MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Foreign Office complains to Spain search of a UK diplomatic bag at the Gibraltar border
The British Government said Spain’s decision to search a UK diplomatic bag at the border with Gibraltar was “a serious infringement” of international diplomatic protocol. In a statement, the Foreign & Commonwealth Office said it had called on the Spanish Government to look into the incident and ensure it was not repeated. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesHad to laugh, Buenos Aires Herald thinks that Gibraltar is an ISLAND, PMSL Have a look at the photo.
Nov 27th, 2013 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This us being built up nicely. Watch out for more a more serious intervention next time Spain invades British territory. Falkland Islands was a serious failure by Foreign Office, they will wish to drive events from now on in. This Spanish Government is really thick.
Nov 27th, 2013 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The bag opening might be an act of provocation by the Spanish or an error, but the statement:
Nov 27th, 2013 - 05:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Diplomatic bags are inviolable”
is certainly not true.
I'm sure most countries search diplomatic bags routinely.
Nope, such 'bags' carry diplomatic immunity. If they were able to be routinely searched then the shipment of limpet mines by the Argentine Government to their Embassy in Spain for use in Operation Algeciras in 1982 may have been thwarted sooner.
Nov 27th, 2013 - 05:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And of course, the Brits are still waiting for a man sized diplomatic box to be sent out of the Ecudorian Embassy in London.
Nov 27th, 2013 - 06:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is it nearly another Christmas? Time for him to climb out onto the balcony again' so his acolytes can serenade him again with another chorus of, “Oh Come Let us Adore Him.”
@4
Nov 27th, 2013 - 06:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe Spain looked the other way on that one.
I know that on entering Chile, diplomats and all there baggage is searched by SAG (servicio de agricultura y ganadería). Famously Helmut Kohl has his sausages confiscated!
Possibly there is a technical difference between a “diplomatic bag” and a “bag carried by a diplomat”.
Does anyone know which it was in the Gibraltar case?
@5
Nov 27th, 2013 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.
Apparently this bag has been crossing the border for the past 20 Years and always been afforded diplomatic status, until now that is. Can not for the life of me think, why is it? that they now chose to say it not a diplomatic pouch Within the meaning of the Vienna Convention. Puzzling that, something must be up!
Nov 27th, 2013 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 05
Nov 27th, 2013 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not even man-sized...remember the Spy in a bag fiasco....
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/13/mi6-spy-dead-bag-locked-himself-gareth-williams
I will say this,
Nov 27th, 2013 - 07:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How long will it be, before the next incident,
I give it until Friday,
And I bet before then their will be another, then another,
?
.
A typical FCO trick. The Governor of Gibraltar, who is NOT A DIPLOMAT, sends to the FCO in London two envelopes, one of them marked, without any legal right, as diplomatic mail. In order to spare some pounds,
Nov 27th, 2013 - 08:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0a) instead of asking for a diplomatic courier, he sends them by a private courier service, which mixes them up with ordinary mail into a big bag;
b) instead of sending them by plane from the Gibraltar airport (BTW built on illegaly occupied Spanis land), and it smells to provocation, the bag is sent through the fence towards the Seville airport. A civil servant in the fence thinks that the bag is somewhat suspicious and he begins to search it.
Then, somebody shouts: “A violation of the Vienna Convention!”, and that is the beginning of the farce. Groucho Marx would have done it much better. And, however, all the British media have swallowed the bait.
(11) olisipo
Nov 27th, 2013 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say...:
“.......the British media have swallowed the bait.”
I say...:
Indeed they have....
And the British politicians were quick to react...
Some Tories want to deport the Spanish ambassador...
Others want to send some ships to La Roca, preferably some with cannons...
I really hope they do ;-)
@ 12
Nov 27th, 2013 - 10:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When the WWII began with the attack against Dantzig (now Gdansk) by Hitler he also said somethng like that. Jawohl, mein Führer, zu Befehl!
I think Olisipo and Think need to do a little research.
Nov 27th, 2013 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ The Governor of Gibraltar, who is NOT A DIPLOMAT”
Yes because that is ALL a diplomatic bag can be used for! LOL Communicatuon between diplomats. LOL. Communication with the home country must be done my mental telepathy if that was the case.
How does CFK communicate with her governments in BsAs when she is overseas? Reads the tea leaves perhaps? Throws some bones? Uses the force?
Think after your current debacle on the museum thread you would have thought you learnt a lesson.
(13) olisipo
Nov 27th, 2013 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please don't misunderstand me...
Not wishing any kind of armed conflict...
Just wishing to see those haughty Neo-Colonial Brits make fools of themselves...
So Gibraltar is a colony?
Nov 27th, 2013 - 10:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stop flirting C C C....
Nov 27th, 2013 - 10:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't know how CFK communicates with her Government when she is abroad. I am sure that she doesn't it through a private courier service which puts in the same bag ordinary mail. I am told that this firm is “G4S”, which perhaps pays some bribe to the governor. What a commedy I would expect that from some Third World country.
Nov 27th, 2013 - 10:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ Think
I didn't understand your irony.
@11
Nov 27th, 2013 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm sure anglophobia is a hugely comforting way of organising your thought process, it must simplify matters enormously. But it does make you gullible.
A diplomatic bag is a diplomatic bag. It's immunity depends neither on its contents, its route, nor courier service that's carrying it. And apparently you've got customs officials on the border who are not only unable to detect 97% of 137 million packets of fags we are supposed to believe are going past under their nose, but apparently don't know what a diplomatic bag is either.
Turnip at (19)
Nov 27th, 2013 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's not Anglphobia...
That's Anglosophy...
@20
Nov 27th, 2013 - 10:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What's in a name? Whatever you call it, it's easy meat for the unscrupulous.
Condorito- SAG will have detected the famous german sausage by the bag going through the Organic Matter Detector Scanner - they will not have opened it themselves - they would though- on the detetcor results- have asked the Germans to open it, remove the offending sausages and hand then over.
Nov 27th, 2013 - 10:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I had overlooked an orange once on a trip back from Montevideo-in my jacket pocket - they spotted that on the scanner and shouted “naranja”-(orange) and I had to hand it over and plead old age! SAG are VERY efficient!
Turnip at (21)
Nov 27th, 2013 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say...:
“Whatever you call it, it's easy meat for the unscrupulous.”
I say...:
............................................... You mean...... the English?
@19 HansNiesund
Nov 27th, 2013 - 11:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Vienna Convention, article 27, 4: “Diplomatic bags must bear visible EXTERNAL marks of their character”
To put two envelopes, one of them ilegally marked as “diplomatic mail”, in a bag of a private courier service full of ordinary mail doesn't convert it in a diplomatic bag. It should be easy to understand it, even for some people in this forum.
No, in fact, I don't mean the English.
Nov 27th, 2013 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Perhaps if you weren't such easy meat, you might have figured that out for yourself?
Oh so now it was “illegal marked” as diplomatic mail according to Olisipo.
Nov 28th, 2013 - 12:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0So then it did “bear visible EXTERNAL marks of their character”?
Hard to keep up. How can something being “illegal marked”.
@22 Islander
Nov 28th, 2013 - 12:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0There is no messing with SAG. An orange to them is a like cell phone strapped to a tube of toothpaste is to a Israeli airport security.
Perhaps you are right, I don't know the protocol, I do know they insist on searching diplomats' baggage. I remember a few year ago (2008 ish) The British embassy in Santiago complained that SAG were going through their diplomatic bags. I read about it in the news at the time, but I can't find anything on the net about it.
IMO if Chile inspects diplomatic correspondence looking for food items, then I would expect the more advanced nations to have ways of knowing what is in the diplomatic bags entering their countries.
“”“”Just wishing to see those haughty Neo-Colonial Brits make fools of themselves...“”“”
Nov 28th, 2013 - 02:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0lol @ Stinko
I think you mean ex-colonial.
Argentina is neo-colonial... UK has no need for “Neo” colonialism, we've been doing it for centuries... took the idea from the Spanish in fact... oddly enough them being your ancestors...
so, really, Argentinas neo-colonialism is just repetition of those damn euros... cant get rid of the bloody can ya? :-0
Somebody stealing a bag?
Nov 28th, 2013 - 05:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0What about stealing a nation?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zhGvId4fcc
@29
Nov 28th, 2013 - 07:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Quite wrong Marcos, are you suggesting we shit on others, by handing over Gibraltar the Falklands?
@24
Nov 28th, 2013 - 09:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0You seem to have reamarkably unflattering view of the competence of the Spanish border authorities. Not only, it appears, are they unable to counter the desperate threat to the Spanish economy posed by the smuggling unemployed of La
Linea, but along comes a typically perfidious Anglo plot and they walk right into it. It seems that they too are easy meat for the unscrupulous.
Normally I'd be inclined to take a more charitable view, myself, but it seems that in this case you might not be entirely wrong. According to the explanation given by the Spanish government to the Brits, the bag was opened by a junior official who didn't know any better. Fortunately the chap in charge noticed in the end, but unfortunately too late to stop a blindingly obvious diplomatic incident. The bag, according to the Brits was clearly marked.
One does wonder, however, just what the junior official thought he was doing, Perhaps he couldn't read? Or maybe hewas just monolingual? Or maybe he thought he had at last the solution to the mystery whereby untold millions of packets of cigarettes are supposedly getting past right under the noses of himself and his colleagues, despite them searching each and every vehicle, bicycle, and individual going in to the Rock as well as coming out?
Probably we'll never know. But i think it's safe to conclude that there does seem to be a problem of training and organisation there on the Spanish side of the border. I don't believe, for example, that it is considered best practice in other customs circle, to devote resources to searching traffic coming in, for contraband coming out. Those of a less charitable nature tban myself might be led to conclude that jerking people around for hurs on end in this manner is less a customs operation than an economic blockade attempting to pass itself off as a customs operation.
But I'm sure any confusion of this nature will be rapidly cleared up as Spain implements the recommendations of the European Commission,
@HansNiesund (31)
Nov 28th, 2013 - 11:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0I suppose that the “Brit” who gave that version of the dialogue with his Spanish counterpart is David Lidington, aka “forked tongue”. The Spanish Foreign Office insists that the envelope from the Governor was inside a unmarked priivate courier bag. It contravenes the Vienna Convention. Spain has obtained assurances from Britain that this kind of incorrect behaviour will cease.
@6, 27 Yes, there is a difference between a “diplomatic bag” and a “bag carried by a diplomat”. Moreover, there is the consideration of what constitutes a “diplomat”. For example, I am aware of a number of diplomatic missions that issue diplomatic identity cards to low-level personnel such as chauffeurs, porters and the like. It doesn't make them “diplomats”, although some of them would like to think so. Only a properly-accredited representative of a foreign government can be considered to be a “diplomat”. In the UK, this is normally determined by consulting the Diplomatic List or, if appropriate, the Foreign & Commonwealth Office. Note that to be “properly-accredited” a diplomat has to have presented their credentials and had them accepted. Technically, a “diplomat” joining a mission who has not presented their credentials are not able to claim diplomatic immunity. Nor does “diplomatic immunity” necessarily extend to prohibited or restricted goods. A “diplomatic bag” is completely different. It is a means by which diplomats communicate with each other and the home government. It IS inviolable. Any border official that doesn't know this should be sacked. I would hope that the British government now responds to Spanish communications in the same way. “Two wrongs may not make a right” but “what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander”.
Nov 28th, 2013 - 11:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0@31 I can assure you that, in British “customs circles”, an envelope addressed as diplomatic mail, even if contained in a bag of ordinary mail, would be accorded proper treatment. It's not difficult to recognise a letter addressed to an official post. For instance, to the “First Minister, HM Government of Gibraltar”.
The Spanish government has admitted there was a complete balls up and have issued unreserved assurances that it will not happen again.
Nov 28th, 2013 - 11:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ ElaineB (34)
Nov 28th, 2013 - 11:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Spanish Foreign Office has reported that Jill Morris, deputy director (Europe) at the FCO, has given assurances to his Spanish counterpart, Ignacio Ybáñez, that henceforward the Governor of Gibraltar will cease his sending of diplomatic mail in unmarked private courier services.
If another “ diplomatic bag” comes across the border I urge the Spanish authorities to open it and throw the contents in the nearest rubbish bin!!
Nov 28th, 2013 - 01:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The current acting governor of Gibraltar IS A DIPLOMAT from the Foreign Office.
Nov 28th, 2013 - 01:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0THe latest is that both governments have agreed ON HOW TO SEND CORRESPONDENCE from Gibraltar to The UK....Is this childish or what!!??
Nov 28th, 2013 - 01:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0With more important issues in Great Britain and Spain we have to put up with this crap!!
@ Aussie sunshine (38)
Nov 28th, 2013 - 02:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Absolutely right. All the fuss came from the hysterical British media, followed by Mr Cameron, Mr Lidington and several MPs who said “Send the Navy!”. Here in Spain almost nobody paid attention to this episode.
@33 Conq
Nov 28th, 2013 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thank you for the clarification.
@32, @39
Nov 28th, 2013 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Quite a remarkable evolution there's been on this issue. First off it was all a dastardly anglo plot, then it wasn't a diplomatic bag at all, then it was the Brits not marking the bag, then it was an unfortunate mistake by a junior blockade operative, and now it's an overreaction by the Brits.
There is some truth, however,in the idea that some MPs, in particular Tory ones, may overreact when messed with, but that's nothing to worry about really, it's what they're for. All part of the pageant. We're quite a long way yet from anything more histrionic, such as for example opening fire on a jet ski, a naval provocation, or setting up an economic blockade.
Will Spain ever grow up? Post-1945 and post-Berlin Wall Europe does not need these petty irredentist posturings. Why doesn't Spain claim the Franche-Comté, Portugal, the Two-Sicilies or all of Latin America? Has it no sense of reality. There is no British overreaction. The Governor of Gibraltar is the Queen's direct representative in Gibraltar and operates under the F&CO. Margallo was spoiling for an excuse as soon as he became Minister and he himself proudly said “hemos producido un incendio importante”.
Nov 28th, 2013 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ HansNiesund (41)
Nov 28th, 2013 - 05:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As usual, you are distorting the facts. It was not a diplomatic bag, but a bag of a private courier service. The acting governor chose a) to put in it two envelopes, one of them unmarked as diplomatic mail, b) not to put the label in the EXTERIOR of the bag as required by the Vienna Convention, and c) to send it by land to the Seville airport instead of using the Gibraltar airport. All these three facts smell very badly to a provocation.
The alleged mistake of a junior operative at the fence is the version of Daniel “Forked Tonge” Lidington. Ms. Jill Morris would beg to differ with you. The British media have reported in a way as jingoistic as usual.
Let me clarify a point. The present acting Governor, Allison MacMillan, comes from the FCO, but, according to section 47 of the Gibraltar Constitution, she has not a diplomatic status. She is simultaneously dependent of the MoD, the FCO, the Ministry of Justice and other HMG departments. She even can (section 34) ”cause a bill (notwihstanding that the bill has not passed by the Parliament) assent thereto in behalf of Her Majesty”.
@43 OnthePisso
Nov 28th, 2013 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You’re not on the same planet as the rest of us, are you.
So there will be a resounding and public denial by the Spanish Gov, of the now public British Gov interpretation of this matter?
Like the denial by the Spanish Gov of an agreement with Argentina over Gib/Falklands, claimed by Timmerman.
I look forward to that.
The language in parliamentary debates is getting stronger, form all side of the house. Next time they will be tabling resolutions which will force the Gov to act.
This is now on the point of getting really shitty, you should realise that, you have no excuse for crying later.
Oh the usual Spanish persecution mania. Vast Anti-Spanish conspiracies.
Nov 28th, 2013 - 06:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The physical concept of a ”diplomatic bag“ is flexible and therefore can take many forms e.g., a cardboard box, briefcase, duffel bag, large suitcase, crate or even a shipping container. It need not be a bag; in fact, no size limit is specified by the convention”.
Official correspondence was in transit through Spain.
@43
Nov 28th, 2013 - 06:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You're obviously not paying attention, since several people have already tried to explain the same thing to you, but let's have another go anyway :
a) You don't need to be a diplomat to use the diplomatic bag
b) The immunity of the diplomatic bag is not a function of the courier who is carrying it. There is no reason whatsoever a private courier cannot be used to transport the diplomatic bag
c) There is no reason whatsoever the diplomatic cannot go out over the land border and through Seville airport. I would imagine, in fact, it's the courier who chose this route, on the grounds that couriers typically have their own logistics systems, hubs, and routes that they use. What with being couriers and all, don't you know.
Whatever, I see we've gone full circle, again, and we now have three hypotheses for what happened:
1) the dastardly Brit hypothesis. Apart from its inherent implausibility, and the absence of any evidence whatsoever to support it, this one would appear to depend on a British Minister telling an easily verifiable lie to Parliament. It would hardly be the first time a politician told a porkie, of course, but it's a rather unlikely Machiavelli that would cook up such a subtle provocation and then leave himself so easily exposed at the end of it. Unlikely, in my view.
2) The Spanish provocation hypothesis. This has the merit of being consistent with the recent pattern of Spanish behaviour, but I find it rather unlikely that the Spanish would make a provocation of this nature where they don;t have a fig leaf to cover themselves with. More likely than hypothesis 1, but still doubtful, in my view.
3) the dumb or over zealous blockade operative hypothesis. This is an interesting one, because it is consistent with all that has been reported, it is consistent with the pattern of Spanish behaviour, and it is consistent with your own view of the competence of the Spanish border authorities.
For these reasons, it's this hypothesis that gets my vote.
@ Mikko (42)
Nov 28th, 2013 - 06:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have misquoted Sr Margallo's words. He didn't say “We have created an important fire”. On September 7 he said at the Congress of Deputies that the throwing by Picardo of 70 concrete blocks to the Bay on July 25 had “unchained that a spark would become in an important fire”. He accused with those words Picardo as the arsonist“
http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2013/09/03/actualidad/1378190732_753388.html
As for the comparison of Gibraltar with the Two-Sicilies, etc, let me quote Arnold Toynbee: ”Gibraltar? Would British like a Russian or Chinese fortress on Lands End or on the Channel islands?”
@47
Nov 28th, 2013 - 07:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I would have thought if we'd signed a treaty 300 years ago ceding Lands End or the Channel Islands, we would either have got it back by now, or we wouldn't be any more bothered about it than we are that Ireland is under Irish sovereignity when it was once under ours.
Speaking of China, by the way, when are you going to enact an economic blockade against them, as the source of the vast amount of counterfeit cigarettes flooding in?
The Channel Islands, that British fortress just off the coast of France, where the Islanders even speak French (of sorts) much of the time.
Nov 28th, 2013 - 07:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Doesn’t seem to bother the French much.
@ HansNiesund (43) and (48)
Nov 28th, 2013 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you serious? To compare the independence of Ireland with the possible existence of a Chinese fortress on Lands End is simply a mockery.
As for your insistence in points which I have not said at all is incomprehensible or rather a way of diverting the issue. The bag was not marked in its exterior, and it was not the property of the British Government, but of a private courier service, which used it for carrying also ordinary mail. As for me, I don't understand the stinginess of the FCO.
@50
Nov 28th, 2013 - 07:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What evidence do you have for the bag not being marked? Have you got a photo of it, maybe?
(Note: it's a common fallacy on these boards, but anglophobia does not in itself constitute evidence. Unfortunately, it's all you've managed to come up with so far)
Why would a legal Chinese settlement on Lands End or indeed anywhere else not be entitled to the same rights as Ireland? Or indeed anyone else?
And since when did an item being carried by a carrier become the property of the carrier? This is an entirely novel legal principle I never heard of before.
I don't understand the Chinese fortress point....
Nov 28th, 2013 - 07:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is a huge Chinese fortress that shares a border with India..called....
A rather large country stuck on the other side of Spain..called Portugal....just a border between the two.
Guess what's at the other end a huge country called France..
A once enemy country stuck on the end of England called Scotland...the English made a Union with it instead of fighting it...
So why is it unusual to have a different country sharing a border with your own?
I would have thought the best thing to do is be friendly with it and maybe have a Union....Oh dear...they do have a Union...don't they...
Toynbee is obviously an Idiot...
@ A_Voice (52)
Nov 28th, 2013 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh, I see. Arnold J. Toynbee, the world famous British historian was an idiot and you are a genious. He, at least, could see the difference betwenn a fortress-cum-smuggling-nest located almost 2,500 kilometres from England and a neighbour country.
@HansNiesund (51)
I have never said anything about that novelty. It is inevitable to think that all it is but a ruse, sending alleged diplomatic mail without the label required by the Vienna Convention.
@53
Nov 28th, 2013 - 08:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I see. So it's geographical proximity that determines sovereignity, rather than law and the rights of the inhabitants?
You hear that ringing sound? It's Morocco on the phone.
53
Nov 28th, 2013 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What's it got to do with England.....British.....is not just Britain....
So....world famous historian means you can't be an idiot?
...what part of an agreement.....FOREVER didn't Toynbee and yourself not understand?
The UK is an island/s ...Spain is not, it has other FOREIGN countries on all it's borders...there is no comparison!
Like I said the guy is an idiot, ....I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm a genius...but thanks for the compliment.....Note the spelling of genius....I did tell you earlier to get a grasp of the English language...didn't I?
Is your Spanish just as bad?
...I don't see anyone asking the US to give up their territories thousands of miles away....one of them being landlocked by Canada ...how strange is that?
How about Hawaii the British Explorer Captain Cook might have something to say about that.....well perhaps not.....they ate him!
@ I am sure that you know very well the difference between Gibraltar and those places what you are trying to introduce in this thread. I wont waste my time explaining them to you. BTW, I had forgotten to comment it, but your mate @A_Voice seems to think that Toynbee is still alive. Would you kindly explain him that this great man died 38 years ago?
Nov 28th, 2013 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I just can't understand how poor and broke Spain can be with Spaniards being so proficient at backflips and acrobatics.
Nov 28th, 2013 - 09:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Aussie sunshine and Olisipo have changed their mind so much on this incident it isn't surprising that the Spanish government has called the UK a liar and gained massive brownie points.
But no! Own goal by Spain.
56
Nov 28th, 2013 - 09:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are still not getting the hang of the English language...are you?
James Cook died over 200 years ago...
.....“the British Explorer Captain Cook might have something to say about that..”
Do you see how that is in the present tense?
It's kind of like humour.....irrelevant whether he is alive or dead....you would need to be more fluent to understand.
Nah! you will never get it.....should I switch to baby talk ...just for you?....because you're worth it!
What's Spain an Indian Giver?.......NO BACKSIES....
Get over it!
@56
Nov 28th, 2013 - 09:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm not quite sure how this works in Spain, but in the UK we are all entitled to disagree with eminent historians, whether dead or alive, and particularly so when they have chosen to make an unsupported value judgement.
You're maybe right about the rest though. There are indeed important differences between Gibraltar and the Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla, in that the latter are border on a mature country with a modern outlook, and are not thereby subject to an economic blockade.
@ Anglotino (57)
Nov 28th, 2013 - 09:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is funny to see how some expats from Down Under try to be 150 per cent Limey. In the real world, most of the Aussies living in their own country remember very well how many problems Britain has created... the Royal Assent and all that jazz.
Despite all the nonsense I've read above, the whole problem boils down to Spain's inability to grow up and behave like a normal country in the 21st century. The combination of an inferiority complex and an unresolved persecution mania plus all the hangups of Francoism have resulted in this extremely infantile approach to foreign relations. Frontiers are the product of history and Gibraltar is no anomaly. You do not violate official state documents in transit from the Queen's representative to wherever they were going (presumably the FO). Margallo is a total air-head. Unfortunately for everyone, this childish tantrum will end up in (a) pointlessly poisoned relations between the UK and Spain, (b) further alienation of the Gibraltarians, sick of being insulted and bullied by Spain, (c) Spain being forced to make the frontier crossing easier and (d) not a chance in hell of Gibraltar becoming Spanish for at least a couple of generations more. By the way, I'm Spanish and live in Madrid and I vote conservative, but this Margallo dickhead has taken us all back to the Franco era, and for those obsessed (as I am not) by Gibraltar he's ensured that Spain will not grab Gibraltar for a very long time, so he's defeated himself by being a loud-mouthed bullyboy. Same goes for the Argentines and the Falklands. Just grow the bloody hell up.
Nov 28th, 2013 - 10:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@HansNiesund (59)
Nov 28th, 2013 - 10:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“An unsupported value judgement”? Please explain that sentence. Where do you find the lack of support? Why is that a “value judgement”? We are writing about Toynbee, not about some unknown person like you.
@A_Voice (60)
Trying to hide you ignorance? Sorry, but you are very, very far from being successful.
@62
Nov 28th, 2013 - 10:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When did Toynbee get to be the fount of all wisdom?
With this statement, he suggests that it's somehow wrong for different cultures to share borders with each other. That's certainly a value judgement, and an extremely curious one from most points of view.
@HansNiesund (63)
Nov 28th, 2013 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Different CULTURES [sharing] borders with each other”? That is a misrepresentation of what Toynbee said. Gibraltar is stll a MILITARY base, where nuclear submarines leaking radioactivity remain on repair during more than a year, instead of sending them to HMNB Clyde.
@Mikko (61)
If you are a Spaniard, or you cannot read Spanish or you have maliciously quoted what Sr Margallo said. You are a very unreliable person.
62
Nov 29th, 2013 - 12:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0”@A_Voice (60)
“Trying to hide you ignorance? Sorry, but you are very, very far from being successful.”
I'm afraid you have lost me, which post are you referring to...post 60 is yourself! Are you you trying to say I'm you?
My ignorance of what?
It's no good just writing English words and hoping that they make sense.
If it was my last post... that was 58, then I can assure you I do indeed know a lot about James Cook.....do you know the natives returned his hands as a sign of respect and they were buried at sea. His Cottage at Great Ayton North Yorkshire was sold dismantled and rebuilt in Melbourne Australia.....blah de blah...
Would you say that Sir Issac Newton was a great man and scientist?.....He was most definitely a genius, but he was also an idiot. his obsession with Alchemy and his search for the Philosopher's Stone (No, not Harry Potter) that turns base metals into gold is ludicrous......
So not all great men can be right all the time...just like Toynbee....or some unknown person like you...;-)))
Still....in a way I am quite successful....in making fun of you....
Comment removed by the editor.
Nov 29th, 2013 - 12:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0Olisipo
Nov 29th, 2013 - 07:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0“It is funny to see how some expats from Down Under try to be 150 per cent Limey”
Expats trying to be limey? Huh? What the hell are you NOW going on about! Wow it is not wonder Spanish foreign policy is a dog's breakfast, seems to be a national trait.
Oh btw, we call them poms not limeys! Wrong former colonies.
“In the real world, most of the Aussies living in their own country remember very well how many problems Britain has created... the Royal Assent and all that jazz.”
Well you just proved that you have no idea about Aussies or Australia for that matter. Problems cause by Britain? Royal Assent? Again, what the hell are you talking about?
@64
Nov 29th, 2013 - 10:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0And I presume in the event of a Spanish Anschluss there wouldn't be a military base any more? No more submarines?
There's an argument you could use, if ever it occurred to you that pissing people off is a poor way of getting them on your side.
@ Anglotino (67)
Nov 29th, 2013 - 11:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0Are you sure that you are a real Aussie? In 1975, the greatest political and constitutional crisis in Australian history erupted when the Governor General, Sir John Kerr, removed the Prime Minister, Ghough Whitlam, from the ALP, and then appointed the opposition leader, Malcolm Fraser, as caretaker PM, after denying the Royal Assent to several Bills.
It was not the first instance of this kind of imperial behaviour, and it was one of the causes which unchained the referendum of November 6, 1999, in which a 45 per cent voted in favour of an Australian Republic.
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~eureka/ozcol.htm
BTW, Aussies use “poms” as a slang name for RECENT immigrants from England and “limeys” for Britons in general, even if they live in the UK.
As for the issue in this thread, it is evident that some Australian expats try to be more Briton than the real ones, defending tooth and nail the colonies whose inhabitants say, like them, that they are 150 per cent Britons.
@ A_Voice (65)
It seems that you are trying to obfuscate the fact that you thought that Arnold Toynbee, the great historian who compared Gibraltar with a possible Russian or Chinese fortress in Lands End, is still alive. Cook or Newton have nothing to do with that belief of yours. So sorry, but you have failed.
@70 Olisipo
Nov 29th, 2013 - 11:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, this was the episode we called 'The Dismissal' resulting in the famous press conference on the steps of Parliament House where Gough called Fraser “Kerr's cur ”. Sir John Kerr was an alcoholic who finished his term in disgrace from which he never recovered. Funnily enough Fraser and Whitlam eventually reconciled and the bitterness of that episode has dissipated. We haven't forgotten though.
Our current Governor-General, who is also the first woman to occupy the post, made a speech last Saturday in which she stated: “one day one girl or boy may even grow up to be our nation's first head of state...” Monarchists have subsequently called for her to resign. They are not amused.
She also announced her support for gay marriage - to which our P.M., who nearly entered the seminary as a young man and has a gay sister, is resolutely opposed. Making this situation even funnier for some of my compatriots is the knowledge that she is the mother-in-law of the leader of the opposition.
On the subject of 'poms' and 'limey's' your information is incorrect - 'limey's' is an exclusively American term which has mostly fallen into disuse. We call the English 'poms' regardless of their proximity to our shores and the use of the term increases exponentially at times like this - when the English cricket team is touring our country.
*67 STILL ON ABOUT “ THE AUSSIE” SLOGAN!!?? shit!! one would think you are the only aussie in THE UNIVERSE!!
Nov 29th, 2013 - 12:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@71
Nov 29th, 2013 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Mate, why do you keep pretending to be Australian? Are you embarrassed or ashamed in some way of your own nation? A private joke of some kind?
What's the story morning glory?
*72 HERE IS ANOTHER ONE WITH ONLY AIR BETWEEN THE EARS!!
Nov 29th, 2013 - 01:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0ONE MORE BLOODY GALAH OUT OF THE WOODWORK!! hAHAHAHAHA
@73
Nov 29th, 2013 - 01:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Lol. I'd rather be a galah than a paddock short of a few 'roo.
:) You sound all psyched out with all that aussie macho lingo!!
Nov 29th, 2013 - 01:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0your turning me on!! are you female?? hahahahaha
@75
Nov 29th, 2013 - 01:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Glad to see you're reverting to lower-case . This is definitely a step in the right direction ( remember Renae Geyer ? ).
Yup the Spanish will continue with their provocations until the Brits really do respond( and they will) then the bleating will begin about how nasty these Brits really are...I really did think that by now the UK would have started to board,search and order into port any and all Spanish fishing vessels found to be in violation of the EU regulations(Trust me that would be almost all their fleet operating in UK waters)..All perfectly legal,and would bring Spanish fishing operations to a halt,THEN listen to the bleating..!!
Nov 29th, 2013 - 02:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0*77 Hey capitano!! do you have an eye patch,pegleg and a parrot on your shoulder????
Dec 01st, 2013 - 01:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!