MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Francis will meet indigenous leaders abused and persecuted in northern Argentina
Following a request made by Nobel Peace Prize winner Adolfo Pérez Esquivel, Pope Francis is scheduled to meet on Monday with Félix Díaz, the chief of the La Primavera Qom indigenous community from northern Argentina. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesBut according to all the trolls their aren't any indigenous people in Argentina and when their forefathers arrived they found an unpopulated garden of Eden, and those 'natives' that are in Argentina now are actually from Chile and have no rights as they are 'implanted'.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0Mr Squirrel is a good man, looking out for the human rights of all Argentina's small indigenous groups, including those on the isolated Malvinas islands, who are particularly tormented from what I've seen on this site.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0Its not just the norgh though, its everywhere in RGland you see Indian cartoneros who are discriminated against by the Latino okupas. After dark collecting cardboard and plastic. It's disgusting. The okupas should get out of Chubut and the other lands they stole and go back to Spain and Italy where they belong. Nazis.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0The current implanted Argentine european population should have no rights to self-determination as they are a “population” not a “people”.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 10:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Qom people had their land “usurped” in an act of genocidal colonialism.
As per numerous made-up UN resolutions, the Argentine mainland belongs to the indegenous people, I urge CFK to open dialogue with the ethnic Amerindians with only one outcome possible, the ruturn of their territories.
There should be no unilateral activitiy in Argentina until this is done..no mining, no fishing, no trade with anyone else.
“Díaz has been refused meetings with President Cristina Fernández despite repeated requests and camping outside.....”
Jun 24th, 2013 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Shades of not talking to the Falkland islanders methinks.
LEPRecon
Jun 24th, 2013 - 12:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I' m not a troll, I'm a human being that just thinks different from you so, please, try to respect my as I respect all of you.
There are indigenous people in Argentina and there were indigeous people in Argentina but their population in number was very little compared to other Latam countries. The situation would be similar to Australian aboriginal people.
The land that is now Argentina was not an “unpopulated garden of Eden” at all, was a land that started giving profits and benefits after years of hard work and a life of sacrifices. Nobody had meals “for free” in Argentina in the past as some people suggested.
If you had read some books of Argentine and Chilean history you would not mention that “those 'natives' that are in Argentina now are actually from Chile and have no rights as they are 'implanted'”. It's a matter of being informed or not.
In the present days there are some few small groups of these surviving ethnias that as they are with almost no population they don't receive any care, assistance or protection from the current National Goverment or the provincial ones.
The lack of social conflics in Argentina on this point conpared to Chile is another proof of the little importance these people have in terms of population of the country
The National Government tried to make a show, criticizing J. A. Roca, Sarmiento and trying to remove Cristoforus Colombus' statue in the main place of Buenos Aires but did nothing to improve the current situation of the native people. That's another proff of CFK hypocresy and double face.
where is our friend “Think” in such cases, in order to point out such minority abuses of his peronfascist government? Normally he's the first one to comment on such issues... mhhhh.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 12:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Indigenous issues in Argentina are not less severe than on other nations in SA, but they have rather less attention from the general population there, as they look away and wish they'd dissapear completely to make the “European-Argentine dream” come true.
Pgerman, actually most of your countrymen believe this fascist bullshit about the “indigenous people in Argentina are originally from Chile”. I mean... it sounds so pathetic! Historians have demonstrated that the biggest amount of indigenous people in there southern cone, actually the core was on the Argentinian side. Only because argentine Roca started a genoicide against them, doesn't mean they were not originally from Argentine Patagonia, neither converts them into Chileans (Yeah, I know... you all say that to calm your bad concience to find an equal “match” or “bigger evil” and don't think that it was actually a slaugher, great justification!)
Unluckily for the fascist, they did their work very bad, because the indigenous community wasnt totally anihilated in Argentina and is rising again, also additionally due to the Bolivian-Peruvian inmigration.
I never understood why J. A. Roca face was put on the 100 pesos bill ! WHAT is he suppose to be some kind of hero for killing a lot of the original people ?
Jun 24th, 2013 - 01:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ManRod,
Jun 24th, 2013 - 01:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm sorry Sir but I do not agree with you. Just to the contrary, most of the peronist people (a sort of local fascism) believe in the “revisionismo” that is a historical trend that hates any European culture expression (including any rational and sensible relationship with the UK) and loves local customs. Quite logical since they are furios nacionalsts.
Not any single historian has ever demonstrated that mapuches were mainly from the Argentine side of the Andes. Just to the contrary any of then had to admit, based of historical facts, that the mapuche is an ethnia from the chilean side.
There were some tribes (or human groups) in the Argentine side but the density of the popullation was very low since most of the Argentine territory was arrid at that time (changed by years of hard work by the pioneers) and native people did not work the soil.
In addition, the struggle between European pionners and native people started with the first contacs (as in any place all around the World) but also had times of peacefully cohexistance. The campaigns to be able to control additional land was not started by J. A. Roca at all. The first organized one started with the first Gobernor of Bs. As. , Martin Rodriguez. The most cruel fights were held during J. M. de Rosas times. This is also hide by nacionalst historias since they want to present democratic and liberal presidens such as Avellanede, Sarmietno, Roca, etc as genocides. I invite you to read Charles Darwin book (The Voyage of the Beagle) where he related what he had saw of the war promoted by Rosas.
@6 Really? Is that something you learned from the argie “education” system? So how many indigenous people were there in argieland in the pre-Columbian era? Got a figure? Here are some thoughts for you to chew over. The current “indigenous” population of argieland is on the order of 600,000. Genetic analysis of the “European”-originated population indicates an incredible amerindian contribution. So, either the pre-Columbian population was much greater than you think, or the European invaders went in for rape on a massive scale. Considering the historical reputation of the Spanish conquistadores and their argie successors, I'd go for both. After all, wiping out cities, towns, villages and raping all the women was very popular at the time. And let's not forget that the Europeans introduced many fatal diseases against which the South Americans had no resistance. How “fortunate” for the Europeans! One final item. The pre-Columbian population of South America has been estimated at 112 MILLION. Still think their “population in number” was very little? And what does it matter whether you wiped out 10 MILLION or 1 MILLION. Still genocide. And don't point at the British and North America. The British are on record as having formed alliances with the indigenous tribes. And resisting (U.S.) attempts to attack them. Oh, and how about those attacks in what is now the U.S.? French or Spanish attitudes? The French concentrated on what is now Canada. And where were the Spanish? California, Florida, Louisana, New Mexico, Texas.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@9 We are familiar with argie “revisions” of history. How about the 1820 “proclamation” made by Jewett in 1820? But no copy in argie archives. How about the “appointment” of Vernet as “civilian and military commander” by an unrecognised “government” in 1829? How about the expulsion of the argie “population” in 1833, that is now the argie “authorities”. That would be the murdering, raping, criminal “authorities”, right?
Thank you, Mr. Conqueror, I was needing to add the following:
Jun 24th, 2013 - 02:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dear ManRod, the basic proof that the mapuches were from the chilean side is that the Inka Empire was forced to stop at its territorial expansion to the South when they met the mapuches. They were not able to make any progress to the South further than the Maule River on the Western side of the Andes while they were able to expand their territorial domain in the East side of the Andes where the native people there were more peaceful.
All this happened well before the arrival os the Spaniards.
You should try to read about a territorial, political, cultural and ethnical process by the name of “araucanizacion” of the Pampas and the Patagonia
Until scum such as Closs, Insfran, Capitanich, Alperovich, Rojkes, Urtubey, and many more aren´t kicked out by the starving people in the provinces nothing will change. At this rate they´ll get to the presidency and then ALL Argentina will be back to feudalism.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 03:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@12
Jun 24th, 2013 - 03:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I do agree with you. These poeple, an many more, are the ones who promote revisionism and the current peronism. They are basically, local strongmen that hate republicanism.
Hehe, I think Pope Francis will be getting a one way ticket over the south Atlantic if he's not careful, parachute not included, mind you I understand he sealed the fate of many of priests that way under the junta, so it's possibly what he deserves.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I can't imagine giving a voice to the indigenous people of Argentina is going to endear him to turkey neck - highlighting the the fact that it is THEY who are the implanted population in South America.
Pérez Esquivel this is the same “noble hypocrite” that is quite happy to tell the world that the Falkland Islanders have no rights !
Jun 24th, 2013 - 04:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/125892/p%C3%A9rez-esquivel-rejects-malvinas-referendum
@11 No “answers”, I see. But I'll “help” you. The genetic analysis shoes that most argies are 40+% amerindian. Got records of the “marriages”, have you? Mostly mongrels. Not indigenous. Therefore, no “rights”. Implanted? What do you consider a bastard to be. How about extermination? And then start again. What are argies? Bastard, degenerate, genocidal, larcenous, mendacious, wankers! Sorry, I nearly forgot. Head back, mouth open and I'll have shit. Yummy, yummy for you!
Jun 24th, 2013 - 04:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@6 pgerman
Jun 24th, 2013 - 04:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I suggest you reread my post @1
I said 'according to the trolls', that isn't what I believe, but that is certainly what they try to put across.
Since I started posting on this forum I've had a whole range of excuses of the behaviour of Argentina towards the native population which goes from
“They're from Chile so are implanted into Argentina.” Even though the native population didn't recognise the border that the European colonists forced upon them.
“Only a tiny amount of them lived on the land, so we had the right to take it.” So according to Argentina the number of people who live on the land means that any one with a bigger population can 'legally' just turn up and usurp their land.
And my particular favourite, “Argentina only killed a few thousand of them - so it wasn't genocide.” Even though the population of the native Amerindians was only a few thousand people, and so it actually was a genocide.
So the native people's, who didn't divide the land into 'countries' have more of a right to the and than the usurping European colonists from Spain, who committed acts of genocide against them, stole their land, still deny them rights, and still commit violence and murder against the populations today.
The Native people's are not implanted. It was their land before the Europeans turned up. Your arguments smack of racism and fascism, neither of which are very good.
Maybe you need to read better books, one's that aren't full of the 'approved' information that the government wants you to believe.
Oh but I forgot, in Argentina people and population's only have rights when it's convenient for the Argentine government. A bit like the Argentine constitution. It's only legally binding until it becomes a barrier to what the government wants, so they change it on a whim, and apply it retrospectively, which is illegal.
But go on living your little lie of trying to absolve yourselves of wrong doing. It won't work, the truth will out eventually.
@LEPRecon
Jun 24th, 2013 - 05:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I take responsibility fro what I say and write. If other people wrote things as you mentioned it's up to them.
I would like to freely discuss with you about Argentine history instead of receiving the simple answer that my arguments are false ones based on books that forge history.
All what you can say against Argentina in this topic is, more or less, the same that can be said about Australia or Canada. Would you consider these genocides? I don't.
But the most important of all issues is that the current Government denies these people the access to assistance and rights simply because they are not willing to accept CFK leadership.
It's pretty hard to use “ it wasn't us” fib when it is currently happening.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 06:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0OT MERVAL is crashing, it looks like over the last few weeks ANSES has cashed out with very few buyers on the other end.
These Marxists have ruined the economy I think it will take a generation to recover.
Does this mean that CFK will now stop talking to the French?
Jun 24th, 2013 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0An embargo on trade goods,
Still,
At least she won’t be thanking them for their support over the British Falklands.
lolol
.
well,well, Argentina govt and their modern day land grab persecution of its indigenous peoples, old habits die hard it seems.......sadly, not a surprise!
Jun 24th, 2013 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Human rights clearly have double standards in argentina.
@18 pgerman
Jun 24th, 2013 - 07:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Canada and Australia - those old chestnuts eh?
Well since neither Canada or Australia had a 'whitening' policy to ensure that the natives and 'non-whites' disappeared from history, then the answer would be, no they didn't commit genocide.
That doesn't mean that the colonial history of those countries is completely free of any wrong doing, but Argentine's in particular have an inability to take responsibility for their colonial past and are always coming up with excuses.
Responsibility is the adult thing to do. The Spanish settlement, the colonists expansionism after 'independence' and the war of the desert and 'whitening' policy are not the fault of the people of Argentina. How can they be held at fault, none of them were born during those times.
However, the people of Argentina need to take responsibility of the actions of their forebears by admitting what was done and ensuring that it is never repeated.
As we can see by the news item, and other similar news items coming out of Argentina in recent years, that isn't the case. In fact, history is yet again repeating itself.
It's not us. It's not our fault. The native population were 'implanted' from Chile, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It doesn't wash, in fact the whole thing stinks of fascism and racism.
Human rights clearly have double standards for CFK and her Government.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 07:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(7) ManRod
Jun 24th, 2013 - 08:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You ask...:
“where is our friend “Think” in such cases, in order to point out such minority abuses of his peronfascist government? Normally he's the first one to comment on such issues... mhhhh.”
I say...:
I'm right here....., absolutely delighted about the initiative my compañero Pérez Esquivel and Chief Félix Díaz have taken by using Ché Francesco to further the indigenous cause in Argentina.
@Think
Jun 24th, 2013 - 08:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Compañero Perez Esquivel? ha ha ha...I've never expected to hear that from someone from La Campora. You peronist are even worse than I expected. You don't stop to surprise me. Why is CFK ignoring these people? They wanted to meet her several times but they were ignored no matter that the UN warned the Argentine Government several times. You peronists are really cynical and hypocritical..
@22 LEPRecon ,
I really opne to discuss about the Campaña del Desierto but I believe you will deny and refuse all my arguments. By the way, no matter that plenty of alleged revisionist historians tried to prove not a single proof of genocide appeared ever. Where are the mass graves? Not a single document or fact were found on that direction. Where is that you get that it was genocide?
I believe taht you will answer that Argentine history is built on lies...if so there are not a single point in common to start a rational discussion.
Argie Turnip at (25)
Jun 24th, 2013 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have never voted “Peronista” or “Justicialista” or whatever other name they can find to mane themselves....
But I respect the democratic results of the democratic elections in my Country, Argentina.
Do you?
I have never voted “Peronista” or “Justicialista” or whatever other name they can find to mane themselves. Yes, I believe you !!!
Jun 24th, 2013 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is the new trend of people from La Campora writing in blogs..based on the poor performance of CFK Presidency during the last years they undertand they will be more believable if they say “I'm not fan of CFK”, “I've never voted her”....but they never criticize her.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/13/argentinian-founding-father-genocide-row
Jun 24th, 2013 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/13/argentinian-founding-father-genocide-row
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/13/argentinian-founding-father-genocide-row
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/13/argentinian-founding-father-genocide-row
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/13/argentinian-founding-father-genocide-row
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/13/argentinian-founding-father-genocide-row
Here are a few examples of people who have researched and believe that the Conquest of the Desert was a genocide.
Burying your head in the sand isn't the best way of going about it.
Was the Conquest of the Desert intended as a Genocide? Probably not. I don't believe there was an actual 'plan' to wipe out the natives, but the killing of a large proportion of their population devastated them and wiped out their culture.
Here is the UN's definition of Genocide.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/13/argentinian-founding-father-genocide-row
Have a look and see just how it does apply to Argentina and the Conquest of the Desert.
As I said before, the people of Argentina today are at fault for allowing the continued murder and robbery off the native population that's left (but population's aren't people so they don't count - isn't that what Argentina believes?), but they're not at fault for what their forebears did.
However, they are responsible, and should accept that responsibility and face the truth.
Until Argentina does, it'll never change, and certainly not for the better.
Argie Turnip at (27)
Jun 24th, 2013 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And why should i critizice her administration?
1) I more or less agree with most of her policies and legislative initiatives.
2) The Kirchner administration is the best Argentina has had in the last ~50 years.
3) She is a brave woman in an impossible job.
You didn't answer my question though...:
Do you respect the democratic results of the democratic elections in Argentina?
No rocket science....
Yes or no....
@29
Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But you didnt vote for her? Wierd..
RG turnip #29, mmmm.. touched a raw nerve? Congratulations, as a member of the Maximo SA Nazi league, you are probably in line for maximum bonus with that!
Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 028 LEPRecon, What are these links? Are they proof? They are just articles. Some of them published in reliable media, other in unreliable ones.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You mentioned that “the killing of a large proportion of their population devastated them”. The official documents of the Congress stated that there were 1,200 casualties of warriors (specified as “indios de lanza”) between killed and injured. There are not a single document of that time in contradiction to this official figure. Can you consider this a “large proportion”?
As you mentioned it started as a militar campaign voted by a Congress and carried out by a democratic and elected president, Nicolas Avellaneda, to ocupy a land without a state, government or law.
Can we consider that Argentina wiped out their culture? Most probably yes. As it happened in Canada, Australia, or any other place where europeans had arrived.
If you want to judge the Campaing with current concepts I strongly urge you to be honest and to judge all the people, groups and their actions of that time. Otherwise is unfair.
I have already checked the UN genocide definition and the “malones” are more close to the current concept of it than the Desert Campaing.
How would you consider the “malones”?
29 Think Do you respect the democratic results of the democratic elections in Argentina? Yes I have always respected the law where I was.
CFK won the election without any doubt, as Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Alfredo Stroessnerr, Hugo Chavez and Nicolas Maduro did at their times.
But democracy is more than just an election. Is to respect the law in writting and, what's more important, in spirit. All Peronist presindents wanted, and saddly succeded, in changing the Cosntitution on their benefits. That's the proof that peronism is not a democratic party. All peronist president wanted to stay in the power for ever and ever. CFK is not the exception, as she cannot change the Constitution she wanted to change the Judicial Power to cheat
“”“”All what you can say against Argentina in this topic is, more or less, the same that can be said about Australia or Canada. Would you consider these genocides? I don't. “”“”
Jun 24th, 2013 - 10:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And the USA even more so - and pretty much everywhere Europeans landed and stole land.
The BIG difference with most of those countries though pgerman, is that their populations recognise they stole the land...some have even apologised and paid reparations.
El Think and his multitude of sock-puppets would have us believe that no indigenes were outed from their land whatsoever i Any parts of Argentina (Patagonia anybody?), nor that any Argentines currently living there are “implanted”... despite them quite obviously being just that.
Which leaves me wondering: if there were no natives, and no implanted populations from Europe - where did all these people come from?
I am, however, as practically always, glad to see you posting some history that one can actually look up and find out something about your country that is based in reality, and not some revisionist Peronistic dream-state.
When Timmerman or other Peronist cronies teach us Argentine history there never seems to be any corroborating literature anywhere outside of CFKs delusional cranium.
No doubt El Thinko and cronies will be along shortly to tell you that you are a traitor.
Hey, the Kirchners paid good money for all of those votes please respect the election or they will send La Campora to ruin your business or injure your family!
Jun 24th, 2013 - 11:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@32 - pgerman
Jun 25th, 2013 - 06:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0You yet again resort to Argentine form.
1,200 may not seem a lot if your population is, let's say, 40 million, BUT if your population is only a few thousand, then yes losing that many people is devastating. Not only that but then there was a programme of essentially 'breeding' them out through rape.
Imagine over 20 million Argentines being killed within a week. Would this be a trifle inconvenient to Argentina or devastating?
You project your opinion as FACT yet have not produce one shred of evidence except 'in books that I have read.'
That still isn't evidence. Anyone with a university education would know that you need to reference your statements to back them up.
Also the UN defines genocide as the destruction of a culture. Are you saying that the native American culture in Argentina wasn't destroyed? Yeah sure it wasn't.
Once again you spout the same old trash that still doesn't hold water:
-Only 1,200 natives were killed so it's not genocide.
-They were from Chile so they are implanted.
-It wasn't us, they started it by daring to defend their lands from the European colonists, blah, blah, blah.
Yup real good excuses pgerman. Tell me, just what is the excuse of Argentinians today?
-only a few are being killed - so it's not important.
-They're an implanted population from Chile - so they're not important.
-We want the land - so they're not important.
-It's not actually happening, I'll bury my head in the sand.
Those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat it. In Argentina right now, history is repeating itself. The Argentine government and it's policies are to blame. The Argentine people are to blame for sitting back and allowing it to happen.
The Conquest of the Desert wasn't the fault of today's Argentine population, but what is happening today and now is.
26 Think (#)
Jun 25th, 2013 - 08:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0“I have never voted “Peronista” or “Justicialista” or whatever other name they can find to mane themselves....
But I respect the democratic results of the democratic elections in my Country, Argentina.
Do you?”
I take it then that you will also respect the democratic wishes of the People/Population of the Falkland islands.
Lets be clear the vote was organized by the People living on the Falklands with outside independent observers who recorded it as free and fair. So no blather please. Do you also RESPECT the democratic views of the Free People living on the Falklands?
@35 LEPRecon
Jun 25th, 2013 - 12:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Here there are two issues. The past and the present.
About the past you, among others, are those who promote the idea the the Desert Campaign was a genocide. So, you need to prove it. I don't have to prove anything.
I consider that the past of Argentina is not very different from the Australian or Canadian past. All these countries were large portions of wild land with very little population. So the processes were similar.
You ignore facts, such as the invasion of the East side of the Andes by the mapuches. I suggest you read a nice book, “Excustion a los indios ranqueles”, written by Lucio V. Mansilla. he met Calfucura who mentioned plenty of things about his origins and the place where he was born. In addition, you must check about the battle of Salinas Grandes where two tribes, mapuches and boroganos, fought for the control of the area. Mapuches finally defeated boroganos and took control of the Pampas. This is a historical fact. The world of the native people was not the paradise of armony as some pretend it was.
It's quite evident that there were native people that can be considered original habitants of the current Argentine territory but most of them were previosly wiped out by mapuches.
The present:
Argentine is not Canada or Australia. Our recent past is terrible full of human rights violations. While CA and AU recent past is brilliant. Argentina is a developing country while CA or AU are both developed ones.
No matter that our fathers left a democratic country (the Argentine National Constitution is the 7 th. oldest one in the World, the second in America and the 1st. in LATAM by far.), the further generations spoiled it.
There were some laws passed to promote some improvements in native people life but they are not respected. CFK currently sends money to some gruops that say they are native people but try to silence those groups who don't support her. Like the ones of this article. That's unfair and inmoral.
@37
Jun 25th, 2013 - 09:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The war of the desert was blatant colonialism.
However it seems that Argentina may be repenting it's action, by getting rid of those 'Conquest of the desert' pesos but it has no right to criticise the UK's past colonialism as Argentina is guilty of that too.
It would be a welcome event if Argentina treat its true ancestors with fairness, an indication they might be starting to recognise history.
However, not holding my breath on that one as so far CFK is too much up her own rs to speak to the Qom.
@29 I don't. In fact, I deny that the “elections” or the “results” were “democratic”. How many votes did CFK and her cronies buy? Don't forget that we have video evidence. Argies don't understand “democracy”. They are still stuck with their antecedents. The rule of the “nobility”. But they want to be the “nobility”.
Jun 27th, 2013 - 03:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
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