MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Uruguayan forestry company buys turbines for a 90 MW wind farm
Denmark’s Vestas Wind Systems wind-turbine maker received a 90-megawatt turbine order from Compañia Forestal Uruguaya SA for the Pintado power plant in south centre Uruguay. The 30 3-megawatt turbines project will be serviced by the company for 15 years and the farm is expected to be operational by the second quarter of next year. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesGood for Vestas.
Jun 04th, 2013 - 08:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0The eolic plants in Florida and Artigas went to German Nordex.
Personally, I like the Dane technology more on the wind turbines than the German one, and I'm glad we chose to spread the investment.
This is great news for Uruguay. A diversified energy supply is a most pragmatic (and, might I say “conservative” in its former definition) approach to the future.
Jun 04th, 2013 - 10:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0A meme in the conservative blogisphere is that wind generators are not financial viable without government subsidies. Does anyone know if Compañia Forestal is getting a tax subsidy? It appears to be a business transaction by a forward looking company. But, I would like to hear the financial facts.
Help me out, Stevie.
Well, Wind turbines are not economically viable in themselves, at least if you don't have massive amount of Space and good Wind conditions, or put them off shore, which creates maintenance issues.
Jun 04th, 2013 - 11:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0But they are great suppliers of peak energy and everybody investing in them today, aren't doing it for economical reasons today, more so in the future.
Fossile energies will cost in the future, and a lot as well.
A reasonable output from a coal plant is 600 MW (although there are massive ones), a nuclear one can give 3 times the amount, sometimes less though. These Wind turbines gives 3MW each...
Somewhat implied by your opening sentence is that there are some government tax incentives or subsidies. Do you know what the incentives are?
Jun 04th, 2013 - 01:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I know very little about the energy sector in Uruguay. I know that about 20% is derived from hydro-electric, much of it at Rincón del Bonete. If 15% will be derived from wind, where does the remaining 65% come from?
rylang
Jun 04th, 2013 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Represa de Salto Grande is the biggest plant, a massive one. That one takes the biggest load and together with the other hydro plants, they stand for most of the electricity production in Uruguay. Eolic power is booming, but until that sector is settled, fossile fuels and imports from Argentina and Brasil covers the needs.
The problem arises during the dry seasons, or when our big neighbours can't cope with their own demand.
GOOD JOB URUGUAY!!
Jun 04th, 2013 - 06:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well, we have the edifying spectacle of not one professionally qualified engineer in the preceding bloggers capable of rationalising the facts regarding these looney-toon machines of the electrical generation business.
Jun 04th, 2013 - 06:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Give rlang23 his due, he at least realises that these useless monstrosities cannot ‘earn their way’ without substantial government subsidies. Not only that Stevie misses the point that you need 200 of these to equal a 600 MW coal or gas powered station AND THAT IS IF THEY RUN AT STATED MAXIMUM.
Guess what? In the UK these waste of money machines don’t even make 8%, yes EIGHT % BECAUSE THE WIND DOES NOT BLOW ALL THE TIME!
Neither can these devices cope with extreme variation in the wind, and oh boy, does Uruguay have EXTREME variation in the wind strength and direction. Finally, they cannot tolerate high speed wind either and the systems have to brake the alternator to stop them setting themselves on fire! The brakes often fail and the whole head of the thing ends up a flaming wreck. Just have a look on Youtube.
AND, the crowning glory: if you take whole life costs, manufacturing, transportation and erection on site, maintenance including regular head replacement (transportation and site costs again) AND CLEARING THE SITE WHEN THEY ARE FINISHED WITH (which so far does not happen, they leave the upright column to blight the area THEY NEVER, EVER, PAY FOR THEMSELVES.
One thing is certain however, the companies that manufacture these travesties of engineering acumen have the best marketing and sales liars in the world. How else can they con their customers?
We seem to be going back to the original town sized solution to the provision of electricity which wastes valuable raw materials in duplication and is inflexible to changes in circumstances.
BTW rylang23, EXCELLENT question to Stevie about where the 65% of the rest comes from, I will wait and see the answer to that one.
Chris
Jun 04th, 2013 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why do you dislike renewables? You got your stocks in oil?
Careful with that beast, old man...
rylang
Uruguay aims to be the country with most percentage of its electricity production coming from eolic power, the capacity being 120% of current demand should all mills operate at maximum at the same time (which would never happen). Calculations agree on an average capacity of 30% of demand.
Chris tells you the backside only, on a really windy morning, we could satisfy the whole country's needs not even having to turn on the turbines on the hydro plants. If everything goes as planned, the only thing that would stop us from producing energy would be a dry, windless day.
But the joker in this game is the ability to storage energy.
I think hydrogen batteries, in larger scale is the most effective way today, but when that part is developed, eolic power will be the norm.
Why do you dislike renewables?
Jun 04th, 2013 - 09:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I do not: only the ones which are clearly NOT renewable. How can something that costs MORE energy than it will EVER provide be renewable? IT CANNOT!
Plus, that is nonsense to say that on a windy day the windmills can provide more power than the country needs. For one thing the numbers themselves do not add up EVEN if the windmills COULD be 'turned on' en masse, which they cannot / not appropriate to do.
Then the windmills have to be in an area that is by definition windy! Bit difficult putting 200 on the roofs of MVD isn’t ti.
BTW I notice (quite rightly) that you did not try to deny my statement because you know it is all true.
Try reading the Vestas site and looking at the videos then read my remark about the best marketing people in the world! Lots of nice pictures VERY short in anything tangible, including the ‘specialist in development’.
And I have to say that your final paragraph is true AT THE MOMENT! Engineers have a way of coming up with new ways and ideas all the time.
PS How is the other 65% of electricity generated?
Chris, that is such a silly question and you should know it.
Jun 05th, 2013 - 05:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0Energy is not generated at one place, as little as it is generated all the time.
The peak moments are in the morning and in the evening. At night, very little energy is used, especially in Uruguay. Eolic power could perfectly well take the load, which would mean the turbines in the hydro plant don't have to be started.
If you want me to give you a list on percentages, I'm not the one to ask, but the represas generates about half the energy consumption in the country, in average, I would say. Some 5-10% is wind as for today, but three big'ish parks are planned and signed.
The rest is import of fossiles and energy imported from Argentina and Brasil.
10 Stevie
Jun 05th, 2013 - 12:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The rest is import of fossils and energy imported from Argentina and Brasil.”
At last! Here we have a real opportunity. Do you know how much of agricultural land is set by for the production of fuel type crops in Uruguay, if any?
I realise that cane sugar is probably out but sugar beet is certainly possible in Uruguay because it is grown in the UK.
Brasil are starting (albeit belatedly) a new ethanol / chemical programme to modernise the synthetic alcohols that are available ex sugars. Surely Uruguay could get help in that area?
Also, there seems to be a massive move of LNG into MVD (new contract for regasification) and Rolls Royce do some of the world’s most efficient gas turbine generating sets in the 4MW to 64Mw and don't forget this is on demand anytime, the WIND DOES NOT HAVE TO BLOW and the sets are FADEC and do not need constant attention. The sets can be fed by LNG / synthetic alcohol or synthetic or straight diesel. Seems like the REAL answer to me.
Chris
Jun 05th, 2013 - 08:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Gas turbines are expensive, and therefor mostly used as peak load generators and by the military, for their quick start up time. But they aren't good for continuous load, that would be too expensive, and we would still be using fossiles.
“ we would still be using fossils”.
Jun 05th, 2013 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Cannot gas turbines run on methane gas provided by units in which veg material is loaded into? Iie grass, food waste, leaves). That would be carbon neutral.
Pete
Jun 06th, 2013 - 09:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0You mean biogas.
Sure, but the amount of biogas needed to support a constant load is just to big to be produced in fermenters. Of course, you can also burn the trash itself, after fermentation, but then you can't really use a gas turbine...
Your solution is great for self-supplying of energy, but it's not carbon neutral. Gas is, after all, a fossile too.
12 Stevie
Jun 06th, 2013 - 03:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Gas turbines are expensive”
And you think windmills ARE NOT?
The latest RR Gas Turbines have an efficiency of 79.6 - 80.1% when fitted with the heat recovery unit. What now for your CHP programmes?
You never commented on the synthetic alcohol fed straight into a GT: NOT a fossil, no need to import the fuel. HD GT has a really long life when fitted with the fogging equipment to cool the turbine core.
I have not found any serious objections to running GTs to cover the base load as long as they are fogged.
Chris
Jun 06th, 2013 - 04:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wind mills are expensive, yes, but compared to the prices of fossile fuels in a near future, they do come cheap.
You can't use synthetics to drive a constant load, the energy used to make them, and the aount needed is just too much.
It would be like running a cargo ship with anything else than HFO. Sure you get a faster ship, but in the end it just wont sum up.
The gas turbine has only one benefit really. It's fast.
Over long term you really have to look at the efficiency. A steam plant has an efficiency of 0.80-0.85 (of course we produce DH, don't we?), and this is with he efficiencies of the boiler, turbine, generator and DH heat exchanger.
--That is higher than your gas turbine efficiency alone. Add a good generator to your turbine, lets say 0.98, and the efficiency is Down to 78-78,5.
And this is taking into consideration that you too are producing DH, and that the efficiency of your exchanger is 1.0...
Windmills may have an efficiency as low as 0.5, but in the end, you don't fuel them, hence it's all gain.
16 Stevie
Jun 06th, 2013 - 06:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree with what you say apart from the efficiency: the latest GTs + heat pack do achieve the figures I quoted.
However, it doesn't matter what efficience the windmills are when the wind does not blow or blows too fast or blows with extreme variation. Then they are useless. I have only been here 2 years and have yet to see ALL the windmills turning off Ruta 12 when I go for a bike ride.
You are aware that the ACTUAL useage for the windmills in the uk over the year 2011 - 2012 was a whole 8% are you. The Generators have to put these numbers in a report each year by law. Also the government has stopped the subsidies (cue wailing and crying from Vestas) and are just enacting a change to planning law that demamds the local people have a vote as to whether ANY land based wind farm will be allowed. In my experience that will stop them all dead.
They just don't work how the likes of Vestas tell prospective clients that they will. And when they find out the truth Vestas claim the wind is a natural thing and it's not down to them.
I'm sure there are gas turbines today with that efficiency levels. The thing is that with a gas turbine alone, you can't do much really. You need a generator to produce electricity, and those too come with an efficiency, a multiplier. That will bring the total efficiency of the plant to around .78, and with a much higher fuel cost.
Jun 06th, 2013 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe in the future, who knows, but as for today, I can't see gas turbines as a solution, especially not if we consider where the money for development is going...
As for Vestas, well they come from a country where about 20% of their base load is produced by eolic power. I'd be proud if Uruguay could present equal numbers.
Me, too, Stevie.
Jun 06th, 2013 - 11:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Chris, I don't think that you have factored in the +$trillion yearly subsidies that Big Oil gets by having the US and British military/industrial/security complexes making the worlds oil fields safe for Exon/ Mobile, BP, et al. Then please include the medical costs of the thousands (probably millions, maybe billions) of people who suffer respiratory problems and other physical problems that require medical care as a result of the pollutants spewed into the Commons that we all call “air and water”. Then add in the costs to the fishing industry in the Pacific Ocean for the “glowing fish” that they cannot serve due to Fukushima. And then add in the Gulf of Mexico shrimp and fishing industry losses after your favorite company, BP, destroyed the industry there. Shall I continue?
The true costs of oil and nuclear energy make the most inefficient of wind generators more than financially viable, as if the financial costs are all we ever need to think about.
I don't expect you to agree, but maybe some of the others who write on or read this thread will begin to get the true picture of what energy really costs us all. It's insane and suicidal to continue with oil and nuclear. But, of course (according the the Theme Song from M.A.S.H.) Suicide Is Painless. Let's all just continue to do it.
Well, where to start?
Jun 07th, 2013 - 01:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stevie: The RR spec is MWe! That little “e” is the output in electricity: it's a GAS TURBINE GENERATOR. The total efficiency includes everything! Have you REALLY looked at this sector or are you just parroting from the windmill brigade?
rylng23: You are absolutely correct, I don't agree. Your argument is very poorly structured and lacks any link to real data.
If ever Uruguay were stupid enough to get 20% by wind power it will have destroyed the very thing the two of you AND ME care for: the countryside.
If you must build these waste of resource machines put them offshore.
Chris
Jun 07th, 2013 - 07:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you trying to tell me that your mentioned gas turbine has an efficiency of .8 in electricity production alone?
I don't believe you, for the simple reason that your losses in flue gas will always be bigger than 20%. Not even a combined cycle turbine reaches that amount, and those use the flue gas to drive a steam turbine...
Please give me a link for additional info, if you may.
@21 Stevie
Jun 07th, 2013 - 10:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry, could not locate the independent tests on RR GTs but here is a comparable one: NOTE the efficiency:
http://www.forecastinternational.com/samples/F646_CompleteSample.pdf
Page 27 of 34: Kawasaki 1,500 kWe nominal rating variation of efficiency with ambient temp.
This unit is half the nominal 3MW of the Vestas windmill but as we all know that means it has 6,25 times the ACTUAL power output if the windmill operates at the ACTUAL 8% efficiency as per Vestas UK windmills in the sea farm off SE UK. That's the Vestas BS for you, good eh?
So FIVE of these units would put out slightly MORE power than the THIRTY that the forest company have just been suckered into.
Are you going to tell me that THIRTY windmills cost less to the environment than FIVE GTs in the whole life cost?
AND, as you didn’t believe me about the efficiency, try believing your own eyes with this little lot.
VESTAS failure:
http://www.forecastinternational.com/samples/F646_CompleteSample.pdf
Runaway windmill due to gusting wind (UYU?) and brake failure:
http://www.forecastinternational.com/samples/F646_CompleteSample.pdf
And another one at Ardrossan, AUS, just after we were there (love the ‘green smoke’ comment):
http://www.forecastinternational.com/samples/F646_CompleteSample.pdf
And the latest one:
http://www.forecastinternational.com/samples/F646_CompleteSample.pdf
As they say in court: I rest my case.
Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!