MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Operation clean up to reform scandal–plagued Vatican administration
Pope Francis, moving to overcome major crises in the Holy See, set up a special commission to reform its economic and administrative departments, the Vatican said on Friday. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesThe church needs to stop being a political player and simply attend to its spiritual mission. When Jesus was questioned by Pilate regarding his kingdom, he replied, “My kingdom is not of this world.” Apparently the popes think otherwise . . .ergo, they think they know better that the Son of God, how to conduct the affairs of the kingdom, but when one plays in the games of the world, as the saying goes, if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. Funny how Jesus knew the exact formula for associating with dogs and avoiding fleas. Apparently, his “vicars” haven't a clue.
Jul 20th, 2013 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@1 Fbear
Jul 20th, 2013 - 03:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are a “believer” then?
Perhaps the real problem with all the child buggery and rapes lies in the mistaken core belief of the Vatican that abstinence encourages confidence and trust in the female members with the clergy.
Paraguay’s now disgraced President shagged his flock with abandon when he was still a Bishop, so much so that there were T-shirts printed with “I am not the son of President Lugo” on them.
The RCC is an anachronism that still plunders the poor people of the world for their ‘offerings’ while sitting on billions in the mismanaged Vatican Bank.
Astounding that it still has believers. Still, if it can “sell” religion then I suppose it can sell anything.
One is always surprised by human bigotry . Possibly having been brought up , and schooled , to accept and respect all religious beliefs has now put me in a minority group . My father and tutors , by their example , forged my beliefs and I will not let them down . With regard to the Roman Cathlolic church it has , like any other huge organisation , problems . The advantage is that it recognises this and tries to correct errors .
Jul 21st, 2013 - 12:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0@3Baxter: “Possibly having been brought up , and schooled , to accept and respect all religious beliefs has now put me in a minority group ” Exactly, completely agree :-)
Jul 21st, 2013 - 12:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0I do like vey much this Pope initiative and impulse for Reforms.
@3 and @4
Jul 21st, 2013 - 02:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You both should know as regular posters on here that until I grew up at the age of 12 YO I was deeply involved in all this nonsense and misleading of the ‘faithful’ by the paedophiles in charge of the various sects of ‘religion’.
My parents who were working class (but I love them both) were uneducated in comparison with me and were totally unable to grasp even the basics of science.
Baxter: I presume the phrase “One is always surprised by human bigotry” refers to me? If so you have failed miserably your father and tutors, or did they abuse others as well? Religious zealots always claim the moral high ground whilst denigrating others so why should I respect them?
In any event the words written by me are TRUE, they are STILL true even now after all the attempts to brush things under the carpet by the RCC especially.
As a scientist I have been taught to think for myself, there is no god, allah or any other deity that is going to ‘save your soul’ because there is no soul either. What we ‘are’ is a bunch of chemicals, proteins, and electrical charges in our brains. When we die, the reactions degrade and ‘we’, who we ‘are’ no longer, exists. And all from a big bang!
Be at peace with yourself . No comment .
Jul 21st, 2013 - 02:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They have a long way to go cleaning up the mess in the church. If they really want to truly clean it up........start by allowing priests to marry. Until then, it's all a facade.
Jul 21st, 2013 - 02:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I really wish man was smarter than he believes he is. My hope is that either one, the deniers and the faithful can make their case and prove one way of the other, yet neither can accomplish this task. So in the meantime I shall stay as I currently am and not ridicule those who believe and those who do not. Both sides tend to lash out at the other and then I also see the quiet ones on both sides.....as well as the extremists on both sides. To believe and not to believe......who is more right?
7 Captain Poppy
Jul 21st, 2013 - 04:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I AM!
:o)
You are what....an atheist? I am aware of that and respect that as I do for believers. Me personally, I can't decide, I am fickle I guess but I respect everyone's choice. My real issue and exception to either camp is that to believe or not is a personal choice and should never be aopen political issue one way or the other and governments should be secular but also should not be denouncing those who do believe. In the US we have extremist in both camps, religious fanaticals and atheist fanaticals. One wants to remove every word in government, on dollars and buildings that mention God and the zealots in the bible belt who want a Christian government. To me either is a bad move to change history and make us a Christian Taliban.
Jul 21st, 2013 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 07 . As always sensible comment . I was just replying to a particularly vicious comment by Chris .But I should not have bothered since I now see that he comments ,on a plan by the British Embassy to foster the language that the same Embassy is always lying !! Not only dies he hate churches but also the British Government ,since its Embassy only repeats its orders .
Jul 21st, 2013 - 05:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am pleased that I do not have a flat in the same building as Chris . I am sure he always parks his vehicle badly in the garage just to annoy his neighbours . Never talks to the porters ,unless it is to insult them . And always throws out the rubbish on the wrong day and place . And then he is annoyed that nobody says hallo to him !
By the way ,Capt Poppy did you note his insult to my father ? Read his comment carefully . How disgusting and puerile.
@2. Yes, I AM a believer, but hardly in Catholicism or any of its ragamuffin spawn, and I believe that they go about selling their snake oil through the same kind of fear with which they sold indulgences in the middle ages. This pope preaches much about the poor but lives in splendor. When he was archbishop in BUE, he shunned a limousine and lived simply, making his own meals and talked about the poor, bit hardly loosened the purse strings of the church to actually HELP the poor. These people, pretending to be a true faithful church that Jesus established, are just a grand cog in the wheel of the religion industry and their mission is to MAKR money, not spend it. And if they have to pay out some fines and send some priests to rehab for foling around with the underage parishoners, it's just another of the costs of doing business. Oh, and I am NOT a disenchanted former catholic with a spirit of vindictiveness. I have merely made a serious study of the history of the church and see nothing different these days than in ages past, empty of spirit, a hotbed of ambition and backstabbing, with its ears listening carefully to the sounds of fluttering into the collection baskets (which you notice are never out of their hands (attached to poles, you know) and its eyes firmly on the numbered Swiss accounts and the increases on their investment reports.
Jul 21st, 2013 - 05:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 010 Baxter
Jul 21st, 2013 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please read my post again and this time without the horns sticking up out of your head.
I NEVER insulted your father: I never insulted anyone; I just used your words against you instead of you against me. You are the one who started the insults by calling ma a bigot, which I am not.
Perhaps English is not your first language and you have missed the nuances in my wording but your response was typical of someone who cannot even accept that other people have every right to be critical of religion AND MAY EVEN BE RIGHT.
Religion so far has caused more wars and strife on this planet than all the wars caused by politics or ogres such as Hitler.
I know the bible probably as good as you, I was after all the head server (I didn’t serve heads, I served the Vicar) at a CofE High Church and I could not for the life of me understand why, if God loved me, why should I be afraid of him AND if he is so good, why cannot he stop all the evil in the world and HIS people dying of disease and famine.
People who blindly believe anything in this life risk letting other people take advantage of them. Some people even think TMBOA is just what The Dark Country needs: how blind are they.
Plus, I have to admit this: where in my post did I say I hate churches, the British Government and the Embassy? You have definitely got me there.
BTW, I did enjoy your little story about me living in a flat! That was priceless.
@11 Fbear
I agree with everything you say.
12 “ your father and tutors or did they abuse others as well ” ! Did I get it right - father ? Glad you enjoyed the one about the flat ! I could see you running around in bermuda shorts, no shirt of course , but yes a cravat to show that you are educated .
Jul 21st, 2013 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 011 . Old hash again , history ,hearsay , neighbour told me . If you have time calculate how many priests and nuns there are and then see how many went wrong . You will find the percentage is low . Also take time to find the number of hospitals , hospices and schools run by the many world churches .
However ,I must remember what I learnt in the Army . Talk not about politics or religion . In either case a nasty discussion will follow . So I now cease this interchange of ideas .I will follow Capt . Poppy ' s advise .
TWIMC
Jul 21st, 2013 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Except for Ms. Elena, the nice Mexican lady posting at (4)....., it is quite amusing to read the critical comments against the Catholic Church uttered by a bunch of Anglican Anglos who's basic Ethics and Moral derivate directly from Henry the VIII's family values.....
14 . Think . I thank you , what a brillant comment !
Jul 21st, 2013 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(15) . Je vous en prie.
Jul 21st, 2013 - 08:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Baxter I could be wrong but I do not believe that was intended to be an insult when you consider he is an atheist. That statement of abuse stems from his philosophy in regard to religion. Think objectively for a moment.......consider the believers, they refer to women having abortions as a murderer. Is that an insult or a POV based on ones personal believe system? Many people whom do not believe in God feel that the teaching methods of religion is abusive so I really do not believe that was his intent.
Jul 21st, 2013 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As I have stated, I really believe religion is a personal inner believe, whether one believes or not. However Baxter, when you look at the Middle East, extreme Christians in the USA, Taliban, radical Islamists, not to mention the suffering of man in this world and they way fellow man treats one another.....it is easy to understand why someone would not believe.
It should be a personal inner thing, but this article is a religious topic. Baxter, even though the Vatican will not allow marriage any time soon that Francis is making the right moves? For starters he is talking about the problems and not sweeping them under the carpet.
13 Baxter
Jul 21st, 2013 - 09:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If you have time calculate how many priests and nuns there are and then see how many went wrong. You will find the percentage is low”
You are aware, or I hope you are, that the numbers in the U.S. alone run into many hundreds of young boys who have been buggered and young girls who have been raped.
I am really NOT trying to upset you, you are doing enough of that for yourself; but let me ask just two questions:
1) do you have children of either sex, even though they may be adults now?
2) if you have, consider how you would feel if, having entrusted them into the care of a “man of the cloth” they were then systematically raped and buggered over a period of months and in some cases years?
AND, your god condones this, doesn’t he? He must do because he does not ‘smite’ them, does he? In fact up to this present time there are a number of RCC Cardinals who think it is all just a minor thing: are you aware of that?
14 I Don't Think aka The Suicide In Waiting
Living in the past again then? But you overlook one very important thing that Henry VIII did: he got rid of the RCC and the papacy.
You might take your lying and degenerate behaviour from The Dark Country but some of us have our own moral compass: mine IS based on what Jesus said, but I draw the line on turning the other cheek and I really do support the saying “vengeance is mine” but I do not believe in any of the other mumbo-jumbo.
But you knew that didn’t you, you just wanted to have a dig at me at Baxters expense.
Do you ever think, even at your age, you will ever get rid of the bitter and twisted attitude you have or is it now your character instead of you “being in character”?
@5 Chirs: My parents are both teachers, one studied engineering, and even one of my brothers is an actual scientist and yet being catholics has not been a problem for us as a family as we understand we are basically talking of different things. Sure we do have lively debates about science and religion but we don´t ever think of it as being opposites or that you should chose one over the other.
Jul 21st, 2013 - 11:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It seem by your experiences, that you think only “working ppl” would believe in a religion, but I see it just a deep perjuice because catholicism is a religion shared by ppl from all kinds of experiences of life countries, cultures and society.
You got to believe what you want but please don´t talk for everybodys just because you particulary don´t believe. Your reaction is very hostile for a scientist pov IMO.
Thank you Elena .
Jul 22nd, 2013 - 01:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are welcome Baxter, thanks to you too. Greetings :-)
Jul 22nd, 2013 - 02:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0A friend of mine likes to say: “if it isn't practical it isn't spiritual”.
Jul 22nd, 2013 - 05:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0This Pope seems better equipped to deal with the practical realities of running a deeply conservative institution, in the early 21st century, than any of his predecessors.
13Baxter;
In my city, if the various religious charitable institutions ( Salvation Army, Wesley Mission, St Vincent dePaul ) stopped functioning the number of homeless people in Adelaide would increase dramatically.
14Think:
That was a good lick you got in about ol' Henry but, notwithstanding his attitude to matrimony, and women generally, breaking with the Catholic Church was probably the best thing that happened to Britain. They were still burning 'heretics' at the stake during their 'tenure'. Heresy included translating or reading any part of the Gospel in English.
@22
Jul 22nd, 2013 - 05:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0“ “if it isn't practical it isn't spiritual” Very well put, we also have a saying, if your faith doesn´t show in acts, then it´s dead.
”This Pope seems better equipped to deal with the practical realities of running a deeply conservative institution, in the early 21st century, than any of his predecessors.“ Agreed with you on this, in fact this kind of thinking you find in the doctrine of Jesuits the Order from when the Pope comes .
Henry VIII actually broke with the Church for personal reasons not for religious reasons, Thomas Moro a personal friend of Henry was killed for opposing it as he saw this as agaist his moral and religious beliefs.
But don´t agree about your perception on women and Church, firstly because women or girls received some very good education from Church institutions, especially Jesuit ones. But I get this may come from different cultural and historic experiences.
And also, actually it wasn´t exactly the Church as we know it, the Inquisition, The actual inquisition was an organization formed with a mix of goverment and Church autorities from around different countries in Europe, to keep in check ”heretics“, ”Priests“ , ”Jews” etc. it was a abolished after reconsideing it´s extreme and unfair methods of course this took way too mcuh. Priest or ppl of the Church were not safe from it, as them also could be called to atone or being punished for supposed bad behavoir, St Thomas of Aquinus was one of these, because of his work as traductor or greek books from Plato, Aristotle, etc.
@23Elena:
Jul 22nd, 2013 - 06:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yes , you are completely correct about Henry's motives - that was what my reference to women was about. And yes you are right to point out the distinction between the Inquisition and Church. Thank you for your clarity on this point.
Thanks to you too, those a good issues to talk about. Greetings.
Jul 22nd, 2013 - 06:22 am - Link - Report abuse 022/ 25 . Very much liked the interchange of opinion . As it should be educated and civilized . No , I am not referring to Chris , just commenting on a very cold Monday morning here . Good week to all !
Jul 22nd, 2013 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 026 Baxter
Jul 22nd, 2013 - 03:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are refusing to answer my genuine questions 1) and 2) then?
Not very christian like is it?
Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!