Ecuador's foreign minister said his country was analyzing a request for asylum by fugitive US intelligence whistleblower Edward Snowden who is currently in Moscow Read full article
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Does Snowden realise what a intellectual hellhole of a backwater Ecuador is?Jun 24th, 2013 - 08:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0
One of the most corrupt countries in the world and which has just had a law imposed which very strictly denies the freedom of the press. What more could he want?
Oh, the irony.Jun 24th, 2013 - 08:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0
This will become another case of the Ecuadorian government trying to score cheap political points in the short term, but will eventually (just like Assange) become a long term problem for them.Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Another stone for Ecuador's shoe. :)
If they had any sense they'd refuse this and let it become someone else's problem. The US aren't just going to forget that this man betrayed his own country, they want him back to face due process.
Ricardo Patino -”It (the request) has to do with freedom of expression and the security of citizens around the world. We always act by principle not in our own interest.”Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0
LMAO!Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0
I see those that want leak Chinese and Russian secrets rarely make it outside their country.
Snowden has already spilled the beans on what are universally accepted things that spy agencies SHOULD be doing-- and by doing so he blew asylum in a comfortable Anglosphere liberal democracy. Big mistake, like Julian, he got cocky. Let him be Ecuador's pet so he can be their pet and a prop for their lie of an open society where everyone has the right to agree with the government -- like little Julian but with a much larger bird cage (sing for Correa like a good little birdie, Eddie.)Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0
He was not allowed to enter Russia, he was sent straight to the departure lounge to await his flight to Cuba.Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0
This is more than publishing embarrassing diplomatic cables. Ecuador should decide very carefully.Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Ecuador will eventually regret the day they ever offered Snowden and Assange asylum. The US will not forget.Jun 24th, 2013 - 10:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0
@7 Quite so. China and Russia avoided a diplomatic incident with the US whilst naive Ecuador embraces trouble. What is it about the Bolivarian leaders that only short-term thinking is possible?Jun 24th, 2013 - 10:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0
So emails, phone messages tapped,so what? IF YOU have nothing to hide Ok. If you are a terrorist be afraid, seems to me better to have it in the open.Secret Service documents should be SECRET. Snowdon KNEW what he said would be explosive and will have to take his punishment, the US will pursue him to the end of the earth.Jun 24th, 2013 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0
@11. In this day and age, its darned easy to unwittingly comit six felonies before breakfast so I wouldn't bet on that.. ;-). But what's key here is that Snowden, like Manning, had proper whistle blowing conduits in government that he could have used but chose celebrity. Then he showed off what he knew in a botched self-promotion and blabbed about more legit NSA activity and now only a fool would take him in.... And oh look! Someone has!Jun 24th, 2013 - 11:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Apparently he wasn't on the flight to Cuba.Jun 24th, 2013 - 11:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0
One wonders where he actually is? On the way to the US perhaps?
What do people really think spies do ?Jun 24th, 2013 - 12:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
The clue could be in the word spy
Don't know much about spies in the USA, but I recall the fate(s) of several British ones. Guy Burgess died in Moscow in 1963 aged 52. Donald Maclean died in Moscow in 1983 aged 69. Kim Philby died in Moscow in 1988 aged 76. Anthony Blunt, after making a full confession, died in London in 1983 aged 75. Assange and Snowden are now in the same class. Dangers to national security. Good luck in Quito, Eddie. You'll be glad to hear that Ecuador has a Transparency and Social Control branch to its government. Lovely. How are things in London, Julie? I gather you could be there for another NINE years. Until the validity of the extradition warrant expires. Mind you, another warrant can then be granted.Jun 24th, 2013 - 12:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
They seek him here they seek him there.Jun 24th, 2013 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Quite so, Poppy #8;Jun 24th, 2013 - 12:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
this is releasing evidence of powerful illegalities being conducted by the most powerful and most self-righteous country on earth against many other nations. This is not an anodyne mass-Wikileak.
He will almost certainly have a ricin/polonium-type accident.
Sorry, Elaine. Sometimes things just have to be made public.
If those that know remain quiet and acquiesce, they are no better than the politicians in Brasil who pocket the regular wads of mensalao dollars.
Just different types of the same corruption.
@17 We are never going to agree on this. :)Jun 24th, 2013 - 12:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I just think the whole mess is going to blow up in Correas face: GOOD.Jun 24th, 2013 - 12:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@16. He's no Scarlet Pimpernel,Jun 24th, 2013 - 01:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
He's no James Bond.
He's no Austin Powers.
He's no Sterling Archer...
(But it DOES sound like he may have worked for ISIS.)
He's not even Carl the Intern.
Heck, my 5 year old can navigate a major airport to get to the Skyclub/Play area/Bar. Apparently this fully grown adult clown can't even make it to the gate.
@17, Geoff, he could have handed it to Rand Paul (Obama Presidency) or Al Franken (Bush Presidency). There are always proper people in power in the proper whistleblower chain to accept information for the public good and if it's politically expedient, well that's not a bug, gosh darnit, that's a feature, if not the while point. You don't, for example, hand over the Belarus democracy reform movement on a silver platter to a thug like Lukashenko, or tell the Chinese that the NSA are doing to them their own intelligence bodies are doing to us and call it whitleblowing.
#17 How you believe combing the interne is the same as barging in someones home without a search warrant is one of the same is beyond rational thinking. When I am in my home I expect full and complete privacy. When I walk the public streets, I forgo the that privacy, just as I forgo thinking I have privacy on the internet.Jun 24th, 2013 - 01:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I certainly do not consider searching and combing the internet for potentional terrorist attacks in the same category as China hacking the DoD, treasury and State computers, apparently you you condone China and condemn the US's actions to protect more that just US citizens.
The good in this: it will be a more controlled search. However, the fact remains this was legal and snowden is not a whisle blower by any stretch of the imagination. Spy's spy.....always have and always will.
*snowden will eventually pay for his actions.
*ecuador is slowly regreting jules as the USA cares less about him, his penis forces him to continue his lie to evade Sweden.
*Whomever takes snowden should think long and hard because this one is not fading away like assange
@17Jun 24th, 2013 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
And we are to believe that the same activities are not being carried out by other nations such as China and Russia.
All nations will have potentially dubious methods for gathering intelligence that is the nature of the beast.
Some things will and need to kept secret.
Snowden took on a position of trust, he signed the official secrets act, broke his position of trust and is now being pursued for this. His (and Assange's) choice of Ecuador for Asylum speaks volumes.
Your comparison with politicians in Brazil is a bit tenuous.
I have to agree with the majority here. If people work in a position where they are privy to sensitive information and are bound to secrecy, they should be prosecuted if they blab. If he was so sure the world had to know about this he should have had the balls to stay in the US, not run away like the coward Assange.Jun 24th, 2013 - 02:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
No one is entitled to do ANYTHING in their own home. The laws apply wherever you are.
Apparently Russia is considering the extradition request from the US. Oh, how I would love to hear the bartering going on. But I guess it is secret. :)
I recall the Iranian who lived in the dearture lounge of Charles De Gaulle airport for 17 years.Jun 24th, 2013 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
At least he could wander around - visit shops etc, unlike Assange. Harrods, so near- yet so far.
Elaine perhaps the USA will back out of support the Syrian heart eating rebels to get snowden...and thatb would suite me and most Americans just fine.Jun 24th, 2013 - 02:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Also, if you were responding to my statements about actions in my home, I was not referring to DOING anything in my home. I was making the statement that I expect and have the right to privacy in my home that is not carried over to the internet. If the government want to enter my home, they for the most part need a search warrant, unless police are in hot pursuit or it is a matter of grave and imminent danger to the public.
@17 Sorry, you are mistaken. You mention illegalities. By what standard? One bunch can send in fifth-columnists, spies, saboteurs, propagandists and hate preachers. The other side has to give them all their human rights and reveal all their intelligence mechanisms and sources.Jun 24th, 2013 - 02:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
What exactly has to be made public if it reduces its effectiveness and exposes everyone to more danger. Whilst the end may not always justify the means, Western civilisations have a greater propensity toward questioning the need for means compared to Russian, Chinese, Asian, Islamic societies.
I want you to think about the various different methods Allied” intelligence agencies used to obtain information during the Second World War. All sorts of things were done in order to inflict the maximum damage on the enemy whilst reducing the risk to allied bomber crews, fighter pilots, troops, warship crews. WE ARE IN A WAR. Where our enemies use our freedoms against us.
Your comment suggests that you have a mental age of about 10 years. It would be an idea if you could say something that might persuade me that you are an adult, intelligent, educated person.
Just a quickie. If a covert, disguised, unrecorded, monitored, CCTV camera shows you being beaten senseless, or killed, before being robbed and in time for police vehicles and ambulances to arrive, apprehend your attackers and save your life, do you want to reveal the location of the camera and its capabilities? Think hard. Your LIFE may depend on it. But Assange and Snowden think that THEY have the right to decide. One word. Hubris. You need to THINK very, very, hard. At the moment, those that DECIDE are elected by you or are under their instructions. But I've decided that, in future, I will decide. Okay with that?
Patiño questioned the concept of treason allegations against Snowden and said apparent US surveillance of foreign nations was in fact a rights abuse against the whole world.Jun 24th, 2013 - 03:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
The naivety of Patino's statement is a resounding example of why his nation is in the minor leagues on the international stage. Protecting one's citizens is more than restricting free speech and freedom of the press and changing the constitution. Ecuador should stick to what they know best.....bananas....appropriately their nuymber one export for the number one banana republic and again appropriately name the Republic of Ecuador.
@25 I was making more of a general point, not particularly aimed at you. : ) It seems people (not anyone here in particular) are under the false impression that the freedom we enjoy comes at no cost. There is always a trade-off.Jun 24th, 2013 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I too do not think we should be arming the Syrian rebels for the simple reason that once the arms are released there is absolutely no control over where, when and how they are used. I also don't want to see another Rwanda where the world turned a blind eye to the genocide. Humanitarian aid would be a far better solution IMO.
Let's be honest here. Ecuador is not about freedom of speech, they suppress their own press and population, they are all about grabbing a little attention by irritating the US. Short-sighted. The Bolivarian Revolution died with Chavez and we are just witnessing the slow decomposition of the remains.
Patiño is not the brightest star in the firmament - he is on a par with his crony, Rafael Correa.Jun 24th, 2013 - 03:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
This problem is going to bite Ecuador in the arse - GREAT!
I think ecuador is not aware of the 5 minutes of glory they are recieving will be paid with many years of misery. The same with snowden and assange. They are both so righteous in their believes that they find they had to run to countries with the least amount of freedoms.Jun 24th, 2013 - 03:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Conq. makes an interesting point ..Jun 24th, 2013 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
we are 'in a war', so anything goes. In our name, anything goes.
My child-like belief that if a thing is illegal then it must be wrong is certainly the position of one of life's innocents.
If the illegality is institutionalised, does this mean it is less illegal?
If I say out loud Wow, that is illegal! am I to be hung or am I to be praised?
It is that balance between the right and wrong of state activities done in my name that is at issue.
Perhaps if other nations do it, it is OK for my nation to do it ... but should any limits be placed on what my nation does in my name?
And if a nation steps way beyond the mark into a racking up of illegality, is it my right .. is it my duty, to publish?
Journalists do it all the time, why, the Guardian did it just last week with GCHQ 'illegalities'! Do they have rights that we, the ordinary Joes, do not have?
War is different: the German people were right to keep quiet about their extermination camps; it would have damaged their German war effort.
Peace is different: ...... or is it?
Difficult, isn't it.
@31 Very difficult. All the time we live in an unfair world where people and countries don't play by the same rules there is always going to be a necessity to use tactics we would rather not.Jun 24th, 2013 - 04:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
As for Snowden, he betrayed his position for fame and because HE decided people should be made aware of everything he knew. What gave him that right? If he did it on principle he won't mind having them tested in court will he?
Assange will be playing second fiddle now - upstaged and impotent, he will be forgotten.Jun 24th, 2013 - 04:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Mind you, he will make a lot of noise from the sidelines for awhile, until he fades away into irrelevance.
#31 Do you truly believe in your heart and brain that what the USA did is the same as the people of Germany hiding the outright extermination of human beings the same? Think about what you said.Jun 24th, 2013 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
If you think that the free world is not at war with radical, extremist Muslims that distort the Koran, you are sadly and naively mistaken. Everyone sacrifices in war and the causalities are typically peoples rights, in this case some privacies as in the internet or cell phones. If you ask anyone in the free world and that obviously excludes the bubble you currently live in, if they would freely give up privacy of the internet if it prevented the Twin Towers, the London Subway bombing or Mumbai massacre, and…and…and, I think you may be surprised in the results.
You sir are blatantly naïve to the nth power if you think that there is not a separation in the degrees of legality and illegalities when it comes to war and protecting citizens. Perhaps you are not aware of this because your country cannot accomplish this if it found itself in the same scenario, or perhaps your country is better known for killing it’s citizens.
The right to privacy versus the right to life….it is the same to you? It is a given the people die in war and sometimes innocent people die in war. It is a different matter when a government decides to exterminate humans with a systematic plan. I find it appalling that anyone can even consider comparing what the nazi’s did to most anything since then. And let’s not forget what continent of countries sanctioned the runaway war criminals with a free life.
Your values and morals are out of place in this case.
@34 I just heard a report on the legality of what the US government is doing. That is, tracking who you make contact with rather than the content of the correspondence. Apparently it has been legal for 35 years in the US and supported by The Supreme Court. (Obviously it originally applied to post and land lines).Jun 24th, 2013 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
From my perspective, I don't want some unelected nobody deciding they are free to give away intelligence to everyone, including people that plan to harm me and/or my countrymen.
Apparently Ecuador wants to become the centre of attention in South America, ahead of the infamous CFK,Jun 24th, 2013 - 06:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Apparently they have now acquired a list of unwanted lone wolves that they may give asylum to
Application by post, email, or any local Ecuadorian embassy..lol.
Elaine is your last paragraph referring to Snowden?Jun 24th, 2013 - 06:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@37 I am speaking in a wider perspective because what Snowden has done has wider implications. I am actually English and a British Citizen.Jun 24th, 2013 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
How good or bad a country Ecuador is, or how short sighted Correa is, are all irrelevant with regards to Snowdon’s actions. He chose to do what he did for his own reasons and must know that there will be consequences.Jun 24th, 2013 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
It is impossible for the secret services to be both secret and publicly accountable, yet it is only right that their activities be kept in check. The only mechanism is whistle blowing. Whether we agree or not with the action taken by a given the whistle blower, it is about the only way to periodically have the activities of the secret services scrutinised, which on balance is good.
@36 BritonJun 24th, 2013 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
You don't know how right you are!
Hmmmm,Jun 24th, 2013 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
no Troll activity yet.
I cannot help but think that they are coordinating their public position on policy regarding this subject...
Assange doing his best to hijack the limelight in this story.Jun 24th, 2013 - 07:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
His people are assisting etc, etc, etc!
Yes I know you are British. I am not that thrilled about his actions myself. He claims they are based on his values and principles, yet they are not tough enough to stick around to make his case.Jun 24th, 2013 - 07:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
He claims that he is crusading in the name of internet privacy and
where does he seek asylum? China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela and ecuador. ......obvious pillars of freedoms of speech and media and internet. They outright censor the internet.
#39.....I understand what you are saying......and I may weakly agree, but he is not a whistleblower.......just a treasonist.
#36 and #40 I agree as well. LEts see how SA comes to ecuador's reason when all this leaking and asylum shit explodes in correa's face. The stink will keep everyone away from him.
Troy.....usually a consolidated front is the strongest .....except for the trolls.....but yes they are proparing their high ground, moral speech, dotted with human rights.
julie see this as a buddy thinking one day he too will land in Emerald City, AKA......ecuador.
One thing is for sure, toto will not be going back to Kansas!Jun 24th, 2013 - 07:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
42 RCJun 24th, 2013 - 07:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Assange doing his best to hijack the limelight in this story.
His people are assisting etc, etc, etc!
Assange has no value now. I would go so far as to say, he is a liability.
He cannot be relied upon to follow anyone else's direction. No united front with him and the Ecuadorean government - he's a loose cannon!
Snowden, on the other hand, was an 'insider' with much 'sensitive' knowledge, as well as being a great political propaganda asset and more likeable to the media.
Ecuador can dump Assange any time they see fit, now .
I don't think we are entitled to complete privacy on the internet. I think it should be monitored for exploitative porn, crime and terrorist activity. I work on the basis that when I press the send button it is out there. I would rather some intelligence personnel had access than some grubby, socially inept, basement-dwelling, low-life but I suspect either could if they wanted to.Jun 24th, 2013 - 07:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Let's stop calling him a whistle-blower. He is a blabbermouth. If he didn't like the methods he could have complained within the organisation but he chose the famewhore route. I hope they make an example of him.
Snowden has merely confirmed what many suspected already that the US and UK keep a close watch on Telecommunications and Internet traffic. China and Russia probably do or want to do exactly the same. Snowden hasn't killed anybody unlike the IRA terrorists that the USA always refused to return to the UK. He has a shone a little light on the dirty workings of what claim to be freedom loving democracies. I hope he gets safely to wherever he is bound. Mr Assange however needs to go back to Sweden.Jun 24th, 2013 - 08:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
ElaineJun 24th, 2013 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
One man’s whistle-blower is another man’s blabber-mouth.
It is true that our freedoms come at a cost, but on the other side of that coin is the potentially higher cost of secret services that operate unchecked like the DINA in the 70s and 80s.
@48 - CondoritoJun 24th, 2013 - 09:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
One of the Hong Kong news agencies has released an interview with Snowden where he has admitted he sought a job with the NSA just so he could betray them.
It sounds as if he had an agenda. It also sounds that he didn't bother to follow the set up processes that he could've used to voice his concerns. Heck he didn't even approach a US Congressman who could've investigated it on his behalf.
Instead he choose to flee to a foreign country so he could betray his own.
He hasn't done this for a 'noble' reason, he's done it purely for himself.
I hope Ecuador let him in. He'll get to see just what a country that doesn't have democracy is really like.
He'll be their puppet to produce whenever they want to try a score a few cheap political points, he'll have no freedom at all.
And when Ecuador gets fed up of him, or they suddenly decide they want better relations with the US, they'll drop him like a bad habit, into the waiting arms of the US security services.
He's basically destroyed his own future for his 15 minutes of fame. I hope he enjoys it while it lasts.
TWIMCJun 24th, 2013 - 09:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Not surprisingly, I side with Mr. GeoffWard2 and Mr. Condorito on this thread.....
The only two that demostrate some understanding of ethical principles and dilemmas...
49 Lep,Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
He may be the world’s biggest scum bag, I’m just saying it is healthy that whistles get blown regardless of whether we like the personalities that blow them or not.
As far as telling a congressman about his misgivings is concerned...I wouldn’t place so much trust in politicians. You have seen in recent times that when given any shield of secrecy many of them will go so low as to falsify expenses and that is of their own free will.
I see that Señor Thinkedover has come out of his briefing and posted his predictable gratuitous West-bashing.Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Do you have a specific statement to make on the ethics of Snowden's actions or are you going to hover around and swoop in for a few cynical cheap shots with the nay-Sayers and malcontents??
There speaks a brainwashed turnip.. We are mightily impressed. Ethical principles, my arse!Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
53 Faz ThinkJun 24th, 2013 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
54 TroyJun 24th, 2013 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I'm pretty sure Faz is not Think!
Im not and I was referring to Think's statement. He's a paid troll obviously his opinions etc are driven by his paycheck from Timerman I suspect.Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Apologies, Faz!Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I took your response out of the correct context.
I see what you are saying now.
(48) CondoritoJun 24th, 2013 - 09:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
You say that you agree 100% with Mr. Be serious about Mr. Assange needing to go back to Sweden........
Let me just ask you one question......:
Lets assume that a couple of nice North Carolina bible belt girls (Mr. Snowden's birth state) suddenly remember that Mr. Snowden did something improper to them in High School.......
Would Mr. Snowden, in your opinion, be needing to go back to North Caroline?
@58 Only if he wanted to do it again.Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Think thinks he is better than the rest of us. The irony is that being an impoverished RG his actions and so called opinions are driven by his need to make some Pesos as an RG propaganda machine. How he has the brass kneck to talk about ethics is a joke. All these RGs like him live a life of lying cheating and stealing. Moral, ethics and truth mean nothing in their environment. That's why they will never be trusted by Brits.Jun 24th, 2013 - 10:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
58 ThinkJun 24th, 2013 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
The US are actively seeking Mr Snowden’s extradition, they have never sought Mr Assange’s.
The Swedes are seeking Mr Assange’s extradition. For the US, it would be harder to get him from Sweden than from the UK.
Assange should face the charges against him in Sweden. He would get a fair trial would he not?
If it materialised that Snowden had done something improper to some girl in North Carolina, then his prosecutors could add that to the list of charges against him and proceed with his extradition application.
(61) CondoritoJun 24th, 2013 - 10:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
If it materialised that Snowden had done something improper to some girl in North Carolina, then his prosecutors could add that to the list of charges against him and proceed with his extradition application.
Olimpicamente dodging the question Ungenio style ;-)
The question is a non-starter because they already have grounds on which to request his extradition.Jun 24th, 2013 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
It has often been said that I am “un genio” ;)
#61 you are posing logic and reasoning to stink....it doesn't work. And if he did something to a bible belter in NC, the feds would not have jurisdiction over the charges, that would strictly be a state charge not a federal charge.Jun 24th, 2013 - 10:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Stink.....no one missed your pseudo-ethics. Why did you come out of your shack........tap into a new electrical supply in villa 31? Nothing is illegal to you as long is it is against the established world. Would you like to make a bet the USA gets snowden? Email me at firstname.lastname@example.org to place a wager. They are actually pursuing him to prosecute him like manning......not the never was nobody like assange who only takes advantage of people, be in man or women.
It's really a good thing for Argentina that you are a nobody.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/24/wikileaks-ecuador-press-freedom-snowdenJun 24th, 2013 - 11:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Just love it when hypocrites are forced out into the open.
Like I said earlier, Anglotino. They gotsta sing for their supper. Maybe they hope Julian will get a bigger prison cell.. uh... more office space if they suck up to Correa.Jun 25th, 2013 - 01:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0
'Hmmmm, no Troll activity yet. 'Jun 25th, 2013 - 09:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0
(Troy Tempest (#41)
I realised that, also. So I tried a little bit and found it so easy;
Think, another 'free agent' thinker, has a pretty easy time stirring things up.
But I think a super-efficient troll must get people *really thinking* so it forces them to (over-)justify their position.
Promise I will be less naughty from now on ;-) but I think everbody realises that Elaine and I are poles apart on the rights of the individual v the rights of the state. I guess I might have a different point of view if I were part of the machinery of state.
@51 - CondoritoJun 25th, 2013 - 10:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0
I agree that there is a need for whistleblowers, but Snowden hasn't done anything for anyone other than himself.
The fact is that the security services in the US, like in most countries, monitor the internet. The don't actively sit there watching what everyone is doing, that would be impossible.
So a programme will be set up that will monitor certain words and phrases and flag them up. A similar system is in use for telephone calls. It's a programme, not a person listening. If the programme detects a certain percentage of words and phrases that are considered 'suspicious', then it flags it up for further investigation.
Most of these flags will be innocent, and the case closed. Other's would require long term surveillance if they were suspected of terrorist activity.
Snowden hasn't uncovered anything that any normal person didn't know was happening.
But what he has done is betray his colleagues (something that he apparently planned to do prior to even getting the job), his friends, his employer and his country.
There is nothing noble about that.
@67 Not so far apart as you might think. I am far more libertarian than you might think. I don't believe government should do the thinking for individuals and people should be responsible for their own actions. I am for less government interference. I don't think endlessly lecturing people on how they should live their live creates a good environment. Inform and let people make their own decisions - within the law, obviously.Jun 25th, 2013 - 10:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0
My issue in this case is that in some instances - like national security - I think the good of the majority far outweighs the rights of an individual malcontent. We have entrusted the 'messy' business of intelligence to agencies working on behalf of the whole country and by dint of the fact that not all countries play by the same rules, it has to be secretive. Why should everyone be privy to all information when we don't know who the good or bad guys are? Snowden was recruited to position where he would have access to sensitive information and knew full well he would not be able to divulge that information. He has since admitted that he went into that job with an agenda. That is betrayal and unethical. IMO
I don't mind you being naughty at all. I enjoy a good debate which is rarely had with the trolls.
I find it interesting that the people of Ecuador did not mind so much of them harboring jules assange, but with snowden they were not too keen. Some were quoted as saying the this is not an equador issue and correa is pressing his luck.Jun 25th, 2013 - 01:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Maybe he needs a simple reminder that 50% of ecuador's export were to the USA and the extension for duty free import is up for renewal.
2012 total exports for ecuador........18 billion......9.5 billion to the USA. 9.5 billion amounts to a 15% tally of a 65 billion dollar GDP. That would definitely sting an impoverished nation.
68 Lep,Jun 25th, 2013 - 02:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
“Snowden hasn't uncovered anything that any normal person didn't know was happening.”
I would say, “Snowden hasn't uncovered anything that any normal person didn't SUSPECT was happening.”
The point is that without whistleblowers we don’t know what is going on and, as Elaine says, we don’t need to and a can’t expect to all the time, but that doesn’t mean periodic public scrutiny is a bad thing. I welcome that scrutiny whether I like the whistle-blower and his motives or not. I don’t like worms but they oxygenate the soil.
Blind confidence that the secret services (or even the police) are doing the right thing is unwise. I am sure they act in national interest most of the time but we need to be able to question them, in a broad sense, on their activities. Just think of all the occasions over the last few years when, maybe not you, but a large part of the British public has felt deceived by privileged institutions:
Blair’s “sexed up” dossier that took you to a largely unwanted war – imagine if someone had blown the whistle early on; rendition flights and torture; the police closing ranks around Steven Lawrence’s murderers; MP’s claiming money shamelessly; the police way too cosy with News of the World...and so on. Wouldn’t it have been good if insiders had felt safe enough to “betray” their colleagues and institutions? I think so.
I’m not having a dig at the UK with the above examples, these things happen everywhere and I am not diverting to police corruption of the gulf war, I am merely saying that it would be good if whistle blowers felt much safer. It is actually a small step from rendition flights to making people “disappear”.
Whistle-blowing by definition is “betrayal” of the institution the subject works for.
@39 In Western countries, intelligence activities are regularly reviewed. But should they be reviewed by the public? How good is the Chilean public? Should intelligence and methods be revealed to the world so that the Chilean public can judge? And if you are given British intelligence and methods should you reveal that? Sorry. Do try to get into the real world. Have you got a building in Santiago where you can pop in and have a chat with your intelligence agents? And tell them what's right and what's wrong?Jun 25th, 2013 - 02:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@46 Totally agree with you.
@47 Sorry. Snowden is no different to a spy. He needs to be nailed.
@50 What would an argie faggot know about principles? You don't even have the guts to debate. Just a series of smartass worthless comments. Piss off, sonny. You can't match my education, my intelligence, my IQ, my ability to reason. And you're a coward as well!
@58 No. Just leave him where he is. And shoot his balls off. If he's got any.
The point is that without whistleblowers we don’t know what is going on and, as Elaine says, we don’t need to and a can’t expect to all the time, but that doesn’t mean periodic public scrutiny is a bad thing. I welcome that scrutiny whether I like the whistle-blower and his motives or not. I don’t like worms but they oxygenate the soil. Jun 25th, 2013 - 03:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
As Conqueror pointed out, in the free world, intelligence agencies activites have oversight subcommittees seated by elected officials. As Elaine also stated, we as citizens cannot be expected to be privey to all governmental actions, that is just outright simple and naive to even think that.
But to a degree I agree that public exposure is good now and then but not at the cost of national security fractures. That being said, snowden's actions were all premeditatead according to his interview. He stole classified information and has given it to everyone and anyone. He signed non disclosure contracts as well. Without regard to the ethics of the NSA and it's methods to find terrorists, do you not see his actions as criminal?
BTW, at least in the USA, a whistle blower is seen as somewhat of a hero, like the guy who exposed the tobbaco industry knew as far back as the lates 40s that tobbaco caused cancer and hid that fact.
Depending on ones opinion, and there are millions of them,Jun 25th, 2013 - 06:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I consider that there is a big difference between a whistleblower, and a traitor,
One who lets the public know if their has been corruption, hospitals covering up deaths, banks covering up there deceit , government corruption ect ect,
But he/she who steals state secrets and selling his country s secrets to the enemy deserves what he gets,
Just out of interest,
Militaries around the world and governments, have been keeping secrets for centuries.
And will continue to do so,
But think of a world that keeps nothing, no secrets, no information on you or eye what so ever,
Would this be acceptable to you,, when if for example you were a victim of crime, and the police say,
We know nothing , we cant do nothing as we don’t keep any info,
No investigations what so ever,
Think about it..
I don't think we should confuse questioning the actions of our politicians with exposing secrets. Should we periodically expose the workings of the intelligence services? When would it be the right time? Just before they avert a major terrorist plot - possibly exposing operatives and endangering their lives?Jun 25th, 2013 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
All governments engaged in serving the people should be scrutinised all the time. Intelligence is a whole other situation.
75 ElaineJun 25th, 2013 - 10:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
You sound like M in Skyfall when she is being interviewed by the select committee ;)
76Jun 26th, 2013 - 02:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Henceforth referred to as E.
.. #77Jun 26th, 2013 - 10:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0
.. that should make her 'Ecstatic' (... or is it EPIC ?).
One way or another, her greetings would change from Hi! to High?
Mind you, Margaret Hodge would give E a hard time
@75 I'm trying to get to your thinking. Let me pose this question. Can you consciously forget something? So you question the actions of a politician. Why did you do that? Answer. Can't say. That encourages you to ask more questions. But, to an unfriendly party, that means that he/she knows something. And they will attempt to find out what. It's one of those difficult parts of life. In an ideal world, every politician would be totally trustworthy. In the public service one generally knows the content of the UK Budget before the Chancellor announces it. Giving it away will get you sacked. It's hard to conceive but politicians are inextricably linked with intelligence. And I don't mean that they are intelligent! The bottom line is that the main problem is with the electorate. They should have the responsibility of ensuring that the only people elected are honest. Instead they are mostly concerned with what's in it for them. Where do you see prospective candidates being rated by their perceived honesty? No, it's who's promising what. Thus the electorate, ordinary people, bear a lot of responsibility. We should be able to trust every word our politicians say. But we don't. Because we know that we picked people who offered the best bribe. So who should we blame except ourselves?Jun 28th, 2013 - 01:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Seems like julie assange is pushing his luck with ecuador and not helping snowdenJun 28th, 2013 - 07:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Correa really thought he could pressurize the British Government into dropping the extradition request and it would all be over.Jun 28th, 2013 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Just shows how this self-made idiot got the wrong end of the stick and now he is being beaten with it, guess what, he doesn't like it.
ChtisR, Cspt PoppyJun 28th, 2013 - 10:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
If Correa wsnts out of this mess, he had better back peddle damned quickly. Despite what he says, this is going to cost his economy in lost trade.
Good opportunity for Correa to turf Assange onto the street and put the 'hide-away' back into a couch.
Assange has caused national and personal embarrassment to Ecuador and its President.
Everyone knows that Assange is 'undermining' the Government of Ecuador and giving out false information.
He is a liability.
Send for PC Nab.
Assange hopefully just overstayed his welcome. I also read (still looking for it) at my office that Correa wants to take a more moderate relationship with the US and UK but more radicals in the government is causing infighting in his government. I think Correa has pushed his luck too far with the snowden dilemma. In fact he is getting a lot of flake internally from businesses that depend on exports and the jobs it provides. Most feel it is not there problem, why make it bigger.Jun 28th, 2013 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Defying Sweden by harbouring fugitives and defying the United States by harbouring fugitives are 2 very different propositions.Jun 30th, 2013 - 06:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Assange called the USA a disgrace for revoking snowden's passport. WTF! The USA wants him, until assanges believe that we want assange. What the hell did he think that we were going to give snowden a Muligan?Jun 30th, 2013 - 09:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
What's more comical is that assange is doing snowden more damage with his moth then help. Correa is getting to not want anything to do with snowden and realizes he is going to life out Tom Hanks role in Terminal.
And, Correa is getting flake from considering alsylum for the farmers.
Life is not playing the cards that assange probably told him they would. Sweden wants to talk to assange.....nothing is happening. The USA wants snowden.......not quite the same as assange's situation.....is it snowden.
His moth is mightier than his pen (Poppy #85).Jul 01st, 2013 - 07:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0