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Argentina formally requests US Supreme Court to review Appeals court favoring holdout hedge funds

Friday, September 13th 2013 - 20:50 UTC
Full article 34 comments

Argentina’s legal representation in Washington DC yesterday sent a petition for a writ of certiorari to the United States’ Supreme Court, requesting Justices to accept its appeal against the Second Circuit Court of Appeal’s ruling in favour of holdout hedge funds, which are demanding full repayment for bonds left unpaid by Argentina’s record-breaking 2002 default. Read full article


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  • yankeeboy

    So their argument is basically “ we are too stupid to know what we signed and don't feel like we should be held accountable”
    yeah okay
    I will be shocked if Scotus takes this case.
    shocked and intrigued

    Sep 13th, 2013 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Harry Stamper

    Just pay your bills!

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 02:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    1 No. Can't you see what's happening? The rgs defence is that the court should agree with them or they'll default. Then the bond holders will loose again. Its an rg setup.

    America should put sanctions on rg. Then they could seize assets. But they are too gutless to do that - just like they'll never attack Iran. America has no credibility any more.

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 02:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Xect

    To be honest, even if they did somehow manage to avoid a judgement against them, NML have done a huge amount of damage already to Argentina.

    Argentina's options; Lose badly or lose really badly and default.

    Argentina's injuries are all self inflicted though.

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 05:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • toxictaxitrader2

    Argentina has already said it won,t pay,will Scotus waste its time unless it can escrow the claimed amounts.

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 05:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    But nml are trying to get paid not to damage the rgs. So the intended rgs default. So what. Nothing changes for them. A.Erica will do nothing.

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 05:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    “A firm ruling against Argentina could trigger further claims from “‘holdout’ plaintiffs” for a “total of over 15 billion,” the document warns.” So? Please don't find against me because then other people that I stole money from will want their money back as well.

    ”The document proceeds to cover relevant cases setting a precedent for a favourable ruling for Argentina, emphasizing the limitations imposed by the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA) on “US courts’ enforcement powers.” Whoops! We gave up our “sovereign immunity” in order to persuade people to give us their money. Now we want it back so we don't have to pay.

    “The petition also points to the amicus curiae filed by France supporting Argentina’s position, emphasizing the potential “wider economic harm” at stake.” But France doesn't support argieland. France only supports France. What isn't mentioned is that, while it has many faults, France is considerably more honest than argieland. In fact, virtually every country in the world is more honest than argieland.

    “Furthermore, the text draws attention to the “third parties directly harmed” by the ruling’s enforcement, “including participants in the international payment system threatened by their coercive effect, and holders of more than 24 billion in restructured Argentine debt whose unconditional payment rights have been jeopardized.” And who created the situation? Argieland. Total obfuscation. What this amounts to is this; We created this situation by attempting to rip off tens of thousands of people around the world. Now we want you to say that this is legal. As for that bit about ”unconditional payment rights have been jeopardized.”, forget that. We got lost and forgot that it was a court that ordered that!

    Important principle of law at stake here. Punish the criminal. Does it matter if a criminal's leg drops off while he is being punished? There are something like 40 million ordinary and war criminals in argieland. Make them all suffer!

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 06:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • toooldtodieyoung

    How big is their legal bill? surely if they just paid up, they would be saving themselves some money rather than a long, drawn out, legal battle

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 07:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    3. This is a private contract, the NY courts are now looking at going after gov't assets owned by gov't companies that are acting for the gov't, Banco Nacion, BCRA, YPF, ENARSA, AR etc. The judge was reluctant to do it at first but since Arg is not paying I think he will allow the assets to be attached.
    Also the USA did sanction Arg by taking away trade preferences, that is one reason their wine industry is now unprofitable. More will follow depending on what happens at SCOTUS and IMF. The USA has also voted against any new loan disbursements from IDB WB. I doubt they'll see a penny in 2014.

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 08:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    But according to the ft or the court cannot seize government assets until sanctions are applied. Anyway the assets in America will not cover the bonds.

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 09:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • MagnusMaster

    I wonder if the judges, singer and the other bondholders know that Argentina doesn't have enough money? they should take the money from Seychelles that's the only way they can get paid

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 09:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    FT? Gov't assets can be seized as long as they are not sovereign assets ie military equipment, embassy property etc.
    Griesa is even looking at the BCRA assets since it has been acting as an arm of the gov't as soon as the veil is pierced they'll become attachable.
    The assets don't have to be in the USA, we have treaties with most of the world that honor the US court judgement.

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 10:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    I think the ft and the financial community have a better understanding than you. They say it can't be seized.

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 10:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 13 british bomber

    I don't know who you refer to as the 'financial community': the banks, the asset traders, who?

    If by ft you mean the British Financial Times I gave up reading that when it cost me too much money from taking their “advice” and I have since done MUCH better on my own.

    The banks, et al, were the ones who took the original offer because they used their customers to make up the shortfall as they ALWAYS do.

    So I am with Yankeeboy: it’s a simple contract dispute, no need to be taken in by The Dark Country AND ESPECIALLY the financial community.

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 11:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    13. I think you may be a little stupid, IF the assets can't be seized how come CFK can't use Tango 1 to go to legitimate countries?

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 11:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • scarfo

    Im with yankeeboy on this, when there flagship (sailing ship) got seized the only way it got released was because it was classed as a war ship, my understanding is state assets can be seized, hence why she is reluctant to use tango1.

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 02:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • GFace

    @11, “I wonder if the judges, singer and the other bondholders know that Argentina doesn't have enough money?”

    It wouldn't surprise me that they haven't asked themselves this and others this on the QT. But legally they don't have any official artifact that says this so it can't be in the official decision making process...

    @15 Maybe she really hates Tango 1 and would rather fly charter or even coach instead and is using Argumentum ad Repo Man as an excuse!

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    But nml have attempted to seize tango 1 in America before. Anyway once nml has seized all the assets there will not be enough for the majority of the bond holders.

    Sep 14th, 2013 - 07:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    @18 Something that you don't seem to have taken into account is the effect on perceptions. For instance, France is a country concerned with sovereign debt. It has even filed an amicus curiae brief with the U.S. Supreme Court in this case. However, this should not be seen as support for argieland. It is France trying to protect its own activities. This is where perceptions come in. In March 2013, the French Supreme Court handed down three decisions relating to NML's attachment on debts owed to argieland. In order to get NML to drop the attachments, The court had to refer to the UN Convention on the Jurisdictional Immunities of States and their Property. This is desperation by the court in an attempt to protect France's position because the convention hasn't come into force yet. The convention itself provides that the convention shall enter into force only “on the thirtieth day following the date of deposit of the thirtieth instrument of ratification”. Only 13 countries have so far ratified the convention, one of them being France. Why did the court do it? Because by the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, France must refrain from taking action which would defeat the object and purpose of a treaty when it has expressed its consent to be bound by such treaty, pending its entry into force. So France was forced to do what it did. Then it filed its amicus curiae brief in accordance with those decisions. All about France protecting itself in accordance with its perceptions. Another day, another court in another country and the decision could be quite different. But every move that argieland makes increases the perception that it will say or do anything to evade its debts. Argieland IS now generally perceived to be rogue. And the various pressures can only increase.

    Sep 15th, 2013 - 11:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ElaineB

    “President Fernández explained: “I need US dollars to pay the debt that I haven’t generated”, giving a historic overview of the 1970s when “the national heritage was sold out” leading to the 2001 crisis.
    At the same time Fernández reassured: “Argentina is growing 5.1 percent, while the world is falling apart”.”

    In her first interview for 4 years.

    Sep 15th, 2013 - 11:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    20 ElaineB

    Yes, I saw the report in Clarin. Laughable.

    She must be really worried about October.

    Sep 15th, 2013 - 12:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • golfcronie

    “Argentina is growing 5.1%, while the world is falling apart.” Fantastico! Let's hope she brings the Kirchirite Economic Model to Europe. She must be loved by the population, should do her ratings no harm at all. ( ONLY JOKING )Next week she will be telling Argentina that she has been offered the top job at the World Bank HAhaha LOL

    Sep 15th, 2013 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    “Argentina is growing 5.1 percent, while the world is falling apart”.”

    When you take 3-4x the recommended daily lithium dosage you are bound to be delusional and paranoid.

    Sep 15th, 2013 - 12:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    But the rgs have been rogue for a long time. How does that get anybody other than nml paid?

    Sep 15th, 2013 - 02:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    Just out of interest,
    Seeing as Argentina has debts and owes vast billions,
    And refuses to pay it back, at least at the current rate,

    Is she still getting loans for Argentina?
    Are countries or institutions still giving / loaning her money..
    Just a thought..

    Sep 15th, 2013 - 02:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ElaineB

    CFK is more than a little worried. We all know she doesn't have the dollars. We all know the figures on growth cannot be trusted. She has lied too many times.

    In desperation she is running a series of interviews - after four years of shunning the press - in order to appeal directly to the disgruntled Argentine people. She is desperate.

    Sep 15th, 2013 - 05:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    The rgs have not got any loans for 15 years. They pay cash for everything. That's why they can walk away when the courts rule against them. That's why the Americans should put sanctions on them. But they're too gutless. We want to have full relations with them. We don't do anything either.

    Sep 15th, 2013 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • bushpilot


    Don't you think they are punishing themselves to incapacity all on their own?

    It seems the hole they are digging for themselves is so deep already they're walking around in some pretty smelly shit these days.

    No need to check that self implosion prematurely.

    Regular people are getting screwed by the current Arg administration, I agree. But if the rest of the world see their colors as clearly as possible, that might protect many more victims from the same kind of grief.

    If things get bad enough down there, maybe Peronism might be ditched. That would really help Argentina.

    Sep 16th, 2013 - 01:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    How are they going to get rid of peronism with their rigged election system? People are protected now because the rgs do not borrow money.

    Right now they are paying their bonds. If they default they won't.

    Sep 16th, 2013 - 02:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Welsh Wizard

    @28 Peronism will not get ditched. It is here to stay

    Sep 16th, 2013 - 09:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ElaineB

    This is true. Peronism is not one ideal in Argentina. It is an all encompassing word that has to be attached to anyone wanting to run in politics. The words 'Peronist' and 'Argentine' are interchangeable. In fact, if you ask most Argentines what Peronism means they won't come up with a political ideal, it will be a random selection of words that really just mean nationalism.

    However, Kirchnerism and The Model can be ditched.

    Sep 16th, 2013 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Gonzo22

    @ 31 Peronismo is everything for us.

    Sep 16th, 2013 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ElaineB

    @32 Yes, you just agreed with my point. Peronism is not a political ideal, it is nationalism.

    Sep 16th, 2013 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 32 BOZO

    Then you are all well and truly screwed.

    Sep 17th, 2013 - 03:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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