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London concerned Spanish actions against Gibraltar are damaging bilateral relations
The British Government has again voiced public concern that Spanish actions against Gibraltar are damaging its bilateral relationship with Spain. In a response to a parliamentary question in the House of Commons, Europe Minister David Lidington said Britain was keeping its options open on how to respond to Spain. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesSo weak...I sometimes wonder whose side the FCO are on. We dont always have to be nice and try not to offend. The Spanish actions are being offensive so lets meet them with equally offensive actions. For every border incursion by a Spanish boat throw out a Spanish diplomat. We need to impose a cost on the Spanish fo each provocation. We could start excluding Spanish officials from any UK based international conferences or advise UK businesses that the political situation in Spain is hostile and that any investments there are risky. Or if you really wanted to go for the nuclear option start making plans to incorporate Gibratar into the mainland UK. The Spanish govt are bullies and cowards and keeping slapping the UK in the face. I suggest an appropriate diplomatic response is not to keep complaining about it but instead it should be a well timed “knee in the groin” to the Spanish govt.
May 05th, 2014 - 09:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0l agree & l've said harder words than that before.
May 05th, 2014 - 10:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0Wasn't Thatcher's quote along the lines of, “the Dept of Health is for Health, Education is for Education and the Foreign Office is for foreigners”? The problem with not responding to repeated provocation is that that itself sends out a message of weakness. Diplomacy hasn't worked, the EU legal route was as futile as expected and thus leaves only tit-for-tat belligerence. To do less encourages, indeed deserves, further hostility. How many times do we have to learn that lesson before it finally sinks in?
May 05th, 2014 - 11:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0What do you expect when you take a part of another country.
May 05th, 2014 - 11:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0Share sovereignty and be done. Sooner rather than later.
#3 Reminded me of another British prime minister's quote- “The Foreign Office isn't there to do things, it's there to explain why they can't be done”. The fact that the PM in question was Jim Hacker made it no less true. But I suspect the role model the UK is currently following is Neville Chamberlain, and it will end the same way as it did under him.
May 05th, 2014 - 12:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Totally agree with *4.
May 05th, 2014 - 12:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The UK has more at stake with Spain than Gibraltar without a doubt.
4
May 05th, 2014 - 12:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why don't you ask the Chileans or Paraguayans that question?
#4
May 05th, 2014 - 12:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wrong and wrong.
#1&3
There are two reasons that may be behind the inertia of the ConLib British government. It has momentarily moved from the public eye.
1. The EU elections 22nd May.
If this again erupts just before the elections, it strengthens the UKIP vote as it shows that being in the EU has no tangible benefit vis-a vis Spanish bad behaviour. We all saw the effects some months ago when it first kicked off. Brussels EU did the least possible at a deliberate slow pace.
2. señorita Nick Clegg.
@4 Vestige
May 05th, 2014 - 01:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A referendum was held in 2002 to determine whether Gibraltar wanted to share sovereignty or not. 98% voted No. Since Spain's only chance of sharing sovereignty involves getting that number down to 49% one has to wonder how current Spanish tactics are likely to achieve their ends.
The UK can't force anything on a BOT regardless of what you might believe.
Start impounding the ships, tie them up legally for years and they'll get the picture pretty quickly.
May 05th, 2014 - 01:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0UKIP sounds like exactly what the UK needs now.
UK should never have been part of the EU. They think differently and formal integration was never an option. You now have the worst of both. Get out while he getting is still good.
@ 4 Vestige
May 05th, 2014 - 01:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Doesn’t look like Spain can keep sovereignty over Catalunya, much less gain any over Gib.
@6 aussiesunshinee
6-7 million Brit tourists holiday in Spain every year, tourism is one of the few sectors of the Spanish economy that is not DEAD on its knees.
Not to mention British blockable EU funds & aid. Spain being a “begging bowl country”, and all.
There is only ever going to be one winner in this argument.
@ 8 Porto Margaret
Not to mention La Señora Clegg.
Fever keeps going up, and put the patient in a sauna may not be the most promising treatment. Spain wants talking on sovereignty since 1966. Interestingly, it was on that date that Britain began to speak of 'self-determination'. Now, all roads leads to June 8, 1969.
May 05th, 2014 - 02:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0However Spain continues to refuse to discuss sovereignty with Catalunya or Morocco.
May 05th, 2014 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#12
May 05th, 2014 - 02:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, and look how that turned out for Spanish ambitions. Are Spain really going to repeat this failed option? I dare them.
I have said before the younger generation of Gibraltarians need to know the true spite of Spain and why their parents and grandparents don't want to be 'Spanish'.
#13
May 05th, 2014 - 03:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What is happening in Ukraine NOW? does not tell you anything?
Spain has always complied with international law, and in this case Gibraltar remains a non-self-governing territory whose decolonization should be resolved in discussions between Spain and the UK, something established by the Decolonization Committee and the UN General Assembly since 1967 (what a coincidence, right then was when Britain started talking right to self-determination).
Catalonia, Ceuta, Melilla and the Canary Islands are part of the Spanish national territory, and according to the UN Charter should be protected except within a decolonization process or a secession process according to the internal laws of the original state.
@15
May 05th, 2014 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Decolonisation means that the Gibraltarians get to choose what they want. And they don't want to be Spanish, they'd rather be an independent nation than be Spanish.
But they prefer to remain British.
Technically Gibraltar has never been a part of the Kingdom of Spain.
The Moors owned it (and most of Spain) for nearly 700 years. Then Gibraltar became part of the Kingdom of Castile. Then the British and Dutch took it from the Kingdom of Castile in 1704.
And finally in 1713, the then ruler of Spain's dominions signed a treaty granting the British sovereignty of Gibraltar in perpetuity. That means forever. There was a clause that stated that if the British no longer wanted Gibraltar it would revert to their control...
However...Spain broke this treaty almost immediately (invalidating it), and attempt to take Gibraltar by force. They failed. They failed on numerous other occasions to take Gibraltar by force in the last 300 years.
And since we are now in the 21st century, not the 16th century, international law states that the people of Gibraltar have the right to choose for themselves how they wish to be governed and by whom.
Spain has a funny way of going about wooing the Gibraltarians over to their way of thinking. In my experience if you try to threaten people into submission, it only makes them more stubborn.
Instead of constantly attacking Gibraltar, Spain should be trying to build bridges of friendship and trust, with cross border initiatives. Then in time the people of Gibraltar may choose to become a part of Spain.
But the Spanish governments actions are only pushing the Gibraltarians further away, and they're more likely to opt for full independence from the UK, or even opt to become a full part of the UK, than ever opting to join Spain.
And if they choose the 2nd option then Gibraltar will become a full part of the UK and Spain will have lost it's chance forever.
#15
May 05th, 2014 - 03:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Catalonian is asking for a secession process out of the Spain.
Castilian imperialism is the block, for now. The genie is out of the bottle. Castilian Spain is in the sauna and all we need is keep throwing water on to the hot stones.
Spain is not abiding by diplomatic norms. They are not behaving as a NATO and EU partner should. The only way to stop the incursions is to give the Spanish an incentive not to do so.
May 05th, 2014 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That means:
A) arresting the Guardia boats, confiscating them and then imprisoning the personnel in the United Kingdom, just as the Iranians did to the Royal Navy in 2007.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Iranian_seizure_of_Royal_Navy_personnel
and
B) actively support all cessationist groups in Catalonia, Ceuta/Melilla and the Canary Islands with funds, technical support and even arming them!
That might give the Spanish Government pause for thought.
@15 Asdrúbal el Bello
May 05th, 2014 - 04:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0According to Ban-Ki Moon, and the C24 website, the only purpose of the committee is to guide ALL the territories on their list to self-determination.
They have no other function.
Discussions to settle any alleged sovereignty disputes, are completely irrelevant to the decolonisation process, and the committee.
Territories (and people/populations) on the list have the right to self-determination irrespective of any alleged sovereignty claims.
You could put it to the test, join with Argentina in proposing a UNGA resolution calling for, “the UK negotiate sovereignty of Gib & Fl, directly with Spain and Arg respectively”.
That should do it.
Just remember, it was the UNGA that voted to give the Fl Islanders and the Gibs the right to self-determination in the first place, and a long time ago. Even drawing up a list so there could be no mistake about who was included.
And then has confirmed this right in every relevant resolution since. Which anyone who has read them, will know.
Catalonia, Ceuta, Melilla are all disputed territories, where the Spanish view of who owns them, is not the only view.
Oh and don’t forget the Basques.
Frankly, you should be more worried about Spain surviving as an entity at all, never mind trying to annex foreign territory, other EU territory at that.
Fiddle, burn, only Spain not Rome.
The way to shut the Spanish up is to invite them to go to the ICJ over the Isthmus, British Gibraltar's sovereign territorial waters and the Gibraltarian's rights to 'self-determination' and to do this at every and any opportunity until they creep back into their shells.
May 05th, 2014 - 04:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0During WW2, a soldier walking down Whitehall on an errand to deliver a despatch stopped a policeman and asked him 'Excuse me constable, which side is the Foreign Office on?'.
May 05th, 2014 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0'Ours...., I think' said the policeman.
Comment removed by the editor.
May 05th, 2014 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@1 You don't have to “wonder” whose side the FCO is on. The FCO is on the “foreigner's” side. As between one government department and another, I have dealt with them. They are mostly incompetent. They'll break any UK law in the hope that giving foreigners something will result in the foreigners giving the UK something. Never works. Most government departments dealing with foreign governments don't consult with the FCO. You just get weak, namby pamby cowardice. Remember the murder of WPC Yvonne Fletcher by Libyan “embassy” personnel? That was down to the FCO.
May 05th, 2014 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@4 “Take”? You mean “ceded”. Legally. Forever. But at least we can see that the best scot is a shot scot!
@6 On the other hand, following Putin's example, we could take what we want. All the way from Gibraltar to Catalonia!
@12 Not going to happen.
@15 Don't be such an arse. Spain has NEVER complied with international law. Decolonisation, if required, is a matter between Gibraltar and the UK. The Decolonisation Committee and General Assembly are stupid farts and there is no obligation on Gibraltar or the UK to pay any attention to either of them.
Catalonia, Ceuta, Melilla and the Canary Islands are “autonomous” territories are they not? If they are “autonomous” they decide for themselves. Except fascist spain says that's not allowed! And the Partido Popular IS fascist. But it's NOT popular. Go shove your head down a toilet where it belongs. Something may seep in that you could try out as a brain.
Also, the season's starting. Get down to the beach and start setting out those loungers, raking the sand and other things commensurate with your intelligence level.
Just my pennies worth,
May 05th, 2014 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No disrespect to Gibraltar and the FCO,
But if they want nothing to do with Spain, wish to remain British, regardless of the consequences, then we must accept all the crap Spain throws at them, and if that means loss of trade , queues at the border or even closing it then so be it,
But in return Britain and Gibraltar should dish out the same to Spain in retaliation, and sod the consequences,
After all, right or wrong, at this moment in time, it IS the Spanish that are taking the piss, ignoring all the rules and agreements, and the unmighty EU just turn a blind eye,
Its time we together agreed that hardship may well be a consequence of our new actions against Spain, and take what comes,
For when we leave the unmighty EU, this will almost certainly come to a head,
Better to deal with it now, than later,
Just my humble opinion, for what it is worth.
.
@16
May 05th, 2014 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0perfect post...
“In a response to a parliamentary question in the House of Commons, Europe Minister David Lidington said Britain was keeping its options open on how to respond to Spain.”
May 05th, 2014 - 08:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0....and there you have it.....a response to a single Parliamentary question....
When a question is asked in the Commons it has to be answered....
Probably a few resident British business owners badgered one of the UK MP's to bring the matter up.....
The UK obviously doesn't give a crap....“Yawn...yeah we're considering options...NOT..”
...and why should they....Spain doesn't have anything the UK Govt want...there is nothing Spain produces that couldn't be obtained somewhere else in the EU.....
Even the weather.....
So thirty thousand Gibs are having a bit of hassle....doesn't affect the UK.....so it goes on the back-burner....
“We are keeping our options open...next question...”
I am voting UKIP this time round.
May 05th, 2014 - 09:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@4 Vestige: “What do you expect when you take a part of another country.
May 05th, 2014 - 09:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Share sovereignty and be done. Sooner rather than later.”
Wow, you want the Castilian thieves to share sovereignty of the Emirate of Granada with the Muslims...how very reasonable of you.
You'll be demanding the Latins get out of SOUTH America next.
chuckle chuckle
# 26
May 05th, 2014 - 09:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“We are keeping our options open....
Gibraltar has prospered 301 years of Spanish hostility, it will flourish 301 more...
...next question...”
Haha...I was on the right track after all.....
May 05th, 2014 - 10:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not cash for questions...but holidays (and probably cash).....when is the next one..;-))
Here's the guy that asked the question...
The Conservative MP for Romford, Andrew Rosindell, visited Gibraltar in September 2006 and September 2008 on visits paid for by the government of Gibraltar.
The second trip was registered in April 2009 - outside the four-week registration period stipulated in the MPs' code of conduct.
On 16 and 18 October 2006, before the first trip was registered on 31 October, Mr Rosindell asked the following 13 questions relating to Gibraltar, without declaring an interest. The questions were numbered 94307 to 94316, 95257 to 95260, and 95294.
The code of conduct states that MPs who have yet to register an interest ”shall not undertake any action, speech or proceeding of the House (except voting) to which the registration would be relevant, until he or she has notified the Commissioner of that interest”.
After the registration of the first trip, Mr Rosindell asked 23 questions relating to Gibraltar, without declaring an interest. These were question numbers 107482, 124919 to 124924, 124978, 125853, 129733, 139064 to 139073, 145565, 160163 and 160164.
Like I said the UK Govt doesn't care but the MP's...welll they know all the perks...
Later it is then.
May 06th, 2014 - 12:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Closes gate. Back at 4.
Guess where Mr Cameron spent his Easter holidays??
May 06th, 2014 - 03:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0Gibraltar??... NO!!
The Canary Islands in SPAIN!!!! ummmmmm
Thanks Mr Cameron and the 7 million British Visitors to Spain who care very little of Gibraltar.
www.usatoday.com/media/cinematic/gallery/7786115
@32 aussiesunshinee
May 06th, 2014 - 05:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0Do you really expect Gibraltar to accommodate 7 million visitors from the UK?
aussie, whos not an Aussie, is a bit thick, Gordo1
May 06th, 2014 - 10:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0Margallo steps up lobbying in New York ahead of UN sessions
May 06th, 2014 - 11:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0in the clearest indication of the focus being placed by Spain to collapse the stalemate on tripartite talks into a reversion to a bilateral,??
http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=33816
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Spain's colonies in Morocco http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=33816
Or
http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=33816
Two faced or what…..
one day, we may do something, before they stab us all in the back,
and claim we were surprised...
*33 7 million to Gibraltar ..no!!
May 06th, 2014 - 12:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0but ONE CAMERON to Gibraltar would have been welcomed by Mr Picardo....or is that Mr Cameron has seen enough of this individual...ummmm
@26 A_Voice
May 06th, 2014 - 04:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well the Question can always be asked again, during a debate on a motion of “no confidence in the Gov”, for example.
Remind me, when was the last time CFK answered any real questions, never mind in front of a body able to vote her out of a job, at the drop of a hat.
@36 aussiesunshinee
Probably doesn’t want to be accused of “cash for questions”, by Mc Voiceover man.
Let's hope Spain does not see what the morons in Portugal are doing at the moment, otherwise it will be The Land Grab of 2005 all over again.
May 06th, 2014 - 06:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This was the Land grab by local Spanish Mayors and crooked lawyers of British ex pats property that our Best Friend Jim of Madrid had never heard of and accused me of lying. Takes one to know one (not that I am one).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/10810941/British-expats-in-Portugal-face-losing-their-homes.html
@38 ChrisR
May 06th, 2014 - 09:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Its a reinstated law which affects anyone with a property near the water fronts, Portuguese and Expats. Yes, its a way of generating money, but it similar to a ground rent in the UK, you can own or lease the dwelling, but you have to pay the ground rent. Having lived to Portugal for 10 years, this is just another new law to add to all the others they introduce at the drop of a hat.
The problem is with the lack of history in their land registry and the fact that a lot of people 'grabbed' land after the revolution in '74.
A few councils are actually asking for you to go and tell them what land you own and help locate it on their maps so they can start taxing you and get a data base for their land registry. That's what makes the reinstated law so dumb, if there is no centralised record of previous ownership, how can you prove it has been in private ownership. But for all its faults it is still a great place to live.
@ 39 Buzzsaw
May 07th, 2014 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I know exactly how you feel living in Uruguay.
Lovely country with lovely citizens but a stupid communist government who always TAX the solution, not the problem.
Still, we are learning to just let it go over our heads, because we are not going anywhere else either.
Does anyone know how many generations back the squatter “Think” can trace his ancestors in South America?
May 09th, 2014 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
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