MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
US Council of Foreign Affairs supports Argentina, blasts Judge Griesa
The Council on Foreign Relations, one of the most influential private organizations in US Foreign Policy, questioned the US Supreme Court for rejecting Argentina’s appeal in its legal dispute with the so-called vulture funds, saying the ruling will “diminish national sovereignty” and “upend international finance”. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesLook up Felix Salmon.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 05:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0He apparently also discouraged people from donating money to charities after the Japanese earth quake disaster.
Last sentence in the article says it all really, I wonder how much of this article is his opinion and how much is actually the councils.
RGs grasping the straws wherever they find them.
The evolution of law always causes drama.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 05:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0As far as I can see, the world hasn't ended except for Argentina.
Read the second post on this subject.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 06:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0Would seem after all that this article is the opinion of the journalist.
“US Council of Foreign Affairs” - another group of idiots and crooks:
Jun 26th, 2014 - 07:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0let criminal governments go bankrupt whenever they want and let the private creditors go bankrupt, too.
the main thing is to pay the banks and funds and - council members of foreign affairs.
each country can go bankrupt, but let them mention that in their bond contracts and install cacs. people who buy those bonds will never claim.
Felix Salmon has an MA in art history. He has no known qualifications in law, domestic or international, or in economics of any description. Supposedly has has a “background” in mathematics. I wonder what that means. Did he try for a qualification and fail? Or does it mean that he knows that 2 plus 2 equals 5? Or 3? Or that he tells people that they ought to know the answer. I've read his article. It has an argie slant. I wonder how he has the gall to criticise Judge Griesa when he has no appropriate qualifications. Ignore him. He has NO credibility! He's just mouthy and hoping to make a few dollars. Oh, and he's scotch!
Jun 26th, 2014 - 11:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0Apart from the final despicable sentence it looks like parroting the rubbish put out by the Jubilee idiots.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 12:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What is it with the LatAm press?
Critics ‘demand’, ‘blast' their adversaries and ‘come on stage’ to spout their febrile comments to ‘the world’, as if anyone took them seriously or GAF.
@2
Jun 26th, 2014 - 01:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think you will find that your last part of that sentences is only but a wet dream of yours. But at least you have admitted in a circumvented way that you hail Argentina's destruction, when that occurs someday.
But sorry, it's the end of the world for Argentina? Keep dreaming you ozzer fattie.
7. Argentina isn't going to end, as have been saying for a long time, it will look more and more like Bolivia year after year.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 01:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If your going to be as productive as a Bolivian you need to start living like them.
Your seeing the last gasp of the Auto mfgs, they'll be pulling right after hyperinflation starts.
Nostrils
Jun 26th, 2014 - 02:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your Mummy will lose her job.
You will lose your home and Internet
Shortly thereafter, you will lose your despondent overworked Mummy.
I hope you like Tofu - it's made from soy.
They say it can be made to taste like anything.
You better, you're going to be eating a lot of it.
As I have said before, if you take away every way for holders of distressed national bonds to get any relief or repayment except at the whim and will of the borrowing country, it will just make it harder for distressed countries to borrow emergency funds in the first place.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 03:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And this case is not even about sovereign debt! In order for Argentina to sell these bonds in the first place, because they were already proven to be such lousy borrowers, they had to waive sovereign immunity, agree to NY jurisdiction, pledge national assets for security, agree to the equal payment clause etc. So this case is not even about any form of conventional sovereign bonds or debt.
It is about an exceptionally irresponsible borrower whose behavior would ultimately wreck the international bond markets if they were allowed to continue and especially if other countries in financial distress started doing the same things if they see Argentina get away with it.
@10 I agree.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@10
Jun 26th, 2014 - 04:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But Argentina is NOT GETTING away with it! It's going on 20 years now (2 decades) without being able to truly and freely borrow or issue bonds!!!!!
What you and the crony capitalists that post here REALLY want is welfare for the rich. Just like you approve of bail outs for billionaires and corporations, but oppose bailing out average people in debt, so here you are for BAILING OUT rich billionaires and corporations that, as you said, KNEW they were dealing with a bad borrower.
How about them also paying a price for something? But no, to you the lender bears NO responsibility, ever. Which is why you already had a crash in the US and UK in 2008, and it will happen again. The lenders didn't learn their lesson beause they are bailed out every time they fuck up, but the little people screw them muppets. Viva crony capitalism.
@10
Jun 26th, 2014 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina has been getting away with too much and it has to stop somewhere.
As I keep saying, this case is about an exceptionally bad borrower, who makes extensive promises that they clearly have no intention keep, and lie, cheat, trick, and manipulate to get out of it.
What the judge hinted at in this case was that Argentina appears to have put into system an endless series of debt defaults and bond swaps of ever-decreasing value that amounts to a “borrow their way out of debt” Ponzi scheme.
That is unbelievably irresponsible behavior, and if it was to spread and other countries in similar situations started doing it, how would any country in financial distress ever get the funding they need to restructure?
Yes, the 2008 crash in the US and UK was due to loan markets being overextended, and possibly under-regulated, they didn't crash the economies of those countries because there were still mechanisms and institutions in place to prevent an all-out crash like what Argentina is about to experience.
When your whacky leadership over-prints pesos, under-report inflation, impose willy-nilly price controls, and forbid people and companies to trade currency freely, they undermine the foundations of the economy. So when the crash comes, there is nothing to prevent it from truly sinking to the bottom.
@13
Jun 26th, 2014 - 04:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You addressed absolutely none of the points I mentioned. All above emetic verbiage elucidated absolutely nothing useful, except to reinforce your anti-Argentina hatred.
To recap the above empty circumlocution:
Lenders are never at fault
Argentina is evil, deceiving and tricking oh those poor uneducated investment bankers
US and UK mechanisms for preventing total collapse, bailing out the wealthy, is completely acceptable.
Z-ville is exhibit A of the modern Anglo capitalist.
Norman, mummies calling, take her tray up there's a good boy!
Jun 26th, 2014 - 04:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@14
Jun 26th, 2014 - 05:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Anglo”?
And here I thought my occasional spelling mistakes and grammatical error was a dead giveaway on my nationality.
OK, first of all, Argentina IS evil. But not because of your shenanigans on the world financial markets. I get concerned when I read your whacky leadership's language about the Falklands Islanders. Your politicians refer to them as “illegal squatters” and “implanted population” with no rights to be there.
I have only read words like that before in the past history, when it was spoken by various dictators and tyrants about to embark on various genocide or ethnic cleansing campaigns. That is a scary scenario, and the fact that most of the Argentine population seems to support this (which makes it even more scary), sorry, but that is evil in my book.
And yes, deceiving and tricking bankers and lenders is not acceptable. If a country chooses to bail out a large corporation at the expense of the taxpayers in order to save the jobs at that company, that is their right. As long as they don't lie, trick, and deceive the rest of the world about it, what do you care?
Surprise, surprise, judge Griesa has denied the application for the stay.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Funny he denied it right after they sent the U$ to pay the next bond payment.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's never going to happen now
Told ya
A coincidence!
Jun 26th, 2014 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ya think?
Nah.
The combination of arrogance and stupidity is not helping them.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 06:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hope they start seizing LNG shipments Aug 1st. while its still cold.
@19
Jun 26th, 2014 - 06:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They showed up with $$ to pay the other bond holders but not the holdouts. In essence, they acted as if they assumed the judge would issue a stay before the ruling. Being presumptuous against a judge is probably the best way to get him to rule against, I think...
Or maybe the extra $$ was just to pay their shopping and dining in NY. I assume their credit cards are no good anymore...
I think they did it to say “look we tried to pay but the big bad US Courts took our money”
Jun 26th, 2014 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A whole country plagued with arrested development and a dash of delusion for good measure.
I wonder if the water is tainted?
@21 Government officials and daughters of the President always have plenty of cash. Can you believe CFK boasted to the nation about her daughter's spending spree in NY recently?
Jun 26th, 2014 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0““The consequences are certain to be dreadful for Argentina.”
Jun 26th, 2014 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Does this paper question why the govt. of Argentina put its people in this position?
Or is it just Justice Griesa and the SCOTUS that clearly caused this problem?
I think the CFK administration is responsible for this dilemma. Unasur, and the Obama administration, and the IMF and France, and Germany, and this “most influential private organization”, and this Felix Salmond genius, should only be condemning Argentina, the cause of this “terrible” problem.
Criticizing the U.S. courts is just an unproductive distraction. It's nice that these groups want to save the world but they just don't have enough brains to do anything but keep the world from moving forward.
You got to hand it to them, they hold a press conference to show that they have paid the US$ 1b to the restructured bond holders and, in the same breath condemn judge Griesa for bias.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Where we're they when the brains were being handed out?
At the back of the queue would be my guess.
@23
Jun 26th, 2014 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Nothing like flaunting your arrogance in the face of your own (apparently clueless) population, all the while telling them they can't have $ to go anywhere or buy anything.
I've heard of a word for this: Chutzpah.
Seems to apply...
I wonder if Think will comment on the MERVAL today?
Jun 26th, 2014 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0snicker
I won't be holding my breath
They just can not resist having a pop can they?
Jun 26th, 2014 - 07:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They sound earnest even mature and then bam!
Got to have the last word and it has to be derogatory.
Classic inferiority complex.
“The consequences are certain to be dreadful for Argentina.”
Jun 26th, 2014 - 08:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0While it will be a tough time for Argentinians, their suffering will clear the political air. Kirchnerism/Chavism will be shot a necessary and fatal blow. Argentina will have a chance to save itself from itself.
This time, Argentinians will remember.
@ 29 pisco
Jun 26th, 2014 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“This time, Argentinians will remember.”
But only for 12 years, it seems.
Some grease ball Rg pol said that the Griesa is in a bind because if he doesn't allow payment to be made from Mellon then Mellon is in default of their agreement and bonds can be paid from BA.
Jun 26th, 2014 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0These people are stupid enough to think they're smarter than Griesa
Argentina will probably be held in contempt of court.
'You addressed absolutely none of the points I mentioned.'
Jun 26th, 2014 - 10:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0TTT just levelled that accusation at someone. FFS PMSL!!!
@32
Jun 26th, 2014 - 11:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0...and he also accused me of being “Anglo”...I'm not offended, but also not sure what he thinks that is.
Given that his whacky leadership manages to offend the judge every time someone sticks a microphone in their face, I am not surprised...
@31 Looks like CFK wants Argentina to be held in contempt of court to cry default and go to international courts where it feels if might have an edge since there are other countries interested in helping us (well, maybe). Looks like she wants to take this to the very end. Anything to avoid paying 100 more billion of debt...
Jun 26th, 2014 - 11:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 033Z-ville
Jun 26th, 2014 - 11:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He's just a very confused and frustrated young man who actually probably means well but can't believe people from outside of his own country view his fellow citizens in the way they do. Not that we all view all of their citizens in a bad light. Only a few view only a few of them that way but he takes it to heart.
I wish bad things on his horrendous Government but not the people of Argentina in general. I also recall from early on, before he discovered that people on here hated the Argentines on here (quite clearly only because of their view on the Falklands but he can't reconcile that), he used to openly admit that he hates his Government.
Go easy on him; he's not much more than a kid with a lot on his plate.
@35
Jun 27th, 2014 - 12:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0No worries, I'm not easily offended. Besides, the guy is willing to defend and argue his views, and that is always something to respect.
I do not wish bad on anyone, but at the same time a country's government is to a large extent the reflection of its people. I briefly visited BA back in '96 on my way from Brazil, but that is my only experience of Argentina...
34. International Courts have no jurisdiction. This is a well established NY state contract law.
Jun 27th, 2014 - 01:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Does she seriously think Griesa cares about the opinions of foreign countries?
You have some really stupid slimeballs running your country into the ground.
34.
Jun 27th, 2014 - 01:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yep, I started to think of that after Kicillof said today that Argentina will hold Griesa and the United States accountable for the decisions of its Justice system and its financial laws bla bla bla In reality Obama did all that was in his legal power to help the Ks. I guess they will take the US to The Hague (¿?)
They will keep on fighting an imaginary war for the K revolution in the international courts while the country falls further into the abyss. Ever more looking like North Korea or Cuba.
Unlike in Argentina, US courts are independent from the politicians and can't be manipulated like they seem to think. Having a functional, independent court system leads to stability and predictability. People just claim the opposite when the court rulings go against them...
Jun 27th, 2014 - 01:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Good to know that a genius like Felix Salmon knows the law better than the US Supreme Court - why doesn't he give them a Law101 course, the blattermouth?
Jun 27th, 2014 - 01:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0@16
Jun 27th, 2014 - 02:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are evil, given the response you just provided.
“deceiving bankers and lenders”
So what you are saying is that they are imbecilic MORONIC fools. Nice to know.
Notice how it's the third time I press you on it and still have not said a peep about whether if lenders bear any responsibility. You are evil indeed for your ideology.
An ideology where rich people can screw poor people, and then blame the poor people for it. The banks can lend willy-nilly to credulous people with little financial education, get them in trouble by offering them too much money, and when the poor succumb it's entirely the poor man's fault, not the bank.
How nice of you. THAT is evil.
2nd, you are an anglo. Look what you have done to Iraq. That is evil.
Look at what you did in Chagos Islands. Not rhetoric about “ethnic cleansing”, ACTUAL ethnic cleansing. That is evil.
You are evil in every aspect of your mere existence. You are Anglo.
@41
Jun 27th, 2014 - 03:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0Oh wow, did your mom forget to lock the door to the computer room again?
I trust from your comments that “Anglo” is to be interpreted as an insult, not as a demographic term. If so, that's OK, because I don't think otherwise that I would qualify to be called “Anglo”...
Now, what have we done to Iraq? Good question actually, since I'm pretty sure no one from my country went there...
Chagos Islands - Never heard of the place. Not sure anyone from my country has been there either. I'll check into to it though, just to be sure.
So, to your question then: Do lenders bear any responsibility for loaning money to people who can't pay it back? Well, technically, only if they break the terms of the loan, but that is really never what the debate is about, is it? It is the borrower who breaks the terms..
OK, so what about cases where the bank clearly should not have loaned out any money? Let us look at the mortgage problems in the US then, shall we? Back in the '80s there was legislation passed called Equal Housing Opportunity, among others. The law required banks to lend mortgages to poor people who otherwise could not afford them, all in the name of equal rights. And yes, as anyone could have predicted, those poor people eventually could not afford to pay the mortgage, and the crisis rolled in. BUT IT WAS THE LAWS AND REGULATIONS THAT FORCED THIS TO HAPPEN, NOT THE LENDERS!
So be careful when you blame the evil lenders for messes they didn't cause to happen...
@42
Jun 27th, 2014 - 03:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0You don't know about Chagos? Well, why wouldn't you? Are you uneducated?
Or pretending not to be Anglo?
I finished reading the other thread and you claim to be from “Sweden”. Really, for some reason, many people here in the past have claimed to be from there, only to be proven to be Anglos.
But if you really are, then that really would cogently explain you away. One must only look back at what occurred in Sweden in 1991-1992 and your love for the all mighty banker is a case solved.
@43
Jun 27th, 2014 - 04:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well, if “Anglo” is just an insult and not a demographic term, then yes, I can see people from Sweden get accused of being “Anglo”.
But I know very well what happened in Sweden in '92. But before I get into the technical details, allow me to remind you that the reason the bank and interest crisis in Sweden in '92 didn't sink the country is precisely what I have harped on before. We had institutions and mechanisms in place to absorb the blow and allow our economy to keep going. Your country on the other hand is destroying those safety mechanisms. When your collapse comes, nothing will stop it from crashing through the floor...
OK, so what happened in Sweden in' 92, then?
The banks were over-extended on loans, and undercapitalized. Low interest rates had driven up loans especially for real estate, and caused the country to lose dollars at an alarming rate, because they foolishly tried to maintain a fixed exchange rate to foreign currency.
So, the government decided to prevent further losses to the currency reserves, let the Crown float, and set the interest rate sky high. This in turn caused several banks to fail. The government had to step in with money and many banks became nationalized in the process.
So, the government essentially decided to screw the banks in order to save the system. It paid off and the banks could be re-privatized to recover most of the emergency funding that had to be paid out.
This was not for love or hate of the banks, only from properly understanding what function a bank has in the economy.
Let's compare that to your country: To preserve central bank reserves, your country forbids you to buy or hold foreign currency. That damages the system rather than save it.
Your country is over-printing pesos to pay for government hand-outs instead of trying to balance the government spending. That damages the system.
So if you do not trust the banks, what do you do with your money then...?
42 Z- ville
Jun 27th, 2014 - 04:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Chagos Islands - Never heard of the place. Not sure anyone from my country has been there either. I'll check into to it though, just to be sure.”
Z,
Don't worry about the Chagos - Nostrils troys it out whenever he runs out of arguments.
He means to contrast/compare it to the Falklands situation - it is supposed to be a derogatory reference to shame the Brits.
It refers to the 1970's and is properly resolved.
The UK brought in migrant workers from SE Asia to work in the previously uninhabited Islands, owned by the UK.
After a generation or so, the population was expelled because the UK was leasing the Islands to the US Military to be used as an airbase.
The workers were removed and sent to Mauritius, and compensation/resettling expenses paid to the Mauritius government on their behalf.
The money was pocketed by the government.
The displaced workers sued the UK for being expelled.
The UK refused to return them as :
- the Islands were leased
- there was no work for them there
- the was no supply of drinking water, except what the UK would have to import.
The displaced population was monetarily compensated, directly.
For monetary gain and propaganda purposes, the Argies and “Chagosians” ask for compensation and “repatriation” to their “homeland”.
Pretty straight forward, this has been refuted in MercoPress and elsewhere, repeatedly - a charade and cause célèbre, visited again and again
- yawn
So you devalued your way out partly huh? Yankeeboy will get mad at you!
Jun 27th, 2014 - 04:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0I have no interest in foreign currency as I will never permit my money to help support foreign banking systems. Trusting a bank with your money is like trusting a gambler with your credit card.
Z-ville
Jun 27th, 2014 - 05:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0- remember, these words of wisdom @46, come from a teenager in Argentina, with Aspergers Syndrome, who never leaves his parents home.
Be gentle - save your effort for the La Campora, Government Trolls.
I'm sure you know that La Campora is the government's league of disaffected youth who suckle off the public tit and perpetuate all the gov't propaganda.
It is run by Maximo Kirchener, CFK's son.
Enrique Alvarez 1 hour ago
Jun 27th, 2014 - 05:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0A funds are called “vultures” because they bought a cheap debt and now want to charge dearly. How then must call nestor and cristina, who made his fortune buying two houses handles the poor who could not pay his debts, leaving them on the street? The “vulture” cristina.
@ Toby
Jun 27th, 2014 - 06:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Have you ever considered joining Comando Sabino Navarrro??
Not sure about all this. US Courts do not provide me with an awful lot of confidence especially given their recent decision to legalise fraud by US citizens against BP.
Jun 27th, 2014 - 06:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0Any nation including Argentina needs the ability to protect itself and it's people against financial ruin.
And what exactly will be achieved by forcing Argentina into default, what will be the consequences for the rest of SA and the World. The US may also regret any unfortunate precedents that might be set here.
Hang on a mo!
Jun 27th, 2014 - 08:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina chose of their own free will to issue these bonds under US law.
Are you saying that economics comes above law?
If Argentina defaults, it's because of it's own mismanagement, no one else to blame.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The real victims in this are those bond holders who have lost as much as 75% of their investment.
Please no false praise for the Argentines who deign to pay back a mere 25% and constantly seek praise for even doing that.
As for regretting setting a precedent, a judge rules on the facts in issue, not on what ifs!
Toby, it is okay to use currency as a means to juice the economy, in small doses and for a short term. You can not and never have been able to devalue your way to prosperity.
Jun 27th, 2014 - 10:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina has used its peso/austral or the other XX currencies you've had in the last century to make up for the low productivity of your workers. I think Argentina has had more currencies than any other country in the world. Nobody has faith in any RG currency because they all eventually become worthless.
The Ks have done something that is extremely hard to do, put a country into a recession and have very high inflation. Its hard to accomplish that! It can only be done with very bad economic policies.
There is only 1 way out for your country.
It must crash and reestablish the system.
Right now the path is, default, devalue, hyperinflation, crash.
Just like it has been the 35 other times you defaulted.
Except this time there is nobody to bail you out. The USA doesn't need anything from Argentina and you no longer represent stability in South America. You're out of status at the IMF. They can't loan even if they wanted to.
You have a few U$B in cash, when that goes there's nothing left and no way to get more. Funny thing is, a year or two ago nobody was worried about the 2014 cash flow but they were worried about 2015. That's a bad year for Argentina lots and lot so payments due.
So let's see where this comes out. I laid all of this out for you long ago and I hope you took my advice so you don't starve.
@12. Oh dear. Argieland screwed loads of “little people”. That's the way the scam was designed. The billionaires and corporations would know better. Of course, even the “little people” knew that argieland was and is crap at paying. But I guess they thought that if the bonds were being issued under New York law and argieland was giving up sovereign immunity, where was the danger? Little did they know that argieland would be so corrupt and criminal as to issue an ultimatum rather than negotiate. Did argieland care? Of course not. Led by criminal Kirchner, where was the reduction in argie public expenditure? Based on what they've written here, I've come across 2 or 3 honest Argentines. But argies in general are thieving scum. Even NOW argieland can't even be bothered to comply with a court order.
Jun 27th, 2014 - 01:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@14 Brain-dead!
@29 Doubtful. If you don't already know the term, look up “viveza criolla”. Although they have a different name for it, Brazilians are much the same.
@41 Straight in with both feet. I repeat, lots of “little people” were lenders and argieland screwed them. As for Iraq, not our problem. We got rid of the immediate problem. Chagos Islands. Still there as far as I know.
@45 Correction. To the best of my knowledge, the UK never brought in any migrant workers. The French did. The Mauritians did.
@46
Jun 27th, 2014 - 01:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So you do not trust your banks? And don't see why that is a problem for your economy?
Banks fill a function to pump money through the economy. If you don't trust the banks, your economy will grind to a halt. Pouring more pesos on that is like pouring water on a drowning person.
The whole point of the convulsion in Sweden in '92 was to PRESERVE the people's trust in the banking system...
Tic toc
Jun 28th, 2014 - 08:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
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