MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Scotland to hold an independence referendum before the end of 2014
A referendum on Scottish independence will take place before the end of 2014 following an agreement signed on Monday by UK Prime Minister David Cameron and Scottish leader Alex Salmond. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesLook how peaceful and mature it can go (:
Oct 15th, 2012 - 06:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0they will vote on it, if they get it so be it it's called SELF DETERMINATION.
Oct 15th, 2012 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0FEW INDICATORS
Oct 15th, 2012 - 07:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 01- in 2014 Scotalnd referendum for leave the uk, now >40 % gonna out
2- 2013-2014 period UN Security Council Reform is taking BIG steps (uk will loose privilagies and will be obligated to obey UN resolutions about Malvinas).
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2010/ga11022.doc.htm
3- United Nations c-24 Comitee of Decolonization strong side with Argentina about Malvinas issue
4- Complete LatAm strong side with Argentina about Malvinas issue
5- Restrictions to illegal aliens inhabitans in Malvinas islands will agressive increase in the next years in the region, not just from Argentina.
6- Big Players BRIC strong side with Argentina about Malvinas (China, Rusia, Brasil)
7- Itellectuals, Serious Media and Academics from Uk side with Argentina about Malvinas and public show their serious conclusions
8- Strong cuts and hard economics times ahead in the uk will make a mess in the country.
9- Ireland unification is inevitable and certanly will leave the uk.
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2010/ga11022.doc.htm
Now is really a good time for uk to sit down for negotiation with Argentina, make a good deal and agree an honorable withdrawal from Malvinas and make peace with the international community.
@3. This referendum shows that the UK respects self-determination in Scotland, just as it does in the Falklands. It's not a sign of decline, it's a sign that the UK respects the fundamental rights of its people.
Oct 15th, 2012 - 08:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Isn't it a bit hypercritical for you to support self-determination in Scotland and then call for the removal of self-determination in the Falklands?
If the government of an Argentine province requested an independence referendum, do you honestly think the government in Buenos Aires would do as accommodating as the UK government is to Scotland? I doubt it.
@3 well that's got to win the prize for the biggest lot of shite ever put on these forums well done dickhead you won a wooden spoon. FFS desperation springs to mind. It ain't going to happen dipshit the British flag will be flying over the Falklands and Scotland in 2015, the c24 will be disbanded next year as it's a waste of time and money, there will never be a united Ireland (check out the state of Eire since they joined the euro). Scottish independance is at 63% to stay in Britain 23% independance 14% undecided (i live in Scotland). Latam countries don't give a toss about the Falklands (there are no Malvinas), Brazil about to sign defence deal with BAE about building new ships for them and help developing nuclear subs, and the only big steps the UN security council will take is against rgenweeners default of payments and lies to the IMF about debt and dollar clamp................NEXT!
Oct 15th, 2012 - 08:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#4 Mr Medea
Oct 15th, 2012 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There are very significant differences in the cases you mentioned.
Scotland is not a province ...indeed is an invaded and dominated country for centuries by the use of force by the english invader that could keep under control the small population of Scotland in a “legal” way that nobody believe it. Please read the historic documents of the Battle of Bannockburn.
Malvinas is not a country nor a province ... is simply an Argentine territory usurped in 1833 by uk in which 2500 souls live in , mostly english ancestry invaders implanted illegally as a remote and madness colony of the uk.
That territory is held exclusively by military power and no civilized country on earth or United Nations body recognize it nor the “self determination rights” of the ilegal population. Don´t take my word, ask UN about. simply not exist, see the resolutions, all of them call for territorial integrity as paramount in this case. NO ONE mention “self determination” right of inhabitants, british ones by the way....already self determinated as british since 1983.
About your last question “If the government of an Argentine province requested an independence referendum, do you honestly think the government in Buenos Aires would do as accommodating as the UK government is to Scotland? I doubt it.”
well, there is an strong evidence that a complete population of welsh ancestry living in a town (near 3000 person) ask for a referendum in 19xx to be part of Chile or Argentina to King of England George the mediator...funny isn´t ? They choose to be part of Argentina, the city is called Trevelin in Chubut province, google it if you want to. So your point no make sense to me.
@6 wrong wrong wrong, read history don't quote it, England and Scotland were always at war , but have been a part of a UNITED KINGDOM for centurys. Your right Scotland is not a province it is a Country, a country within the UNITED KINGDOM as is WALES and NORTHERN IRELAND, which is why it says on UK passports United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, do you see what my point is UNITED.............got it yet. History is history pal, we owned the Falklands long before you even existed and when I say we i mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so don't try to bring in the Scots as your allies they hate you as much as anyone else especially the Scots Guards (google it). We know our history William Wallace, Roberet the Bruce etc etc, but that's what it is history, truthful history though unlike your history of the Falkland Islands.
Oct 15th, 2012 - 09:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 06 so_far (#) Correct!
Oct 15th, 2012 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 07 slattzzz (#) “@6 wrong wrong wrong, read history don't quote it, England and Scotland were always at war , but have been a part of a UNITED KINGDOM for centurys”
You are right there too. Water and oil don't mix. Time to separate them!
oh sussie you are so boring i'm really going to enjoy putting you down when the people vote is to stay in the union, and then you'll look as pathetic as normal, and i'm very very confident of that
Oct 15th, 2012 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I would like to know who will control the money supply? Will it still be london? Or will the scots will be able to print their own money?
Oct 15th, 2012 - 10:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0argie bloggers,, you know not,
Oct 15th, 2012 - 11:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0give patagonia its indipendence, offer freedom to the other provences,
fools paradise.
Being Scottish I think I can safely say that the majority of scots dislike Argentina as much as the English do :) in fact, possibly more so.
Oct 15th, 2012 - 11:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Unless of course Argentina are knocking England out of the World Cup, but that's just banter. While we pretend to dislike England, we actually really do dislike Argentina :)
Now the Argies bloggers will slowly fade away,
Oct 15th, 2012 - 11:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They have been exposed, discovered, and out witted Again.
Chuckle brothers ..
“If the government of an Argentine province requested an independence referendum, do you honestly think the government in Buenos Aires would do as accommodating as the UK government is to Scotland? I doubt it.”
Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0If if if... No argentine province has ever wanted to cecede. EVER. We are a strong country, not like the ones in Europe one little crisis away from riving asunder.
No argentine province has ever wanted to seceded. EVER
Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0anyone disagree or knows differently.
We wait in anticipation.
Poor England, not even the countries stuck to them by nature want to be part of this falling empire(once upon a time)
Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0@6 so_far
Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0In what way are the Falklands 'held exclusively by military power'? If the British military left tomorrow, the islanders would still be there, as would their government, economy and society. That's what 'holds' the islands for the UK.
Actually, the islanders are mainly of Scottish and Welsh ancestry. They are the descendants of colonists and immigrants who have come to the islands over the last 200 years. They are not different than any other peoples in the Americas, including Argentina. Many countries support the Falklanders' right to self-determination. Canada is the most vocal supporter.
You clearly haven't read UN General Assembly Resolution 1514 of 1960, which states:
“All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”
It also states that:
“The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.”
Scotland became part of the UK through the Acts of Union 1707 when the Kingdoms of England and Scotland agreed to become one nation. It wasn't as a result of invasion. Violence was used in the past to keep Scotland in the union, which was wrong, but it's not that way anymore. The UK respects its people's right to self-determination. Does Argentina do the same?
@14 Arifu_Gobakuwi
It was a hypothetical question. I realise no Argentine province has requested independence (yet), but what if one ever did? How do you think your government would react? Would it be as peaceful and democratic as the UK government's reaction to Scotland's request?
I can tell you, if Argentina the the Falklands ever became an Argentine province, the islanders would instantly request a vote for independence.
The only good thing about England is the view to Scotland...
Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0The right to self determination made manifest. Similar referenda have previously been held in Bermuda and Gibraltar, so that the people can have their voice in accordance with the principles set down in the UN Charter. In both these cases no change occurred, though the result in Bermuda was quite close.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 11:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0All UK territories have the right to choose their political future for themselves, and the UK Parliament respects that. Mature democracy. We look forward to Argentine democracy strengthening and maturing over the coming decades, and expect similar more enlightened views to emerge in time.
Comment removed by the editor.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 11:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0@14 TTT you need to get out of Mendoza more. Many people in the provinces talk about independence. Argentina is not as united as you think which is why Peron introduced nationalism, to try to unite a disparate country.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 11:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0How do you know so little about Argentina?
“uk will loose privilagies and will be obligated to obey UN resolutions about Malvinas”
Oct 16th, 2012 - 01:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Our veto has nothing to do with the falklands in any way, shape or form.
The UN general assembly has not ordered us to give back to the islands neither will it ever, it's not in it's mandate.
We can not “veto” the decolonisation committee. You'd know this if you wasn't an idiot.
c-24 is not even mandatory to comply with.
For example, if you was having this issue with spain, whom do not have a chair on the security council. You would still be having the same problem because the c24 is not mandatory.
The only good thing about Argentina
Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0is their is hope, sadly not her bloggers, ain that right guzzy,
It is hilarious when an Argentino writes about “an implanted population” in the Falkland Islands.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Between 1857 and 1930 net immigration into Argentina amounted to 3.5 million, meaning that app. 60 percent of the entire population increase was due to immigrants, some 46 percent Italian and 32 percent Spanish.
By 1914 app 30 percent of the total population was born in another country - the Argentinos constitute an implanted population.
This article is probably misleading, in terms of opinion polls. It doesn't add that the opinion polls are largely inaccurate, and the figure for 'Yes' will almost certainly be higher that 25-35%. The SNP can't get a fair chance to speak to the rest of my country, because of the large influence the BBC has over us, e.g. radio, TV. The unionist campaign already has an ace up their sleeve, but I still think we will get there, and break free from the UK.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The only reason we joined was because of the failures of a few dozen nobles, who didn't represent the normal hard-working people, and decided to go to England for a bailout. Since then, the Scots have held this moderate feeling of resentment towards the union.
By next year, the opinion polls (which should have at least 100,000 SCOTS, not English or anyone else) will definitely increase, I'm sure of that.
By the way, if you haven't noticed, I'm voting 'Yes' in the referendum.
one nation one country.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0you wanna go [25] then go.
but lets wait untill 2014, before you set sail.
cheers.
(still) “United Kingdom” AKA Titanic.....the iceberg is comming, now is really a good time for make a good deal about Malvinas and back home with few pound while you can....the adventure is over, is just matter of time...you know it. please be smart, is inevitable.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0.So far you talk crap.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Facts are facts,
They are less them one millilitre away,
And they will remain less than a millimetre away.
And in the wings are the federalists,
An Unelected president.
Until 2014 they are British, full stop.
So take you dilapidated country your envy and your jealousy and give it to CFK, she needs it..not us..
/////////////////////
Remember history waits for no man,
And only a fool, jumps before he looks.
@28 The UK is a union of countries, not necessarily a single country. That's another reason why many want to leave.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You obviously believe that Scotland is better off being a part of the UK, but that isn't the case. Maybe you should look at both sides of the argument, and then reply to this if you still hold the same view or not.
I love all the argies on here screaming and laughing, yet completely forgetting that the vast majority of Scots in opinion polls have been against independence.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Actually even if the Scottish vote for independence they will still be British, because Scotland is part of the British Isles.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As for independence we'll just have to wait and see. If Scotland truly wants independence and votes for it, good luck to them, but I don't believe that independence is currently in their best interests.
Also it was the Scottish Crown that took over the English Crown, James VI (1st of England), and it was his desire to unite the 2 Kingdoms fully, although he never lived to see his dream fulfilled.
Scotland has benefited from the Union, just as England, Wales and N. Ireland have. It'll be a pity if they leave, but even if they do vote for it in 2014, it'll probably take time to sort out all the legal stuff, such as percentage of the Armed Forces and equipment they are entitiled to, and the percentage of the national debt they will have to take on board. I don't know how that'll be worked out, and to be honest I don't know if the politicians from any of the parties have thought about it in depth. They're probably going to wait for the outcome, then haggle about it should it be necessary.
But the sad thing is that if Scotland does vote for independence then Scotland itself could find itself breaking apart.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/30/shetland-independence-vote-scotland
The Shetland and Orkney islands are looking at remaining in the UK if Scotland votes to cede. I wonder how that will affect Scotland.
If the majority of Scots vote for independence, then there will be independence. If the majority of Scots vote to remain in the Union, then they will remain in the Union. It is a matter for the Scots. All in all, democrcay will be the winner.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@30 Opinion polls are inaccurate. Just saying
Oct 16th, 2012 - 04:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@33
Oct 16th, 2012 - 04:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not always. After all during the last Quebec independence campaign the large bulk of the opinion polls said that it would be defeated by a slight majority. And what happened? It was defeated by a slim majority. The same occurred in the referendums for the Monarchy in Australia and the independence referendum for South Sudan, opinion polls don't lie.
It is a United Kingdom of states and provinces based on the self determination of the people who live in each part.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 05:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If the people of the isle of Man want to leave the United Kindom they can choose to, they don't.
If the people of st Helena want to leave the United Kingdom, they can choose to, they don't.
If the people of Northern Ireland want to leave the United Kingdom, they can choose to, they don't.
If the people of Pitcairn or the South Sandwich Islands want to leave to UK, they can choose to, they don't.
If the people of Scotlant want to leave the UK, they can choose to, and they will make their choice in 2014.
If the people of the Falklands want to leave the UK they can choose to, they will make their choice in 2013.
Pretty much only England doesn't get the choice!!
However, if the people of Patagonia chose not to be Argentinian, the troops would be sent in, if the Amerindians wanted their own homeland the Latinos would subject them to genocide...if the people of the Falklands for two hundred years said they wanted nothing to do with a country 300 miles away..they live under the constant threat of invasion....
See the difference...not something to be proud of is it?
Long Live Scotland.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 05:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Long Live Republic.
@34 Picking 3,000 so-called 'Scots' out of 5 million isn't reflecting the overall majority's view on the issue. That's why it's more likely to be inaccurate than accurate.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 010
Oct 16th, 2012 - 05:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0RBS ?
@36 - Alexx
Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Scotland won't be a republic (they would have to hold another referendum to change their constitution) they would remain a constitutional monarchy.
They would keep the Queen as Head of State. She is, after all, Queen Elizabeth I of Scotland. I mean, King James VI of Scotland (1st of England) was her 9th great grandfather. He was the one who envisioned the United Kingdom in the 1st place, although he didn't live to see his dream come true.
@37
Oct 16th, 2012 - 07:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you going to continue scoping out everything I say? O f course taking the opinions of 1000+ people is not entirely accurate but it is the best system we have. But you haven't looked at what I said did you? The same methods of polling were carried out in Quebec and those results reflected the overall outcome.
What is hilarious in all these discussions is the mis-belief that England/Britain/UK wants to “keep” any nation/province/state against their will.
Oct 16th, 2012 - 07:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0These days are long since past....at least seventy years.
Why does Britain fight so strongly for Northern Ireland...because the majority of the people who live there WANT to be British. Ditto the Falkland Islands.
If Scotland wish to leave the Union, by a majority vote, good luck. Farewell.
David Cameron would personally BENEFIT from Scottish Independence, but he supports the Union because he believes it is best for all.
Most English couldn't care less either way...and in fact would more readily support the Falklands staying in the Union than the Scots or the Welsh!!
41
Oct 16th, 2012 - 09:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is that because the Scots and Welsh are good folks, or entirely other reasons?
37
Oct 16th, 2012 - 11:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0listen,
corruption , landowners , kings , greedy bastards, money , greed ,
this problem should have been solve hundreds or years ago.
one country, one nation,
full stop.
you cant run away just because you dont like it that we are going throgh a bad time,
in with the good, in with the bad,
we could sit here and make the argies laugh at us,
your opinion, my opinion.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
but i would just like to point out 3 items of iterest,
1, scotland has never ever been run by an English goverment,
2, england HAS been run by a purley scottish goverment,
[gorden browns was a purley scottish goverment,
3, if you dont like them, vote em out, dont run away....
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
awaiting in the wings with open arms is an unilected president, in a futuristic federlest state just awaiting.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
like i said, we could through things at each other forever and it would be worthles and irrelivent...
but you cannot vote out,, some who you cannot vote in,
and i strongly suggest, that scotland will get no further than brussels,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
2014, thats the time to vote, not now, thats the time history will or will not change,
but untill then you are british, whenver you like it or not,
remember the thousands of scots , irish , welsh , English , who have given their lives, in order that in 2014 you can go,,,,,,,,,
please dont insult them, they cant fight back,
they were freely born under the union jack, and died under it,
2014, thats the time , thats the place.
thanks
@43 Okay, now you're beginning to make yourself look foolish. Read what you just posted 10 times, then think, and you'll come to the conclusion that half of it doesn't make sense. Gordon Brown wasn't a government, and the Cabinet wasn't 100% Scottish. The English majority government still rules over issues that we want control of. We're going away because we've put up with the bullshit of the UK government for over 30 years, and they are affecting us the most
Oct 17th, 2012 - 01:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0And finally, I'll always be Scottish. Not British, English or Welsh. SCOTTISH!!
In future, if you are replying to any of my posts, try make it understandable and non-insulting. Thanks
The times of kick out the english invasor is close in every corner of the planet earth..
Oct 17th, 2012 - 03:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Free Scotland !
Free Ireland !
Free Wales !
Free every single inch of colony in the globe !
A nuremberg style court for England should be mandatory.....
“How England ruin the world”
vimeo.com/150935
@45 - so_far
Oct 17th, 2012 - 05:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0You obviously know nothing about British history. It was the Scottish who took over England not the other way round.
Your post should be saying 'free England' from Scottish invaders, oh I forgot, the Scoti from Ireland, er, so free England from Irish invasion.
However, unlike your country of Argentina. Britain lives in the 21st century and has good relationships with those who made up the former British Empire. It's called the Commonwealth of nations.
Whether Scotland remains part of the Union or not is up to their people, but they will remain part of the Commonwealth.
How frustrating it must be for you Argentinians to see that in the modern world that nations can have grown up relationships based on mutual respect. I mean if this was happening in Argentina right now, CFK would be sending in the troops to put down any province that tried to go its own way.
46
Oct 17th, 2012 - 06:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sadly enough, the Scots didn't push all the way to London when they had the chance. Whole UK habitated by Gaelic Kelts would have changed history for the better. And Lep, it's not Patagonia discussing independence, it's the proud Scots.
44 THEMan
Oct 17th, 2012 - 09:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0then the sooner you go the better.
@47 - Guzz
Oct 17th, 2012 - 10:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your post is funny. Yes the pretender 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' lost his bottle and didn't take London, but then he didn't really have enough troops to take and hold it, especially as the Scottish who were loyal to the true King where gathering their forces together.
He was eventually defeated at Culloden by...the Scottish!!! Gosh how about that eh? The Scottish fighting other Scots men.
If you truly understood the history, the fight was really between Catholics and Protestants, and the Protestant Scottish Army won long before the English Army (which was busy fighting in Holland) returned.
I know its hard for you to understand that the majority of Scots were on King George's side, although 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' has a place in the hearts of most modern Scots with a romantacised story behind it.
Bonnie Prince Charlie ran away and left his men to be slaughtered at Culloden, and then ran to Ireland and raised an Army, and lost again, this time to English and Irish troops - hence the Orange order.
@44 - THEMan
The only way you can stop being British is to emigrate away from the British Isles. You see British people come from the British Isles whether they are Scottish, English, Welsh or Irish (yes Ireland is part of the group of Islands that make up the British Isles).
It would be like someone from Ghana saying that they are not African because they come from Ghana, despite Ghana being part of Africa.
Being Scottish I thought you would've known that.
we cant say nothing to him
Oct 17th, 2012 - 12:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0he is from scotland,
and not british.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
very sad.
@49 LEP so you're basically saying that we should label a person's ethnicity based on which continent or island they live on, and have no say or right in what they want to be called. I would think the Irish would disagree with you on that one. The Ghanians wouldn't like it either, just being referred to as African.
Oct 17th, 2012 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0My point is, it's my choice to decide if I'm British or Scottish, not you or anybody else.
you made ya point,
Oct 17th, 2012 - 01:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0come 2014 you can go your own way.
full stop.
@52 showing your 'anti-Scottishness' , good for you.
Oct 17th, 2012 - 02:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0your the one who wishes to go.
Oct 17th, 2012 - 02:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 02012 and you can go.
anti scot, thats you sounding like an argie,
im in favour of one nation one country, as you well know...
thats why i get this niggling feeling that you may well be a very annoyed nationalist come 2014,
or in English,
you aint going nowhere old chap.
you will be in the same place in 2015 as you were in 2012.
still what do i know,
im just british, and proud of it.
@52 - THEMan
Oct 17th, 2012 - 02:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm not talking about ethnicity. It's just simple fact. The British Isles encompass, and have always encompassed the larger island known as Great Britain (meaning the largest area - but we are great too), Ireland, and all the smaller islands around both of the larger land masses.
You can be both British and Scottish, it is not a contradiction. By saying you are not British is like saying Scotland is no longer a part of the British Isles, which it obviously will still be no matter how the referendum goes.
You point about the Irish isn't necessarily true either. They know that the group of Islands standing off the NW European continent are the British Isles.
Most Northern Irish people refer to themselves as being Irish and British. So does my mother, and she's from Eire.
You see you are letting you 'nationalistic' pride get in the way here. Next you'll be telling me that you're not European, despite living on the European continental shelf.
There is one thing I wouldn't mind asking you though. How do you feel about the fact that the SNP will have to sign over most of the newly independent governments powers to the EU in order to become a member?
I mean, you want independence from the Union where you have a voice and an equal share of everything, only to give it all away to a bunch of unelected officials in Europe. It just doesn't make sense to me.
What are your thoughts?
An interesting question.for [[ theman..[[
Oct 17th, 2012 - 02:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0For the British, ultimately will withdraw from the European union.
Good or bad, we all know, [we aint stupid]
The German French ideal is a federate state of loose nations. With a Unelected president.
And members will do as they are told,
We get enough of that already,
Some say, the republic of Ireland spend decades gaining independence, only to hand over their sovereignty and thus become dependant on the EU .
Some say a dependency.
surely being British cant be that bad.
Besides we cant be rich out of debt and powerful all the time.
Sorry for the imput.
Just a thought.
@55 LEP My point is, it's our choice if we want to be called British or Scottish, not yours. That's all there is to that. The term British isn't used to describe someone who is from these Isles, but part of the UK sovereign state. We don't want to be referred to as British as most people get the idea that we are all the same, have the same history, accent or culture when we don't. We may share certain areas of history, but we don't. We leave the UK, and we will have our own identity and won't have to be controlled by an English-majority UK government.
Oct 17th, 2012 - 04:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As for your question, I should point out that the SNP are discussing a possible EU referendum for the Scottish people after they get independence, so it's not as clear cut as it seems.
You said that we get a fair say in what happens in the UK government. However, as I said, that isn't true as we only have around 50 MPs that can't really do anything on behalf of Scotland in terms of voting. Also, that gives me another thought. A question for you now LEP:
Wouldn't you like for the UK to have separate governments for each country, and not just one? Governments that can do more to improve your country, and not focus on others?
It's annoying how we never got the devo-max question in the referendum, because that was an alternative that I could've lived with.
Lep
Oct 17th, 2012 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So, because the protestants won it means they were majority? I got news for you, if battles are won by majority, they don't fight, they count. The whole process actually has a name, it's called voting.
@57 - THEMan
Oct 17th, 2012 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Really? It wasn't that long ago that Salmond was espousing the benefits of being in the European Union.
As for your question. I believe in the Union, because we are stronger as a whole, but giving each member state it's own government is a good idea. That would include England, which is the only part of the UK that doesn't have it's own voice seperate to the UK Parliament.
The UK parliament should be responsible for foreign policy and defence, and other matters that are applicable to all the member countries.
I have some other questions I was wondering if you could answer. I have looked on different sites and the SNP are rather vague on how they're going to fund an independent economy.
Yes they keep mentioning the North Sea, but conveniently forget that if they cede from the UK they cede from the treaty of the North Sea, which was negotiated in the 1950's. So the treaty would've to be renegotiated and Scotland may not get as much oil and gas as they assume. Plus the gas and oil reserves are running out and may be gone in as little as 40 years.
Now the questions I would ask the SNP before the vote would be these, can you clarify them for me, if you know the answer?
Will healthcare still be free?
Will I have to pay for my drugs?
Will education remain free?
What proportion of the national debt will Scotland have to assume?
What about defence?
What currency will be used?
What will be the tax rate?
I mean Scotland population is 5,254,800. Now it's estimated that 17% of the population are under 16 (children) and a further 17% are over 65 (retired)! That leaves 66% at working age, with approx 8.2% unemployed (it could actually be less than this).
So how will the tax system work? Will it be based on the UK tax system? Can free university education be afforded?
I honestly don't know the answer, do you? The SNP seem rather vague on it all. Now if my future was in the balance I'd want specifics before casting my vote.
LEP
Oct 17th, 2012 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You might be right. history has shown that negotiations with the UK (as in England) is quite impossible. You are not invisible, not at all, but quite transparent. I most surely don't blame Scotland for decisions made in London.
More important is common people though, and of all the Scots I've met, there's not many I can speak bad about. Of the Brits I've met, a majority are good, the best ones are amazing people. But then there is that other side of the coin.
Being British surely covers a whole bunch of people, values and morals. But as an identity it is much as being American. America is a continent, while being American is being yanqui. Britain, or the British Isles, are just that, isles. Being British is being English. I know this, because I've met you ;)
@60 - Guzz
Oct 17th, 2012 - 09:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What history? References please.
The Scottish are British, so are the Welsh and the English and the Irish.
Your problem Guzz is that you are a racist. You also look at history and judge Britain from hundreds of years ago by today's standards, using of course the benefit of hindsight.
The people of those times didn't have the benefit of hindsight, so they could only do what they thought of as being right.
You say you don't blame Scotland for decisions made in London, despite the fact that over 50 of the MPs making those decisions are Scottish. Hmm interesting.
Even when the Prime Minister was Scottish, nothing is the fault if Scotland, only England. Yup you are a racist and a bigot.
You have not met me, you don't know English people, or Scottish people, or Welsh people, or Irish people. We may have had our problems historically but we all get on really well. Yes we make fun of each other, have friendly rivalry between the different countries in the Union, but that's what families do.
You know the British as well as any other Argentinian. You tried to get the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament on your side over the Falklands. Both nations told you to feck off. Remember Sir Galahad! Remember Tumbledown!
That's how much you understand the British, not at all.
If the Scottish people want to leave the Union, good luck to them. Unlike places like Argentina we don't oppress people. Yes we did in the past, but then so did your ancestors when they oppressed and murdered the people of South America.
My family, however, never oppressed anyone, unless you count my mother invading from Eire to live in England. Yup, she's running around right now oppressing all the English.
Your ignorance Guzz is monumental. Oh and you never did answer the question I put forward on another thread.
Do you support the Taliban who tried to murder a 14 year old girl for speaking out against them?
Don't be a coward Guzz, answer the question.
LEP
Oct 17th, 2012 - 09:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, I've met you lot. Many summers did I spend working in Tenerife. You could tell who the Irish were, a easily as you could tell a Scot from a Brit. First of all, basically no Scot or Irishman would say “I'm British” if not for paperwork, when almost every Englishman would refer to himself as British. Secondly, the behaviour. I almost got eaten alive trying to stop an Irish family from singing in the corridors. One could complain about their timing, but there was nothing wrong about their family values. The Scots were always peaceful and quiet and all of them, Brits included, were polite. But the behaviour of some guests, amazingly all from England, tought me that there is more to it than just the UK...
And no, I donøt support any shooting of kids, as I don't support the Taliban. Which isn't the same that you lot are right killing children 2 blocks away...
@65 - Guzz
Oct 17th, 2012 - 10:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are generalising, a typically racist thing to do. You met a few people while they were on holiday. People on holiday act differently than they do when at home.
So no, you don't know the British at all.
Where is your proof that we are killing children? Proof Guzz, not your opinion. You even stated on another post that I was a murderer, yet you fail to produce evidence. That makes you a liar, doesn't it?
That's all any of your racist rants are, your opinion, and a very poorly formed stereotypical opinion at that.
Oh the jolly Irish were drunk and singing! The Scots were no doubt chasing a Haggis whilst tossing the cabre, and the Welsh were forming a male voice choir and eating leeks, were they? Try slagging off the British to a Scottish man. He'd rip your head off and spit down your neck. An English man would headbutt you, and a Welsh man would pound you into the ground. The Northern Irish would probably do all of the above.
You see, despite our difference of opinion, the four countries of the Union, and Eire will always back each other up, when push come to shove.
Especially against racists like you no advocate the ethnic cleansing of people.
Hanan Saleh Matrud - Little girl of 8 years
Oct 17th, 2012 - 11:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hanan Shmailawi - Housewife and mother
Ahmed Jabbar Kareem Ali - Boy of 17 years
@59 LEP Here's my attempt at answers for those questions;
Oct 17th, 2012 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 01. Healthcare isn't free in the UK (National Insurance). The SNP have been vague at these issues, but would probably handle it better than the UK government. My bet would be that the structure would stay similar to what is going on right now, maybe a few modifications alongside costs.
2. Personally, I'd stop giving free prescriptions to those who can easily afford to pay for it, as it could put the costs up. Easily fixed problem.
3. Our education is actually paid for through our taxes (primary and secondary) so there would be very little change to the infrastructure. Free university could still be achieved, I'm sure, but I wouldn't understand the process that they would undergo to keep it that way.
4. The debt issue is complex and will take a long time to sort out. Generally, the debt would have to be split according to the population, or by more complex ways that I couldn't begin to describe.
5. Defence will be split according to the population, and how much of it was built in Scotland. Either way would sort that. Depends on the value of the equipment. All the UK's missiles will be removed from Faslane and other sites, as the SNP oppose them. The Trident or Vanguard system would almost certainly be removed too for the same reason. We'd also get into NATO relatively easily, like many other small nations e.g. Estonia, Holland, Belgium, Portugal (may be wrong on these countries being members, but you get my point).
6. Now tax is probably not that complex. If we were to have our own currency, it would be called the Scottish pound as it was our original currency before the Union Act. We could also share the same currency in a eurozone type of way, and have the BoE set the interest rates. Can't go into too much detail with that. The tax system will probably be similar too, but minor changes will occur.
The UK govt are always sending out propaganda that we solely rely on England, when that's a lie. Outofspace
63
Oct 17th, 2012 - 11:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0wasted time,
just wait untill 2014,
then and only then, will the people decide.
untill then, nothing else is irrelivent.
The independence campaign is already at a serious disadvantage because of the influence that the BBC, ITV and several English newspapers have over us. These forms of media are always anti-Scottish or pro-unionist and can never give the average Scottish listener a fair view of the reality or possible outcomes. It's always 'Oh, oh, the Scots are subsidy junkies and can't fend for themselves' or 'they don't pay any taxes' or 'oil is running out very quicky' when it isn't the case. We need to restrict their involvement in the campaign leading to the referendum, in order to make it fair, balanced and unbiased. This ensures that we will all have the correct info we need to make an informed choice in our future. How about that suggestion?
Oct 17th, 2012 - 11:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Can't do that Theman, that would mean you are restricting the freedom of the press. You see, they deal marked cards and then they condemn you when you cheat...
Oct 17th, 2012 - 11:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@68 Guzz good point, but there are certain policies that can still enforce the idea.
Oct 17th, 2012 - 11:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@65 - THEMan
Oct 18th, 2012 - 09:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0So to condense your post down. You are going to vote for independence based on some rather vague idea of how it's all going to work!
Well if I were you I'd be pestering the SNP to outline EXACTLY how it's all going to work in DETAIL before casting your vote, because if they get it wrong , Scotland will be left bankrupt.
Oh, can you present some evidence of all this anti-Scottish propaganda that you are accusing the English of posting? Or is it that these people are asking the very questions that you yourself have not asked, which is basically how is it going to work.
I mean look what happened to Eire when they gained independent. The Nationalist ruling government hated the British so much that they refused to trade with the British Empire. Belfast, which had been an important trading city became a ghost town overnight. Eire became bankrupt, and lots of Irish families left Ireland and started new lives in other countries around the world.
It has taken Ireland over 90 years to finally pull itself out if the financial blackhole the nationalist party policies left them in.
I remember as a child in the 70's visiting my mothers relations in Co. Limerick. They'd written to her to told her how they'd just been given a brand new house to live in by the council.
When we got there, their brand new house was a 4 room breeze block building with a corrugated iron roof.
Thank God Ireland has improved hugely since then.
My point is that you can't run a country successfully on ideals alone. Find out what the SNPs economic policies are, study them, listen to alternative points of view, then come to an informed decision.
Maybe this won't be the right time to leave the Union, maybe it will. If its not, it doesn't mean that Scotland can't vote again at some point in the future when global conditions will be better.
70
Oct 18th, 2012 - 10:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0some are so wound up they will not listen.. anti anti is a growing forse today, and will result in only one poss,,outcome,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
anyway, this is not the place,
might we suggest they read the following, you proberbly have already seen it,,,,,,,,,,,,just a thought........
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Scotland could afford 'regional defence force'
The report's authors, defence consultant and former army officer Stuart Crawford and economist Richard Marsh, began by defining the defence needs of an independent Scotland and then devised a force structure to achieve them.
http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=21167
read this and other reports on the right hand side.
The experts are abound..
@71 - Briton
Oct 18th, 2012 - 12:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is precisely the type of point I was trying to make to THEMan. The SNP have been extremely vague on the whole way the economics of an Independent Scotland would work.
Despite what THEMan has claimed, Scotland can't afford it's own seperate currency, which was why they had hoped to adopt the Euro until the global economic meltdown.
In fact, if they want to join the EU they will have to accept the Euro, and their fiscal policies dictated to them from Brussels.
If they retain the pound, they will have to follow the fiscal policies of the UK, which will make people wonder why they've even bothered with Indpendence in the 1st place.
Education is another matter that the SNP have fudged over. Look here:
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/Community/College-and-University/article/22998/scottish-university-fees-system-branded-a-farce-as-northern-irish-students-look-to-exploit-loophole.html
Basically people from EU can get free university education in Scotland, but if you're Welsh, English or Northern Irish you can't (which is strange because we're all from the EU too).
So if they remain in the EU, but cede from the Union, that means that anyone from anywhere in the EU can go to university in Scotland without paying university fees. The Scottish taxpayer will have to pay, even for English, Welsh, Irish & other EU students!
I'm sure the Scottish taxpayer is going to just love that.
Scotland's pop. is approx 1/6 of the entire UK population. That means they will get approx 1/6 of all the assets, and approx 1/6 of the national debt. It could also mean that they only get 1/6 of the North Sea gas & oil revenue, either that or the whole North Sea oil & gas treaty will have to renegotiated, and other countries may use that as a way of increasing their share.
Also many serving Scots I know say they won't join an independent Scottish military, they'll stay in the UK military, as they think the SNP have got their no's wrong and don't want to lose their pensions.
well 2014 will decide, but as a unionist i think they will stay.
Oct 18th, 2012 - 12:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@73 - briton
Oct 18th, 2012 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well the most recent polls show 58% in favour of remaining in the Union, and only 30% (a drop of 6%) for independence, so you're probably right.
I think the PM won by insisting that they have a straight forwards yes/no vote. Most Scots would like more devoluted powers, but are wary, and rightly so, of full independence. Especially when the SNP are avoiding answering any questions on how they're going to fund it all.
agreed.
Oct 18th, 2012 - 10:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0and hopefully out or the Euro gravy train.
and billions re-invested in the uk.
heres hopeing.
@74 LEP I've got all the info I need to to decide on my vote, and will still be 'Yes'. And the SNP has 2 years to explain fully what their plan is for an independent Scotland's economy to the voters. More than enough time, in my opinion. If you've paid any attention to any political programmes with them on, they've clearly explained what they want to do, and how they'd go about doing it. Don't sit here and argue with me, because I'm not an economist, but neither are you. No-one can predict what will happen if we go independent, be it on education, taxes, or currency (which isn't very complicated, and YES we would be strong enough for our own currency, top experts have confirmed this, and so did many of the MPs). Therefore, until the referendum actually happens, every skeptic or supporter is incorrect. Let's wait until 2014. Oh, and I should point out that 50% of polls aren't actually conducted in Scotland with Scottish people, so most of them are bullshit. And the others have only 1,000 or such, so they may not represent the nation's overall view on independence. Just saying
Oct 19th, 2012 - 12:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@76 THEMan
Oct 19th, 2012 - 03:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well you seem to have made up your mind, that's fine.
By the way where is your proof that the polls aren't conducted in Scotland?
The last poll conducted in England showed a larger percentage of English wanted Scotland to become independent than Scottish people.
From your posts I think you are a student. You are young and full a national pride (nothing wrong with that) and are eager to make your way in the world.
But common sense would indicate that before cutting your safety net you should know exactly how all your equipment works (in this case the economy), because if you go independent and the numbers don't add up, you can say goodbye to free healthcare (national insurance from Scottish taxpayers falls dramatically short of funding an NHS type system in Scotland), and like Eire you will have to pay to see a GP.
In Eire it's currently €20 per visit. Hospital admission would require you to have private health insurance for certain procedures, and you would have to pay for ambulances too.
Worrying about these things after independence seems at best naive and at worst suicidal.
What about the UK governments bailout of the Scottish banks? Scotland will have to pay 5/6 of those costs back. You'll only be entitled to 1/6 of the oil revenue. You'll have to accept 1/6 of the national debt.
So yes, THEMan you need to start asking these questions BEFORE voting. The SNP need to be able to show the Scottish people that independence won't mean a loss of services that they now enjoy.
@77 LEP recent reports say that the banks are on target to repay all of their loans from the government and taxpayer by the end of this year. So I don't understand where you're getting that point from.
Oct 19th, 2012 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You ask for proof of my claim about the polls. Fair request. Well, I can't provide any concrete evidence, but can you provide me with concrete evidence that the people who responded to the polls, were in fact Scottish?
Also, need to remind you that healthcare isn't free in any place in the UK. We all pay for it through national insurance. Costs may go up slightly for prescriptions, but I would support it. Also, I'd pay for a GP visit too, as they are constantly getting their time wasted by missed appointments. Fair?
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