MercoPress, en Español

Montevideo, July 7th 2022 - 10:26 UTC



Latin America's English proficiency ‘very low’

Wednesday, November 13th 2013 - 18:52 UTC
Full article 118 comments

Despite a strong economy attracting new international business and increasing the need for multilingual professionals in the workforce, Chile remains one of the countries with the lowest levels of competency in English among adults worldwide, according to a study released Friday. Read full article


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  • redp0ll

    And our dear Snotty, with his bombastic English? Where does he rank?

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    Congrats... You have won a job at a call center... Big deal

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 07:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    (1) redp0ll
    Mr. Tobias, being Argentinean, ranks, of course, as Numerou Uno.....
    (As the above article clearly states.....;-)

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 07:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    It's interesting to see Argentina and India have better proficiency levels tan France and Italy. I think we should learn more in electronics, computing, medicine, engineering and tech

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 07:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • redp0ll

    @3 Thanks Think Had a good laugh re your comment!

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 07:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • willi1

    how high is the level of the englishmen and women in foreign languages?????

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 07:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    2. Its too bad most of the call centers have closed or are closing in Argentina. Those were good paying jobs that won't ever be replaced.

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 08:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Condorito

    dis is a pencil, dis is de dor, dis is de window...

    @4 CD
    I agree. Languages are great but hardly important for the vast majority of jobs.

    The article says:
    “Poor English remains one of the key competitive weaknesses of Latin America,”

    Really? It doesn't seem to be holding China back.

    @1 redpoll
    I think Toby alone boosted Argentina from “poor” to “moderate”.

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • A_Voice

    Roughly a third of English words are of Latin origin, a third old French, a quarter Germanic and words from many other cultures are included.

    Germany's president has called for English to be made the language of the European Union as he appealed to the UK to stay in the EU.

    He said that to encourage a greater sense of commonality, Europe needed a common language as well as encouraging multilingualism. “I am convinced that, in Europe, both can live side by side,” he said. “The sense of being at home in your mother tongue, with all its poetry, as well as a workable English for all of life's situations and all age groups.”

    There appears to be very little incentive for the English to bother with other languages as with the obviousness of this South Atlantic web site based in Montevideo, but using English.

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    .............., but using English....................................AND Espanish...:

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    7) Maybe it’s something useful to do for a while, to improve your social skills and English but it’s not the kind of thing the country can specialize on...Besides I don’t see the point of call centers with internet nowadays. You, as a consumer can inquire the FAQ's of whatever it is you want to in the web site of the company. If it is something very specific its not something some robot minded zombie will know in India or Argentina

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 08:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • A_Voice

    ....yes, I can see it's inundated with comments...... useful...

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 08:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    ....there are no comments because of the “House Rules”...:
    “Comments must be in Spanish. Thank you.”
    And there ain't any Anglo capable of it...

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 08:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • A_Voice

    ....and Spanish Speakers don't bother communicating with each other..nothing to say?

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    .... Most Spanish speakers commenting at Mercopress are here to practise their English...

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 09:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    @15 XD

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 10:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Gracias, chamaca. ;-)

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 10:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    11. Call centers are important in the USA, we want to speak to someone live, in English and immediately, 24hrs a day. FAQ are just a bother for most of us.
    Call centers are a good service oriented business. Rgs are good at service. You make great maids, bartenders, drivers etc. I had an amazing staff when I lived there. My main housekeeper spoke very good English.

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 10:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    18) Americans are good at services like…… Porn... What would the worlds viewers ever do without you guys?? ?
    The only exports you still dominate.

    Nov 13th, 2013 - 11:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    $ 1,564,000,000,000 is our estimated annual exports
    That is sure a lot of porn!!

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 12:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    But you own to China alone 14,3 trillion to the rest of the world.... But Katie Morgan's maid is Argentine perhaps and at least and Sasha Grey can inquire a call center in Argentina 24/7.....dickhead

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 12:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    There's a party trick I do when my Colombian flatmate's friends come over.

    I can tell if they studied English at home in Colombia, Venezuela, Chile or Argentina before they arrived in Australia or whether they learnt English from scratch in Australia. And so far I've never been wrong.

    As for learning English, historical accident has elevated it as the world's sole global language and in an interconnected world this can radically improve your job and career prospects. Contrary to opinions voiced above, there is a massive push for Chinese to learn English. Indeed it is estimated that only 75% of China’s population can actually use the official Mandarin in China.

    There will always be a need for a lingua franca and while it could have been Spanish or French, however it was English that came out on top.

    As for native English speakers being monolingual, it does make me laugh. While it is true that they are less likely to learn a second language this is because their governments don't push the need as part of its economic development. However it is a product of English's importance and pervasiveness. My parents of my ex would speak to him and his 4 brothers almost solely in Spanish. However 3 of the 5 would only speak to them in English and none of them have Spanish speaking partners. Not a single one of their 8 children can speak Spanish other than the words for abuela and abuelo. That’s how quick English dominates.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 12:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    “My parents of my ex would speak to him”.......You dated your brother??

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 12:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    I believe learning english is indeed important as it´s obviously a language talked around the world, But imo the same would be learning any other language if it helps your development as a proffesional in your job or symply because you want to. Sometimes we even are asked to learn a second or third language in the proccess of getting a scholarship but that isn´t reduced to english, some ppl even like to get into japanese or Chinese mandarin, German, French, Russian, etc. In my experience for most ppl learning a second, or third language comes from either neccesity or taste for the language or culture imo. :-)

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 12:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    24)The article is about competitiveness as regards to a countries economy…I think if you know English its better yes, but mostly in personal terms… I think a lot of this expansion of English has got to do with the internet, entertainments, music and trending pop culture which Anglo countries are dominant in. That’s why Scandinavians have an American accent when they speak in English and that’s because they watch films and series from the US….
    I think that engineering, technicians, etc are always needed as well as people who can work with their hands. General knowledge of math, chemistry and physics is always important and it is much more important for a country to be competitive nowadays than English in my view

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 01:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    25 I agree , competitiviness isn´t the same as language, the language mostly is a communication tool between ppl one that´s useful because of the context. math, chemistry, economy are by themselves communication tools imo.

    I personally like rock and roll, this was my first contact with english, so agree too pop culture and internet does help the english language to expand.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 01:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Math

    I expected Chile and Mexico to be in a higher position than Brazil. The first one because of better education and the second one because of the better developed tourist sector. Anyway, Spanish is a very important language. I don't get why they make more efforts to learn English than French and Italian people.

    #22 I think English is a better lingua franca because it's easier than any romance language for the rest of the world while it shares a lot of the words with romance languages so it's not much to ask the latin world to speak it instead of a hard language like French. The only thing you gotta hate about English is the accent. Everyone could speak a very good Spanish.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 03:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marcos Alejandro

    6 willi1 ”how high is the level of the englishmen and women in foreign languages?????

    Very high, they speak Polish, Punjabi and Urdu.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 04:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DanyBerger

    “The best ranked according to the EF-EPI is Argentina in position 19 out of sixty countries worldwide”

    And all those proficient in English from Argentina are in Mercopress figure out how important English is in the Americas.

    BTW Spanglish counts? Because at least 2 or 3 are from USAMEX and CANADALATINA posting here in Mercopress.

    If they included these in the statistics at least a little bit of colour will be added in the map for those above mentioned countries.

    @ CabezaDura

    “I think we should learn more in electronics, computing, medicine, engineering and tech”

    It is not that Argentines should learn more in IT, it is just “YOU” who need to learn something about that.

    So that way may be you could distinguish in between what is a manufacture and an Agriculture product.

    Ha ha

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 04:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marcos Alejandro

    29 DanyBerger
    Give Cabeza Dura some credit, he seems to be an expert in American porn.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 04:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    27 well in the american continent you can understand most ppl by learning English if you already speak spanish or portuguese, Europe has more variety of languages.

    tourist industry in Mexico indeed especifically ask ppl working there to at least speak english. I also agree with you, english is generally easier to learn than romance languages or so ppl have told me. Greetings :-)

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 05:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    30).......... Well I’m certainly an expert enough to realize who are ones on the podium of the business


    Nov 14th, 2013 - 05:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    @8 Condorito

    China has the largest number of English speakers than ANY other country in the world! That includes the USA, UK and India (where English is the official language).

    English is the business language and the Chinese have taken that on board with their usual enthusiasm, and I believe that is what the article is getting at. 'Latin America' is trailing behind in international business because of a lack of English speakers.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 08:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0

    @29 Danyboywinmpyburger (walking eagle)

    “So that way may be you could distinguish in between what is a manufacture and an Agriculture product.”

    Latin America's English proficiency ‘very low’ ..........Say no more (please)

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 08:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DanyBerger

    @BLACK CATherine

    And if English is so good for business and essential to do business tell me when are going to learn English in UK?

    Because the bigger economy in Europe is Germany and also is the second rich country in the western world.

    Do you know something about it?

    Say no more (please)....

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 09:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Rufus

    I think the funniest example of English being the language of choice is Belgium.

    Belgium is mostly made up of two distinct ethnic groups, the Flemish (who speak Dutch as a first language) and the Walloons (who speak French as a first language).
    The two groups don't really like each other, and to ask for something from a Walloon in Dutch or from a Fleming in French is considered to be quite insulting.

    As there is no obvious physical difference between the Flemish and the Walloons, no-one can tell by sight which is which. Therefore to avoid causing offence, strangers tend to speak to each other in English.
    As I remember this extends as far as the cinema, generally speaking films will be shown in English, but with both French and Dutch subtitles...

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 10:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 4 CabezaDura

    And how are you going to do that when very few people in SA speak English? India is FULL of young graduates in sciences of both sexes who speak excellent English (it's the OFFICIAL language of the country).

    Spanish is a bastardized language and very inaccurate with regard to the actual meaning of many words. The mechanics of the internal combustion engine are a classic point: try understanding crankshaft, camshaft, main bearing, rod end bearing, big end bearing, etc. Laughable.

    @ 6 willi1

    Why does it matter, we know English (you clearly do not).

    @ 8 Condorito

    With an attitude like that I now know why Chile barely passed the low bar to get INTO the survey.

    “Really? It doesn't seem to be holding China back.” Well of course not, because MORE people in China are learning to speak English than there are native English speakers in England FFS! (ditto line one)

    @ 11 CabezaDura

    Try sorting out an invoice error using FAQs ha, ha, ha. Ever tried using “Live Chat” it’s like pulling teeth because the person typing back to you is usually unable to use the keyboard articulately.

    But no, keep burying your head in the sand or up your arse as you are so fond of telling Monkeymagic, we don’t need the crap that Argentina makes, so don’t improve your English!

    @ 15 Lunatic

    Yes, you demonstrate that each time you attempt an intelligent comment (and fail).

    @ 22 Anglotino

    At last, someone who knows the importance of English.

    BTW, take no notice of the idiot @ 23, he cannot work out for himself that the word starting the sentence should be “The”. As he called Yankeeboy, he’s a dickhead.

    @ 25 CabezaDura

    You are repeating yourself, see @ 4 above.

    @ 27 Math

    I hope your country listens to you on this and it will stay third world forever.

    In conclusion, the best people at English in SA in my (limited) personal knowledge are the Argentines.

    Knock yourselves out all you trolls!

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 12:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yd1982

    If Argentina/Uruguay had been settled by the British (after a more successful outcome to their 1806-07 invasions of Buenos Aires), English would be the native tongue of a very large number of people in those countries, and there'd be somewhat greater English proficiency in the surrounding countries as well!

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 01:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    37) And how are you going to do that when very few people in SA speak English? LOL, INDIA HAS OVER 100 million people and the same proficiency levels than Argentina. There are countries far more successful in that map that don’t speak enough good English as a percentage of their population. What you fail to realize is only a handful of translators and negotiators can do the job, you don’t need most of the population to do English its better for them to know general skills, and learn sciences at school. Having said this I think Argentine levels of English seem to be OK, its other things we must take care of and work on

    But if you want Argentine maids that speak in perfect English than the Mexican ones then you better fucking pay for them. You don’t make a real country out of that…
    Nobody can doubt that France, Italy, China, Chile and Japan are successful and competitive and yet they don’t seem to have the best proficiency levels do they??

    PS: if you think I’m going to take BS from other users and not pay them back with the same coin think again, dickhead.
    You know by now if people are educated and good faith mannered towards me I will answer back, take my time to reply properly or as best as I can

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 01:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

    @danyboywimpyburger (walking eagle)

    Your posts of late are giving clearer indications you are suffering the effects of being classified as a social spastic. Sorry I fear there is no cure.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    39 CabezaDura

    You have just confirmed what I posted. Well done.

    Left to you, nobody else would learn English, or, as they all want to leave SA and go to the States, American.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 02:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    41) I'm sorry but I dont get your point at all...

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 02:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    41 ChrisR

    To use your own argument against Monkeymagic on you: you are in denial that if more of your fellow citizens understood English (or even American) then the whole country would be better off!

    The reson for that of course is that to learn English in a Spanish speaking country YOU FIRST have to be able to speak AND read Spanish WELL and this would sort out the numbnuts from those who can progress in general terms. Surely this HAS to be for the good of the country.

    Mind you, once they learn E or A they will be off on their toes pretty damn quick.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Condorito

    @Chris / Lep
    I am not debating the importance of English in the world or the amount of people who speak it, what I am refuting is the statement in the article:

    “Poor English remains one of the key competitive weaknesses of Latin America”

    This just isn't true.

    My point about China is that, according to this study it has lower English proficiency that Argentina, yet it seems to be doing just fine in business.

    In Latina America, Chile leads is business efficiency and competitive, yet has about the lowest English proficiency.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 03:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    No, I don’t understand what this reference to Monkeymagic is about, he is not even here, perhaps if you answer in the other thread I can follow you better.

    What you keep on failing to understand this is matter of what is useful for the country and what the country really needs!!
    It’s a really, really stupid thing to do export English speaking service employees like Yankee proposed, it’s just American fussiness because they would rather prefer a Argentine one that is cheap but can also understand and speak English rather than the Mexican and central American wet backs that speak very poor English and get to be gardeners, cleaners, bartenders and maids they are accustomed to. And what I mean is that if they still want the argentines instead of the illiterate Mexicans they should pay an eye for them.
    And I wish they all wanted to go over to the United States; unfortunately we have Paraguayans, Bolivians and Peruvians coming over since the 1960’s

    Why would any Argentine girl study in an expensive and private institute that are Cambridge or whatever UK University or governmental organ certified to end being maids and nanny of kids in the US??

    What’s the use of being able communicating if you have nothing to communicate????

    It’s just fussiness all this proficiency levels … How many years did “Veri dificul” Carlitos Tevez play in England…. ??? Give me a break please

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 03:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 45 CabezaDura


    I don’t care for football but I did a lot of work out of Manchester and remember this cretin using his lack of English as an excuse when he drove without licence or insurance the first time. He was banned of course and his lawyer had an interpreter tell him what the consequences would be if he did it again.

    Well, he’s a true argie if nothing else. So here he is coming out of court after attempting to drive AGAIN while banned, no licence and insurance. He claimed the letter did not say “POLICIA” on it. Ha, ha, ha.

    It actually said “Cheshire Constabulary” on it, you couldn’t make this up.

    I just love the diamond earrings (on both ears, you know what that means around Manchester?)

    “Tevez’s solicitor, Gwyn Lewis, said: ‘The whole experience from being arrested to being in the police station to being in court is all completely alien to him and very frightening.” I BET IT WAS!

    Ha, ha, ha. He was frightened of going to prison because he would end up being somebody’s bitch!

    Fortunately for him they allowed him to scamper off to Juventus after paying a fine instead of doing his 250 hours of community service.

    SUCH A SHAME HE NEVER LEARNT ENGLISH. Probably incapable of it in reality.

    The local Magistrate (they are NOT Judges at this level) should have been removed from the role for not jailing him.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    I wonder why Argentinians consider Mexicans to be inferior? Do they not realize they're the same or worse? At least Mexicans work and pay their bills.
    BTW CD, Go to Miami or NYC, Its Rgs vs Brazilians fighting for the bartender, waiter, stripper jobs.
    Sooo many illegal Rgs sooo many.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 04:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    46) But who brought him over to England in the first place?? Did they do so because of his english skills?? That’s the whole point of this discussion

    47) You want to compare the amount of illegal Mexicans that have established themselves in the US vs. the amount of Argentines immigrants in the last 50 years or so??

    What you call “Sooo many” is maybe what?? A couple of thousands?? The others are millions, ohhh and how much does it cost to keep up the border controls along the River Bravo and the rest of the frontier.... I doubt the Mexicans work enough to fit that bill....LOL!!

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 05:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • A_Voice

    I sort of agree with CabezaDura on this...for the general populace it is not necessary to learn English, but for anyone that wants to succeed in International business, it is essential.
    From experience in Germany all most everyone learns basic English at school and if they follow a business career take it further....
    In China ....Western importers also have a person employed that speaks Chinese not because the exporters can't speak English, (they all can) it's that they will rip you off otherwise.
    It's a global market out there and the common language is English, also ...ever listened to what language tour operators use in foreign countries. The guides have so may different nationals to deal with they tend to use English as a ....lingua franca...

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • GeoffWard2

    In my eternal attempt to speak 'proper Brasilian' I find so many colloquial patters are totally untranslatable; even the sense cannot be explained! Frustrating in the extreme.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DanyBerger


    Are you really serious with your example?

    Crankshaft = Cigüeñal
    Camshaft= Arból de levas
    main bearing = bancadas
    rod end bearing (rose joint UK) =Rótulas

    @ A_Voice

    Again how do you explain so that UK only exports $475 billions while Germany exports $1.5 trillions?

    Ukistan is not proficient in English anymore?

    Ha ha

    BTW Spanish version of Mercopress have anyone noted that?

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 07:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • A_Voice

    Fairly easy....they work harder and manufacture more efficiently than the UK...

    Besides all those that are involved in German Exports speak English...
    If you don't believe me pick up the phone and call any German manufacturer speaking English and see what language the reply is in....
    I have called scores and have never had to speak German...

    Are you a different keep up...not only has the Spanish version of Mercopress been noted, but we are all aware that it is teeming with comments and debate...............not.....
    Hardly worth the effort...

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 07:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    48. There are estimated 250K illegal Rgs in Miami alone. To me that is sooo many, too many indeed.

    I signed many a contract in Spanish in Argentina and got into fights with the Rgs every time over the “gray language” I started making them sign English language contracts and we never had a problem.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 07:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 51 DanyBerger

    I thought my example, using the crankshaft train would have told you that the “rod end bearing” was in fact the connecting rod small end or wrist pin bearing end.

    BTW it is not a rose joint it is a Rose joint, designed by Alfred Rose who was a director of his family company, now Baker Perkins. They were originally made in Saxilby in the UK. These are used for steering and linkage movement and have the ability to be self aligning and some are self-adjusting.

    And, yes, I have already posted on it.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 07:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    53) Nearly half a million argentine tourist go over to Miami every year. The actual numbers of Argentine immigrants living there is less than 100.000 originated of the 2002 mass exodus… The ones that are going there nowadays is because they are already hired, have a job is some company or they are buying property because its more profitable to buy in Miami for the same price as you would do in BsAs and get US$ for the rent instead of AR$, I think that since late 2011 you can’t do that so easily now

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Math

    @50 For Brazilians it's a bit hard to understand any language, even Lusitanian Portuguese. It's amazing how reading spanish is easy for Portuguese speakers, but if you have to listen to it you're in trouble. Portuguese people sound Russians tring to speak Portuguese and Spanish sounds very very funny. I'm not tring to offend my neighbors, but they are so loud and fast that they seem chickens. Hahaha :P And Chileans FOR FORK SAKE what the heck are you weón culiaos saying? kjskjakjaksjkajskjs

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    @ yankeeboy -continued-
    There is only about 242.000 Argentines living in the whole US, the 14th latam community in number… One of the richest per capita of that group.

    The Mexicans are over 34 million in the US and they are 64,6% of the 53 million latinos in the US. And they flood your streets with their illegals, and drugs, criminals, make you spend fortunes guarding the border………and of course they don’t speak English as good as the Argentines when they arrive…

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    Maybe you can tell the difference between the different types of Latams but they're all the same to us.

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 10:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    So you refuse to accept the numbers and you through a racist pathetic rant….

    Well I don’t know about that but you, yourself can certainly can tell the difference between them, you know being butt hurt and resentful for over some bonds or some investment that has gone bad I would suppose you do….. LOL!!

    So you got robbed??? Get in line..... dickhead

    Nov 14th, 2013 - 10:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    Yes I know robbery and other general nastiness is common in Argentina, due to the corruption in the very core of your existence and society but you don't have to get so mad about it.
    We have plenty of waiter jobs here if you can afford the plane ticket to Juarez and cross with a Coyote.
    You should bring Toby, my guess is neither one of you will have jobs by next year.

    Nov 15th, 2013 - 12:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    One Word for you yankee ....... D E F A U L T...

    Remember this over 10 years ago??

    As you say............. “Bahahahaha”

    Nov 15th, 2013 - 02:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    Default for whom? It would be impossible for the USA to default since all of our bonds are denominated in our own currency.
    I don't expect for you to understand this since not many of your ilk do.

    Nov 15th, 2013 - 04:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    So....You are still waiting for payment ?? How is the case going in the US courts?? Whats it 2014 or 2015 you are waiting for to be said the same old D word you were told in 2001 ???


    Nov 15th, 2013 - 04:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • GeoffWard2

    yankeeboy (#58)

    'Maybe you can tell the difference between the different types of Latams but they're all the same to us.'

    Perhaps I once thought that all 'black' people were the same.
    There was a time when I thought all 'Chinese' were alike.
    And now I know that 'Indian' restaurants are not run by Indians but by other races.
    Could I identify on sight a North American? Probably ... but only if they were red.

    Get out more; seek out and learn to understand 'difference'.

    Nov 15th, 2013 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    CabezaDura in post 57:

    “The Mexicans are over 34 million in the US and they are 64,6% of the 53 million latinos in the US. And they flood your streets with their illegals, and drugs, criminals, make you spend fortunes guarding the border………and of course they don’t speak English as good as the Argentines when they arrive… ”

    CabezaDura in post 59:
    “So you refuse to accept the numbers and you through a racist pathetic rant….”

    If you can't tell that you were the first to post a racist pathetic rant then you are more deluded than many of us already believe.

    Nov 15th, 2013 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    65) Not at all, but what I can do is tell the difference between giving FACTS & NUMBERS to prove that we Argentines are not the same as Mexicans as Yankee says the opposite, that there is no difference amongst us or at least they (Americans) can’t see it between Argentines and Mexicans... There is a difference between being right or wrong so therefore I provided evidence and fact to back up my case. If that makes me a racist in your PC handicapped mind, then fine go along with it…
    All that I said in that paragraph is factually true and I take responsibility about it...

    But of course even if I had said something racist, you will only call up on me and charge me for it, you biased little turd.

    Nov 15th, 2013 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • A_Voice

    Just a point of note...hands up anyone that can tell the difference between British, Australians, Canadians and US Americans by looking at them....
    I have witnessed US Americans that can't even tell the difference between Yanks and Canadians even after listening to them....

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 12:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext

    Pretty easy to tell the difference between Yanks and Canucks I've always thought - the Canadians are the polite ones. Of course if GSP loses his big fight tomorrow, all bets are off.

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 03:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DanyBerger

    Let see the difference among Americans, Canadians and Mexicans...

    Americans are in North America...
    Canadians are in North America...
    Mexicans are in North America...

    Americans have a large population that speak Latin language like Spanish...
    Canadians have a large population that speak Latin Language like French...
    Mexicans mostly speak Spanish...

    Americans are members of NAFTA
    Canadians are members of NAFTA
    Mexicans are Member of NATA

    American have a president called Obama...
    Canadians have a president called Obama...
    Mexican also have a president called Obama...

    Bloody ‘ell I cannot find any different at all

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 05:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    69) And another thing they have in common……… they all suck at football, and the CONCAF allows them 3 fixed places with a playoff against countries in OCEANIA them to go to each world cup by playing… So there you go, Mexico playing a playoff against New Zealand…. What a joke
    While countries like say Colombia, Ecuador, Chile or Paraguay can fall out of the World cup every time in fact Colombia hast being playing for some time I think....

    We dont like them and they dont like us....

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Casper

    All this fiery debate has made me want to learn enough Spanish to I can post something really clever ( and smug ) on mercopress. en Espanol.

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    I would love to see an Rg play American Football. They cry and fall to the ground writhing when someone's hand brushes against them during a match.

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 01:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • A_Voice

    I can tell the difference.....
    1) The Canadians have even less a sense of humour than the Yanks...
    2) The Canadians have a generic sounding (American Accent) whilst the Yanks have huge regional differences...

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 02:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    @72 yankeeboy

    PMSL ……..!!! Do you really think someone else in the world would a care about a sport that’s only played in the US and that we only get to know about it because of all these cheezy teen high -school American movies and Taylor Swift clips, wearing ridiculous outfits and helmets and always yowling like idiots some stupid strategy code like “Blue” 233 or whatever it is they say ??? Ha hahahaha

    Football is played by kids from the most impoverished villages in Africa to the most fancy schools in Japan. It’s a true world sport; this is out of the question

    We already whoop your arses at rugby for that matter, LOL! Neither protection nor sissy stuff in that sport… Ha haha aha, thanks yankeeboy, you really made my day

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 02:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • agent999

    Wales 40 Argentina 6

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 04:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    I’m not a Rugby fan myself but it’s evident that Argentina is going through an incredible decline since the level of the WC of France in 2007, I don’t think it’s only Phelan’s the responsibility only… There are clearly divisions and personal issues involving the Pumas and the people surrounding them (UAR, former players who are influential still, etc.)

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Condorito

    @ 76 CD
    Argentina was every bit as good in 2011 as in 2007.

    The difference was in the draw. In 2007 Argentina met Scotland in the quarter finals ( a winnable match) in 2011 they met the All Blacks (not a winnable match) in the quarters.

    Argentina's standard is about the same as Scotland / Ireland. Joining the tri-nations was a mistake for Argentina. Getting used to losing is not a good way to raise the level of the game. Argentina in the 6 nations would be much more entertaining and constructive.

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 05:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    In 2007 Argentina beat the host France in the inaugural game, and then again on the 3rd place play off. France had knocked out the AB’s that same year. The Pumas had overcome Scotland and Ireland in that campaign. Argentina came out first of its group

    In 2011 the only ones of renown they defeated was Scotland, the Pumas lost against England, and that was it before facing NZ

    You do have a point in the psychological aspect of the Rugby
    Championship…. The problem with Argentina is also geographical, it’s far better than anything in the Americas (Canada and the US are way behind us and they are the closest of the continent) but I can’t remember what the problem was with playing in Europe instead of the Southern hemisphere at the time, there was some reason…. But this is something that the UAR, the government, Pichot and other big names of Argentine Rugby have being campaigning for a while, and now they’ve got it but it’s not turning quite the way they expected, even the argument of being the boxing sack of the SANZAR countries but evolving over time to be on top of the Europeans is turning out to be bonkers.
    Now the rugby community wants a professional foreign HC from SANZAR, France or the British Isles nations, but I doubt it will change the real and typical organizational and transparency problems that are common in other Argentine sports too.

    Argentina is still very much over the average in the world but it’s clearly not in the elite of world Rugby, (say first 5-6 places that it hoped to be in some 6 years ago that it expected to be in)

    Nov 16th, 2013 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yd1982

    #60: At least robbery's not as bad in Argentina as, say, in Brazil, Venezuela, South Africa, etc. - right? Only as bad as in 1970s New York or what not?

    Nov 17th, 2013 - 02:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura


    I think he lost a lot of money in Argentina and that’s why he is so resentful....Or either he had bonds or invested in something and got screwed or failed, thats only reason I can make up to explain his obsession with the hedgefund case and not debts not being honoured by Argentines

    Nov 17th, 2013 - 03:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    (80) CabezaDura

    .......................................................... and, to make things worst, the poor sod married an Argentinean rubia tarada, bronceada, aburrida...

    Nov 17th, 2013 - 11:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Forgetit86

    How's Britardland's Spanish/Portuguese proficiency?

    Nov 17th, 2013 - 09:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Truth PaTroll

    Oh, the abstruse levels of benightedness from where this mephitic wafting of effete jactitations and obstreperous trumpery whose redolence I now perceive beget nothing but ordure and jejune fescistinism.

    Its simple, languages are easy for Argentines. Argentine Spanish requires more cerebral activation, thus all the others are “simple folk” talk. Nothing secret but merely superior cortical parameters in argentines due to our more complicated language.

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 04:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Casper


    Are you related to Kim Beazley?

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 05:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    Comment removed by the editor.

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 12:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Truth PaTroll

    Being monolingual LEADS to being not only monothematic, but monotasking, and ultimately to brain disease. It has been proven in multiple studies around the world.

    Monolinguals are NOT a majority of the world's population, but are by far the majority in ENGLISH speaking nations.

    These countries just happen to suffer the highest levels of dementia, and early onset Alzheimers in the WORLD.

    In very recent surveys, some insiders of top international companies are increasingly placing resumes of American, British, and Australian job candidates to the BOTTOM of hiring piles. Once source from a multinational in Qatar admitted “it is a not so hidden secret anymore, companies will move to the top of the line those candidates with at least 3 languages.”

    “What is misinterpreted is the reasons behind this. It is not just about the actual language skills, which are quite important, but in a globalized world, understanding the culture and ways of your customers is a crucial edge when in a field of play where the differences between you and the competition are so razor thin. That human element edge is seen as what can possibly and likely put your business over the hump.”

    Also, multilinguals multitasked significantly better, by a margin of several seconds, over a 10 minute period, with no decline in accuracy of output or a fall in customer service.

    In other words, expect unemployment to soar in the English speaking nations in the next 30 years as no one will be seeking to hire them. Not when they can get equally qualified personnel from continental Europe, Russia, Japan, and the flood of professionals that will come out of China and India, that actually can speak more than just one language.

    Informal translating is becoming extremely important also. Monolinguals can't translate anything.

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 01:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Leiard

    What a lot of bullshit!

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    Interesting but I would appreciate if you can provide your sources… Anyway assuming that those studies are true, how come most of human history is monolingual?? People ware not always mad in the old days

    Take a look at the map that is embedded in the top of the article. Analyze it in deteail.... It doesn’t mean a country is going to be successful and competitive having most of the population knowing a couple of languages. But I think we all agree here on this thread that it does help you on a individual aspect.

    Studying math (which I always hated and blocked out before sitting down to do my homework) to get into collage helped me a hell of a lot in the regards you speak of. Though I forget most of the stuff (math related), it makes you more factual, more precise and detailed in many other aspects, it even makes you more objective and fair when you study or do anything else.
    Social sciences like law and teachers are not very good at that.. (Always speaking in general terms of course)

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Truth PaTroll


    “There are some surveys that show that bilingual individuals are valued as employees more than those who speak only one languages and are compensated accordingly.”

    ““Bilingualism’s effects also extend into the twilight years. In a recent study of 44 elderly Spanish-English bilinguals, scientists led by the neuropsychologist Tamar Gollan of the University of California, San Diego, found that individuals with a higher degree of bilingualism — measured through a comparative evaluation of proficiency in each language — were more resistant than others to the onset of dementia and other symptoms of Alzheimer’s disease: the higher the degree of bilingualism, the later the age of onset.”

    “Even in an era of Google Translate and mobile translation apps, hyperpolyglots like Chew -- people who can speak at least six languages, as defined by University College London linguist Richard Hudson -- are increasingly valuable in the business world. Typically, hyperpolyglots have deep fluency in a few languages and are notable for an ability to quickly become proficient in dozens more. Some can pick up a new language in a matter of weeks.

    In previous decades, companies tended to prize native-like fluency in one or two languages, leading hyperpolyglots to turn to academia, diplomacy or religious life to find an outlet for their talents. Today the multilingual Internet and international business market have raised the stakes for getting interactions right with far-flung customers. Enter the staff hyperpolyglot.”

    But sheez, if a guy that learns 10 languages, or FORBES, or prestigious universities say it, it must be BULLSHIT right??!

    Face it, you Anglos are workplace dinosaurs.

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 02:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Leiard

    Also in the same Forbes article “..but I’m not aware of any research study that proves that learning a second language leads directly to higher income.”

    A recent study of “44 elderly Spanish-English bilinguals” ! - that's a large sample! and one study.

    Your quote was “In other words, expect unemployment to soar in the English speaking nations in the next 30 years as no one will be seeking to hire them” and that is the bullshit.

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 04:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • A_Voice

    So.... how is this proficiency in languages working for you? Are you raking the dough in?
    So you speak French..useful for?
    So you speak German..useful for?
    Ah! you speak English...yes sir we have a lot of vacancies for teaching English almost everywhere in the World, including Argentina.....accommodation provided.....when can you start.
    I have a friend from New York, he took a short English teaching course in London a few weeks later he was teaching English in Spain...he couldn't speak a word of Spanish, in the last 4 years he has been teaching English all over the world.
    Great way to see the world and get paid for it.....why not give it a bash.....

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 04:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DanyBerger


    That explains why English stay in long queues in Ukistan waiting to qualify for JSA while Polish are in high demand for jobs there.

    So no to blame Kamoron for high unemployment rate after all...

    It is that just that lazy Britons refuse to study any other language than Cockney.

    Bad news for the Dark Kingdom, bad news...

    But at least they have poverty loans and food lending

    Does anyone heard about this before?

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 04:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • A_Voice

    Hey Dany your queuing pic is.......wait for it............Hong Kong...;-)

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 04:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Truth PaTroll


    And it will, but the full reasons why go beyond monolingual handicaps.

    Quoting from a acquaintance “more and more business find hiring anglos, Ameicans really, and the British less so but still statistically significant, as arrogant, high-risk, low-reward hires, which have difficulty in team work with members of other cultures or languages”.

    I know of someone that works very high in Qatar and says Americans in particular are almost always denied employment if a half -descent option from another country is available. The Americans are considered loud and obnoxious, and basically not malleable.

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 06:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Leiard

    So you admit yourself your rant about monolingual handicaps are not true.

    Quoting from “an” acquaintance and I know someone “that works very high in Qatar”, “if a half -descent”.

    They obviously would not employ you!

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    Leiard I'm glad you can see all the glaring non-sequiturs and logic leaps by Nostrils.

    I've been telling (and proving) he can't argue for almost a year now and he just keeps proving it.

    I certainly love this claim:
    “Being monolingual LEADS to being not only monothematic, but monotasking, and ultimately to brain disease. It has been proven in multiple studies around the world.”

    Multiple studies even.

    Latin America is in trouble then with the majority of the region monolingual. China is probably even worse.

    “Monolinguals are NOT a majority of the world's population”
    Says who?

    He is entertaining though.

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    Argentine get to be called trolls daily, and even I have being harsh on them various times, but one has to admit that they are a leagues more open than the ANTI-ARGENTINES are, you can have clashes with them but next day they move on and dont take things so personally... Double standards here are amazing... better start making things even if people abuse the reporting...If we all are to be hollier than thou act,,, we better be all.

    Nov 18th, 2013 - 10:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    I don't tar all Argentineans with the one brush.

    Nostrils is definitely NOT indicative of the average Argentinean or even very many actually.

    However is prone to exaggeration and to generalisations especially regarding so called 'Anglos' and anyone European.

    The fact that he is racially European doesn't stop him.

    I've met plenty of Argentineans who have moved to Australia either permanently or to study in an bid to escape an incompetent and divisive government. And I'm sure I will love Argentina when I visit.

    However that doesn't mean that I respect your form of government, the facist streak that runs through your body politic or your economic system.

    But I take each individual Argentine as I come across them. All four of them on here so far.

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 12:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    98) Sure love, but why did you have #85 removed??… Is it the first time you come across a world like that here, do you report on all of them regardless of what side they are on?? I have no hard feelings for my part.
    You guys need to cool off. Seriously

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 12:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Truth PaTroll

    Look, bottom line, Anglos are dumb and thus sh!t in learning a 2nd language, much less a 3rd, 4th, or 5th.

    Therefore it is risible to no end that they make fun of so-called “Latin America” for having a low English proficiency.

    Anglos have a nill proficiency!

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 03:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    100) I doubt they teach you in your language academy the meaning of “marca de la gorra”... you have it here ;-)

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 03:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Truth PaTroll

    Remember the gaucho saying, he who sits on the fence ends up getting gored by the bull, mauled by the jaguar, and torn by the wire (“el alambre”).

    Choose a side i this website and be over with it.

    Don't choose the side of the Anglos though.

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 03:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    I have chosen my own side some time ago... ;-)

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 04:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Truth PaTroll

    Another gaucho saying, brothers are inseparable and no other law comes before it, when they struggle with each other they're devoured by outsiders.

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 04:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    But the gaucho Martin Fierro is also free and independent spirited…
    And who is being separated from whom here?? Why should I endorse everything you say??

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 04:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    I didn't have any post removed.

    Enjoy talking to Nostrils. As someone who doesn't hate Argentineans I always find his bile quite juvenile.

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 08:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • GeoffWard2

    I wonder why they didn't check the English proficiency of North America, Africa and Australasia (See map in article).

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 10:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • A_Voice

    ....The road is long with many a winding turn, that leads us to who knows where, who knows when, but I'm strong, strong enough to carry him, ...he ain't heavy, he's my brother....

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 01:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    I just wish the Pro-Argentina side didn't pick up on stupid fights and portraying Argentina into something it is not while pointing fingers at others; they can’t possibly win because facts are not in their side.
    By them doing so it enables the Anti-Argentines to counterattack humiliate and abuse Argentina and them personally.

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 02:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    I won't speak for others, but I am definitely pro-Argentine.

    But at the same time I am strongly anti-Argentine government.

    Some people believe a government embodies the whole of a society. I don't.

    Nov 19th, 2013 - 11:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    Pro-Argentine and anti-government is what I am...

    Nov 20th, 2013 - 12:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    (111) CabezaDura

    You say...:
    “Pro-Argentine and anti-government is what I am...”

    I say...:

    Then I just wish to say that I would wish some Pro-Argentineans didn't pick up on stupid fights and portrayed Argentina into something it is not while pointing fingers at others; they can’t possibly win because facts are not in their side.
    By them doing so it enables the Anti-Argentines to counterattack humiliate and abuse Argentina and them personally.

    Nov 20th, 2013 - 01:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura

    I say if you pick up fights, make sure you can win them.

    Nov 20th, 2013 - 04:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Truth PaTroll

    I don't get it, that is why I DO NOT DISCUSS internal argentine matters in this forum. Because discussing and arguing amonst ourselves (which is fine to do in other forums which are not plagued by foreigners), lets these entities have a free-for-all of talking points to use back AGAINST us.

    The Americans have a saying and I agree with it: “Politics end at the water's edge”.

    Meaning you don't discuss internal affairs with foreigners.

    When you do, it is over. Look at the Americans, they followed their own advice for a long time and it worked. Over the last 10 years they have decided to stop following it (both republicans and democrats), and thus have become the laughing stock of the world.

    Nov 20th, 2013 - 04:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura


    Nov 20th, 2013 - 04:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext


    “Meaning you don't discuss internal affairs with foreigners”.

    American internal politics have been the world's default political debate for decades. The sheer size of the country, it's population, it's power and influence and the intrusiveness, freedom, power and ( at least some of the time ) quality of it's media mean that it's almost impossible to avoid.

    It's hard to remember how beloved the U.S. was in much of the world. If you watch just about any Hollywood movie from the fifties and sixties that's set overseas there is invariably a reference or subtext that acknowledges that relationship.

    Anti-Americanism ( apart from their cold-war antagonists ) really started in American college campuses in the early sixties and spread from there.

    Yes, there is much about the U.S. that provokes mirth - but laughing stock? I often wonder how much we will learn, in coming decades, if China ever opens up, how much their own foibles and eccentricities produce mirth. They have 3x population of the U.S. and some of the antics of their citizens are being reported outside their borders.

    Nov 20th, 2013 - 05:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • GeoffWard2

    Agreed, Heisenberg.
    The USA perceived that its exposure was much more in the world public gaze than anybody else (the inherent problem with an 'open society').

    You only have to see the extreme lengths the USA went to to get UN 'permission' to prosecute their Second Iraq War.
    It compromised a UK prime minister, the people of the UK nations, and it killed people who attempted to bring to the public's attention what was happening.

    Nov 20th, 2013 - 10:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext


    The U.S. military got it's collective butts kicked by it's own media in Vietnam. The degree of access they got was unprecedented. Getting press accreditation in those days was incredibly easy and the military was very accommodating.

    And of course the whole world got to see exactly what they were doing - the little girl running naked from a napalm bombing is the image everyone remembers. They learned from that and were much more restrictive with both of the subsequent Gulf Wars.

    It's too late though, the genie has vacated the bottle for a long time - Snowden's explosion is now engulfing my new government in a fairly serious conflict with Indonesia - keeping secrets is much, much harder and China's turn to writhe in the media spotlight will eventually arrive.

    Nov 20th, 2013 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0

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