes
https ://narcissistabusesupport.com/dsm-iv-diagnosed-narcissist-personality-disorder/
My goodness...
Aug 16th, 2023 - 12:55 pm - Link - Report abuse -3... Skippy certainly is full of ...
I just returned of a pleasant morning walk and now enjoying marvelous late breakfast - including waffles with strawberries.
Later this week, we plan to return to Valle Nevado to finish the ski season.
Life is truly wonderful!
¡Saludos de Panquehue!
“Skippy certainly is full of ...”
Aug 16th, 2023 - 07:37 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Since he has never posted here, on your say so?
Why Do Narcissists Lie So Much?
September 5, 2020 by Alexander Burgemeester
”… They lie about ... WHAT THEY HAD FOR DINNER.“
“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” ― Socrates
https ://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/275648.Socrates
“It means that when they're out of ammo, losers who can't let go resort to defaming the person or people who made the winning argument. Defamation is when you deliberately make up damaging lies about someone and tell them in public.”
6 Toxic Arguing Techniques Used by Narcissists and Manipulators
1. Arguing in bad faith
2. Fallacies, nonsense, word salad
3. Provoking, bullying, intimidating
4. Lying, denying, changing definitions
5. Deflecting, attacking, projecting
6. Involving others and acting out revenge fantasies
https://blogs.psychcentral.com/psychology-self/2018/08/narcissist-arguing/
It's really disgusting that Skippy continues to pretend he's “Terence”, while most of the MP readership know he's is a middle-aged
Aug 16th, 2023 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse -3fraud; residing in Utah.
Currently we are enjoying a delicious apple and honey Tart Tartan with vanilla sorbet.
¡Saludos de Panquehue!
”It's really disgusting that Skippy continues to pretend he's “Terence”
Aug 16th, 2023 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse -3“An assertion is a statement offered as a conclusion without supporting evidence. Since an argument is defined as a logical relationship between premise and conclusion, a simple assertion is not an argument.”
Ignoring the Burden of Proof http ://learn.lexiconic.net/fallacies/index.htm
No proof, no truth.
Narcissist Warning Signs
To a narcissist, everything is a game, and to win at the game, they must make themselves appear as both the victim and the hero. You will become the true victim of conspiracies that will escalate into false allegations that include everything they themselves have been doing all along – projection is a common action of a narcissist; these accusations will be executed with a jarring lack of empathy.
According to the DSM-5, a person can be professionally diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder by having at least five of the following characteristics:
• a grandiose sense of self-importance (i.e., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
• the belief that they are “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
requires excessive admiration
• a sense of entitlement (i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with their expectations)
interpersonally exploitative tendencies (i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve their own ends)
• lacks empathy – unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
envious of others or believes that others are envious of them
• displays arrogant or haughty behaviors and attitudes
https://narcissistabusesupport.com/common-traits-narcissist/
I assume everyone has become tired of this boring debate - so I end this reminding everyone that the fraud has a remarkable YouTube history, easily accessible as “Skippy the virgin” which he tries to hide.
Aug 16th, 2023 - 11:06 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Again my sincere apologies to the MP readership, but I despise the idiot claiming he's in his mid-80s.
* * *
By the way - today was absolutely marvelous as we enjoyed our daughter and youngest grandchild's visit to the farm.
Pleasant company, good cheese with fresh bread and excellent wine - really makes our evening perfect!
¡Saludos de Panquehue!
“YouTube history, easily accessible as “Skippy the virgin” which he tries to hide.”
Aug 16th, 2023 - 11:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -3If he freely posts on his own website, then he can`t be trying to hide. Apparently he successfully attracts weirdos like you.
So its no debate moron.
Why Do Narcissists Lie So Much?
September 5, 2020 by Alexander Burgemeester
”… They lie about ... WHAT THEY HAD FOR DINNER.“
My proof or your mere assertion, no contest.
https://imgur.com/a/WDPeU
Inconvenient Malvinas truths # 18
Aug 17th, 2023 - 01:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hello gentlemen, thank you for the advice on posting links here; you won’t have any issues if you do a right click and select ‘paste as plain text’. That’s how I could paste different links in 1 post.
John Cervantes, don’t thank me, as my apology was only to Mr Lorton, & only for the Hazine map misunderstanding.
Mr Lorton, I agree with you regarding the Hazine map: this was also my point re: mistakes, although Reis kept the Malvinas Islands in its right spot IMHO. Thank you for taking the time to answer, you gave me some food for thought, as cartography is not my forte.
Some South American & Argentinean history:
on 17th August we honor one of the Fathers of our Nation, General Jose de San Martin, a ‘great military commander, who liberated half of the continent from the Spanish (although he fought against the French Prince that inherited the Spanish Crown as a result of the Utrecht Treaty & the wars of successions).
Gral San Martin died on 17/08/1850.
In 1812, Gral San Martin created the’ Regimiento de Granaderos a Caballo’ (Mounted Grenadiers Regiment) which was disbanded in 1826, just to be reorganised in 1903. They’ve served for more than a century as ‘presidential escort, protocol & security’ roles.
To this day, the ‘Mausoleum of Gral San Martin’, located in the Buenos Aires Metropolitan Cathedral, is guarded by two ‘Granaderos’ soldiers around the clock.
In 1813, Gral San Martin fought with his Granaderos troops at the San Lorenzo battle, where he fell from his horse, and was saved by Granaderos Juan Bautista Baigorria and Juan Bautista Cabral. Both soldiers died in this battle. Cabral was an Argentinean soldier from African ancestry; he was only 23yo when he saved the great Gral, and was immortalized by his heroism, same as soldier Baigorria and the Granaderos in the ‘San Lorenzo’ march, monuments, and in Argentina’s memory & history.
Geofraya. if it was Reinel, he put Tierra del Fuego in the wrong place.
Aug 17th, 2023 - 04:28 am - Link - Report abuse +1Hi Mr Lorton,
Aug 17th, 2023 - 07:03 am - Link - Report abuse -1yes, I realize that if this was the original map, he made that mistake. I compared it with other Reinel's maps, and the Hazine one looks of a different style, even the colours are different, don't you think? If that is the case, the Hazine map may have had some 'lost in translation' mistake. The one thing that is fascinating in this Hazine map is the curvature of the map; I may be mistaken, but I haven't seen many maps of that era drawn with an understanding of the world sphere shape.
Cheers!
Which other Reinel maps have you seen GeoFraya?
Aug 17th, 2023 - 08:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Hazine 1825 could have easily been drawn up by Visconte Maggiola of Naples who used a similra style for Brazil in his Italian chart of ..... 1519.
https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/1519-map-by-maiollo.png
Do not bullshit me girl, ..... I know more than you do.
That's no way to talk to a lady..., Bobby...!
Aug 17th, 2023 - 10:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Try to behave as a respectable man... :-)
http://bp0.blogger.com/_Kyj6MaNLbVE/SAvMxNdPF3I/AAAAAAAAEBA/yXFujBvYlcA/s1600-h/DSC00481.JPG
Capisce...?
Hello Taenk :-)
Aug 17th, 2023 - 10:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0Mr Lorton, the ones I am referring to are in Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Reinel
You'll see the style is completely different from the Hazine map. There is a Brazil map as well in the same page, but apparently it was made in collaboration with Lopo Homem, and other people. This is a HD link to the Brazil map, which is called apparently 'The Miller Map', note how the style changes again due to the collaboration:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Reinel
On a different author, I found an Atlas of the Magellian circumnavegation of the world from the Portolan Atlas by Battista Agnese c 1544 that is a bit naive, but the Malvinas Islands can be seen clearly with other extra islands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Reinel
Take a look, gentlemen, and tell me what you see.
You do not learn GeoFray.
Aug 17th, 2023 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +2If nothing else, you have not learned that MercoPress only allows one link.
So let us go back to the beginning.
1. Spain does not claim discovery.
2. Argentina is not Spain.
3. There was no inheritance.
4. If Argentina has an argument, it should go to the ICJ. There is not anywhere else left.
FIN
I am frustrated. I have inserted three links in some posts before, but it didn't work the last time!
Aug 17th, 2023 - 02:57 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Also, I can submit another post, until another post from another reader is made.
The map I was telling you about is the 1544 Battista Agnese worldmap of the Magellan's circumnavigations:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1544_Battista_Agnese_Worldmap.jpg
The location of the Malvinas Islands is spot on, only there are a few islands.
check it out!
Mr Lorton, I agree to disagree with your points 1 to 3. The uti possidetis iuri is an international law principle that you are aware the ICJ used on sovereignty disputes before.
The principle refers to the right of former colonies to maintain the integrity of their territories as they were when they were a colony: such is the case of Argentina. Argentina's territory extends within the former Viceroyalty of the Provinces of the South, & it wouldn't' exist if Spain wouldn't have conquered these lands.
The only point we agree on is that Argentina should go the ICJ.
It is FIN for me too. Cheers.
Those are the Sansom Islands, not the Falkland Islands. The Sansons also appear on the Hazine no.1825 as red dots.
Aug 17th, 2023 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +1See pages 26 & 27 - https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2021/12/1480-to-1762-10.pdf
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