MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Timerman will categorically reject oil exploration activities in the Falklands
Newly appointed Argentine Foreign Affairs Minister Héctor Timerman said on arrival in New York that on Thursday he will strongly argue in support of ‘Argentine sovereignty rights over the Falklands/Malvinas Islands’ before the United Nations Decolonization Committee or C24. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesI believe that, in time, the Malvinas Islands will be returned to Argentina
Jun 24th, 2010 - 06:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sedimentology wont take that long to connect the Falklands to Argentina
“the categorical rejection of the unilateral and illegal activities of hydrocarbon exploration and exploitation in the Malvinas area.”
Jun 24th, 2010 - 06:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0Nothing illegal about it, the FIG has authorised this. If it was illegal then the argentine navy would have booted out the rig, Only thing illegal is the argentine attempts to blockade the islanders.
“Every year since 1965, the UN General Assembly first and the Special Committee on Decolonization later have urged Argentina and Great Britain to begin negotiations on the islands' sovereignty”
There was negociations, until the Junta attacked the Falklands, and as such, lost all claims to the islands. Well i say lost, they never had any legal/Historical/Factual claims in the first place.
I wonder if the Argentine delegation will remain for the whole meeting this time, or will they walk away when the Falklands delegation speaks.
The policy now appears to be “the more we make a fuss and express our determination the more compelling our claim will become”
Jun 24th, 2010 - 08:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0A sensible policy for a greater Argentina.
If it is illegal then the only bod that can actually confirm this is the ICJ.
Jun 24th, 2010 - 08:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina appears to refuse taking their issue to this body. Are they afraid to have their arguments put under legal scrutiny?
It is also interesting that you can “reject” something that is actually happening. Fingers in ears appears to be their ongoing strategy. Meanwile their economy continues to struggle but could benefit from a collaboration on the Hydrocarbon industry in the Islands; but wait, they tore up that agreement as only a toddler throwing a tantrum does.
“You turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”
Carry on shooting yourself in the foot and cutting off your nose to spite your face. It is rather ammusing and makes Argentina the laughing stock of the G20.
Election in 2011 anyone?
Now that's interesting. I made an entry earlier in which I included a question about this newspaper and suggested it was connected with the Buenos Aires Herald as it used almost the same wording on this article as they had a few hours earlier.
Jun 24th, 2010 - 08:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0My entry has gone ... totally and the rest renumbered .... hmmm?
(5) Hoyt
Jun 24th, 2010 - 09:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0You mean the one about not fancying us to tango? ;-)
Well, that’s what happens when you use Democracy in vindication of a Squidocracy, disregarding the judgments of Meritocracy, utilizing arguments of Murdochcracy which aims at Mediocracy.
Think about it.
I recalled your comments from before ... no telephone number, no address, no obvious personnel or journalists ...... supposed to be 'independent' but then again, are any of us?
Jun 24th, 2010 - 09:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0They must be sensitive methinks :-)
Your entry was no Pulitzer winner anyhow.
Jun 24th, 2010 - 10:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0Gotta love Argentinian politicians, How can you reject something you have no power over? lmao.
Jun 24th, 2010 - 10:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hey, the 'Tango' aphorism wasn't so bad !
Jun 24th, 2010 - 11:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0What a surprise!
Jun 24th, 2010 - 01:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Statements of Arg Govt Officials become more and more hypcritical and two faced every day! Following the UN recommendation from 1965 -Who broke sovereignty negotiations by a military invasion in 1982.
Jun 24th, 2010 - 02:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who since then has insisted that the only result of any future discussion can only be full total Argentine Colonial takeover of the Islanders and their homes?
Hydrocarbons exploration - Who tore up the international bilateral agreement in 2007 and refused to carry on discussions?
WHO always “misquotes” statements by 3rd parties to distort them away from the actual facts and slant them instead in Arg favour?
It would be more accurate if the world,s media instead of saying“Argentine Govt Spokesperson says--------” reworded things to“Ar**hole spopesperson says ---------”
(12) Islander
Jun 24th, 2010 - 04:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0More hypocritical and two faced every day, you say ?
Stop whining and get real.
Heard this one yesterday in the pub...... anyone knows how it continues?
“A Small price to pay” or....... “Smile all the way to the Bank”.
Nicknamed “Kelpers” by the Brits since the beginning of (Stanley) time.
Islanders considered it to be derogatory. The word was discouraged by the Military authority.
Nicknamed “Bennies” by the Brits because of the woolen hats commonly worn by the islanders. (Crossroads anybody?)
Islanders considered it to be deprecatory. The word was disapproved by the Military authority.
Nicknamed “Stills” by the Brits as in “ “Still” a B***** Bennie”.
Islanders considered it to be disparaging. The word was disheartened by the Military authority.
Nicknamed “Andys” by the Brits as in “And thy” are still Bennies.
Islanders considered it to be detractive. The word was discontinued by the Military authority.
Nicknamed .....................
I suggest that Argentines are caught in the “tough guy” syndrome. They have spent so long shouting about their right to annex the Falkland Islands that they cannot figure out how to stop. Of course, they could just stop, but then one of their prime engines for whipping up nationalist fervour would be lost.
Jun 24th, 2010 - 04:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They do not understand that truly strong mature democracies can actually say, “OK, we were wrong.” OR “We're going to drop this from now on.” This gains more respect, but you have to be grown up to do it.
Argentines don't realise that constantly harping on about this matter and disregarding the wishes of the Falkland Islanders simply make them look like the neighbourhood bullies.
The argies dont do too bad on the name calling front
Jun 24th, 2010 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Argentina
harrier, do not make me laugh. You , a british calling us colonial imperialist? . Does your queen write the books from you? . Read your own history, British Empire sail around the World stealing land, national treasures, enslaving millions of africans, starving millions of Irish to death, commiting atrocities like India,and in so many other nations expelling habitants like Malvinas and Chagos Islands, creating wars like Irak , based on a big lie (no WMD),and of course British Petroleum getting great deals there, with the blood of so many innocents civilians.
Jun 24th, 2010 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0British Empire sail around the World stealing land, national treasures,
Jun 24th, 2010 - 07:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Like the Spanish?
starving millions of Irish to death
So you blame the Brits for potato blight,
commiting atrocities like India
Building railways too
expelling habitants like Malvinas
you mean the argie army in 1982
The Englishmen have but of 500 years sowing and fomenting the racism and they never apologized. To read but to see link:
Jun 24th, 2010 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_Kingdom
“Who is free of sin that he/she throws the first stone”
racism is less of an issue today, and any reports of racial abuse and/or discrimination are dealt with more seriously by British authorities. For many decades now the British Government has advocated racial equality in all areas of UK society and abroad.
Jun 24th, 2010 - 07:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And modern day Argentina?
Excuse my bad translation but it is very important to read this note in daily Trumpet of 24-06-2010 on the position Argentina supported by the ambassador from Chile::
Jun 24th, 2010 - 07:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Another resolution without dissidences urges to the Together Kingdom to renew the dialogue.
The Committee of Descolonización of the United Nations approved a new resolution unanimously in which urges to the governments from the Argentina and the Together Kingdom to secure the dialogue process and to renew the negotiations to find a peaceful solution to the question of the sovereignty of the Islas Malvinas.
The declaration project was sponsored by the ambassador from Chile, Octavio Errázuris, and supported by Venezuela, Uruguay, Bolivia, Cuba, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Mexico and Brazil that qualified to the unsatisfied one Argentinean for Malvinas like a deep wound in the continent and a colonial hindrance that it offends the Argentina and the whole Latin America.”
Before, chancellor Héctor Timerman had reiterated the demand on the rights sovereign irrenunciables and imprescriptible of the Argentina on the Islas Malvinas and it had thrown hard accusations against Great Britain, to which accused of having a speech of warlike court and of causing an environmental threat with the oil explorations that it authorized unilaterally
(15) (17) (19) Sticky
Jun 24th, 2010 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Didn’t you read the title of my short story (13)?
“A Small price to pay” or....... “Smile all the way to the Bank”.
It’s the Islanders laughing at the soldiers ”all the way to the bank.”
The soldiers call them names....... and so what? They make the squid-money.
Their going joke at the pubs is building a monument to freaking Gral. Galtieri!
And now with the oil.............
Well....
Happy times.......
What he is really saying is that:
Jun 24th, 2010 - 07:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“We reject the hydro carbon exploration because we are diverting world attention from the fact that we scored a superb own goal in 2007 by ripping up a perfectly good agreement for short term political gain and the assumption that based upon 1998 drilling campaigns there was in fact no oil, and know we are cross because we can't get our grubby hands on the stuff”
Their going joke at the pubs is building a monument to freaking Gral. Galtieri!
Jun 24th, 2010 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I dont blame them,it was that idiot that made sure you Argies would never get the Falklands
Raul
Jun 24th, 2010 - 08:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'll excuse your translation. A couple of points you could try bringing your attention to:
1. The “Together Kingdom” is actually the “United Kingdom”, although we are more “together” than you are.
2. This is a repeat of previous draft resolutions that get approved every time the subject of the Falkland Islands comes up in C24. Means nothing. Although you should note that every member that supported it comes from where? South America. Please count how many members of the Committee represent South American countries.
(23) Stiky
Jun 24th, 2010 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hmmmm.....
Nice British logic...
Let's build a monument to freaking Adolf H. on Trafalgar Square then...
It was that idiot that made sure that Germans would never get Britain
You are funny :-)
It was that idiot that made sure that Germans would never get Britain
Jun 24th, 2010 - 08:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It might have had something to do with the Russians
How about this one
A Jewish man has just won the lottery and invites his family to adinner. He then stands up to thank everyone. “First I must thank my beautiful wife for her help and support, thenI want to thank my children, and the lottery commission.” “Then I would like to thank Adolf Hitler”. Suddenly everyone wassilent as he showed some numbers tatooed on his forearm and said,”For the winning numbers
Think, We do indeed live in reality - sadly the Argentine Govt does not - please tell me which Govt continually twists and alters statements by others to suit itself? We all know that US Sec Hilary Clinton offerred the use of USA good offices(as an intermediary) IF Arg and UK wished to talk.She did NOT say UK should talk ,as is implied by Argentina! US policy you will find is pretty neutral.They prefer to be a friend to both sides.Remember in 1092 - they tried to be the same and work for peace, but finally gave up fed up with one side changing it mind every glassfull
Jun 24th, 2010 - 09:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0so finally came down heavily on the side of democracy and peoples rights - the US always will.
Same with Arg twisting of the wordings of “resolutions” etc from the C24 - they are NOT mandatory - all they do is invite both sides to seek a peacefull discussion to resolve the dispute. Since one side openly refuses to discuss anything other than how and when will it get the Islands - there is no point in discussions.
That is the sort of continual Arg hypocrisy that makes me laugh.
You have been away to long - the Bennies and Stills NEVER bothered us Islanders! It used to upset a few contractors and the military heirachy themselves - not us. Why there even used to be Landrovers driving around with “BennyWagon” painted on them. To us it was just a good joke. One of ours used to be calling the forces“When-Ies” - from their common phrase “when I was in Ireland-HongKong-Germany” etc etc. I dont think that really bothered them either.
I consider myself a moderate - who always tries to look at the argument from the other guys view as well (even if I dont agree with it) - to get a more balanced picture of where any “meeting in the middle” could be. But it gets more difficult daily with such a loony lot in charge in the Casa Rosada.
harrier wrote “The “Together Kingdom” is actually the “United Kingdom”, although we are more “together” than you are.”
Jun 24th, 2010 - 09:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Really?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3636385/The-Scots-destroyed-the-Union-so-vote-SNP.html
Thought this might come in handy for the Argie Army
Jun 24th, 2010 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100624/tsc-scientists-find-key-to-beating-fear-4b158bc.html
(27) Islander
Jun 24th, 2010 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say:
”US policy you will find is pretty neutral.
I say:
Get real!
You say:
”You have been away to long - the Bennies and Stills NEVER bothered us Islanders!”
I say:
I know.
Please read my entry (21)
You say:
”I consider myself a moderate - who always tries to look at the argument from the other guys view as well (even if I don’t agree with it) - to get a more balanced picture of where any “meeting in the middle” could be.”
I say:
That’s not the impression one gets reading your other entries in here, when you and the mates get the ”monobate” going.
You may think that your bipolar discourse works...... It doesn’t.
We don’t buy it.
The “relevant” Brits don’t buy it either.
They are NO FOOLS!
@stick up your junta
Jun 24th, 2010 - 10:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0haha Stick I don’t see the need of it. Do you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88w9zfGIH1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88w9zfGIH1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88w9zfGIH1M
May be you’ll need a lot of it for the next round. I think would be a lot of surprises. I promise you.
And BTW the Score is still 3 Argies 1= Brits why we should we be afraid of an inferior haha army force?
Comment removed by the editor.
Jun 24th, 2010 - 10:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“inferior haha army force?”
Jun 25th, 2010 - 12:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0Inferior? Your armed forces are still using equipment which was outdated in the last war.
In a few years we will have a couple of supercarriers, full with the most advanced jet in the world. Brand new subs, and destoryers.
Your armed forces were inferior in 1982, I very much doubt you could even REACH the islands with the defences it has now. Back in 82 all it had was a few troops. Now it has air sea and submarine defences.
You couldnt maintain air superiority against 20 non supersonic jets. How would you fare against typhoons? lmao.
The only supprise your armed forces could mount would be finding your way to the islands.
You say:
Jun 25th, 2010 - 01:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0”US policy you will find is pretty neutral.
I say:
Get real!
I think he is being real Think ... what's your evidence for the opposite view?
I would say that the policy is one the US has often favoured when it see's no advantage for it. The US would be unlikely to want to fall out with the UK. After all the common interests between the US and Britain are many and financially huge. For example, and some way behind China, I believe that Britain is the 3rd largest holder of US Treasury Bonds.
Forget Obamha, he'll be lucky to make a 2nd term!
Curious how Nicotine needs to steal a Spanish victory and call a large scale Skirmish a war to come up with the magical figure of 3-1? Perhaps he needs to reassure himself.
Jun 25th, 2010 - 01:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0As for the 3 video's of ship sinking porn which persons of his ilk masterbate wildly to every night he seems to have forgotten the climax, to save him the trouble I have posted it for him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVHjKLIDAUY
Think,
Jun 25th, 2010 - 01:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Fascinated about the “relevant brits”? Guardian writers and readers are they? The real relevant Brits are the 650 elected members of Parliament and the elected Government of the day. Since 1982 there has been no change in policy whatever the party. The current Govt even stated the position in Spanish the other week.
We seem to be at a good old mexican stand-off - but I am happy to hold the moral higher ground as at least I am prepared to consider and look at your side,s point of view. Time will tell in the end who is right, democracy, human rights and freedom tends to win in the end, albeit a few bumps along the way at times.
Anyway if no commercial hydrocarbons are confirmed - in 12 months time all the current fuss and bother will be largely forgotten about again. If they are found - well we move onto a very different playing field - with a ball definatley in our court.
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2010/gacol3212.doc.htm
Jun 25th, 2010 - 01:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks marco. suffering from wind are we?
Jun 25th, 2010 - 03:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hoy ,Obama will get second term, and he is very furiuos that the British tortured his grandfather and a British company is flooding the US golf ocean for the last 60 days and counting with oil, due to arrogance and high negligence, US rules UK , when they say jump the British ask how high.
Jun 25th, 2010 - 03:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0he is very furiuos that the British tortured his grandfather and a British company is flooding the US golf ocean
Jun 25th, 2010 - 05:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Jees the Falklands are doomed
(34) Hoyt
Jun 25th, 2010 - 06:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0I was answering to Islanders “Punchline”:
“US policy you will find is pretty neutral......................finally came down heavily on the side of democracy and peoples rights - the US always will.”
Woooooot? Excuuuuuuuuse me?
I remembered Timerman father description of the torture sessions where the only thing his mind could “relax” on, at “lunch break” was reading on and on again the little sign on the shiny black electrical torture appliance:
GE - Made in Chicago, Illinois.
(He never found the sticker “Donated by the People of the USA though)
You could drive some miles East Junior and ask people there about Americans siding “on democracy and peoples rights - the US always will.”
We are not counting on any Jan Kees dude..... Get real.
(36) Islander
Those 650 are exactly the ones I’m speaking about. (and the Civil Service Apparatus)
They know you better than you know yourself..
They “reinvented” you.
The present “Oil Bubble”,true or false, has indeed, changed the rules of the game.
Argentina intention is, together with our regional partners, to choke the economical fundament of the islands on “Free Market” terms.
Your old “lifestyle” as we both know is long gone.
It has been replaced by modern, economic independent people with dreams and ambitions.......
A “bunch of softies” some of your old geezers would call them.
That’s exactly the kind people that can and will move on when things get difficult.
“ ... Argentina intention is, together with our regional partners, to choke the economical fundament of the islands on “Free Market” terms...”
Jun 25th, 2010 - 06:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hey, that's ok ... a war is a war, a game a game ... and we're not bad at 'Free Market Terms', bring it on Think.
So tell me. any sign of commercial interests in Argentina panicking? Haven't seen any business reports here suggesting such but we're a long way away so perhaps it's taking time for the info to seep through. BHP Billington withdrawing from Falkland's exploration? Not a British company but they should still be in the firing line. How about the banks? Are they putting pressure on the British Government to abandon the islanders?
Mind you, I know that 'choking' can mean a slow death .... depends on how strong the digits are. Of course, 'Free Market Principles' could see a reduction in UK investment in Argentina. Tell me, what is the UK worth to Argentina, as a percentage of GDP perhaps?
(42) Hoyt
Jun 25th, 2010 - 07:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0You said it.....
An economical game....
And we are “bringing it on”... Hoyt
You say:
I know that 'choking' can mean a slow death .... depends on how strong the digits are.
I say:
It also depends on how strong the neck is.
Most sociological studies indicate that modern, financialy independent people with dreams and ambitions are quite ”thin necked” about the economy.
Like the UK has a monopoly on racism...
Jun 25th, 2010 - 08:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Argentina
(36)Islander
Jun 25th, 2010 - 08:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say:
”But I am happy to hold the moral higher ground
High Moral Grounds???
An excerpt from the article:
http://www.falklands.net/FalklandsCorruption.shtml
“That such a corrupt regime operates under the protection of the British government is a disgrace to every hard working Britain. British servicemen gave their lives in 1982, under the false belief that they were upholding democracy. These servicemen made that sacrifice to ensure that the people of the Falklands would have the right to lead their lives free from political tyranny; free to hold beliefs and opinions without oppression.
It is ironic that after British troops died for democracy in the Falklands, that a British citizen would be forced to flee the Falklands to escape political corruption and death threats, to seek democracy and freedom of speech in Argentina.”
Of course you know all of this......All Islanders do.......
Still you brag in here about your “Higher moral grounds”
And the “hard working” Briton swallows it.
And this is NOT the only example.
Everybody knows that in Port Stanley
Penguins eh! Now I wonder who wrote that article? Hope he's enjoying the New York sun :-)
Jun 25th, 2010 - 08:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0Morning Think ... still some lights on?
I bet Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein are green with envy
Jun 25th, 2010 - 08:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's nearly noon here. (and cloudy)
Jun 25th, 2010 - 09:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's not about Penguins... Who cares about them... They don't even taste good...
Interesting article for a lawyer isn´t it?
I don't think Mr Bingham is a lawyer Think, he's a scientist with a well known chip on his shoulder and at the end of the day, your little quote above is nothing more than the opinion of one man...
Jun 25th, 2010 - 09:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0Now there you go ... the Chang is getting to me (or will be when I walk the dog very shortly), I'm getting my Betts and my Bingham's confused. Whatever, hardly an objective or unbiased piece Think.
Jun 25th, 2010 - 09:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Nearly noon? Hope its Spain ... I always loved that country. Did the Camino de Santiago in 2005. Still got the ingrowing toenail :-)
time to walk the dog here!
(46) Sorry Hoyt...
Jun 25th, 2010 - 09:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Just remembered you said you weren't a lawyer.
But you was a kind of “Lawman”....
Trying to teach people to see “both sides ” if I recall correctly?
We have shown interest in negotiations without an especific agenda before (1971-1982), (1991-2003) and it was useless. Now it's time for them to come out with something original and stop with the very unlikely goal of a renouncement of our claim.
Jun 25th, 2010 - 10:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'm posting this where I can because Marco doesn't seem to want to respond on the appropriate article.
Jun 25th, 2010 - 10:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0As I have pointed out before, although Marcos obviously can't read anything because he's desperately trying to remember what someone told him to say:
1806 and 1807 were attacks by British expeditionary forces on outposts of the Spanish Empire, at the time a puppet-state of the Napoleonic French Empire with which Britain was at war. “Argentina” didn't exist.
1845. An Anglo-French naval squadron defeated and passed an embargo put in place by Juan Manuel de Rosas, dictator of the so-called Argentine Confederation, in an attempt to stop or profit from Anglo-French trade with Argentine inland cities that de Rosas did not control.
Describe how the removal of the inhabitants of the Chagos Archipelago was an “atrocity”. And Marco conveniently forgets to mention that they were removed so that the USA could build a military base. (But he wouldn't want to upset the USA that he no doubt thinks is supporting Argentina). And then the dumb-dumb goes on to quote tens of thousands of Iraqi civilian deaths. The Multinational Force Iraq composed troops of 40 nations. Four of them were South American. Can he quote the sources for attributing particular numbers of deaths to British Armed Forces?
C'mon Marco, ante up. Quote your referenced sources for your comments. Or admit that you are just spouting government-inspired crap.
(50) Dear Hoyt
Jun 25th, 2010 - 10:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say
I'm getting my Betts and my Bingham's confused.
I say:
That’s why I try to keep it simple for you.......... by not mentioning the Cliftons, the Glaedells, the Reynolds. the Vernets the ......... ........... .......... ............. ......
Islander1 knows them well.
Difficult people......
They difficult business....
“They don’t need that sort in the Falklands ”
Hoyt; you wag your dog, I wag mine....
C'mon Marco. Don't be shy, sonny boy. I'm sure everyone is waiting for your closely-reasoned, referenced-to-reliable-sources response. My statements and questions are going to keep on appearing until you manage an intelligent response.
Jun 25th, 2010 - 10:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Oh Lordy Think you didn't just use Mike Bingham as an Argument? You do know the man is a certified liar, fantasist and general all around cunt, ask Islander he probably has better insider knowledge on that troubled man.
Jun 25th, 2010 - 10:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0The man was found out to be a liar when his “scientific figures” for penguin deaths came under proper scrutiny a background check was done, turned out he had lied about just about everyone of his credential's, he even claimed he was shot at and the police raped his wife.
Perhaps you should like at his website in greater detail you will see that it is bullshit after bullshit and serves no other purpose than a vehicle to vent his spite, purchased degrees and falsified newspaper reports, it's pathetic really.
But it shows how incapable Argentines are on this debate if they are reduced to using roughly 4 Guardianista articles, and Mike Bingham's insane lies.
(56) Rhaurie
Jun 25th, 2010 - 11:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say:
You do know the man is a certified liar, fantasist and general all around cunt,
I say:
This article offers nearly unlimited possibilities for anybody to do proper research about the authenticity of Mr. Bingham’s claims.
http://www.falklands.net/FalklandsCorruption.shtml
What are you offering besides your aggressive words?
Think, that is not an article. It's a webpage on a website which belongs to Dr Bingham. His position is well known. It's nothing new, and I hardly think the option of a single scientist (not lawyer as you seem to think) counts for much with regard to the Falkland Island situation.
Jun 25th, 2010 - 11:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Dr Bingham might know a bit about penguins, but as you can see from his website, it relates to a single season and is woefully out of date.
Oh dear Think you really have been taken in by that obnoxious nobodies lies. I told you to look at the website, to the untrained eye it looks genuine but a closer inspection reveals it to be an elaborate fantasie created by a massive liar and fraud.
Jun 25th, 2010 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0IT was a fantsy website designed by Mike Bingham, for Mike Bingham's fantasy's and he isn't even a Dr he got a minor degree from the open university and not a PHD like he claimed from Sheffield.
all the links are to other fraud websites and organisations created by himself, and it's strange how the supposed links to New agencies are emmbedded within the websites HTML rather than an actual outside link?
Can you come up with any outside proof other than his own websites to support his fantasies? I doubt you can, and I doubt you will bother.
What the hell ... the dog walk was pretty good, if a little longer than expected ... hey, never trust politicians .... but never ever trust neighbours either!
Jun 25th, 2010 - 01:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(59) Rhaurie
Jun 25th, 2010 - 01:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Again you postulate a lot of things without a shred of evidence, besides your own words.
And then, you reverse the burden of proof on me.......
Lets take Dr. Bingham’s portrayal of his biggest “enemy” in the Islands.
The Honourable LEWIS CLIFTON :
He was the Chairman of ”Falklands Conservation” at the time.
True.
He was the Director of ”Desire Petroleum” at the time.
True.
That kind of “Conflict of Interests” is unacceptable anywhere.
True.
He was a member of the Legislative Assembly at the time.
True.
He had various posts in different Fishing Companies.
True.
A real Squidocrat.
(All my info is readily available on the respective official Internet sites)
I want to point that the same Lewis Clifton was fined and then sacked as Director for “Desire Petroleum” in 2009 for insider trading.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/4513134/Desire-director-fined-for-insider-trading.html
That’s speaks volumes about his “Moral”
The following link does not seem to me as a fantasy created by a massive liar and fraud.
It looks more like the “Little Man” against a lot of bast****.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/4513134/Desire-director-fined-for-insider-trading.html
May I now ask for some of your arguments besides your own words?
Comment removed by the editor.
Jun 25th, 2010 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes Think, it speaks volumes about his morals, but the moral of the story is nobody in the UK or Falklands is immune from the law, not like Argentina where you can get away with murder if you are sufficiently enchufado...
Jun 25th, 2010 - 04:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(56) (59) Rhaurie-Craughwell
Jun 25th, 2010 - 04:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And for some “strange reason”, I feel much more comfortable with the sincere words of these two Islanders than with yours Mr. Rhaurie-Craughwell..........
Terry Peck said about Dr. Bingham:
“I have no hesitation in saying he has been disgracefully treated. The whole thing stinks. He has not been given a fair crack of the whip.
Nobody is doing anything to help him. If penguins are declining that badly, something should be done quickly”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Peck
”Ian Strange; the pre-eminent Falklands naturalist has also reported an alarming decline in his famous rockhopper colony on New Island. Sea lion populations, thought to eat the same fish (including squid) as rockhoppers, are heavily down. ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Peck
Complete article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Peck
61 think
Jun 25th, 2010 - 04:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Because the Argentines are above all that jiggery-pokery
http://clacs.aas.duke.edu/funding/undergrad/mellon/hernandezpaper.pdf
Think, your Ian Strange quote does not appear ANYWHERE on his website - you give the link. However it does appear on Mike Bingham's website. Interesting...
Jun 25th, 2010 - 05:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Also, the dramatic fall in population of Rockhopper penguins is quite clearly spelled out on the http://www.falklandsconservation.com/ website. Nothing to hide there. Reasons why are complex and not necessarily related to fishing. Still under investigation. A conclusion based on one seasons' figures is a bit premature...
Think still masterbating over Mike Bingham, oh dear he does like to dig himself ever deeper holes!
Jun 25th, 2010 - 05:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You really aren't bothering to do what your name sake suggests are you? You just can't admit that you've made a collosal error using a hate filled little man who has been discredited (it was the Groniad ironically which outed him!) as a liar and fantasist as crystal clear fact just because he states is what you want to hear?
The article is over 10 years old and Mike Bingham's figures have long since been discredited (decline of 90% turned out to only be 43%).
But did you bother reading the Guardian article in full or did the title just catch your eye?
“he is a prickly, self-righteous, unclubbable man who ruffles people's feathers and is mostly the author of his own troubles. And, despite three separate inquiries so far into the documents behind his claims plus forays into the issue by Index on Censorship and the Sunday Times, nobody who tries to be objective can yet be positive which side is broadly right. The Falklands chief executive Andrew Gurr says that, after checks, the picture of harassment does not stand up”
-Hardly the claimed rape of his wife and being shot at and human rights abuses is it?
And this as well: “Bingham was due to be prosecuted last August for financial deception in getting his job with the charity by falsely claiming to have a university degree at the time. The prosecution was dropped because of high overseas witness costs. Bingham consistently denies the accusation. But the charity's London office produced an application form in his name claiming a first-class degree. Bingham actual degree, passed while he was on the Falklands, is from the Open University”
I set you a challenge, prove any of the obscene allegations on his website, you presented none except a list of Lewis Clifton's previous jobs? You have failed utterly to acreddit your use of Bingham! You glanced a source which at face value sponsored your own views ... pathetic!
Here's the latest Rockhopper Penguin report. Much more recent data than Mr Bingham's included.
Jun 25th, 2010 - 05:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.falklandsconservation.com/news/2010/rockhopper_report.pdf
Linked to on the Falklands Conservation website
Quote: “...there is little evidence that rockhopper penguins are
currently directly impacted by commercial fisheries at a significant level.”
Personally I'd stick with the opinion of real scientists...
(67) Rhaurie- Craughwell
Jun 25th, 2010 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Any sources/ links / documentation to back any of your words ?
Or just hot air?
Ahem here you go Think, now any sources/independant documents to rescue your badly beaten credibility from your little waltz with Bingham? OR do you take his outrageous and quite extraordinary allegations at face value and the ultimate godly of incorruptible truths just his self indulging boasts and spiteful outburts and lies perfectly into your terribly biased mindset and gives you everything piece of negative info you crave to hear about the islands gift wrapped on a silver patter?
Jun 25th, 2010 - 08:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.mercopress.com/2003/10/31/penguin-news-update
http://en.mercopress.com/2003/10/31/penguin-news-update
http://en.mercopress.com/2003/10/31/penguin-news-update
All the proof you need Think! The man is a certified wanker, liar and fantasist the reallity differed so much from what he wants you to believe.
But I'm not surprised you Argentines have an inherent psychological need to beleive lies about the island, it shelters you from the reallity of your lies and falsified manipulation of history.
I expect your sincere apolodgy for using Michael Bingham (he uses Mike because if you type Michael then you see the truth!) as an argument.
Nice one RC
Jun 25th, 2010 - 09:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(70) Rhaurie Craughwell
Jun 25th, 2010 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for your info.
The Guardian link you provide is a follow-up of my own link, confirms most of the data of the first article and informs that two official inquiries dismiss Dr. Bingham’s harassment allegations.
Hardly surprising that he could not prove them under the circumstances.
Then two links from MercoPress that you provide are the official version of the case against a Dr. Bingham.
The title of the first one is ”Bingham wins in Supreme Court”
That is was Dr. Bingham writes in his page. Where is he lying?
The title of the second one is ” Executive Committee decision was morally and constitutionally indefensible'”
That is was Dr. Bingham writes in his page. Where is he lying?
The only new element I can find is the disclosure of the “lesser quality” of Dr
Bingham’s academic title.
Hardly something to justify your verbal regurgitation against him.
A lone biologist, a whistleblower against the Squidocracy that runs the Islands as they see fit.
I say:
Well done Dr Bingham
The only new element I can find is the disclosure of the “lesser quality” of Dr
Jun 25th, 2010 - 10:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bingham’s academic title.
Yes, so he's actually Mr Bingham.
You appear to like penguins more than you made out Think .... :-)
Jun 26th, 2010 - 12:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0Anybody really interested in Mike Bingham's supposed science credentials should read his PhD thesis (if you can call it that). Anyone with with some grasp of robust research will see this is just laughable and does not deserve to be called science.
Jun 26th, 2010 - 02:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.falklands.net/resume.htm#bookmark1
By mentioning this it is by no means intended to whitewash FIG's fishing policy, but any criticism should be based on solid facts and solid science, not what he produced.
Think, you appear to be an intelligent guy, so please have a read of this thesis and draw your own conclusion on the merit of this man's 'work'.
( 74 ) Hoyt
Jun 26th, 2010 - 06:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0No, not really... Not even when they call me one.....But some are cute.... I don’t like the new Rockhopper though....
Just reacting to Islander1 “Moral High grounds” declaration at (36)
As the old Spanish proverb goes...:
“The higher they fly... The harder they fall...”
Hope the meaning doesn’t get “lost in translation”
(75) JoJo
Morning Sir
Every Whistleblower in history has been discredited.... That is how it’s done... Demolish the mans credibility and you destroy the “Inconvenient Truth”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore%27s_Penguin_Army
But....
I would be glad if you could tell me how to grasp Dr. Bingham’s thesis with a “Robust Researchers Eye”?
I read it and it looks Ok to me.
But I’m not an penguin expert as I said before.
And please don’t answer sort of: “That only proofs that you are an infantile baby toddler” or so........
They are too many in here already answering this way.
Dr. Bingham has been called many things in here...
For me, he’s a kind of Ben Knox. A real “Local Hero” as they are many in Patagonia....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore%27s_Penguin_Army
Think, we say, “The bigger they are, the harder they fall”. We come from a small island you know ..... islands in fact :-)
Jun 26th, 2010 - 09:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0(77) Hoyt
Jun 26th, 2010 - 10:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0But...............But.............
You have, in the past weeks successfully convinced me that you Britons are bigger than us in any imaginable field.
Morality, politics, humanism, economy, intelligence, maturity, influence, relevance the list is so long .......... ..... ....
And now you tell me that you are “Small”
Well this proves it!
You are bigger than us at modesty too!!
Not bigger, think. Better.
Jun 26th, 2010 - 11:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0Reading and looking at Mr. Timerman undisputed record of loyalty to the Kirchners, is like seeing the henchmen of Adolf Hitler.
Jun 26th, 2010 - 01:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(80) Liberty
Jun 26th, 2010 - 01:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hmmmmm.... here is Liberty the false Uruguayan from the other thread......
Hello botija
In response to Think #77
Jun 26th, 2010 - 03:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0well, if it looks ok to you then perhaps you should investigate what a PhD generally involves. Not everyone can write a thesis of a mere 14 pages with a few graphs, no tables to speak of, lots of suppositions, and claim it is a solid piece of work. Has it ever occurred to you that Bingham may have had an agenda as a wildlife warrior before writing his thesis, and that whatever the work his results would show negative impact of fishing? But then surprisingly, Mr. (not Dr.) Bingham did not actually study with a real university. The degree that he was awarded cost him around $2,000 with a university called Shelbourne university. I note that Wiki has got a good entry on what these sorts of degrees involve, and the link should help you with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Degree_Program
The point of my writing this is that the research is seriously flawed and the man himself a fraud. If he was a genuine whistleblower with valid data and irrefutable proof, then of course notice would have been taken, as respectable journals would have published (but they haven't!).
Perhaps if you have a concern about impacts of fishing on penguin (or other wildlife populations) then I suggest you read peer-reviewed scientific journals which provides a guarantee that the hypotheses made are based on fact, not speculation, and use these to form your opinion.
Argentina exercise no sovereignty rights over the Malvinas, because Argentina has no sovereignty rights. It has no say in what happens there because the peoples there wish nothing to do with Argentina.
Jun 26th, 2010 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Islanders are exercising there right to freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development & for their own ends, freely disposing of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice as guaranteed as their inalienable rights under UN General Assembly resolution 1514(XV) which was voted for 89-0 & Argentina voted that it should apply to the case of the Malvinas.
However, Argentina is in breach of the UN Charter & resolution 1514(XV) because it is employing repressive measures directed against Islanders in order to prevent the Islanders exercising peacefully and freely their right to complete independence through self-determination. Furthermore Argentina is disrespecting & disrupting the integrity of their national territory again in defiance of the ordinance of resolution 1514(XV), which Argentina & the UN General Assembly voted to apply to the Malvinas.
Shame on Argentina.
(82) JoJo
Jun 26th, 2010 - 04:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dr. Bingham's thesis is neither about Quantum Mechanics nor about the conceptual understanding of Heidegger’s “Dasein” concept.
Is about counting bloody Penguins!
Dead penguins, big penguins, live penguins, small penguins, starving penguins.
Normal field research with normal, coherent conclusions.
“Logic for Patagonian dummies” (The dummy here being me)
If you keep 1.000 sheep per hectare in your ranch, they eventually will die for multiple reasons.
Like starvation, malnourishment or hunger.
No rocket science here......
And you are missing the point totally (again) by saying things like:
“If he was a genuine whistleblower with valid data and irrefutable proof, then of course notice would have been taken”
No way Jose.....That’s why they are called “Whistleblowers”, mate.
They blow the whistle on a system that knows it is doing something wrong.
And the system normaly strikes back.
Like in the case of Dr. Bingham
Think,
Jun 26th, 2010 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am not here to trade insults. A PhD is suppposed to be awarded after a solid piece of research, not the stuff that Bingham produced. And this is exactly why he chose to use a university like Shelbourne, where no questions are asked! If you ignore this aspect altogether, then you clearly have little idea what standards are expected of a researcher.
Sure it is about counting penguins, but how all this is done is paramount. The point is, he did not do this properly, nor were his study sites extensive enough to draw the conclusions he did. For instrance, from studying one island in the Falklands and one in the MAgellan and comparing their respective breeding succes and extrapolating this for the whole region is meaningless. The statistical confidence in this sort of data is very low, and so meaningless. The next island along could well compensate for island no. 1. If you fail to appreciate the difference, then don't enter into an argument about the supposed merits of this rubbish piece of conjecture.
And I am not missing the point at all. A whistleblower would be good if he actually has a valid point. But he hasn't. On the other hand, peer-reviewed census work by reputable scientists (from Falkland Conservation for instance) have not mirrored his findings at all, and on many occassions found the opposite. Serious penguin mortalities some years ago were proven to be caused by red tide and climate changes, not fishing.
Albatross mortalities however have been linked to fishing, but FIG has managed to reduce these to around 500 per year, compared to thousands per year in the nineties, and work is still progressing further to get it down more. If only other fishing zones (like the AR EEZ and Brazilian one) would follow suit these populations would be even better protected, but this may be just a distant dream. Perhaps you can get Bingham onto that case in Argentina, as you seem to put so much faith in him and his methods?
Have fun now....
Why do we bother with this?
Jun 26th, 2010 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0First it was Alexander AKA Alejandro Betts.
Now its Michael probably AKA Miguel Bingham.
Tell you what, all you South Americans, I assume you, or some of you, are Catholics. Try this:
You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
It can be proven that the Falkland Islanders were there first. So you are not only trying to overturn their rights and the UN Charter and resolutions but also God's Law.
(85)JoJo
Jun 26th, 2010 - 08:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0From The official Falklands site:
http://www.falklandsconservation.com/
”There has been a dramatic decline (estimated at 85%) in the population of Rockhoppers over at least the past 75 years. In 1995, Falklands Conservation counted 300,000 breeding pairs (600,000 birds); in 2005 this number was down to 210,400 pairs. The reasons for this decline are not yet fully understood and are in line with similar reductions in other crested penguin populations elsewhere in the world (Auckland, Antipodes and Campbell Islands). ”
(But NOT in Chile and Argentina’s population that seem to be stable. N.A.)
Re-evaluation of Historical Rockhopper Penguin Population Data in the Falkland Islands
http://www.falklandsconservation.com/
Abstract:
“Over the past 70 years, three counts have been conducted on the Rockhopper Penguin population on the Falkland Islands during the 1932/33, 1995/96 and 2000/01 breeding seasons.
A re-evaluation of these data revealed that the original population was substantially overestimated and the 1930s numbers were probably closer to 1.5 million breeding pairs. Modifications to the mid-1990s data produce a revised population estimate of about 263,000, rather than 297,000 breeding pairs.
Based on these revised values, the overall decrease in the Rockhopper Penguin at the Falkland Islands between 1932 and 1995 still exceeded 80%, at a rate of ca. 2.75% per annum.
Dr. Bingham’s has always asserted a decline of 90% in penguin population.
Pretty accurate I would say!!
Draw your own conclusions, mate.
harrier61 (86)
Jun 26th, 2010 - 08:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I bother with this because I don't believe in falshoods, just like you keep doing with respect to the self-determination issue, and I don't see any harm in this. A lot of people (especially those who don't live in the islands) just don't know too much about the Bingham issue. I have to say though that the debate often goes of course, and Bingham is an example, but hey, its a free world, and we can debate accordingly. So, let's not beat each other up about it.
Personally I am a bit tired of the whole sovereignty debate and the debatable issue of 1833. We should just forget about it, and so should Argentina. We have aright to exist as a nation, which we do, and that's all that matters in the end. As I have said before, posession is 9/10 of the law. We have owned the islands for so long, we own it, we keep it (and look after the penguins!)
(88)
Jun 26th, 2010 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for your no answer :-(
Think, typed the previous one before I saw yours.
Jun 26th, 2010 - 08:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Rockhopper is one of four penguins. Most importantly, you have hit the nail on the head. Decrease in RKH penguins from 1932-1995 is estimated from 1.5 million breeding pairs to ~270,000. So, what is this drastic decrease caused by, since fishing didn't start on large scale until the mid 1980's?
and don't call me mate, this is a term we brits reserve for people we like :)
Still nothing from Marco.
Jun 26th, 2010 - 08:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And Twinky is off on a completely different track. Can't keep to the subject, i.e. the article.
(90)JoJo
Jun 26th, 2010 - 09:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Suddenly you shift your cool scientific approach to number fiddling......
I can deduce by reading your entry 88 that you are an Islander.
I used the “Bingham Case” just to exemplify that moral standards in Malvinas are not a tad better than any other place in the world.
As I wrote to another islander before:
You Islanders are caught in an unfortunate geopolitical hunt for resources and are being used as pawns by all sides.
You choose to laugh at us, sub estimate us and ignore us... That’s your prerogative. Have fun.....
Rubbing our noses in our own oil whilst playing the card of “little people” that only want to be let alone with their simple lives was not the smartest thing to do.
This “Oil Bubble”,true or false, has indeed, changed the rules of the game.
Argentina intention is, together with our regional partners, to choke the economical fundament of the islands on “Free Market” terms.
Lets see then how many of those economical independent ambitious entrepreneurs stay.
@Think: It's not Argentine oil; it belongs to the Islanders. Argentina exercises no sovereignty over the Islands & does not possess them. Argentina has no say it what happens in the Islands territorial waters.
Jun 26th, 2010 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Islanders belong to the Islanders & Argentina is required by resolution 1514(XV) to ensure that:
“ Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom”
& that:“
”All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.”
Instead The AR state criminally protrays the Islanders as stateless non-persons, in an attempt to justify removal of their irreproachable fundamental human right to self-determination to the Argentine & S. American mob
The AR state exploits & encourages popular bigotry to demonise the Islanders minority enthnic group & uses the state indoctrination system to scapegoat the Islanders & their British guardians, who defend the Islanders right to self-determination & frustrate the AR territorial ambitions, in a successful but mendacious effort to protray Argentines as the victims so that the mob will accept the criminal oppression of the Islanders as “justified”
Moreover AR state policy of territorial colonialism seeks the imposition of government, social structure & economic control against the expressed democratic will of the Islanders or their mass deportation from their homes as scapegoats to criminally deprive them of their property, land &
freedom
Shame on Argentina.
Think:
Jun 26th, 2010 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Since you ignore my crucial comments, perhaps you will forgive me if I choose to ignore your accusations of number fiddling!
“You Islanders are caught in an unfortunate geopolitical hunt for resources and are being used as pawns by all sides.
You choose to laugh at us, sub estimate us and ignore us... That’s your prerogative. Have fun.....”
May I remind you that after negotiations in the 90's we collaborated on fisheries research as well as in oil exploration, and flights. First AR unilaterally withdrew from the South Atlantic Fisheries Comittee in around 2005, and then it also unilaterally withdrew from the oil agreement, and then the open skies policy suddenly did not apply either anymore. You can hardly claim that we have been ignoring AR. Discover of oil was always a possibility, and we are not rubbing your noses in it. You are doing this to yourselves. That you are feeling resentful now is due to your own government's unwillingness to cooperate.
And:
“Argentina intention is, together with our regional partners, to choke the economical fundament of the islands on “Free Market” terms”
Yeah, well, we have noticed. Not much “free market” about this strategy, more like economic blockade, which Domingo points out how wrong and illegal it is.
But hey, carry on, just remember why islanders always refer to argentina as a bully!
Indeed shame on Argentina
Domingo at least, in all his “lucidity” only speaks with one tongue.
Jun 26th, 2010 - 11:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Shame on Argentina
Jun 26th, 2010 - 11:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It would appear that David Cameron has put Ms Kirchner in her place at this week's G-20!
Jun 27th, 2010 - 01:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0(97) Hoyt
Jun 27th, 2010 - 05:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say:
It would appear that David Cameron HAS PUT Ms Kirchner in her place...
Telegraph says:
David Cameron IS SET TO restate “robustly” Britain's sovereignty ...
British sources said the Prime Minister WOULD starkly turn down....
A source close to Mr Cameron said: “HE WILL be robust.....
Added that Mr Cameron WAS simply preparing a tough response.....
It hasn't even happen yet!
Are you ”Warping” time now?
@twink
Jun 27th, 2010 - 07:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Domingo at least, in all his “lucidity” only speaks with one tongue
make that 2
¡Ahora vos sabés boludo!
'Has' 'Will”, Last day of the G-20 today, so do you know that it has not happened yet? Of course if the lady can resist the temptation to broach the subject maybe it'll never happen :-)
Jun 27th, 2010 - 08:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hey ho ... no change :-)
Ok then, you just warped time a “teeny weeny” bit.
Jun 27th, 2010 - 08:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Must be the Chang-Hang.
Over :-)
It's just a jump to the left .....
Jun 27th, 2010 - 09:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0TWIMC
Jun 27th, 2010 - 09:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0I just want to correct some misconceptions about the alleged illegality of the Argentinean economic strategy against the British Overseas Territory of the Falklands.
Levies, charges, tariffs, duties, restrictions and national / regional regulations / laws etc. will be applied to anyone using any of our regional infrastructure to trade with the Malvinas.
Similar kind of restrictive measures will apply to anyone making business with both sides.
Be it tourism, transport, fishery, mineral and oil extraction..... whatever.
We utilize the “United States Cuba Embargo” as an inspiration and working example, discarding most of the contentious elements and keeping the useful ones.
We are not boycotting the UK or any other country, just any Falkland/ Malvinas related business.
We still want our Guinness and Colman’s Mint Sauce!
These economical measures are being implemented at consumer, local, national and regional level.
Kind of going to Tesco and choosing NOT to buy Argentinean meat, I guess.
All other Companies/Actors in the international market will, of course, continue their relationship with the British Overseas Territory as they see fit............... but without the benefit of employing our regional infrastructure.
Cost/benefit analysis, as always, will be the deciding factor for those companies.
Incitement of Argentines to hatred and active discrimination against the Islanders as a foreign ethnic group is illegal.
Jun 27th, 2010 - 11:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Changing Argentine laws to directly discriminate against the Islanders as a foreign ethnic group is illegal, including interfering with free markets to artificially bias cost/benefit analysis.
Argentine is bound by resolution 1514(XV) which it voted for to apply to the Islanders and in taking these and other prejudicial actions is in breach of the UN General Assembly declaration that:
Immediate steps shall be taken, in ...Non-Self-Governing Territories...to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.
All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.
Any attempt [by Argentina or other state] aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and their territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
.... and then a step to the right .....
Jun 27th, 2010 - 11:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0I didn't know Coleman's did a mint sauce ?
As for the economic stuff, hey, it's Argentina's call. Up to you (as they say around here). Looking at the balance of Trade, it'll be Argentina that loses out, particularly if Cameron's recent stance indicates a hardening of British government attitudes! The Falklands have survived being cut off from South America before, they'll survive again.
Ok, it's 2000 miles but I'm sure Tristan de Cunha would like a little business, or St. Helena, or Ascension ... we've defeated a few embargoes in our time. What Argentina should remember is that what goes around, comes around ... ! And if there's a LOT of oil, then which way will the big players bend?
... With your hands on your hips
You bring your knees in tight
But it's the pelvic thrust that really drives you insane
lets do ................. ?
... the Time Warp again!
Jun 27th, 2010 - 12:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0or how about the Hokey Cokey?
Knees bent, arms stretched
Ra ra ra
(105)Hoyt
Jun 27th, 2010 - 12:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Braised mutton with creamy leeks and Coleman's mint sauce.....
Washed down with a pint Einbecker....
Paradise on Earth...
isn't trying to place an embargo on the islands just cutting your nose to spite your face? there could be trillions of dollars worth of oil which the argentine economy would benefit greatly from.
Jun 27th, 2010 - 01:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Does your nation really thing that placing this embargo will change anything? the only difference will be that another nation will benefit from the money.
Pretty childish to be honest.
(108) Zethe
Jun 27th, 2010 - 01:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0On the contrary....
We are developing our own potential business together with Petrobras and some Far West Oil companies that have a higher revenue potential for the region than those small ”shell” oil companies ever could offer.
Hmm, judging by your track record of economic management I don't think the Falklands have anything to fear. You might have a “higher potential” Think, but for a country which went from 4th largest GDP in the world to now about 30th, will probably remain exactly that... potential...
Jun 27th, 2010 - 02:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Breaking News !!!
Jun 27th, 2010 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina’s Foreign Minister Timerman most popular person according to Independent British news Agency!
Minister Timerman occupies all top five “most commented” places in the MercoPress list.
Twinky.
Jun 27th, 2010 - 04:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You're repeating yourself again!
So, Prime Minister Cameron tells Botox Queen, “Keep your hands off the Falkland Islands or we'll cut them off.”
I am a Brutish citizen, born and raised in Brutain and I vehemently demand an immediate retaliatory nuclear bombardment of Montevideo by the Brutish Royal Navy.
Jun 27th, 2010 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Larrionda
That’s why!
God Save the King
Aha. Spotted your mistake. Great Britain has no King, rather HRH Queen Elizabeth II.
Jun 27th, 2010 - 05:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As it is, I suspect the English are fairly chilled out as the Germans won fair & square by outplaying the English team.
As to the ref., well as the saying goes “C'est la vie!”. England had some luck in 1966, but in reality the Germans had the measure of the England team; although 2-2 at half-time might have made for a more competitive 2nd half.
It's a shame the ref. & assistant refs. didn't spot the England goal for 2-2, but they are only human and mistakes are made. It's all part of the game.
Nonetheless, that takes nothing away from a really impressive German performance, well done Germany. Good onya Deutschland, says I!
Also good luck to Argentina & Mexico next. May the best team win!
It should be a fantastic match to witness!!!!
Vamos, vamos Argentina,
vamos, vamos a ganar,
que esta barra quilombera,
no te deja, no te deja de alentar.
For us, old enough to remember the good old times!
Jun 27th, 2010 - 05:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__MJV11nRqU
In all honestey i had no doubts that england would win.
Jun 27th, 2010 - 08:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Personally i think Argentina will win it. When it comes to sports britan is awfull.
HOITRED. J. A. ROBERT.
Jun 27th, 2010 - 11:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Guys i have to answer you in this articule, because the articule of june 17th is allready closed.
JASON: Firstly the expert who i will visit next thursday is not the same than the minister of our chancery, she is retired professor from the u.b.a, so, she can be independent in her opinions.
Beside, why dont you wait to read my survey instead of making a prejudgment, you have no idea about the documents that i am using, on the other hand, maybe our minister can omit information, but what she can't do is to lie, i have abundant knowleadge of the british perspective to avoid every kind of omitions, my questiosn are allways correctly found, and i asked her about all your arguments, and she refuted me all of them, but i will do now, is to compare what she told me, with the opinions of the expert from the u.b.a.
About the statement of mr short, if we are going to talk about historic facts, we must mention all of them, we dont have to omit what is not convenient for our ideological posture, like he did.
On the other hand, it's really cheap to use the war to reject every negotiation with arg., that war was made by a dictatorship, i allready explained you the way that the junta handled all the press, and how the had been telling lies to us during all those years, specially during the monthes of the war, dont you think that it's unfair that all of us pay, the terribble consecuences of the irresponsability of a delirious moron with napolenic ambitions?.
HOITRED: The letters that i have are much longer tham what you could read in the other articule, you can think whatever you want about it, but i have planty of evidences that support our cause and yours, i accept you apologize and i respect your posture.
AXEL HERRERA REYES.
Axel - I should say that the relevance of the 1849 exchange is lost on me as I believe that the matter was resolved in 1833 although I understand that you are attempting to fight the 'acquiesence' claim for the period following 1833. Not sure whether that will help arguing against the Treaty of Settlement which was ratified in 1850 as much of the 'acquiesence' argument is for the period following that.
Jun 28th, 2010 - 03:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'll stick to the period prior to 1833.
117 Axel - “Beside, why dont you wait to read my survey instead of making a prejudgment”
Jun 28th, 2010 - 07:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well to be fair Axel you appear to be writing the article on the bases of a prejudged conclusion.
THIMC
Jun 28th, 2010 - 08:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0After nearly 2 weeks debating in this forum I have come to the conclusion that many of you believe that:
The Malvinas Basin can just be develop as we want, Argentina can do nothing and if they don’t want to cooperate we have other options like Chile, Uruguay or Brazil.
Well........as Mr.Beef, our resident oil and investment expert always says:
Do your own research!
(I include just a few links from an ”independent” source.)
http://en.mercopress.com/2010/06/23/argentine-congress-to-vote-bill-discriminating-companies-working-in-the-falklands
http://en.mercopress.com/2010/06/23/argentine-congress-to-vote-bill-discriminating-companies-working-in-the-falklands
http://en.mercopress.com/2010/06/23/argentine-congress-to-vote-bill-discriminating-companies-working-in-the-falklands
http://en.mercopress.com/2010/06/23/argentine-congress-to-vote-bill-discriminating-companies-working-in-the-falklands
http://en.mercopress.com/2010/06/23/argentine-congress-to-vote-bill-discriminating-companies-working-in-the-falklands
http://en.mercopress.com/2010/06/23/argentine-congress-to-vote-bill-discriminating-companies-working-in-the-falklands
As you can read, all four countries in the region are already cooperating in substantial oil projects.
It is improbable they would risk loosing an already existing business for the sake of some “long shot” projects run by some small British oil companies.
As my Grandpapa used to say: “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.”
Argentina’s political strategy is, of course, to make it economically unattractive for our neighbors to collaborate with anybody making business with Malvinas.
My honest conclusion as newly started amateur oil investment consultant is that Argentina can do plenty to upset the British development of the Malvinas Basin and that She is doing it.
A detail any potential investor should not be oblivious of.
And remember: Never invest more than you can afford to loose!
Think Oil Inc.
So we can assume that the enviromental impact on the region is a non starter in the Argie argument
Jun 28th, 2010 - 08:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.mercopress.com/2010/04/09/argentina-to-drill-two-wells-next-to-falklands-waters-in-last-quarter
Yeah, we got it the first time.
Jun 28th, 2010 - 08:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0“why dont you wait to read my survey instead of making a prejudgment”
Jun 28th, 2010 - 11:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0Axel. You already have a position and you have not even completed your “survey”, so why should we not prejudge the situation when you do that yourself?
Axel. We're not waiting for your survey because you're a pillock. You start with “minister of our chancery, she is retired professor from the u.b.a, so, she can be independent in her opinions.” You then come out with the nonsensical comment that “what she can't do is to lie.” Think on. Your government lies to you all the time. And finally you cap it with “the opinions of the expert from the u.b.a.” That would be the same “u.b.a.” that produced your minister of chancery, would it?
Jun 28th, 2010 - 12:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just as a matter of curiousity, I note that “Access to the university is free of charge for everyone, including foreigners.” (from Wikipedia). So who funds the university, eh? Wouldn't be the Argentine government, would it?
What purpose is an economic war/blockade of the Falklands supposed to achieve?
Jun 28th, 2010 - 01:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They somehow believe by alienating the islanders that they will suddenly want to become citizens of Argentina.
Jun 28th, 2010 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Axel. I have a REAL project for you. It's a fairly simple one. Trot round to the various buildings of the UBA. Count how many faculty members there are. (Faculty = academic staff). Then find out how many are prepared to publically disagree with Government policies/actions.
Jun 28th, 2010 - 04:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We know you won't lie to us when you come back with the results.
120 Think (#)
Jun 28th, 2010 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“After nearly 2 weeks debating in this forum I have come to the conclusion that many of you believe that:
The Malvinas Basin can just be develop as we want”
Well, no actually, because most of the Malvinas basin is on the Argentine side
http://www.bgs.ac.uk/falklands-oil/images/reggeo/basins.jpg
The Islanders are developing the North and South basins. Which they can develop as they want.
When the dogs bark it is because we are working
Jun 28th, 2010 - 06:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dogs, dagos, what's the difference? Just the letter “a”. Dagos also crap wherever they happen to be, without regard for human decency.
Jun 28th, 2010 - 07:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When the dogs bark it is because we are working
Jun 28th, 2010 - 08:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Think is upney =one stop from Barking
.....“They somehow believe by alienating the islanders that they will suddenly want to become citizens of Argentina.”....
Jun 29th, 2010 - 05:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0- Argentine government doesn't care if islanders want to become argentine citizens or not, we just want our rights to be respected by pirate Britain.
What rights would that be jorgey boy
Jun 29th, 2010 - 05:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0I've been two years here talking about them, you came late, I won't repeat them for you.
Jun 29th, 2010 - 06:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Argentine government doesn't care if islanders want to become argentine citizens or not, we just want our rights to be respected by pirate Britain.”
Jun 29th, 2010 - 07:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0And thats your fundimendal failiure. You don't have any.
Might is right. :)
Those are our islands, we have all the rights there, you will have to recognize it one day, I'm young, maybe I'll be still alive to see it.
Jun 29th, 2010 - 07:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0To see what, HM's Forces give you another spanking?
Jun 29th, 2010 - 08:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0THIMC
Jun 29th, 2010 - 09:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0I luuuuv how this journalist avoids by any means to mention the ”A” word
http://en.mercopress.com/2010/06/28/soccer-first-played-by-the-guarani-paraguay-according-to-the-vatican#comments
He chooses to write:
Soccer was born ....in San Ignacio Miní during the XVII century, in a region now identified as Misiones to the south of Paraguay’s capital Asunción.
He should have written:
Soccer was born ....in San Ignacio Miní during the XVII century, in a region now identified as the province of Misiones, to the north of Argentina’s capital Buenos Aires.
Anyhow..... the rest of the article is just useless Catholic South-American judeo-communist brainwash.
Everybody knows that it was the Chinese who invented Football.
“On the other hand, it's really cheap to use the war to reject every negotiation with arg.”
Jun 29th, 2010 - 11:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0Axel, has Argentina ever apologised for that act of unprovoked aggression? No, instead there are plenty of your countrymen who would justify and continue to do so. Therein lies the problem.
Does Argentina pursue a path of reconciliation? No it does not, when an Olive branch was proffered by the British during the 25th anniversary it was dasjed from our hands. Instead Argentina has continued to pursue a aggressive policy of confrontation and intimidation.
Whats changed?
Money talks!
Jun 29th, 2010 - 11:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Excerpts from leading Oil Industry News Agency article:
Oil and Latin American experts have mixed opinions about whether U.K. oil firms actually need the Argentine government's help to siphon out any oil from the contested waters.....
Even if commercially viable oil at current prices or natural gas is found, projects would ”somehow require the use of infrastructure in Argentina” such as ports and pipelines, Daniel Kerner, a Latin America analyst at the Eurasia Group in New York, told OilPrice.com. At the very least, he said, this infrastructure would help make the project more viable, otherwise all of the needed equipment would have to be shipped in, he added.......
“Is it worth the investment? Are there rigs available? The South Atlantic is not a particularly hospitable place to do any kind of deep-water drilling. So we still have to find out whether or not the technology which exists is applicable to the Falklands.”........
In the midst of this, it’s doubtful any Latin American country will cooperate with the U.K., Kerner said. Argentina’s President Christina Fernández de Kirchner in fact has been rallying support from her continental neighbors, and in recent days began to mend fences with Peru, a country it fell out of favor with 16 years ago.....
Kirchner has done everything in her power to make it difficult for companies pursuing the potential oil windfall. Kirchner forced boats using Argentine ports or passing through the country's waters en route to the Falklands to get special permits, and introduced a United Nations resolution reprimanding the U.K. for permitting oil exploration off the islands. The president also tabled a bill that would impose a 30-day deadline on firms to sever ties with the islands or be run out of Argentina.......
The U.N. has passed several resolutions urging both sides to negotiate but the British have declined, Kerner said.......
That no significant international oil company is participating in the drilling, meanwhil
@think
Jun 29th, 2010 - 12:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The oil aint going nowhere, it will be there for the taking sooner or later with or without argie help
Some oil is actually going somewhere....
Jun 29th, 2010 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This guy seems to know his business and it's not good news :-0http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6593#comment-648967
All the more reason to leave the Falklands oil alone till technology improves along with the Argies attitude
Jun 29th, 2010 - 01:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0HARRIER. J. A. ROBERT. JUSTIN. HOYTRED.
Jun 29th, 2010 - 07:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0HARRIER: My survey does not finish with the interview that i will have with the expert form the u.b.a on thursday, in fact i will search another expert too, but from the private sector, because i need to heard diferent opinions, beside the expert who i will talk with, is not the same woman who is a minister from our chancery.
JASON: If i advice you to wait to read my survey, is because i found many evidences that support our cause , and the rights of the u.k., the line of my survey is not anti british, i am just trying to stablish the rights of booth countrys on the malvinas, beside i only refuted some of your assertions, because what you say, does not coincide with what i found in the international right , anyway the most important part of my investigation, are the words of the experts who i will talk with, what i dont like from you, is that you have allways understimated my survey, you have no idea about the documents that i am using, that's why i say that you are prejudging.
JUSTIN: You are right when you say that my country never apologized for what happened in 1982, i think it must do it in some moment, but you are absolutly wrong when you say that many of my countrymen would justify the events of 1982, it's evident that you have no idea about how many of us think, you dont talk to our people, you dont live here, i talk in many oportunitys about the malvinas cause, because i have allways cared about it, that's why i know what i am telling you, beside i really think that you still dont learn to separate the context from the dictatorship, from the context of 2010, most you think that we could invade you again, that shows how brainwashed you are, and how out of the reality you live.
HOYTRED: My survey includes evidences of our rights, that belong to the period before of 1833, specially during colonial times.
AXEL HERRERA REYES.
No Axel. I'm not interested in your dopey survey. Come up with the facts that I asked you for. Who funds your precious university? How many faculty members does it have? How many publicly disagree with the Argentine government? If any of your sources are in Argentina they are worthless to the educated because, on the subject of the Falklands, Argentines are quite capable of faking things and, in any event, are brainwashed.
Jun 29th, 2010 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Axel, im afraid your survey is a big fat waste of time. Like i've said before. who had claim to the islands 170 years ago was relivent 170 years ago. It's not now.
Jun 29th, 2010 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The world has moved on and the current occupants have lived there for longer than anyone else in history.
Also:
“from the context of 2010, most you think that we could invade you again, that shows how brainwashed you are, and how out of the reality you live.”
Actually, it's been a few of your fellow citizens who seem to have a bloated oppinion of your armed forces. Mostly we just laugh at the thought.
B (ig )P (roblem)
Jun 29th, 2010 - 09:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At my age, I’m blessed with a good portion of skepticism, a slight touch of paranoia, a “beer sensitive” prostate, a stroke of Alzheimers light, a flair for discussions an a wicked sense of humour.....
But yesterday, while googlinng for fun, trying to find “teasers” against British Petroleum a nasty dimension suddenly opened......
The multiple leaks on the sea bottom at the Deepwater Horizon site.
I do not know if this “ Yank” is right or not but if it is and the ”bottom kill” fails, then we are in for a party of some universal proportions!
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6593#comment-648967
Nasty.....
|Twinky. You already gave us that link, thanks. But maybe you should get down to the coast with a bucket.
Jun 30th, 2010 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0and spade:-)
Jun 30th, 2010 - 12:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0HARRIER AND ZETHE.
Jul 02nd, 2010 - 05:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0HARRIER: The fact that our university belongs to the state, it does not mean that all the professors can't be independent with their opinions, this is evident that you have no idea about what a university is, or unless you dont know how the u.b.a. works, beside, what part you dont understand that i will search another professor but from a private university because i need to heard diferent voices?, your point of view just show that you have a recalcitrant and dopey mind.
Keep on thinking whatever you want, your haughtyness and your ignorance only prejudices you, it does not worth to debate with some one like you, who thinks that only hes truth is valid.
ZETHE: Why dont you read about international right, instead of parroting all the crap that you say all the time?.
Beside, anyone can think whatever he want about the context of 1982, and the actual context, you can keep on laughing if you want, in the same way that i laugh of your ignorance.
Axel, you said: “My survey includes evidences of our rights, that belong to the period before of 1833, specially during colonial times.”
Jul 02nd, 2010 - 09:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0How can you derive any rights from colonial times? You inherited nothing from the Spanish...
And regarding the UBA, how many of the professors there have said in public that the Falklands should remain British?
J. A. ROBERT:
Jul 03rd, 2010 - 12:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0I can't believe how pathetic you are, obviously i have no idea about how many professors from u.b.a. said in public that the malvinas should remain british, i dont even care, that's absolutly irrelevant, beside, what part you dont understand that i will search others experts, but from private universitys, because i need to hear diferent opinions, i told you that the line of my survey is not anti british, i just want to stablish the rights of both nations in the islands, because i have objetivity, that's something that you, and many of countrymen dont have .
My investigation is really plural, and much better tham that ridiculous and mendacious document that you like to praise all the time.
For the last time, why dont you wait to read my survey, before prejudging as usuall, i am talking to expert people who knows much more tham you and i, if you prefer to understimate what they say, that's your problem.
Beside, i base my arguments in the assertions of british experts, who i included in my investigation, you will read them, and after you'll get your conclutions, anyway i'm almost sure that you will allways reject what i say, notwithstanding i talk to 20 experts in international right.
AXEL HERRERA REYES.
There was once a time when I was referred to as an 'expert' .... it is a weighty title ...... and draws attention to every mistake or inaccuracy. Experts give opinions ... nothing more and there's usually another expert around the corner holding the opposite view. Expert opinion is 'fact' right up until the next expert arrives. Such is the world of old spurts.
Jul 03rd, 2010 - 01:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0HOYTRED:
Jul 03rd, 2010 - 02:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are right, experts have diferent points of view, but there is a consensus, betwen all of them about some basic issues, that's why it's allways so important to hear their opinions, they have a deep knowleadge about territorial disputes, anyway you have to hear diferent points of view, and after you get your conclutions, that's exactly what i am doing, i think we dont have to hear only what is convenient to our ideological posture, if we can't be objetive, if we have intransient, we can't discuss about absolutly anything.
AXEL HERRERA REYES.
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