MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Cristina Fernandez on Independence Day calls for unity and support for the economic model
Argentine President Cristina Fernández made a strong call to unity and to defend the economic model during the main celebrations of the 196th anniversary of the Argentine Declaration of Independence held at San Miguel de Tucumán. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rules”She celebrated moreover the end of arrears of the 2001/02 default when the Argentine collapsed, saying all debt was going to be “paid off by August 21st”.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 06:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0Lol! Paris club anyone? Among others.......
And there's nothing like replicating your dead husbands failed economic model eh? Maybe if Argentina defaults again it can have another 9 odd years of growth with no debt....
yes some people I know do that here too...they buy all they can...max out credit cards and do not pay them....and they are so lucky than many times than other than the repo people, credit cards companies only screw with your FICO score...same with Argentina.....
Jul 10th, 2012 - 06:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yeah Argentine as a country created by colonialism gets the right of self determination but the Falklands another place also created by colonialism does not. Yeah makes perfect sense!
Jul 10th, 2012 - 06:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well if you believe the 196 years since independence, that means that the Falklanders are only 16 years younger than Argentina.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 07:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0However, it is actually 196 years since the Spanish colonists around the River Plate area declared independence. Thes colonists spent an awful lot of time in fighting to create their own countries after this declaration, and provinces swapped allegiance regularly, so no 'countries' existed in South America for quite some time afterwards.
Spain, the mother country, didn't formally recognise Argentina as an independent country until the 1850's, which makes the Falklanders 20 years or more older than Argentina.
Another irony is that Britain recognised Argentina's independence before Spain did in the 1840's, but that still gives the Falklanders 10 years or more on them.
But Argentina couldn't truly be recognised internationally until Spain gave up all claims to its former colonies, as until then, the Spanish could've sent troops to retake what they considered their own territory.
It's a pity they don't teach that in Argentine schools, isn't it?
However, CFK is fooling herself if she thinks 'independence' day, which isn't even a special year (196?), will align the disparate groups with her. If anything it's more likely to unite them against her as they remember their forefathers rising up against an authoritarian government. Who knows maybe history will repeat itself? :0)
@4
Jul 10th, 2012 - 07:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0You're absolutely right Mr LEPRecon The world is sadly misinformed about colonialism. To the point were trying to present it in a positive light is seen as racist, imperialist, evil and morally unacceptable. Ah the blessings of political correctness!
China’s model of authoritarian capitalism is encouraging populist leaders in the wrong direction. They take whatever economic policies with entire disregard for fiscal responsibility and basic economic concepts. By clamping down on dollars, raising import duties, and running the economy on outdated ideological principles, these countries are only crippling their own economy and making it more and more difficult to ever change their system to a free and consumer led, rule-of-law-driven, open economy.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 08:54 am - Link - Report abuse 04 Leprecon
Jul 10th, 2012 - 09:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0I don't think any SA nation bases their independence day on the date you guys decided they were so.
As a matter of fact, we don't really care when you date our independencies, you are free to put any date, any date at all. That doesn't change a single fact :)
Our independence days are the very same days WE chose to be independent, not the days you “accepted” us :)
“The Argentine Model”
Jul 10th, 2012 - 09:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Does she mean the reocurring “achievements” ?
Hyperinflation 1989
Default 2001
Hyperinflation + default (2013-14 ?)
We are relatively early this time...
@ 7 Guzz
Jul 10th, 2012 - 09:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's a fiar point you make Guzz. I think that Islanders are making a very similar one...
9
Jul 10th, 2012 - 09:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0They would, if it wasn't for a bunch of invasive brits with suspicious agendas...
Panic, panic....we must stay together...panic, panic......I'm a poor widow-woman etc.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 09:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0The problem is CFKC is out of her depth. She has no clue what to do long term so makes short-term disasterous decisions whilst clinging to Nester's 'model' like it is the Ten Commandments. He probably would have adapted as he saw it wasn't working but she doesn't know what the hell to do.
“The economic model” - funny name, but I suppose “death spiral” was already taken.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 11:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0@12 There are a number of features that you need to take into account. First of all, it's a “model”, i.e. it's not “the real thing”. Secondly, being from argieland, it crawls backwards with a limp. Then you have to ask whether CFK can see out of her backside. Turning her head is not an option, it would drop off. Finally, you need to bear in mind that CFK's knowledge of “economics” is limited. Primarily, it is based on her childhood when she was taught “home economics”. Then she spent a number of years under the tutelage of “Nestor the Nice” learning how to buy up state land at knock-down prices and then sell it at inflated prices. But she has got one thing “right”. She's making a fortune!
Jul 10th, 2012 - 01:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LePricon is the perfect model of a European, which as everyone knows I have been arguing for some time. Finally it came out, that “substrate of ethnic/cultural supremacism”
Jul 10th, 2012 - 01:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0According to Lepricon's very humble europeanist-thinking “Argentina is only independent when we Europeans decide to recognize you”. I guess the thousands of dead Argentine heroes in the War of Independence which KICKED SPAIN out by 1813 are meaningless dead, I guess the hundreds of dead civilians (not Spanish troops), repelling two British takeover attempts are meaningless dead, I guess the Crossing of the Andes, one of the great military feats of the last 200 years is meaningless...
All that counts is the UK and Spanish deciding to vouchsafe you “recognition”.
Now everyone knows why I dispise Europeans. Not only are they utterly wrong in argument, they are proud to be and in your face.
Advice to Lepricon: We decide when we are independent, not losers like you. We are 202, Argentina does not celebrate independence day as our beginning as a country. I'm just letting you know (again), your acceptance or refusal of this fact is completely irrelevant.
11
Jul 10th, 2012 - 01:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is CFK a lustful woman in your opinion ?
#15.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ lustful”?
How about demented and greedy?
THE LEGACY OF A GREAT WOMAN.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 02:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Beyond the total lack of intellectual honesty of some of the ignorants who publish comments here everyday, who only hate c. f. k and insult her. Those people who don't want to recognize that despite some negative aspects that her government has, she made a lot for the country, like just a few did presidents in 200 years of history. I have no doubt that the best legacy that c. f. k can leave to us, is her bravery, not any president would do what she does. Only a brave woman like her makes front the most powerfull corporations of the country, which have always conditioned all the presidents, and made fall the governments of the leaders who weren't functional to their interests, provoking financial coup d' etats, or militar dictatorship.
Anyway there is a lot to do yet, because still we are a very unequal society, and it will take many years to solve the structural poverty that we still have in the country. On the other hand, i dont deny the contradictions that her government has, and the denounces of corruption cases, but allthough the justice determines that some of her ministers committed corruption acts, nothing will change the fact that she made a lot for us, specially when she took decisions that broke with the neoliberal sistem which sank argentina in the lowest undervelopment, and became the country in the backyard of the u. s. a. For all these reasons, i have no doubt that she will be remembered by most us, not only as a good president, but as a great woman, which is the most important.
@14 - Tobias, try getting my name right and...
Jul 10th, 2012 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stop talking sh!te you product of European colonialism!
International law (such as it was in the 19 century) meant that Argentina wasn't recognised as independent from the motherland (Spain), until the 1850's. This meant that Spain could have tried to retake the 'rebelling' colonies by any means necessary.
The fact is that Britian recognised the independence of the Spanish colonies more than a decade before Spain did, thus giving these former colonists legitimacy. I mean I could declare my home county independent from the rest of the country tomorrow, but it means NOTHING unless it is internationally recognised. You show your ignorance by not knowing this simple fact of international law.
And face it, in the 19 century European countries were the most powerful countries on earth at that time, so getting recognised by them would've been of paramount importance. For example, the USA being recognised by the French and so on.
However 196 years ago, the former colonies declared their independence, but spent the next half century or more fighting each other for territory, so technically they weren't independent countries at that point, as they hadn't even sorted out their borders yet, let alone set up proper countries with constitutions.
So Tobias, get off your European hating horse as you, your country, the language you speak are ALL of European origin.
#17
Jul 10th, 2012 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well at least CFK has accomplished doing are far more succesful job of destroying the Argentinian economy than María Estela Martínez Cartas de Perón did. Both have earned their rightful positions in infamy...
#18
Actually, Tobias is not 100% European origin. He speaks the distinct language of what exits from the arse of a guanaco.
@17
Jul 10th, 2012 - 03:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well, she is setting records. Argentina has now overtaken Venezuela as the country with the highest inflation in South America. Looking forward to seeing an “inflation-off” between Chavez and KFC to see who can be top of the tree by the end of the year. Fingers crossed that everyone gets behind “The Model” and Argentina wins...
The Peronist economic model is inflation, devaluation, destruction of the middle class and riches for political cronies.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 03:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The Model”?? - Guess which province in Argentina gives its congressmen 57,000 pesos a month? It is not Buenos Aires province, but it is a K-supported province. A hint - one of the poorest provinces, with one of the highest unemployment figures in Argentina.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Brave? CFKC is barking MAD, not brave.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 04:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@19
Jul 10th, 2012 - 04:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The same thing that exits out of our arse. You saw it when I was visiting your restroom assignment at Grisu, Chichureo.
Arg Peso is 7/1 in Uruguay! Yeah el modelo is working just fine!
Jul 10th, 2012 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Axel, The teacher who doesn't know how to do simple math, thinks she is doing a great job! I wonder if he is striking with the rest of the BA teachers tomorrow because the gov't missed a couple payrolls? Axel do you remember me telling you this would happen? Come on do you?
Axel do you realize your salary is now worth U$ 471/mo now? Pretty hard to keep yourself clean on that grand sum. How do you do it?
Thank god for 'Independence'. I mean imagine if the locals had to continue speaking the same language and practicing the same culture, religion, politics, law etc etc as the colonilizers as if not they would have been heavily persecuted.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thank god the sons of the colonisers felt guilt for inheriting stolen property from their fathers and thus fought for Independence´ in order to hand the land back to the original inhabitants before going back to their motherland.
Thank god it wasnt because the sons of the colonisers were simply aggrieved at sending their riches and taxes from their new home back to the motherlands monarchy and politicians in faraway Europe.
@18
Jul 10th, 2012 - 05:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you a fool? Do you know what independence means in this context?
Let's go back to 3rd grade: it means having full say in your own affairs.
Argentina has had that since the Battle of San Lorenzo in 1813.
Your recognition is IRRELEVANT, since we self-governed and you had no say whatsoever, be it the UK, Spain, France, etc, in our government and laws. Zero influence or effect. That is independence my friend.
Everything else is you and your ignorant little mind.
Argentina “recognizes” its sovereignty over the Falklands... how is that working out for us?
Same applies here. You can shout all day about international recognition, it is meaningless if you were powerless to do anything about it.
@14 Funny little TiT. All argie dead are meaningless. Who cares when scum die? You are, at best, fertiliser. And, by the way, you are NOTHING until you are “recognised”. And only then to the extent that WE decide. Try to understand, your predecessors were failures in Europe so they ran away to South America. Where they have failed again, except as imperialist, colonialist genocides. Not worth much. Except as fertiliser.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 05:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@17 Congratulations. You are now, officially, ONE OF THE GREATEST PRICKS IN THE WORLD.
@24 Home from home, was it? “TiT: My home is a khazi.”
#24
Jul 10th, 2012 - 05:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is that the best you can do?
And why pick on a bathroom attendant? It's a honest job, not like the CFK thieves that are plundering Argentina.
The poor are getting the short end of the stick and are suffering, we should not demean them.
@28
Jul 10th, 2012 - 05:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“All argie dead are meanlingless”.
All living Brits are meaningless (well, that is until they all come here and apologize for your remarks, which I'm sure they will not... even when they get so solemn when some Falklands anniversary is remembered and they SWEAR to respect the dead).
We became everything when we decided to, end of story, sadly for you. Powerless little people back in radiation Europe that could not take (or retake) a country with (back then) 1/10 the population.
By reading this blog I just remember a few lines from Sting's songs....“your economic theory makes no sense”.....and....“heavy clouds, but no rain”....
Jul 10th, 2012 - 05:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0CHICUREO. WELSH WIZARD. YANKEEBOY. ELAINE B.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 05:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Don't worry guys, i didn't expect any ample or intelligent analysis from you. Like all the mediocre people does, you often make analysis which are too partial, in order to tell only what is convenient for you, because you aren't interested in thinking, you just want to hate, that's why the hate that you feel for c. f. k doesn't let you have enough intellectual honesty to recognize that she made a lot for the country too. In my case, allthough i support many of the decisions that she took, i have never denied all the problems that we still have, like the inflation, structural poverty and corruption, but if i were as mediocre and mipoyc as you are, i woudn't recognize absolutly anything of what c. f. k did for the country, like you do.
Regarding inflation, i have said in planty of oportunities that it will take many years to be solved, because the problem is related to the huge economic concentration that we have in the most important sectors of the economy, and it's related to the lack of financial support to the productive sectors. Most banks give credicts for the craving of different goods only, and not many of them give financial support to the enterprises. But now it's going to change, because after the reform of the central bank, the banks will be forced to borrow money to the enterpises, and i agree absolutly with that decision, the banks won huge summes of money thanks to the policies of this government, so, like them or not, they will have to learn to borrow.
Respecting the strike that the teachers from the province are going to do, it's nothing new the fact that the governor isn't a good administrator in absolut, thats' why i have never voted him. Anyway, all those ignorants who think that the provincial administration will pay in patacones shortly, let me tell you that it was rejected absolutly by the governor, but as usuall, you confuse your own wishes with the reality.
Comment removed by the editor.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 06:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Province of Cordoba is floating a U$50MM bond to try to make salaries and pay suppliers until the next Fed gov't infusion. Isn't that called a payroll loan?
Jul 10th, 2012 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hard to run anything when your revenues are up 8% but expenses are up 40%...can't keep that up for very long.
Patacones are on the way little Axel
brr
Dont forget that neither this web site nor alleged British side comments does never represent the Britain point.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 032
Jul 10th, 2012 - 07:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dont care them,
They must discuss first own Britain related articles , dont they !
This shows us their (alleged) rudeness,coarseness,imperitinence,
ribaldry and misbehaviour(in British accent)
32
Jul 10th, 2012 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In other words,
Many many of these comments are written to put out of feeler(feel to pulse)
from either British or American sides.(allegedly !)
Axel you are wrong on so many levels it is hard to know where to start. I had the same problem with Toby last week.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 09:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Inflation is very simple to understand and I am sure you deal with it on a daily basis.
Last year when we chatted about your salary you were VERY happy with your 18% raise, now you make what $3300/mo? Well you got an 18% raise over your baseline salary from 2 years ago but inflation has gone up about 50% in that time. How do you feel now?
What happens next year when there are are no raises and they have to lay off people because tax reveue is LESS THAN THE INFLATION FIGURE! I told you this would happen. It is only going to get worse.
I bet the CFK's brilliant solution will be to print even faster and even more pesos. 7/1 will look great in a year.
Devaluation...hyperinflation...depression...those are the RG signposts on the road to ruin.
If i were you I would buy laundry detergent, sugar, coffee, dry soup NOW. It will be worth a lot more than the pesos will be very soon.
5 Hours later... not one Brit apologized for Conqueror's comments (when we know a few DOZEN have read it already). Just as I predicted. And I will keep pointing this out.
Jul 10th, 2012 - 10:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But I'm no genious or mantic, I won't brag this time about being smarter. Its just simply the Brittttish darn way :)
Rented militants? And when the $$$$ has run down who will say that they voted?
Jul 11th, 2012 - 01:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0I think Axel has a quite balanced view of his President and his country. Of course there is some corruption in the Argentine government, but that exists in USA and UK as well.
Jul 11th, 2012 - 05:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0Also given the current scandal about the Libor rate perhaps British responders should be a little less self rightous.
Argentina has actually made quite a lot of economic/social progress in the Nestor/Cristina era. Of course they could improve their policies but every country could. In particular I think Argentina has too many trade disputes with other countries.
I think they should settle at least the disputes with other South American nations by accepting the terms of nations such as Brazil, Uruguay etc.
Rollo1066 (#) - Of course there is corruption in every government, but that of the present Argentina is the worst that I have ever seen. This corruption has made the poor classes even worse than ever; eventually they will see the truth of the matter.
Jul 11th, 2012 - 05:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0#11 Its you who are out of your depth trying to comment on politics
Jul 11th, 2012 - 11:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0#17 Brilliant axel, simply brilliant. A great woman indeed =)
corruption corruption british with sofisticated methods, in arg more silly ones
Jul 11th, 2012 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0but all corrupts
www.lanacion.com.ar/1489492-sube-la-contrataron-por-un-millon-de-pesos-pero-nunca-se-entero
YANKEEBOY.
Jul 11th, 2012 - 02:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Unfortunatelly, you insist on confusing your own wishes with the reality, like all the mediocre people do, i understand that it's difficult to ask you to think, but it's not difficult to ask you to search more and better information.
It's really amazing how you make fun at the problems of my country, and pretend to give us economic and moral lessons, like if your u. s. a were living in a constant prosperity, do you remember where all this hard crisis started?, i do, thats' why the day that you have unless one line of intellectual honesty, you'll be able to recognize that you have been very missinformed and making analysis which were too partial.
I already explained you about the reasons of the inflation in argentina, i won't explain them again. On the other ahnd, when i tell about the rases in my country, i dont take into account only the salaries of the teachers, i mean most salaries of the workers in the argentina, thats' why i say that most rases aren't lower than 20%. This year, we are going to have a lower economic expansion, because of the global crisis, and it was already knowm, thats' why the inflation level will be lower, beside, you are missinformed, as usuall, because our salaries won't be lower this than 20% year.
@R0llo1066
Jul 11th, 2012 - 07:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I dont think any poster here denies there is corruption in their countries. There clearly is.
I would say tho the clear difference between Argentina and the UK for example is the FREQUENCY of corruption incidents, its ACCEPTANCE in everyday life and the degree of prosecutions and repercussions once corruption has been exposed.
Its a common trick by Argentine nationalists to highlight other countries faults and to talk about issues in absolute terms rather than relative terms. -Your country has corruption too!- Yes and so what? The question is how bad is it in comparison to the other? Not whether there is corruption or not.
Can somebody please direct me to a precise definition of “the [Argentine] administration’s economic model” ?
Jul 12th, 2012 - 04:37 am - Link - Report abuse 047 St.John (#)
Jul 12th, 2012 - 05:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, it works like this:
CFK: Here is the tax money for this month.
Argentine People: Oh good. What are you going to do with it?
CFK: 1 for me, 1 for you, 2 for me, 1for you, 3 for me.....
@ 48 Simon68 :-D :-D
Jul 12th, 2012 - 06:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The generic formula is:
Now I get the big one, you get the small one,
now you get the small one, I get the big one,
and now I get the big one, you get the small one
...
The question is seriously meant.
I want to see what the model is - provided there is an actual model and not just a fairytale of a model.
Can somebody please direct me to a precise definition of “the [Argentine] administration’s economic model” ?
49 St.John (#)
Jul 13th, 2012 - 02:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To be quite honest, I don't think there is a planned “model”, from what I can see and perceive, the whole thing seems to be based on impulse, the famous local phrase is “llenando baches” in other words putting fingers into the holes until finally the dyke gives way and we all drown!!!
@ 50 Simon68
Jul 14th, 2012 - 01:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0I am afraid you are right - and it pains me, because I actually like a lot of Argentinos, have a zillion friends in Mendoza from when I lived there, and also the country itself (the provinces, that is - most porteños you can keep for yourself :)
- and I am not alone with that notion; I noticed in the collectivos in Mendoza that if there was a porteño in the bus, many menducos sat with their arms crossed in front of the chest, looking enojado :)
The model, or el modelo exists, the problem is that there will always mediocre people who don't have any intellectual honesty, and won't recognize that despite the contradictions and some negative aspects that c. f. k has in her government, there is a lot to celebrate too.
Jul 14th, 2012 - 08:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The explanation about the model is too long and complicated, but i will try to make a short vertion.
In 9 years of kirchnerism, planty of argentine people could improve a lot their life standart, in fact in 2003, there was a 53% of poor people, and 22% of unemploit people, now there is a 9% of poor people (according to the indec, but according to independent indexes from others provinces, it's 18%), and there is a 7,2% of unemploit people.
Beside, we could recover our economic autonomy, due to in 2005 we could cancell the debt with the imf, and continue paying our debts, in fact the percentage between public and private debt represents the 33%, of the whole national production, which is an insignificant percentage, in 2003 it represented the 160%. Beside, the government continues making a huge inverstments in science and technology, in 2007 it was created the ministry of science and technology, on the other hand, the government offered more than 800 scientists who were working in others countries, to return to argentina. There are also civil rights which were voted by the concgress, like gay marriage, ley de identidad de genero, muerte digna, etc etc. There are many others social achievemnets that we could get since 2003, specially for the retired people and for the poorest sectors of the society. On the other gand, the government is reindustrializing more and more the country, and continues accumulating reserves at the central bank, which protect us from the financial coup d' etats that the most powerfull corporations tried to make in different oportunities, in order to make fell c. f. k's government.
Anyway there are also denounces of corruption cases and inflation, there is a lot more to say.
@ 52 axel arg
Jul 14th, 2012 - 11:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0what you write is a list of consequences of the economical policies since 2003 - OK (except I question e.g. reindustrialisation, re. export to get an import license - that's suicidal for capital goods), but far from an economical model and certainly not new to me - was in BsAs in 2002 and has followed development since.
If an economical model does exist, it must exist as a formal, consistent description of goals and means.
I haven't been able to find such a description, which is what I want to read and make my own evaluation (I once spent 2 years studying national economy under prof. Stephenson, so I have some idea of how the model ought to be for Argentina).
What I observe is a country, which possesses enormous resources per capita and an impressing level of mismanagement of the resources, which keeps the country in a very sad state. I observe some progress, but far from what it ought to be - too many speeches, too little action except to line own pockets.
An example: The huge amounts of cargo, which has to be moved intercity and from one end of the country to the other go by truck, following a coima based reduction of a widespread network of railroads.
I know from experience the Turkish economical model, which - very, very, very briefly described - said
Goal: 30 years hence an affluent first world nation, powerty below x%, high level of literacy, highly skilled workforce, educated scientists, efficient infrastructure, facilities, (addd many more goals).
Means: Ignore short term benefits to gain long term benefits, finance development through a high level of inflation, but use a high level of unemployment to limit inflation to 100% per 2 years. Constant micro/mini adjustments to stay on target ... (addd many more means).
In the end Turkey had achieved the majority of their goals and cut inflation by converting 1.000.000 lira to 1 new lira.
I am still hoping for somebody to direct me to a precise description of the Argentine economic model.
S.T JOHN.
Jul 15th, 2012 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Like i said in my last comment, the explanation about the argentine model is too long and complicated, anyway for what i read in your comment, i think that allthough i explain you everything about the changes that happened in argentina, we won't agree respecting this issue, because of a matter of different ideologies.
I dont deny all the problems that we still have, like the inflation level, the structural poverty, and the lack of financial support to the enterprices which is the most important. But, unfortunatelly you have no more than the usuall partial view about argentina, which is tipical in the european nations.
The problems that we still have, will take many years to be solved, like the inflation level. All the orthodox economists, who many of them are just lobbysts of powerfull corporations, argue all the time that it's necesary to diminish the public expenditures, but they all omit about the huge economic concentration that we have in the most important sectors of the economy, and omit also about the lack of financial support to the enterprices. Most banks give credicts mostly for the craving of different goods, but just a few of them give financial support to the enterprices, which create jobs and export. That's why it was necesary to reform the charter of the central bank, now all the banks will be forced to give financial support to the enterprices, otherwise, they will be sanctioned. On the other hand, the average of the salaries of the workers in argentina are not only the highest of latin america, they also have the highest power of acquisition, despite the inflation level that we have. But the 34% of the workers are undocumented, so, they dont have any social safe, in 2003 that percentage was 50%, all this shows that we are still a very unequeal society, that's why there is a lot to do for our people.
@ 54 axel arg
Jul 15th, 2012 - 09:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have been living in Argentina, so my perspective is not, as you think, “no more than the usuall partial view about argentina”.
I have about 80 Argentino friends and acquaintances, ranging from one very rich to several humildes. My perspective is based on reading Argentine economic history since my first visit in 2002 and their world views and experiences.
I don't expect anyone to explain the Argentine economical model in a blog post.
Any sensible national economical model is published for “outside” experts can comment on it and suggest improvements.
As I wrote, what I hope for is somebody to direct me to the official specification of the model - hablo argentino-castellaño - where I can read and then analyse it.
BTW: When you write “the average of the salaries of the workers in argentina are not only the highest of latin america, they also have the highest power of acquisition”, you should visit Chile (where I have lived for a couple of years) and see for yourself where one finds the highest average standard of living in SA.
#53 Sounds like Turkey's inflation was much worse than Argentina's now, under a model you seem to support! “Using unemployement” to do anything is anathema to the left, and yet under Cristina even her worst enemies say inflation is only 30% per year, ie well under 100% per 2 years!
Jul 16th, 2012 - 12:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0S.T JOHNS.
Jul 16th, 2012 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I wasn't wrong when i said that allthough i make an ample explanation about our economic model, you were not going to agree with it, i respect your ideology, but i think very different than you.
If you want somebody to give you the official specification of the model, in one phrase, it would be, modelo de desarrollo económico y social sustentable (sustainable economic and social model of development), anyway, like i told you in my last comment, beyond all the social achievements that we could get, we are still a very unequal society, which shows that there is still a lot to improve in our country.
On the other hand, when you tell about chile, there is where i conffirm that we have ideological differences, i dont deny that chile has a huge middle class, and it's society has high standart of life. But you omit that the distribution of the national rent, is much more unequal than in argentina, public education and health almost dont exist, students have to pay for their universitary education along 15 years, because they must get credits in order to pay their studies at private universitiaries, because there are not almost public universitaries, in fact in our U. B. A (universidad de buenos aires), we have a lot of chilean students and from others latin countries, and it's a proud for many of us. Anyway i respect the fact that for those economists who have a neoliberal thought, chile is always chosen like the best example, but for people who are leftist like me, it's not in absolut the best example of economic and social model that argentina needs, in fact, we already had that model during the decade of the 90's, which finished dramaticly with the crisis between 1998 and 2002, we dont have to commit the same mistakes again. For me, the best examples of social economic and social developments, are the northern european nations.
@ 56 British_Kirchnerist
Jul 16th, 2012 - 06:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 57 axel arg
Singling out the level of inflation is one eyed, use both eyes: inflation *and* what was gained by it.
Because of the enormous human and social cost I did not support the Turkish economical model, but I do acknowledge it's positive outcome.
I observed it progress, saw more than 30 years of severe suffering but also how conditions improved slowly after the first, say, 15 years, then faster and faster after 25-30 years.
It only worked because each government, whether it was left, center or right, followed the precise plan with no abrupt changes.
What I observe in Argentine economy are abrupt - and what looks like ad hoc - shifts from one principle to another, and old mistakes committed again and again, which is why I am asking where I can find a precise description of the model.
Two examples (2.000 limit):
1. For the last 5-6 years the government have defended the peso against the US dollar, spending large sums of much needed foreign currency and also severely reducing Argentina's industrial competitiveness - that reminds me of 1998-2001.
2. Within a very short time it was decided to nationalise YPF.
If this was the right decision, it should have been carried out in late spring providing 8 months to stabilise the situation, and not immediately before winter set in.
If this was the wrong decision, it should have stayed a threat as the basis for renegotiating the contract in Argentina's favor.
The Scandinavian model(s) - they differ slightly - only work because each of the populations have an inner feeling of being a member of a closely knit tribe, where somebody who lives far away is considered your cousin x times removed, thus each citizen feels a responsibity towards each other citizen.
I doubt it will be possible to use it in an immigrant country like Argentina until every single citizen stops thinking of himself as an Italian-Argentino, German-Argentino, Spanish-Argentino, etc. - in, say, 40-50 years.
S. T. JOHN.
Jul 17th, 2012 - 01:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I conffirm one more time that your anaysis are too partial. You blame only the government for the inflation, and dont say absolutly anything about the huge econmic concentration that we have in the most important sectors of the economy, due to the most powerfull corporations abuse of their power, and increase the prices of the products, instead of making enough inverstments, beside, you didnt say anything either about the lack of financial support to the enterprices, which is the most important, just a few banks borrow money, but they do it mostly to the most influential enterprices. Anyway, i dont deny that maybe the government committted mistakes too, but we can't blame only the government for the inflation level, if what we have, is an economy which is mostly oligopolic and where many of the most powerfull enterprices are foreign.
Respecting the nationalization of ypf, it was necesary to do it, because repsol hadn't done enough inverstments, thats' why we lost reserves of oil and gas, anyway the government has also a huge responsability in this question, because nestor and crsitina kirchner used to support the petersen group. On the other hand, i must recognize that since the nationalization of the enterprice, now there is true sustainable project for ypf, in fact, for the first time in years, it's forecasted that in 2012, the production will have an expansion of 3%.
Like i said in my last comment, allthough i respect your opinion, it was obvious that we weren't going to agree respecting all this issue, because of our ideological differences.
Regarding the escandinavian model, i only say that some of it's aspects might be applied to argentina, i mean a deeper intervention of the state, which is one the bases of it's high life standart.
axel arg
Jul 17th, 2012 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If it was necessary to nationalise YPF, then it was the right thing done at the wrong time, immediately before winter, leaving no time to make YPF work better.
Of course there were many subjects I didn't address, impossible because of the 2.000 char limit.
Good luck to you and Argentina - you'll need it.
S. T JOHN.
Jul 18th, 2012 - 01:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thank you for your wishes, but we need is not only luck, what we need is to continue developing this project. However in your europe, if the governments continue cutting salaries, and the budges of healt and education, your politic leaders will need a huge luck in order to have the oportunity to finish their administrations, just remember what happened here on dicember 2001. I really hope, and wish that you dont have to live the same terrible an dramatic moments that we lived that year and after.
Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!