MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Argentina will limit farm land holdings and purchases by foreigners
Argentina said on Wednesday it will restrict foreign ownership of farmland. President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner made the announcement during a televised speech at Government House saying she was sending a bill to Congress which will cap land ownership for foreigners. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesAbout time... I'd say 1,000 hectares is too much.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 03:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0So, the K's have not only recovered much of the Argentine infrastructure but have implement the most basic and vital law a country could have... a law to limit foreign purchase of land, our soil, our home.
I'm sure the bill will pass... who in its right mind would oppose it?
Again, lets hear it from the anti-K's ;-)
Agree, is about time.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 04:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Martin, I already can read from our friend Geoward:
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0Oh nooo Martin no no nooo this is Socialism!..lol
I'd like to hear what xbarilox has to say... his mind is only on one thing, trashing CFK.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0So come on xbarilox, talk some trash...
http://www.forestpeoples.org/topics/rights-land-natural-resources/news/2010/11/argentina-indigenous-peoples-forcibly-evicted-thei
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.forestpeoples.org/topics/rights-land-natural-resources/news/2010/11/argentina-indigenous-peoples-forcibly-evicted-thei
The demonstrators are demanding that the governor of Chaco, Roy Nikisch, meet with them and respond to their charges about irregular sales of public land to large farmers and agribusiness interests, which they claim have been taking place for a decade, instead of transferring the land to indigenous communities and other poor farmers, as stipulated in the provincial constitution.
Further evidence (as if we needed any) that nationalism is a psychopathology. Madam President, you need to seek professional help. Limiting foreign ownership of land in 2011 is ridiculous. By the way, Martin_Fierro, don't you live in Utah? Would you be OK with the state and/or Federal government enacting a bill that forbids you from owning property there?
Apr 28th, 2011 - 06:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Here is the primitive politicians intelligence sample !
Apr 28th, 2011 - 09:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0very easy to pass this bill by ... how ?
A man who has large family members , friends ,..folks ..
each can purchase a limited farmland....oneday decide to
forming a (collectively) agro company...as simple !
is this, in any way, going to conflict with Thompkins Lands in the south? I mean, he is not having “farmland” down there, but forests and a park.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 11:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Robert Mugabe tried something similar - look where it got him.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Limiting foreign ownership of land in 2011 is ridiculous”
Apr 28th, 2011 - 01:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ridiculous why? Because this is the age of globalization? Don't be silly, since the 2008 crisis every state in the world has increased government interference in the economy. That often happens after every big financial and economic crisis. See the Great Depression and how Keynesianism and other government-centered economic theories - fascism, for example - became widespread during the 30s. No one believes this globalization silliness anymore. China, for example. China limits not only land purchases by foreigners but also foreign investment in its the mining sector. It has also enforced a series of constraints to multinationals based in China - forced technology transfer from foreign to domestic businesses, market reserves - to boost national production. Japan and South Korea implemented very similar policies in their path to development in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. And this is not a matter of nationalism only, but also of development - no nation has ever attained development by applying free markets, anti-nationalist claptrap that was widely embraced in the West during the 90s.
Yes and No. It will depend on its strategic value to the Nation, otherwise I would not have a problem , maybe with a limit as to how much a foreigner can purchase?
Apr 28th, 2011 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So much for “open your f@cking markets”.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 03:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You bunch of hypocrites.
@12
Apr 28th, 2011 - 03:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That is precisely what the US and the EU demand from the developing world and which they themselves refuse to do. The only hypocrisy is that of your countries. As for CFK, she never hid her preference for a state-managed economy. She and her late husband have been called anti-business for years.
Most countries around the world have these type of laws in place. It's nothing new.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0so why the controversy?
Apr 28th, 2011 - 03:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So much for “open your f@cking markets”.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 03:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It never really existed you clown. It's not Free markets for the people, it's free markets for the corporations to eliminate competition.
Global free market=Primitive trade comes from the Communist Manifesto.
artillero601 (#)15
Apr 28th, 2011 - 03:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There should be no controversy. Most people here are just spewing their personal rhetoric, including CFK in her election year.
@ 17 Gotcha ! Should we be talking about William & Kate instead? .....lol!
Apr 28th, 2011 - 04:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0William & Kate instead? .....lol!
Apr 28th, 2011 - 04:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How much is the wedding going to cost the poor British peasants?
I'm sure they enjoy their free day off, untill they have a free day when austerity measures will be imposed upon them.
@18
Apr 28th, 2011 - 04:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0...sorry, I don't have the least interest in William & Kate. Nor, are they what this article is about. Try again.
14 ptolemy
Apr 28th, 2011 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Most countries around the world have these type of laws in place. It's nothing new
Yes, we do; not a law but a policy. The Argentines are always complaining about that and think they should be able to buy up the Falkland Islands. Perhaps we won't hear any more about that.
@ 20 ptolemy
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I was trying to tone down the rhetoric .....
#22
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry,..acknowledged.
@23 It seems that everybody is in red alert lately .... A friend of mine posted this on my facebook account this morning ...
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”The ribbons seem to be a very effective message. Pink for breast cancer, yellow for our troops, etc. What I propose is that we all wear a brown ribbon the rest of the week meaning I don't give a shit about the royal wedding.
I am zero at Economy , would you explain us the finance sources of this zany wedding ...
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 01)-- from taxpayers ( UK) money ?
2)-- from Chinese borrowing ?
3)-- from Oil Sheiks money ?
4)-- from Russian Oligarch money ?
5)-- from Desire Petroleum revenues ?
6 Dan4,
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't give two shits about Utah... I wouldn't want to buy 2 hectares here let alone 1000.
“limiting foreign ownership of land in 2011 is ridiculous”
10 Forgetit87,
“Ridiculous why?”
Dan is gone... : P
Bottom line, CFK is doing what other governments were too inept to do.
That's it.
@25 this should cover the hire of the hall and the DJ
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-1381459/Royal-Wedding-2011-tourism-boost-London-visitors-spend-50m-Friday.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
@ 26 .. You as a mormom should care ......lol!!!
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0lol... I'm not, how many times do I have to tell you that?
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As many as it takes bro !!!
Apr 28th, 2011 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I like how the Brits criticize us for living in the US, because there are no Brits living abroad...?
Apr 28th, 2011 - 06:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0lol
Watch out artillero, we're dealing with an elite force here, we're no match for them... Dan4 being their leader.
Going back to the Utah thing .... I understand Miami (lots of Argentines there), New York , same thing, Los Angeles !! (huge population of argentinos) , Texas (some, not a lot) but Utah ?????? wtf?????
Apr 28th, 2011 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, we're not going back to the Utah thing.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0lol
Kidding... I like the cold.
That's ok, if you want a lot of wives , that's the place to be... what's the name of the compound anyways? .....lol!!!
Apr 28th, 2011 - 06:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No idea...
Apr 28th, 2011 - 06:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You know... all those places you mentioned are fun to visit but not to live.
why is that?
Apr 28th, 2011 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I've been to all of them, NY... fun but too crowded and the people are shit. LA, I'd live in San Francisco but not LA... same as NY without the fun, haha... and FL is just too humid, the only place I liked was Tampa, nice... and bearable in the 'winter'.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well if you want the hot weather come over .... yesterday it was 101 ....
Apr 28th, 2011 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 016 “it never really existed you clown”
Apr 28th, 2011 - 06:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Go play with yourself you fool.
Go play with yourself you fool.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 06:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0as how you play with yourself? Ewwww, disgusting ugly brit with bad teeth. Go screw your German Queen and do your homework about “Free Trade”.
@40 ....
Apr 28th, 2011 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Go play with yourself = Masturbation , which by the way in a recent study helps with the “ Heavy Leg Syndrome” or any orgasm of any kind..... just FYI
41...
Apr 28th, 2011 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Or, a girlfriend... lol
Just a thought...
#40 / Nick !.....same idea !!
Apr 28th, 2011 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@42 BUT ! if you are Gendarme in the middle of nowhere with a need? Any Vicuña, Alpaca, Guanaco, LLama would be ok ......lol!!!
Apr 28th, 2011 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So, back to the article.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 07:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm still waiting for Dan4's response to Forgetit87's question on #10...
Dan4: “Limiting foreign ownership of land in 2011 is ridiculous”
“Ridiculous why?”
I guess it would be an unfair question for a Brit, how would they even grasp the concept when they live in a country that is five blocks across, where the sun hardly ever shines...? Who would want to buy land in the UK and how much land would you be able to buy?
Argentina, however... is HUGE and mostly uninhabited, and if you drop a seed in the Pampas three weeks later you have a forest.
This world is overcrowded and quickly running out of resources, these laws are necessary to ensure that Argentina remains available for Argentines FIRST, that should be the governments #1 priority.
Clearly no other government gave a shit before.
You hear that xbarilox??? NO OTHER GOVERNMENT GAVE A SHIT...
;-)
@ 4 wow you've been thinking of me, thank you. Trash Cristina? She's trashing herself. It's so funny that you say how great she is and how great her government is when you are NOT living in ARGENTINA! YOU F*CKING SOB! ¿Por qué no te venís a vivir a Buenos Aires cola rota?
Apr 28th, 2011 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0¿En lugar de hablar y hablar al pedo desde el imperio? ¿Te gustan los dólares no? Perdedor. Buenos Aires is the new Bolivia, Bolivians, Paraguayans and narcos are taking over Buenos Aires, Tucumán, Santiago del Estero, Salta, Jujuy, and CFK says she wants to protect our land hahaha What about changing a school's name from Gral. Roca to Arbolito? If she wants to do things right, she should start by giving to Chileans everything that Gral. Roca stole from them, that too would be protecting our lands, Gral. Roca was a bad guy, well then let's give Chileans back their lands and stop playing the nationalist and the defender of our lands what a joke. Thanx to guys like Roca CFK can enjoy Santa Cruz and the Perito Moreno and her properties down there in Patagonia. But if she really wants to do the right thing, then let's give Bolivians what belongs to them, to Paraguay and Chile too, that would be justice. Call me a traitor, I don't care, I tell the truth, Argentina would be only 50 % of what is now if we should give back land to the rightful owners, if we're saying that British stole our land, we did that too to Bolivia, Paraguay and Chile. I would really like to see what this woman would do if that happens. Wouldn't you agree with me Martin Fierro? This woman should keep her mouth shut.
“Argentina will limit farm land holdings and purchases by foreigners” Argentina? It's Cristina not Argentina.
Come on Cristina !
Apr 28th, 2011 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0send a bill to Congress to deport Monsanto & Cargill !
You able to...you able to....why not !!
to deport Monsanto & Cargill? They are her friedns! IMBECILE! What a joke this Argentine yul saying he's German hahaha. JEROPA!
Apr 28th, 2011 - 08:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(#) 47 ....
Apr 28th, 2011 - 08:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Cristina Kirchner is Peruvian originated not originally Argentine !
46 xbarilox,
Apr 28th, 2011 - 08:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If she wants to do things right, she should start by giving to Chileans everything that Gral. Roca stole from them...”
Gotcha... ;-)
No need to read the rest, xbarilox is obviously a Chilean with deep resentments towards Argentina, nothing new... nothing worth wasting time on.
Moving on.
Here is the speech.
Proyecto ley protección del dominio nacional de tierras rurales. / Protection Act - national domain of rural lands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWBEi8x_UXM
Time index 03:45
“Tenemos un profundo déficit de información acerca de cual es el estado dominiál de nuestras tierras rurales.”
We have a profound lack of information regarding the ownership status of our rural lands.
Time index 05:25
“También debo aclarar, esto no afectara los derechos ya adquiridos, esto también quiero que quede absolutamente claro porque sino significaría cambiar las reglas de juego y perjudicar a aquellos que adquirieron de buena fe, con reglas que estaban vigentes a ese momento y esto hablaría de un país poco serio.”
I must also clarify, this will not affect rights already acquired, I also want to make this perfectly clear because otherwise it would mean changing the rules of the game and harming those who acquired land in good faith, abiding by laws that were current at the time and this would speak of a country that is not serious.
“Esto aún, cuando resulte del catastro que hay mas de un veinte por ciento no va a afectar a aquellos que adquirieron sus derechos legítimamente porque queremos ser eso, un país normal, un país serio. Pero un país normal y un país serio, defiende, cuida y protege su patrimonio nacional.”
This, even when the census results are in, which will surely result in more than twenty percent [of ownership by foreign entities] will not affect those who acquired rights of ownership legitimately because we want to be a normal country, a serious country. But a country that is normal and serious, defends and protects its national patrimony.
This is “socialism” at its best! In what world is she living in? Hasn't she heard about “foreign direct investment” and how can be helpful to the economy? .....when managed proprely!
Apr 28th, 2011 - 09:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 03 Fido Dido,
Apr 28th, 2011 - 09:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Martin, I already can read from our friend Geoward: Oh nooo Martin no no nooo this is Socialism!..lol”
atk357 beat him to it...
haha
Argentina, however... is HUGE and mostly uninhabited, and if you drop a seed in the Pampas three weeks later you have a forest.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 09:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But you want the Tiny Falklands
Then again maybe your land aint so fertile
DESERTIFICATION IN CENTRAL ARGENTINA: CHANGES IN ECOSYSTEM
CARBON AND NITROGEN FROM IMAGING SPECTROSCOPY
http://personal.cricyt.edu.ar/rojeda/asner_etal_ea_2003.pdf
@atk357
Apr 28th, 2011 - 09:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ever thought of teaching economics to the Chinese? I've heard their government is incompetent and their country is one of the slowest growing in the world.
53,
Apr 28th, 2011 - 09:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0lol..
He searched the crap out of google and all he came up with was a pdf from 2003 on ”arid and semiarid (dryland) regions”.
That just proves my point… the Brits can't comprehend how big Argentina is and what that means.
Good job 'stick', now find me a similar report on Pampas Humedas.
He'll come back with a report on the salt flats in Salta and Jujuy.
That just proves my point… the Brits can't comprehend how big Argentina is and what that means.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 10:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It means, you allow your own people to starve
Dying from hunger in food-exporting Argentina
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12973543
Hm... touching.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 10:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Locals depend on government help, but that is not always enough.”
If I sit on my ass and wait for government help I'll starve too.
You'll find the same type of people in Buenos Aires, but they have 15 million people to steal from... so, no problem there.
If I sit on my ass I'll starve too
Apr 28th, 2011 - 10:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0so thats how you make your living :-))))
What's the matter? Did you run out of bullshit articles?
Apr 28th, 2011 - 10:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thought you might be interested, it being your line of work and all
Apr 28th, 2011 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://buenosaires.queercity.info/bLOG/archive/2005_06_01_archive.html
So, waiting for government help is ok because there are gay people in Buenos Aires...
Apr 28th, 2011 - 10:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is that what you're saying?
In other words you can't 'stick' with even one statement, you have to divert attention immediately afterwards.
Why even bother to post garbage 'stick'? Seriously...
Martin is a bit grumpy,must of had a hard day at the orifice :-)
Apr 28th, 2011 - 10:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm fine 'stick'... I'm just trying to understand what you're saying, it makes no sense.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 11:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What does waiting for government help have to do with gay people?
jees you are hard work dilly boy
Apr 28th, 2011 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's it then?
Apr 28th, 2011 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0lol
No way to explain why you post what you post... why are you wasting my time then?
No way to explain why you post what you post... why are you wasting my time then?
Apr 28th, 2011 - 11:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Keeping you off the streets martin my lad
Do you drink 'stick'? Because I'm beginning to see a pattern here.
Apr 28th, 2011 - 11:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Very few of you are actually able to stay within the context and withstand debate, it seems like it is nearly impossible for you.
Is drinking a big problem in the islands?
Man!!, I leave the computer for a minute and look what happened !!
Apr 28th, 2011 - 11:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0haha... 'stick' was having a drink and lost it...
Apr 28th, 2011 - 11:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Moving on...
Back to the article and Cristina Fernández de Kirchner's speech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWBEi8x_UXM
Time index 24:18
“Fiat, anunciando una inversión en la Argentina, porque los Argentinos estábamos importando tractores y sembradoras, es como si importáramos soja. Realmente no tiene sentido, por eso también vamos a seguir muy firmemente comprometidos en una política de protección al desarrollo y del trabajo de la industria nacional porque está en nuestro ADN.
Fiat has announced an investment in Argentina, because Argentina was importing tractors and planters, it's as if we were importing soy. It really makes no sense, for that reason we will continue our commitment to a policy of protection towards development of our national industry, because it's in our DNA.
___________________________________________________
I posted a comment on a different article in regards to import restrictions in Argentina.
I said ”Is this imports restriction really a drastic measure or simply a normalization? Argentina imported too much and produced too little.”
Argentina importing tractors... if that isn't evidence of over-importing I don't know what is.
Forgetit87, Martin_Fierro:
Apr 29th, 2011 - 06:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0It is ridiculous to limit foreign ownership of land (or any other resource/production factor) because there is no proven correlation whatsoever between the nationality of the owner and the effect of said ownership on the economy.
I'm not denying the need for regulation that Forgetit87 referred to, but basing that regulation on nationality makes no sense. The Wall-Streeters that plunked the US into the latest recession weren't Swedish or Guatemalan, but mostly Americans. The land-owners that have historically evaded billions in taxes in Argentina are not Japanese or Australians, but predominantly Argentinean. Assuming that nationality equals patriotism is irrational. There is no guarantee, none whatsoever, that the Argies that get to own 80%+ of the land under this law will screw Argentina over any less often than foreign land owners. Look at the country's history, for heaven's sake. Most of the abuses against the general welfare of Argentina have been committed by (surprise, surprise!) Argentineans.
Limiting asset ownership at a time when trade flows grow at a much faster clip that average GDP is nonsense. Moreover, countries that tried that approach suffered negative consequences on all the major economic indicators. I don't expect you to take my word for it, it will take you 2 minutes online to find countless peer-reviewed research papers on the topic. My position is not based on ideology, but on empirically verifiable facts. I'm a researcher by training and that's the basis of what I do for a living. As such, I only have opinions that can be backed up by hard data.
It may be a lot cooler to feed and trade on rhetoric, but the result of ignoring data is usually terrible policies that end up hurting precisely the most defenseless in each society.
P.S. Martin_Fierro, it doesn't really matter whether you'd LIKE to buy land in Utah. What matters is that you CAN decide whether you want to or not. Being able to CHOOSE freely matters.
40 What can one say. In your excited state you appear to have forgotten how to make sense. You greasy “fidodido” piece of excrement.
Apr 29th, 2011 - 11:52 am - Link - Report abuse 070,
Apr 29th, 2011 - 03:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ownership rights to foreign investors need to be granted on a case by case basis. Areas rich in natural resources should not be transferred to foreign entities, whether their intention is to exploit it or not.
There is no regulation of how much or for how much these lands are being sold, or which lands are being sold and for what purpose.
I don't agree with you at all, never will. And this bill will pass, so I really couldn't care less what you have to say about it.
Brutish Turnips.....
Apr 29th, 2011 - 05:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Educate yourselves:
http://www.openaustralia.org/debate/?id=2011-02-21.214.1
www.openaustralia.org/debate/?id=2011-02-21.214.1
Apr 29th, 2011 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”Andrew Leigh (Fraser, Australian Labor Party):
An iron law of populism is that, while Australian businesspeople investing abroad are portrayed as job-creating entrepreneurs, foreign investors in our country are depicted as rapacious robber barons. And so it is with the latest campaign against foreign investment. As sometimes happens, the campaign started in the tabloids. Under headlines such as ‘Chinese buying up our farms’, ‘It’s time to stop selling off the farm’, and ‘It’s time to save our farms from foreign investors’, News Ltd tabloids have recently embarked upon a fear campaign against foreign investment in Australian agriculture. With anecdotes taking the place of statistics, foreign investment has been described by the tabloids as ‘a dramatic global land grab’, fed by ‘a looming global food shortage'.” I couldn't have said it better myself.
While those people are investing in our country, Bolivians, Paraguayans, Venezuelans, are taking our land without paying a single penny. The poorer and ignorant Argentines are, the better for Cristina de Kirchner. Argentina has a future, all other countries are envious because of these measures taken by Cristina. Should we cry or should we laugh? Another four years of Cristina and this is the future for more and more Argentines:
http://www.taringa.net/posts/noticias/9607484/Cristina-Kirchner---Capitanich-2011.html
Capitanich=Insfrán=Cristina=Néstor and the list goes on and on and on
The Dollar lovers Martin Fierro, and others from the USA happily tell us how great this government is, and we're supposed to joyfully agree with them. Nice :)
Everybody... meet xbarilox the “Argentine” who wishes to give land away to Chile.
Apr 29th, 2011 - 08:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The fact that you're a Chilean with deep resentments towards Argentina renders all your comments worthless, precisely because of your motivation for making such comments.
And if you wish to go on about where I live is probably because you're either too young or too stupid to understand that sometimes we make decisions for other people. It doesn't matter where I live, I know what I am and unlike you I don't lie about it.
And now I don't even care to make distinctions between present and past governments, not with an idiot with a grudge who lies about who he is. He would bitch about Argentina no matter who was in charge, notice he never says a word about who he thinks should be in charge.
Isn't that right? Chilean.
My whole support to Martin Fierro above.
Apr 29th, 2011 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0BUT I recommend both to read an enlightening report (an official paper recognized by both Argentina and Chile, a university paper) done by a Researcher and Professor of History at CONICET Argentina. He submitted his paper by request of authorities in both countries.
EL AUTOR se instaló tres años en Chile y realizó una tesis doctoral en la Universidad de Santiago, dirigida por el profesor chileno Joaquín Fermandois, profesor titular de la Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile. La tesis fue evaluada por un tribunal compuesto por un inglés y tres chilenos: el doctor Ian Thomson (CEPAL); la doctora Carmen Norambuena Carrasco, directora del Instituto de Estudios Avanzados de la Universidad de Santiago; el doctor Iván Witker, director de la Mención Relaciones Internacionales del Doctorado de dicha universidad y funcionario del Ministerio del Interior del Gobierno de Chile, y el mencionado doctor Fermandois. La tesis fue aprobada por unanimidad, y en el momento de comunicar su resultado, el decano de la Facultad de Humanidades de la Universidad de Santiago señaló que la misma “marca un hito en nuestra historia nacional”. Además, adelantó que la citada facultad se iba a ocupar de la publicación de dicha tesis, compromiso que se cumplirá tal vez hacia fines de este año2.
La tesis demostró que el Tratado de Límites firmado por Argentina y Chile en 1881 y los tratados posteriores (incluyendo el laudo del Beagle) se ajustaron al principio de Uti Possidetis Iuris de 1810.
here is the title of the book and the ISBN: • Lacoste, Pablo (2002). «La Guerra de los mapas entre Argentina y Chile: una mirada desde Chile». Historia 35 ( ). ISSN 0717-7194.
Conclusion Mr Chilean Xbarilox: The Treaty of 1881 and the current limits between Argentina and Chile are perfectly FAIR and do justice to both countries. READ the Tesis/Paper on the net; Chile never had a right to the Eastern Patagonia and Argentina never had rights to Western Patagonia.
Gotey, calling me a Chilean because I don't say what you want is very original. It's like supporting that fake goal of Diego Armando Maradona just because it was against England lol Nope, Geoty, I don't buy your stuff :)
Apr 29th, 2011 - 10:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@Dan4
Apr 29th, 2011 - 10:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not restricting foreign acquisition of land may in the future represent a threat to a country's sovereignty and also to its development plans. That's why China restricts foreign investment in its mining sector - because it doesn't want its mineral assets - for instance, rare earth metals - being used to finance development overseas. Considering current global trends - ever growing demand for food and higher food prices - no doubt there are going to be attempts by foreign states to get a foothold in countries that are resource rich or have a vast area of fertile land. Last year, a Saudi Arabia commission composed of both government officials and businessmen visited South America with the aim of getting permission to acquire land from which to export foodstuff (it seems Saudi Arabia is trying to diversify its export portfolio). Fortunately they weren't successful. But other states are going to try that, too - and sometimes, not in as naïve a manner as Saudi Arabia's. China, for example, might try to acquire assets in South America and in other regions through state-owned enterprises posing as investors or yet private Chinese enterprises who are in some way financially obliged to their government.
And you're wrong - domestic ownership of businesses and foreign ownership do produce different effects in the economy. Domestic businesses keep money where it was earned, and this money will either be invested in the country or it will be put into bank accounts, in which case the country's savings ratio goes up and more investment can be made without having to resort to foreign capital. Foreign-owned businesses, on the other hand, send their profits to their headquarters in other countries. This decreases the current account surplus in the home country and deprives it from more investment.
Thank you Gotey, very interesting.
Apr 29th, 2011 - 10:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I suspect xbarilox will never admit to being Chilean.
Anyhow, things are settled now and there are no hypothesis of conflict or disputes of any kind between Argentina and Chile. There haven't been any disputes since 1984 and the Treaty of Peace and Friendship and that's how it will stay.
There is however ignorance, on both sides regarding this issue. Look no further than xbarilox and Sergio Vega's comments for reference. Sergio is from Chile and calls Malvinas “the Falklands” (no need to explain why).
I tried to reason with Sergio and got nowhere... he's stuck back in 1978, a time when both our countries were ruled by military dictatorships.
Look at comments #38, #39, #71 and #72, and tell me what you think.
http://en.mercopress.com/2011/04/22/chilean-army-clearing-antitank-and-antipersonnel-mine-fields-in-tierra-del-fuego#comment46239
I have absolutely nothing against the people of Chile, a few misguided comments will not change my views.
Martin, I have had enough discussions with barilox, and what is for sure, he's not a chilean countryman of mine. I though that Chile had sometimes an excessive intolerance to people which think different than the mainstream (for example chileans wanting to give a sovreign path to Bolivia towards the sea). But I am surprised by seeing this topped out in Argentina, regarding people who are not “in line” regarding some state doctrines, like Malvinas and Patagonia.
Apr 30th, 2011 - 12:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0By the way, I am not a defender of the idea, that whole patagonia rightfully belongs to Chile, because the chronological track for this land and the “leyes de india” is far to complex to simply state this. The spanish “Leyes de india” shows, that whole Patagonia was periodically ruled by Chile AND in another period also completely ruled by the Vireinato de la Plata. Thats according to the spanish, so far. Fact is, no matter what the spanish said, Patagonia was never conquered completely during colony times. It was conquered by Chile and Argentina in a kind of race, which in first instance was won by Chile being the first ones to settle on Magallanes, but then lost pace due to the war of the pacific and military concentration in the north, losing the focus on the south.
80,
Apr 30th, 2011 - 01:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Read post #46 and draw your own conclusions, I drew mine pretty quickly and without much doubt. He is anything but Argentine. And if he is he's got quite a nerve criticizing me for not living in Argentina when he would gladly give away half the country.
You know ManRod, if living abroad has taught me anything is that our perception, both Argentine and Chilean is somewhat limited. Admittedly I have lost touch with many things, but at the same time I have gained a clearer view of the big picture. When you're in it, in the small details, the rumors, the incidents... you develop a prejudicial, intransigent mentality... this intolerance you're speaking of, and you forget that in the big picture you find what matters most, our future. In the big picture you find the world, a world that is constantly looking for natural resources to sustain itself, 'some' will go to great lengths to acquire these resources... and while we argue about Patagonia or 1978, or who did what 200 years ago, they keep looking.
A friend of mine, from Argentina... was telling me about an incident in which 'some Chileans set a field on fire' in Argentina. I said when did this happen? Who did it? No information, she had no idea. Someone told her and she passed it along. I finally told her... 'you know what? don't tell me this shit'.
In reality Argentina and Chile have come a long way since the 70's, we patrol the Beagle Channel and the Antarctic together, and we stood up against the UK together when they tried to claim even more of Antarctica, the only remaining dispute (for lack of a better word) between Argentina and Chile. I've said it before, and I still think Argentina and Chile should agree on a joint sovereignty of our Antarctic sector, we BOTH have just as much rights to it. (certainly NOT the UK)
VIVA ARGENTINA & VIVA CHILE
Well said, Martin!
Apr 30th, 2011 - 03:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0I think the same regarding having a broader perspective when you are out and when you really listen to people from other countries and then doing research for real over time it helps you see things in a different light.
For all Argentines and for all Chileans, I think, all matters of conflict are definitely over and done with for good. Besides, I have some friends, born of Chilean parents who live here and travel back to visit relatives in Chile. The western side of Argentina and as of very recent times, all of Argentina looks to develop much stronger ties with all neighbors, Chile and Brazil being priorities. I personally consider most Chileans my friends now except those who still live back in the old days. WE MUST WORK TOGETHER, we must help each other. Example: there are some wine businessmen from both sides who have decided to sell their wines as being from binational Andes wines, blending the best of both sides. And they´ve been successful. We need more of that. We need for example a tunnel thru the mountains to link Chile´s ports with the Atlantic ports both in Brazil and Argentina. We need to set up more businesses and megainfra-structures for the businesses.... there´s so much to be done.
The so called A, B, C nations in South America should work together. Not working together is exactly what those ugly Brits with bad teeth and their EU scammer friends wants. It's part of their divide and conquer strategy. Oh in Europe, you can only trust the Dutch :D.
Apr 30th, 2011 - 05:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0haha Fido, I'll keep that in mind, long live the Dutch
Apr 30th, 2011 - 06:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well put Gotey...
Martin_Fierro (Comment #72) & Forgetit87 (Comment #78):
Apr 30th, 2011 - 08:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0A foreign individual or company that buys land in Argentina is subjected to Argentinean laws after the purchase, regardless of the nationality of the buyer. That is why claiming that foreign purchases constitute a threat of any kind, and as such should be restricted, is ridiculous and denotes utter ignorance in the fields of International Law (a.k.a. Derecho Internacional Publico) and Conflict of Law (a.k.a. Derecho Internacional Privado).
This is a “Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt” situation with both of you, as you seem to have made up your minds and unwilling to change your position in spite of the facts and logical consistency.
If that's the case, feel free you continue enjoying your paranoia and conspiratorial delusions.
Oh in Europe, you can only trust the Dutch :D.
Apr 30th, 2011 - 08:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0The people of Srebrenica may not agree
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1933144.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1933144.stm
Here is the link to the Guerra de los mapas.
Apr 30th, 2011 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Link to Guerra de los mapas Arg-Chi
http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0717-71942002003500009&lng=es&nrm=iso
“LA GUERRA DE LOS MAPAS ENTRE ARGENTINA Y CHILE:
Apr 30th, 2011 - 06:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0UNA MIRADA DESDE CHILE
ABSTRACT
Through schools, newspapers, and military quarters from Argentina and Chile, it is taught that the neighbor country is always the expansionist and lands robber one.
To argentinians, all lands to the south of the Bío-Bío belonged to Río de la Platas Viceroyalty, and therefore, they should be now argentinian; to chileans, the Patagonia/would have been owned by Chile until the 1881s Treaty, which Chile/would have signed under pressure, since the Pacific War was taking place at that moment.
This article shows that both positions are untrue, since some documents, antecedents and royal dispositions havent been taken into consideration by these two countries; antecedents showing new information which supports the opponent positions.
Serious mistakes are described and explained through new documentary evidence, mistakes which are already standardized in both, argentinians and chileans historiography.” I couldn't have said it better myself. So, basically, we are liars. Thanx to this government I have learned that Sarmiento was sh*t, Rosas was sh*t, Juan Bautista Alberdi was sh*t, Belgrano and San Martín were not what teachers taught us, and the list goes on and on.
”Serious mistakes (lies) are described and explained through new documentary evidence, mistakes (lies) which are already standardized in both, argentinians and chileans historiography.” Were you trying to fall yourself into a grave? Because that's what you just did, you dig a grave and then you fall into it lol
Lets cut to it xbarilox...
Apr 30th, 2011 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What do you stand for? Which side are you on? Who do you think should run Argentina?
Do you know? Or are you here just to talk shit for no reason?
From this moment on and by the grace of Néstor and Cristina I know that Ernesto Sábato was also a f*cking piece of sh*t. It feels so great to know that all your countrie's history you've been taught is built on lies. All the teachings are lies. Who can tell me then, after years and years of eating lies that “Las Islas Malvinas son Argentinas” isn't a lie too? In this country everything is a f*cking lie! Let's make José Pablo Feinmann's dream come true, he wants to change the sun in our flag and replace it with a nappy (that white thing that mothers and grandmothers of plaza de mayo wear on their heads.) This week has got to be the worst week of all weeks for me, tons of lies I have been told, and this week, thanx again to Cristina and the precious soul of Néstor (pun intended), all those lies are finally showing to me her real face. Don't ask, don't teel, right? Believe everything you're told, but don't ask questions, right?
Apr 30th, 2011 - 10:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Exactly what I thought, you're nothing but an idiot.
May 01st, 2011 - 01:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0Dont worry about Xbarilox, Martin... he is out of this world, maybe he comes from planet Mercury, from the dark side which never faces the sun, ha,ha,ha.
May 01st, 2011 - 04:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Of course, reading his comments have made rush to the toilet and puke like hell!
To all others, except for the Alien being Xbarilox, have a happy May 1st - Labor Day in Argentina tommorrow. May God help us all
Most of Chileans are fine people and good neighbors, unfurnately Sergio Vega hates Argentina because his used Land Rover business with Malvinas is dead, but at least he doesn't hide his nationaly, however xbarilox cancel his Twitter account to hide his.
May 01st, 2011 - 08:13 am - Link - Report abuse 016 xbarilox (#)
Oct 13th, 2010 - 04:56 pm
@ Marcos Alejandro #11
Did you read my tweets? lol, THANK YOU DEAR! I'm becoming famous though I'm a social outcast roflol. Being serious, I opened an account with this same nick, because I have nothing to hide. But I don't have a Twitter account anymore.
I'm an Argie, I like being an Argie, I don't get upset when people call me an Argie, it's nice. I don't hide my nationality, I don't have to. I'm thankful to God for being who I am, I've done nothing wrong.”
:-))))))))
well well well!! as an Argentine I must say, I am bery bery bery !!!!!happy and admire what Chritina Kirchner is doing for Argentina, all Argentine's should support her laws to protect Argentina from pirats, perverts, murderers and thieves, if they are not Argentione's send them back home emnty handed, we know bery well what UN is allowing british to do with our land in Islas Malvinas, the world doesn't respect our land we sure don't need to respect their BS, maybe when the british illegal aliens in Malvinas Argentina leave the occupyed territory we will let them have land again, untill then let them come here to cry their pains to us, they think because we understand tango we like cry baby's, far from it.
May 01st, 2011 - 09:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0Martin Fierro regarding post # 84, I fully can track what you mean by this, as I am in a similar position, but in Europe. We are able to see the deficits in the argumentation of our co-nationals, because with geographical distance, we gain some objectivity and might be less emotionally impacted by some old-fashioned nationalistic dogmas still alive down there . It is true, that positions between our countries have strengthen alot during last years, though I see that rather between the population of both coutries than rather politics, that constantly works counterproductive, even they dont't mean to. And I do not mean this in the typical way many socialistically oriented say ( I am not too fond of these “hermandad” pamphlets and bs spread arround, because they are often very hypocrite) , but rather in the practical way. Every year, more and more Argentinians and Chileans get curious about the country over the andes, due to turism or comercial relations, and they want to see themselves, if all the rumors spreak are really true or not, and often they are surprised.
May 01st, 2011 - 01:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(95) Manrod
May 01st, 2011 - 01:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Finally............., after a series of derogatory comments against Argentina based on our military regimes faked distrust for each other during the 70’s and the 80’s you decide to make a mature 2011 commentary.
Welcome to our present …………….
Fido #3, Martin #52,
May 01st, 2011 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0just read back through this old thread - I find you are anticipating a contribution frm me! How nice :)
I thought it unnecessary because I have posted on this topic many times and supported the tight control of land sales to foreign countries and overseas corporations.
About a year ago I powerfully criticised the free and easy way SA countries were allowing Chinese national/private companies to buy up land all over the continent.
It is happening apace all over the world but particularly in SA and Africa.
As a model, Brasil has a reasonable set of controls in place now (at last) but there are still many ways companies and people can circumvent them - and there is always the availability of corrupt agreements between federal, state, local administrators and the foreign parties.
Restricting control of land sale agreements to the giant fazendas leaves a lot of scope for abundant small-scale land sales.
Restricting it to a percentage (25%) of the acreage of local administrative units helps.
But the size of units varies around the country and the percentage is frequently a local decision.
And the foreign organisation often keeps an indigenous joint owner in order to circumvent the 'overseas rule''.
95 ManRod,
May 01st, 2011 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You're probably referring to my post on 81?
93 Marcos Alejandro,
I suspect xbarilox is a Chilean living in Argentina.
“Let's make José Pablo Feinmann's dream come true, he wants to change the sun in our flag and replace it with a nappy ”
Lets all agree to put xbarilox in a reformatory school.
92 Gotey,
Amen
98 Martin_Fierro,
May 02nd, 2011 - 12:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0I suspect xbarilox is a Chilean living in Quilmes.
Argentine's 100% behind Cristina on thisone, This is why we say VOTE Cristina.
May 02nd, 2011 - 05:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0well, interesting as people's views are,if we can get back to what this thread was originally about, l have to admit that l agree with Cristina on this one. Foreigners should be limited in what they can & cannot do in one's country.
May 02nd, 2011 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0lnvestment is fine, but should be closely monitored & no foreigners should be allowed to get a stranglehold on any part of a nation's economy.
Before you dive in here Cher Think, this is our land so we are not the“foreign investors”here! just heading you off at the pass. But very enlightening at post #73 Cher Think. thank you,something to think about.
99,
May 02nd, 2011 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is what the “Argentine” xbarilox would say... (actually did say in several posts) ...'this is crap!! screw Cristina!! we should be giving half the country away and replacing the sun in our flag with a nappy!! ...and while we're at it forget about Malvinas they were never ours!!'
lol
How old is xbarilox exactly? Are you willing to tell us your real age xbarilox?
@ 102 Sos como Lilita Carrió, la adivinadora lol “and while we're at it forget about Malvinas they were never ours” so, were they? I can see now that 90% of everything I learned in school is bullsh*t, so how can I be sure if the islands were ours or not? The funniest fact is that you've learned in school the same bullsh*t as me and you repeat it time after time whithout thinking in the possibility of being wrong haha I too have been brainwashed, but at least I dare to ask questions, you don't.
May 03rd, 2011 - 12:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'm 20 years old, I live in Buenos Aires, I told you many times, but you don't read or you read what you want. and how old are you? like 60 years old? Ask yourself this question “were those islands ours?” Perhaps it's a lie, but if you only repeat las malvinas son argentinas like it's the word of God just because you don't want to be labeled a traitor, then you are a coward. I can see there's a flag down there and it's not our flag, and you can't deny this, and no matter how hard you try. What's the point of saying different? If you want to make a caricature of yourself that's fine, but don't talk to me like you're telling me a story about morality because you don't know what that means. Yo laugh at my comments, well I laugh at you because you are just a nobody who left the country when things were bad and lives a life denying something so obvious like people living in the islands since 1833!!!!
20, well your maturity level is that of a 12 year old... and you're probably just repeating what your daddy says.
May 03rd, 2011 - 01:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'm 35.
Get lost Chilean.
lts a brave Argentine that questions the party line. Keep at it Xbox, you've got your countrymen worried, cracks are appearing in their holy mantra.
May 03rd, 2011 - 07:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0“I” @ #100,
May 03rd, 2011 - 09:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Argentine's 100% behind Cristina on this one, This is why we say VOTE Cristina.”“
I think EVERYBODY is against 'selling off the family silver', if you ask them or listen to them.
It's like saying ”That's why we vote for Apple Pie and the Argentinian Way Of Life” - pure jingoism.
105,
May 03rd, 2011 - 06:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yeah Isolde, we're seriously worried about one Chilean talking shit. We're merely making fun of him.
107,
I've read enough of your John Bull crap to see just how stuck Brits really are in their archaic imperialistic past, pure denial. And you don't mind waving the flag when it's your flag so don't be a hypocrite.
@107
May 03rd, 2011 - 08:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Talking to yourself Martin?
;-)
I meant 106 not 107, that's as close as you're ever gonna get to winning an argument, enjoy it. ;-)
May 03rd, 2011 - 11:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 109 You lose your arguments all by yourself, Martín.
May 04th, 2011 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0110,
May 04th, 2011 - 01:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ok Chilean...
Do you have any other suggestions as to what we should replace the sun in our flag with? Other than the “nappy”?
The River Plate logo perhaps... or the Gerber baby food logo, since that's what you probably relate the most to.
Hmmmmmm.......
May 04th, 2011 - 02:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0The River Plate logo is not such a bad idea!
Hmmm... personally I like the Central logo much better.
May 04th, 2011 - 02:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Do you have any other suggestions as to what we should replace the sun in our flag with? Other than the “nappy”?
May 04th, 2011 - 09:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0how about a white cross on a white background,would come in handy if you were silly enough to go to war with the UK again
Ok Sticky...
May 04th, 2011 - 09:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You're just as dumb as the Chilean xbarilox but thank you for your contribution.
Martin, get bored with the “Chilean” story... you look very obsessed with this. You supposedly do not have anything against Chile according to your previous, but you call your countryman “Chilean” in a despective way, because he does not agree with your position? Mmhhh...
May 04th, 2011 - 10:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Big difference between a Chilean that does not pretend to be something else, and xbarilox, a Chilean who pretends to be Argentine.
May 04th, 2011 - 10:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sergio Vega is Chilean, even though I don't agree with his views I have treated him with nothing but respect.
If someone pretending to be British suggested that the Union Jack should be replaced with a handkerchief... would you not question his true identity?
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