MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Falklands will ‘forever remember’ Baroness Thatcher for having liberated the Islands
The Falkland Islands government expressed great sadness at the news of the death of Baroness Thatcher on Monday. The brief message from Gilbert House was signed by MLA Mike Summers on behalf of the Legislative Assembly of the Falklands. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesThe death of a wonderful woman!
Apr 08th, 2013 - 02:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0She was the best, most honest and direct prime minister this country
has ever had. The politicians that have succeeded her are pale imitations.
And so will Chile for her help in putting Argentine aggression and colonial pretensions back in their box.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0RIP Milk Snatcher. I promised myself I wouldn't say anything nasty about you when you died, so I will just stick to listing all the positives I can think of to say about you:
Apr 08th, 2013 - 02:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You resigned (eventually).
She (with the brave British military) returned freedom to the islanders, returned a form of to democracy to Argentina and protected Chile and possibly Uruguay from “being next”.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 02:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0may she rest in peace and condolences to her family.
The oldest union in history, the guild of Madame's, the Mistresses of green and red lights, the late streetworkers and the traders of pleasure declare in unison:
Apr 08th, 2013 - 02:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“This woman
http://cdn1.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/images/margaret-thatcher.jpg
is NOT our daughter. Despite what you say,”
Rest in peace Maggie, a strong an brave British woman. Very sad day.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 02:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Rest in peace, Iron Lady ... and my sincere condolences to her family.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 02:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A very great leader indeed, sorely missed.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 02:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@3 School milk was already being phased out under the Labour government prior to the Conservatives being elected. It is probably better to check the facts rather than just swallowing catchy propaganda slogans.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 02:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If anyone cares to look at the disastrous socialist policies of the seventies and the wreck of an economy we had then, with a country held to ransom by trade unions more interested in power than the welfare of their members, you can see that she was the right PM for that time. When everyone thought it impossible to move to a free market economy, end failing communism in the world (actually state capitalism), and defend the rights and responsibilities of the individual, she did it.
I don't know that she would be right in modern politics but she was remarkable in her time. We see many leaders come and go but few deserve a prominent place in history.
RIP Maggie.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0RIP Baroness.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 09 ElaineB
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well said.
The reason she would be right for modern politics is she would get rid of the likes of Cameron before they had chance to ruin the country in the way they have.
@3 You always come up with the wrong thing at the wrong time, you weren't in the communist party were you?
@9 ElaineB
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Spare me your hackneyed propagandist codswallop.
RIP, you saved us!
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Pathetic and sad.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Surely history is remembered for his support of racism, colonialism and imperialism of the 20th century English. Also supported by Galtieri before 1982 in the implementation of the national security doctrine and the state terrorism and the result of the 30,000 missing.
Besides we all will remember for genocide committed by General Belgrano cruiser.
Like Galtieri, may God have mercy on his soul for his crimes.
I respect her actions in 1982,when the right thing needed doing she didn't cave in
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@9 ElaineB, as a Falkland Islander I am eternally grateful for the decisions taken by Margaret Thatcher in 1982, May she rest in peace and my sincere condolences to her family.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But I lived through her era in the UK and there were great faults on all sides and serious issues that required decisive attention. She was decisive certainly but we were left naked without manufacturing industries and I well recall a report of a conversation between Maggie and Ronald Reagan which went something like this.
Maggie tells Ronald that the new era in the UK would rely and prosper on service industries, Ronald replies, 'Well Maggie, that may well be right, but I don't quite see how we can all make a living by opening doors for each other'
We are certainly her children and inheritors of her legacies good and bad.
@15 - if you want to see pathetic and sad try a mirror.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thatcher was a divisive figure and I didn't share her politics. However she doesn't deserve any of the charges you lay against her, particularly the race one. Just this weekend in the Sunday Times the role she played in persuading de Klerk to release Mandela and hold elections was discussed. And she was a prime mover in the end of the Cold War.
You're just sore because she was instrumental in kicking your ass back across the South Atlantic. The Belgrano was inside the exclusion zone, knew as much and was a war vessel. In fact you should be thanking Thatcher for ending the military junta and giving you the lovely Kirchners to lead your country into the promised land.
Good luck with that.
The Belgrano was an enemy warship, it was at sea to attack and kill our sailors, she made the absolute right decision in giving the order to sink it. I regret as she did, the loss of life on the Belgrano, but it was a cruel necessity of war, nothing more than that.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thank god she had the courage to make the decision she did, it undoubtedly saved countless lives on our side.
The moral of the story is, people come and go , but MALVINAS son ARGENTINAS FOREVER.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0PS. Maggie enjoy Galtieri's company...LMAO
“Thatcher ending the military junta”
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's is the lamest piece of intent I've heard to rewrite history :)
I'm sure more will follow :)
@17. I am not supporting every decision she made.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some times hard decisions have to made with a long-term view. The changes made during her time were a hard and bitter pill to swallow for many but good in the long term. IMO.
On balance I would judge her as a great leader at the right time.
@15 how fucking dare you compare lady Thatcher with that murdering land grabbing piece of shit Galtieri, Typical deluded Argie comment. Argentina started hostilities by invading the islands unfortunately for the Belgrano & her crew. I suggest you direct the blame for all deaths of Argentinas aggressive invasion squarely at the feet of the murdering junta of the time.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0RIP Iron Lady.
Raul
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are the racist, you want to colonise the Falklands and expand the Argentine Empire.
You were the one cheering Galtieri and support his “war”
Isn't it strange how your self-loathing, self-pitying nature is actually leading you to reflect on the person you should be thanking for delivering your freedom...only for you to waste it voting in the corrupt scum that lead Argentina today.
I pity you Raul. I hope your self-loathing doesn't lead you to suicide.
P.s.
The Belgrano wasn't genocide, it was the sinking of the warship during a conflict, just as your sinking of our ships in the same conflict wasn't Genocide...stupid misuse of a word, from a thick twat like you.
23
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“how fucking dare you compare lady Thatcher with that murdering land grabbing piece of shit Galtieri”
I think the comparison lays in “murdering, land grabbing piece of shit”...
@15
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Raul please, genocide, really?
We were at war, a war started by you. You started the fight and she finished it.
You should have more humility in defeat.
not my favorite politican to say the least but the fact she served argentina its ass on a plate makes that moment in british history “priceless”
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0SELF-DETERMINATION.........is not for turning!!!
RIP Maggie.
@20
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Pesky army...
The Malvinas are Argentine forever....I assume you mean the Falklands Islands, and you have an interesting interpretation of “forever”.
As of today, the Falkland Islands have been “Argentine” for the sum total of two months in 1982 and belonging to the UP for two months in 1832.
Based on the first recorded landing being in 1690, something like 1/1000 of that time have they been “Argentine”.
Interestingly, the last time they were “argentine”, there UN Security council issued a mandatory resolution for Argentine to withdraw, which hardly suggests that the world shares the view that the islands were Argentine then, and successive governments have attempted to blame “the Junta” and distance themselves from that “ownership”.
The first two months of the “Malvinas being Argentine” are not much to be proud of either. 50 or so “militia, their families, deportees, hired mercenaries and vagabonds” who landed, proceeded to rape, murder and mutiny, before being evicted without a fight....not sure that was a great success either.
However, if these two incidents make you believe in forever...good luck.
told you it would be a good day to see the finest of Argentina...
Apr 08th, 2013 - 03:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 029
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You mean Raul?
Can't compare that to the vileness of the ones you side with at the news of Chavez death.
As little as you can compare the amount of people mourning them both.
Thatcher was just not as important as Chavez, I insist.
Stevie, /John Troll/ Toby/ Nostril you can insist nothing, you come from a defeated colony. Crawl back under your stone
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@25 Stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Margaret Thatcher never murdered or stole anything. You should be ashamed of yourself for even implying it.
Argentina declared war on the UK by invading sovereign British territory, and threatening to 'ethnically cleanse' the people who lived there. The Belgrano, as confirmed by its own Captains testimony, was moving into a position to attack the Royal Naval fleet. Since Argentina had declared war on the UK it meant that any Argentine military vessel or plane were viable (meaning legally recognised under the Laws of Armed Conflict) targets regardless of where they were in the world. The exclusion zone was a legal requirement to ensure that 'innocent' neutral vessels didn't get caught in crossfire. All Argentine military vessels were targets. You should be thankful that we didn't bomb Argentine ports and airfields, which under the articles of war we were entitled to do.
The reason Argentine casualties were so high is because of the cowardice of the Belgrano's escorts, who ran leaving her crew to die in the frigid waters of the South Atlantic, even though the British said they wouldn't be fired upon during the rescue mission.
Your Junta were murderers and cowards. Very brave when threatening unarmed people, but no courage to face a similarly armed force.
Margaret Thatcher will be remembered as a great leader, on who put freedom and self-determination ahead of political expediency. Willing to be unpopular to do what she believed was right.
RIP Maggie. You were one of the truly great leaders the world has known.
Rest in peace Mrs Tatcher, great leader, great lady!
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Saved the falkland islanders from an evil illegal (UN resolution 502) invasion by the junta/government of Argentina and Britain from (old) labour.
If only Britain had had a real tough woman, a people's iron lady, like Cristina, (or a man!) who could have made the real “tough decisions” to stand up to the vested interests and champion the working and poor majority, instead of this bankster's mascot. Thatcher will not be remembered with the love of the overwhelming majority in the way Chavez was just a month ago, believe me...
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Willing to be unpopular to do what she believed was right.”
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Elegile el yugo a tu cuello tranquilo :)
That was seven years ago. Capt Bonzo, in an interview published (in Spanish) in the Argentinian newspaper Clarin today, says he does not believe, however, that it was a
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0war crime.
“It was an act of war. The acts of those who are at war, like the submarine's attack, are not a crime ... The crime is the war. We were on the front line and suffered the consequences. On April 30, we were authorised to open fire, and if the submarine had surfaced in front of me I would have opened fire with all our 15 guns until it sank.”
@21 well did defeat in its ill conceived invasion of the Falklands not lead to the end of the junta?
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I know English isn't your first language (at least I hope it isn't given all the mistakes in your post) but I'd say I was spot on the money. If you want to see history re-written try an Argentine classroom.
This will really get the puppet masters working full time with all their hate and venom.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Face the facts Argentina invaded a peaceful Island and was repelled thanks to Margaret Thatcher and our valiant military troops.
The UN backed the British cause with resolution 502.
Pity, died unpunished.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In 1983, Professor of Geography, Diana Gould, who was questioning in a BBC program, became stranded on a cross with the then Minister for this topic:
“He died unpunished”
In this regard, Mario Volpe, head of the Center for Veterans Falkland Islands (Cecim) said in a conversation with AFP that Margaret Thatcher, who died today at age 87, “died unpunished, without being judged.”
“He died with impunity, without being judged, it will not be remembered as someone who has contributed nothing to the peace,” said Volpe, 53, and found that the former British prime minister had the opportunity to stop the war of Malvinas, but that the decision to sink the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano intensified the war.
“Always remember that decision to sink the cruise because having the opportunity to have stopped the war, he never did, but the intensified”, said the former soldier, who was wounded in the shoulder and a punctured lung resulted in an attack of British artillery, on June 13, 1982, one day before the surrender of Argentina.
“In deciding the continuation of the war with the sinking of the Belgrano, Thatcher and the dictator no different [Lepoldo] Galtieri,” he added, on the de facto ruling that ordered the invasion of the southern archipelago April 2, 1982.
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1570718-el-hundimiento-del-general-belgrano-su-decision-mas-cuestionada
28 Monkeymagic
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Falklands have never been Argentine. They were possessed illegally both times, never owned or “Argentine”.
They never will be either, Mrs Thatcher and the Task Force she authorised in the face of doomsayers like Ray Gun Ronnie, et al has ensured that.
37
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not at all, the junta needed a success story in order to continue in power. The Islands were the excuse they chose and taking into account the similarities between Galtieri and Thatcher, who knows if they didn't do it in mutual understanding. Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
Same manure from a different horse.
41 ....ah Sherlock has cracked it, it was all a conspiracy!!! Jajajaja not the sharpest of tools in the box are we Colombo
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 041 Stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The real manure is the manure that appears in your mindless posts.
@41 let me explain for the hard of thinking (that's you, by the way)...
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The junta needed a success story - Thatcher ensured they didn't get it. Hence the junta fell.
What's so difficult to understand?
Alternatively maybe you are right. Galtieri arranged with Thatcher that he would invade, then the British would come and kick your asses so that both would have a massive success.....oh wait a minute. Suddenly doesn't look so good for Galtieri does it, that cosy arrangement?
You're an idiot, I'm done with you.
42, 43
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Never said that was the case, just saying it wouldn't surprise me a bit. Galtieri and his gang gets some cash, Thatcher gets a reason to militarize the zone. Win-win for both (same?) parties.
Galtieres Latin American machismo led him to believe that he could invade with impunity. He did not count on the Green Grocers daughter from Grantham having the courage to fight back, well she did and the rest is history.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Very sad to hear of the passing of Lady Thatcher. She was unique and a formidable politician. She could be tough as nails, but gentle & charming too. Most male politicians (especially foreign leaders) were amazed at her intelligence, insight & persuasiveness. She didn't tolerate fools, but she was very in favour of people who strived to do well, be it in business or to buy their own home.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0She not only saved her country from the unions, but put the Great back in Great Britain. She deregulated business and privatised state run businesses, a model that's been followed by every successful state in Europe & worldwide.
She helped America & Russia to come together & sign arms agreements. She recognised that she could do business with Gorbachev & when he wanted advice on how to deal with Ronald Reagan, he approached Margaret Thatcher for a briefing beforehand. It worked & created the START treaty to reduce the nuclear tension in Europe.
Without Margaret Thatcher, the Falkland Islanders would be living under the control of a Argentine dictatorship, as would Chile, Uruguay & Paraguay too & Argentine citizens would still be dropping out of helicopters above the River Plate, whilst the babies of political rivals were stolen & given to army officers.
Margaret Thatcher stood up for the rights of the Falkland Islanders and in doing so, she also created the circumstances that allowed the Argentines to gain democracy too.
More importantly though, Margaret Thatcher allowed the Falkland Islanders to claim the right to be full British citizens if they wanted it and from this, the Falkland Islands has gone from strength to strength, becoming self-sufficient with an economic surplus.
She will be remembered as the same breath as Churchill, because she led her country successfully in war and peacetime.
She was a great woman & leader. She was the Iron Lady.
39 Raul. I wonder if Mario Volpe committed any war crimes when he help in an illegal war started by a tinpot country.?
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I alway find it funny when Argentines try to make it sound like their military forces were of the side of right, when we all know the bastards were little better then the NAZIS!!!!!!
44
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wouldn't be the first, or the last, time Britain sends her troops under the flag of deception...
Personally I was never a great fan of hers in general. Had the UK decided not to flog one of its aircraft carriers to Australia as part of swingeing defence cuts (a decision quickly reversed) and withdrawing HMS Endurance then Galtieri might have thought twice about his “adventure” in the South Atlantic. Having said that the Falklands were recaptured by the superb efforts of our armed forces - it could have easily ended in tears. The US certainly decided it was a lost cause.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Having said that, she was the antithesis of CFK inasmuch that she wasn't a populist -if she believed in something she would force it through irrespective of whether she had the people on her side and that was her main attribute. Unfortunately, the Poll Tax was a “bridge too far” but she did drive through some much-needed changes to curb the excesses and restrictive practices of some of the more militant trades unions at the time (I am generally pro union, by the way - if they actually support their members)
I can understand that the Falklanders think the sun shone out of her backside and this is completely natural. For those of us who resided in Great Britain, we had a slightly different take on her. It could be said that the roots of the present financial crisis can be traced back to Thatcher and “light touch” city regulation - that's another discussion and I'm a scientist not an economist.
The trolls will try and denigrate Baroness Thatcher but it will be “water off a duck's back”.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some of the comments in Clarín are just evil - people seem to be be blind to the fact that had Argentina not invaded the Falkland Islands none of their brave servicemen would have lost their lives yet for some unfathomable reason these unseeing individuals forget that Argentina provoked the conflict with their totally illegal invasion. Britain responded, repelled the invasion and the Argentine armed forces surrendered “saliendo de regreso a su patria con los rabos entre las piernas”
Britain can move her troops around her territory however Britian likes, nothing untoward about that.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 049 Stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The only deception was the Argentinian invasion in 1982.
You can “twist” your words/story as much as you want, at the end of the day the result was the the same - Argentina with the backing of UN resolution 502 was sent home with their tails between their legs and the junta then collapsed under the stigma of defeat.
Steveu
Apr 08th, 2013 - 04:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0CFK does just that. No matter how much you cry, she will continue relentlessly on her path.
You seen to admire that trait :)
@54 She may be single minded regarding the Falklands but this has been largely a distraction to appease her more slavish followers and she has paid the price internationally with loss of credibility with her various stunts.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't see ending the Cold War as one of CFK's achievements but you are welcome to send her to see her friends in North Korea to have a motherly chat with Maximo's clone.
Geez.....I'm not British but could someone put a red dot on BK's nasal cavity?
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0BK either see for yourself the disaster alssips kircxhners has done to Argentina, to the point Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Colombia are all turning against her. Apparently sociilism, is you are the communist, the the economic system that keeps the poor poor....but almost feeds it too.
See Argentina first hand or shut the fuck up.
Godspeed Maggie....you were truly a leader of your time.
@54 Stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not when it is a path to line CFK's pockets, steal the land of others, and assure destruction of the economy and well being of the people she is supposed to represent in order to do that!
A trait you seem to admire.
55
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So she didn't only ended Argentina's dictatorship, now Thatcher ended the cold war now too?
Didn't she end the apartheid in South Africa as well?
Hahahahahaha!!!
@58
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You believe that CFK is a modern Evita - champion of the poor, hero of her people, right?
@58 Gorbachev recognises her role in ending the Cold War - is that good enough?
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0See http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/04/08/britain-thatcher-gorbachev-idINDEE9370BL20130408
If you're going to troll, please at least keep up with the adults!
Hands up all those who'd prefer to live in the Juntas' Argentina rather than Thatcher's Britain.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thatcher's stature in 20th century Britain is second only to Churchill's. Both had enemies, without and within. Both stood up to tyrants.
Steve
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who gave her the name, Iron lady?”
Steveu
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm sure you are aware of the slight difference in “helping to end” and to “end”.
I could plant a tree, thus helping to end the negative trend on amount of trees, but I'm not ending the deforrestation by any means...
@58 To answer your second point here is a link to Thatcher and Apartheid - it is a personal view of Peter Hitchens
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2006/08/nelson_mandela_.html
Apartheid was mainly ended by self determination (as was the fall of the Iron Curtain).
@58 Stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Didn't she end the apartheid in South Africa as well?
Hahahahahaha!!!”
No, certainly she did not. Mandela did, and a good thing too, as the South African Communist Party activists were burning down the schools and disrupting employment, and social order.
That is, burning down the schools of the Blacks and instigating riots in townships.
Steveu
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I've read that blog of yours, it doesn't tell why Thatcher stood against the sactions imposed on South Africa because of the apartheid. In fact, it makes it even more blurry.
It is amazing though how everything you've done in history is somebody elses fault, especially regarding the fact that blaming is just what you accuse others of doing...
I will state from the outset that I was no fan of Baroness Thatcher and her domestic policies. However I did agree with her action over the Falklands.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Raul
We are still peddling the old Belgrano myth.
Was it on a pleasure cruise or part of a proposed two pronged attack on the British Fleet ?
The UK had read the coded signals from the Argentine command and new the vessel's ultimate intentions.
If the Belgrano had moved into shallow water then Conqueror would have been unable to follow her and would have lost her position.
As she was a threat to our task force she was eliminated.
It is sad that so many young Argentinian men were killed, but that is what they were preparing to do to our young men.
War is a nasty business and “chivalry” has little or no part in it.
Argentine invaded the Falklands and by good luck rather than by design it was practically bloodless initially.
May I remind you that your country had plans to blow up British ships in Gibraltar, bomb merchant navy vessels on their way to the Falklands - all these actions would have predated the Belgrano incident and when peace talks WERE BEING PROPOSED. It was only because of incompetence by Argentina that they failed.
No-one is claiming that Thatcher had a 100% clean record on South Africa (the Tories from that time generally don't - Thatcher was certainly not the worst) but she was, at least, instrumental in helping getting Mandela released by putting pressure on the PW Botha regime. Cameron has apologised for some of the less savoury comments that she made - like I said in an earlier post, my view of her was mixed.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As Troy also commented, it was Mandela who was mainly responsible.
I only brought up her role in South Africa as you had mentioned it..
Great Woman, Great Leader, Great Prime Minister....Great Briton.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Fair enough, in England, la Thatcher will be remembered as the one who ended the Cold War, the Argentine dictatorship, the apartheid and also the inventor of citrus fruits.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The rest of the world will chuckle today and that's about it.
@66stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Steveu
I've read that blog of yours, it doesn't tell why Thatcher stood against the sactions imposed on South Africa because of the apartheid. In fact, it makes it even more blurry.
It is amazing though how everything you've done in history is somebody elses fault, especially regarding the fact that blaming is just what you accuse others of doing...”
Stevie
You're getting way off topic - nobody claimed that Thatcher ended Apartheid.
You brought that up as a snide comment, and now you carry it on to deflect from the original subject.
Thatcher did the correct thing by sinking the Belgrano.
- Argentina attacked a civilian community without declaring war.
- Argentina refused to withdraw at UK request and later in defiance of a binding UN resolution.
- The Belgrano was not in fact 'heading for port' or 'retreating from the submarine' . It did not know the sub was there and it was leading one hslf of a naval task force to intercept the British.
- it was a fully armed military target
Troy
Apr 08th, 2013 - 05:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, but you mentioned her ending the cold war and the Argentine dictatorship, which is just as stupid...
Why not add some more stupidity to her CV, now while we are at it?
72 Stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We don't need to add any stupidity to our posts, you are quite capable of doing that yourself as you have shown many times.
You are nothing more than the pathetic troll you show yourself to be, no facts but plenty of pure innuendo.
Raul - you taslk such utter illinformed childish crap! Your own Naval High Command in 1983 stated very publicly that the Belgran was a LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGET - can you understand those 3 words?
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0She was attacked where and when for simple military reasons NOTHING to do with politics.
1 - She was part of a planned 2 fleet pincer attack on the Brtish Carrier Fleet.
2- The British knew this and knew where she was - they did not know where your northern fleet and your aircraft carrier were.
3 The attack was immenent- merely waiting for sufficient wind for your carrier to launch her fighter-bombers.
4The Belgrano was on a holding pattern - steaming around a triangle(every few minutes she changed course and her bows would point in a different direction) whilst awaiting orders to attack - plan was for her to sail in and attack with her guns- that outranged the British guns - in the melee after the air attacks on the carriers.
5 - The Belgrano group was near to shallow waters where the Submarine would not be able to follow her.
6 - The only military option that made sense - as was accepted by your Navy High Command afterwards - was for the British to attack and sink the one arm of the attack that they could.
Had they not done so - The day could have ended with one or both British carriers sunk and several thousand British dead! And then your Junta would have had a free hand in exterminating the 1850 of us Islanders.
These are simple proven facts - if you wish to dispute them then take thm up with naval historians from both sides.
72...Not much mileage in trolling today boys, this is dominating the world media like CFK would dream of, good or bad the world is paying respect. but I can understand trolls getting stabby as she did stand up to the evil junta and through this the Rgs remain humiliated to this day, some tomato sauce for your chip on ya shoulder... Why not try trolling on a bigger news website
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Leiard
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm fighting fire with fire here, surely you don't expect me to offer a serious reply to the cacaphony of idiocy that is being presented. “Thatcher ended the Cold War” :) :) :)
76... Hold onto the Cold War thread Stevie is a keeper, don't discuss anything else just keep posting your thoughts on one sentence, it will make you look smart and cool, which Iam sure you are, although you hide it well :) Cold War Cold War Cold War jajajaja etc etc
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“No, but you mentioned her ending the cold war and the Argentine dictatorship, which is just as stupid...
Why not add some more stupidity to her CV, now while we are at it?”
Stevie
I'm sure it was not intentional, but by simple Cause &Effect, she did, indirectly.
C'mon, lighten up - they are only being facetious when they say , “ you can thank Maggie Thatcher that Argentina was returned to Democracy”.
If Thatcher did not have the resolve to engage Argentine Forces, Galtieri would have got away with his invasion, and the events later, by Argentinians, probably would not have happened.
They are telling you to be thankful, rather than discredit her.
Troy
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You know how many Argentines that gave their lives to get rid of the junta? You know how many that gave up their country?
The idea that Thatcher freed the Argentines from the junta is outrageous, and a spit in the face on those who fought for so long, gave up so much in order to get rid of those murderous bastards.
Those men and women freed Argentina from the junta, and Thatcher had nothing at all to do with it, directly or indirectly.
What a load of tosh! If Galtieri had won, his crimes would have conveniently been forgotten, he would have been a national hero and that's a fact.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 080
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So now your “would have been” is a fact all of the sudden...
@79
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'am afraid you are incorrect about that Stevie, with the invasion of the islands the entire bulk of Argentines who had protested the regime had jumped on the band wagon. One day before the invasion, trade unions had been protesting in the main square of BA only to be followed by hundreds of thousands of cheering supporters of Galtieri the next day. The war was a god send for regime and they knew that it had bought them at east another 5-10 years in power. The war united the population with a common purpose but when defeat was announced the people of Argentina came crashing down on the gvnt and all the crimes and injustices were brought up on a much larger scale, hastening its downfall.
Fact: Margaret Thatcher and Britain are responsible for having brought the Junta down much earlier then would have been. The people of Argentina owe her a debt of gratitude.
79 Thatcher helped Argentina rid itself of the Junta. If they had succeeded in the Falklands they would have turned on Chile. Fact.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 079 Stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Again you show your true troll like nature.
We have all seen pictures of the countless numbers that supported the Junta in the invasion, the auctions that were held for Argentinian supporters to sell their gold and jewellery to help support the Junta.
This support ended when the Argentinian army was defeated and sent home - the Junta toppled as a consequence to this defeat.
84
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now you are saying that the Argentine population supported the junta. You sure it was a junta at all? Maybe they were voted into power?
No population supports a military junta. You always find scumbags doing so in return of privilegies, but not the majority. Otherwise there would be no need for a junta.
You are trying to rewrite history based on a photography showing a packed plaza de whatever celebrating Galtieri.
You have no idea what a military dictatorship is, that much I can assure you.
@79stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The idea that Thatcher freed the Argentines from the junta is outrageous, and a spit in the face on those who fought for so long, gave up so much in order to get rid of those murderous bastards.”
Get off your high horse, Stevie. Stop masquerading as a humanitarian who gives a shit. Remember how “hilarious ” you thought it was when 51 people died and Macri was in trouble?
The Junta made a grave error invading the Falklands - Thatcher sent a task force to liberate them.
Argentina surrendered.
The cheering crowds of millions of people, turned suddenly angry, again.
It was the excuse needed to oust him.
It may still have happened, but Do you really think it would have been as easy if Galtieri was a “hero of Argentina” and enjoyed huge popular support?
UK is not claiming credit for his ouster, and they are not discrediting those who fought to remove him.
@85
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It doesn't matter if they supported the Junta initially or not. When the War came the vast bulk of the Argentine people supported the war and the regime. Read my comment @82 to understand better. He wasn't rewriting history, nut merely pointing out the countries obvious support when millions of Rgies cheered on the war and the regime's actions. The only person trying to re-write history is you by denouncing Britain's/Thatchers role in toppling the Junta, which is widely excepted by historians and scholars everywhere. What makes your opinion better than the views of the many who know of Maggies role in bringing down the Junta?
I thought it was hilarious that 51 people died?
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not at all, I thought it was hilarious Macri was paying the price for refusing to end his vacation to deal with the catastrophy.
Another thing that I also mentioned as hilarious was the very idea of you lot scoring cheap points on Argentines dead ones.
Don't put words in my mouth.
85 Stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I presume all your assertions are based on first hand knowledge then!
“You have no idea what a military dictatorship is, that much I can assure you”
She was a inspiration figure and a person willing to break through boundaries when needed.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0She also demonstrated British courage and spirit when it was called upon.
RIP Maggie
It is amazing to see that Raul believes that Mrs Thatcher was guilty of genocide when recovering the Falklands from the illegal Argentine invasion.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 06:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What he should realise is that the skill wasn't in causing the death of 655 Argentines but in stopping the deaths of 10,000s of Argentines.
Had Argentine invaded the sovereign territory of France, Russia, US, China the reprisals would have been catastrophic for them, and certainly today no Argentine government would dare mention the “cause”.
Britains reprisal was the bare minimum to recover the islands and return them to their rightful owners, sadly that price was 900 lives.
Had Mrs Thatcher wanted Gencide of Argentinians, we could have achieved that end, and recovered the Islands, and not lost 255 British servicemen. The cost would have been tens if not hundreds of thousands of Argentine lives.
The reasons we didn't do that...is actually because of the reasons Stevie lists...the Argentine public are not to blame for the Junta, they are not to blame for Peronism, they are not to blame for Kirchnerism, they are not to blame for the genocide in Patagonia, they are not to blame for economic defaults, they are not to blame anything....because the vast majority are so utterly stupid as Raul proves, you couldn't hold them responsible for taking themselves to the toilet without shitting themselves.
Punishing them for their idiocy would be like punishing a rat for being a rat. All we can show is pity.
89
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Indeed you can
@50 Steveu, agree with just about every thing you have said here.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0She was no saint, people hardly ever mention that in the 2 years prior to April 82 Thatcher almost sold the Islanders down the river, she sent Nicholas Ridley to the islands twice to discuss with them giving greater control and probably eventual sovereignty to Argentina, obviously he was not given a good reception by the Islanders and luckily she was held back somewhat by the right wing of her party, so months past, wrong signals given to the Junta and events eventually overtook her in April 82. Thus giving her the opportunity to recover her standing with the then UK public and the mandate to push through her policies but as you say the Poll tax was a bridge to far. She will always be remembered for the falklands conflict if nothing else.
LEPrecon @32 I think you will find that war was never declared by either side You can invade a country without actually declaring war, as We and the USA did in Irak, these “ conflicts ” are not subject to any internationally agreed articles of war hence so called “ conflicts ” produce contraversy
OBVIOUS REACTIONS AND PENDENT DEBATES.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It was expectable that the government from the islands was going express it felt sorry for margaret thatcher's death. I just hope that beyond diplomacy, the members of the government from the islands, and most people in the islands and in britian, remember that the same woman who decided to send the task force in 1982 in order to recover the islands, was the same woman who had sent nicholas readley to the islands in 1980, in order to find a negotiated solution with the junta for this conflict.
I hope you all remember also that before 1982, the islanders were considered like second class citizens, and remember about the warns that thatcher ignored in 1980 when she decided to cut off the budget of the defence for the south atlantic.
Beyond i have always thought thatcher actions during 1982 were as despisable and repudiable as galtieri's, and beyond i have never agreeded on her policies, i can't omit that she was re elected twice in the u. k., so it's obvious that in a historic moment most british people agreeded on her policies, that's why, i would like to ask many of the people who often publish their coments here, who most them are pro thatcherist and pro financial sitem, how do you think she'll be remembered by the different social sectors in the u. k.?, what is her legacy?, the lives of which social sectors did her polices improve in the u. k.?, which social sectors in the u. k. feel sad for her death now?.
I think it's interesting to debate about all these issues.
These morons even mentioning BMT name in the same sentence as the murdering war mongrels that were/are Argentina are really not worth responding to. Illiterate brain washed idiots. Argentina started the war by invading the islands whatever happened after that is entirely the fault of Argentinas aggression and failure to abide by the United Nations Security Council Resolution 502. All casualties and deaths are firmly at the feet of the scoundrel Argies.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@89leiard
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0““You have no idea what a military dictatorship is, that much I can assure you””
@92 Stevie
“89
Indeed you can”
Stevie
“Can” what??
Please tell us, does that mean you have “not been a part of a Dictatorship” or you “don't know anything regarding how they function”??
[HMS Elizabeth]
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Turbines generate excitement
The process of building the Navy’s new aircraft carriers has reached a key stage with the installation of the mighty gas turbines
http://profeng.com/features/turbines-generate-excitement
interesting,
and right we thinks.
.
Axel, British people are polarised. Working people generally hate her because she diminished union power and presided over the death of much manufacturing industry. Wealthier people loved her for bringing Britain back from the brink of serious decline caused by out of control unions and inefficient industry and public services. Almost everyone respected her for her leadership in the Falklands war.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0She started the 'me' society where people only think of themselves. Now we have only 11% manufacturing versus Germanys 19%. We now have a huge financial services sector when it was derugulated, but lack of regulation caused the current finacial problems. She changed Britain, she saved a good part of it but damaged a good part of it.
Personally I think our manufacturing decline is mostly due to low wages in Asia, what has happened was inevitable and that a lot of hatred of her is class based and nothing to do with what she did.
She was said to go to bed dreading ships being sunk. When the war in the Falklands ended she said she was glad for the mothers on both sides.
@ 15 Raul - as usual ill informed.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Besides all remember the genocide committed by the cruiser General Belgrano.”
Did the ARA Belgrano commit genocide?
The ARA Belgrano was sunk, it was not killing the indigenous population although that seems to be an Argentine passtime.
Not only was the sinking of the ARA Belgrano was sunk in no way a genocide - a ridiculous postulate - they were soldiers killed in a war started by Argentine.
“Una opinión que el propio comandante del buque aquel 2 de mayo de 1982, el capitán de navío Héctor Bonzo
”No me gusta cuando se habla del Belgrano como un crimen de guerra. Si yo hubiese avistado un barco inglés en el momento del repliegue no tenga duda alguna de que hubiésemos atacado. No éramos un blanco inofensivo. El Belgrano tenía 15 cañones de 152 mm, estaba equipado con misiles Exocet.“
”The opinion of the commander of the ship on May 2, 1982, Argentine navy captain Hector Bonzo
I do not like when they talk about the Belgrano as a war crime. If I had sighted a withdrawing British ship I have no doubt that we had attacked it. We were not harmlessly peaceful. The Belgrano had 15 152 mm cannons and was equipped with Exocet missiles”.
they are , were , and still are,
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0brainwashed.
People rarely recieve this level of adulation for merely recovering something that they never should have lost in the first place.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@93 It could be argued that Ridley's visit to the island was in the spirit of UN (non binding) resolution 2065
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Unfortunately, Argentina decided to force the issue and the result is that pragmatism has given way to dogged determination and ensured that no UK PM can ever try and sell the islanders down the river ever again.
Every time CFK pulls a stunt, the clock gets reset to zero.
Axel
Apr 08th, 2013 - 07:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Neville chamberlain met with Hitler in 1938 to discuss a diplomatic solution to avoid war called the Munich Agreement.
By your suggestion and following your logic, do you feel that Churchills actions between 1940-45 are therefore “just as bad as Hitlers” because Britain happened to retaliate when faced with military agression.
You don't wish to take responsibility for your actions in 1982, well so be it, shame on you. It's a shame, because your comment drags you down to the troll gutter level.
@70
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No-one said anything about Citrus fruits, but Margaret Thatcher was one of the team members that came up with the emulsifiers that enable easy production of soft ice cream from a spigot.
The Americans came up with soft serve ice cream (ice cream that is whipped to be pumped into a ice cream cone) back in the 1930s, but it was Lyons, a British company, which employed Margaret Thatcher as a research chemist, in her first career (she had 3, chemist, barrister, politician) and they worked on a cheap solution that produced excellent results, reducing the cost of soft serve ice cream and making it tremendously popular.
Every time you lick a soft serve ice cream, you are eating something made using the formulas devised by Margaret Thatcher - unless of course you are in Italy or the USA and eating Gelatto.
104
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So, to sum it up, la vieja ended the Cold War, the Argentine dictatorship, apartheid and invented citrus fruits ans soft ice.
What a Briton :)
Sinking the Belgrano practically ended the war there and then. The rest of the Rg fleet scuttled back to Rgland wetting their pants, the airforce were still active lobbing bombs that mostly didn't go off and a few brave Argies well dug in fought back. The rest couldn't wait to surrender.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The sinking probably saved many lives in the long run. Sad for those sailors and their families. War is not a picnic...
@105
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Compared with any Argentine ever??
Nope..can't think of a single solitary significant positive thing that any Argentine has ever done.
Any invention, development, innovation,
Any involvement in progressing peace, global impact, significant contribution...
Not a thing, from the 8th largest country and 40million people...not a single solitary positive thing....
Ho hum...yes, I think it's fair to say that Margaret Thatcher alone is greater than the sum total of all Argentines in history put together....but then, that's not saying much.
Hilarious ...
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x-4FJcnX0i8
107
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Uruguay liberated Europe from the Germans.
At least as much as la vieja Thatcher liberated Argentina from the dictatorship...
Margaret Hilda Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher, LG, OM, PC, FRS. Cast in the mould of Winston Spencer Churchill. Difficult decisions in difficult times. Sending young men to fight, shed their blood and, possibly, die. For what was right. In 1939, Churchill sent young men, tens of thousands, to fight the fascist, nazi devil's spawn. In 1982, Thatcher sent young men, ten thousand, to fight the fascist, nazi devil's spawn. No real difference so far. But then Churchill continued to destroy nazi Germany. To grind it into the cesspit where it belonged. Thatcher was more merciful. She should have authorised the nuking of argieland. And sent the unequivocal message. “No prisoners”. Did argies, or their supporters, deserve any more? An unprovoked attack against a peaceful British territory. War crimes. 40 million war criminals.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@15 I do sincerely hope you meet your JUSTICE soon.
@20 The MORAL of the story is: KILL argie animals.
@30 And, I insist on ramming a bayonet up your arse. Followed by the rest of the rifle. And then firing it.
@34 Aaaah, Chavez and Cristina. Two totally unimportant pieces of shit. Sorry, shouldn't have insulted shit.
@39 She was judged by her country. The shit she stamped on doesn't count. They aren't even “people”. Not even today.
@70 Then we'll have to change your “chuckle” into a rattle in your throat, won't we?
@79 Who cares? Just latino peasant slugs. 10 million latino slugs aren't worth one British serviceman.
@89 Ever fancied an enhanced jet enema? Cutting edge, you know. Surprising that a so-called “Uruguayan” should be so pro-argie. Right from the start, who wanted to “own” Uruguay? Who helped it be “free” of argieland and Brazil? Who helped it become a nation? Of course, there's always a Uruguayan traitor. Or an argie “plant”. Or just a piece of useless, juvenile shit.
@94 I hope you remember that you're a total, useless prat.
Margaret Thatcher. Destroyer of argieland. A truly great lady. Requiscat in pace. (And make argies burn.)
@105stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“So, to sum it up, la vieja ended the Cold War, the Argentine dictatorship, apartheid and invented citrus fruits ans soft ice.”
Stevie
That's YOUR summation of Thatcher.
In fairness, you have stated that you are supportive of and approve of, CFK and her government.
Please tell us YOUR summation of her accomplishments and skills in life, as well as a politician.
This is wide open, you have a forum for free speech here.
I should caution you that if you list one of her attributes as “has real nice hair”, there are people on here who may dismiss you as another persona of BK (British Kirchnerist) and not take you seriously.
Axel- 103 summed it up I think - So the Junta was wrong to invade in 1982 - you are correct!
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please tell then WHY was it wrong for Mrs T to throw them out after it became clear they were not going to withdraw despite the UN Binding Security Council resolution 502?
Incidentally 502 is and to date has been the ONLY UN Resolution on the Islands that required both or one side to act.
Within UK - well that is best left to the people of the UK to decide. She had good points - and made a few mistakes like all of us.
She will be remembered though as a WORLD Leader - more than any Arg President ever has been or will be!
Pre 1982 - Yes correct - she and previous UK Govts were following up 2065 and trying to see if a solution could be found that was acceptable to both- ie Islands and Argentina. Not since 1968 had there ever been any consideration by UK of giving/forcing us to accept Arg control. A bit of gentle “nudging” I agree - but that is politics.
But when Argentina turned to Armed Force - your country got what it well and truly deserved.
And as a result you should thank her - because she played a huge part in getting rid of your Junta and allowing Democracy to return to your country.
selfish SOB!! Only thinking about yourselves, and what useful or not for yourselves...
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0forever remembered for liberating the islands....
Thatcher is that but definitely much more than that!!!
Stop looking at your navels SOB and look at her legacy throughout GB!!! Look at the working class in GB and what happened to them and stop thinking about your selfish selves only
112
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“because she played a huge part in getting rid of your Junta and allowing Democracy to return to your country.”
As much part as Uruguay played in liberating Europe from the Germans by declaring them war in frbruary 1945.
You've fought them for six years, but when Uruguay got involved, morally at least, the Germans lasted merely a couple of months.
Beware the might of our (moral) troops!
This is so surreal, anything is true here!!!
@stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“This is so surreal, anything is true here!!!”
Ok, Stevie,
This is what we believe from the events we have witnessed, from what your neighbour Chile says ( and they must be very much in touch with your politics), and this is the way it is recorded.
I can sense your frustration, but unless you have some information to the contrary, you are no more than a jealous hateful troll calling us names.
What is the story 'behind the story'?
Or don't you know?
@113 Not sure what she really did for the UK working classes
Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0She created a property owning nation, this is true, but Lawson created a boom with the double MIRAS tax relief loophole in 1989 and this meant that many people bought at the height of prices and there were many repossessions in the recession of the early 'nineties
Similar story on share ownership
Then we had cases of gerrymandering with the sale of council houses - the Lady Porter incident springs to mind
There was also some bad cases of police corruption - West Midland Serious Crime Squad and, now, Hillsborough were both on her government's watch
Manufacturing was decimated in favour of financial services - to be fair, maybe we weren't making what people needed
In short, the aspiring working class was given a pat on the head but I don't thing it was as radical as some people claimed.
In short, she was a great politician on the international stage but the jury is out for me on her domestic track record.
Troy
Apr 08th, 2013 - 09:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The story behind what story?
About Thatcher liberating Argentina?
That story is simple, it didn't happen.
The junta was losing ground when the invasion happened. Had the invasion never happened, the junta would've been gone anyway. Now it did happen, and the junta lost grip shortly after.
Those 30000-some dead men and women liberated Argentina. All those who fought every day to make it happen. Those who sacrified life and country to achieve it.
@117
Apr 08th, 2013 - 09:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0None of us have ever said that the Junta would never have go away if it weren't for Maggie. What we have said is that her actions put the final nail in the coffin of the government. Yes the nail would have come eventually but not in 18982/3 but much later as with the other military dictatorships in SA. You have lost the argument so stop putting words in our mouths.
118
Apr 08th, 2013 - 09:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The invasion gave the junta a lifeline. If it hadn't been for the invasion, the junta would've been gone a bit earlier than it did.
So, “the final nail” was already there, the junta merely borrowed some time.
Nothing at all to do with la vieja Thatcher.
Stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You can't seem to make up your mind what it is you are arguing.
You seem to be making the case that if there had been no invasion, the Argentine people would have got rid of the Junta anyway.
Supposing that is true, then you are either directly admitting that the Argentinian people supported the Juntas invasion thereby prolonging their rule, or that irrespective of the outcome the invasion the Junta would have been ousted.
As I am sure you are not suggesting for a second that the brave and noble Argentinian people supported the invasion (heaven forbid) what you then must be suggesting is that irrespective of the invasion or it's success/failure, Galtiieri would have resigned in June 1982 and democracy restored.
It is just coincidence that it happened immediately at the end of a war, he started and lost.
Seems a remarkable coincidence.
The brave 30,000 Argentine freedom fighters fought against the evil Junta for near on a decade, and it just so happens that they get their breakthrough the very week that said Junta surrender in a war that they started...but it has absolutely nothing to do with the war or it's result.
Crikey.....
@119
Apr 08th, 2013 - 09:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You keep saying this but it doesn't make any sense. Thatcher and the British should be praised for bringing a quick and swift end to the Junta in 1982 and not in the late 80's and 90's like other latam governments. You cant accept that Thatcher brought this junta down 5+ years earlier then it might have been. You need to accept this.
“Nothing at all to do with la vieja Thatcher.” As I have just said the British defeated the junta and watched it swiftly crumble within two weeks of defeat in the Falklands. Without us and Maggie the Junta would have gone on killing thousands as it already was doing.
Oh btw were are you from Stevie?
Conor
Apr 08th, 2013 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stevie seems to have strayed from the “party line” @119.
He seems to admit that the invasion “gave the Junta a lifeline”, that sounds like the brave and true Argentinian people already “had the final nail in the coffin of the Junta” but thought “nah...we like this invasion malarkey, let's not quite put the nail in yet and see how it goes”
How interesting, very different from the “new Argentine history” that nobody supported the invasion and it was all done completely against the will of the people who were under the jackboot of the Junta...and no Argentine can be held responsible.
Interesting indeed.
120
Apr 08th, 2013 - 09:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The invasion came as an attempt to unite the people in a common cause, as most Argentines sees the islands as rightfully theirs.
This happened BECAUSE they were losing control, and it surely didn't help them. Ask the Argentines if the islands are theirs, then ask them if they agree with the invasion 1982. Finally ask them if they agreed with the junta.
First question will get you a yes. Third will give you a no. Second one will give you a headache.
@123
Apr 08th, 2013 - 10:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stevie you can't have it both ways, it's either one or the other.
1) Argentinian people had the power to get rid of the Junta in April 1982 but chose not to thereby directly and unashamedly supporting the invasion. It would then be Argentinias responsibility not the Junta. This is directly contradictory to the claptrap coming from CFK and HT.
2) Argentinian people did not have the power to get rid of the Junta and only gained that power as a direct consequence of the Junta losing the war. If the power was a direct consequence of losing the war, then it is directly a consequence of the actions of the UK military and Margaret Thatcher.
I am happy with either version of history. Argentina either has to accept as a nation it is responsible for the war because it could have stopped the Junta and didn't, or it has to accept that Britian was directly responsible for freeing them from the Junta and returning them to democracy.
Hobsons choice...your pick.
124
Apr 08th, 2013 - 10:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Getting rid of a military junta isn't something you do by pressing a button, mate.
It is something you sacrifice your life for.
The Argentines who fought against the junta didn't stop doing so just because Galtieri invaded the islands, as little as the population stood behind him all of the sudden for doing so.
It was a process that would've have had the same outcome, regardless of the invasion. The junta tried to buy itself time, and failed doing so.
This doesn't mean they would've managed to do that, had the invasion been successful. That is pure speculation.
Galtieri resigned THE SAME WEEK that the surrender on the islands, and your premise is that the two are completely unrelated....a small coincidence wouldn't you say.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You can't have it both ways....
@119 you say that the final nail in the coffin was already in place before the invasion. I am happy with that, it means that Argentina supported the invasion.
Now you say, that the invasion is irrelevant...it was always going to be June...it's just a coincidence the war ended the same week...next youll be telling me that had the Junta won...thenew democratic Argentina in June 1982 would have opened up “negotiations” in line with UN resolutions...
If you can't see that you are full of it...then your blind.
Take your pick...Hobsons choice.
Either Argentina supported the war, as they could've removed the Junta but didn't...or the war sped up the Juntas removal, thereby making MT and Britain directly responsible.
The military junta in Argentina ended in December 1983, more than a year after the war.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So no, no coincidence and nothing to do with la vieja.
Oh dear Stevie...
Apr 08th, 2013 - 10:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So the final nail was in the coffin in April 1982 but the Junta wasn't finally removed until December 1983. Fuck me...took a long time to get that nail in...oh and while you were banging that final nail in...Argentina (or the Junta) lost a war, which resulted in the resignation of the president and all three joint chiefs of staff creating a power vacuum that had nothing to do with the subsequent weakening of the government,....
Serious studies of the Falkland Islands conflict Argentinas say the General Belgrano Cruise was sunk on May 2, 1982 to save the government of this woman. And that because what really happened was that the destroyer Sheffield was mortally wounded the same May 1, 1982 attacked by aircraft of the squadron Dagger “torno” near Puerto Argentino (and not the Argentina Navy aircraft) .
Apr 08th, 2013 - 10:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Consequently, urged achieve a similar victory over Argentina fleet and the was the cause why the Belgrano was attacked “in the back” when he was about to leave the exclusion zone “decreed” by themselves violating their own rules.
The sinking of Sheffiled in the first and rejected landing attempt on May 1 would cause the wobble of the Thatcher government if it failed a similar victory.
A war crime of the “Liberating” Maggie.
@116 Steveu lol good post but you forgot Mad Cow Disease it was her government who de regulated the animal feeds stuff industry to speed up production resulting in less control and the appearence of Mad Cow lol
Apr 08th, 2013 - 10:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Agree the jury is out on her domestic record but she was great for the UK on the international stage
So, to quickly summarise this thread: a couple, well, mostly just one, pro-Argentinian is telling all the Brits and the Rest Of The World, how they feel about maggie Thatcher... regardless of their age, standings, relationship or experience toward her, extant or otherwise.
Apr 08th, 2013 - 10:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And, in frankly amazing-even-by-Malvonista-standards, claim has now surfaced that Maggie STARTED the 1982 Falklands conflict ON PURPOSE!
Not only that but the Argentine Junta and all the Argentine people were not only against the war but are totally innocent of even being involved in it!
..because Stevie & Raul say so...
and they should now...
especially Stevie as he has some personal (as yet unclarified) experience of being a Military Dictator...which means he is an expert on them!
(You cant make this stuff up!)
@129 JM
Apr 08th, 2013 - 10:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please refer to an earlier post on this thread where the Belgrano captain admitted that the ship was actively involved in a pincer movement to lure the British Fleet
Regrettable that any loss of life is, I can't see how the UK action could be construed as a war crime in any shape or form.
Jose
Apr 08th, 2013 - 10:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Serious studies of the Falklands conflict show that the vast majority of Argentines fully supported the campaign and saw it as an issue of national pride.
Serious studies show that the Argentine conscripts were virtually deserted by their cowardly commanders, we're under prepared, under trained and poorly equipped.
Serious studies showed that these conscripts were shown more mercy by their British captors than by their own officers.
Serious studies show that the abritish had more respect for the Argentine war dead than Argentina.
Serious studies show that Argentina planted land mines which are still a danger to civilians, defecated on private property and terrorised civilians.
Serious studies have shown that even the Captain of the Belgrano considered it a legitimate target and it was manoeuvring to attack.
Serious studies have shown that on defeat, the Argentines could blame themselves so fabricated this Junta crap, so they didn't have to take responsibility. An old trick they recycled when blaming the Spanish for the genocide of Amerindians.
Serious studies have shown that Argentina is a bit shit, and you and Raul are a couple of twats.
128
Apr 08th, 2013 - 10:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You still think one removes a military junta by pressing a button don't you?
Videla 1976 - 1981
Viola March 81 - Dec 81
Lacoste Dec 81 - Dec 81
Galtieri Dec 81 - June 82
Saint Jean June 82 - July 82
Bignone July 82 - Dec 83
Many de facto Presidents came and went, still nothing to do with la vieja Thatcher.
@134
Apr 08th, 2013 - 11:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Pressing a button is by far the most effective way of getting rid of military Juntas. Many many have been got rid of in this way...including the one led by Galtieri.
“”“Serious studies have shown that Argentina is a bit shit, and you and Raul are a couple of twats.”“””
Apr 08th, 2013 - 11:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0ROFLMAO
seriously - laughing my tits off! :-0
135
Apr 08th, 2013 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You intimidating keyboard warrior you :)
What do you do after getting rid of a military junta? You turn off the console?
Cheers for the laugh :)
137
Apr 08th, 2013 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Fortunately Britain has never really had a military Junta...not for millennia anyway...but we've certainly got rid of one or two.
You might make an argument that we assisted in getting rid of the Iraqi junta and replacing it with a democratically elected government, or maybe the afghan junta...each of these was done by pressing quite a few missile launch buttons.
The laugh you've had should be at yourself...you still haven't made Hobsons choice....because you can't...but one or the other must be true...LOL.
Jose- you have not got a clue have you?
Apr 08th, 2013 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your own Naval Archives show that the Belgrano WAS on a mission(at was sailing around 3 sides of a triangle, in position, awaiting orders to attack) when it was torpedoed and it WAS a legitimate Target - Your own Naval Commanders have said so IN PUBLIC.
And you cannot even get your Dates correct for May 1982 - Go and read a book!
134 - After having to announce their surrender and defeat on June 14th
to a national public that they had lied to and was thinking they were winning - the ,ilitary Junta were finished - you know it - all the last General did was hold the job during preperations for the obvious - elections!
Sorry but simple historical fact is that Maggie caused their downfall - and the return of Democracy was hastened a lot by her actions.
Argentines hate facts dont they! But they love fantasy!
@125stevie
Apr 08th, 2013 - 11:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“It was a process that would've have had the same outcome, regardless of the invasion. The junta tried to buy itself time, and failed doing so.
This doesn't mean they would've managed to do that, had the invasion been successful. That is pure speculation.”
True, the Junta did try to buy time by invading, and they would have done, if the invasion had been successful.
And the invasion was successful - a Fait Accompli, much cheering and back-slapping, and National fervour !!
And they were prepared to go on - Chile next!!!
The Perons' dream realised!! Heros of Argentina!!
Everything the people were taught in school was delivered by the Junta. The Junta delivered the destiny oromised for 40 years by the great architect of the modern Argentinian State.
Speculation only, on your part, that they would be ousted by 1983!
Anyway, 2 weeks later, with full resolve and no delay, Thatcher's task force arrived and put an end to all that.
Galtieri knew he would be cooked if the people found out they were losing and he rode high on that wave - until it was over, and they found out.
Would that have happened if Thatcher had followed advice to turn around and forget the Fslklands?
Not likely.
Stevie
You speak of no events, incidents, tactics, to suggest a revolt was imminent. Brave stolid resistance perhaps, but that could have taken years...
@140
Apr 08th, 2013 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Brave stolid resistance...yep that's 99.9% of the Argentines...it was just a handful of Junta...and they've all gone now...nasty business...
It's funny how these 0.1% ers take charge isn't it?
Hitler had only the support of 0.1% of Germans
Saddam 0.1% of Iraqis
Napoleon just 0.1% of the French apparently.
Certainly every single Frenchman was in the resistance in WW2 just the same as every Argentine was fighting against the Junta.
It reminds me of a Shaggy song...
Chucking nuns from an aeroplane....wasn't me
Slaughtering Amerindians...wasn't me
Stealing Patagonia...wasn't me
Harbouring Nazis....wasn't me
Supporting the junta...wasn't me
Invading the Falkands...wasn't me
Lying, cheating, stealing....wasn't me....
LOL
@ 129 José Malvinero - who, as we are usued to - doesn't have the foggiest idea of what he is writing about.
Apr 09th, 2013 - 12:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0José blabbered: “A war crime of the ”Liberating“ Maggie” “
- although it has already been shown a number of times in this thread, that the captain of ARA Belgrano claims the opposite of José - but of course José knows better than the Argentine navy :-^
We'll take it one more time for José - not that he can be assumed to understand it:
”Una opinión que el propio comandante del buque aquel 2 de mayo de 1982, el capitán de navío Héctor Bonzo
No me gusta cuando se habla del Belgrano como un crimen de guerra. Si yo hubiese avistado un barco inglés en el momento del repliegue no tenga duda alguna de que hubiésemos atacado. No éramos un blanco inofensivo. El Belgrano tenía 15 cañones de 152 mm, estaba equipado con misiles Exocet.“
”The opinion of the commander of the ship on May 2, 1982, Argentine navy captain Hector Bonzo
I do not like when they talk about the Belgrano as a war crime. If I had sighted a withdrawing British ship I have no doubt that we had attacked it. We were not harmlessly peaceful. The Belgrano had 15 152 mm cannons and was equipped with Exocet missiles”.
www.lanacion.com.ar/702442-general-belgrano-crimen-o-acccion-de-combate
Argentina was humiliated in 1982 and it still hurts them today.
Apr 09th, 2013 - 12:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0How could a grocer's daughter from a small English market town in rural England defeat a military dictatorship ruling a country of 40 million people in South America? It hurts.
The humiliation. The H - U - M - I - L - A - T - I - O - N. It hurts.
ALL the world to see again, again and again on their televisions and newspapers right now!. It hurts.
This is on top of Cristina Fernadez de Kirchner being decribed as a “Hag” and her late husband as “boss-eyed” by their so called friend the President of Uruguay.
It really really hurts.
Good article, not all Brits are like the participants in this blog, it seems:
Apr 09th, 2013 - 01:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/12/falklands-vote-ruritanian-colonial-relic
Sorry she died, but now she is knowing the people she sent to the bottom of the Atlantic, now she is answering WHY to the killed in the Belgrano.
Apr 09th, 2013 - 01:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0I hope you can rest in peace some day...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2305760/Lefts-chorus-hatred-Champagne-streets-students-union-cheers-vile-internet-taunts.html
Apr 09th, 2013 - 04:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0Baroness Thatcher’s death unleashed a wave of vitriol and hatred from the Left.
The first of several planned ‘Thatcher death parties’ across the country began last night with more than 200 revellers gathering in Brixton, south London.
They danced the conga, drank champagne and chanted: ‘Maggie, Maggie, Maggie – Dead, Dead, Dead.’ LOL
look at the selfish islanders; look at them go....
Apr 09th, 2013 - 06:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Falklands will 'forever remember' Baroness...”
As if Thatcher's legacy was just that and only that (i.e. liberating the islands)!!
What a bunch of selfish, inward, and myopic bunch you are. Have you no heart for the British working class who lost jobs left and right thanks to her policies? Do you not feel or care for them? Yet you expect them to foot the bill (via taxpayers pound) to maintain the defense capabilities in and around the islands....
They will now see what a selfish bunch you are only caring for your selves, gazing at your navel, and not giving a damn about anyone else; even your British brethren...
65 million live here, 300 partied, wow I personally thought there would be more than that, surprised your not quoting your friend Galloway, early days yet!
Apr 09th, 2013 - 06:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Expect more, not everyone liked her, but she knew how to deal with you lot and that's one big tick in my book!
@148 reality check
Apr 09th, 2013 - 07:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0Dead right. Had the cabinet not agreed to send the taskforce, I reckon she'd have gone on her own and singlehandedly crushed the argentines like a modern day Boudica!
whatever mate but just in case anyone has forgotten, I can remind you.....
Apr 09th, 2013 - 08:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thatcher denounced Nelson Mandela and his ANC as “terrorists”, something even David Cameron ultimately admitted was wrong.
What kind of 'great' leader would have called Mandela a terrorist?
She was also best of pals with Pinochet! Get the picture? Well, there is more...
She was a steadfast friend to brutal tyrants such as Augusto Pinochet (as already mentioned before), Saddam Hussein and Indonesian dictator General Suharto (“One of our very best and most valuable friends”).
Had enough? well there is more....
She played a key role by using her influence to publicly advocate for the 2003 attack on Iraq, an illegitimate war by international law standards (unlike the first Gulf War).
Had enough? Still more....
What about her domestic political legacy of rampant inequality and greed, privatisation and social breakdown in GB?
Therefore, kindly spare me and condolence messages please. Moreover, people praising Thatcher's legacy should show some respect for her victims, which were many....
ROFLMAO
Apr 09th, 2013 - 08:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/paeodophile-ring-bombshell-as-mp-claims-1398369
Two of Britain's finest...OBE
I guess Maggie is way too old for Jimmy...
Helber , you are priceless !
Apr 09th, 2013 - 09:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0What about Cristina's domestic political legacy of rampant inequality and greed, privatisation and social breakdown in Argentina ?
Cristina presides over a country where Barrio Norte overlooks Villa31 , she grants monopolies to Cargill , Monsanto and Canadian mining companies and La Plata flooded because she “diverted ” the money set aside for flood defences in 2007 . Within minutes of the tragedy supermarkets were looted . Her party workers are beating up other relief workers so that she alone can claim the credit for relief work .
Maggie in 1982 was like Churchill in 1940, the person(man or woman) for the hour.
Apr 09th, 2013 - 10:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0She had faults, Churchill had faults. We all have faults.
But she never wavered & acted decisively in dispatching the task force to eject the illegal invaders of our land.
One can only be grateful.
@ 150 and one of Maggie's finest achievements and remembered around the world and still talked about is that ......
Apr 09th, 2013 - 10:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0She KNOCKED OUT Argentina!
WOW. Amazing. Incredible. Stupendous.
The humiliation. The H - U - M - I - L- I - A - T - I - O - N. It hurts.
It still hurts. Even the Chilean armed forces and football fans sing songs about it. God .. it must really hurt.
Isolde are you a crossdresser or is it that using girlie names turn you on?
Apr 09th, 2013 - 10:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 154
Apr 09th, 2013 - 10:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Italian from Europe”
Wow and I always thought Italians came from Asia. Nice one junior...
CAPTAIN SILVER. MONKEYMAGIC. ISLANDER1.
Apr 09th, 2013 - 02:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0CAPTAIN: What you say is very interesting. In fact if wealthy people love her, and the workers hate her, then it's evident which social sectors in britain were benefited with her policies
The u. k. is a great country which should have never abandoned it's huge industrial development, instead of giving relevancy to financial acticities. I think it's one the biggest remoras of thatcher-reagan alliance, and it's one the main causes of the actual deep crisis.
MONKEY: If thatcher was so concerned about finding a solution for this conflict, then i wonder why she ignored the warns in reference to the cuts off that her government had made for the budget of defence for the south atlantic.
ISLANDER: If thatcher was so interested in defending the islands from the argentine junta, she could have sent a huge permanent militar mission, in order to avoid the islanders to be victim of any of the terrible violations to human rights that the junta committed in the mainland to our people. However that decision didn't implicate a war.
The argentine militars were so ignorant and houghty that they thought that the u. k. would never go to a war for the islands, and thought that the u. k. would accept to find a negotiated solution, in fact, the militars were disposed to negotiate. However a negotiated solution wasn't convenient for thatcher's politic ambitions, and you and everybody else know it. The only one way to save her miserable and unpopular government was with a militar victory.
On the other hand, if i have to thank thatcher, because after the war we could recover the democracy, then i think that she must have been very thankful to galtieri, because thanks to his imbecility she could save her pathetic government.
Beside, if i follow your thought, then you all should be thankful to galtieri too, because after 1982, you stopped being considered like 2nd class citizens and got a british passport.
@57axel
Apr 09th, 2013 - 02:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So you are saying that Thatcher provoked Argentina to invade a civilian community, an action that would put her government at risk, 3,000 Islanders at risk, losing a British Possession at risk, and launched a major task force risking both of UKs carriers and thousands of men on a major military gamble against great odds?? All because she felt she was unpopular during her first democratic term in office.
Hardly sounds likely, does it??
@158... I take back what I said on another thread. Axel is not digging a hole. He has already gone straight through to China shot through the surface at warp speed. He will be the first man on Mars by lunchtime.
Apr 09th, 2013 - 03:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In the UK are celebrating his death.
Apr 09th, 2013 - 10:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Injured and arrested in street celebrations over the death of former British premier
http://www.clarin.com/mundo/Heridos-detenidos-celebraciones-callejeras-britanica_0_898110331.html
Recall that Margaret Thatcher supported and protected the genocidal Pinochet.
A couple of criminals.
Miguel song Piero Cantilo and truly portraying the criminal and genocidal Margaret Thatcher
LADY VIOLENCE AND CHILDREN
Lady violence firecrackers clouds
Words flamethrower and criminal reason
Architect built a fire of fear
Machete arrogant and pit scar.
Lady of the blows and curses
With hands gillette gun and sex
Lady violence where will the children of thy womb
Muscles resistant leather
Punishing enemies screaming and kicking
Someone who loves me, killing living.
Lady violence rages
Revolution and war, national pretext
For many people release their anxieties,
Your sleeping body and animal instinct.
Energetic lady wild fields
Patron of the jungles and brutal work
Lady of the men who grow up in the footprint
Deformed lady, crazy in the city.
Where are the children of your womb
With effervescent lead flakes
Mistreating animals and felled pine
Destroying forests, breaking the valleys,
Withering grass ranging treading.
@160raul
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry, Buddy - that's the CFK Song !!!
Prett crapy too, no John Lennon is he? Probably why no one ever heard of him outside of Der Mutterland.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 06:35 am - Link - Report abuse 015 Raul and 129 José Malvinero
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0Letters from readers
Sir,
“Mrs. Pierini framed the sinking of the cruiser General Belgrano as a war crime unpunished and unclaimed by our country.
”I have an obligation to make public my total disagreement. Was not a war crime, but a combat action, the 323 crew members who gave their lives were not murdered: died fighting for our country, which is the maximum that can make delivery military.
“The integrated naval force was deployed for an attack on the British fleet forming a coordinated operation with other naval groups, the course that had momentarily away from the enemy fleet, as commander Admiral should wait a moment considered most suitable. The Belgrano and the other ships were a threat and a danger to the British.
”Its location outside the exclusion zone meant not withdraw from the war. All commanders at sea had been the British media establishment that area. The message stated in its final part:“ The government of His Majesty reserves the right to attack any ship or aircraft, within or outside the exclusion zone, which it considers a threat to its forces. ”Leave the exclusion zone was not to leave the combat zone to enter a protected area.
“There was a violation of international law was an act of war and that was the position as head of the Navy in 1995 with presentations held in various courts.
”The internal political problems did not govern the conduct of those who fought. The Belgrano was sunk endowment aware of its risks.
“To think that were poorly killed and not killed in combat is to offend the memory they deserve who fought for us.”
Enrique Molina Pico
Admiral, former Chief of
General Staff of the Navy
CI 4293994
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/700676-cartas-de-lectores
Stevie,
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have stated on various comments that the Argentine population was against the Junta's invaion of the Falkland Islands, so I would like you to read what one of the most vociferous and heroic anti-Junta Argentines, Ernesto Sabato, had to say about the invasion:
“In Argentina it is not a military dictatorship that is fighting. It is the whole people, her women, her children, her old people, regardless of their political persuasion. Opponents to the regime like myself are fighting for our dignity, fighting to extricate the last vestiges of colonialism. Don't be mistaken, Europe, it is not a dictatorship that is fighting for the Malvinas; it is the whole nation.”
This letter was pblished in La Nación on 3rd or 4th April 1982, I think!!!!!
Surely it is time to put the Belgrano “war crime” myth to bed! It is time that political Argentina recognises the fact that the General Belgrano was sunk LEGITIMATELY in the course of an armed conflict instigated by Argentina and, apparently, supported by the bulk of the population.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Had the Falklands archipelago NOT been invaded by Argentina and if Argentina had withdrawn its troops when requested by the UN - no dead! no sunken Gneral Belgrano! And, furthermore, Mrs Thastcher would not have won the following election in the UK!
TROY TOMPEST. GFACE.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 03:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What i wanted to express in my comment 158 is that i have never believed that she was concerned about the wishes of the people from the islands, sorry, but i'm not so inocent.
If she really had cared about the will of the population from the islands, she would have never ignored the warns, in reference to the cuts off for the defence in the south atlantic, beside, she would have never sent nicholas readley in order to find a negotiated solution with a fascist regimen. She could have broken the relations with arg., with the purpose of avoiding any discusion related to sovereignty, untill argentina recovers the democracy.
I already said in my comment 158 how she could have protected the islands, instead of making a war, and i said also why a negotiated solution wasn't convenient for her government.
axel
Apr 11th, 2013 - 05:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0The idea that Michael Foot would have won the 1983 general election for labour is fantasy, he was a joke figure. What the FI victory did was add to the landslide victory for MT which was repeated again in 1987, and her party won again in 1992. So hardly all down to the Falklands.
Neither is it true that MT was hated by the poor and loved by the rich, there are huge swathes of “poor” constituencies that voted for MT in 1983 and 1987 that were never “conservative” before or since. So its another myth, that it was diversive puely across social divides. As is the myth that Labour and conservative voters today are purely split across social divides.
As far as the Falklands conflict is concerned, you continue to blather on about some “negotiated solution” as if there is a solution that is acceptable to both parties. There isn't.
Argentina want more than they have today, and whatever they got, they would take, claim it was theirs already and come back tomorrow for more. This “negotiated solution” means Britain/islanders would have less than today...so it hardly makes sense to them to agree.
Britain, is happy with the status quo, but if you want to negotiate “argentine style” where we should ask for something more than today, then here goes..
Argentine is against any “colonialist powers” controlling lands militarily seized in the 19th century. So,perhaps on behalf of the Amerindians we could request you return Patagonia to them. The Argentine Latinos “can stay” but will have no say in the governance of their homes, nor any of the mineral or fishing rights. They will also have free access to learn the new countries language...their “interests will be respected” but not their “wishes” LOL.
------------------------------------
So, she according to you sent Nick Ridley to the islands to find a negotiated solution (that she didnt want) and then when none was possible (due to the reasons given above) she welcomed the invasion to increase her parliamentary majority.
Simon
Apr 11th, 2013 - 10:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ernesto Sabata heroic?
What did he ever do to work against the junta?
Other than having intellectual dinners with Videla?
“Más recientemente Sábato apoyó activamente la dictadura del general Jorge Videla. El acto que fue más publico se trató de un almuerzo ocurrido el 19 de mayo de 1976 en la casa de gobierno tomada por asalto por Videla. Ese acontecimiento tuvo una cobertura mediática muy amplia y la intención que se supiera internacionalmente el apoyo de algunos intelectuales argentinos a una dictadura sangrienta.”
Translation
“In his later years, Sabata actively supported the dictatorship of Jorge Videla. The most public act was a dinner that happened May 19th 1976 in the governmental house taken by force by Videla. That event had a wide media coverage with the intention of letting the world know that some intellectuals did support the bloody dictatorship.”
Heroic you say? Your hero maybe...
@144 Seumas Milne is a useful idiot and his views in that article are contemptible. However, because Britain has a democratic political culture, in which we allow people to express such views, instead of throwing them out of helicopters.
Apr 11th, 2013 - 12:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0168 Stevie (#)
Apr 11th, 2013 - 02:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Apr 11th, 2013 - 10:58 am
If you want to believe the rubbish published as a personal opinion by Carlos Quintana, that is your choice, I prefer to remember the writings of Ernesto Sábato that I personally read during the dark years of the dictatorship!!!!!!!
Simon
Apr 11th, 2013 - 02:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Explain this photo
http://periodicotribuna.com.ar/aimages/201105/8829-ernesto-sabato-el-intelectual-del-oscurantismo-500x300.jpg
or this one
http://periodicotribuna.com.ar/aimages/201105/8829-ernesto-sabato-el-intelectual-del-oscurantismo-500x300.jpg
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, maybe?
Borrate :)
MONKEYMAGIC.
Apr 11th, 2013 - 06:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You insist with the same supid comparison, in reference to the stolen lands of the originary populations.
I have explained you in different moments that despite the genocide that our people suffered, and despite the serious abuses that some originary populations still suffer, mosty because of powerful masters who pretend to expeal them from their lands, in order to plant soya, the claims and the rights of the originary populations is included in our constitution, which is historic reparation, anyway, there is still a lot do for them.
However, the u. k. has never done any historic reparation for having deprived argentina from the islands, and furthermore, it rejects to resume the negotiations with our country like the u. n. solicit both nations.
In relation to margaret thatcher, if you read my commment 94 again, you'll see that despite i have never agreed on her polices, i can't omit that most british population agreded on her politic project, due to she was reelected twice and roled the country for 11 years, which is more than any other prime minister in britain.
I respect popular expressions, like the exercise of voting, but it doesn't mean that i have to agree on the ideas of the winer politician. When i see what she did along the 11 years of her government, i realise that it's evident that most her decisions benefited much more the rich people than the middle class.
In argentina we lived during the decade of the 90's, the same than what thatcher did in britain during the 80's, that's why i also know what i am talking about. I respect your opinion but i don't agree on most you said in your comment.
Axel
Apr 12th, 2013 - 02:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0Of course it is a ridiculous comparison, that is the point...and the point that you continue to miss.
In Patagonia, you murdered a population, you tried to commit genocide and to wipe them off the face of the planet. The few that are left, have lost their land to you “usurpers”. Your claim to have made reparations to them in your constitution is offensive and wrong. You've STOLEN and MASSACRED thousands of people and said “NOW we have what we want, stolen all your resources, control all the land, let's live in peace” and you think that is reparation??? BULLSHIT.
Then you gone on to talk about “reparation” due to Argentina.
I will remind you, that Argentine is DUE NO REPARATION. In 1833, nobody was harmed (as opposed to genocide that you caused in 1880s) and only 50 or so people were evicted. So, if anyone were due reparation it would be the 50 people.
So, let's look to see if they are:
1) some of them were murderers
2) some of them were rapists
3) some were deportees from Argentina
4) some were hired international militia
5) NONE OF THEM WERE CIVILIANS
6) NONE OF THEM WERE BORN ON THE ISLANDS
7) NONE OF THEM HAD BEEN ON THE ISLANDS FOR MORE THAN THREE MONTHS IN THEIR ENTIRE LIVES.
Sorry, axel, it doesn't sound like reparation is due to them.
As far as the UN is concerned, the only people who have broken UN resolutions is Argentina when they invaded in 1982. I don't accept this pathetic JUNTA crap. It was YOU axel, YOU cost the lives of 1000 people. how about some “reparation” for them. They all suffered far more harm than this mythical 50 in 1833. Thought not!!
----------------
Your comment that Thatcher was more for the rich than the middle class is ridiculously ignorant.
Britain never deprived 'Argentina' of the islands though, the historical claims were both Spanish and British with the Spanish claim being administered from Montevideo not Bullshit Aires. How Argentina believes that they have a 'claim' on the Islands is, quite frankly, beyond me.
Apr 12th, 2013 - 11:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Not surprising, #174. May I point out the following argentine governors of the islands, since your denial instinct prevents you from such a consideration:
Apr 14th, 2013 - 05:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 01820-1821: David Jewett
1821-1822: Guillermo Mason
1823-1828 : Commander Pablo Areguati
1829-1831: Luis Maria Vernet
1832-1832: Juan Esteban Francisco Mestivier
1833-1833: José María Pinedo
With regards to the death of Margaret Thatcher, I wish she could have lived longer, to face blindness, numbness and oblivion, and experiencing part of the sufferings she swiftly delivered to neighbours and aliens alike.
But facts are facts, so may you burn forever in Hell, together with all your followers!
Yaghan
Apr 14th, 2013 - 05:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Afraid not...
Jewitt only mentioned his “claim” to the UP Government after his return from the islands
Areguati (like all argentines) only managed 2 months on the islands (not the five years you gave him)...was never granted governor status, and half his motley crew had to be rescued by the British.
Vernet (god, not that old chestnut), not Argentine, never governor, deserted the islands in 1831, left a British Matthew Brisbane in charge.
Mestevier, on the islands a GRAND TOTAL OF ONE DAY, murdered by his own Argentine crew, his wife raped in front of their children.
Pinedo, only in charge of the militia, not governor, left at the request of Captain Onslow after 2 months.
So, indeed the facts are the fact...the islands are a British overseas territory, and will remain so long after all the British are in heaven, and the Argies are burning in hell (which is probably a darn sight better than the shithole they live in now).
#174
Apr 14th, 2013 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You appointed governors -so what ? That does not prove sovereignty, only wishful thinking.
The UK could appoint governors, in absentia, for Patagonia.
Would this prove sovereignty ?
@ 175 yaghan
Apr 14th, 2013 - 07:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 01820-1821: David Jewett
Tell us where in Jewett's 13 pages report to the Buenos Aires government it says that the took possession of the Falkland Islands.
1821-1822: Guillermo Mason
Tell us where we can find the appointment of Mason as a governor, either as a document or in the Buenos Ayres Gazette.
1823-1828 : Commander Pablo Areguati
18 December Vernet and Pacheco petition the Buenos Aires government to give Areguati a letter of Commander of the place without salary. The govenment did not appoint Areguati.
Tell us where we can find the appointment of Areguati as a governor, either as a document or in the Buenos Ayres Gazette.
1829-1831: Luis Maria Vernet
Tell us where we can find the appointment of Vernet as a governor, either as a document or in the Buenos Ayres Gazette.
1832-1832: Juan Esteban Francisco Mestivier
10 September 1832: Brevet Sergeant Major José Francisco Mestivier is promoted Political and Military Comandant of the Falkland Islands as a temporary substitute for Vernet in a decree issued by Buenos Ayres governor Rosas. ('Brevet' in the title means that even his rank as Sergeant Major was temporary).
Mestivier was on the falkland Islands 10 October to 30 November 1832 = 55 days before he was murdered by members of his mutinist garrison.
Tell us where we can find the appointment of Mestivier as a governor, either as a document or in the Buenos Ayres Gazette.
1833-1833: José María Pinedo
23 September 1832: Mestivier and Pinedo arrives in the Falkland Islands 7 October 1832.
5 january 1833: Pinedo leaves the Falkland Islands.
Pinedo was on the Falkland Islands for 91 days.
Tell us where we can find the appointment of Pinedo as a governor, either as a document or in the Buenos Ayres Gazette.
@ 175 yaghan and 178 St.John
Apr 14th, 2013 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Jewett (an citizen of USA) was never appointed governor. His assignment was as a privateer to hunt ships flying the Spanish flag, same with Mason who succeded Jewett as a privateer. Mason was on the islands for less than two months after Jewett left.
@175 yaghan,
Apr 14th, 2013 - 09:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0More proof of Argentine lies.
Read posts #176,177 & 178.
@155 yaghan,
l have occasionally worn men's clothes.
Especially when working on ship's engines.
What else would you like to know?
@ 175 yaghan
Apr 14th, 2013 - 10:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0More about 1823-1828 : Commander Pablo Areguati
2 February 1824. Pablo Areguati arrives for the first time on East Falkland with 25 gauchos.
12 February 1824. Areguati writes:
“Estamos sin carne, sin galleta, y sin polvora pa cazar. Nos mantenemos de conejos azados pues no hay graza à causa de no poder salir à carnear por qe no hay caballos. Con decirle à V qe estamos pereciendo, he concluido.” [1]
“We are without meat, without biscuits, and without gunpowder for hunting. We support ourselves on fried rabbits, since there is no fat [meat] since we cannot go out to slaughter because there are no horses. I have resolved to tell you that we are perishing ...”
7 June 1824. Areguati leaves East Falkland Island the ship 'Fenwick', returning to Buenos Aires. He leaves 8 of his gauchos behind.
24 July 1824. The remaining 8 gauchos are rescued from East Falkland by Susannah Anne, a British ship. [2]
Thus Areguati was not on the falkland Islands for more than 127 days = 4 months and 6 days, including the end date.
[1] Archivo General de la Nación (AGN), Buenos Aires, Sala VII 129. Doc 51.
[2] AGN, Sala VII legajo 127 Doc 33.
@181stjohn
Apr 15th, 2013 - 12:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0in summation - hardly a permanent, viable, thriving ,settlement.
Just a bunch of Spaniards clinging to the rocks...
@ 175 yaghan
Apr 15th, 2013 - 12:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0More about 1820-1821: David Jewett
Jewett arrived in the Falkland Islands on 27 October 1820 and left on an unspecified day of March 1821.
Thus Jewett stayed on the islands for at most 156 days (assuming he left as late as 31 March) = 5 months and 5 days including the end date.
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