MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Spanish vessel with Falklands’ flag barred from the port of Punta del Este
A Spanish fishing vessel flying the Falkland Islands flag was barred from entering the alternative port of Punta del Este where she was planning to receive crewmembers. The news was confirmed by Uruguay’s Coast Guard. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesHERE we go again,
Jan 05th, 2012 - 01:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0perhaps this time espania should get its finger out.
Now this is interesting. Why did they do it? (the boat I mean)
Jan 05th, 2012 - 01:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0“with the exception of the ‘illegal’ Falklands banner”
Jan 05th, 2012 - 01:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0banner? :-)) I thought it was a rug with a sheep on it.
The Uruguayan Coast Guard thanks Mr Beef for the illegal vessels location updates. Keep the good job!
“not have Spanish fishing vessels hostages of a sovereignty conflict
Jan 05th, 2012 - 01:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0I still think she is up to something, [the nation that retaliates first, may well end up the bad guy]
They are pushing for a response. Nothing from the British, so perhaps if the Spanish were held hostage over this, or somehow dragged into it, Argentina can then claim a European first aggression, and thus call on S/A for help,
Im not saying this it true, but it does seems very fishy that the Uruguayan government
Does this again, even after talks, and to the Spanish,
Just a wild thought .
.
Well, after having admitted that one Falklands flagged vessel has been sitting in Montevideo for the last few weeks, and not stopping the Royal Navy's patrol ship, Uruguay had to be seen to be doing something.
Jan 05th, 2012 - 01:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Look's like they are prepared to take on Spain at least :-)
and yet [5] new destroyers just sitting there, waiting
Jan 05th, 2012 - 02:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.maritimephotographic.co.uk/whats-new.htm
and waiting, to be deployed .
6 No money for the fuel maybe.
Jan 05th, 2012 - 02:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Come on, the time is runing, go home!
Jan 05th, 2012 - 02:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0@7 what with all the oil we have in the north sea and now the new oil finds in the falklands, i doubt fuel is an issue. In fact Marcus the only reason why they have not been deployed yet is they have yet to complete their sea trials. Though the first one is due to complete such sea trials early this year and is due to be deployed by the summer i believe. Perhaps her first port of call should be the river plate, just so she can give your harrasing coast gaurd and naval vessels a few warning shots.
Jan 05th, 2012 - 03:39 am - Link - Report abuse 09 Coffeeboy
Jan 05th, 2012 - 04:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Tell them to hurry up.
@10 Mucus Boy - “Tell them to hurry up”
Jan 05th, 2012 - 06:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0No need, as i said the first one will be deployed by the summer, theres no need to rush it through the remainder of its sea trials, just to blow up a few argentine rowing boats that are already full of holes.
11 Cofeeboy,
Jan 05th, 2012 - 06:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0We are in summer already down here dummy.
Oh, and maybe Britain does not rule the waves any more, Brit incompetence rules the waves.
This is funny. The FI can benefit from selling licences to Spanish companies that fly the FI flag and then cannot fish because they cannot unload. This means more fish in the ocean for the FI companies that are still able to dock in Uruguay (like the Jacqueline).
Jan 05th, 2012 - 07:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0The FI companies get more catch and the FIG still gets the licence money from other vessels operating under a licence.
Good business if you can get it :-)
The LE gets closer every day.
@12 Mucus “We are in summer already down here dummy.”
Jan 05th, 2012 - 09:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Given they are british ships and they are in britain at the moment and given i am in britian to then officially they the first will be deployed early british summer time - Your dummy Mucus as anyone with a brain cell would have known i was referring to britians summer not the south atlantice summer.
As for - “Oh, and maybe Britain does not rule the waves any more, Brit incompetence rules the waves.”
Well its not like Argentina does either, hell you lot don't even have any boats fit for travelling on the high seas, so i don't what your point is - As we still have the boats with more than the needed firepower to blow your rowing boats out of the sea, in fact we won't even be able to sink your boats as one shot and any your boats hit would blown to smitherines. Pure and simple.
The head of Argentina’s Navy, Admiral Jorge Godoy, was dismissed last month after being criminally charged in connection with the service’s espionage operation targeting politicians, civic activists and human rights organizations.
Jan 05th, 2012 - 10:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Oh, and maybe Britain does not rule the waves any more, Brit incompetence rules the waves
Botox queen waves the rules and sacks the the head of the navy
The investigation into domestic spying by the Navy date back to 2006 and was spurred by a criminal complaint presented by the Centre for Legal and Social Studies think-tank and a young seaman who had refused to take part in the illegal espionage.
@6 I fail to see why Britain should respond and deploy any additional naval resources. The logic of the situation is that there is a problem between a country of Spanish origins and a Spanish-owned vessel flying a flag of convenience. Nothing to do with Britain. Do you see the Panamanian navy rushing around the world if a Panamanian-registered vessel has a problem? You do not. Leaving aside the difficulty that Panama doesn't have a navy.
Jan 05th, 2012 - 12:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If the Spanish have a problem, let them send one or two of their own. They have 95 vessels. Including a titchy little aircraft carrier (17,188 tons). They don't seem to have a problem making incursions into British Gibraltar Territorial Waters. Let's see them do the same in Argentine and Uruguayan waters. Perhaps the RN on-station warship, currently HMS Montrose, could stand off at a reasonable distance and video the action.
@ 12 They are British and they are enjoying winter.... They don´t want the world to believe argentinian lies about summer in Jan in Malvinas! Jajajajjajaja
Jan 05th, 2012 - 02:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0:-))
Jan 05th, 2012 - 03:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Marcos, did read this one?
Jan 05th, 2012 - 03:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.eldia.com.ar/edis/20120105/malvinas-medio-crisis-economica-europea-opinion3.htm
Now I did, thanks. They are feeling the pressure.
Jan 05th, 2012 - 04:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They don´t want the world to believe argentinian lies about summer in Jan
Jan 05th, 2012 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Heat wave hits Buenos Aires, prompting a 'red alert' and raising fears of massive crop damage.
enjoy your summer
Burn baby burn :-))))))
@21 Don´t be childish.
Jan 05th, 2012 - 05:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0you lot started it :-)
Jan 05th, 2012 - 05:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Another victory time is runing out on the Falklands
Jan 05th, 2012 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Marcos - how is banning a Spanish fishing company vessel raising the pressure? Struggling to get my head around that bit of Argie logic (if there is such an thing)? Still avoiding my little offer of a bet?
Jan 05th, 2012 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Tigger - Another victory? Didn't know you had any previous ones? Is this not a victory over that Spanish? Hasn't affected the FI or UK in any way so you must have something against your Iberian masters.
16 Conqueror [agreed] this was for their benefit anyway,
Jan 05th, 2012 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0My info tells me, that the British government feels, that the Spanish should respond at this point in time,
[The] type 45s , I believe have a prior engagement if required, and needed,
But not yet stated, [oil] I believe,?
14 Teaboy2, you may be slightly wrong of this occasion abt Argentina ruling the waves.
Marcos Alejandro , you may bee correct abt Argentina ruling the local waves .
Apparently according to the latest air fix model company, the argentine does rule the seas-
In the wave tank ] and their new fleet has yet to see any opposition, ?/
Britain does not rule the waves any more//, we beg to differ,
At least outside of the tank, lol
.
Islas Malvinas, very good! tenemoskeagruparfuerzas!
Jan 05th, 2012 - 08:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@27 Sure thing!
Jan 05th, 2012 - 08:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They will try to come for Antarctica... and might think of Amazonas soon...
This time they´ll have to face United States of Lantinamerica.
It won´t be that easy to steal our resources like they´ve always done before.
Long Live Latinamerica! :)
good to ear. The next step is to ban Every vessel with Uk flag (or red flag) that is directed to or coming from the Malvinas. Otherwise the measure can be easily violated. In this way all future boat that can be allocated to the exploitation of oil will have a much higher operating costs discourage investments ... and on the other side to attract Latinamerican investors such as Petrobras or PDVSA in Argentina with a policy of reduction of permits to explore the Malvinas submarine platform that is Argentina.
Jan 05th, 2012 - 09:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Islas - that would be the Latin America that is happy to allow passage of the Leiv Eiriksson :-)
Jan 05th, 2012 - 10:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0BJK - you are good entertainment. How little you know about offshore oil exploration is hilarious. BTW none of the oil ships/rigs are UK flagged. Lots of Danish and Norwegian vessels and the rigs are Panama and Bahamas flagged.
Best bit is due to FPSO technology the eventual oil production in the Falkland Islands doesn't need any South American infrastructure :-) Chuckle Chuckle!
25 Beef “Still avoiding my little offer of a bet?”
Jan 05th, 2012 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not avoiding any bet Beef, I had told you in the past that I am not a gambler and I don't need to become one. Short of money? Get a real job.
A gambler is nothing but a man who makes his living out of hope. ~William Bolitho
TWIMC
Jan 05th, 2012 - 10:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Leiv Eiriksson oil rig has not and will not enter Brazilian, Uruguayan or Argentinean territorial waters.
Anybody doubting the above can easily track the vessels journey at:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/
Marcos - You are fully aware I have a well paid job. This provides the cash to invest in a variety of companies.
Jan 05th, 2012 - 10:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't believe in hope Marcos. Hope is a path to failure like the “hope” you have on getting your mits on the Falkland Islands.
You carry on with hope, we will carry on with making a reasonable rate of return :-)
Just a few activist in a inflatable boat are enough to do the job :-)
Jan 05th, 2012 - 10:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Greenpeace activists force Arctic oil rig to stop drilling”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/04/greenpeace-activists-force-arctic-oil-rig-stop-drilling
Think - the Beef didn't mention territorial waters. I said EEZ on a previous post.
Jan 05th, 2012 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Marcos - so they had more resources than the Argentine navy then ;-) Would you want to place a bet on whether or not they will do it again in the FI? Go on, grow some.
they´ll have to face United States of Lantinamerica
Jan 05th, 2012 - 11:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That’s an awful lot of plastic, there boys,
but can you afford the interest .
.
United States of Latin America - now I see the Argies are pushing this soverignty charade even further :-)
Jan 05th, 2012 - 11:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anyway FI are British and will remain so. On with the drilling! FPSO here we go.
Perhaps they are dreaming of a united states of the Americas
Jan 05th, 2012 - 11:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0With Argentina as its head,
Delusions know no bounds
indoctrination know no sense .
And the British will still be all over the Atlantic
And the Falklands will still be British .
that's not true, you have not understood. In 2010 Ocean Guardian is supplied in three ports of Brazil, this means that a ship is heading north need to supplies up on the continent. The measures should apply to all ships bound for the Falklands without distinction, complete ban on British ships and prohibitions related to the companies that have interests with the islands, whether fishing, oil or others (not the flags of their ships ), this would require ships to have as the only route western Africa . Besides the next step should be the early implementation of the national law No. 26659, which is already approved in the Congress but was not yet implemented by the executive, must be pressed to put into practice. This should be the beginning of a long series of more radical measures later. We were not satisfied with the diplomatic victories we achieved so far, that's what the British want to be rhetorical only, and
Jan 06th, 2012 - 12:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0we were happy with this one, that's not the way. We must think of practical issues and to keep in mind the pockets. David Cameron is reacting and is getting concerned, did not noticed the tone in which the British media took the measurements?
B-JobKing - Argentina willing to break so many international laws?
Jan 06th, 2012 - 01:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Treaties they have signed?
Argentina cannot ban British shipping. South America cannot ban British shipping. The consequences would be too great.
What diplomatic victories?? You have never got a result - which is a defeat, not a victory :-)
Ignoring international law is not as easy as ignoring history !
http://falklandsnews.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/desperate-for-heroes/
another country INVADED BY UK, SOUTH AFRICA, and his flag until 1924 http://southafrica-for-dummies.com/south-africa-flag/
Jan 06th, 2012 - 10:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Kipling, South Africa independent since 1931. That's a long time ago.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 11:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina still invading native American territories today.
Kipling lives in the past,
Jan 06th, 2012 - 01:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I wonder what kiplin was doing when the cakes burnt,
or his 8x uncle,
Nero when rome burnt
silly boy
32 The Leiv Eiriksson oil rig ........will not enter .......... Argentinean territorial waters.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 01:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Absolutely right - Good of you to acknowledge that.
Argentina is out of control.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 03:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let's list the reasons.
1. Starts a Trade War with China (over Soya)
First off, no one wins a trade war. Not even between two super-powers. But Argentina, as the aggressor?????
2. As reported here at Merco Press, they gloat about the economic difficulties facing Europe right now.
3. Finland, the UK, Spain, Germany, and the USA, have filed complaints about the high levels of corruption in Argentina (a story also reported here at MP).
4. And, of course, the Falkland Islands debacle.
Argentina is picking a fight with the world and actually thinks it can win.
I have said it before but will say it again because it is worth repeating.
Argentina has no military to speak of - neither does Uruguay for that matter.
What it does have is a lot of corrupt politicians suffering from the worst known case of psychotic arrogance. ie; out of control.
And, like all psychotics, they are extremely resistant to exposure. So they will never admit they are wrong. Correspondingly, they don't believe in such a thing as consequences. They are totally incapable of correcting the model from which they view the world. Why? Because they actually confuse that model with reality itself.
This is what is meant by the term “adolescent narcissism.”
They can saber rattle all they want. They are a doomed people.
Now, regarding their economic success of late.
You can see evidence of this in Puerta Madero in BA.
But what do we really see?
We see Exxon, Coca-cola, and other important multinationals, building service centers there.
ie; they all intend to stay.
These companies require English and Emotional Intelligence.
If employees can't demonstrate a competency in both, they are fired.
I will explain in a future comment the impact this will have on Argentina.
A hint for now - Immigration and HB-1 visas = New Demography.
Once again in LA history, “success” depends on outside support.
And this is her justification for saber rattling. Que boludos!
@28 I'm afraid you misunderstand the situation. Britain is already in Antarctica. And most of Argentina's claims will be irrelevant if the Antarctic Treaty System is ended, as Britain got there 34 years earlier.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 03:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@34 Another one who doesn't understand realities. Greenpeace is a little protest movement operating, in the case mentioned, in a peaceful and law-abiding area of the world. Except for one small haven, the South Atlantic bears no similarity. Most of it is occupied by vicious, belligerent criminal gangs posing as “governments”. The solution to South American activists, particularly argies, is simple. Shoot them. Or hang them!
#40 Dear Lord Ton
Jan 06th, 2012 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Talking about Argentina you say “What diplomatic victories?? You have never got a result - which is a defeat, not a victory..”
Well, Roger, you're not exactly a good example to follow your criteria identifying a victory or a defeat.
The English team was overwhelmed by the French and German team ..... and yet in the photo you celebrate with your left arm in gesture of victory ?
by the way Red....interesting that the name of your Club..... Pirates of Pattaya ??
British British .... never change, the same spirit of 1833 so far.
http://www.pattayamail.com/816/sports.shtml
There are plans to lure Argentina into a new Falklands War, there are plans in place that would see most of the Argentine Navy sunk and most of their airfields destroyed and many of their cities taken out.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 04:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It will be for Argentina, what WW2 was for Germany :)
uK lose weight within the European Union, the Mercosur trade relations with the EU I think the conditions exist for a crash. The political cost would not affect relations with other European countries, to say that what would look with pleasure. On the other hand the block has on its agenda open to emerging economies such as those in BRICS.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 04:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of diplomatic victories, I quote the Mercopress own.
“the new policy Mercosur is the latest in a string of small victories for Argentina Diplomatic, Which is keen to regionalization what you Always Been a bilateral dispute. Already Mercosur does not welcome British warships in STI ports on Falklands' duty. Earlier in December a meeting of the newly formed 33-country Community of Latin American and Caribbean States unanimously backed Argentina's ”legitimate rights in the Sovereignty dispute“ over the Falklands and South Georgia. UNASUR, the putative South American union, have done Likewise.
In 2010 Hillary Clinton, America's Secretary of State, call for talks over the dispute, in contrast to 1982 when to the United States backed Britain.”
We back China on Taiwan they back Argentina over Malvinas
“China and Argentina ratify crossed support for Taiwan and Falklands’ claims”
uk are staying alone, the stupid diplomatic moves was stay isolated because we are a island. and on the other hand win enemies around the world.
british are meaningless
and you sprout a load of indocrinated rubbish,
Jan 06th, 2012 - 07:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0indoctrinated going to be the way the British are going to beg for mercy when they realize that they are alone and everyone against.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@51 LOL! Beg whom? The Germans are doing a fair amount of that trying to entice the UK to help bail out the Euro.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Tell me, is that how Argentines felt, alone and everyone against them, when your neighbours stood by and watched your country go bankrupt? I am curious because I would never wish on any country the hell you had to go through when your country defaulted and the IMF walked away. As I say, I would NEVER wish that on any country. Yet having experienced it you seem to wish it on everyone else. That does not make you a good person.
Jerry Brooks
Jan 06th, 2012 - 08:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0BJK - you talk a lot of tripe- but then so do so many Argentine supporters on here!
Jan 06th, 2012 - 09:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0British Royal Navy vessels banned from S American ports??!!!! - well one HMS has just been into both Rio de Janiero and Montevideo.
In 2-3 months time another will be visiting 2 other nations in S America.
Brtitish flagged vessels banned? Since when and in which ports?
Try that one- a total brach of Int Law - an EU member state - so you will find yourself barred from all EU States in return I expect!
Ur President publicy states- I will support Arg politically eg over shipping flags - but I will NOT ban economic trade between us.
The Islands trade freely with Chile and Brazil and Uruguay.
You need to clamber into the real world!
@52 LOL sorry ma'am if you feel bad for my harsh comment, i am sorry, i am not british, those are not my desires, i do not say that, do i?, is simply a sarcastic reading of the reality of the coming years by a poor leadership prolonged in UK. Fortunately things have changed sides and is doing justice to the pirates.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 09:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0in a short and polite form...
You have all in XIX century and lost all in the XX century.
What would Queen Victoria say if she saw Cameron and this country like now in XXI century?
I think she would prefer to be Irish.
what do you think?
Have good night!
Well put it this way,
Jan 06th, 2012 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If queen Victoria was alive today,
Argentina would not be where you are today, but in the gutter, and that’s a fact,
Britain is doing quite well in the world, our exports are increasing , more cars are being sold abroad, the banks are building a solid foundation to take the crash, if it comes, I think you will find it is the EU that has bigger problems, and are begging for the British to give money,
our money, and if mr Cameron gives in, and gives them our money, and we go down the pan with them, then you may have a little giggle if that pleases you,
But rest assured we are doing a lot better than people think we are,
During his reign invaded us with the French twice but failed both, could endure years of siege and we succeed. His predecessors in the early nineteenth century also invaded us, you lost twice and the two ended their soldiers begging on the streets of Buenos Aires, all citizens burned with boiling oil from the terraces.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 10:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Here at a time began to buy Rovers, but not anymore because they were crap, they broke very easily. Today it is the cheapest cars in the local market (only used no new) because nobody wants them, I do not want British cars are bad, HSBC had a tube skyscrapers and moved into a former abandoned factory, to name two things that comes to your promise land. Keep up those policies, do not say no, because they are beneficial to us.
And I tell you as a European, I have dual citizenship also I am Argentine and European citizen, could be living in London if I wanted now, but I choose to live in this country who has more future.
could be living in London if I wanted now, but I choose to live in this country who has more future.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 10:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So say the rabbit, but he wont give up his British passport [just in case]
Always bad cars, but is it not true, its probably bad driving,
Argies are good at that, driving people round the twist .
you lost twice [and you are about to ?]
,
.
-i haven't any brittish passport, i dont need it.
Jan 06th, 2012 - 11:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0-I recommend you drive a German car
-just still sleeping...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon/2012/jan/03/davidcameron-economicgrowth
[1] ah, ok
Jan 07th, 2012 - 12:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0[2] German car, probably the best,
[3] Probably the best thing,
Besides have we all heard the news, the royal navies newest destroyers are on the move,
HMS Daring to the gulf,
And HMS Dauntless
Will follow if needed
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8997956/Royal-Navy-sends-its-mightiest-ship-to-take-on-the-Iranian-show-of-force-in-the-Gulf.html
1x type 45=5 destroyers, so they say .
LOL, we may be good friends
Jan 07th, 2012 - 01:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0why do you and many british relate All Things With War? a person living in peace has no need for it.
must have good people in the islands,
I know several British here, and are different, they are good people. I think it's the environment in which you live, here the tension we have is only for the traffic jam or overloaded subways, or football teams. Completely different cultures. Here we gather with friends, family, talked about more important things in life.
And I think that the media and the government helps a bit that you are that way, not realizing there is a bombardment of information contant prosecuted.
Are there such values there?, Or everything is money and war.
Wipe the smile off your face Beef - 290 !!
Jan 07th, 2012 - 02:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0A lot of people Europeans think Argentina is outdated and needs taking out. It's like a Nazi relic of the 20th Century. Time me thinks to take em out. Sooner they make the next move, sooner we can crush them.
Jan 07th, 2012 - 02:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0free Ascension Island...!!free Falkland island...!!
Jan 07th, 2012 - 05:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0As no-one has any right to live on Ascension Island, who would we free it too ??
Jan 07th, 2012 - 08:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0And yes, I know its listed with St. Helena, but that's just for administration and conveience. It's a military base - nothing more!
55
Jan 07th, 2012 - 09:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0i am not british
I would never have guessed.
@61 “I know several British here, and are different, they are good people. I think it's the environment in which you live, here the tension we have is only for the traffic jam or overloaded subways, or football teams. Completely different cultures. Here we gather with friends, family, talked about more important things in life”.
Jan 07th, 2012 - 01:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I spend a lot of time in Argentina and my friends there are nothing like the extreme bloggers on here that run the CFK fan club. It is true the Argentines are sociable and spend time talking about pretty much everything but not things irrelevent to their day to day life, like TFIs. Inflation, crime and corruption were top of the list last time I was there and I shall be interested to see if that has changed when I get back there soon.
It is an entirely different culture to the UK but only a small stretch from Italian culture where wealth and beauty are worshipped above everything and corruption just a part of every day life. Everything is a drama and chaos rules in Argentina. I still like it there. I happen to think the Argentines deserve a better government. One that does not lie and steal.
@61 Might have something to do with argentine belligerency and lies. Or should that be lies and belligerency?
Jan 07th, 2012 - 02:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The problem is that you lot come out with a load of lies, none of which you can prove. Which is why they are called lies. You tie that to self-serving misinterpretation. Then you act on them in contravention of international law and treaties that you have signed. You also have other nasty habits such as quoting UN resolutions that are irrelevant, hawking your lies around the world and ignoring UN resolutions yourselves.
An economic blockade is war without guns. And who started it? You did. So don't bother with all the crap about friendship and peace. We all know you don't mean it. Just look at your actions after the Argentine invasion and defeat. You became “democratic”. You were “friendly” and “peaceful”. You entered into agreements and treaties. A few years go past and it all gets dumped when you figure out that the Falkland Islanders aren't going to forgive, forget and volunteer to become part of Argentina.
So forget all the drivel. Perhaps, just perhaps, if you start acting like a mature, civilised country, the Islanders may forgive in a century or two. Forget? Never. Volunteer to become part of Argentina? That's THEIR choice. One that Britain and the British people will support until the sun goes cold!
61 BJK
Jan 07th, 2012 - 04:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0why do you and many british relate All Things With War? a person living in peace has no need for it.
I think there's an equal amount of war talk coming from both sides. The Argentines seem to have backed off a little now and are trying to accuse the Brits and Falkland Islanders of threatening military aggression as our first and only answer. We don't want to see a war at all. I've been reading these blogs for a long time and the first mentions of the threat of war came from the Argentine side. Then as the British response started pointing out that you don't have the military capability to defeat Britain, the Argentines tried to turn this into a British threat of war.
Perhaps we should deploy our new stealth Type 45 destroyer HMS Daring to the area instead of sending it to join our battle fleet in the Gulf to help keep Iran in check. Iran another country like Argentina run by corrupt political masters getting too big for their boots. HMS Daring the first of six type 45 destroyers costing 1 billion quid, hey argy bloggers do you know what 6 billion quid looks like. No and you never will. Oh and another thing POOR argy bloggers I thought you said that ENGLAND the UK was broke and on her knees. Have a nice day know POOR Argy bloggers.
Jan 07th, 2012 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You will find that most brits, can trace back to at least 1066, and probably before that
Jan 07th, 2012 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We are an island race,
Fiercely, territorial, loyal , basically a peaceful race.
Until we are threatened,
A bit like putting your worst nightmare, in Pandora’s box,
Push our button to far, [and]
And we comma visiting,
And hell comes with us,
But we are very friendly and peaceful, when we want to be .
great Britain, [you know it makes sense .]
@ 67 Elaine, there is a difference between what the media try day by day and the issues that we talk with friends, the opposition media talks about crime, inflation and corruption but official media talks about growth, both points of view are real, we inherit a great part of our culture from Italy, you need to formulate your own point of view every time. Anyway the thing are gettin far better than ten or twenty years ago. there are in people a sense of prosperity and that greatly benefits any business you wish to undertake
Jan 07th, 2012 - 10:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ very interesting all points of view. At times I think that both sides used the war is politically, I think that governments use it as a means of social cohesion, it is as if there are rumors of war, we become more nationalistic, and we see the president, with new eyes as our protector, either Cameron or CFK, this side of the sea I can assure you from the idiosyncrasy of this country, the Falklands are Argentine, we learn from school as children, singing hymns is very ingrained in our culture and we willing to die if necessary, we sing it in the national anthem, the culture here is a bit more passion than the British, when we propose something seriously, we did
The issue is that if I get from your side, I would be afraid to change, because, i dont know how will be my life in the future, right? The British are more closed and cold, but have inner a great culture like ours, we listen to the Beatles, Oasis, read Shakespeare, and so on., but Do you know who is Borges or Cortazar?
the question is that there is a big problem to solve. before the war, we had cultural relations, you came to Buenos Aires, UK relations had always been good, but the lack of dialogue makes us stupid. (UK and Argentina). The million question is ... How Can We Solve this problem? Do you think to solve it? or just hide their heads underground to avoid seeing what is happening around like an ostrich.
72 BJK, we have no interest in what you might have to offer. It is all just a bluff to get control. You proved that in 1982.
Jan 07th, 2012 - 10:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We don't have a problem, you have a problem. So YOU work out how to solve it and we'll just get on with our lives. We don't have our head in the sand. How could we? We already know how desperate Argentina is. You proved that in 1982 when your troops invaded our islands with armed force.
I know it must hurt you to see us prosper while your corrupt officials blow much of your great potential wealth but your pain will ease as you become more accustomed to our huge success. Just try to think of something to take your mind off it.
Of course, you will probably pressure LAN into stopping its flights and your illegal blockading bullying will continue and probably strengthen (and at the same time you'll keep trying to convince us that we could like you) and I'm sure you think of more things to do to stop our commerce but in the end you'll realise it's all just a waste of time.
I have several Argentine friends and I'll continue travelling to Argentina as I do the rest of the world but I don't think I'll feel any more like becoming part of Argentina than I would say, Chile, or Puerto Rico, or Belgium. We are British and we'll remain so.
72 BJK
Jan 07th, 2012 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think you may be slightly confused, we understand perfectly the truth, thus you do not,
Allow me,
You say what you honestly believe [that’s fine] but as you are all indoctrinated, you do not understand or realise what you are say,, but what you are told to say , [example]
, the Falklands are Argentine, we learn from school as children, singing hymns is very ingrained in our culture and we willing to die if necessary, we sing it in the national anthem, the culture here is a bit more passion than the British,,,//
If we were taught from birth that Argentina was British, your story would fall flat on it face,
If it was drummed into us, day in, day out, year in year out, we to would thing fairies fly to the mood,
[Have you cottoned on yet] we are taught abt other things, including world events, not just all the world belongs to the British .////
[and we see the president, with new eyes as our protector ]
To us, this is nothing short of dictatorship and indoctrination at its worst,
Read , north Korea, they think he is a god, even Japan thought they had a god,
And look what it took to bring them of their deluded perch .////
[The British are more closed and cold ] wrong again,
Doors are closed//and the dead are cold, [we] are neither .
[but the lack of dialogue makes us stupid][]// no just brainwashed //
[][The million question is ... How Can We Solve this problem? ]///
We already have, its ours, you are the one that has the problem,
We have no problems, just you, and your problem is dragging in innocent others,
And a lot of innocent people will get hurt, all because you created a problem
That only YOU can solve ..
.
BJK- One day the Problem Will be solved. It will be solved by ARG-Islands-UK mature groups sitting down and talking-with no preconditions AT ALL - and will probably result in Independence for the Islands - recognised by Argentina, then there would be no need for a UK military presence here.
Jan 07th, 2012 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But the current(and previous 2) Arg Govts will have to change policy away from the current Economic and Trade and Communications WAR. back to that of the menem ers- you maintained your claim - but at the same time were prepared to sit down and agree mutual areas of common interest with us.
All that your current Govt has totally destroyed in the last 8-9 years! Your side has driven the S.Atlantic back to June 1982.
I think to be realistic, if Arg started tomorrow to reverse the mess - perhaps by 2050 we might be learning to be friends again - sorry but it will take a LOT longer than 8-9 years to repair the damage done since 1983!
Had Arg carried on its policies towards us of the Menem Era- we would have been at the UN talking with you by now, it would have been impossible Internationally not to - no doubt about that - The Kirscheners bust it for you!
@72 BJK
Jan 07th, 2012 - 11:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The only way that realtions will ever be good between the UK and Argentina is when we know:
1) we don't have to worry EVER about having to defend the falklands from Argentine aggression.
2) We don''t have continual threats about the status of the Islands and demands to “negotiate” so that we can be somehow pressurised into giving Argentina 1 square inch of British territory. IE when Argentina peacfully relinquishes its' demands for sovereignty.
3) Argentina takes steps to noramlise relations with the UK and Falkland islands in terms of freedom of navigation of the sea.
4) Argentina stops trying to recuit allies to support it in its aggression towards us.
I do not want to convince the upper hand or anything, i can not do it, but I think, and give my opinion. Can I do it?
Jan 07th, 2012 - 11:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0afterall the matter escapes from your hands and mine.
policies change over the time
Not my problem, personally I am sure that my home is in Argentina and no country, denies this.
So I just wanted to put issues on the table to talk like people and be gentle as possible, Excuse me if it hurt your feelings,
Good Night
good morning .
Jan 08th, 2012 - 12:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 75
Jan 08th, 2012 - 02:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0Friends? of thieves, no thanks
Independence the falkland? started with delusions, who smoke?
77 BJK, think of it like this. If what I describe isn't quite your situation, try to use your imagination for the purpose of this explanation. I assume that you were born and bred in Argentina and so were your parents. Let's say their parents were also. Living in Argentina as an Argentine is all you have ever known and it's what your children will be also. You own property, a nice house, maybe a weekend retreat as well, all of your extended family also live there and they all own nice homes, have their own businesses or good jobs and lots of children.
Jan 08th, 2012 - 09:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0You know that a neighbouring country claims that they own your country; how can you not, it makes the news regularly and your parents tell you about it a lot. But what can you do about that? You're just a young person growing up where you were born, going to school, playing with your friends (being careful of the land mines that the neighbouring country laid on “their own country” of course), going to university, getting a job, getting a mortgage and getting married, etc.
Then the neighbouring country- a country whose culture is nothing much like yours- decided that it is going to take your country for theirs once and for all. So they start blockading your transport routes and they put pressure on all of the companies that they trade with to stop trading with your country. They do everything they can to try to convince the world that you have no right to live in your country.
Imagine this is happening to you and then see if you can understand why we are upset.
The situation is very complex and delicate. And I hope not to hurt your feelings. I understand to you.
Jan 08th, 2012 - 03:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let us start by recognizing that the islands belonged to Argentina and were “inhabited” (occupied) by the British in the nineteenth century during colonial aggressive global expansion (you can deny me but please read global history, not only “british history”)
that is the context in which we leave, things changed in the century and always kept diplomatic relations but never came to fruition and this causes a conflict in the past. Uk always acknowledged that he had a conflict since the nineteenth century but did nothing to fix because it was strong, and has a seat on the Security Council the UN, and has the power to veto. today the world changed and UK is no longer a super power, is only one nation in Europe. Brazil now weighs more than UK, for example, so the British diplomatic weight has decreased significantly.
On the other hand you are the injured parties, that the ancestors of your government never sat down seriously to resolve the conflict, and if not resolved now, the strongest pressure will continue to weigh on your sons. I understand you perfectly is hard to recognize, and you going to deny me a thousand times but this is reality.
How can you not be harmed?
is the responsibility of you who governs you, you should complain to your government to give you a solution. No talk will aggravate the problems.
Acknowledging a conflict is not admitting fault and just because you were taught poems and songs at school doesn't mean you are right (actually that sounds like the instructions of an insecure and immature state. Did they also tell you all that you were Roman Catholics and that God actually exists?)
Jan 08th, 2012 - 06:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If you're right and the UK is wrong, what are you waiting for? Make a legitimate move. Of course you won't choose military action because it is the UK people only who speak non-stop about war (oh, except in April 1982). Your government must really frustrate you if the case is so clear but they refuse to do something legitimate about it.
Tell me one thing though BJK. If in a parallel universe, Argentina DID get the islands back, what on earth would you all use as a distraction from your real and pressing problems? Also, explain how it would make an ounce of difference in tangible terms to any Argentine's life.
On a separate note, I am pleased to hear that your president has not got cancer. Unlike a few minor exceptions from the Falklands / British side and actually one or two from the Argentine side of this news site, I would not wish poor health on anybody.
#11-mateboy:“No need, as i said the first one will be deployed by the summer, theres no need to rush it through the remainder of its sea trials, just to blow up a few argentine rowing boats that are already full of holes.”
Jan 08th, 2012 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0AHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! You are sooo DUMB mateboy..uk is FINISHED like you!!
Bravo Argentina,way to go!
Down with the nazi-brits criminals!!
72 BJK (#)----I can assure you from the idiosyncrasy of this country, the Falklands are Argentine, we learn from school as children, singing hymns is very ingrained in our culture and we willing to die if necessary, we sing it in the national anthem, the culture here is a bit more passion than the British, when we propose something seriously, we did.
Jan 08th, 2012 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And that says it all how you are brainwashed into thinking that the Falklands belong to Argentina doesn't it? If you tell someone often enough that white is black they will begin to believe it especially if you tell them this from early childhood.
Most of us have heard of Borges or Cortazar but find them irrelevant when we have had people like Shakespeare so why would we read writings from these people when we have the master ?
There is no problem on our side of the coin, why should there be? You are disputing history and making trouble. We don’t have to do anything if you think you are right then it’s up to your country not ours to prove your dispute and the only way do that is to take your case to the international law court, which your country shies away from all the time, doesn't that tell you something about your claim? It should do, because if the shoe was on the other foot I myself would be saying hang on a moment if my country is right and what they have told us from birth is true why doesn't my Government take it further in a court of law. I WOULD SMELL A RAT with what I have been told
you cannot talk or sit down and discuse with indocrinated brainwashed people,
Jan 08th, 2012 - 07:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0its as simple as that,
81 BJK
Jan 08th, 2012 - 07:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We can 'not be harmed' if you decide to grow up and stop harming us.
Your sovereignty claim is a choice. You don't have to do it. You said yourself that it doesn't affect you at all.
We however don't have a choice. This is our home and we will fight for it to the end.
83 Malvinero1
Jan 08th, 2012 - 09:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Down with the nazi-brits
Why is always an argie that speaks crap,
Was it not you Argies that gave safe havens to German criminals
Stupid boy.
.
#87“Why is always an argie that speaks crap,
Jan 08th, 2012 - 10:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Was it not you Argies that gave safe havens to German criminals
Stupid boy.”
Thank you,cheteah!!
I hope you have a very miserable 2012!!
I am feeling soo good,that the brits crap are upset!!
im not upset
Jan 08th, 2012 - 10:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0you are desperate
you argies are like puppies waiting for crumbs from the south American table,
2012, did not someone pridict the end of south America,
back again without a single shot. only with the force of reason (command Mahatma Gandhi)
Jan 09th, 2012 - 01:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://falklandsnews.wordpress.com/2012/01/09/david-cameron-we-must-never-put-them-at-risk/
Jan 09th, 2012 - 01:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Fighting back !
The first step is to open dialogue
Jan 09th, 2012 - 02:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 82
I think for myself and I will not myths or preconceived ideas, to give you some examples ..
First, I'm not Roman Catholic, I am Protestant, like most of you, here I am a minority under the freedom that everyone has to think, no I do not follow any way of Pope .
I agree that the moves of 1982 were stupid, that war was not planned and it was not a decision taken by the society at that time. Those responsible are in jail or dead.
But I am reader of history and what it says fit with what we were taught to children.
The fact of the Malvinas did not distract us from our goals the Malvinas are beyond any circumstantial situation or party., it's undeniable. And how would change the lives of the Argentine first possibility would generate more economics resources for the Patagonian people, more jobs and above all would have the freedom to live in my territory and stop any strange explodes the resources of my sea.
Thank you for your last words.
@ 86 This is my home too, I said that any action does not affect me, but the fact of Malvinas Argentinas, is something undeniable, is present all the time in the collective mind of this nation, the measures are to force the dialogue, because you do not listen to soft voices, responsible for all David Cameron, ask explanations.
@ 85, 89 briton, I was disappointed, I thought you were a smarter person.
1) there is nothing to talk about
Jan 09th, 2012 - 02:33 am - Link - Report abuse 02) 200,000 people in the Plaza de Mayo greeting Galtieri put the lie to 'not a decision taken by society' !
3) I am a reader of history too, and NO it does not fit with what is taught to your children.
4) You are all brainwashed, so YES, the Islands are not circumstantial or a party matter. You all believe 70 years of your government's lies. That's a pity. The truth is something else!
Brainwash anyone ??
:-)
Uncivilized people not talk
Jan 09th, 2012 - 03:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0I understand that for you, 200,000 are many people but does not represent or 1% of the population of our country.
Do you know who is the first person that born in Malvinas?
She is an Argentine
her name is:
Malvina Vernet y Saez.
Start an interesting study of the roots of this land and your roots.
Brainwash is to say “God Save The Queen” in a national hymn
As we sing in our hymn to freedom and glory
... and defend it or swear to die gloriously
what a difference!
She married an American ! And your point is ??
Jan 09th, 2012 - 06:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0there is nothing to talk about
Jan 09th, 2012 - 07:07 am - Link - Report abuse 02) 200,000 people in the Plaza de Mayo greeting Galtieri put the lie to 'not a decision taken by society' !
3) I am a reader of history too, and NO it does not fit with what is taught to your children.
4) You are all brainwashed, so YES, the Islands are not circumstantial or a party matter. You all believe 70 years of your government's lies. That's a pity. The truth is something else!
Brainwash anyone ??
Ahhahahahahahah!
Who cares about the nazi criminal uk
Apparently - you do :-)
Jan 09th, 2012 - 07:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0@83 Malveriner the stupid and pathetic loser. You couldn't win the argument about one of th enew Type 45 destroyers being deployed in the summer, so instead you wait a few days since i last posted on this article to see if i had posted again, assuming that my lack of posts meant i was no longer following the article and you could rather pathetically make the same comment as before about the UK and me, followed by nazi jibe on us brits.
Jan 09th, 2012 - 07:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry Malviner but the UK is doing just fine, or triple AAA rating is not even at risk, we have 5 brand new type 45 destroyers that i believe cost close to a Billion pounds each (probably more than argentinas entire military budget), with 2 new aircraft carries being built at the cost of 7 billion i believe, though that may rise. We are still spending billions on aid to foriegn countries, still giving the EU billions of pounds each year too. Not bad for country that in your opinion is suppose to be finnished. As for me, well my company is still growing, so i am hardly finnished, in fact, am getting richer and richer and the company is getting bigger and bigger.
And as for the nazi jibe, well thats rich coming form someone that is more likely to be hitlers grandson than any off us brits are likely to be nazi's.
@96Malvinero1,
Jan 09th, 2012 - 12:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You still have not learned to take your finger off the keyboard & you are still an ldiot.
@94BJK,
Very nice l'm sure but it has nothing to do with our lslands.
Despite what you say or think, these are our lslands, not yours.
There is nothing to “negotiate”.
You have three options:-
1)make Argentina so good that we would WANT to join you(personally l don't think that will ever happen!).
2)take the case to Court(ICJ).
3)war.
Your choice,
talking will get you no-where.
:-)
Jan 09th, 2012 - 01:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Welcome Isolde!, you have not noticed that our diplomacy is aimed at winning friends to our cause in the world and make your life more difficult with time, for a moment before writing to this forum was a bit against now I think it is fair and necessary, not soft voices are heard.
Jan 09th, 2012 - 03:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Tahnk Lord Ton, LOL, you are the ideal interlocutor of any dicourse of Platon, you are like briton, I thought you were smarter persons.
the point is that she was born in 1830 and the British expelled from their land in 1833, together with all the people who had been living under the Argentine government since the 20's, before the island had been abandoned by the Spanish, French and british and the signing of free trade and friendship in the same decade, signed by Argentina and Uk, recognized throughout the territory
Do you know That in the expedition, the British people join to Argentina and refused to acknowledge his majesty?, Do you know That there was a revolt on the island under British rule and was harshly repressed?.
Question...
All that to get to the point that the present inhabitants of the islands are ... usurpers, are not the true original inhabitants, history, culture and geography so require. your Rights over the islands doesnt exist in any court in the world, that is in your mind, is a brainwash against the truth...
“Desire the right”?
God dont save the queen if she steals, so...
sooner or later Truth and God will do justice
BJK (#
Jan 09th, 2012 - 06:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 089 briton, I was disappointed
[why] because the truth was spoken
Or because you believe that despite everything, at the end of the day,
Its sovereignty or nothing .
.
Another summary of the Argentine position
Jan 09th, 2012 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0QUOTE“All that to get to the point that the present inhabitants of the islands are ... usurpers, are not the true original inhabitants, history, culture and geography so require. your Rights over the islands doesnt exist in any court in the world, that is in your mind”.
Those Argentines making the slur “nazi” should hang their heads in shame. You are pursuing exactly the sort of policies that Nazi Germany did,yourselves.
1st State that the target of your aggression has stolen something from you , usually land(lebensarum) in your case this is the falklands.
2nd Deny that the people in the area you wish to annex are real people and that they have any rights when the land is occupied. Start to propagandize against the target, promoting the idea that they are inferior. Lie and lie and lie about them. This is what the Germans did to the Czechs and Poles. You are saying the same about the Falklanders.
3rd Put diplomatic pressure on the target. Military threats, economic leverage, blockade and the building of a hostile alliance against the target in order to give the aggression some semblence of ligetimacy. This is what you are doing now by gathering support from other S American countries.
4th Strike against the target, either in open conflict or by causing a crises that requires the target to capitulate. We are'nt at this stage, yet.
Then you wonder why we have no interest in talking to you? You have already attacked the islands in recent memory (1982). You are growing increasingly aggressive in pressing your claim against us. Many of you openly speak about the Falklanders as “usurpers” and deny them the right to live in their own homes. We have remembered the lessons of history, and no that there is no point trying to compromise with a country bent on conquest, unless you want to see the innocent suffer.
And then spent your anger on the brit bloggers,
Jan 09th, 2012 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0insulting them, if they dont agree with you,
then have the insult to call us bad for insulting you back,
only a bad workman blames his tools,
in this case
bad losers , that blames everybody else, except yourselves .
BlowJobKing - you talk some rubbish.
Jan 10th, 2012 - 01:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0Vernet had British permission from 1828. Therefore his daughter was there with British permission.
The islands had been deserted from 1811 to 1826. Vernet's expedition of 1823 failed. Of course there were British and Americans there in the form of sealers and whalers who would make settlements and stay for months on end. No sign of any Spanish or even anyone from their revolting colonies.
The trade agreement of 1825 did not acknowledge any borders or indeed, any right! Spain's right was still recognised.
There was a revolt, in 1832. Supressed by Pinedo when he got back. I didn't know that he was 'harsh'. That was the only revolt.
So - the point is that the current inhabitants are legally there, and that Argentina never had any claim. Spain gave hers up in 1863.
The news of the takeover of the Malvinas by Argentina are spread throughout the world, being published in Spain and the United States in August 1821. However this did not generate any protest made by Great Britain
Jan 10th, 2012 - 01:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Vernet in 1826 founded the first permanent settlement of the United Provinces in the archipelago over the remains of the ancient town founded Port Louis.
On June 10, 1829 Vernet was appointed Political and Military Commander of the archipelago to Argentina, encouraged the establishment of farms, drove the bargain between the islands and also improved the ties that bound the continental Argentina.
On December 20, 1832 arrived at Port Egmont, the corvette HMS Clio. Captain John Onslow took formal possession. A few days later the ship anchored off Puerto Soledad. The commander Onslow informed Pinedo that he was preparing to seize the island, Several British settlers, refused to acknowledge his majesty in those territories and remain argentines but were driven.
On June 17, 1833 Manuel Moreno, Argentine envoy to the UK government, presented a formal protest in a long document written in English and French. The protest, as is generally known to the text, repeated in substance the grounds already set forth in the decree of appointment of Vernet: given that the undeniable Spanish sovereignty over the islands had ceased due to the independence of their territories in America, the United Provinces the Rio de la Plata, as newly independent nation, recognized by Britain and other states, the rights it had in the jurisdiction of the South Seas. Britain, therefore, was excluded from the case, and had no right to claim.
The revolt was in August 1833, Supressed by british Challenger warship with Lieutenant Henry Smith, in january 1834, between those months the british usurpers were driven out by the Argentine gauchos.
It is hard to believe to you, but you might to reconize that her majesty have been lied to you. You are living in Argentina.
Blow -
Jan 10th, 2012 - 03:47 am - Link - Report abuse 01) It was published in 5 newspapers, Salem in America (not a very big town), London (big enough), Gibraltar (small), Madrid (big), Buenos Aires (small). No-one noticed. There were no complaints because Argentina did not exist in 1821. She was not recognised as an entity until 1825 by Britain. Can't complain to something that doesn't exist. Not that the actions of a pirate would ever have been considered 'official'.
2) Vernet did indeed return in 1826 but struggled fiancially. To try to alleviate this problem he submitted a request for import tax ememptions to Buenos Aires and, almost at the same time, had his land grant by BA countersigned by the British Consul.
3) In 1829, the BA Government gave a title that it had no power to give. Britain immediately objected and the action of Lavalle, all his actions in fact, were declared null and void by Rosas when he took over.
4) In january 1833 Onslow did indeed arrive at Port Louis, and found a foreign flag flying on British soil. He removed it, and asked the 'visitors' to leave as they were trespassing.
5) Moreno did indeed protest. In fact he had it published. All his arguments were refuted in Palmerston's response, and on his 2nd attempt, Moreno only tried to claim East Falkland because he now knew that Argentina had no claim to the western island. Spain still claimed Puerto Soledad for its own in 1833. Argentina, as a revolting colony, had no inheritance.
6) There was no revolt in 1833. There were some murders, and then the offenders fled and hid. They were captured as a result of trying to sell beef to the Reverend Titus Coan and the ship he was on. They were treated as criminals. They were criminals.
7) All Argentine children have been brainwashed since 1934 when Palacios made a law instructing all schools to teach one, spurious, version of history. Our Queen says nothing on the issue, and it is not taught in our schools. Our classrooms are not named after 'heroes' either!
You need to learn more!
Thanks Lord Ton!, Everything you write it is still a confirmation that the islands were usurped. There are many ways to refute your comments, many of them are...
Jan 10th, 2012 - 05:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0The only population in the history of the islands that was removed without his consent was Argentina,
Failure to recognize Argentina in 1820 is no excuse for not recognizing the territory of the Viceroyalty of the Rio de La Plata, which effectively inherit and included the Malvinas Islands, which were liberated from Spanish rule.
UK in 1825, recognized Argentina as a state only to perpetrate a scam with a loan at that time, the islands were populated by Argentina at the time, so could refuse to recognize Uk to Argentina for a territorial conflict the Falklands, but did not. And when it recognizes, acknowledges complete with all its dependencies.
Rosas recognized the sovereignty of the Malvinas Argentinas, is absurd your point of view
On January 15, 1833, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Buenos Aires, Maza, claimed for the outrage to the British Minister, Philip Gore. He did not answer (as now).
It was not trespassing, it was, usurpation. That is the legacy that have every islanders. This is your inheritance, must take charge.
Your queen is nothing to say Because she is ashamed to acknowledge that their ancestors were all thieves, and his son, the prince, he was unfaithful to his wife... and gay!
this is the culture of the royal family!
you should be proud of! is your own culture!
Blow - you're not a learner, are you?
Jan 10th, 2012 - 05:24 am - Link - Report abuse 01) There cannot be a 'usurpation' when you are a trespasser. Britain's claim went back to 1690. Spain's to 1767 (you cannot 'buy' the French one). Britain had not given up its claim. Spain had not given up its claim. Argentina never inherited anything. Therefore, no usurpation, merely the removal of a few trespassers.
2) Argentina did not 'liberate any Islands. Vernet went there in 1826 with a commercial venture. He had British permission from 1828. BA attempted to gain some sovereign rights in (arguably) 1829, but then were thrown off by the Americans, and again in 1832, but then were thrown off by the British. Argentina established no 'rights'.
3) No-one was on the Islands in 1825. Just the occassional sealer or whaler. Rosas declared all of Lavalle's government's actions as null and void, that is in your own records. Lavalle hadn't been a legal President remember! Maza wouldn't have got an answer, because it was not a matter for BA.
4) BA knew what may happen when it sent it force in 1832. BA had been warned. So yes, they were trespassing, and they were properly ejected, and pleasantly too.
5) Our Queen says nothing, because the politics of the UK are run by others. We like our Head of State to stay quiet. Argentina should try it!
I am proud of my culture. I am also proud of our history.
You should try reading some.
@109
Jan 10th, 2012 - 09:01 am - Link - Report abuse 01)Spain clearly gave their right to us. If any doubt ask their goverment.
2)Vernet was named “Primer Comandante Político Militar en las Islas Malvinas” by the Buenos Aires goverment, which was in charge of our foreign policy as arranged in the Confederation. Also, he choosed to wave the Argentine flag, not the British one, which speaks a lot by itself.
3)Rosas could only declare ilegal Lavalle's policy as Governor of Buenos Aires. What he did as the Foreign Policy Officer of the country could only be solved under a Pacto.
4)It would have been trespassing if it had been yours. Fortunately, when we started establishing in the islands, that was not the case.
5) But the Queen is a prime example of constitutional inequality. By your own laws she's at a different level from the rest of the people. Can you be king of the UK? Can your neighbor be? Can anybody apart a heir, a usurper or someone marrying in to the family? No. At least here under our constitution I can become president, doctor, lawyer or ceo of Clarin. The limitations are not set by the constitution. Maybe you should elect the King or Queen!
Stan -
Jan 10th, 2012 - 09:11 am - Link - Report abuse 01) the government of Spain cannot give you now what it did not give in the 1800's.
2) the action of Lavall's government in 1829 was illegal, and protested by the British Government - which says a lot!
3) Rosas the Dictator ! He declared ALL of the actions of Lavalls Government illegal. Nobody objected. Certainly not the other Provinces.
4) The Islands were ours as we had an outstanding claim, as indeed Spain did. So, you were trespassing!
5) Don't tell me - you think that there's some kind of natural law that says life has to be fair! Naive.
And actually I can be King ..... I'm just way down the list :-)
@110 - ”1)Spain clearly gave their right to us. If any doubt ask their goverment.”
Jan 10th, 2012 - 10:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0They clearly did not give you any rights, if in doubt juan just look up the lisbon treaty where the falklands are clearly listed as a british overseas territory. The lisbon treaty was signed and ratified by spain. If what you said was true they would not have been able to sign and ratify the lisbon treaty whilst the falkland were theres listed as a british oversea territorys. The fact they did sign howver proves they clearly did not give the falklands to you and that spain recognises british sovereignty.
And before you start saying hahahahah but gibralter is not listed under lisbon treaty as an overseas territory so spain did not recognise gibralter as being british. Well.... It is part of the EU, having joined the European Economic Community under the United Kingdom in 1973. Article 355(3) (ex Article 299(4)) applies the treaty to “the European territories for whose external relations a Member State is responsible”, a provision which in practice only applies to Gibraltar.
@110Juan Stanic,
Jan 10th, 2012 - 10:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0Most of us don't care whether we can be king or queen.
We are happy with the form of government we have.
Why should we change it to suit what Argentina thinks thats what we should have?
Your points are wrong, Spain gave you nothing.
lf you think that you“inherited”anything from Spain, then why don't you own most of South America which was Spanish also?
When are you going to“claim” Perú or Colombia etc.?
So sorry for you Stan, the Falklands are not yours despite what you learned at school.
@ 108 BJK
Jan 10th, 2012 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The heritage of Britain.
History - played a major role in defeating nazi Germany, Fascist italy and Japan in ww2. Stood up to the soviet union and watched it collapse. Numerous explorers came from here like Scott and Shackleton. Forged a great empire - then lost it. Defeated a murderous Junta's invasion of the Falklands in 1982.
Culture - pop music (from queen to oasis), classical (vaughn williams to Holst), popular TV shows exported all over the world. Writers like Dickens, Shackespeare, HG Wells, Jane Austin.
Science - the home of Isaac Newton, lord Kelvin, Rutherford, Turing, Whittle amonsgt many others.
A lot to be proud of.....Particularly the part about 1982.
Meanwhile as to claims about the Falklands - the Islands were still claimed by the UK when the United Provinces settlers arrived. Notification had been left behind to that effect.
Argentina is merely trying to claim a piece of territory that belonged to someone else before they arrived on the scene.
JuanStanic is right
Jan 10th, 2012 - 04:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0no case, kelpers, born to be puppets of a government is not interested of them, and that all he wants is a fixed carrier to control the South Atlantic, if the Panama Canal is blocked. But they do not realize that this great empire, nothing remains.
I would hang to the queen and demand freedom, but if you want to be Queen's plebeians is washed mind problem. No case.
Isolde, Argentina, liberate, Chile and Peru. But we dont dominate them, do not form colonies because they are our brothers. But we are moving even join in a united nation of Latin America, from Mexico to Ushuaia, this is our homeland. I recommend you study a little more Simon Bolivar, San Martin and the newly formed CELAC. We have a common culture and future. Think of the GDP of the whole in its population, in the union of policies together, and the union of armed forces. All support our cause.
The Malvinas are ARGENTINA, and Latin America, there is no justification for her Majesty has a government imposed by it, and that you continue there. you believe in God, we too, therefore we ask to justice.
So Malvinas=Argentina=Latin America
Jan 10th, 2012 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0and you call us imperialists
so how far up does this Latin American empire stretch then
all the way to Canada I suppose,
pot=kettle=black=you .
@115BJK,
Jan 10th, 2012 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Good luck in forming your new Argentine Empire. You're going to need it.
Unfortunately for you, we won't be part of it.
More certain is that Argentina will be ruled by Brazil.
Better brush up on your Portuguese, BJK.
Justice, ha! Argentina doesn't even know the meaning of the word.
l have read your history of your wars against Spain, you had many ex-British soldiers in your ranks.
ln the 19th century, British investment gave Argentina one of the highest standards of living in the world. You squandered that!
So you see, BJK, you owe us a lot. Because of us, your murderous junta lost power. lf you hadn't have lost in 1982 then the one-way flights over the seas would probably still be taking place.
And this is how you thank us, twisting history, lying & trying to steal our land.
You will never get these lslands & we will never trust you again.
And neither will the rest of Latin America,
Jan 10th, 2012 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Balata, claiming they are part of you,
Very distasteful .
@BJK 115
Jan 10th, 2012 - 11:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We have freedom. We actually get a vote you know (I always use mine). Look up what “constitutional monarchy” means before you start making daft statements in future.
Your post is very poorly thought through, particularly from a nation that has spent so much of time under military rule in recent memory. The suggestion of hanging was particularly sick.
I should'nt have been surprised though. Murder of political opponents has been an accepted part of your nations' daily life for so long, it will take a long time for you to grow out of it. Perhaps you should ask the Queen about good governance, a concept alien to CFK........
I myself quite like the idea of having a non-political head of state who can act as an ambassador for the UK and who embodies the traditions of our nation, as well as carrying out quite a busy schedule of public duties. You don't see the Queen grandstanding like CFK does. It would be beneath her dignity.
By the way - looks like your little alliance (all those 100s of millions of fanatical Malvinista South Americans from Brazil, Chiled and Uruaguay) is'nt really so sure about backing you up all that much. Looks like your on your own if you want to go for escalation. The whole blockade looks a little limp and sad now does'nt it.
Do you know who is the first person that born in Malvinas?
Jan 11th, 2012 - 05:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0She is an Argentine
her name is:
Malvina Vernet y Saez.
The first people born in the Falklands were French not Argentine:
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=Search&includedb=&lang=en&ti=&surname=&stype=Exact&given=&bplace=malouines&byear=&brange=0&dplace=&dyear=&drange=0&mplace=&myear=&mrange=0&father=&mother=&spouse=&skipdb=&period=All&submit.x=Search
the point is that she was born in 1830 and the British expelled from their land in 1833, together with all the people who had been living under the Argentine government since the 20's, before the island had been abandoned by the Spanish, French and british and the signing of free trade and friendship in the same decade, signed by Argentina and Uk, recognized throughout the territory
Vernet and his family were not in the Falklands in 1833. They had left in November 1831
And this is what international law says on recognition of a state:
Recognition of a state does not necessarily entail
recognition of all the territorial claims made by that state. But in every case
recognition or acquiescence by one state has little or no effect unless it is
accompanied by some measure of control over the territory by the other
state; failure to protest against a purely verbal assertion of title unsupported
by any degree of control does not constitute acquiescence
Argentina did not have any control of the Falklands in 1825
DONT EAT THE ROTTEN FISH!
Jan 11th, 2012 - 05:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0Many things i write are new for many islanders so is hard to recognize, because the british twist the history many years ago.
The first thing I ask you not to be literal with my posts, because they are full of ironic resources, “hang the Queen” means you do not listen to she and she represents the British state. I dont speak about murder, or do you want it?.
the first step to be taken is to recognize yourselves as Falkland Islanders, not British. And second is that you have limited freedom.
If you go to England many people do not know where you are and recognize the Falklands but with a conflict with Argentina. Do you think that you be part of British society? ask and you will realize that the case of the Falklands is more an act of pride and arrogance, for England against Argentina that you have really important to them. You think things naively, that in the metropolis are not so. It is an illusion. For England is more important, not humiliation against Argentina, which you. And more to be done all in the media paranoia, note that the issue in the British media is always related to Argentina. Harry's coming is not a message to you is a message for us, and so on. “You are the duck in the basket” for England, you are a puppet for them. You do not have any specific sector on the BBC website, the news are related with the conflict with Argentina and appear in Latin America sector.
it is no clear
and read this one... it sounds like Fidel's Cuba!
Freedom?
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/world/Falklands+rebel+citizen+shocked+at+British+fury+/-/1068/1186032/-/cypl3lz/-/index.html
@121: BJ
Jan 11th, 2012 - 10:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0“...because they are full of ironic resource...”
I think you may be overestimating yourself there.
“the first step to be taken is to recognize yourselves as Falkland Islanders, not British”
They recognise themsleves as both Falkland Islanders and British. There is no contradiction there (English British, Scots British, Gibraltarian British, etc).
I wish the Argentinian posters would make their minds up. One minute the Islanders are British “squatters”, the next minute they are Argentinian citizens, the next minute they are just Falkland Islanders. This seems to change to suit the argument. Please be consistent.
“Do you think that you be part of British society”
Absolutely no problem there. They are British after all. Not that non-British have any problem integrating either. The UK is one of the most multiculatural nations in the world. You would be hard pushed to find a single nationality that isn't part of British society.
“case of the Falklands is more an act of pride and arrogance, for England against Argentina ”
You have that the complete wrong way around. It has nothing to do with pride for the UK, apart from the pride the Islanders have in being British. For Argentina, it has a lot to do with pride (with a bit of greed for natural resources thrown in) and righting some perceived minor insult that happened two hundred years ago. This outdated sense of macho pride is used ad nauseum by the Argentinian government whenever they need to enhance their approval ratings. Time to grow up, take it on the chin and get over it.
Possibly a bit of perceived arrogance on the UK part, but it is always going to look like that to Argentina, because the UK holds all the cards.
121 BJK
Jan 11th, 2012 - 07:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You just overestimate yourself,
You are from a shrinking band of desperados,
A shrinking band of loony brothers who think the world belongs to them,
And happily this band of brothers is shrinking by the year,
Your turn will come.
@121 BJK
Jan 11th, 2012 - 07:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If I misunderstood you, I apologise, but that is what I genuinely thought that you meant. Try to be a bit more careful with your choice of words, it is easy to get the wrong idea about what you mean otherwise. This isn't meant as an insult, your English is OK, far better than my (non-existant) Spanish.
I have to say that I think that there is an element of pride about the Falklands in the UK. We are proud of liberating them from occupation by a murdering military dictatorship. Our cause was just and we prevailed. We are also proud of maintaining the freedom of the islanders today.
Whenever someone
Perhaps Argentina knows she is wrong, but to stubborn to admit it,
Jan 11th, 2012 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And what a country to come up against, great Britain,,,,
You wont back away, ,,rather than cannot,
You either talk your way out of it,
Or back off,
This time you have not only bitten of more than you can chew,
But it tastes awfully sour and you cant spit it out .
Just one comment about the “how” of the ousting of the Junta occurred, which I never understood how can such argument be made with a straight face by (some) British posters:
Jan 11th, 2012 - 09:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If, as almost everyone agrees, the Junta concocted the war in 82 because it was losing its grip do to internal problems brewing and the push for elections... how can the UK be responsible for it's ousting?
Had Argentina won, perhaps the Junta would have remained in power two or three extra years, but surely the economic and human rights situation would have pushed them off, specially when other juntas in countries in the region also began to fall anyhow (as it turns out, Argentina's was the first in 83).
But I digress. Had Argentina “won” the war somehow, would it be then fair to blame the UK for the Junta staying in power, and for any further deaths or dissapeared? Of course not, that would not make sense except as a blowhard aspersion against the UK, which has nothing to do with the internal politics of another country. No UK poster would accept such a charge.
Conversely, the Argentina's defeat may have hastened the Junta's demise, but it was not the CAUSE. Again, the war itself was an act of desperation (and many posters use this example even in today's bruhaha as CFK's own diversion from internal problems). So you can't have it both ways: can't say the war was the Junta being desperate, and then say that if not for the defeat the Junta would have stayed.
Respect for the dead that fought inside Argentina for democracy, please.
when you show respect for us.
Jan 12th, 2012 - 04:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0LOL mmm i dont understand you,
Jan 12th, 2012 - 03:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0you are british but in the real britain nobody knows who you are, you are kelpers but this is not a country, you say you are not Argentines
but you live in Argentina and in the Union of Latin American States and now your imaginary brittish little puppet state in not recognized in all America neighbourhood and many others countries, so you in this specific moment are in a black hole. Nobody understand, Personality Problems, because you dont recognize that you have a deep problem, that you dont want resolve, and put your head under the ground while our diplomacy advances to the end of this situation.
you talk about Argentina like we are 30 years ago, thing change over time, anyway i repeat the last link
www.nation.co.ke/News/world/Falklands+rebel+citizen+shocked+at+British+fury+/-/1068/1186032/-/cypl3lz/-/index.html
afterall is there freedom or not in Falkland/Malvinas? or you are violent people
What do you think about that article?
be honest, and dont pursuit our islanders that want to be argentines.
128 BJK
Jan 12th, 2012 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don’t understand you
[Why] we all understood her ,perfectly .
[You are British but in the real Britain nobody knows who you are
In the real world, nobody knows who you are either,
But collectively, the British are more widely known, that Argentina will ever be .
[kelpers but this is not a country, you say you are not Argentines
but you live in Argentina,,,,,
She DOES not live in Argentina, brainwashed,,,
She lives in the Falklands and wishes to remain British,
Is that simple enough for you to understand. [to keep believing that the world belongs to Argentina, is indoctrination, [is it not ]
// your imaginary British little puppet state in not recognized in all America]///
Does she really care,, the best and greatest country in the world recognises the Falklands, and that is all that matters .
//[ you talk about Argentina like we are 30 years ago ]
And Argentina still acts like a indoctrinated child,
[//after all is there freedom or not in Falkland/Malvinas? or you are violent people
1,better freedom, that your indoctrination , fool
2, Argentina is the violent one, argentine was the first to use violence,[was she not]
You people live in total indoctrination, you need to make friends with north korea,
You will make a good pair .
.
@128BJK,
Jan 12th, 2012 - 08:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0JP makes his own choices & will have to live with them.
He didn't look very happy when cfk was giving him his ld card!
Maybe he's only just realised what he's got himself into!
I translate a text from an article for you, i believe that this information is not read on the islands, and can be valuable, to order some thoughts and back what i wrote before.
Jan 13th, 2012 - 01:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0“It's funny, thousands of miles from England trying to preserve a nationalism that does not even exist in the land of our ancestors, he says.” And when one is traveling island with reality: the British do not really know who we are or where we are. A came to congratulate me so surprised by my good English. “I feel a proper place, not England. I have no nationalist sentiments, in any case, yes I am moved by the landscape of the islands to be there, alone in the end of the world, is a unique sensation.”
James Peck, first Argentine islander
full text (spanish):
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/170349-james-peck-un-pintor-de-malvinas-a-buenos-aires
I feel the same, the islands are beatiful, the sensation to be in the end of the world, the sound of wind and sea, i feel them mine, beyond any conflict and government. They are a part of me.
130 Isolde: he didn look very happy because he is afraid of the threats that were made after by the islanders, read the article i send you before.
Is very sad as a person for thinking differently and go to his own country is threatened by his own brothers, bad things happened here in our history, but that never happened and never would happen here if someone wants to go to his country.
bla bla
Jan 13th, 2012 - 02:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0124 shb (#)---- you did not misunderstand the insult, it was meant to be as it sounded that we hang our Queen and demand freedom. That's the trouble with this lot they write words that insult and then back of, putting it down to bad writing seeing that they are writing in another language. Scum.
Jan 13th, 2012 - 03:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please look this video, another example of the falklands government “freedom”. Do you know this person an his history. Do you really can publicate something against the government without be being censured or lose your job?
Jan 13th, 2012 - 03:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Reflect and what do you think about that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b04LxdCUZbk
*footnote 133 in spanish we say “colgar / hang” the telephone,
How do you say?
quite ofter they insult, then make out they no knot,
Jan 13th, 2012 - 07:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0dont say sorry, uneducated or just ignorent.
........................
LOL, Briton just relax guy!
Jan 14th, 2012 - 02:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0take a deep breath, uhhhh ... ahhh ... uuhhhhh ....ahhh :-0 :-| :-0 :-|
you make me fun every day!
thank you!
there is little difference between you and us ... us? for the reason ..! you ..? by force ...! and think that Roger Waters concerts will be 8 70,000 fans at each concert in March Argentine 540,000 this year ..... go to him and pay the entrance to see it (bear that you would represent 0.07 of that amount? or less ..? can it be? I wrong?). I feel sorry for the few British-islanders resent ...!
Jan 14th, 2012 - 06:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0@131BJK,
Jan 14th, 2012 - 10:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0l'd say that James Peck looks miserable because cfk has just asked him to pick which slum or shantytown he wants to live in.
l doubt very much that any Falklander would even be bothered to travel to Argentina just to beat him up.
A ring A ring of Argies,
Jan 14th, 2012 - 12:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A pocket of Argies
Atishoo Atishoo they all fall down
Relax with a galaxy one square or two .
l'd say that James Peck looks miserable because cfk has just asked him to pick which slum or shantytown he wants to live in
Jan 14th, 2012 - 01:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sure Isolde,there are olenty of them in the uk.....
What garbage you are isolde.....
MALVINAS ARGENTINAS,that is the future!
errr... I think Briton, needs doping control.
Jan 14th, 2012 - 05:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0relax lad! it will make you ill.!
138 Isolde... LOL ma'am, or he was thinking in Ladywood in Birmingham, where is his brothers
Do you know? JP, has an art school here now. It would be interesting to take some classes with he. Bs.As. has lots of cultural and art action.
Did you come to Buenos Aires once or watch some pictures or videos?
I think you do not know what it is. In the limits of this city C.A.B.A. we have similar life conditions to an Europe city, ask some british tourist. Or come here some day i will take you a tour, you are welcome (if you live in the islands... hurry up! before flights to mainland will be closed)
LOL, Briton just relax guy
Jan 14th, 2012 - 11:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We are relaxed,
We are not the ones who are desperate, panicking, and deluded,
Your problem is, you have no senses of humour, just like the Argies,
Oh sorry, you are one.
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