MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Argentina will formally protest vandalism at the Darwin cemetery in Falklands
Argentina repudiated the ‘profanation’ of the hermitage at the Darwin cemetery in the Falklands/Malvinas Islands, which holds the graves of Argentine combatants who lost their lives during the 1982 conflict. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesA grave offence indeed.... if they catch the sad individual that did I imagine he will in his defence that he was provoked.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0Mind you it may have been the work of an RG agent provoceture(sp).... as it gives the mad woman yet another chance to bang on... “It is also necessary that the British government ceases to ignore UN decisions and blah blah etc etc”
Whoever did it is totally out of order but:
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0No-one knows who did it so it could be an islander or it caould be a false flag operation by the Argentinians to stir up their people;
No graves were broken and merely the glass of the Virgin Mary case and not the Virgin Mary statue itself;
This has no link to milirisation of the Falklands and the people responsible for raising tensions are Mrs Kirhner and her merry crew
This is a police matter about vandalism - the fact that they are making it into an issue about submarines makes me wonder if it was another Argentine exploit.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Could we please have an edit facility as I am fed up of making errors and not being able to correct them!
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0If it was an individual that did this they need to be brought to justice and their actions condemned. However, it is extremely sad that Argentina continues to attempt to make political capital out of their war dead.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0What makes me particularly suspicious about this is that the statuette behind the glass remaind intact. That is not the mentality of your typical vandal who would probably have played football with it.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0They will have to put up CCTV I suppose.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Still it is interesting that the Argentine government thinks it is okay to fund the desecration of a British/Falkland war memorial and then refuse to accept that it was wrong but that an act of mindless vandalism by an unknown person or persons now being looked for by the local police is worthy of the UN.
I think that the Argentine agent provocateur idea is an interesting one though. It will be interesting to watch this story pan out.
I'd love to see Robert Ressler cast his eye across this crime scene. It simply doesn't add up.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0This is a crime by an individual/individuals and not a state sponsored crime unlike that of the infamous clandestine (this word gets a lot of use!) argentine pre-olympic patriot video. Find those responsible and punish them. As for letters to the UN, what are they playing at, better off writing to the lead singer of 'Echo and the Bunnymen' .
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0@6
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0I don't understand this either: as you say when this has sadly happened to overseas British war graves in the past there has been an attempt to permanently damage graves, graffiti slogans etc. However the idea of vandalising a memorial or burning a flag is completely alien to me, so who am I to understand the thought process of whatever idiot did this.
The focus should be on finding the perpetrators.
It is a bit of a shame that the Argentine government have sought to make political capital out of this: it does mean some people will make the obvious link that they are the only people who could possibly benefit, and had preciously threatened to try to disrupt the London Olympics with protests over the Falklands.
The more they bleat, the more they incriminate themselves.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0The damage was minimal and this could all be sorted out with minimal fuss. The more CFK makes of this, the more likely that it is that they had a hand in it.
Well I disagree whole heartedly with the false flag op, it's nothing more than a very pissed of and probably drunk islander....Given the bull shit, insults and sheer belligerence of the Argie govt it was only a matter of time before the Argie govt created such ill will that the normally tolerant and friendly nature of the islanders broke and the nearest symbol of their oppressors was attacked.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0I hope the culprit is caught and relasises that the/she has handed those nut jobs across the water the biggest propaganda coup since Bingham/Morecrap wrote his dreadful book in Argentina...
Up to now we Brits have had the moral high ground we ejected an Argentine military invasion and buried their dead respectfully. Now suddenly we are on the back foot because some lunatic has damaged the burial ground. If one of us did it I invite them to confess and apologise to the honoured dead in public. That would be the only honourable way out of it. If however this was an Argentine operation then we should get Scotland yard in to assist the Falkland police with all the S.O.C.O. support you need in a modern crime investigation.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0I love this:-
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Argentina also demands that the UK immediately clears the incident through an impartial investigation that identifies and punishes those responsible of such a grave offence that attacks the sacredness of the cemetery.”
Tell me, if you can, has ANYONE in Argentina been arrested and charged with the attack on the british Embassy yet?
Has anyone been arrested and charged in connection with the bomb explosion in the Argentine capital?
and yet again the Argentines DEMAND an impartial investigation. I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.
Of course it's sad that the graves have been vandalized but, as expected, KFC ( aka ol' turkey neck ) will get as much milage as she can out of this.
Isn't it a bit of a trek from the nearest pub to get to the cemetry? Why would this happen after 30 years when even the anniversary fuss has died down?
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:37 am - Link - Report abuse 01 Frank
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0A grave offence indeed............... Nice play on words there!!
( dare I say......LOL? )
Shame that this has happened but probably expected considering the continual chuntering of the RG government/bomb attacks/flag burning etc...
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe it's just me, but I can't see how any Islander would be responsible. If they had, you would think the vandalism would have been more that just twelve alleged 'bullet' impacts on the glass (see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/9441941/Argentine-war-cemetery-in-Falkland-Islands-vandalised.html), with no other damage incurred.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0Given the lengths the Argentine government has gone to in the past to provoke and inflame the UK government and the FI government, this minimal damage, and the huge over reaction to it (particularly in light of their desecration of the UK war memorial), this all smells of a false flag operation, as has already been pointed out on here.
On a related tangent, how far is the memorial from where the British and FIDF troops train? Perhaps this is the unfortunate result of stray bullets from afar?
Whoever has done this has given the Argentinians just the sort of propaganda they need. They need to be caught and punished by British justice. This kind of desecration of a cemetry is an outrage, it is wrong.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0It has happened not too far from where I live before now, drunken yobs broke part off a memorial to WW1, it was disgusting.
Likewise I am disgusted at this action.
However, the Argentine govt should now shut up over the matter and let our people sort it out. It is noteworthy that the Argentines are quick to kick up the maximum fuss they could over the issue.
They should also reflect on what would motivate people to act in such a hate filled way.
Their constant aggressive actions and rhetoric, insulting the Falklanders and Britain, attempting to harm the Falklanders way of life and by denial of responsibility as a nation for what happened in 1982 have laid the groundwork for this. Thiey have now reaped what they have sowed.
I reckon it was Johnny Rook wot dun it.... honest..... he's a bad bugger....
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0While I condemn any kind of vandalism, I am inclined to agree with the idea of a false flag operation, as the damage done to the memorial seems a bit too precise (one is reminded of the scene in Star Wars when Luke and Obi-Wan discover the destroyed sandcrawler...) Even if it was an islander, I can hardly blame them for getting a little over-excited and doing something stupid. Argentina has been provoking them for years now and tempers on the islands will always be running high.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe it was that Argie hockey player - he was pretty pissed at not being selected for the Olympics. His movie career hasn't gone any further either !
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Vandalism is a disgrace, no matter how much provoking Arg has heaped on the Falklands under the Kirchner's regime. Falklands does not need this sort of self-inflicted propoganda - the Argentines are experts at delivering that on themselves. However lets not forget this is a temporary cemetery, and the repatriation of the bodies therein is the real issue we should be focused on.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0I very much doubt they'll ever discover who the culprits were.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0Is the memorial near any of the settlements or is it out in the middle of nowhere?
I also doubt the damage was caused by firearms as there was apparently no damage to anything but the glass and it will be easily proved one way or the other. Seems convienient for the Argentines to claim it was caused by firearms as that would discount any of them - assuming they aren't allowed to arrive with weapons.
In the good old days, the staff at the photographic shop at MPA would scan the films given over for developing and printing for evidence of unlawful behaviour. I recall at least one case of penguin tossing being brought to the attention of the authorities this way. Sadly for the forces of law and order, and the photographic shop too I imagine, the smart phone and the digital camera have done for this form of ant-crime surveillance. Which leads me to one of my favourite prejudices... Has anyone checked the patrol programme and the cameras of the RIC and (read this quietly) is it still the Poachers?
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina uses the vandalism for its own purposes ... and talks about 'profanation' ... how ironic (!) especially after its own 'profanation' shooting an Argentine athlete running across the war memorial!
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Done with an Icepick... same as what done for Trotsky......
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yet again CFK tries to make a political point using the Argentine dead as pawns. How many times do you need to be told you Cristy? if you've got an issue with something that happens in the Falklands then you need to talk to the Falkland Islands Government, not the UK.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0FOLKS- A bit of practicality please- the cemetery is in a remote place, several miles by road from the nearest farm and out of site effectively from the main road. It is rarely visited by anyone other than Arg visitors. Bloody miles away from a Pub!
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Chances of finding who did this are most likley Zero - unless they left a card - he/she owns up - or a mate who knew then grasses them up.
I agree it was a damnable act in all ways - but I would say that given that Argentina has been gradually starting to loose the political game Internationally now for several months - and has scored some great “own goals” - likes state sponsered desicration of an Islands War Memorial for one - this is, on balance, more than likley been deliberatley done by an Arg sympathiser here in the Islands- there are a few(we are a free society)- possibly even at the suggestion of Buenos Aires purely(as several have suggested) - to try and win a bit of sympathy back to their cause against us.
Perhaps this theory has now even been backed up by their silly rant trying to bring their fantasy of militarization and colonialism into it.
Better had they just claimed desicration of a cemetery - to raise all the other issues as CFK and Twitman are doing - does raise the odd intelligent eyebrow! - and Intelligent those two are not!
Who knows for all we know Argentina may be one of another of Argentinas stunts i would not put it past them, my bet is if The Falklands government had banned all Argentines to the island then this along with the Olympic stunt would not have happened, strange how the doll or whatever it is and its ornaments are untouched leaving only superficial damage much like a half arsed latin american convenient vandalism by somebody who didnt wish to attack the actual figure as it would be an act against their religion, This is argentinas doing after all Argentines have equal access to the monument than any. Let them fix the monument....
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0Is that the extent of the so called vandalism?
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0No self respecting British vandal would stop at a bit of broken glass. Would definitely have had that little doll away as a minimum. And no gravestones kicked over or defaced either - absolutely ridiculous!!!
Any vandalism to any cemetery is to be condemned in the strongest possible terms, and no doubt FIG will make the best efforts possible to find the culprit.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0But how ironic that there is outrage in the Argentine Government and they want the UN involved, when just a few short weeks ago CFK supported the desecration of a Falklands War memorial, having had a very clear orrortunity to condemn it.
Why would anybody take their administration seriously ? They have no respect for their former combatants, no respect for the war dead, no respect for the next of kin. Anything to assist the self promotion of CFK is all that matters to them.
Despicable.
I feel that the farcical over-reaction from Argentina rather makes the entire story a laughing stock, instead of simply deploring vandalism it makes a mockery of its own protests by going to such ridiculous lengths and involving politics with it. It seems the Argentine government will stop at nothing in attempts to score a few points, seemingly delighted at the vandalism as an excuse to further their political goals.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0disgusting tbph.
Hope the catch the bugger that did it.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0Bit premature to start pointing fingers though, what with CFK/Argentina having a history of paying agents to secretly visit the Islands to desecrate war memorials.
An enraged vandal would have knocked over gravestones, destroyed the doll etc. This looks like someone that wanted to cause some vandalism but didn't want their god to judge them for it.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse 027 Frank
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0It woz you wot dun it!
Confess!! confess your guilt!! Where woz you last night?
Woz you by yourself or woz you with friends?
(.......and I bet you done for Trotsky too innit? )
This was a stupid act of vandalism but let's be clear, some broken glass in a remote cemetary isn't an international incident worthy of being referred to the UN. A massive overreaction on the part of Argentina (again).
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0It will have new glass in it by now and we'll say sorted, stop your whinging. End of dit!!!!!
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:44 am - Link - Report abuse 023 falklandlad :British presence is temporal!!
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Argentina invites the UK to respond to barbarism with dialogue ”
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0erm.... to what is the mad-one referring to here? the vandalism or Argentine aggression?
@36 Nah... not me Guv... it was that Johnny Rook I tells ya... he's a bad bugger.... always out and abaht busting stuff....
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0Gustbury... fuck orf... theres a good chap....
If the Argy pricks had taken their war dead back home like they should have, then there wouldn't be this Arg political tool for them to use as they wish.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0Grow some balls UK/FIG and send them back, issue finished.
I'm Argentine and unbeliever. Did someone ask the fallen soldiers, or their relatives, if they were believers of a particular religion? Since the first presidency of Julio Argentino Roca, cemeteries in Argentina are outside the ecclesiastical influence. I am not in favor of these primitive acts of revenge but I think the Argentine Cemetery should respect the spirit of the Argentine law and should include all religious positions including non-believers. I just hope that nobody takes revenge on the British Cemetery in Buenos Aires. Let the fallen, and the dead, in peace.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Makes me feel ashamed of my government making a huge deal out of this.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course, they could ship the entire cemetry to Argentina where it will be safe. Although, judging by the neglected and vandalised state of many of the 'Malvinas' war memorials across the country, it may well end up in a much worse state.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#14 - just one tiny point which I am sure was not intentional on your part - graves were NOT vandalised. The glass front to the hermitage was cracked with nothing inside damaged or removed.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 12:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#35 - that was exactly my first thought after hearing about this yesterday.
Of course they will. I was told by an Argentine 'Don't judge the country by the actions of a few people' after the flag burning incident, in this case it would be 'don't judge a country by the actions of one!' This is not acceptable, but whoever it was is one of 3,000 other people who do not agree with what they've done.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 12:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0BUT, they're taking something that was most likely done by a child, to the UN, after burning flags, and releasing a video of an Argentine practically jumping on the British memorial, that CFK announced was brilliant? I hardly think the Argentine government have a right to say or do anything in this situation
I say we look at this sensibly and intelligently. How long has this war cemetery been there? 30 years? How many acts of vandalism in that time? This one. That's all. Anybody think it strange that, if a cemetery full of invaders has been undisturbed for 30 years, it has to be vandalised now?
Aug 01st, 2012 - 12:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And, unlike other acts of such vandalism around the word, no graffiti, no grave markers destroyed, no graves destroyed!
My almost immediate thought? An argie “special forces” operation. Everyone knows of the submarine-launched argie special forces missions to the Falklands for various purposes. I suggest that this is just another one.
CFK knows that she needs a new “angle”, a new “incident”. The whinge to the UN about British “militarisation” of the South Atlantic was a damp squib. Didn't even get a clap. No-one intelligent wanted to know. Her appearance at C-24? Another damp squib. She just looked and sounded like a whining fishwife. The economic “sanctions”? Hasn't stopped the prospecting for oil. Might have made some commodities unobtainable or a bit more expensive, but nothing else. No sign of the Islanders capitulating or the British government offering to negotiate. In fact, to the contrary. She ain't winning and she knows it. And notice that the argie “statements” are aimed at demanding “negotiations” and an “end to colonial conflict”. In other words, the same old crap.
NO doubt in my mind. An argie special forces op. And not a very good one. Couldn't even smash the glass properly!
Let's remember that argies are none too bright. And NOW we should do the obvious thing. Dig the bodies up and send them to argieland. No more “attacks”, no “little piece of argieland on the Falklands, no more requests to send hordes of argies to the Islands to conduct ”forensic examinations”. Otherwise known as spying.
I have warned before that allowing this cemetery is dangerous. Now take some advice. Get rid of it. Permanently!
This is an awful crime and I condem the attack of any law graves, monuments, plaques etc etc as the acts of mindless disrespectful thugs. I would urge the person who commited the act to own up and be forced to appologise to the families of those men who are buried at Drawin.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0However, whilst CFK and her govement makes this into a full blown international incident lets just be clear about a number of things:
1) It was the legislative assembly which identified that damage had been done and them who have been open and honest in reporting it to the families commision and the world. This is the sign of a respoisble govenment. I.e. they could of just repalced the glass quietly and pretended it never happend.
2) Why is the Argentine govenment being so hypocrtical with regards the disrespect shown the war dead. they sponsered and paid for an advert in which an Argentine athlete shown to do step ups on the first world war memorial in Stanley. There has never been an appolgoise or an admission that this was wrong or respectful. In addition they state they want an independent investigation yet have never opened one to find out who threw petrol bombs at the British embassy or planted a bomb at the EU embassy.
3) Why cant the Argentine govenment just say state that they are glad the Islanders have chossen to report this, taken steps to find and procescute the culprit and condem the attack. No instead they have to include a repeat of what the world already knows (i.e. their claim to the islands). They once again bring up the non binding UN resolutions, whilst ingoring the UN charter. There is only one govment here which is using the war dead as a politcal tool and to me this is as disrespectful to the memory of young conscripts forced to fight a war by a failing miliatry dictarship.
4)Whilst I do not rule out a flase flag incident. For the sake of International relations we should all refrain from making any statements of quilt until the conclussion of the police investigati
Protest what? Are they suggesting this idiocy and vandalism was officially sanctioned? How would Falkland Islanders gain from this? Cui bono? It's just the sort of propaganda coup KFC & Co. have wet dreams about, to bolster their victim ideology in the eyes of the world. I'd suspect this stupidity was an Argentine special ops job, but for the fact they don't have the capability. All said and done the dead invaders should have been repatriated along with their surviving compatriots in 1982 to deny the malvinistas any chance to milk the corpses and cynically take advantage of propaganda opportunities like this. It's never too late.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 12:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Law graves”, “Statements of quilt” - is this comedy hour?
Aug 01st, 2012 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What it boils down to is an act of vandalism on British sovereign terrritory, so trying to involve the UN etc etc and trying to score cheap political points from it is about as low as defiling the cemetary in the first place.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 12:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anyway, don't Jewish cemetaries get regularly done over in BA? From memory the suspicion fell on members of the BA police for one such attack, so they've got form for doing this sort of thing themselves. I wonder whether the botox queen would refer those attacks to an impartial investigator?
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Aug 01st, 2012 - 01:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is now 10:00 hours in Argentina, and virtually none of the usual suspects, with the exception of ”39 gustbury (#)” have appeared on a thread which is made for them!!!!! This is more than suggestive, it is almost proof of prior knowledge.
The vandalism against war graves of any nation is one of the most disgusting sins, but that vandalism used for political purposes is even worse.
This attack on the Argentine cemetery on the Falklands should be laid at CFK's door, this is a Argentine government sponsored crime!!!!!
Unfortunate, and the most likely cause may be something like a stupid, drunken prank. However, I'm puzzled that while the glass-cover appeared to be holed by bullets according to the caretaker, the religious relic behind the glass wasn't damaged. Most strange and not at all like the kind of vicious vandalism one might see in various cases of cemetery tombstone-smashing, where the “thrill” is in damaging the actual religious relic. I wonder if the glass-cover set in a metal frame might be sensitive to extreme weather change, especially if the glass is as old as about 10-20 years or more. I do see that last week in Falklands weather, on 27 July 0600 there was a low to -3C.. then rapid rise over only 6 hours to +3C:
Aug 01st, 2012 - 01:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.timeanddate.com/weather/falkland/stanley/historic
Just heard a brief interview with Dick Sawle from last night. As usual for any member of the FIG very calm, measured and professional...can somebody explain to me again how the 3000 population of the islands has managed to produce so many solid and sensible leaders?
Aug 01st, 2012 - 01:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Described how they had been in touch with the Argentine Families Commission, and briefly how the investigation had and is being carried out (full crime scene investigation, door and contents removed for further investigation, fingerprinting etc). He confirmed that it looked like a hammer or something similar had been used.
He urged people not to speculate who it was or why the attack had been carried out. Also mentioned how confused he was that none of the contents had been damaged. Said that as far as he was concerned the cost of repair was “not an issue”. Very sensible... exactly the right things to say.
For all that the circumstances are admittedly a bit strange, let's have confidence that the authorities will do the best job they can in working out what happened.
ive seen worse acts of vandalism in a nursing home, if this was on our estate not a brick would be left standing, to the culprit you made one big mistake - you left the religious contents undisturbed which can only mean they feared what their god may do to them and i wonder who that is?? any god fearing catholic south americans in da house?? typical Argentine starts something they could not finish. You have been found out yet again.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 01:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0question is are they now trying to get unity through common religion? as all other avenues are closed mmmmmmm........
This is very strange indeed.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 01:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If Argentine special agents are behind this the why would they have been so stupid as to have used fire arms to damage the shrine? Surely that would be obvious?
Could it have been a drunken islander or one of the military?
To suggest that the Argentines dropped special forces to cause damage for propaganda purposes would be equally ludicrous. They could not have got near the islands as these are guarded by the Royal Navy. Perhaps the vandals rowed in by rubber dinghies?
Surely CFK has better things to do? I wonder
..........if the culprit had used fire arms, I'm 100% sure there would have been damage to the statue, and there wasn't. This has been done with a hammer or something similar.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 02:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@57 Shall I comment on your comment? Why the hell not? Look closely at the “broken” glass. Can you see any signs of bullet holes? Who provided the glass? Looks more like a hammer to me. Now let's consider argie “special forces”. Did I mention “dropped”? Implying an airborne infiltration? I did not. On the other hand, an argie submarine and then, yes, the “team” come ashore in rubber dinghies or even using sub-aqua equipment. Both are “classic” methodologies. Anyone remember the argie sub-aqua equipment abandoned and found on Falklands beaches? As for the Islands being “guarded” by the Royal Navy? Yes, they are. But British and American special forces regularly mount exercises and operations of this sort. Argieland may only have 3 operational submarines and they may only be diesel-electric, but it doesn't mean they can't do it. We would need to have nightvision-equipped troops every 50 feet to provide full cover. Royal Navy protection? One patrol vessel and one destroyer. Ten of each, plus minefields, might have a chance of foiling “covert” operations. This is an argie operation. Guaranteed!
Aug 01st, 2012 - 02:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 048 Conqueror & 53 Simon68
Aug 01st, 2012 - 02:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Don't you two get fed up of being right?
I had my doubt's about a falkland Islander being behind this but then I thought well, would KFC really stoop that low just to gain a bit of political mileage?
Then I see the posts from you two and I remember who we are dealing with here. Now I'm thinking, yes, I think she would.
so what is it with “Virgin of Lujan, patron saint of Argentina” anyway? What is about Argentina and virgin's for god's sake?
We all know why Jesus Christ wasn't born in Argentina don't we, huh?
..........LOL!!
I think you are all getting a little paranoid over this, a terrible incident yes but it is somewhat mysterious that it has happened in my opinion. (30 years untouched and the suddenly out of the blue) I very much doubt that a “special operation” was carried out I think that would be obvious to everyone. This is either A) a drunken islander/soldier who thinks he's on top of the world or B) an Argentine who has visited the island's and discretely attacked the monument and slipped off before the crime was discovered.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 02:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In the case of A then its obvious that we have a scumbag to deal with, but in the case of B then it appears that they are desperate acts of government running out of ideas, I mean contacting the UN and the Red cross and screaming about colonialism? Seems to me that they don't care about their war dead, much like CFK who uses them for the “greater good.” And no doubt that the Argie posters will arrive with all guns blazing screaming about it without reading the article, and failing to realise that Argentine's seem to have little respect for their own grave's/ memorial's. After all Jewish monuments are constantly attacked and just recently that large Flag was stolen from that Obelisk monument thingy-magigy.
@57 - Ozgood
Aug 01st, 2012 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm angry that anyone would desecrate a War Memorial, but I doubt it was an Islander or any of the UK military.
Firstly the islanders have taken far better care of the Argentine war dead than the Argentine government has, and the UK military have far too much respect for those who fell in battle, regardless of whose side they were on. Every year on Remembrance Day the UK forces on the Falklands, and the Islanders themselves, lay wreaths on the graves of ALL those who fell in the Falklands War.
Plus the cemetery is quite a distance away from the military base, and most populated area's, so this probably wasn't a 'spur of the moment' act. It was deliberate act, that took forethought and planning. I mean how many people take a hammer or other implement to visit graves?
I actually believe that this was an Argentine citizen trying to 'show' the world that the UK doesn't respect Argentine war dead and stir up trouble, hence why the statue wasn't damaged, nor were any of the graves desecrated.
Perhaps CFK should stifle all the faux outrage until she knows who the culprit is. I mean imagine whining to the UN about this only to discover that it was an Argentine citizen who had committed the act. Very embarrassing, but they're probably used to that. Plus her faux 'outrage' loses some of its edge when the Falkland Islanders reported this act, and that it was being investigated (I mean how easy would it have been to just have the glass quietly replaced?), and the fact that CFK immediately spits and sh!ts on the Argentine War dead by trying to score cheap political points about this.
The UN will (politely) tell CFK to feck off, and inform her that the Falkland Islands police force will investigate this matter, as it is an internal matter to the Falklands and outside UK jurisdiction. Hopefully they will find the culprit, and then to punish them to the full extent of the law.
If the culprit is Argentine will CFK condemn him or praise him?
@62
Aug 01st, 2012 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree that the fact that the legelsative assembly are investigating and have been honest about the vandialism is the sign of a responsible govenment which respects the war graves.
However I also believe we shoudlr efrain from making ny assumptions untill the police investigation ahs been concluded.
If this was an act to disrespect argentina's fallen hero's then that person should be punished and rightly so too! BUT wtf have submarines got to do with it? Yet again Argentina is playing the victim on the world stage, how many times does argentina need to be told? The islands govern themselves why would the mainland UK need to make an investigation? It's truly ignorance at its best just merely ignoring the islanders capabilities of managing a bloody 'vandalism' offence. Do I suspect that Argentina had some part to play in this vandalism? I wouldn't be surprised though. Once the story comes out in the next few days we'l find out what happened and I have more faith in the FIG capabilities of finding out what really happened instead of Argentinas version of making it an attack on a war memorial when it was just a broken piece of lass covering the virgin Mary? Id sooooo hate to be Argentinan right now, there fools on the world stage and there president needs to sort out that high inflation and lay of the Botox with the pure pete burns lips she's sporting!
Aug 01st, 2012 - 03:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@63 - EnginnerAbroad
Aug 01st, 2012 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree, it is only my opinion that the culprit might be some misguided Argentine, but you are right we should wait for the investigation to be completed before pointing fingers at any one.
Who knows it could have been some crazed penguin who saw its reflection in the glass, thought it was a rival and pecked it until the glass broke, then legged it (can penguins leg it?) in fright.
I would love to see the look on CFKs face if that was the case! Although I'm sure they would say that the penguins had been trained by MI6 to attack it. LOL
But we will all have to wait for the results of the investigation, but I doubt it will stop people speculating about who did it.
@65 Intresingly there was a story last week on the BBC about a crow in the UK which saw its reflection in a polished metal sculpture and started attacking the sculpture and roughed it up.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 03:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Those damm militarist birds (both flightless and flight able).
”the presence of submarines with nuclear capacity in the South Atlantic in violation of international treaties”.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 03:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0umm... no they don't have nuclear capacity!. Royal navy SSN's have never carried nuclear delivery systems. Me thinks the argentinian foreign affairs ministry is full of retarded, ill educated people (like all argentinian goverment officials).
As for the vandalism, pretty sure i've seen worse in england on war memorial.
@67 you can understand RGs not understanding the difference between an SSN and an SSBN, all their military hardware is basically crap that they nicked off the back of a lorry in the 60s.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Me thinks the argentinian foreign affairs ministry is full of retarded, ill educated people”
either that or the bullshit they spew is aimed at a populace full of ill-educated retards. Either works...
@60 Thank you. I'm not concerned about “being right”. I am concerned about giving the Islanders every possible piece of advice. Britain has, at the least, hundreds of years of experience of the actions of “adversaries”. There have been few that have been so anal, so belligerent, so dishonest, so intransigent, so mendacious, so putrid, so sh*tty as argieland. To the best of my knowledge, even nazi germany respected war memorials such as that on the Falkand Islands. I reiterate: a proper response at this point is to dig up the remains, conduct a full-scale forensic examination and then deliver the remains to argieland. With a simple choice: Accept this cargo or watch it tossed over the rail. Remove all trace of argie presence in the Islands. Whilst every opportunity should be taken, at the bottom line, abandon honour. The argies have none and you need to use the same rules.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Here's a few thoughts for Islanders: 30 years ago, you displayed courage, honesty, honour and integrity. And how have argies responded to you? Courage with cowardice. Honesty with lies. Honour with dishonour. Integrity with perfidy. Do you “owe” them anything? If you want, Britain will help you give them what you “owe” them. Total destruction. WE could make it nuclear if you want. Individual argie “cocksuckers” may be OK, but who cares? You can make new “friends”. You tell us. Shall we make every argie “cocksucker” die? You know they deserve it.
WE can make you “safe” in about half-an-hour. Half-an-hour annd there will be NO argieland. Give us time to reload and there will be no Venezuela either. Except for the rivers of molten rock!
What do you do with sh*t? Flush it. However it has to be done!
(25) Cmd. McDod
Aug 01st, 2012 - 04:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Always refreshing reading a witty comment in this “Sea of Turnipidity” that MercoPress, all too often, becomes…….
Very “British Navy” to blame the “Royal Army” of all nastiness in the World…………., but......
I’m pretty sure it wasn’t them……….................…. not this time!
All “evidence” (based on loose rumors, overheard at the pub, late at night) seems to point toward a couple of not so young civilian males as our valiant local heroes…………
Let's hope that the Royal Malvinas Constabulary have more ”luck” with this case than with the “Total Disappearance” of Royal Marine Alan Addis……………….
I wager 100 Pesos to anyone that they won’t……………..
@70 oh well exacly the same amount as I would wager that the Buenos Aires Police will never solve the case of who threw petrol bombs at the British Embassy or planted a bomb outside the EU embassy.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 04:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 070 think. Whats the Royal Army, can't say i've ever heard of it?
Aug 01st, 2012 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0On a different note, i wish people would stop attacking the argentinian civil population (Conqueror) its a little sickerning & you just sound disturbed like prat-hunter. Saying that the Arg government is mentaly unstable so lets attack them.
@70
Aug 01st, 2012 - 04:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Peso's? No thanks I don't need any more toilet paper. Dollars or pound sterling maybe?
@72 I echo your comments on attacking the population as whole. Would be nice to have civil debates.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 04:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is no Royal Army, because the first organised armed force of the UK (Cromwells new Model Army) was formed to fight against the King by Parliment. Where as the other two services were founded by Royal decree.
@72 agreed
Aug 01st, 2012 - 04:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think most of us only have issues with the rabid nationalistic Malvinistas (“jajajaja Pirate Scum” etc.
In my opinion, the average RG is OK - I've met a couple over here in the UK and they have been absolutely fine. Only one head and the correct number of teeth, fingers and toes as far as I could tell ;-)
Any advocate of mass destruction is not fighting my corner - ever!
72 cornishair (#)
Aug 01st, 2012 - 04:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0On behalf of the Argentine population, a big “thank you.”
74,75,76. Thanks :) the world isn't black & white. So why hate a people for the sins of their government, anyone who dus is stupid or ignorant (or both)
Aug 01st, 2012 - 05:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Damn it EnginnerAbroad ! i was going to make that point about the British army.
72/74/75 completely agree...well said.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 05:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0While a small proportion of Malvinistas on here are beyond the pale and deserve utter contempt (as does the current administration)...most are respectful when treated with respect, as has been every Argentine I've met. Conqueror doesn't just cross a line but waves goodbye to it in the rear mirror...
The thing with this story is that it is obnoxious to vandalise any memorial...the poor kids in that graveyard still had mothers most of whom will now be in their 60s. They don't deserve seeing the cemetery abused...or their government using it as a toy to stir things up and hide their own incompetence.
Think, I always find your (feigned) righteous indignation hilarious!
Aug 01st, 2012 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina doesn't care about their own memorials in BA why would they care about one in the Falklands? Tourists get MURDERED on your sacred ground and don't get caught!
How about all the graffiti on CONGRESSO? The fountain in front of Congresso? Anyone care about that? Hmm nope there is so much now you can't even see what material it is made out of!
What about the British Memorial outside of Retiro weren't they going to blow that up during the war? How about all the graffiti on that too?
The moral equivalence you are assigning is laughable!
Gads you are pathetic.
@77 sorry. Im an army brat and have recently finished reading Alan Mallinsons history of the British Army.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0'Could we please have an edit facility as I am fed up of making errors and not being able to correct them!'
Aug 01st, 2012 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Mrs Kirchner would probably like an edit facility in the real world for the same reason, Redrabs @:4.
As it was a statue of the Virgin of Lujan, not the graves of individual Argentinians, that was damaged, the motive may have been religious- anti roman catholic- rather than nationalistic.
@66 - EnginnerAbroad
Aug 01st, 2012 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”Those damm militarist birds (both flightless and flight able).”
Doesn't surprise me. Remember Hitchcocks's the birds? Stuck in that phone booth with the birds trying to get through the glass. Our feathered friends can get quite evil when they want to. Or think of the Crows out of the Omen! Definitely evil. A sheet of glass would be child's play to them, but a penguin is bigger and could put more muscle behind it.
Who knows the Falklands could be populated by hundreds of militant penguins roaming around, looking for a fight and demanding more fish!
@69 - Conquerer
Whoever committed this act of desecration is scum, regardless of whether they are British, Argentine or some other nationality.
Also you talk like a coward, because only a coward would advocate an unprovoked attack on a civilian population.
Occasionally you post some really good and well reasoned arguments, but these are overshadowed by this vile tripe you keep vomiting out. It puts you on a par with the likes of Pirat-hunter and DanyBerger.
I was a medic in the British Army, and I have seen dead and wounded men, women and children, whose injuries would make you sick to look at, things that are so heart rendering that they would make you break down and cry.
You and Pirat-hunter talk so blithely about killing people, like its some TV programme or videogame, because you've never had to make the choice of whether to shoot or not shoot a real person. Someone's son, father or brother, and the wrong decision could cost someone their life. Because its so easy to take a life isn't it? Yet it is so hard to save one.
30 years ago these young Argentine men did their duty to their country and paid the ultimate price. They deserve their War Memorial and they deserve our respect.
Respect is something that you, Pirat-hunter and DanyBerger don't understand, so can't give and because of that you will never receive it.
81 Faulconbridge (#),
Aug 01st, 2012 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If that had been the case, the “vandal” would have broken up the effigy of the Virgin, this has all the looks of a political statement probably made by:
1) An Argentine visitor to the Islands, or
2) An Argentine supporter living in the Islands.
I don't for a moment think that Argentine military “Special Forces” were involved in this, it wouldn't be worth the risk.
It was probably an idea of CFK's or that fool Timerman!!!!!
Well everybody, I have come too late to make any addition to this topic as everything has been covered!
Aug 01st, 2012 - 06:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0'I don't Think' aka The Turnip In Chief used to have 160 shit pesos in his wallet only a few weeks ago. How the mighty (liars) are fallen!
@72 Seen any videos lately? Try this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xqwNsmzCbM Civilian population? Brainless scum.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@75 Planning to be on the front line, are you?
@78 Watch the vide0, dimmo.
@82 Same goes for you. What's your REAL name? Chamberlain? Unprovoked attack? Sounds like the words of a gutless appeaser to me! And, yes, I've seen wounded and dead. I've put my hands in the blood because there was no choice. For God's sake let's bring back some commenters with guts. I can remember some, who actually fought in '82, who said they were ready to go again. Look at that video. How many of them would give more than 5 minutes' thought to 3,000 Falkland deaths? For all your “medical” experience, you need to grow up and realise that there are times that an aggressor has to be faced and have it made clear who will die first.
30 years and you still don't get it. Where is the groundswell of argie “public” opinion that should be rebelling against the constant belligerence of the argie government toward the Falkland Islanders? It doesn't exist. They are brainwashed drones. Indoctrinated from their schooldays. You need to get a proper perspective. Compare the german crowds, the Hitler Jugend to the calm views of the individual german in the late 30s. Watch the millions of salutes. Remember the fanatical attitudes, especially the units made up from the Hitler Jugend?
So, yes, I understand what people will be subjected to if “the worst comes to the worst”. But there are some things I am totally sure of. I know who has been aggressive for 30 years. I know who has tried all sorts of tricks to get their way. I remember how many brave men we lost in '82 because people like you thought it couldn't happen. I remember where my consideration should lie. I don't want to see a single Falkland Islander, a single Briton injured or dead. For the aggressor, I don't care. Aggressors deserve anything that happens to them up. I have the guts not to be an appeaser!
80 EnginnerAbroad. lol navy brat!.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It good to see people standing up againist Conqueror. I do agree with LEPRecon tho he can make good and well reasoned arguments, just need to dial back the hate and anger.
Agreed. Never post if you are angry it does no good and frankly Conk's posts are ones I can't bring myself to read read, certainly not in full. Sorry Conk. No offence meant but I know you can make reasoned arguments, try to focus on them and leave the vitriol out of it. There's nothing wrong with Argentinians, just their current government and the Malvinistas.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The more I think about this the weirder it becomes. For the record, I have never vandalised anything in my life and can't imagine that I ever will, but if I were going to vandalise the Darwin cemetery I would do something along the lines of:
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0- drive my vehicle through it.
- remove the rosary beads, photos and flowers that are on (virtually) every grave.
- if I've taken a hammer/wheel wrench/heavy blunt instrument into the cemetery to do some damage I would damage some headstones or the stone surrounding the hermitage.
I would not try to smash the one and only thing in the cemetery that has no significance (the protective glass of the hermitage) and then leave without doing or damaging or removing ANYTHING else! This cemetery is well off the beaten track - the road to it goes only to the cemetery - so there is pretty much no chance of being interrupted.
Once the culprits are found (and I do hope they are - there is no excuse for this vandalism) I don't believe that they will be military (military are military no matter what side you're on). I don't believe that they are local either. We are all strongly aware of the fact that these people are someone's son/father/husband/lover/friend. '82 wasn't their fault and no-one blames them. They've been here for 30 years so I don't see why there should be vandalism now. We're also all very aware of how damaging something like this looks to the outside world, which is probably, I suspect, at the root of this incident.
I am sure it will turn out to be either a visiting Argentine or a resident person who is sympathetic to the Argentine claim (I can think of 2). It is just odd that someone would go to the trouble of vandalising something just enough to get a headline and picture in the Argentine media - and allow CFK to very quickly condemn the action publicly of course - BUT not damage anything of any significance that can't be quickly and easily replaced good as new. All very strange.
@85 I have no time for pusillinanimous appeasers.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@86 No hate. Except for the normal hate for an enemy. And argies are an enemy. Have no doubt. This is a bunch founded on, and happy to continue, genocide.
@87 Then you are a moral and intellectual coward. Have the Falklanders ever attacked argieland? Have they been able, in 200 years, to make an economic or political difference to argieland? The answer is: NO. And yet argieland attacked and invaded. and continues to be belligerent. Why has there been no second attack and invasion? British forces.
Here's a reasoned argument. Tell me why there is an act of vandalism against an argie war cemetery after 30 years? Tell me who has ramped up the belligerency against the Falkland Islands? Tell me who has made unfounded accusations against the Falklands and Britain over the last 12 months? Tell me who is in deep domestic and economic problems? Have you ever tried THINKING?
@85 - Conquerer
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“And, yes, I've seen wounded and dead. I've put my hands in the blood because there was no choice. For God's sake let's bring back some commenters with guts. I can remember some, who actually fought in '82, who said they were ready to go again.”
You can't keep up with your own delusions. You have never served, you stated that in a previous thread, because if your numerous infirmities etc. I also remember you bleating on about how you 'had to sit and watch' (from the safety of your armchair) the men die in the Falklands War, which was quite an accomplishment as the news didn't show live 'as its happening pictures' back in '82, or say how many casualties the UK sustained until after the war was over. So you must've had bloody good eye sight to 'watch' the soldiers die from 8,000 miles away.
You are a Walt. You are a coward, you have no honour, and you think it's 'brave' to kill women and children.
I don't advocate appeasement of the Argentine government, but I also don't advocate senseless violence. If Argentina is foolish enough to attack, then the UK will defend the islands using a proportionate response. Enough to send them packing whilst keeping the loss of life to a minimum, on both sides.
The fact that you don't understand what a 'proportionate response' is, is further proof that you have never served in the UK military or any NATO military either. It is one of the basic principles of military doctrine, and it is part of the Laws of Armed Conflict (Geneva Conventions).
If you had any honour you would apologise for your senselessly violent posts, and never mention such things again.
@89 Conqueror (#) Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:32 pm
Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 01) How am I a moral coward? A clear straight forward answer is required.
2) How is any of your poisonous diatribe in any way relevant to whether or not I can make a distinction between an Argentinian and a Malvinista?
You are a throbber Conk. No better than a Malvinista.
Am I understanding this right?
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some local (or not local) yob smacks a bit of glass in a fit of drunken (or sober) bad temper (or mischief, or boredom), and Argentina lodges a protest to the British Government, the UN and the International Red Cross??? Noooo. Surely not. Well, probably.
Never mind. I'm sure our local police are rounding up twice the usual number of suspects.
@92 - Monty69
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's them penguins, I tell ya. Rowdy militant rabble avians they are.
89. “No hate. Except for the normal hate for an enemy” umm.. did someone you know die during the war or something?. Because its not normal to hate your “enemy”. i've never heard or read anything from falklands vets or islander's thats as vile as the things you write.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh and how is Furry-Fat-Feck “a moral and intellectual coward” ?. i can't see it myself but then im not blinded by hate of the argentinian's.
88 Betty Boop. Do you have some 5th columnist's on the islands?.
I really think that some of my fellow bloggers are letting paranoia get the better of them.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Deep breaths please!
@90 LEPRecon (#) Aug 01st, 2012 - 07:53 pm
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“You are a Walt. You are a coward, you have no honour, and you think it's 'brave' to kill women and children.”
LEP' you are doing better than me bloke I have missed all of this I just can't read his shite. Is it really typical Walt stuff? I should have guessed it really.
The other day I was in the Co-op in Machynlleth and there was this bloke in full combats and a Fusilier headdress. Thing is the combats were the old style DPM. I know the new pattern is pretty recent and I know that you can still see people wearing the old pattern there abouts but the other thing about this bloke was that he was very fat and very old. Too fat and too old, I mean late 60s to early 70s easy and round enough to support his own gravity well.
I wonder if it was old Conk?
Think - any of those you suggest would first need to drive 30 plus miles along a crappy “track” in winter just to get past MPA and then another 18miles- not worth the effort to go there and just crack some glass man!- they would have broken it,trashed the virgin and several headstones as well! Think you have not driven on that “track” in winter for a while!
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Somewhat more logical- given that Arg appear to be starting to loose some of the International propoganda game and has run out of ammunition to fire(politically)- is to get a supporet here(there are a few one accepts) to go and do it so that CFK can claim the moral high ground and try and win a point!
Trouble is she and Twitman have screwed up yet again by trying to drag into it all they burble about militarisation and colonialisation etc!
Agree though, location etc says the chances of the RFIP finding the culprits are pretty low.
Marine Addis- agree with you - that was back in the bad old days when we were indeed a Colony! That level of incompetence has long gone thankfully- but not for his family.
its one of two things Argentine visitor with one mission in mind or a resident on the island with his orders from queen Christines regime, either way disturbing that they would use a war memorial to stir a political point .
Aug 01st, 2012 - 08:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0now who would do that?? call it paranoia, but if theres history and motive its common sense, especially as the Argentine govt has made so much of it....
very convenient.
But on a brighter note GB got its first gold medals Wayhey!!!!
Hmmm, there hasn't been an oppurtunity to sabre rattle for a while, seems like a bit of a coincidence to me. I'm not sure how you jump from this to nuclear submarines in the same sentence. Are the Argentines capable of such a propaganda oppurtunity to better their cause based on previous recent history???????????????
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well if it wasn't a submarine, it must have been a missile from the illegal military exercises. That would explain it.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well shame on anybody who desecrates a war grave, although it is not really a problem to be put before the British Government. Its a local policing matter and lets hope they catch who ever was resposible, although there is always the possibilty that it was some kind of structural failure due to the climate etc.. They still don't seem to be able to grasp the concept in the Argentine that the FIs are self governing and as a result they keep addressing local matters to the UK Govcernment, when in fact they should be addressed to the Falkland Island's government. The problem really lies in the Argentine where the concept of democracy has never been fully understood or enjoyed. In the Argentine there is always the presence of the military to support, or to oust a government. Thus, it must seem to an Argentinian that the strings of the Falkland Island Government are pulled by the military. In this case Great Britain. Please be advised, therefore, the British military have no say in what either the British Government, or the Falkland Islands Government do, or say. The military have no say in politics and should they appear to be even remotely political it would probably lead to mass sacking and legal proceedings in the Courts
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hello Everyone,
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I haven’t read all the verbose comment made on this matter –frankly, I’ve much more important things to do.
However, I must say that it’s MIGHTY STRANGE that the alleged vandalism should coincide with the PRECISE MOMENT at which the UK is –for a change– getting some much needed FAVOURABLE, INTERNATIONAL PUBLICITY –thanks to the Olympic Games!
And anyway, perhaps, the pane of glass was badly made and spontaneously cracked, due to a sudden change of temperature. After all, at this time of year, the S. Atlantic weather is notoriously “dodgy”
Cheers!
Jim Handley, in Madrid.
When we return, the Virgin of Lujan will be to Queen in the Malvinas and not the little queen of England...
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When you return, we will reinforce the garrison with four and twenty virgins come down from Inverness.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's an Argie that did it, pure and simple. People here respect war memorials or it would have happened years ago. Just enough damage to be able to make a fuss about, no graves touched, nothing removed, nothing hard to fix. Political ammunition. Who would want that - KFC!!! If anybody from here was minded to smash it, they would have driven a bulldozer though the whole place and done a proper job, but we aren't like that. I hope we catch the culprit and their real intentions are exposed for all to see.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@103 - Jose
Aug 01st, 2012 - 09:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0By worshiping the 'Virgin Mary' and praying to idols you break the 1st and 2nd commandments:
1. I am the Lord your God, and you shall take NO other Gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Now since Mary lived over 2,000 years ago, I'm fairly certain that she's in heaven, so by worshiping an image of her, you insult God. Tut, tut. You'll never get to heaven unless you repent and stop worshiping these false idols.
Oh and just where are thes 'Malvina's' you keep talking about? I can't find them on any map. Do you mean the Maldives?
10 @ shame you have to have to appropriate our lands, ......... pirates hypocrites
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So.... how does the date of the damage tie in with the flights from Rio Gallegos?
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“hmm, even after we got one of our hockey players to desecrate their war memorial, Great Britain beat us 4-1, how can we distract the nation's attention from the hideous irony?”
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@107 - argento74
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And just who did your ancestors steal land from?
44 million Argentines, of whom only about 600,000 are classed as Amerindian or part Amerindian.
So where did the other 43,400,000 Argentines come from? How did they get the land that is now called Argentina?
Wheras the people of the Falklands have lived 'continuously' on the Islands (which were uninhabited before their arrival) for 180 years plus. That makes them native to the Falklands. It also makes Argentines alien to the Islands.
can somebody wake me up when Argentina make an appearance at the olympics, it will be over before they have arrived.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@111: read my comment.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Unfortunately Argentina hasn't made it onto the medals table, yet.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 10:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hold no anomosity to the Argentine athletes and hope that they do their very best, enjoy themselves, and go home with good memories and maybe a few medals.
Brazil is doing quite well though, as is Columbia.
However, back to the topic.
I still think it was them penguins...
I have it on good authority that the vandalism was done by Argentina once again to stir up trouble. The only ones who desecrate war memorials on the Falkland Islands are the Argentinians. Who I remind everyone lost to Team GB 4-1 when they played Hockey.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As Argentina I think the best is to repatriate all the continental bodies and then simply disengage permanently from the islands, that no ship that passes through our sea going or coming from the islands, nor any aircraft going to or coming from the islands may take our airspace. Taking these measures without modification of flag or nationality, whether ships or aircraft, Argentine or foreign, none will go to the islands using the sea or sky Argentina. Until the UK does not recognize that there is a dispute of sovereignty and an end to the Malvinas question.
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@115 XAVIERV (#) Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:08 pm
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Malvinas question? What Malvinas question? Since there is no 'Malvinas' there is no question.
Now the Falkland Islands question? Well the authorities on the islands are working on that right now and we will have an answer some time next year.
Thank you and good night.
Reading the blog was very interesting,
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The brits, have spent most of the blogg apologising to ever it concerns …
[Good or bad]
Yet strangely except for think,,,,
One would have to ask, where are AXES REG , TTT , FOGGETT , GEO , and all the rest of the argie bloggers, who one would have expected to be all over this blogg,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Eye say,
Yes damaging any war memorial is bad, and should not happen,
But, CFK seems to have gone way over the top, considering all the harm and hurt that they have caused innocent people, just seems odd,
How did the argentine government get this so quickly?
So would it not be fair, and proper, to allow the police to investigate, and see what they come up with,
And lets all hope, that they catch who or what ever did this thing,
Just a thought .
.
115 Xaviera
Aug 01st, 2012 - 11:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Great idea, finally a sensible Argentine! Now just tell us where these Malvinas are and we'll help get you started!
110 – LEPRECON:
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 12:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ridiculous myths keep repeating ad nauseum? We Argentines, who does it grab our land? Our people consists of Creoles (Indian and Spanish) as well as immigrants who came to our country because it allowed the government generously CREOLE which is what is today our people. Since when are 44,000,000? I thought that just reached the 40,000,000 inhabitants. Did you know that Argentina was practically uninhabited territory when they reached the Spanish WELCOME? Those “600,000” is simply ridiculous.
The people of the Malvinas? What people? The only thousand of the 3,000 who live only born in the islands, but this came after England thousand expelled the Argentine government appointed by Buenos Aires. And I'm not interested in that little group of 1,000 islands has been for 180 years OUR. That does not make their owners in any way and now the “owner” illegal is Britain and not the thousand. Of the remaining 2,000 in these cases seems to forget about them, not even born here and you treat them as “people”! You are wise usurper of the country, but hardly fool anyone.
119 Jose
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 12:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0You don't own the land if you can't hold the land. It was never yours and it never will be.
The link below shows the British cemetery in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 04:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.maritimequest.com/misc_pages/monuments_memorials/british_cemetery_page_1.htm
Unfortunately the spoiled ritch Brits in Malvinas act like the Taliban.
http://www.maritimequest.com/misc_pages/monuments_memorials/british_cemetery_page_1.htm
Marcos, at his best once again - silly little monkey!
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 04:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0@119 - Jose
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 05:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0Those 600,000 Amerindians come from Argentina's own census report.
But the point is your ancestors stole the land that is now Argentina from the Amerindians. The reason their numbers are so low, is that your ancestors also committed acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing against them (War of the Desert).
Argentinian has NEVER owned the Falklands. Your only claim is a 3 month occupation by a military penal colony (which had already been protested about by Britain). There was another colony there at the same time, there with British permission. Many of the islanders today are descended from this original colony.
The illegal penal colony failed. Not because of Britain, but because your soldiers mutinied, murdered their own commanding officer in front of his wife and children, then raped his wife in front of their children.
The British rounded up these murders and rapists and sent them to Buenos Aires to stand trial. Four of them were executed.
This illegal occupation of less than 3 months in 1833 and your other illegal occupation of just over 2 months in 1982, are the only times in history that the islands were under any Argentine administration.
Both times you fecked up, the first illegal presence failed all on its own, the second failed because your government underestimated British resolve and determination, and the will to fight.
Face it Jose, you lost. Your country lost a war that every military expert in the world said was impossible for the British to win. You are still losing the war over the Falklands because you are unable to admit that your country was wrong to invade the Falklands and threaten to ethnically cleanse them of their rightful inhabitants.
You can't admit that the 'history' you have been taught is a lie based on half truths and wishful thinking.
But if were to turn the clock back to 1833, the Islands would still be British. Or 1810, the Islands would still be British, or 1771 or 1690.
Our claim goes way back. Yours don't.
@121
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 07:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0So Marcos...your point is that in the UK we hold people who vandalise cemeteries and religious buildings in contempt, and have a free media that condemns any instances without prompting?
I could post numerous links to images of Argentines burning British flags, vandalising buildings associated with the UK but I won't: they are irrelevant to this story.
The simple fact is that any vandalism to a memorial should be condemned and the criminals pursued and caught, whoever they are.
Hello Everyone,
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 10:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0Of course, whilst I DO sympathize with the relatives of the Argentinean dead, I doubt that the late soldiers themselves will be too concerned! –I too am a former professional soldier.
What REALLY surprises me is the amount of hot air that this GLOBALLY, minor incident has generated.
Surely, this recent report from ‘Mercosur’(see below) is much more important. It gives the shameful details of the DELIBERATE MISDEEDS perpetrated by the very kind of people who stand to profit from the many recent conflicts and wars, which have been waged for JUST ONE THING –THE CONTROL OF NATURAL RESOURCES!!!!
AND DO PLEASE NOTE that –as the report states– the only corresponding legal taken to date has been of a CIVIL NATURE. This means that none of those implicated faced the prospect of a JAIL SENTENCE. Instead, they got off with a relatively minor fine!!!!
Jim Handley, in Madrid.
REPORT:
“Judges in the Dock!” (my title)
McGraw Hill's S&P disclosed the investigations by the civil division of the Department of Justice and the US Securities and Exchange Commission in a securities filing.
McGraw Hill said in the filing that it has been in talks with the government about why it believes charges should not be brought against S&P or its employees.
“We have been in talks with the Department of Justice as well as with SEC”, said Harold McGraw III, president of McGraw Hill, but gave no further details.
S&P has previously disclosed an SEC probe into its ratings of a specific structured product known as “Delphinus CDO 2007-1.”
It is unclear whether the SEC investigation into the ratings of Delphinus, a collateralized debt obligation that soured during the
financial crisis, is the same as the SEC and DOJ probes that were disclosed by the company earlier in the week.
If the SEC and DOJ ultimately file charges against S&P, it would mark the first enforcement action against any of the major big three credit-rating agencies, which include S&P, Moody's and Fimalac SA's Fit
115
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 10:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0Actually that would suit me and many other Falkland Islanders just fine. We could make it work and in fact we have plans on the drawing along those lines already. It would be a shame to lose our connections with Chile but the country further north that we've identified as our alternate connection (without Argentine sea or air space violation) also would have a ready and willing workforce of people who'd be happy to come down and replace the Chileans.
So bring it on.
123 LEPRECON:
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 11:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0”THE MALVINAS ARE ARGENTINE
The usurper country, Britain says they were before 1833 and the Malvinas have always been British, then the list of governors SPANISH appointed by the government SPANISH of Buenos Aires:
1767-1773 F. Ruiz Puente
1773-1774 D. Chauri
1774-1777 F. Gil y Lemos y Taboada
1777-1779 R. Carassa y Souza
1779-1781 S. de Medina y Juan
1781-1783 J. M. del Carmen Altolaguirre
1783-1784 F. D. Montemayor
1784-1785 A. de Figueroa
1785-1786 R. de Clairac y Villalonga
1786-1787 P. de Mesa y Castro
1787-1788 R. de Clairac y Villalonga
1788-1789 P. de Mesa y Castro
1789-1790 R. de Clairac y Villalonga
1790-1791 J. J. de Elizalde y Ustariz
1791-1792 P. P. Sanguineto
1792-1793 J. J. de Elizalde y Ustariz
1793-1794 P. P. Sanguineto
1794-1795 J. de Aldana y Ortega
1795-1796 P. P. Sanguineto
1796-1797 J. de Aldana y Ortega
1797-1798 L. de Medina y Torres
1798-1799 F. X. de Viana y Alzaibar
1799-1800 L. de Medina y Torres
1800-1801 F. X. de Viana y Alzaibar
1801-1802 R. Fernández de Villegas
1802-1803 B. de Bonavía
1803-1804 A. L. de Ibarra y Oxinando
1804-1805 B. de Bonavía
1805-1806 A. L. de Ibarra y Oxinando
1806-1808 B. de Bonavía
1809-1810 G. Bondas
1810-1811 P. G. Martínez
After the emancipation of America, become independent countries inherited the territorial boundaries they had before emancipation, then the governors ARGENTINE appointed by the government ARGENTINE of Buenos Aires.
1820-1821 D. Jewett
1821-1821 W. Mason
1824-1824 P. Areguatí
1829-1832 L. Vernet
1832-1832 J. F. Mestivier
1832-1833 J. M. Pinedo
Never the Malvinas were res nullius as claimed thieves pirates. Also demonstrated that the Malvinas always depended on the government of Buenos Aires. During all these years (66) there was no English on the Malvinas and Spain first and Argentine then “reigned” over the entire archipelago without complaint from any country.”
@127 José Malvinero
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Spanish did not even know of existence of the Falklands. The french told them all about it. This is fact and in french documents. The spanish then turfed out the french (bougainville was the french businessman's name). The spanish then said we'll pay for your loses. The french saw the falklands as a business opportunity and were not there to claim it. The brits had discovered it, landed there first, mapped it and also claimed it in 1765.
When britain discovered the place only penguins and seals and some foxy creatures lived there. Britain did not hunt down the native population (unlike argentines that continued this activity until 1910) as there was none.
The argentine history of the malvinas is riddled with mistakes and untruths and you Jose have been told lies by your government as have your countrymen when your government in 1934 ordered that the book Les Isles Malouines by Paul Groussac be taught in schools.
The argentine claim for the falklands is supremely weak, so much so that on the occassions when britain has said 'lets go to the ICJ' for your claims on the falklands/south georgia/etc that argentina declined... that says it all really. You claim is a big BIG joke!
Jose Marino.
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 01:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I see a very long list of Spanish govenors, not very many Argie ones :) Is that how pathetic your claim is, you have to steal Spanish years of sovereignty to make up for your woeful 3 months in 1833?
Excellent response of 127 Jose Malvinas. Furthermore it is shown that in the last meeting of the UN decolonization of June 14, 2012, prior to the speech of Cristina Fernandez, which was demonstrated with real documentation of the existence and daily life of the Argentines in the Falklands before the invasiveness English, by a desendiente of Governor Vernet. British argument clearly falls, which shows conclusively that expulcion and usurpation of 1833 actually existed.
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 01:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hello again, Everyone,
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 02:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re: the history of the Falkland Islands...
Of course, “History is written by the victors”...
Many sources claim that the islands were discovered by the Welshman, Davys, in 1592 –others reckon he’d been shortly preceded by a Dutchman. But it’s generally agreed that the first permanent settlers were from ST MALO, in France –hence the Spanish name MALvinas
Re the truncated bit of my previous message. Sorry for that but I suppose one shouldn’t expect too much from a Gossip Group principally populated by a gang of incurable idiots, intent on publishing inane ‘Sound Bites’ in semiliterate English.
Jim, in Madrid.
@127 - Jose
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 02:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not this list again! Most of these governors were Spanish, not Argentine. And none of them EVER set foot on the Falkland Islands.
Vernet was there with British permission. Mestivier was MURDERED by his own men. Pinedo was the name of the ships Captain not a governor who removed the mutineers back to Buenos Aires for trial.
So hardly a credible claim.
And since Spain didn't recognise Argentine independence until the 1850's a full 10 years AFTER they'd dropped their sovereignty claim to the Falklands, Argentina could NOT have 'inherited' them. Before Spain recognised Argentine independence, any 'claim' Argentina would have tried to make would have been AGAINST Spanish sovereignty.
So no you did not have, and do not have any CREDIBLE claims to the Falkland Islands, and you NEVER will.
@130 - Raul
Which planet were you on? Vernet's colony was on the Falklands WITH British permission. The British made him governor not Argentina.
The descendants of Vernet's colonists still live on the Falkland Islands today. The only expulsion was of the Illegal Military Penal colony, who were had already murdered Mestivier and raped his wife.
So your 'so called' evidence is at best a half-truth, but is in fact a BLATANT lie. We British have actual evidence, such as the passenger list of Pinedo's ship the Sarandi, which show the names of only 2 colonists and their families who left the Islands (not including all the mutineers). They left voluntarily, and neither of them were Argentine, 1 Uruguayan, 1 Brasilian.
The rest of Vernet's colony stayed, including Argentine Gaucho's, happy to live there under the British flag, and the rest is history.
180 years of continuous inhabitation, makes the Falkland Islanders a unique culture, seperate to both Britain and South America. Since there were no native population before the arrival of these colonists, they are now considered the native population. Argentina is an alien country to them.
@127
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 02:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Gosh, it's so hard to choose, but finally my favourite has to be A. L. de Ibarra y Oxinando.
Unfortunately, however, the existence of a list of Spanish governors no more resolves the British/Spanish sovereignity dispute than the existence of a list of Spanish goalkeepers. None of the supposed governors ever exercised undisputed and effective authority over the whole archipelago.
The Argentine “appointments” are even more ludicrous.
@130
The existence of a Vernet colony with a daily life in the Falkland Islands will come as no surprise to anybody, since it was properly authorised by the legitimate British authorities of the time. It is quite hard to see, therefore, how readings from some guy's Grandma's diary support the Argentine claim any more than the list of Spanish governors does.
The claim of usurpation, of course, depends on a legal adjudication of the claim of sovereignity. Since there has never been one, the claim of usurpation is no more than propaganda. In reality, all there is, is an attempted to impose Argentine political authority, which was repulsed. Twice.
As for the claim of expulsion, it is contradicted by logic, common sense, and all available historical evidence, including the Argentine national archives.
There are so many conflicting and legitimate claims from both sides that this matter can only be solved by international arbitration.
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anyway you are deviating from the topic which is about a vandalised graveyard.
@129 Rhaurie-Craughwell (#) Aug 02nd, 2012 - 01:23 pm
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 05:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry Oz, can't resist this one.
Ahem.
When Germany invaded France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Poland, Greece, etc, etc. Did those country's then become sovereign German territory? In international law I mean, not Malvinista law.
I only ask because you mention 3 months of Argentine sovereignty in 1833 and I am not sure an illegal occupation constitutes any sort of sovereignty at all.
@85 Conqueror (please respond)
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please explain when and why “you've seen wounded and dead. you've put your hands in the blood because there was no choice”
This has annoyed me to the point where I have to post, I don't post often, in fact my first ever post was in response to you glorifying war, and invasion.
As I said that time, I've served my country in active combat, and I've seen the real cost of war on voth sides. It's not something to celebrate.
But this post has wound me right up.
Have you served? Have you killed? Have you seen friends lose limbs or killed?
From your posts, I'd say no.
You come across as retarded and small minded as the other spastic posters on here from Argentina ie: TTT, Prat-Hunter etc.
Grow up and sort yourself out.
You do nothing except lower yourself to there level. You are obviously not thick, so why don't you realise all your posts do, is reaffirm a negative sterotype of Britain.
@127
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 08:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 01/-Britain first settled the Islands in 1765, that's two years before the Spanish bought out the French settlement.
2/-The United Provinces of the River Plate (there was no Argentina in 1816), could not have inherited the Spanish claim as Spain did not drop their claim on the Falkland Islands until 1866, maybe earlier . (If I have got the date wrong, someone please correct me for the sake of accuracy).
I keep asking this but havehad no response from any Argentines, but I'll keep asking it;
If the Spainish claim on (East Falkland) was not transferred to the United Provinces of the River |Plate in 1816, how could this claim be inherited?
Surely, if it was inherited, then why did Spain continue to claim the Falkland Islands for many years later? Clearly, logically, the claim cannot have been inherited for this reason.
The Falkland Islands cannot be the 'Malvinas' (is this a bad grape vine?) because the sign in the following link is on the Falkland Islands, (ie not in Scotland, England,Wales, Nothern Ireland or Argentina). If the islands were the Malvinas, then the people BORN AND BRED on the islands would be using a sign called 'Malvinas'.
www.falklandislands.com/images/view/29/942.jpg
For: 137 Pete Bog (#)
Aug 02nd, 2012 - 11:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re:
“The Falkland Islands cannot be the 'Malvinas' (is this a bad grape vine?)”
The short answer is no, Mate. If one wished to say “Bad grapevine” in Castilian Spanish it would be “VIÑA MALA” (note the ‘tilde’ over the letter N) or if the vine were of the climbing variety, it would be rendered as, “MALA PARRA”
In Spanish, Malvinas means, “The place of those who came from St Malo” (in France)
But as another poster has already so rightly said –I digress from this thread’s subject!
Jim Handley, in Madrid.
135 Furry-Fat-Feck (#)
Aug 03rd, 2012 - 03:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0You cannot compare the German occupation of Europe under the Hitler's murderous regime to the Argentina of today. The military junta that ruled Argentina from 1976 to 1983 was an abhorrent regime.
This should be obvious to anyone who reads the history of South America. I also suggest that you read Vargas Llosa's (Nobel Prize for Literature) critique on Argentina SI LLORO POR TI ARGENTINA
Do not forget that it was the Labour Government of Harold Wilson that sold GBP 45 million worth of arms to this regime. These arms were probably used against British servicemen during the Falklands war of 1982.
The Argentines have the habit of choosing the worst government
The junta was also probably given the go ahead by the USA in 1976 to institute its reign of terror (La guerra sucia).
@139
Aug 03rd, 2012 - 08:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0It may be that the junta was all the fault of Harold Wilson and the USA, but the rhetoric coming out of Argentina today doesn't seem to have changed much.
For: 140 HansNiesund (#)
Aug 03rd, 2012 - 09:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0Re:
“It may be that the junta was all the fault of Harold Wilson and the USA, but the rhetoric coming out of Argentina today doesn't seem to have changed much.”
Hans,
You’re obviously a man of serious thought and so right about the Argentinean rhetoric. However, n the present context, I find it impossible to resist reiterating my lifelong maxim, “Never trust a politician!!!”
But now we’re BOTH getting off the subject...
Cheers!
Jim Handley, in Madrid.
@141
Aug 03rd, 2012 - 11:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0Off topic? But it's all up there in the article. All I am doing is “responding to barbarism with dialogue”, when faced “with the irrationality of a few”.
But I have no pretensions to “lead the desire of the majorities to end the colonial conflict in Malvinas and in all those territories which are still victims of outdated ideologies”, since those bleeding outdated ideologies turn up in every thread, irrespective of topic, it's just that I can't resist heaving a custard pie at them every now and again.
@138
Aug 03rd, 2012 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks Jim for your clarifiaction of the Spanish.
Vina Mala is uncannily similar to Malvinas, inverted if not exactly.
If one said bad vines, (as opposed to bad vine), would there be an 'S' after 'Vina'?
Uk forces sometimes visit but fairly orgainised tours so anyone trying that would be in trouble big time.
Aug 03rd, 2012 - 01:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To put the Falkland Islands into perspective, on Wednesday I attended a lecture on 'The True Falklands' given by two very eminent Uruguayo veterinaries who were in the Falklands (there are STILL no Malvinas) towards the end of the last summer carrying out a return visit following one by the islanders to Uruguay.
Aug 03rd, 2012 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They spent a week there investigating mutual trade opportunities and visited all the farms on the East Island to check soil condition, population densities of the various animals, etc.
I was most pleased to learn of the improvements made to the lives of the islanders following the war of '82. The war really turned around the attitude of the British government to the islands which previously did little to advise them or help the islanders.
Previously, children over 13 YO had to leave the islands for schooling (mainly to the British School in Uruguay) and those whose parents could not afford that had to finish schooling.
That has all been changed. Three secondary schools now exist, one a very large, modern school where 170 or so pupils go to 16 YO. Another modern one on the military base for the children of the serving forces, another on West Island at the last of the government farms. Every year the FIG (who fund the free schooling) set up scholarships for the top 25% of the pupils to go for further education, mainly to the UK. They pay all the fees, including university AND all the accommodation on the basis that the pupils return to the islands for 10 years.
Very few pupils ever leave the islands for good, most returning having gained other experience.
It was great to see lovely photos of the islands, Port Stanley, the farms and surrounding scenery.
Bet this will get the Argies crying and whining about 'pirats' and all the other ArgieCrap©. And to think this all came about because of the Argies themselves!
Ha, ha, ha.
143 Pete Bog
Aug 04th, 2012 - 12:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0Re:
...Vina Mala is uncannily similar to Malvinas, inverted if not exactly. If one said bad vines, (as opposed to bad vine), would there be an 'S' after 'Vina'?”
Spanish –in common with other languages– is a MANMADE communications device. It is NOT an infallible, mathematically logical tool but an imperfect invention, extensively nuanced by inconsistent, idiomatic idiosyncrasy.
Naturally, there are different ways of correctly rendering “BAD (GRAPE)VINE” –e.g.: Viña Mala / Mala Viña (Plurals: Malas and Viñas)
However, what’s really confusing you, is the fact that –compared to its English counterpart– the Spanish alphabet has TWO EXTRA letters. They are LL and Ñ –the pronouncation of the former is vaguely similarly to the LL, in Welsh. To get an idea of the vocalization of Ñ (with the TILDE on top) imagine Ye Olde English Town Crier... He’s doing his job but instead of yelling “Oh Yea”, he’s shouting “N Yea”!
Of course, the meaning of the two DIFFERENT Spanish letters N and Ñ is NOT the same.
For instance, take two simple English words: BAKE and BASE. both have the sequence BA*E. But the third letter is NOT the same in each case. Thus, each word conveys a different concept!
Cheers!
Jim Handley, in Madrid, Spain.
The act was absolutly repudiable, coward and miserable. If there people who don't agree with our claim, they don't need to brake the glass of the monument, they have right to protest, or to propose different fair solutions for this conflict.
Aug 04th, 2012 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anyway, this is very grave, because it's not the first time that such an act of cowardice and intransigence happens in the islands, in fact last year was threatened an islander who had decided to get the argentine nationality, in case he decides to go back to the islands. That's why i think that what we can't do, is to get those simple conclusions like accusing arg. of using this fact with politic intentions, like what i read in some of the comments, thats' a very mediocre and simple conclusion. What we must do, is to ask for justice, in order to find the coward who committed that act, beside, we must wonder why do these fact happen?, this is evident that both parts of the conflict are doing something wrong. We can so myopic and ignore that as long as the u. k and the islanders continue rejecting the conversations with arg. respecting the sovereignty of the islands, which is the main problem, and as long as the argentine gov. doens't dialogue with the gov. from the islands, asking them to propose to discuss together about a fair solution for this conflcit, it's propbable that we have more of these coward and miserable acts in the future.
147 Axelrod
Aug 04th, 2012 - 04:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This was obviously done by a very immature person, after all they just broke the glass. Therefore I conclude it was done by a very young Islander, probably on a dare or after their first pint, or failing that the only other explanation would be it was an Argentine adult acting in a childish, cowardly and immature manner which we have become accustomed to expect.
@147 Axel
Aug 04th, 2012 - 04:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes it was a repugnant act. But it is not yet known who did this, it could also have been an Argentine trying to blacken the name of the Falkland Islanders, or it could have been and Islander or indeed anyone. Why don't we wait for the results of the investigation? Your president has already embarrassed your country over this act by trying to politicising it. By doing this she desecrates the memory of those soldiers far more than a bit of broken glass in front of a craven idol.
But why should the Falkland Islanders want to discuss sovereignty with Argentina?
By including the demand for Argentine sovereignty of the islands in your constitution you leave the other side no negotiating position. You want it all, but why should you get it all? The Falkland Islanders have got 180 years continuous inhabitation on their side. They have their own culture completely unique and seperate from the UK and South America.
What can Argentina offer them that is better than what the UK is offering them?
The UK protects them and gives the Falklanders the right to rule themselves with the option of becoming a completely independent nation in their own right whenever they want to.
What does Argentina offer? So far, nothing but economic sanctions and threats of ethnic cleansing against the islanders.
Tell me Axel, if you were given those two options, which would you choose?
If Argentina were truly serious about the Falkland Islands you would try to make friends with them and show them the benefits of being a part of Argentina. You would show that 21st century Argentina was different than the Argentina that invaded their homes and threatened them with murder.
You've had 30 years to do this, and instead you have just alienated them further, with your belligerent stance and your lack of respect for them as human beings.
143 Pete Bog.
Aug 04th, 2012 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re: VINA / VIÑA.
For fear that my extensive reply to your enquiry might be truncated by Mercosur,
I didn’t put the following information in my previous message on this subject:
The key for Spanish letter Ñ (“N Yea”, with the TILDE on top) is not on English language keyboards. If you’d like to print the said letter on your PC’s screen or as hardcopy, this Site will show you how to do so:
http://www.conted.und.edu/Bbsix/courses/typespanish.html
Spanish spelling is largely based on that of an older language, Portuguese. So compare the
the name ESPAÑA (Spain) in each of the two languages:
ESPAÑA (Spanish) ESPANHA (Portuguese)
Note also:
VINHA (Portuguese for Vine)
And:
Spanish: ISLAS MALVINAS, Portuguese: ILHAS MALVINAS.
Does that help you understand the difference between N and Ñ?
As far as I remember, the word does VINA not exist in Spanish as an independent entity. But it does form a part of Latin based words such as ADIVINA (imp. 2nd per. sing.: to guess or to divine) VINAGRE (vinegar) etcetera.
Finally, take care with the accents in Spanish, for instance: SE (no accent) means ONE, ONESELF, ITSELF, etcetera (from PER SE, in Latin) whereas SÉ (with accent) means I KNOW.
Cheers!
Jim Handley, in Madrid, Spain.
SÉ (with accent) means I KNOW.
Aug 04th, 2012 - 06:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It can also mean imperative of ser (be)
To: 151 dab14763
Aug 04th, 2012 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re: SÉ (with accent) means I KNOW... It can also mean imperative of ser (TO be)
Correct lad –go to the top desk!
But I reckon it’s a little unfair that you should expect me to read –off-the-cuff and from memory– an exhaustive “master class” in Spanish philology, within THE LIMITED NUMBER WORDS permitted in these posts!
Furthermore, I ain’t a trained linguist. I’m simply a somewhat uninspired “aficionado”. My real job used to be that of a Physicist who specialized in electronics technology, yet now one who has now degenerated into a forgetful, octogenarian idiot!
Cheers!
Jim, in Madrid.
My comment wasn't just for your benefit. Like your distinction between se and sé, it was for Pete Bog and others
Aug 04th, 2012 - 08:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0For: 153 dab14763.
Aug 04th, 2012 - 09:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re: My comment wasn't just for your benefit. Like your distinction between se and sé, it was for Pete Bog and others.
O. K., Mate, fair enough.
But perhaps we’d better get back to point of this Thread. Otherwise, we risk being rightfully called to order by other Posters.
¡Un abrazo gordo!
Jim, in Madrid.
LEPRECON.
Aug 04th, 2012 - 10:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Unfortunatelly, you can't be more mediocre and ignorant, you have the same problem of some others forists here, i mean the lack of intellectual honesty, all you did was just a too pathetic analysis, without criticising absolutly anything from your coutry. In my case, although i support some of the decisions that c. f. k's gov. took for this dispute, i have always criticised also the fact that her gov. doesn't dialogue with gov. from the islands. On the other hand, this is evident that neather you, nor others people here, dont realise about the doble standar that you use every time you criticise the article of our constitution that refers to our claim for the islands. According to your view, the ony one outcome for arg. is that the islands were argentine, however in your side, the islanders and the u. k have always manifested that they are disposed to discuss with arg. about different issues, but not about the sovereignty, which is the main problem, beside, they claim for the application of the right to self determination, so for your side, there is also just one outcome, in fact neather the u. k, nor the gov. from the islands have never proposed any fair solution for the sovereigny. Beside, if you think that the actual arg. is similar to the arg. that was roled by a criminal regime which invaded the islands, that shows how ignorant you are. I dont deny that our governments commited mistakes even after 1982, but at the same time, you have never accepted to discuss about the sovereignty, so, accept it or not, both aren't acting correctly, however mediocry people like you, will always blame on the others only, without recognizing that your gov. is not acting correctly either. On the other hand, don't be so inocent, if the islanders could declare their independence, they would do it along time ago, however if they don't do it, it's because of the sovereign conflict between the two nations, anyway next year will be crucial for this dispute.
@155 -Axel
Aug 04th, 2012 - 10:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Falkland Islands Government have offered talks on subjects that would be mutually beneficial to both the Islands and Argentina.
Guess what? They're still waiting for CFK and her government to answer. So who is unwilling to talk? Argentina that's who.
You say that the UK government won't talk. The fact is that the UK can't speak for the Islanders on internal matters. We only represent them in defence and foreign policy, and that is done in consultation with the Falkland Islands Government.
You also say that if the Falkland Islands could become independent they would've done so already. While this has some truth to it, under British Sovereignty they have the right to opt for independence whenever they wish. No doubt they are unable to become independent just yet, but that doesn't mean that they won't be able to in a few years time.
Another reason for them to retain British sovereignty just now, is for protection against Argentina.
As I said above, Argentina has done NOTHING to convince the Islanders that you are any different from the Junta in 1982. Successive governments have threatened them, refused to acknowledge their existence, told the world blatant lies about them; from supposedly being held hostage by the British, to calling them pirates and thieves despite the fact that their community has existed for more than 180 years, to stating that you would ethnically cleanse the islands.
It's not very reassuring for the Islanders. Thirty years Argentina has had to prove it was different in attitude to the Junta, 30 years to show the islanders that you respect them and their way of life, 30 years to offer them something other than total oppression and the threat of ethnic cleansing. But no, you impose an economic blockade on them which includes food (trying to stave them out), ban Falkland flag vessels. So no, Argentina of the 21st century isn't showing the Islanders that they are any different than the Junta.
@155
Aug 05th, 2012 - 08:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0Axel, the UK government has never stated that it won't discuss sovereignity with Argentina. The UK government has only stated that it won't discuss sovereignity with Argentina without the consent of the islanders.
What's so mediocre, ignorant, and unfair about that?
“ if the islanders could declare their independence, they would do it along time ago, however if they don't do it, it's because of the sovereign conflict between the two nations”
Aug 05th, 2012 - 11:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Nonsense. The islands are largely autonomous and almost totally self-governing, the *only* aspect in which they are dependant on britain is military defence. Ironically if Argentina hadn't spent the 20th century expressing their desires to invade and ethnically cleanse the islands, that protection wouldn't be needed and the falklands would be a fully independant realm by now.
Argentina has just won their 1st medal.
Aug 05th, 2012 - 02:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Juan Martin del Potro has just secured bronze. Well done to him, he was ecstatic to win that medal and put Argentina on the medal table.
Well played del Potro. He pushed Federer all the way in the semifinal, kinda unlucky not to reach the final
Aug 05th, 2012 - 02:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Andy Murray just won gold in the Men's Singles - go Team GB!
Aug 05th, 2012 - 03:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He wins against Federer, who beat him to the Wimbledon title only 28 days ago!
Well done Andy!
Awesome stuff :)
Aug 05th, 2012 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And it was a nice short match too, so hopefully he wont be too knackered going into the mixed doubles final later. A double-gold in the tennis would be fantastic
Poor bastard, he had to stand up on the podium for his cuntry's first medal and then had to sit through God Save The Queen, even the most staunch Malvinista has to appreciate the irony!! CFK must be doubling her dose of effexor!
Aug 05th, 2012 - 08:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LEPRECON. HANSNIESUND.
Aug 05th, 2012 - 08:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LEPRECON: It was obvious that you weren't going to criticise absolutly anything from the posture of your country.
I know that our gov. didn't asnwer yet what was proposed by the gov. from the islands, and i hope it does it soon. Beside, you are right when you say that the gov. from the islands proposed arg. to discuss about issues of mutual interest with arg., but they never accepted to discuss about the sovereignty which is the main problem.
On the other hand, that soposed invasion threat by arg., can be thought only by ignorants like you, who don't have enough intelligence in order to separate the actual context from the context of the dictatorship. Let me tell you that our constitutution says that arg. must recover the sovereignty of the islands under the respect for the int. right. Beside, at the same time that you criticise the so called blockade, you ignore that your country, and the islanders have never accepted to discuss about the sovereignty, which is the main problem, so, this is evident that both aren't acting correctly, although i understand that people who don't have any intellectual honesty like you aren't going to recognize it.
Beside, you omit that arg. manifested in many oportunities before the u. n, that it's disposed to renew the safeguards and the guarantees for the islanders, which had been negotiated with the u. k in the decade of the 70' s, but the u. k never accepted to discuus about it.
HANSNIESUND: I know perfectly what was stated by the u. k and by the islanders, that's why i have always said this is evident that they dont want to realise that as long as they continue rejecting to discuss about the most important issue, which is the sovereignty, and as long as our gov. continue without having any dialogue with them, respecting the sovereignty, we'll continue having more problems in the future, therefore i have always expressed that both parts aren't acting correctly.
@164 -Axel
Aug 05th, 2012 - 09:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How can they negotiate when Argentina will accept only one outcome, total sovereignty over the islands? That's not negotiation, that's a demand.
Negotiate = to have formal discussions in order to reach a mutually beneficial agreement.
Demand = to ask for something forcefully, in a way that shows that you do not expect to be refused.
Why should the islanders discuss giving away their Soveignty to a country that refuses to accept that they exist and that they have rights? After all they have lived on the islands longer than the land you live on has been called Argentina.
And answer this honestly. If someone placed illegal economic and trade sanctions against your country, stated that they owned it and that you had no rights, and then threatened to remove you by force (ethnic cleansing), would you feel that this attitude was any different than a military dictatorship that tried to do the same thing?
Not only that, but would you transfer your sovereignty FROM a country that gives you the right to govern yourselves, to keep any profits of the exploitation of natural resources in your territory, and the option of becoming an independent nation TO a country that will deny you the right to govern yourself, and deny you the right to keep any profits from the exploitation of natural resources in your territory, and deny you the option of becoming an independent nation.
It seems like a no-brainier to me. Freedom or Oppression.
And next year the islanders will let the world know what THEY want. Not what Britain wants, not what Argentina wants but what THEY want. And their opinions and rights regarding the Falklands are the only ones that actually matter.
Argentina, as a country, has broken too many treaties to be trusted when it says it won't invade the islands. The British military are there at the request of the Falkland Islanands Government, and they will stay there until they say that they no longer require their protection.
“Beside, you omit that arg. manifested in many oportunities before the u. n, that it's disposed to renew the safeguards and the guarantees for the islanders, which had been negotiated with the u. k in the decade of the 70' s, but the u. k never accepted to discuus about it.”
Aug 05th, 2012 - 10:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why should any argentine “safeguards and guarantees for the islanders” from the 70s be considered anything other than a total baldfaced lie? The 70s are before 1982 aren't they? And there's ample documentary proof of what the argentines planned to do to the islanders if Britain failed to remove your invasion force.
If your country's actions run contrary to their words, your words are lies and not worth anything...
...how do you think we are going to ever believe you when you present suggestions to us that you've previously violated with military force. “Once bitten, twice shy” and all that...
Leprecon 132 and 133 HansNiesund
Aug 06th, 2012 - 02:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No more lies colonialist and imperialist English please!!
127 Joseph Malvinas telling the truth.
There is much historical evidence clearly shows that in 1833 was a clear and obvious usurpation. The specificity of the Malvinas question is that the United Kingdom occupied the islands by force in 1833, expelled the original population and did not allow their return, thus violating the territorial integrity of Argentina.
The General Assembly of the United Nations clearly states to apply the principle of territorial integrity by referring to the interest. NO to self-determination, ie, not the wishes of the people of the islands - in its resolution 2065 (XX) of 1965, ratified by later resolutions 1973 (3160, XXVIII) 1976 (31/49), 1982 (37/9), 1983 (38/12), 1984 (39/6), 1985 (40/21), 1986 (41/40), 1987 (42/19) and 1988 (43/25). They all declare the existence of a sovereignty dispute
General resolutions of United Nations and the decolonization committee clearly demonstrate that it is a sovereignty issue, therefore, reflect the historical truth that the removal and encroachment existed in 1833.
@167
Aug 06th, 2012 - 03:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm a bit perplexed about “much historical evidence” as regards the 1833 expulsion of the original population. Nobody contests the penal colony was expelled, not me, the poor settlers are a mystery :
- clearly, 7 months after Onslow, original settlers are still on the islands. We know this because Rivero and his murder gang were some of them, and their victims were some more. So some settlers must have been made to leave and some allowed to stay. On what basis? And no record of such a traumatic selection process among those who stayed, those expelled, and those who chose?
- No list of the names of the expulsees? Some names are recorded in the logs of the Sarandi and the Clio, but only the attempted garrison and their families, 4 unknowns and some “foreigners”. Why are the expelled settlers not listed?
- Why are there no landing records at Montevideo or Buenos Aires either? No list of names in the Argentine archives?
- Why does Vernet not raise the expulsion in legal proceedings in the UK and the US? Surely he if anybody knew the names of those expelled? Why claim for horses, cows, buildings, without even mentioning people?
- Why don't the expellees themselves leave a record of protest? Their own list of names? Their descendants?
- Why does Pinedo corroborate the account of Onslow, with no mention of expulsion of settlers?
- How did the expellees attempt to return, and how were they refused? Letters? Ship turned away? Why is there no record of this either in the UK or Argentine archives, or among the would be returnees?
- Why has no Argentine scholar, politician or functionary been able to produce a list of names, given the immense propaganda value? Instead we get turnips, migrating birds, and Marcello Luis Vernet's granny's diary?
- Why, only 16 years after this outrage did Argentine sign a treaty renouncing its claim and proclaiming friendship?
Could it be that the likeliest explanation is there was no expulsion at all?
168 HansNiesund
Aug 06th, 2012 - 05:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Nobody contests the penal colony was expelled”
There was no penal colony. There were plans to set up one, but that never happened.
LEPRECON. MALICIOUS BLOKE.
Aug 06th, 2012 - 08:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LEPRECON. You didn't understand most i said in my comments, did you?. Respecting what you say about the only one soposed outome that arg. would accept, read again my comment 155.
Beside, can you tell me when any argentine statal authority, after 1982 threatened the islanders to remove them by force?. On the other hand, when you made that stupid comparison, asking me what would i think in case that a country claims for the sovereignty of the place where i live, and imposes what you call illigal economic sanctions, you forgat to say that in the case of the malvias, neather the islanders, nor the the u. k have never accepted to discuss about a fair solution for the sovereignty, which is the main problem, in order to find a peaceful solution for this dispute, like the u. n and most international comunity ask arg. and the u. k. So, don't tell only what is convenient for you, like all the mediocre people do. The u. n has never asked the u. k to return the islands to arg., all it did, was to ask both nations to resume the negotiations in order to find a pecaeful solution, it means that if the islanders what to remain under british gov., which is their wish, arg. won't be able to change that, but it doesn't mean that both parts of the conflict can't find a fair solution for the sovereignty. Anyway, like i said before, i really think that both countries aren't acting correctly, i alreday told you why i think it.
MALICIOUS: The day that you have enough intelligence, in order to learn to separate the actual context, fromthe context of the dictatorship, maybe that day we can have a mature debate about this dispute, i know what were the plans of the dictatorship, but, accept it or not, since 1983, arg. isn't a dictatorship anymore.
@170 - axel
Aug 06th, 2012 - 08:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What fair solution to sovereignty? The Falklands have NEVER been yours! Ever! All you evidence is half truths and bare faced lies. You cannot product one shred of actual evidence that shows that the Falklands have ever been yours.
You might as well claim the United States of America because that's got about the same amount credibility as a claim as your Falklands claim.
Britain has had to remove your ILLEGAL occupation of the Islands twice. There is nothing Argentina can offer the Islanders that would entice them to want to be ruled by Buenos Aires, especially as for the last 30 years you have done nothing but threaten and intimidate them.
You must feel brave, 40,000,000 against 3,000. But then again if it was just against 3,000 you would have invaded by now. No your country is kept at bay by 1,200 members if the British Armed Forces, 4 planes and 1 naval vessel. And that frightens your country so much that you are always humiliating yourselves before the world by claiming that the British are militarising the South Atlantic, when we actually have the lowest number of assets in the area since the Argentine invasion in 1982.
Regrading the ethnic cleansing, the British found papers that showed that the Argentine administration where going to 'remove' the uncooperative islanders and replace them with Argentines. Since that regime was toppled it seemed pointless to bring it up before the UN. But since that military junta murdered 30,000 Argentines I doubt they would've lost sleep over murdering a few thousand islanders.
The rhetoric coming out of Buenos Aires doesn't appear to have changed one iota. But that doesn't matter, next year the Islanders will vote. The UN will remove them from the decolonisation list. The Islanders will also petition to have the word 'Malvinas' removed from every international document as the name Falklands to be the only internationally RECOGNISED name.
Then you Argentines will continue to cry, but no one will listen.
“you forgat to say that in the case of the malvias, neather the islanders, nor the the u. k have never accepted to discuss about a fair solution for the sovereignty”
Aug 06th, 2012 - 11:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is the main point. There is no solution that will satisfy all parties.
Argentina wants the islands and doesn't care one bit about the rights or desires of those who live there.
Britain is looking out for the rights of a small group of british citizens.
The islanders are looking out for their own interests in the face of aggression from a much larger neighbour.
There are three possible solutions:
1.The Falklands remain a british overseas territory as long as they want.
Result: The islanders would have to choose this, Britain would accept it, Argentina would keep harassing and bullying the islands and making all sorts of pathetic threats in the UN.
2. The Falklands become an independant country.
Result:
The islanders would have to choose this, Britain would accept it, Argentina would keep harassing and bullying the islands and making all sorts of pathetic threats in the UN. And due to the added diplomatic complexity of military protection Argentina would probably take the opportunity to invade.
3. Argentina annexes the falklands.
Result: If this was the desire of the islanders, Britain would have to accept it given their current stance. However, given the campaign of bullying and harassment by the Argentine government this is unlikely. The only two courses of action for the Argentine government would be a forcible relocation of the islanders against their will, or brutal military subjugation, since the islanders would never want to be ruled from Buenos Aires.
So, Argentina's desire to own the islands will only ever lead to failure or crimes against humanity. Which are you going to choose?
I thought the Argentinians didn't care what the Islanders say and do. To them the don't even exist.
Aug 07th, 2012 - 12:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Kowing how greed works, I suspect that if the Falkland's were inhabited by Argentinians instead of British, then the discovery of oil would have led to a demand for independence from the Argentine by the setlers on the Falklands. We have a similar situation in Scotland
Aug 07th, 2012 - 03:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@174
Aug 07th, 2012 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And run by a similar idiot who says things without thinking through the consequences.
#170
Aug 07th, 2012 - 09:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have continued this from a previous topic which is now closed.
“Give peace a chance”
Why does Argentina want sovereignty of the Falklands when according to you, nothing would change for the present population.
Sovereignty implies total control of the islands. So, whatever agreement your government would make, they still would have have the ultimate say as to what the islanders could do.
This might be a benevolent political system but in future times what would prevent a different govt. from repudiating any treaty or agreement by declaring it was not in the best interests of Argentina OR it was originally unfair to Argentina.
This appears to have happened several times in the past.
So, as I have said before, as far as sovereignty goes, Argentina gets what it wants and the islanders take all the risks.
Would you honestly take a chance if you were an islander.
Try to stand back from your obvious and understood prejudices and put yourself in their place.
#174
I can assure you that the man in question is politically astute and does think through the consequences although many people don' t like his point of view - he is a politician and no better or worse than any of the rest.
LEPRECOM. MALICIOUSBLOKE.
Aug 07th, 2012 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LEPRECOM: Its amazing how rediculous and ignorant you are. Your biggest problem is that you think that only your side has the truth about the historic an the legal aspects of the this conflict. That' why, in order to not to be an ignorant you, it's necesary to investigate, in fact, i made two exhaustive investigations about the historic and the legal aspects of this conflict, where i tell what is omitted by both countries, when they deffend their right over the islands.
if you want, i can send you by i mail one of my surveys, because it's too long to explain most arguments here, there are many aspects that we must take into account.
Respecting the ethnic cleansy, that happened during another dictatorship in the end of the 60's, which was a criminal regime too. Anyway, i won't discuss again with you about that stupid comparison that you make, when you say that the actual arg. is similar to the dictatorship that invaded he islands in 1982. Like i said before, next year will be crucial for this conflict, let's see what happens.
MALICIOUS: All you said is too rediculous, it's false that there woudn't be any solution that satisfies all the parties, your problem, is that you don't want any fair solution for this conflict, that's why most you make all thsose stupid comparisons that you love doing, and ovbiously, you won't recognize that your country is not acting correctly either. On the other hand, none province in this country is roled by buenos aires, that's something that many ignorants in this forum, including you, love parroting all the tiem, however thats' false. All the provinces have autonomy, they all have their own constitution, and their economic policy, but they all have a representants at our congress, beside, the central gov. makes inverstments in different areas, like education, health, public works, in all the provinces, and gives financial support in case they need it.
Ownership by conquest is how history is/was formed. If you had been successful in 1832 there would be no discussion. We like to think nowadays (or at least since 1945/54) that never again will any country gain land at another's expense. The only exceptions that come to mind are Israel in 1949 The Arab League invaded the Jewish area and were defeated and again in 1967. Still a problem! India invaded that Portuguese colony and annexed it. Likewise Indonesia invaded another ex Portuguese colony and I think have since been forced to release it. China invaded Tibet but they say just reasserted authority over a subject state. But compared to the previous 1000 years almost no change at all really. I need hardly mention what happened to the Argentinian invasion. My point is that until Argentina gets overwhelming military power or persuades someone like China to support them they would be better to adopt a dignified attitude towards the Falklands and see where their best commercial interests lay. i.e. grab some juicy supply contracts for the forthcoming massive oil development. Though perhaps nobody would trust them to keep to their contracts? The world was pretty much fixed as to political borders in 1949/54 and only major turbulence would allow naked force to result in territorial expansion again. I do not see this happening, the era of colonialism has ended where it is now i.e. the South American countries, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, all formed by taking land from indigenous people. This is not considered good practice now!
Aug 07th, 2012 - 10:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“it's false that there woudn't be any solution that satisfies all the parties, your problem, is that you don't want any fair solution for this conflict”
Aug 07th, 2012 - 10:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Again, the problem is that there's only one solution that Argentina would view as “fair”, and that is total ownership of the islands regardless of the wishes of the residents.
The malvinistas on here are quick to talk about “territorial integrity” and claims that the self-determination of the islanders is a non-issue but to be honest with you, you haven't considered the practicality of it.
Simply put, THE LOCAL POPULATION DOESN'T WANT TO BE A PART OF ARGENTINA. So, in the event that Argentina gains possession of the islands, you will have a group of residents utterly opposed to being part of their new country. This leaves your country with only two options: sending in riot police and maybe the military to quell an uprising (the Falklanders remember the last time Argentina occupied them, this one WILL end in bloodshed) OR forcibly removing the islanders from their homes and deporting them.
The islanders won't meekly and willingly submit to being a part of Argentina, and forcing them into it will only end up with your government committing atrocities against the population.
And THAT is why the views of the islanders matter...
#169 dab14763
Aug 08th, 2012 - 03:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say that in Malvinas “There was no penal colony. There were plans to set up one, but that never happened.”
Well....Charles Darwin was in Malvinas in 1833 (just 2 months after possession by force by english officer who expell argentinean population living in Malvinas in peace) and also in 1834.
Let´s see what he wrote In his book “The Voyage to Beagle”.
“After the possession of these miserable islands had been contested by France Spain, and England, they were left uninhabited. The government of BUENOS AYRES then sold them to a private individual, but likewise used them, as old Spain had done before for a penal settlement”.
*** I guess we´re all agree that this englishman Mr. Darwin is a respectable and honorable witness ..isn´t he ?
Mr Barrow, unfortunately proven with evidence many times by couple posters here, you enter in the exclusive Club of Mr. Lorton, a common liar. Peru merece cosas mejores.
www.infidels.org/library/historical/charles_darwin/voyage_of_beagle/Chapter9.html
@177 - Axel
Aug 08th, 2012 - 06:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Nope I'm not ignorant of the facts, but you are.
You constantly regurgitate the 'party' line regarding the Falklands, despite the fact that the majority of what you spout has been investigated and countered by far smarter people than I.
Well let's settle this with a history lesson. Prior tomthe 20th century, any territory a country wanted, and could hold was considered theirs. It was that simple, hence why when many of the colonies declared independence from the European powers, and those powers failed to be able to reassert their will, those colonies got to form their own countries.
So in 1833, the British removed some illegal squatters on British territory. The United Provinces did NOTHING after this expulsion. They didn't send troops to retake the islands, which meant that they had accepted that the British had won.
So in other words the British retained sovereignty because the UP took no further action. This is further supported by the treaty of perfect friendship in 1850 which states that Argentina and Britain have NO outstanding disputes. Since the Falklands were under British sovereignty in 1850, means that the Argentine government RECOGNISED the British ownership of the islands.
Argentina had its chance in the 19th century and failed to retain the islands. Now 180 years later you are trying to rewrite history, and it just won't work.
One more thing I would like to say. You Argentines often talk about the Junta like they were foreigners that invaded and oppressed your country. But the truth is they were Argentines who committed terrible deeds. They decided to invade the Falklands in 1982 for 1 reason. To try and unite a disparate Argentine population who were, understandably, extremely angry at the regime.
That plan worked. The Argentine people supported them in that invasion. Your denials of that support for this invasion is why people don't trust Argentina. Despite all the evidence to the contrary you try to rewrite history, again.
@180 so_far
Aug 08th, 2012 - 08:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Regarding the expulsion of the “argentinean population living in Malvinas in peace” in 1833, any chance you could clear up some of the questions I raised in post #168 of this thread?
-#169 dab14763
Aug 08th, 2012 - 09:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say that in Malvinas “There was no penal colony. There were plans to set up one, but that never happened.”
Well....Charles Darwin was in Malvinas in 1833 (just 2 months after possession by force by english officer who expell argentinean population living in Malvinas in peace) and also in 1834.
-------
So far,
In 179 years Argentina has not presented one single shred of evidence that proves the population was expelled. Not ever.
-------
-Let´s see what he wrote In his book “The Voyage to Beagle”.
“After the possession of these miserable islands had been contested by France Spain, and England, they were left uninhabited. The government of BUENOS AYRES then sold them to a private individual, but likewise used them, as old Spain had done before for a penal settlement”.
*** I guess we´re all agree that this englishman Mr. Darwin is a respectable and honorable witness ..isn´t he ?
--------
Argentina sent just one prisoner, Máximo Warnes, no doubt with the intention of sending more. He left the Falklands on the Sarandí in January, 1833, and Argentina never sent any more. That hardly makes a penal settlement.
Darwin was there twice as you say. First in 1 March 1833 - 6 April and second 16 March 1834 - 6 April 1834, that is, after Onslow was there in January 1833. So no, he couldn't have been a witness to any Argentine penal settlement. You do know what a witness is, don't you? Darwin was probably not aware that the penal settlement had never been set up. Or he may have mistakenly thought the soldiers who murderered Mestivier, or the Rivero murderers were part of a penal settlement, when in fact they weren't.
--------
-Mr Barrow, unfortunately proven with evidence many times by couple posters here, you enter in the exclusive Club of Mr. Lorton, a common liar. Peru merece cosas mejores.
--------
Those posters have not proved me wrong in anything. We back up our facts with evidence. You with fuck all. That makes you the liar.
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Aug 08th, 2012 - 12:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://www.facebook.com/Britain1592
*** There is concrete evidence that Malvinas Islands were used as a penal settlement by Spain between 1807, 1808, 1809 and even in 1810, exiling convicts even from the city of La Paz.
Aug 08th, 2012 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0*** Under the Argentine sovereignty control, it is also a concrete evidence that in 1816 the minister of war of the United Provinces (Argentina) Mr Beruti, sent a letter to the most important liberator and national hero, General José de San Martin, at that time governor of Cuyo, in which he explicitly requires sending priosoners to transfer to the penal settlement of Malvinas.
*** Additionally in 1823, Mr Luis Vernet and and Jorge Pacheco sent a letter to the government of Buenos Aires soliciting funds and resources to reacndition and restore the penal settlement of Malvinas that evidently was abandoned or in poor condition in that time.
Conclusion:
1) There proofs and concrete evidences that a penal settlement exist in Malvinas exactly as Mr Darwin afirm, he was right and only expressed the truth as honest person.
2) Mr David Barrow is a compulsive liar with the sole intention of distorting the story as many posters here have shown and unmask you.
is wikipedia but good enough as example, sorry is in spanish.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comandancia_militar_de_las_Islas_Malvinas
182 HansNiesund
Sir, you already have enough evidence of the truth and deliberately chose to believe a story impossible to believe based on facts.
I have nothing to say only to respect your point of view, in my opinion untenable. But thats your right of course.
@185
Aug 08th, 2012 - 04:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh dear. That was my third attempt to get answers to those questions, or at least soem evidence put on the table, but everybody seems to be as perplexed as I am.
Surely it can't be the case that there is no evidence at all? Shouldn't somebody point this out to the UN, for example, in case they might have got the wrong idea?
So far
Aug 08th, 2012 - 04:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We know that Spain used the Falklands as a penal colony, and we know about the letters. But there is no evidence that Argentina ever sent any prisoners, apart from Máximo Warnes, who I mentioned above.
179 years and we are still waiting for Argentina to provide proof that the population was expelled. All the available evidence shows that it was not expelled.
Sorry, I see nothing to arbitrate about. The Falklands has never been a part of Argentinian territory, either by treaty, or polulation, nor conquest, except for 70 days . The arguments about continental shelf are plainly absurd. Such arguments would imply that Great Britain belonged to continental Europe, and Norway to Denmark etc.. etc.. What defines a country is its indigenous population its political beliefs, its constitution, and previous territorial conflicts .It follows that the Falklands is a country in its own right, they have chosen, because of the percieved threat from the Argentine, to allay themselves to Great Britain for defence purposes. Should Great Britain, at any time, try to shelve that responsibility, then the Falkland Islanders would be free to make a pact with another country to secre their indpendence. Alternatively, they could appeal to the United Nations for protection.
Aug 08th, 2012 - 07:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am afaid that the Falklands will never vote to become Argentinian. Argentinian claims to South Gorgia and the South Sandwich islands are an equal farce and seem to be based on the fact that previously Great Britian governed those territories from the Falklands. That was for administrative convenience, it does not make them a part of the Falklands and, in any case, the Argentinian claim seems to be based upon illegal occupation. In that event, any administrative control of South Georgia and South Sandwich would be illegal too. Thus, their arguments circle in upon theirselves, because it makes South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands 'stand alone', and direct possesions of Great Britain.
I think the real question we have here is one that the Argentinians should be asking their own government, as to why it is wasting so much time on the Falklands, which is a lost cause, and not concentrating on their problems at home
LEPRECOM. MALICIOUSBLOKE.
Aug 08th, 2012 - 09:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0MALICIOUS: Respecting the only one outcome that arg. would accept, in case that the u. k deciced to resume the negotiations, read my comment 155, there you'll find how rediculous and hipocrite your conclusions are. All the rest of your comment is no more than the tipical stupid and ignorant concusions that some of you do everyday.
LEPRECOM: The discovery or the papal bulls are insuffient in order to claim for a territory, discovery only gives a precarious title, since before XVIII century, the most important condition in order to claim for a territory, is the permanent occupation. Let's sopose that the u. k discovered the islands, it only occupied for seven years 1766-1774 a small fort called port egmont, in the north of the west island, after that year it didn't exercise any sovereign right over the island. The east island was occupied by spain, and it joint the viceroalty, when the u. p declared it's independence, it had right to occupy that island, because the succession of states is applied to all the emancipated colonial territories. Anyway, i think that perhaps the u. k had rights over that island too, because according to the a secret article that had been included in nootka sound convention of 1790, it let the u. k to stablish settlements when another power stablishes a settlement too, but our righs were based on the succesion of states, so, both should have accorded to find a fair solution for this question, instead of depriving the u. p from the islands, anyway there is a lot more to say, thats' why i offered you to send my survey. The case has strong and weak aspects for both nations, you can argue that our rights finished in 1850, however the u. k in 1968, 1974, and 1980, tried to find a negotiated solution for this conflict, so, how do you explain that?. Respecting what you said about the dictaorship, there s a lot more to say too, but i haven't enough characters.
“when the u. p declared it's independence, it had right to occupy that island, because the succession of states is applied to all the emancipated colonial territories.”
Aug 08th, 2012 - 10:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Axel, it is legally impossible to inherit sovereignty from another state if the other state has not given it to you. You cannot inherit sovereignty via unilateral secession.
@188 Vernya
Aug 08th, 2012 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree about the “continental shelf ” arguments - they do not confer sovereignty - only the right to exploit resources (under certain conditions).
Here is what is written in International Law (taken from the US NOAA http://www.gc.noaa.gov/gcil_maritime.html#shelf )
Also, the claims over South Georgia and the S. Sandwich Isles is, as you say, based on British administration (although they are now a separate BOT rather than a Falklands Dependency) - seems to be a case of wanting your cake and eat it.
Just finished reading this mamoth thread, a few observations: The “false flag” theory is silly, like people who think Bush did 9/11. It is interesting though to see it admitted that there are native Islanders who are pro-Argentine (one poster I think knows of two personally). Axel's account of an Islander being victimised for wanting Argentine citizenship seems more than plausible given the tensions, yet these brave and usually unmentioned freethinkers continue to buck the trend. Like all good ideas I hope and expect this one, self determination for regional engagement and peace, will spread. Maybe even in time to run a campaign in the referendum? Also good to see Conk rounded on by his own side, and I concur that on the pro-Cristina side Pirate-Hunter is a similar embarrasment with his rants about nukes and gays; I wouldn't class Danny as being like them though
Aug 09th, 2012 - 12:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thank you 191 Steve. What is sad is that the government of the Argentine have deliberately lied and deceived their own people over this matter. The Argentinians seem to see politics at an emotional, rather than a logical level, and that plays right into the hands of a manipulative government, who are trying to hide the truth about things at home. The only plus point from the situation is that emotional politics boils over from time to time and results in mass demand for the removal and replacement of the government. I think the Argentine have experienced this several times in their short history as a nation, so a repetition is probably not many months away
Aug 09th, 2012 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0DAB14763.
Aug 09th, 2012 - 11:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0My arguments are based on the works of academic knowledges of argentine and british professors of international right that i included in my investigation. You can reject as much as you like what i said in my coments, it doesn't change anthing. Anyway there are many aspects that must be taken into account, if we want to discuss about such a complicated cause like this one, i can send you my work if you want, and we can discuss about it.
Axel,
Aug 10th, 2012 - 05:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I've sent you an email for your work
Yes Axel 194. However, one must be very careful not to indulge in perversion by selection. That is, to reprint only the statements and opinions of people who seem to support your own opinion and ignore those who do not. For example a group of very learned Argentinians recently said publicly that the Falklands has been settled for more than 130 years and the islands, therefore, belong to the present population. Have you included that in your studies ? The United Nations have failed to back Argentinian claims to the Falklands
Aug 10th, 2012 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As I understand it, the British offered to take it to the International Court of the Hague, but the Argentine declined. The conclusion one automatically draws from this is that 'they did not think they could win'. The silly Argentine military venture in the 1980s has, I am afraid, sealed the opinions of the Falkland islanders, certainly for the lifetime of anybody in this chat room and way beyond that .
However, the general gist of what you say is based upon the false belief that Britain could give away the Falklands. Great Britain has no such power to give people away into a situation they do not wish to be in. The rights of the islanders are enshrined in international law . Personal philosophy by a group of professors , British, or Argentinian, should not be confused with international law, especially when there is probably an even larger group who would argue the case differently to them
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