MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Gibraltar and the Falklands deny the logic of history
By Simon Jenkins (*) (The Guardian) Nothing beats a gunboat. HMS Illustrious glided out of Plymouth on Monday (August 12), past HMS Victory and cheering crowds of patriots. Within a week it will be off Gibraltar, a mere cannon shot from Cape Trafalgar. The nation's breast heaves, the tears prick. The Olympic spirit is off to singe the king of Spain's beard. How dare they keep honest British citizens waiting six hours at Spanish border control? Have they forgotten the Armada? Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesAfter that whole article, the correction at the end made me laugh out loud:
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0“This article was amended on 14 August 2013. It originally stated that the US Department of State had called Gibraltar “a major European centre of money laundering”. In fact, it was referring to Spain. This has now been corrected.”
However in the article he talks about a 6 year old IMF report that would be considered a little dated in 2013.
Gibraltar and the Falklands do not have only one future option of merging into their hinterlands. If anything there are probably plenty of people in these hinterlands that would prefer to leave their own dysfunctional government and merge as part of the territory.
English rule in Malvinas it is not based on anything but theft.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0After 1982 I would have thought it was based on force!
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0PMSL you are too easy.
I would not buy the rag this guy writes in, lets be honest, not many Brits do! so why should I read his crap for free on here?
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0@2 Marcos
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0“English rule in the Malvinas is not based on anything”
Can you list for me what Argentina rule in the Falklands is based on?
What are Argentina's legitimate claims to the Falklands?
Why do the Falklands belong to Argentina?
Can you list these claims for me?
Wow this guy just glosses over the whole idea of self determination. And never makes the case for Britain handing over its sovereign territory other then I guess geography. So if that's the case the United States should be expecting to assume control of Bermuda and a couple other Caribbean BOTs any day now. Looking forward to it!
Aug 21st, 2013 - 01:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0This guy writes for 'The Guardian' - What else would you expect?
Aug 21st, 2013 - 02:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0An unbiased story?
I mentaly add the text “P.S. I am wanking as I write this.” to the end of all of Simon's articles.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 02:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0@2 Marcos
Aug 21st, 2013 - 02:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Pray tell me exactly who they the british stole the islands from?
if you are talking about 1833, the only people evicted were 50 or so militia who had arrived 2 months earlier.
The militia had mutineed, murdered, raped and were in disarray.
We did them a favour!
This is just another point if view from someone with far left ideals, it was worth reading, but I don't agree with much if it. I think the tax issue has relevance though.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 02:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0You should read the comments to this article on the Guardian's website, it basically puts this twit in his palce over, and over, and over...
Aug 21st, 2013 - 02:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's rather sad that some of the left are so keen to support a 1930s style populist demagoguery and a collapsing kleptocracy in their campaign against universal human rights and the founding principles of the UN. The logic of history isn't in favour of 19th century nationalist aggrandizement, anybody sane gave that up years ago. Us Europeans certainly seem to have enormous difficulty getting the point across, but perhaps some Africans might be willing to explain such concepts as the dangers of irredentism, diplomacy, and the proper use of the international courts in resolving disputes.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 03:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0“One day these hangovers will somehow merge into their hinterlands and cease to be grit in the shoe of international relations.”
Aug 21st, 2013 - 03:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Falklands have a hinterland? My Google Earth musn't be working properly.
While i am just as suspicious of excessive patriotism as the average Guardian writer, i am however amazed at the level of self-hatred they can sometimes manage. And yet his point is that the BOTs don't pay enough tax!! How progressive Simon.
Outrageous article.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 04:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0This Jenkins likes to think he has the right to express and publish a personal opinion simply because he is a journalist.
I say he is a Sepoy.
Marcos, can I borrow your dads old Ford Falcon so I can do a drive by of his office?
”Nothing beats a gunboat. HMS Illustrious glided out of Plymouth on Monday (August 12), past HMS Victory and cheering crowds of patriots.”
Aug 21st, 2013 - 04:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Typical factchecking from the Grauniad. HMS Illustrious hasn't been to Plymouth in ages and HMS Victory has been in drydock 200 miles away since 1922.
If you're going to spout bollocks, at least get the basics right.
@15
Aug 21st, 2013 - 05:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0Lol, so thre's this, the truly hilarious correction about money laundering, and it turns our, also completely factually incorrect about Gibraltarian taxes. But hats just about the level of veracity necessary to join the Argentine/Spanish camp.
@8 Thanks for that mental image Toast, I'm just going to go and try and find some brain bleach to try and get rid of it.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 05:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0You have to understand the mindset of the Graun to properly appreciate it, it has set itself to be so anti British-establishment that it can't function as anything else. It doesn't matter whether the acts of the “establishment” are wrong or right, or what facts would get in the way of their righteous ire, the “establishment” must be wrong.
That correction has to be almost as priceless as my favourite ever correction (which was during the big US universal healthcare meltdown), where the International Business Daily came up with an article which said “People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.” which caused no end of confusion for him, seeing as he's British and not dead. He's uses a voice synthesizer for decades (he suffers from motor neuron disease), and the voice it produces does have a vaguely American accent, which is probably what fooled them...
I've started using the online Guardian as the Telegraph wants to charge me and I'm a cheapskate!
Aug 21st, 2013 - 06:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0I've been following the online comments and most of them are extremely supportive of the Falklands and Gibraltar as they accept that self determination trumps everything in the 21st century.
So they're not all muesli eating tree huggers!
“One day these hangovers will somehow merge into their hinterlands”
Aug 21st, 2013 - 06:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0THE FALKLAND ISLANDS ARE NOT/NEVER WERE AN ARGENTINE HINTERLAND.
It is disgraceful journalism.
One day Argentine will be returned to its indigenous American hinterland and all the Latinos will return to Spain...equally ridiculous, but doesn't suit Mr Jenkins asinine position.
The Falklands belong to the islanders, European immigrant colonialist ancestory just like the rest of the Americas.
Geographical proximity to Patagonia (stolen by genocidal Argentina in the 1880s) is NO CASE AT ALL.
The islanders wish for/need british protection, otherwise Argenina would invade. This has been confirmed as recently as last year by the Argentine defence minister. It is Mr Jenkins who is an anti-British relic from the neo-Marxist 1960's Wilson governments.
Opinions are like derrières everyone's got one. I don't expect anything else from the Guardian that is it's format, apposing any and everything the British Government does, in the expectancy of sales. I'm all for criticism keeps the politicians honest. But this article is disappointing as Jerkins raises no new issues and has apparently has no real understanding that Hong Kong was simply a lease arrangement with the Chinese, and with the expiry of the lease the territory was returned to the owners.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 06:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0He seems blissfully ignorant of the fact that the UK does “have a solid foundation in international law” and even if they wished to be rid of the Gibraltar and the Falklands, they can't they are constrained by their obligations under the UN Charter too these inhabitants.
Moreover, the writer ignores the logic of international law on territorial claims based on geography
or history.
'... In these cases the ICJ rejected any contiguity type of approach. As for continuity, it is argued, the 1958 Geneva Convention on the Continental Shelf and Contiguous Zone, Article 1, now contained in the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention, Article 76, does not support the view that coastal states have sovereignty over islands above the continental shelf. On the contary it laid down doctrine that islands had their own “continental shelves,”...'
The Falklands/Malvinas Case Breaking the Deadlock in the Anglo-Argentine...By Roberto C. Laver
In history, namely the protection afforded by the UN Charter against from “the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any stat, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.”
2 Marcos Alejandro
Theft is exactly what the lying Argentine claim is based on.
Marcos - then tell me - why is your Country doing NOTHING about taking the UK to the International Court of Justice?
Aug 21st, 2013 - 07:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0By the way you are as stupid as the author - the large naval warship he refers to is I believe currently in a SPANISH port on a long prearranged goodwill visit and the small frigate is in Gibraltar - all ships AND Spanich vessels along with others take part in naval exercises in the mediterranean all preplanned ages ago.
Get over it!
That prat Jenkins has been a prat all his life, a leader of lost causes and he is writing in a newspaper not read by 99.75% of the UK. If you want to read papers that express the views of the British people you need to read the Sun and the Mail, and even then they are not read by 80% of the population.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 07:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0Whether its theft or not Marcos, we have it and inhabit it, and profit by it and Argentina doesn't, What's more it will never cede to Argentina.
Marcos and all the rest of you - grow up!
“”By Simon Jenkins (*) (The Guardian) Nothing beats a gunboat. HMS Illustrious glided out of Plymouth on Monday (August 12), past HMS Victory and cheering crowds of patriots.“”
Aug 21st, 2013 - 08:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0I didn't realise HMS Victory was in Plymouth, and I was under the impression that Lusty was a Pompy based ship, not Guz.
Jenkins, and the Gruniad, are a bunch of lefty do-gooder prats at the best of times.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 08:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0They aren't representative of the majority... they tend toward self-aggrandized intellectual stands... but invariably fail even in that.
On the plus side it keeps the entertainment flowing from the Malvos... who, as ever, are pretty desperate for any straw, no matter how thin and fragile.
“biased, populist, disgraceful, anti-british, ignorant, stupid, prat...” typical labels assigned by the illuminated mercopress posters to any person who questions the status of the british overseas colonies, as well as their concept of “self-determination” by a tiny implanted population on usurped lands.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 08:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0amusing, but of little intellectual value - as usual.
My two penn'orth.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 08:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Jenkins is a well-known Guardian tosser and wanker. Neither activity is one he does well. For example, careful examination of Guardian articles on the subject on latino Miranda reveal significant omissions. For example, the FACT that Miranda was travelling on behalf of Greenwald, his American “partner”, reporter and traitor. The FACT that his travel was paid for by the Guardian. The FACT that Miranda was only detained for nine hours because his solicitor took EIGHT hours to arrive.
But let's take a closer look. Despite the tone, Jenkins admits that Britain's position on the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar is cast-iron. As with argies, be brings up the Chagos Islands and Hong Kong. For the sake of his pubic, he fails to mention that the Chagos Islands had no indigenous population and that they had no “rights” having only progressed from the status of “slaves” to that of “contract workers”. Not one islander ever owned so much as a grain of sand. And Hong Kong? Well he does mention the lease. He forgets to mention that retaining the non-lease territory was economically unviable and might have led to war.
But there's the troll contribution.
@2 11,313 prisoners of war. Surrendered. A comparison. A few weeks earlier, faced with 66,000 argie troops, 80 Royal Marines fought on until ordered to lay down their weapons. TOTAL British troops numbered 10,000. Many not involved in the relief of Stanley. But they took over 11,000 prisoners. Sounds like argie COWARDS.
What? No more argie bloggers or malvinistas? Could it be that they have realised that Brits and Falkland Islanders don't give in? A few years from now, after CFK has been imprisoned for theft etc., argieland will probably shut up. Having reverted to the Stone Age. Spain may take a little longer. There are already calls to destroy its tourism industry. Perhaps, after one dark night, Naval Station Rota might locate some artificial reefs. Whoops!
@25 Nothing Jenkins writes os of value.
See, why can't we have more of such reasoned people such as Simon Jenkins.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 09:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Rather than the rogue Thatcherite clerics of these forums.
Im sure that there must be many more people sharing this perspective in England, perhaps the tide is turning against the approach of ignorance and flagwaving and towards the approach of examining, understanding and questioning.
If yet more people would put down 'The Sun' and pick up 'The Guardian' the world would be a better place.
#25 Simon Jenkins has ALWAYS been a prat. He is one of the wimpish lefty London establishment who don't know Plymouth from Portsmouth because they rarely get further than Uxbridge or Croydon unless its to visit a crumbling building. He wouldn't be seen dead in a British pub with real British people.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 09:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0We all regularly question Britains place in the world, but we are all driven by a British sense of fairness and decency as far as our overseas territories are concerned. Whatever your view is you ain't getting it so stop your Latin sulking in the corner and turn your attention to something worthwhile like getting your failing country out of its plummeting spiral of debt, crime and poverty.
@25 Troneas
Aug 21st, 2013 - 09:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'll ask, but I know I won't get an answer:
If what you say is true, then how do you explain/justify the Argentine annexation and genocide of the Patagonia conquest several decades later?
Its a fair question? And it is relevant to the discussion; Argentina proclaims the Falkland’s are part of Tierra del Fuego's territory?
@28
Aug 21st, 2013 - 09:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0“ Simon Jenkins has ALWAYS been a prat. He is one of the wimpish lefty London establishment...”
And your Credentials which justify you calling him a prat are what exactly ?
Well guys, now we know what explains “No Vestige Of An Intellect” he reads the Gruniad (its a Private Eye thing).
Aug 21st, 2013 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0@29. you'll get an answer but not the one you want to read, most likely.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 09:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0if the “annexation” is fair or not is debatable. First we need to ask ourselves who's land did argentina annex. patagonia was sparsely populated by different tribal (and sometimes nomadic) indians with no central government ruling a sovereign nation. the genocide perpetuated by the argentinean army was no different to the one the US carried out in its expansion to the west; or the one that preceded by the Spanish in its conquest of the americas. in those days, modern nations as such was a european concept which was later adopted by their colonies once they reached their own independence.
even today, there are aborigines or tribes living in many places around the world who are part of a country and they might be completely unaware of the fact. I am referring to nomadic tribes in parts of africa, or the amazon rainforest (peru, bolivia, brazil, etc.).
they keep their customs and beliefs (one would hope, at least) but they do not have a claim over the sovereignty of the land they occupy. today, they fight to keep their identity and lands but generally speaking have no wish to declare their own independence to achieve said goal.
the malvinas, were populated by the british once argentina was already established as a recognised nation, and had already sent a detachment to the islands and made claim to it as part of the newly established country. this part of history is what is debated ad-nauseum.
argentina proclaims the islands on different grounds. one, as mentionned above, due to historical events. second, as a natural geographical continuation to the andes mountain range which encompasses the south atlantic islands and the antartic peninsula. it also considers the islands inside the natural maritime platform of the country.
in geopolitical terms, yes, the islands are considered too small (population wise) to be declared am autonomous province hence it is part of Tierra del Fuego.
@27 Vestige
Aug 21st, 2013 - 09:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0It is quite ironic that a supporter of Argentina's claim over the Falklands states that 'examining, understanding and questioning' is the way forward...
I thought the unrelenting support of whatever the Argentine Government churns out was the way forward for the Malvinaists?
Simon Jenkins this. Vestige that.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 09:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0Simon Jenkins is a prat.
Vestige has no intellect.
etc etc etc. nah nah nah nah nah you're a poopy head.
@34 Vestige
Aug 21st, 2013 - 09:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0Can you imagine a journalist in Argentina publishing a similar article in a national journal? No, it would not get published and he would be lynched anyway.
I'll let you work out how representative Jenkins thoughts are. But he is not a traitor to the 'fatherland' or has insulted the 'bravery and honor' of all those you fought in the war. He's just a journalist with a radical view on the subject.
You think the views on here are jingoistic? Hell, go and read your own press forums - yes we all can. My, the level of education and indoctrinated nonsense in your country is embarrassing to say the least.
Vest Itch, you don't need qualifications to comment, but that's a widely held opinion here in Britain. Ask a taxi driver.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 09:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0As I have mentioned elsewhere, RGland and Spain have no chance of ever gaining the sovereignty they crave and one wonders why on earth their government and trolls persist? It's so 1980's ! Calm down dear...
Who's country ? (mine?...who knows)
Aug 21st, 2013 - 10:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0(also, classic finger pointing, but he did it first sir)
Anyway - what justifies calling Simon Jenkins a prat ?
A difference in opinion ?
I think that article will serve to produce many many more “prats”.
That aside, I think Gibraltar is in for a few changes in its internal governing. Bunkering is, thankfully, being brought into question, as are the tax haven shenanigans, by Britain and the EU.
As well as what a bordered country in the EU is actually entitled to.
Its starting to look like that reef may turn out to be very costly.
@36. i think your opinion is a little short sighted. i agree that in the short term, there is little chance of changing the status quo, but i wouldn't be so sure about “never”.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 10:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0i think there will be four forces that will determine what will happen to the overseas colonies in the following decades:
1. how the concept of Westphalian sovereignty continues to lose ground in a globalised world and to greater concern for individual rights and freedom;
2. how much of an interest is to Britain to continue keeping these colonies. The British are, after all, pragmatic people and always have been;
3. How those colonies evolve in time and their capacity to attract continued interest of their parent nation or declare their own independence;
4. a military campaign which will decide their fate by force. this last point, i think, is the least plausible.
@32 Troneas
Aug 21st, 2013 - 10:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for your reply. We are indeed on different planets.
Essentially what happened ~200 years ago is, surprise, surprise, history.
You choose to unpick a particular part you do not like and plead injustice by applying 21st century values to this particular episode. Yet, at the same time you exempt your past from any such examination.
Unlike the indigenous tribes of S. America and elsewhere (‘might’ was deemed to be ‘right’ in their sad case), the Falklanders are in a more fortunate position to determine their own future and associations regardless of their size. Nothing you do or say (apart from invasion) can change this.
Vest Itch, I remember now, you are scared of revealing anything about yourself. Cowardly - “thinks, probably an RG!” .
Aug 21st, 2013 - 10:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0Three chances:
Woo the Islanders/ Gibraltereans - incapable of that which is an intelligent solution, therefore outside the scope of RG thinking.
IJC - darent do that, it would fail
Invade - tried that, failed....
Alternatively try the Alicia Castro/RG troll/Vest Itch approach - call British PM /populace jingoistic prats..... Fail again, but provides entertainment for Brits!
@39. i knew you wouldn't like the answer.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 10:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0it is what it is... for the government at the time, patagonia was a “no mans land”. the rush and motive to conquer patagonia was none other than the fear that if Buenos Aires didn't do it, Chile would. The two countries in fact raced to occupy that land.
you are trying to look at this episode with a moral outlook and want me to agree with you in how wrong it was to annihilate the indian tribes and strip them off their land and how they should have had a shot at building their own nation in patagonia.
i realise how you are trying to draw a parallel between the unfortunate indians and the malvinas colonials and claim the right they have been previously denied.
and we can can discuss this back and forth and dwell in morality and ethics as you so wish but i am not trying to unpick any part of history. it is what it is: the indians were not part of a nation, they had no government, they were not implanted by a foreign power, and the foreign power did not claim the land as their territory for the digging of natural resources or to conduct military drills.
you see, there are very few similarities between that case and this one which simply cannot be ignored - even if you would like them to be.
for the record, i do not support the annihilation of the british colonists in malvinas, nor their deportation, nor to submit them to a cultural revolution. i think they have the right to remain in those islands, they have the right to practice their customs, beliefs, languages and so on. that is my moral outlook on it.
now, unfortunately for you, global politics is not necessarily about morals. there are all sorts of implications, concepts, historical events, interests, laws, etc. etc. which most of the time are open to debate and opposing views but you simply cannot bring up comparisons which are so essentially different and then accuse me of unpicking facts.
40 - hohohoho ...I see what you did there...vest and itch, it sounds like Vestige.. the man... he has the itchy vest ...funny funny.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 10:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Cowardly” - I don't reveal my nationality in here frankly because its irrelevant (or rather should be) to any intelligent debate.
Also because any nationality mentioned in here only brings out the worst in certain types, irrelevant historic references, racial terms, jingoism, cliches, and even if British that would make me a traitor according to some in here.
I dont see any relevance in your 'three chances' comments, it just seems to be a bit of a digression and a little bit temperamental.
(btw - option 3 for Spain, I can assure you, wouldn't fail)
There have been reports of Spain considering a case at the ICJ.
I certainly hope Spain does go for it.
I also very much hope the EU takes a much bigger interest in the financial dealings of the place.
Gibraltar isn't big or important enough to justify a 'wooing' option by Spain. Its an issue to be corrected, not a prize to be obtained.
@41 “for the record, i do not support the annihilation of the british colonists in malvinas, nor their deportation, nor to submit them to a cultural revolution. i think they have the right to remain in those islands, they have the right to practice their customs, beliefs, languages and so on. that is my moral outlook on it. ”
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0Let's see then what Argentina has to offer. In Argentina it is a crime, now being reinforced, to view programming in anything other than their own spanish translations. In the islands they can watch Dr. Who in English and tele novellas in spanish without fascist harassment as is their human right. In Argentina there are moves to limit Clarin. In the Falklands, they can see Kate Middleton's boobies and call her mother-in-law the queen “anything but a white woman” as is their human right. In Argentina it is a crime to possess currency without state permission. In the Islands, they can own as many Pounds, Euros or Dollars as they please as is their human right. It is even a crime in Argentina to tell the truth about inflation -- come on, you can't even speak math to power. In the Falklands, they can question British or Island policy -- once again, as is their right.
No one believes that the Argentines will respect any of these rights. They don't respect them on the mainland, and they won't there. There is only one way where the Falklands can have what you say you want in your paragraph. And that's with Argentina out of the picture. At best, Argentina can be a neighbor to the Falklands with cordial if not cool relations, but currently they lack the courage of being around two -- just two -- elected representatives of 3000 -- just 3000, people and in doing so walked away from their much talked-about res 2065 AND the Falklands just like they did in 1850. And we all know why. Because they don't really want the islands for anything other than a distraction from their own failed domestic policies.
@41 Troneas
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0The day you start calling the people of the Islands by their proper name and respecting them as people, is the day you take a step closer to recovering the Islands - if that is ever possible.
They are no more 'colonial' than you. They are no more 'usurpers' than you. They are no more 'implanted' than you: CFK's grandparents, Timerman's father - what were they?
I understand and accept the geography of Argentina was based on the fact of fighting for it and been stronger. But you imply that today, the Falkland Islanders have no rights because they are few in number and weaker than yourselves? How many people on the Islands would you be happy with to make them a 'non implanted' population: 30,000, 300,000, 3 million?
The 21st century is all about people and their rights - its not a game of Risk anymore. But hey, you might get lucky and the world could revert back the 18th century rule book in the future. Nothing is certain.
I don't think we need to worry too much about what Simon Jenkins thinks. He manages to insinuate at several points that the Falkland Islands are a tax haven , and that Falkland Islanders are tax dodgers, both of which are untrue. If he can't make his case without resorting to telling lies, then he probably hasn't got one.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0He also makes the mistake of wheeling out the Diego Garcia fallacy, which makes him a prat if ever there was one. The moment you do that, you are in a position where you either have to say that what was done to the Chagossians was right, unthinkable for a leftist journalist, or you have to say it was wrong, in which case it would be wrong to ride roughshod over us. So which is it, Simon?
Simon Jenkins and the “Guardian” newspaper are totally meaningless in this day and age.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0@43. i understand your sceptisism. as an argentinean myself, i am often sceptic if not downright against of many of this country's policies.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0for what its worth, it is not a “crime” to view programming in other languages. i have cable at home, and i watch many american TV series and other foreign channels. the law which you refer to is there to ensure that people who speak only spanish can watch programs in national televised channels and movies in argentina's national tongue.
spain has had this law for ages, for instance.
again, it is not a “crime” to own foreign currency in argentina. there are currently mechanisms in place to limit the amount of foreign currency one can buy due to several economic reasons (domestically and international).
it is very difficult to engage in any meaningful discussion on these boards when people tabloid the hell out of facts. lets call things for what they are and then we can discuss the implications for the malvinas colonials.
as for respecting or not whatever the possible future status of the islands is under an argentinean administration is anyone's guess. Argentina all it asks for right now is precisely to discuss this first and foremost.
i believe that if communist china respected the autonomy of hong kong to this day argantina, as a democratic country that it is (despite its flaws) will do likewise. i also believe it would be willing to grant the malvinas administration unprecedented amount of autonomy. but of course, i, like you, can only speculate on this matter.
i think that what the government of argentina - as well as the population - mostly want, is to get Britain (the nation) and its political and military influence out of its back yard and for argentineans to be able to fly to and from the islands as they would any other territory within the country.
i honestly do not think they argentinean government or the people give a rats ass what the locals otherwise do in those islands.
Vest Itch, your nationality is relevant. No one else hides theirs on here, so you have got something to hide. RG sponging in Britain, or British fifth columnist? What is it? What are you afraid of? Are you an individual or just another sock puppet?
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0No 3 would fail because Spain would be censured by the EU/UN and all civilised nations. British trade would shut down on Spain, some Brits would pack up and leave, foreign loans propping up Spain would cease and Spain would face economic collapse.
If the Spanish cant see that wooing is an intelligent option it shows what knobs their politicians are. As with the FI, its just another example of cynical distraction politics.
There are nefarious activities in Gib, but lots more in Spain on a far greater scale. Spain are hypocrites because they have their own outposts appended to other countries. Its the Spanish that are suffering and if they keep up the stupidity they will suffer a lot more on a far greater scale.
Spain and Argentina should give it up and try a new (intelligent) strategy. But, whilst Argentina is ruled by a bunch of loonies we aren't holding our breath.
@42 Vestige (#)
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Cowardly - I don't reveal my nationality in here frankly because its irrelevant (or rather should be) to any intelligent debate.
Also because any nationality mentioned in here only brings out the worst in certain types, irrelevant historic references, racial terms, jingoism, cliches, and even if British that would make me a traitor according to some in here”
--------------
'Traitor' and 'Sepoy' are unfamiliar terms used in UK political debate - you know that. In Argentina? Very much so.
I agree though, most internet forums eventually descend into a juvenile 'my countries better than yours' slanging match.
However, its very pretentious of you to pretend you are some sort of 'impartial citizen of the world' observer in order to give yourself more credibility when clearly you are not. You have your own agenda - we can all see that.
@44. i never said they have no rights. on the contrary i said they have many rights. It is the British nation right to claim that territory as theirs which is being discussed.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0@47, you might want to examine the finer points of the dubbing law being phased back in which looks rotten as all get out with the benefactor of the fines being part of the adjudication process... Similarly you talk about just having “controls” on currency, come on. The Islands have no such “controls.'' Advantage Falklands/Britain.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0”Argentina all it asks for right now is precisely to discuss this first and foremost. “
That's totally false as proven in February they walked away from discussions that would have met 2065 in its full context, islanders interests and all. All relevant parties were waiting, a chair was there for Timerman. He ran -- showing that his visit to London was nothing more than an artless publicity stunt for anyone outside of the Malvanista bubble.
”i think that what the government of argentina - as well as the population - mostly want, is to get Britain (the nation) and its political and military influence out of its back yard and for argentineans to be able to fly to and from the islands as they would any other territory within the country. “
It's NOT your country. It never was. Your alleged ”rightful” disastrous occupation in the 1800's required British permission to be there for heaves sake. It's the Islanders'. There is no lease like Hong Kong. Your have no case to take to the ICJ, the only place through which to arbitrate it, so your government won't. You tried to invade and impose your Dirty War on it in 82 -- and Failed. Likewise your own defense minister made it very clear that the british military presence (not your constitution) keeps the Islands free from your government alleged need to control it (we all know it just needs the Islands as a distraction).
“i honestly do not think they argentinean government or the people give a rats ass what the locals otherwise do in those islands.”
You know that isn't true - the government had more kittens over the referendum than the crazy old lady down the street.
@51. Argentina doesnt recongise the malvinas colonials as “relevant parties” hence why it walked out. The reason for this is because the islanders are not a sovereign nation, nor are they argentineans.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina expects the islanders to discuss their concerns and wishes with their de-facto ruler (Britain) so that this country can negotiate on their behalf.
the referendum caught the attention of the government of course because it was of a highly political nature. what i meant is that they wouldnt be concerned about how the islanders chose to carry on with their daily lives.
as for the rest, save it for someone who wants to read your tantrum. i have no interest in engaging in that level of conversation.
@50
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Falklands are classed as a British overseas Territory (BOT). Yes it sounds grandiose and imperial and it even has a Governor who sometimes wears a peacock hat – like out of a Gilbert and Sullivan opera.
You and your nation need to do some real research what a BOT actual is and why significant British armed forces are in place on the Falklands – unlike pre 1982.
If you don’t want the RAF, Royal Navy in your backyard (500 Km’s off your coast in fact!) then you know what to do; try treating them as people and not a small piece of land with a few 'usurpers' ripe for take over.
Troneas, another brain dead Malvinista, revealed.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 11:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0Britain doesn't rule the Falklands, the Islanders do. Argentina is going nowhere without their acquiescence
These people are so dense... they have been conditioned so well. They sound reasonable, then bang, they reveal the dark side.
WE THE BRITISH AND THE ISLANDERS DON'T RECOGNISE ARGENTINA AS THE RULER OF THE FALKLAND ISLANDS = stalemate!
Try again!
@53. i dont think the argentinean government would oppose a malvinas governor from wearing the peacock hat if he so wishes - as long as it is elected by the people there and not sent from London.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0if anything, it adds to the cultural diversity of the country.
@52, Rebuttals are not tantrums.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Islanders ARE relevant parties, as per the UN they as peoples of the Islands and are the MOST relevant parties involved. They are there, there have been there, longer than much of Argentina, and they will be there. Creating a false but convenient caricature of them as being old-school colonialist minions ignores the facts on the ground in the Falklands and the other British SGTs and highlights your country's lack of understanding of the very people it insists it must rule despite your claim that you;re all indifferent over what they do (until as you say, they make their “political” and very extistential preferences known). And as I told “Malvanese 1833” last night, Timerman could have gone into the meetings and totally ignored them and dealt exclusively with Hague -- or better still executed a number of more mature, diplomatic and professional scenarios where Timerman could have looked like a true statesmen. Walking out showed that it was he who had the tantrum -- and that he and his government have no interest in really acquiring the Falklands. They reject the ICJ. They reject talks. They just want it as a perennial distraction.
You really need to consider how this embubbled position your country has on the Falklands is seen from the outside. Argentina and those contractually obligated to support her due to accidents of geography and misplaced “solidarity” come out looking very poorly.
@55
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Falklands don't really have a say in who is sent to represent HM Government in the Islands i.e. there is no vote. Be a bit like the UK sending back your ambassador Alicia Castro and asking for a proper one. Besides the Governor's position is irrelevant to the day-to-day running of the Islands; have a Google to see his role.
If the Islanders want to elect their own Governor (with or without hat) then it may be a deal breaker in London, and could mean been kicked out of the BOT's, so to speak. Of course this would mean been left all on their own, ripe for bullying and even invasion by a bigger more powerfully country, just like in the olden days; you know, the way you took over Patagonia.
Pretty good for be British the author of the article! This shows how untenable position ridiculous colonial of Inca-The-Bitch (as called that country, the gaucho Martín Fierro).
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Twenty-first century nation states will no longer tolerate even the mild humiliation of hosting the detritus of 18th- and 19th-century empires.”
Exactly.
“One is that Britain's claim to them in international law is wholly sound.”
The only “solid” having, is a army respectable to maintain theft only.
“Of course those living in these colonies have a right to be considered,”
The only thing to consider of their people are their “interests” as we determined with the UN absolutely right.
“Britain's security does not need these places”
And if it was up, do we care! if do not are own territory and never belonged ...
In short, the “Empire” British: their rotten British Isles in Europe, Gibraltar, the Malvinas Islands Argentinas usurped ................ and all those tax havens, corruption dens launderers of drug money, drug trafficking, etc.. etc. etc.
But, Troneas, what the Argentinean Government wants are doesn't want is totally irrelevant as far as The Falkland Islands is concerned.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The British and the Islanders wont talk about sovereignty either, its off the agenda. What they will talk about is common interests like fishing and to try to persuade Argentina to cease the air and sea blockade, threats and harassment and open up trade and good neighbourliness.
Argentina's present strategy is going nowhere.
@49 Frost
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“'Traitor' and 'Sepoy' are unfamiliar terms used in UK political debate - you know that. In Argentina? Very much so”.
- ????
However, its very pretentious of you to pretend you are some sort of 'impartial citizen of the world' observer in order to give yourself more credibility when clearly you are not.
- I never have.
You have your own agenda - we can all see that.“
- Indeed I have my views, they're clearly presented. Not the best tactic to employ when trying to pass yourself off as an impartial world citizen.
@ 48 - Faz
” No one else hides theirs on here, so you have got something to hide”
- Yes, my nationality. You'd understand why if you knew it.
But you don't. Oh well.
@58 Dear poor José
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Its just an opinion Devils Advocate sort of piece. There is generally very, very, very little debate in the UK compared to Argentina simply because its OVER, DONE. You have that cross to bear, we don't. Sorry.
Josey - been on the bottle again! What a load of incomprehensible codswallop.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Vest Itch , undoubtedly a British fifth columnist, probably in the stable of Gollum. Cant be an RG who all understand about Sepoys (British fifth columnists in RGland who cause train crashes, major criminal acts, economic woes etc etc - i.e. Its all their fault! Its not us!).
55 Troneas
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you an internet bot with the leading character uppercase suppressed or just a unintelligent, uneducated argie?
Or maybe I wanted you to think that....hmm
Aug 21st, 2013 - 12:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The truth is Im German.
Argentina always the F.......g victim why anyone gives these people time to talk the shit they are preached from an early age.just leave them all to carry on making fools of themselves or better still leave it to Kirchner, Timerman and Castro they do a good enough job for whole 40 million of you.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 01:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@64 Vestige
Aug 21st, 2013 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0German? How banal. Why not pretend to be a Greenlander? That would be just as credible and much more entertaining!
ahhh Casper ya big spoilsport.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 01:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Vestige, German?? in planted into South America or the product of one of the monsters that were given shelter there after WW11
Aug 21st, 2013 - 01:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@67 Vestige
Aug 21st, 2013 - 01:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Lol . Just your friendly neighbourhood spoilsport ghost.
This Article is designed to misinform and “SPLIT” UK public opinion nothing more.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 02:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“• This article was amended on 14 August 2013. It originally stated that the US Department of State had called Gibraltar “a major European centre of money laundering”. In fact, it was referring to Spain. This has now been corrected.”
HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHA.......still got a hard on trolls??
Its a conspiracy batman.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 02:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In the United Kingdom people are free to speak their mind and have their own views as in this case wrong we describe the author as misguided,now in Argentina people who do nor tow the Kirchner line of lies and fairy stories are simply branded traitors
Aug 21st, 2013 - 03:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What an appalling article, and so full of factual inaccuracies. A man may be entitled to his own opinions but he is not entitled to his own facts. The simple and straight forward reason why neither Gibraltar nor the Falklands pay tax to the UK is that they are not a part of the UK. They form separate jurisdictions. They are not represented in the UK Parliament in Westminster, nor do laws passed in Westminster apply to either the Falklands or Gibraltar. Instead both the Falklands and Gibraltar has their own elected legislatures and Governments. The UK had no choice other than to return Hong Kong back to China once the 99 year lease ran out. Mr Jenkins is unaware that they issued over 50,000 passports to key Hong Kong citizens. Gibraltar is a modern and economically dynamic community whose banking and accountancy regulations are fully compliant with EU laws and whose corporation tax rates are identical to Irelands.
Aug 21st, 2013 - 04:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Strangely Mr Jenkins concedes that Britain's claim to the territories in international law is both wholly sound and also nowadays wholly daft. Mr Jenkins presumably finds it less daft to ignore the provisions of international law, the UN charter and the democratic rights of the people concerned and force the people to accept laws and language and a way of life which are not theirs and which they do not want. Does Mr Jenkins really think in the 21st century we should be forcibly incorporating peoples into territory against they’re wishes.
I read with pleasure Mr Jenkins excellent books: “England’s 1000 best Churches” (1999) and “England’s best 1000 best Houses” (2003) and can only hope that in the future Mr Jenkins sticks to writing on those subjects in which he is knowledgeable.
Of course the Malvinas will be returned to Argentina within the next 25 years. The only unknown is how much capital, both monetary and diplomatic, the UK will spend trying to retain it in the interval.
Aug 22nd, 2013 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who cares about Simon Jenkins and what he writes...?
Aug 22nd, 2013 - 08:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Because after all it does matter one iota...
Everyone has an opinion, but that is exactly what he gives us…. Nothing more, nothing less – an opinion only...
The fact is, in the 21st century it is all about the 11th Commandment: SELF-DETERMINATION.
This being upheld and supported by International law, United Nations Resolution 1514 (XV) – “Declaration on the granting of independence to colonial countries and peoples”.
UN GA resolutions such as 1541, 2625, and importantly backed up by the United Nations Charter…
It is even supported in many National Constitutions such as that of my country the Falkland Islands.
What most folk (especially the argentines a couple of hundred miles away to our west) fail to understand is that SELF-DETERMINATION is tops, and because of this, what ever happens – we have the final say on our political future – not anybody else..!
Kindest regards from the Falkland Islands
@74 Hepatia
Aug 22nd, 2013 - 09:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have been claiming the same 'fact' since early June 2012 - which lines up perfectly with the Queen's Birthday here in Victoria.
I have already warned you that you need to update your claim.
It is now 24 years not 25.
If you are confident in your prediction and believe it is factual and inevitable then you should keep dropping a year off your claim every June or change it to a year - 2037.
Don't worry I will be here every Queen's Birthday weekend to remind you to remove yet another year off your 'prediction'.
1 down
24 to go!
@76. No she has it right. It will always be 25 years. Next year, it will be 25. The year after, 25. Twenty-five years from now it will be theirs in 25 years. Fifty years now, it will be 25 years.
Aug 22nd, 2013 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They won't take it to the ICJ. They refuse to meet with the UK and the Islanders as they refused in February. That's because they don't really want it. All they want it for anything other as a distraction and excuse for their failures. And they can't have THAT if they own it.
GFace
Aug 23rd, 2013 - 06:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Doh! I forgot to think like a Malvinisita.
@78 I thought the whole point of being a Malvanistas was that they're not supposed to think -- only blindly recite the lies told to them since childhood about how their “Sudetenland is German.”
Aug 23rd, 2013 - 08:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0Simon Jenkins is correct that Gibraltar and the Falklands defy logic. I mean why wouldn't you want to be apart of a another nation who hate your guts and want to steal your home? Madness sez I.
Aug 23rd, 2013 - 05:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0GFace
Aug 23rd, 2013 - 09:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I just took the entrance exam. My IQ and cognitive abilities supposedly mean I'm ineligible.
The nice lady at the recruitment centre told me I could either blow half my brains out (well 80%), die and get resuscitated after 30 minutes of not breathing or catch syphilis as wait for the tertiary phase.
We need to do something about traitors like Simon Jenkins. A long prison stay is called for.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 03:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0Simon Jenkins is a columnist who writes fifth columns.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 08:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Philippe
What cannot be denied is the inviolability of British Territorial Integrity, which includes Great Britain's overseas territories, of the which both the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar remain by their own free and lawful democratic choice in the form of free association with Great Britain
Aug 24th, 2013 - 10:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0The inviolability of Great Britain's territorial integrity is underpinned by the U.N. Treaty, which is ratified by its members states, whereby interference in the internal political affairs of the Great Britain and its Overseas Territories is prohibited
Nothing shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of Great Britain or shall require Great Britain to submit such matters to settlement
It is perfectly sound for Great Britain to exercise its inviolable rights to reject foreign interference and disruption to its territorial integrity and national unity
Argentine pretensions to the Falkland Islands and its prior dependencies and Spanish pretensions to Gibraltar are perverse:
*Argentina ratified the 1850 Arana Southern Treaty whereby Argentine settled existing Differences and restablished perfect friendship
*Spain ratified the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht and its subsequent amendments in which Spain ceded sovereignty of Gibraltar to Britain in perpetuity
*Both Argentina and Spain ratified the 1945 U.N. Treaty which froze
Whilst both Argentina have lodged their disputes with the United Nations, over the past 68 years both States have failed to bring their claims before the International Court of Justice and rejected British attempts to do so, because the Argentine and Spanish claims are without legal merit.
Argentina and Spain fear to press their claims further for fear that rigorous and public legal scrutiny by the U.N. International Court of Justice shall once and for all time expose to the world their claims to be the nonsense they are
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/08/20/gibraltar-and-the-falklands-deny-the-logic-of-history#comment271034: Of course, none of your excellent points will stop the UK returning the Malvinas to Argentina within the next 25 years.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 11:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0#25
Aug 24th, 2013 - 04:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think you must be down to 24 years now as you have peddled this cut and paste for about a year.
You should however preface it with “in my opinion ”
* Sorry, I came direct to the above post not realising that it had been answered earlier.
When I see the name “Hepatia ” my eyes usaully glaze over and I lose the will to live for about 10 seconds. However, as the TV is full of the usual repeats, I steeled myself to wade back to her original post.
@85:
Aug 24th, 2013 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 025 years now is it? That odd little man called timmerman was saying 20 years.
Well, I guess we will see. After all it has only been 30 odd years since the Argentinians surrendered to the UK forces 14.6.82?
A small conflict, many deaths etc, etc, - And you seriously think argentina has a hope in hell of ever 'owning' these islands within this millennium???
@85
Aug 25th, 2013 - 05:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0Carlos Menem promised the Falkland Islands would be a colony of Argentina by 2000.
What happened there?
CFK promised to have the Falklands as a colony of Argentina during her presidency.
What happened there?
“Of course, none of your excellent points will stop the UK returning the Malvinas to Argentina within the next 25 years.”
Do you mean that within 25 years the Argentines will be so fed up of being ruled
by idiots they'll ask to be British?
The difference between Goa 61 and Falklands 82 was that when India invaded Goa the people of Goa were mostly Indian so the presence of Indian troops did not feel like an Invasion. When the Argentines invaded it was a group of Spanish and Italians with fascist officers invading a British community. It looked rather like what would have happened if the Nazis had captured Britain and garrisoned it with the Italians and some Spanish fascist freelancers.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 089 RICO
Aug 25th, 2013 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well I for one am pleased that little scenario didn't happen, I was born in 1946 and could have ended up with the same father as A_Voice!
Mind you my mother would have been better looking than his.
Ha, ha, ha.
Sel determination rules! but then so does self help,both Gibraltar and Malvinas/Falklands need to introduce a 3 year national service ,plus a much larger tax contribution to their protectors.
Aug 27th, 2013 - 05:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Otherwise they will be vulnerable to a backlash from hardpressed U.K. TAXPAYERS
Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!