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Montevideo, July 22nd 2019 - 11:53 UTC
Paraguay has instructed its ambassador in Buenos Aires to collect information on Argentina's plans to set up an uranium processing plant in the northern province of Formosa, neighboring with the land-locked country. Read full article
I thought South America was meant to be a nuclear free zone.
Once again the hypocrisy of Argentina is in full swing.
Can they afford it?
Does this mean the Argies do actually understand the difference between nuclear POWER and WEAPONS. When it comes to Submarines they seem to get very confused.
It seems rather provocative for a country the size of Argentina to plonk the facility right on the border with Paraguay. Is there any good reason or is it just a bargaining chip?
I doubt there is any economic or scientific reason for it. It's usually all politics with Argentina. I don't know why, they're crap at that as well.
Sounds like another trip to the ICJ is on the cards. Paraguay should be contemplating asking the ICJ to require argieland to desist until full information has been made available and then to choose a site at least 250 miles from the Paraguayan border. Or such additional distance as may be required to ensure that the results of any accident are contained within argieland.
These are the people who attempt the destruction of everything situated in the neighbouring countries that they cannot control.
What happened at the pulp mill in Uruguay was despicable and aided by the stupid old commie who is called a president, Pepe La Puke herself (being the old woman that he is).
So, not just effluent test challenges to a pulp mill here of course!
TMBOA really is a divisive old hag.
As if usurping Paraguay's provinces wasn't enough. Next thing you know, they'll be putting up a pulp mill.
Rio Tercero reactor is located on a geological fault line, it has to be removed for sure. I dont know where, but it has to go
This project was discussed several times in the past. The idea is to bring development and investments to one of the poorest areas of the argentine territory.
By bringing this development to Formosa, Chaco, etc, not only the reactor will be built but also engineers, scientists that will need houses and other services.
In addition, these engineers, scientists will be able to teach in public schools and local universities such as happens currently in Tierra del Fuego.
It's basically a good idea to bring important investments, and developements, to the most delayed areas of the country.
Usurping Paraguayan provinces?????.....yes, yes, yes...the same way Argentina usurped the Patagonia !!!......the same as Chile did?...ehhhh...mmmm...no, it's not the case of Chile...simply because Chile is our friend and ally !!!
@9. Cabeza, I presume you refer to the Embalse reactor? Why was it built on a geological fault in the first place?
Ha ha, Paraguay asking for info from Argentina?
IMF has been asking for figures on the RG economy for months with zilch results
The argentine delegates on CARU, a binational commission with Uruguay,refuse to allow publication of the pollution levels in the River Uruguay
One of their squawks is a slight rise in temperature opposite the UPM pulp factory, something now under correction
If they are going to build a PHWR reactor on the international river (Pilcamayo ?) , This will probably require large amounts of fresh water for cooling purposes which will be returned to the river.
Argentina did not consult Uruguay about the siting of either of their two plants at Atucha and that's only 80 kms from our frontier as the caesium 90 wind blows.
Apparently Argentina produces a lot of cobalt radio isotopes as a by product for medical use from their nuclear facilities. One wonders what else is being produced which they aren't telling about.
BTW, what DO they do with their radioactive nuclear waste?
Argentinas nuclear programme is controlled by CNEA (National Atomic Energy Commission in English) who presumably report to the international nuclear watchdog who I suppose does carry out inspections from time to time just as they try to do in Iran.
CANDU reactors for Gods sake! There was a project to build one here during the Lacalle government until it was discovered that they had had serious problems with cracks in the pressure vessels in one or two of the plants in Canada with the result that any nuclear power generation in Uruguay is now banned by law.
The Pilcomayo is a very small river, almost a creek at times. I doubt it would be technically feasible to safely use that stream for power generation.
If the aim is to develop Formosa, they could start by prosecuting those crooks at the provincial govt.
To whomever might be curious about the origin of these provinces, here is an enlightening article: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/442711/War-of-the-Triple-Alliance
You are are arguing with idiots (Uruguay can build on its border, argies can't; Europeans and North Ams can set up trade barriers, argies can't; British can remove citizens from islands that are not theirs, argies can't; Canadians and Australians can take away children and babies from their own citizens, argies can't). Don't fall to their level.
Or do, as I do, but by making it fun like I do.
Take it easy and breathe deeply. Nobody will likely try to understand your comment if you refer to them as idiots.
I'm not arguing with idiots... HansNiesund is not an idot at all...I had several discussions with him (I guess it's him) and some of them were nice and rewarding ones.
I also celebrates that he likes to read and know about Argentine and South American history
The issue is that he hates Agrgentina too much so he usually lose objectivity in his comments.
Your attempts at deflection are lamentable and the balls your fire not only fall short of their target, not enough powder or lead in your pencil perhaps, but fail to produce a ricochet.
Damp little squib are you not?
Tarquinius, my point wasn't about using the Pilcomayo for a hydro facility, but using the water for cooling purposes of a nuclear plant so you emphasise my point. If the stream is so small the greater the heat pollution plus any other unsavoury waste which will be returned to the watercourse.
Thank you for the link. A few errors in it as I have done considerable research into the naval war of the TripleAlliance which is too long to go into on this blog
I wasn't talking about a hydro facility either but I see how my comment might have mislead you. Even for cooling, the Pilcomayo alone wouldn't be advisable as you also point out.
btw, I'm no expert on the Triple Alliance war but it is certainly a topic that interests me. If you have a chance, share some links. Thanks
@17. It's a chapter in a book on naval warfare in South America which I hope to publish this year so I can't give you a link
As the chapter is 2500 words I can't fit it into these blogs and if I reveal my email addy to send it I will be plagued by troll hackers
Fair enough redpoll. I will look out for that book.
It's a chapter in a book on naval warfare in South America which I hope to publish this year
Now that sounds like a book that I would like to read. You will let us know the title and when it is going to come out won't you?
Sounds like it might be worth a read.
I would welcome some intelligent dialogue from our argentine posters on my post at 11 to see what they rally think, leaving out any patriotic defensive bombast
I am not aware of any conflict/complaints from Uruguay regarding the first Atucha plant (when that started I wasn't even born yet). I am worried about Atucha 2 which is supposed to go on line this year. I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) that Atucha I has a safer technology than Atucha 2. Honestly, my biggest concern is not even the technology this second plant is built on but rather the seriousness of the govt. in managing it (does Chernobyl ring any bells?). The CNEA has always been regarded as a very professional organization, still, I fear that under this govt. anything that might have been professional turned to amateur, like the fake economic indicators produced by INDEC.
Anyway, I do believe that we should be good neighbors in the region and agree to the location of controversial economical endevours before hand. It is not like Argentina has no place to build nuclear plants. Future projects could go to the Rio Colorado region, or even in Patagonia, close to the sea near Viedma or Trelew.
Let's leave the Pilcomayo and Bermejo to nature.
I cannot promise you an intelligent dialogue but here I go:
As far as it was published, the CNEA wants to instal what they call a mini reactor, as a part of a testing program for this kind of reactors.
So, I don't know exactly the quantity of water it will need. In addition, I have never heard about it in the border between Argentina and Paraguay.
The idea is to instal it, somewhere in the province of Formosa so, there must be a river, or a lake, with enought water.
The Argentine government don't want to have pulp mills in Uruguay simply because they wanted to have them in Argentina but the investors were clever enought as to avoid this. So, any new situation (such as the ampliation of a mill) in the uruguayan side will be used as an excuse to accuse Uruguay of irresponsible or environmental careless. In addition, it is well known that there are Pulp Mills in the north of Argentina and they are highly contaminating since they are old.
The nuclear waste is deposited in a plant built with this purpose in the Patagonia.
There are regular intepctions for several international instutitions and, also, from Brasil since there is an agreement of mutual control.
All the Argentine Nuclear plantas were built in cooperation with Germany so they are not CANDU. Anyway, CANDU is consider one of the safest programs in the world.
Should make good target practice for the RAF when it kicks off again.
Embalse is CANDU. Also, try googling CANDU Reactor Problems.
There's also a very contaminating paper mill north of Rosario which is never spoken of.
@13, Neutrol Argie Ant eater.....what bilge....so you Trolls complain about possible oil spills in the Falklands, hundreds of km away, but yet you believe Paraguay has to accept a uranium processing plant on their border ????? Is that funny enough for you ??
Thanks pgerman and Cabeza for your considered posts
On the CADU plants cabeza has already given the requisite link on google.
I have nothing against the physics of nuclear power generation,it's just that humans being who they are,make a mess of it, either in faulty design or straight mismanagement
To Chernovyl. Let's add three more. Windscales (UK), Three mile Island (USA) and the latest catastrophe in Japan. In all cases people were lied to about the seriousness of the accidents.
And then there are all the near misses we never heard about
Atucha 1 was attacked and occupied by a terrorist group in 1973 and later by Greenpeace activists on another occasion so security isnt of the best.
I ask Think as an environmentalist what he thinks of nuclear waste being stored in Patagonia.
Chris also for his opinion as an engineer
But please no histrionics from either of them.
This is too important for those antics I think
Atucha 1 must be now over 40 years old and way past it's sell by date
Decommissioning costs of a nuclear plant are horrendous. What plans does Argentina have to deal with that?
the problem, jack, is that britain has already provoked the major disaster in history due to oil spills.
Come, come pgerman, you think it's not objective on my part to observe that Argentina is continually throwing tantrums over the BOTNIA pulp mill on its own border, while simultaneously proposing to site a nuclear installation on the Paraguayan border without apparently consulting or even informing Paraguay? Or that it's somewhat inconsistent to be maintaining a state-induced popular neurosis over a minor police action 2 centuries ago, while quietly holding onto to vast swathes of Paraguayan territory seized by warfare?
It's not Argentina I hate, it's this Peronist mindset.
@ 27 redp0ll
I understand where you are coming from and what you say is absolutely true. PEOPLE lie, especially politicians.
Engineers, certainly this one, do not lie. We DEMAND the truth from everybody who work for us because only the truth does actually work. Building things on lies is doomed to failure.
However, never confuse where we were in 1973 with where we are now. I suspect nobody gets into a nuclear site nowadays just by asking. I certainly did not get into Windscale without very deep checks being made into my past. Fortunately, my Special Branch clearance was still in force.
So, the real problems with nuclear waste are that insufficient work has been carried out into a few alternatives that may provide a solution. Had we not wasted all the money on Global Warming / Climate Change / take your pick next time this bunch of hairdressers and film actors get something wrong / then we may be at an answer by now. Thorium seems to be promising but nobody is throwing enough money and resources at it to get to a solution any time soon. Cold fusion appears to be in there with the holy grail, unobtainable.
But ask yourself a very simple question. What does the world do when the oil runs out, even though it might be in the centuries ahead and what are we doing about it? Presently the answers seem to be “we will deal with it when it happens” and “nothing, it’s not our problem”. At the present time there is nothing to replace oil that works as well or as economically as nuclear.
In the mean time we have the likes of Argentines running reactors with very poor safety records (if we know the truth) and being pompous enough to put nuclear materials on the border of a neighbour without even giving them a heads up.
The plebs though, who cannot understand the science and don’t trust scientists but love politicians will ensure that it results in a FUBAR.
There, no histrionics from me anyway.
@28 Paul...Do not recall which disasters these might be...pls enlighten.
You are right, believe me that I was convinced that the three main reactors were from German developments. And I was not aware of CANDU problems but, as far as I know, the Canadian Nuclear Program in conseder one of the safest. I might be wrong...
In addition, I will check where the waste plant is located. Now, I am doubting of all what I know about the Argentine Program....
It is quite clear that the risk always exists but the advantages of using nuclear centrals is so vital that it is impossible to refuse its usage. It is the most efficient method of generatin electricity and it does not affect the increase of Greenhouse Effect Gases.
I am against the stupid, mafia and arrogant attitude of the Argentine Government to the Pulp Mills in the Uruguayan territory. I guess I was quite clear.
But, Chile got some provinces from Peru and Bolivia, Brasil got some land from Paraguay, Peru got some land from Ecuador and Argentina got some land from Paraguay.....that were really areas under dispute.
So, claiming this now should lead you to support Peru and Bolivia gainst Chile in their claims for lands lost in the war....
Basically, the Argentine governments never wanted to recognize the Paraguayan independence because it was consider a territory of the Provincia Unida del R de La Plata. Since the days of the Independence was a pending issue. Efen General Belgrano was defeated by the Paraguayans when he wanted to recover this area.
The FI issue is different because is a modern dispute, there were meetings between both countries to find a solution, noone of them have ever recognized rights to the other, etc....
No need to wait for us to build another nuclear power plant so the RAF can practice.
I would gladly suggests some other targets that you could bring down with no regrets since you'll be doing us a favor.
The point you are missing, is that whatever Argentina accuses the UK of, Argentina is itself guilty of many, many times over. Fair enough, there is no greater outrage than that of a robber robbed, but there is really no excuse for such an extraordinary lack of self-awareness.
What's even more ironic, is that almost uniquely in its colonial adventures, the UK has no cause for guilt whatsoever in the case of the Falklands, either in 1833, 1982, at any time in the intervening period, or since.
And none of this leads me to support Peru or Bolivia against Chile or anybody else against anybody else. What I support is the structures, legality and processes which the world has evolved since WWII to prevent and neutralise exactly this kind of dispute.
And yet Argentina rejects any role for legality, democracy, or human rights, starts a war and loses, and now wants to pretend that war never happened, while it goes round telling lies to anybody who will listen, and then claims their support afterwards. And all this directed at a peaceful and harmless population of 3000 people.
And most remarkably of all, Argentina still manages to convince itself it's the victim.
Congrats to my fellow posters. This thread is an intelligent debate on topic and with a minimum of shit slinging
But pgerman, the Falklands issue isn't anew dispute. Suggest your read the exhaustive posts on the subject on these threads, but I don't want go off topic at present. You are right to suspect politicos of not being truthful. They will always put a spin on things to maintain themselves in power even if it means lying to the electorate
I think are argentine. Perhaps a few awkward questions to your deputies and senators would not come amiss? If not there is always the Press
Yes we must find alternative sources of electricity.
I have discussed this with Chris on previous threads.
But they have to be secure
I asked Herr Think to comment which apart from a completely off topic swipe about Atucha on another thread he has not done so.
Evidently obeying orders rather than giving an honest opinion from what I assume he believes in
I think you are confusing me for someone else. My previous comment was just an irony. May be not a good one, but an irony at last.
Also, I have not made any such accusations, nor am I playing dumb about the silly attitudes some of my fellow country men fall into (not too mention the hysterical claims made by our very own Lady Cris ...).
I bumped into this forum by accident when looking for Argentinian economic news in the net (yes, you are right, half the local sources are not reliable).
Here is the thing, I have to put up everyday with Ks supporters in the media, in the streets and even in my own building. Go figure what it is like trying to argue with someone that lives out of a public administration job, doing nothing worth mentioning all day, not even showing up at the office but still making more than I do.
So, no need to preach to the choir here.
Sorry, Tarquin that was aimed at my friend pgerman, who I enjoy winding up. Especially when it's all true.
For those interested in the nuclear power debate,take a look at the Brazilian programme at Angra dos Reis. Rather horrifying
@38..you are, unfortunately, 100% correct. Angra is a disaster waiting to happen. Just glad it's 250 miles away from the City of Sao Paulo....
@ 39 Jack Bauer
If there is a true meltdown for whatever reason the 250 miles may not help you, it all depends on which way the wind blows.
And if you doubt that take a look at the Chernobyl fall-out maps.
@40. Correct . A relative of mine had a dairy farm 15 miles windward of Windscales and when visited was told nothing to worry about sir, but do pour your milk down the drain for the next four days
That day London 400 kms away upwind got an entire years dose of radiation in one day
@ 41 redp0ll
If only it were that simple: did the “visitor” tell your relative how many irradiated particles were lying on his grassland and the effective half-life of those particles? AND that his beasts would be irradiated when they ate the grass?
I bet not and for good reason, the management of Windscale are judicious in their use of the truth. I was asked to apply for a senior position in the management there but on the tour and the “getting to know each other” session I soon realised I did not want to get within a 100 miles of it.
In my judgement they were locked into the old governmental way of thinking: like THEY knew best.
Chris, the trolls are going to have a field day on this but I couldn't care a tinkers. The point is that ALL governments lie to us about any problems in nuclear accidents.
That's why I'm extremely wary about the nuclear power generation aspect.
There is much more on Windscales/Calder Hall/ Sellafield, but the trolls can do their own research as I'm sure you did.
@ 43 redp0ll
It does not matter what the trolls think, it happens to be the truth. I realise that is a foreign concept to them and they most probably do not understand the meaning of the irradiated particle or its implications. Anyway their own medical reactor in Australia had such a schoolboy design error I was embarrassed for them, and that’s saying something.
Eventually, everybody who is set against nuclear power will be dragged kicking and screaming into the reality of they either do this or the power system goes off. Windmills are beyond a joke and no serious country will end up with them within the next 25 years – but I won’t be here to see it.
I did have real hopes for nodding donkeys tidal power but once the sea get’s rough the systems so far tried just get ripped off the bed or whatever they are fixed to. Perhaps that will improve with time.
I am glad that my engineering days are now finished except for private work. I could never stand the politicians that I had to deal with and it seems that they have got even worse with the spineless crop we have now.
We seem to be frightened out of our wits and no longer have the visionaries that the UK was once famous for, that’s what happens when the education system gets dumbed down to improve the pass rates and then they go on to Uni to get a degree in “Media studies” or, as I call it “reading the paper”.
Chris @40...You're right...all depends which way the wind blows....might be a good idea to build an underground bunker on some land I've got, quite a bit further south, and then hope the wind blows north, or east, out over the sea.
@44 Australia? Didn't know about that one. Can you please elucidate?
@ 46 redp0ll
I have managed to find you a “soft” review of the problems without any deep science, the link is here:
Reading this I am confident that you will get a measure of the utter frustration felt by the Aussies over the basic cock up which centred around the aluminium-uranium “cages that held the fissionable material.
It was a serious breakdown of these fuel assemblies that posed long term operational and reliability factors that made the Aussies decide to stop the reactor in July 2007 and it took until May 2008 to get back to criticality.
In part this was because the argies (as everybody could have predicted) denied any design errors with their febrile minded fuel rod design. What is not explained here is the locking of the two parts of the cages when they were assembled with the fuel pellets: it was a pressed out tab which was folded over a “goal mouth” pressed part in the corresponding mating half!
The vibrations caused in the assembly by the flow of heavy water effectively destroyed the tags and slots and allowed the fuel assemblies to move out of position in the bottom of the pool. Just what you want!
The argies lost the fuel cage replacement business AND the fuel manufacturing business (to the French), so yet another triumph for The Dark Country.
In my judgement the only thing this reactor can be admired for is the use of 25% enriched U-235, which cannot be used by terrorists against the previous reactor’s use of 95% enriched U-235 which IS weapons grade.
The ANSTO puff about the Prime Minister opening the facility in 2007 says nothing about the multi-million AUSD shut down and redesign that was needed because of the argie design failings. So that’s alright then.
Sheeshmarie, Chris. Have I got this right?
1. Renting sells nuclear fuel rods to Australia which are not only defective in design but in manufacture
2. Argentina denies that. Well they would wouldn't they? And you say all engineers are honest!
3. Because of the shutdown the Aussies lose more than half a million dollars a month. No compensation from Argentina of course.
4. Now these people are going to build a nuclear facility on the Paraguayan frontier. Of course if there is an accident, it will NEVER be Argentinas fault.
5. This makes Argentinas claims about pollution from Botnia about as relevant as a flea peeing in an egg cup.
@ 48 redp0ll
“And you say all engineers are honest!”
In @ 44 I posted “their own medical reactor in Australia had such a schoolboy design error I was embarrassed for them, and that’s saying something.” I think I made it clear that argie “engineers” are NOT Engineers, they most certainly are not up to British Professional Engineering Institute standards.
And clearly their bosses are liars as well.
But the bare-faced cheek of denying any error on their part! And you wonder why I am completely dismissive of the ludicrous claims we see on here regarding satellites, rockets with 250lb warheads but only weigh 500lbs in total, etc. etc. as well as the crap about their nuclear superiority in Argentina!
I thought you would be impressed.
In general, and NOT pointing a finger at you, the term “accident” is a misnomer because there are always reasons why “accidents” happen and usually it comes back to human failure of some form. I prefer to call them “incidents” until it has been proven where the problem lies. Sorry to be so pedantic. :o)
Thanks. Interesting but I don't think I am competent to comment on the more intricate aspects of design
It will be interesting to follow this up from time to time
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