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Brazilian Jewish community apologizes to President Rousseff's administration

Monday, July 28th 2014 - 07:43 UTC
Full article 129 comments

Brazil’s Jewish community apologized to the administration of Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff for statements by the spokesman of Israel’s foreign ministry after Brazil recalled its envoy over the Gaza conflict. Read full article

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  • Brasileiro

    If we are dwarves because you care about what we say?

    Israel is a cancer deployed by the United States. Israel must be destroyed!

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    Brazil: always doing the wrong thing at the wrong time.

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 04:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    I like the way the Netanyahu administration treats the Brazilian and Argentine governments… The exact way they should be treated. Its about time the international community take notice.

    Didn’t that fat ugly beattlejuice face Dilma Roussef just headed the BRICS summit with CHINA AND BRAZIL… What did Itamaraty say about the Russian backed Syrian government bombings of Aleppo and Homs by the Assad air force or the gassing of civilians in opposition held neighborhoods of Damascus a year ago??

    What did Dilma’s and Cristina’s govt say to the Chinese premier about the lack of human rights in China the genocides against minorities in Xinjiang and Tibet??
    And what about the racist anti-white gov’t of the ANC and its manslaughter of miners??

    Israel is correct Brazil is a diplomatic dwarf, it never helped Colombia in its war against the FARC, it doesn’t bolster an equivalent of the DEA against drug trafficking in the region.

    Go ahead Israel !!
    Its about time that the democracies of the world should claim the moral up ground they deserve and make no more apologies to the dictators and failed states that make the majority of the UN
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIRJO9TaaOI

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 05:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • inthegutter

    #1 The state of Israel was founded legally by a vote of the United General Assembly, a vote in which Brazil voted Yes (and the UK abstained).

    “Israel must be destroyed!” it's this type of pathetic sentiment which has kept the Israeli-Arab conflict burning for so long, truly pathetic. Perhaps if Hamas decided to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and focus on defining a future Palestinian state things might be better.

    In my view, both sides are equally guilty in this conflict but sentiments like “Israel must be destroyed!” just make it worse. Still, not really surprising from you.

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    “'diplomatic dwarf” and politically irrelevant”....Israel couldn't have described Brazil better.....and to apologize, was wrong. Brazil has a record of sitting on the fence, never taking sides, in other words, irrelevant. And, especially during the past 11 years, with the PT as the ruling party, this farce has only gotten worse, with Brazil sucking up to all the wannabe dictators of the world, while at the UN, always voting against - when not sitting on the fence - the true 'western' democracies...
    One day, they'll come to regret their stupid, short-sighted foreign policies.

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    5. It was simply the Jewish community in Brazil that apologized to the gov’tnot Israel , but it is a mistake none the less I agree.

    Argentina after making a complete idiot of herself cuddling up to Iran in 2013,selling its dead away to the Iranians and gained absolutely nothing in returned decided to mend up relations with Israel earlier this year by buying the used Kfirs and now just yet another spat with Israel in the last few days. They just can’t help talk their leftist-pro Arabian bile

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    The snide remark by Israel's Mr. Palmor was very undiplomatic, but perhaps best describes the disgust the nation feels right now with rockets being fired at them from the Gaza Strip.

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 06:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    The diplomatic dwarves are those who are failing to take a stand. What Netanyahu is peddling is the biggest load of horseshit since the invasion of Iraq or indeed the Argentine claim to the Falklands.

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 08:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    CD2@6 ; I'm aware that is was Brazil's Jewish Community and not Israel that apologized....just didn't make it clear enough.. but by any standard, it's about time the (serious) international community started shunning countries that think they can go through history being farts on a curtain rail.

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 08:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Lagow

    'diplomatic dwarf” and politically irrelevant”....
    Its so funny and yet so true. Israel 7-0 Brasil LOL

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 09:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ilsen

    This did make me chuckle at first. The Israeli attitude of “you might be a big cheese on your continent but you don't count for shit on the World Stage”
    lol!

    I have no intention of entering into a debate on the background matter.

    However, I really appreciated @4's measured and intelligent response to @1.

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 11:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Comment removed by the editor.

    Jul 28th, 2014 - 11:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    8. Care to explain why or you are just a typical British PC muslim/neggar lover ??

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 01:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Hepatia

    The problem is that the Israeli government is an embarrassment to Jews all over the world.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 02:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Alistair Nigel (EUian)

    Comment removed by the editor.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 02:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    14.
    The Jews owe first allegiance to whatever country they live in, they are not Israelis. So the Jewish community in Brazil is not in his place.
    The Israeli gov’t owes its allegiance to the Israeli people alone.
    Israel a country of 7 million lives with surrounded by countries that total over 120 million that follows a religion that doesn’t tolerate its existence in either of its two most important variants. Jews all over the world don’t life with this menace.

    In my experience Jews in Argentina in my business life, my ex (she was half Italian half Jewish) and notorious ones like Timerman, Verbitsky, Sofovich, Winograd, Kiciloff and so many others have no morals they are just regular Argentine, but the Israelis I met those are of a completely different moral fiber.

    15. The Chinese version was funnier at least... Pfffff

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 02:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Alistair Nigel (EUian)

    Why don't you answer the point?

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 02:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Because it’s not even a point, I don’t even read your post anymore if they are long I simply browse over them.

    My post in #3 is about Israel- Palestine conflict… And the hypocrite government of Brazil and Argentina… Not about UK, US, EU.

    Brazil and all the good for nothing failed state and dictator country voters in the UN can go and f(/ck themselves... Pat Condell is right.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHC8KC5cLs8

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 02:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Alistair Nigel (EUian)

    @18

    Again, how do you want Brazil to take stands on same level as EU, US, etc, when it is not allowed to possess the weapons they own?

    Basically, if you and me are in a dark alley with two criminals, and the criminals have guns and I have a gun, and you have a hair curler and a balloon with a few peas, and we are all asked to take a stand, you would take a stand just like the rest of us?

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 03:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    19.

    “Israel's Foreign ministry Yigal Palmor called Brazil a 'diplomatic dwarf” and politically irrelevant” And he is right... What has the EU, US got to do with this ???

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 03:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Alistair Nigel (EUian)

    Are you playing that you have no brain?

    The EU and US have weapons to defend themselves from terrorist that may attack them by siding with Israel.

    Brazil does not.

    What part of that basic point do you fail to get ??

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 03:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    The US and the EU are not backing Israel, where did you get that from??

    It was 70 years ago that a nuclear weapon was used in an open war. Brazil is not prohibited from developing conventional armed forces; in fact it’s developing them. What the Israeli Foreign minister was referring to is that Brazil despite its size and economy fails to be a credible world player. It doesn’t even hold a credible leadership role in South America, it simply clusters the anti-American club of losers around it in the last decade which have left them with a dividing gap with the Pacific Alliance forming back door. This is a only and clear diplomatic defeat for Brazil. Thats why they are diplomatic dwarfs. But this is already to much of a complex matter for you and you will respond some US and EU crap.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 03:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext

    @1 Brasileiro

    Israel destroyed? No thanks, one Final Solution was quite enough thank you. Held accountable? Absolutely.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 04:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Steve R

    How many members of the EU have nukes :-)

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 06:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @13 CabezaDura2

    I think it’s horseshit because I’m asked to believe too much that isn’t credible.

    I’m supposed to believe this is all about rockets, and the political context has got nothing to do with it. I’m supposed to discount that with elections due in a year, Netanyahu was being outflanked on the right by racists even more bloodthirsty than he (e.g Bennett, Shaked, Feiglin, Liebermann, etc).

    I’m supposed to ignore that Hamas was a spent force until now, that it had lost its support from Syria, Iran, and Egypt, that it was about to make an agreement with the PLO implying recognition of Israel and which would have left it no government posts.

    I’m supposed to believe instead that home-made bottle rockets which have caused no casualties over years suddenly constitute a major threat to Israel, except when they land near an airport, when it turns out they’re no big deal at all.

    I’m supposed to believe hat Israel had no other policy options but to do exactly what it claims Hamas wanted it to do in the first place. I’m supposed to believe every country in the world would respond the same way, although the only parallels I can see are Russia in Chechyna, the Serbs in Bosnia, and Assad in Syria. I’m supposed to believe this is different because Israel has come up with some miraculous method of ethical bombardment of the defenceless that makes it all OK.

    I’m supposed to believe that nuclear-armed Israel faces existential threat from its neighbours, although three of these are in ruins and it has treaties with the other two, that Goliath is actually David, that Israel wants peace, that a policy of periodic culling of the hostage pen will ensure its security, and that Palestinians should respond to it all like Mahatma Gandhi.

    And finally I’m supposed to believe it’s anti-semitic to call bullshit on any of this.

    So yes, count me in as a “typical British PC muslim/neggar lover ??” (whatever that is). It beats being a dupe.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 08:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Are you supposed to believe anything but you are not handicapped of doing your own research..

    Rocket launches from Gaza are a permanent reality, what triggers an Israeli response is the rate of them
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

    Just look at May- March and how it went up in June- July. Israeli response is only a week old…
    Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. That’s the simple reality of it, I think Israel has made it clear by now that they will respond to wherever Hamas fires from they will bomb back.

    Hamas loves its human shields because then it can play the propaganda wars with tools like yourself in the West. Nothing best like kids in pieces, crying moms and big explotions to make Hamas and terrorists its day.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 10:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    Try reading your own research. In virtually all cases, it's “No injuries or damages were reported”.

    And as for the trend, try this :

    ”Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the November 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose.. As Israel (and Egypt) rolled back the 2012 understandings - some of which were implemented spottily at best - so too did Hamas roll back its anti rocket efforts.“

    http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/Middle%20East%20North%20Africa/Israel%20Palestine/b039-gaza-and-israel-new-obstacles-new-solutions.pdf

    As for human shields, Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor: ”I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields.“ The Guardian: ”In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods.. and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay.“ The Independent: ”Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields.“ Reuters, 2013: ”A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.”

    http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/Middle%20East%20North%20Africa/Israel%20Palestine/b039-gaza-and-israel-new-obstacles-new-solutions.pdf

    Indeed, I wonder why if destruction of civilians is exactly what Hamas wants, Israel is delivering the goods with such enthusiasm and alacrity?

    Meanwhile, here's what Netanyahu says when he's unaware of the camera.

    http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/Middle%20East%20North%20Africa/Israel%20Palestine/b039-gaza-and-israel-new-obstacles-new-solutions.pdf

    The biggest tools are those who think they're tough.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 10:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brasileiro

    @23

    Final Solution is a thing of Nazis! I meant the destruction of Israel, State of Israel. Israel is an abomination, a true cancer deployed by the UN with full support of the United States.
    In order to alleviate the pains of the Final Solution practiced by the West against the Jewish people another crime was perpetrated with the creation of the State of Israel on land belonging to Arab peoples.

    Why did not deploy the remnants of the Jewish people in the Falkland Islands?

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 11:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @28

    Israel is no more an abomination or a cancer than any other state on the planet is. It's a military superpower controlled by right wing nut jobs, but that's another thing entirely.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext

    @28 Brasileiro

    ...and the destruction of Israel ( and just exactly how do you propose this be achieved? ) would be a continuation of what the Nazi's failed. Many mistakes were made during it's formation in the aftermath of an exhausted, devastated world and the results are evident. Your 'solution' would be worse. All it would take for a peaceful solution is the willingness to do so. Israel, despite a remarkable degree of resourcefulness, cannot survive completely on it's own. It needs to be provided with good reasons - with teeth - as to why it would be in their interests to pursue a genuine peace. That is what I mean by held accountable.

    The current incursion into, and shelling of, Gaza has become a public relations failure for Israel. They can't keep doing this without losing support. Even the U.S. can only stomach seeing just so many dead children on their tv's before they decide they've had enough. It's often been said that the U.S. lost the Vietnam War via the television. The same is happening to Israel.

    p.s. Nazi Germany was not 'the West'.

    p.p.ps. “Why do not deploy the remnants of the Jewish people in the Falkland Islands?” Apart from the fact that that is where the Jewish people originally came from, and that many Jews already lived there? Why not Brazil? No shortage of space...

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 01:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    27.

    OMG your leftists liberal British Muslim loving and excusing media and your complete lack of logic and a fact based reasoning. Huffington post UK, Guardian, BBC …. Isn’t that Hasan guy the same Muslim that comes up telling your people how pacific and wonderful people, well integrated Muslims in the UK are and always playing in the victim each time there is a violent episode in your own country involving Muslims ??

    I don’t understand what the Israelis are supposed to do, simply cross arms and wait for casualties to raise???… You want to talk about trends simply because the year 2013 was going low

    2009: 569 rockets and 289 mortars
    2010: 150 rocket launches and 215 mortar launches
    2011: 680 rockets, mortars and Grad missiles
    2012: 2,257 rockets (significantly UP FROM 2012 and 2011!!)
    So your idea of trends is completely false even if we discount the current escalade.

    The reality is you are expecting Israel to be surgical about its replies to the Hamas attacks in the most densely populated places on earth is completely un-realistic. If these terrorist were so brave why don’t they attack the IDF soldiers and guards manning the check points, ramparts and watch towers with AK-47 and sniper rifles instead of shooting these missiles and running off to the next building where families live???

    And suffice to say the people of Gaza voted for Hamas a terrorist organization, they allow these people to fire from their crowded streets and buildings knowing full well what Israel will answer with. Tough titty then.
    But then, doesn’t anybody realistic and cynical enough know that this is the only way Hamas can get its international attention, foreign aid and support, otherwise if there is no war from time to time people will simply forget about them, Gaza and the Palestinians with so much going on in the broader Middle East nowadays.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 02:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Seems my post@12 was removed by the Editor because he believes I insulted the Brasileiro@1. The truth is, that when you get an idiot posting, as Brasileiro does - just take a look at #1 & 28...how can someone be so devoid of any logic, or common sense ?? an example : While he defends the PT in Brazil, claiming it has done wonders for the poor people, the truth is just the opposite : the rich have become wealthier, the poor have become even more miserable, and the high-ranking PT members of government have, in 10 years, become part of the extremely wealthy. On the other hand, he has the nerve to condemn the Israelis for defending themselves against the 'peace-loving' muslims....
    CD2@18, 20, 22 & 31, I agree with you, and will go one step further : discussing, or rather, arguing with idiots like the Brasileiro and his gang (his posts are the pathetic contribution of several ignoramus's like himself), is like telling the Argie trolls that the Argentine has no legal claim on the Falkland Islands...you can't win, they'll always come back with one more reply, still more absurd than the previous one.
    What makes this forum still palatable is the fact that there are still some people in this forum with their heads screwed on straight... Heisenbergcontext @ 23 & 30 : you nailed it, but it's lost on the brainless twits that inhabit this forum.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 31 CabezaDura2

    I agree with you, but you are wasting your time with 27.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 04:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext

    @32 Jack

    Thanks, but just to be clear, Brasileiro aside, it's Hans comments that I support on this subject. Netanyahu ( and don't get me started on his ghastly wife ) & Avigdor Liberman are both lucky to not be in jail like Ehud Olmert, Netanyahu's predecessor. Tzipi Livni excluded, they are a collection of cynics and thugs IMO. Liberman is a big fan of Putin. He should have stayed in Russia.

    I agree with CD2's statements regarding Hamas cynicism which just makes the current Israeli action even more perverse. Consistently defying UN resolutions regarding building new settlements on occupied territory on the West Bank and demolishing Arab Israeli houses in East Jerusalam whilst treating it's best, and perhaps only ally - the U.S. with contempt are both excellent ways of making Hamas seem more attractive to Gazans and demonstrating a lack of diplomatic acumen.

    The current Israeli govt believes it can be secure without peace between the two sides. I want it to be secure too. I think the world owes it to them. But this approach will not work.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @31

    Here's the leftists liberal British Muslim loving and excusing Economist on the topic. Perhaps that's more to your taste

    “But war is about conduct as well as aims. Israel is wrong to hit buildings with no evident military purpose and houses packed with civilians, even if they harbour Hamas fighters or officials and the army gives warnings. It may also be counterproductive. Hamas knows that, as the death toll among its own people rises, it has a better chance to promote its cause.

    The world’s biggest open-air prison
    To stop the fighting Hamas must promise not to fire its rockets into Israel. But in return Israel should agree to honour an agreement dating to 2012 to lift the siege that has immiserated Gaza’s inhabitants since 2007 in an effort to enfeeble Hamas. And it should free, or put on trial, some of the hundreds of Hamas prisoners rounded up in the past month or so on the West Bank, the bigger bit of a would-be Palestinian state.

    But the catastrophe befalling Gaza stems fundamentally from the refusal of Israel to negotiate in good faith to let the Palestinians have a proper state encompassing both Gaza and the West Bank. Mr Netanyahu still allows the building of Jewish settlements there, which makes a workable Palestinian state ever less likely to emerge.”

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 05:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    35.
    So what does the guy in the cockpit of an Israeli F-15 do then if a guerrilla is in hiding in a building?? I would like to hear the guy that wrote that explain that to the IDF.
    Should the Israelis instead of using disproportionate force simply just back fire random rockets and mortar rounds into Gaza until eventually the Palestinian rockets halt their fire??
    Probably even more Palestinians would die.

    F__k the two state solution it was realistically inconceivable since the boundaries of the 1967 war were drawn, there was never such thing as a country called “Palestine” the Gaza strip should have gone to Egypt years ago and the west bank to Jordan. They were offered this years ago and both countries refuse and still refuse to deal with the Palestinians. Why does responsability of their fate rest only on Israel???

    It was the Egyptians that ruled over the Holy lands before the Turkish and British did after expelling the Crusaders.

    And say whatever you like about Netanyahu and the Likud party, they have an expiration date. Hamas is a jihadist movement; its purpose is to gain power while raging wholly war and terrorism. Like many other of these groups all over the Middle East. The West Bank is not besieged, Gaza is for this reason.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 06:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @36

    There are 1.6 million people in Gaza, of whom 15,000 are members of Hamas. You don't seriously believe that this operation, and the one before it, and the one before that, is aimed solely at the 15,000 and that some of the 1.6 million unfortunately
    get in the way, or get commandeered as human shields, and the economic infrastructure regrettably gets destroyed once more? If that's the case, it's remarkably unsuccessful at dealing with rocket attacks, otherwise it wouldn't have been necessary 3 times in six years. On the other hand, if the aim is simply to deter Hamas and forestall economic activity by periodically visiting massive retribution upon the population as a whole, that would be consistent with Netanyahu's own words and the fact this policy is known as “mowing the lawn” in certain circles in Israel. It's also a war crime, however you look at it.

    But at least you seem to be admitting that a further aim is to make any two state solution impossible, while attempting to blame the failure somewhere else. Kind of like the Argentine default.

    I don't know where you get the idea either that Netanyahu, the Likud, and Israel itself are a secular operation. They are coming from exactly the same place as the jihadis are, and operate on the same time scales. Check out Minister of Religious Affairs Eli Ben-Dahan, who apparently believes that a Jewish soul is more valuable than a Muslim or Christian one, or any other kind.

    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Ben-Dahan-must-go-336815

    I expect that puts you in the cheap seats too.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    The answer to that is simple, Israel has never intended in destroying Hamas, because in order to do so they must invade and fight in house by house and arrest and kill all Hamas members. But then the world would be in uproar if Israel proceeded in that way
    Israel has always made clear that its objective is to take down as much as Hamas’s offensive capabilities and rocket launching sites.

    Why does Hamas reemerge each 2 or 3 years or so..?? Well look at the Gaza strip population pyramid and think and analyze it for yourself.
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html
    Age structure…
    0-14 years: 43.2% (male 402,848/female 381,155)
    15-24 years: 20.6% (male 191,710/female 182,405)
    25-54 years: 30.1% (male 280,551/female 266,756)
    55-64 years: 3.5% (male 31,711/female 31,515)

    Median age 18 for males.
    You have generations of very young un employed (40% youth un employment) Gazeans reemerging very quickly and joining the ranks of Hamas after each war.

    And I think you should start to get real man. I don’t know who this minister is and what power and influence he has within gov’t, but certainly it was an Israeli paper that picked up his statements and criticized them. Israel is a democracy the only one in the region which means that the extremist can be removed by vote.
    I won’t be holding my breath till some Islamic cleric is criticized in a Muslim democracy

    Even if Israel accepts the two state solution, what would Hamas do?? Depose its attacks and war?? No it won’t because it’s simple political existence depends on open conflict with Israel or any other regional Muslim power.

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 10:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    Given that this is the third attempt, as previously noted, and by your own figures, this is a singularly ineffective way of taking down Hamas' offensive capabilities, trivial though they may be.

    And meanwhile maintaining the blockade, by your own figures, looks like a good way of ensuring a steady supply of recruits for Hamas. And blowing up the place repeatedly a good way of keeping them motivated, I shouldn't wonder.

    All in all, sounds like a recipe for keeping the whole cycle going while expropriations continue in Jerusalem and colonisation proceeds on the West Bank.

    How long would you think till the lawn needs mowing again?

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 10:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    39.

    And what you would have Israel do then when they are rocket fired?? Have them for tea ?? Have Muslims like Mehdi Hasan on Israeli Tv and media making it adamant and brainwashing the Israelis about how peaceful they are, how anti Islamic the perpetrators are of each time a bombing, murder or rocket attack occurs??
    Have all British, French or Scandinavian PC laws incorporated to Israeli justice of self imposed racism and guilt just to make these Muslims happy??

    Take down the walls and let Palestinians walk into Israel and do their stuff at
    will. And if any poll conducted on Muslims show a majority of them are actually violent and want the Jews beheaded then the Politically correct government organ should swiftly act to censor before it makes it to the public. Don’t expect them to do the same and behave in the same condescending and cowardly way like you do.

    They have been for generations looking for a country they could call their own. You have given yours away in your own generation. If you have given up on yourselves that’s your problem and your own stupidity. They will defend what is theirs

    You have a twisted mind that works in the following order; 1)Israeli consequences 2) Palestinian decisions 3) Ground reality. And it simply doesn’t work like that,

    Jul 29th, 2014 - 10:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    ”You have a twisted mind that works in the following order; 1)Israeli consequences 2) Palestinian decisions 3) Ground reality. And it simply doesn’t work like that“

    You're right. It quite simply doesn't work like that.

    The 2009 Goldstone report quoted IDF Northern Command Chief Gadi Eisenkot, who said, “What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on. We will apply disproportionate force on it and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases. [...] This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved.” In effect, the civilian infrastructure of adversaries such as Hamas or Hezbollah are treated as permissible military targets, which is not only an overt violation of the most elementary norms of the law of war and of universal morality, but an avowal of a doctrine of violence that needs to be called by its proper name: STATE TERRORISM.”

    https://richardfalk.wordpress.com/tag/dahiya-doctrine/

    There have of course been two further episodes since this was written, including the current one, so there can be no doubt that the practice of state terrorism remains Israeli policy.

    Some people are so blinded by prejudice that they can't see it, or are even prepared to condone it.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 07:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext

    @38 CD2

    “I won't be holding my breath till some Islamic cleric is criticized in a Muslim democracy”.

    Does Indonesia fit your criteria? Abu Bakar Bashir is doing 15 years as of 2011. Ostensibly for supporting a jihadi training camp but really for being the inspiration behind the Bali bombing. The Bali bomber themselves were executed, by firing squad, in 2008.

    Their anti-terror agency, Detachment 88 ( great story(s) behind that name ) has been very successful in finding, capturing and killing terrorists since the Bali bombing. Some might say Israeliesque. They receive funding from the Sate Department ( U.S.).

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 11:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Exactly to my point, you are running after Israel’s consequences to Palestinian and now Lebanese decisions ….The General said himself what I was pointing out earlier

    “Despite the revolutionary change on the domestic Lebanese front, I do not think that the Dahiya strategy would have received the official stamp of approval had our leaders’ view of accountability not changed. This change was not the result of an orderly examination process, but rather, a growing realization that led to the following conclusion: Our neighbors must be held fully accountable for their leaders’ acts.
    We have failed in our sophisticated attempts to distinguish between innocent individuals and sinning leaders. We have failed in the effort to distinguish between “simple people who also have fathers and children” and those who incite those simple folk. Without saying so explicitly, we reached the conclusion that nations are responsible for their leaders’ acts.
    In practical terms, the Palestinians in Gaza are all Khaled Mashaal, the Lebanese are all Nasrallah, and the Iranians are all Ahmadinejad.
    Regrettably this doctrine did not take hold in the days following our withdrawal from Lebanon. Too bad it did not take hold immediately after the “disengagement” from Gaza and the first rocket barrages directed at the northern Negev. In both those cases we deluded ourselves into thinking that the “people” are not the same as their leaders, and that the “people” only care about making a living, but are captive to “radical and irresponsible elements.”

    http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3605863,00.html

    In the 1940s the bombing of cities like Hamburg, London or Stalingrad was called war, now it called state terrorism.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 01:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @43

    Unless I'm seriously mistaken, it seems to me that we don't disagree in our understanding of what Israel is actually doing. The difference is that you condone it and I don't.

    If this is so, will you then also agree with my original contention that what Israel is trying to tell the world is somewhat at odds with what its strategy actually is? Or is, in other words, horseshit?

    Some people have indeed argued that the bombing of cities like Hamburg, London, or Stalingrad was terrorism, insofar as any strategy which aims to neutralise combattants by creating terror among non-combattants is terrorism. And indeed some of the logic put forward by the British in particular for their campaign of area bombing was quite similar to that currently put forward by the Israelis.

    Personally, I don't see that the cases are comparable. For one thing, there is no doubt that Nazi Germany posed a profound existential threat in a way that Hamas doesn't. Or in other words, as a response it was proportionate. And for another, the WWII allies had no other policy option whereas Israel has plenty, starting with honouring the agreements it has previously entered into, or actually respecting the values it claims to enshrine.

    In this respect, you may think international law as it currently stands is naive or unfair, but I think it's undeniable that Israel's current strategy is in breach of it, and notably the Geneva Convention. Compare this to other “anti-terrorist” operations such as e.g American drone strikes against Pakistan or Yemen, or UK operations against the IRA, which have indeed screwed up and implicated the innocent at different times, but were never aimed at the civilian population en masse, as I believe you have now conceded Israel is doing.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 02:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    No, we do disagree on what Israel is doing… You completely lack common sense to interpret anything.
    Besides how many times did Israel drop leaflets into the sections of the Gaza strip or Lebanon where it was going to bomb or attack?? But as the Israelis have concluded it is impossible to run perpetually selective strikes and they have made it adamant they will just blow everything around the racketeers. And the local populations where these groups operate from inevitably provide their platform for attacks either by their apathy or simply their aid to these groups.

    You keep on bitching around about what Israel should stop doing but don’t come up with any solution or idea as to what Israel should do instead. And you completely fail to condemn Hamas or held responsible the Palestinian civilians for their actions and decisions.

    Reality is there is a limited amount of things Israel can do to limit casualties, but if the Palestinians are stupid or they keep on sheltering and living amongst terrorist then the reality is that they will get.
    They don’t want to get bombed?? Simple, stop firing rockets into Israel. And there is no way around this.

    This is not northern mountainous Pakistan where the drone is piloted by someone who is sitting in a USAF base in Nevada and knows that the combatants don’t pose him any threat to his livelihood. The pilot in the F-15 over the crowded Gaza cities knows full well that if he doesn’t take the building the guerrilla will fire another rocket in the next minute to his own people and country.

    You also completely fail to understand the very basic principle that defines each party. The IDF is simply defending its own country while Hamas and Hezbollah are focused on vendettas and terrorism and clearly not in defending their own people in fact they don’t give a F__k about them, otherwise they wouldn’t do this .

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 03:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @45

    So I say that Israel is enacting a policy of collective punishment against the inhabitants of Gaza as a whole, and you say “ the Israelis have made it adamant they will just blow everything around the racketeers ....if the Palestinians are stupid or they keep on sheltering and living amongst terrorist then the reality is that they will get. ”, and so on, and this is you disagreeing with me?

    I'l say it again: we both know exactly what Israel is doing. The difference is that you condone it and I don't.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    No, the difference is that you condone Hamas before hand on the basis of disproportionate use of force rather than decisions and responsibilities they Palestinians bare before acknowledging Israel’s legitimate right to a self defense

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 03:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    Let's try it this way. I'll agree with you.

    What I believe is that the Israelis have concluded it is impossible to run perpetually selective strikes and they have made it adamant they will just blow everything around the racketeers. There is a limited amount of things Israel can do to limit casualties, but if the Palestinians are stupid or they keep on sheltering and living amongst terrorist then the reality is that they will get xx (you omitted a word, but I imagine you meant “blown up” or something).

    How's that? Are we in agreement so far, or do you want to repudiate your own words?

    PS Note that I haven't actually attempted to condone Hamas at any point, I've only cited some references that attempt to put their actions in context. Personally, I think they're assholes who put their own people in harm's way. I hope that's clear enough for you.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 04:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Are you really?? Because I don’t think you understanding the implications of that paragraph at all.

    What should Israel do in order to defend itself from the rocket attacks of Hamas???

    You just can’t answer a straight forward question EVER

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @49

    I'll get round to who condones what in a minute.

    I'm just trying to establish first what we agree on and what we don't. In this respect, I think we can both agree that a) Hamas are assholes and b) Israel regards the whole of Gaza as a legitimate target. Is that fair? Will you answer that straightforward question, please? Or are you just so argumentative you're determined to disagree with me even when I'm agreeing with you?

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Life is full of assholes…Terrorist is another completely different thing. I don’t live with the prospect of a random rocket falling over my head at any moment and neither do you.
    Israel doesn’t deliberately target civilians for the sakes of it. You should read again the Generals comments again

    Again .....What should Israel do in order to defend itself from the rocket attacks of Hamas???

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 51 CabezaDura2

    Exactly what it is doing now plus bombing Iran for their support of Hamas.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    52
    Yep it cant be more simple can it??, but I wonder what the columnists of the Guardian Huffington Post, HansNiesund and his twitter friends and the UN general assembly propose the IDF to do each time Hamas fires a rocket into Israel

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 05:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @52

    Chris, you're not quite up to speed with who's on who's side in the Middle East. Iran has abandoned support for Hamas because Hamas sided with the opposition to Assad, who Iran supports.

    This turned out to be bad business for Hamas, because it turns out that the Islamic nutter wing of the opposition to Assad (i.e ISIS and the Salafists) don't support Hamas either.

    This is no doubt one of the reasons Hamas had entered into an agreement with the PLO which implied recognition of Israel. Obviously enough, if your aim is to prevent peace in the Middle East, that's one of the things you'd want to put a stop to.

    @51

    What Israel should do in order to defend itself from the rocket attacks of Hamas, is remove the root cause of the attacks.

    But let's finish off with my original contention in #8 first. I've seen and heard any number of Israeli spokesmen and politicians lamenting the civilian casualties in Gaza, on the grounds that they're mistakes, or unfortunate collateral damage in a heavily populated area, or deeply regrettable humans shields, or whatever, but what we've both concluded is that disproportionate attacks on civilians and civil infrastructure are in fact standard operating doctrine for the IDF.

    Don't you agree therefore that what we're being told is horseshit?

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    54

    No, I don’t understand the contradiction you are implying there.

    “What Israel should do in order to defend itself from the rocket attacks of Hamas, is remove the root cause of the attacks.”
    And that is what they are doing each time they destroy and attack the rocket launching sites.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 06:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @55

    They are claiming civilian casualties aren't their fault, when civilian casualties are a deliberate choice they've made, and you can't see the contradiction? I'm surprised, really. You see through your own politicians' bullshit very clearly but you seem blind
    to this.

    What Israel is doing won't stop rocket attacks, and they know it. That's why they have the policy of “mowing the lawn”, which starts from the assumption that violence will continue and they will have to enact the Dahiya doctrine every so often to damp it down. If that actually worked it wouldn't be the third time now they've done it.

    The only way they can actually stop rocket attacks, assuming its unfeasible to exterminate all Palestinians and Arabs, is to accept that the Palestinians aren't going to go away and have a whole slew of legitimate grievances, and notably the blockade and periodic bombardment of the defenceless in Gaza. Who on earth would accept to live like this and not fight back? Would you?

    The truth is Israel has had any number of opportunities to do this. In 2002, every member of the Arab League offered to recognize Israel if it returned to the 1967 borders and implemented a “just” and “agreed upon” solution to the problem of refugees. In 2003 former negotiators from both sides agreed a workable two state plan that nearly gave Sharon a heart attack. Since then there have been numerous attempts at agreements and peace deals, Israel has rejected or sabotaged most of them, and the ones it has entered into it has treated the same way Argentina treats its agreements. In the meantime, settlements and expropriations have carried on merrily on the West Bank and Jerusalem.

    In other words, faced with a choice between rockets and peace, Israel has chosen rockets. Given that Iron Dome destroys 90% of them, and the rest are nearly totally ineffective, it's obviously quite a cheap choice for them.

    But don't try and tell me it doesn't suck, or I'm not being lied to.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 07:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 54 HansNiesund

    I am aware that Iran has cut off money to Hamas, but let me ask you a question.

    When Hamas are decimated (1 in 10 killed) or whatever it takes, do you REALLY think that the ragheads in Iran are going to sit there and NOT aid Hamas, an Islam organisation in trouble?

    I most certainly do not think that Iran will let Hamas be defeated because in their mind it would be a defeat for them as well.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 07:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @57

    Chris, first off, I don't believe that this operation has any possibility of decimating Hamas, or that the intention even is to decimate Hamas. They don't call this strategy “mowing the lawn” for nothing. They know full well that the grass will grow again, which will keep the assholes on both sides happy for a long time to come.

    I don't see either that the ragheads in Iran are going to intervene in any way that would change the fundamentals either. First of all they aren't even ragheads, as I'm sure you know, second of all they are Shia non-ragheads where Hamas are Sunni, third of all they have plenty already to keep them busy in Iraq and Syria, fourthly they have never intervened before when Israel was playing the same game much closer to home in Lebanon, fifthly Israel is so powerful that nobody in the Middle East dares take them on anyway, and finally they would have no allies to support them.

    That being said, this is the Middle East and who knows really what can happen. Much as I applaud the sentiment, what I find much more scary are the noises that Turkey might send another humanitarian flotilla, this time with marines on board and a naval escort.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    No, civilians are not a deliberate choice they have made!!! Where do you get this idea of “mowing the lawn” from ?? General Gadi Eisenkot said so?? Is that part of the “Dahiya Doctrine” (if such thing even exists assuming Israel just simply mentions its geopolitical strategy out loud for people like you to just picked them out of internet) You can’t expect Israel to guarantee the safety of all those people collaborating and living amongst the terrorist, when are you ever going to understand this??

    The boundaries of pre 6 days war were by 2002 completely unrealistic, and actually the “borders” were established in 1949 (Which in reality it was simply the line of battle). Why didn’t the Palestinians accept the 1948 proposal instead of launching a war to exterminate Israel… And then again in 1967, and then again 1973!

    In the mean time Israel developed itself, invested and populated the lands while the years went by.. Half a century later they want to split 50-50 Israel??? I think it’s a bit late for that. It’s as stupid as the Argentine “all or nothing” pretence over the Malvinas islands 200 years later on and a military defeat.

    It’s the disputed territory of the West Bank that remained under effective Israeli military occupation.

    And you just keep on focusing on Israelis response to previous Arabian and Palestinian side decision. This is just another example…Because you seem daft enough to think that Iron Dome was developed before the rockets started landing on the Israeli side. And as we have gone through already the rockets trace back as far as 2001. All this form some mischievous plan for Israel to illegally occupy (not Gaza where Hamas is) but the west bank…
    It was in 2005 that the Israelis started thinking about how to prevent the rockets from landing in Israel and as late as 2011. (10 years after been shelled by mortars and rockets, that Iron dome was deployed by Israel)

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 08:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @59

    What is it exactly you don't understand about an Israeli general stating in the Israeli press ”We will apply disproportionate force on it (village) and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases .... this is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved“. Plenty more in the same vein here :
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3605863,00.html

    As for ”Mowing the lawn“ here it is again from the Israeli press, talking in this case about Operation Pillar of Defense, i.e the time before this the grass was mowed:

    ”It is viewed as both a sequel to Operation Cast Lead and a prequel to what will invariably be the next IDF operation in the Strip, and the next, until a diplomatic solution can be found.

    In IDF slang, the process is known as “mowing the lawn.” Only time will tell when the weeds will grow back.”

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3605863,00.html

    The answer to the question is about every two years, it seems.

    I don't think anybody has suggested splitting Israel 50/50. Most peace initiatives have talked of the pre-1967 borders, or something similar. There have been Israeli politicians prepared to contemplate this, but unfortunately their most credible peacemaker was assasinated by extremists.

    Speaking of Israeli Premiers, are you aware that two at least of them were former terrorists? And one of those was a high ranking member of a gang which offered their services to the Nazis to fight the Brits in Palestine? And was in 1948 implicated in the assassination of the UN mediator Count Bernadotte, the aim being to ensure that there was no peace settlement?

    It's not a game of cowboys and indians in that part of the world, and there are very few white horses.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 08:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    60.
    Now I’m starting to understand why language teachers incest so much since the age of 7 yo with seemingly the same questions about a text over and over, the questions always seemed the same at first glance but the devil is in the detail so you ended u reading the whole thing again…Otherwise known as text comprehension… That doesn’t seem to be your strong does it?? Or is it that you are a specialist in taking things out of context??

    Yes, the Israeli General said that…. About the villages which these rockets are fired from and where the terrorist hide (in this case Hezbollah in the Lebanese campaign 2006) !!!!! As I have being saying all along. Where is the contradiction here??

    And yes, the Israelis do seem to call the continuation of Gaza interventions “mowing the lawn” but again it’s because they are fired by Hamas each two years or so. It’s not a deliberate policy of the IDF that one day they feel bored with themselves and decide to go on a bombing rage in the Gaza strip.
    That’s what they mean with pre 1967 borders to de facto go back to the 1949 ones.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @61

    There isn't a contradiction. As I keep telling you, I agree exactly with your interpretation of what the Israelis are doing, namely going after the terrorists without making any distinctions between terrorists and civilians who may harbour them or who may just be unlucky enough to be in the vicinity. You don't have to take my word for what the implications are, there are plenty Israeli commentators saying exactly the same thing and drawing them all out, if you care to look.

    And of course this is all entirely in keeping with what General Eisenkot said, exactly what the Dahiya doctrine is, and exactly what is happening on the ground in Gaza now, for the third time in six years.

    What I don't get is how you can be simultaneously denying it is happening, but also condoning it.

    I see we're also in agreement as to what “mowing the lawn” is, although you don't seem to have realised it yet. But probably you'll get there in the end.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 10:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    Ataturk knew what he was doing when he made Turkey secular. I particularly like this which is always quoted:
    “ transformed the former Ottoman Empire into a modern, secular, and democratic nation-state. Under his leadership, thousands of new schools were built, primary education was made free and compulsory, and women were given equal civil and political rights, while the burden of taxation on peasants was reduced.” (Ataturk.com)

    And then the Muslims decided otherwise and now we have an Islamist government with all that that entails.

    I wonder how long Israel will tolerate a deliberate military action against them by what used to be a civil nation now a Muslim one full of the usual medieval nutjobs? If the Turks want to lose a military ship and the manpower in it then they are going about it in the right way. I wonder how much support this radical Prime Minister really has: not a lot by all accounts but the people elected him and they will have to live with it. A bit like The Dark Country and TMBOA.

    I think by now you have got the gist of where I stand with the Islamists et al but I will make it crystal clear for you so that there is NO misunderstanding: if the choice is between ANY Muslim State or Muslim individual and ANY other non-Muslim State or non-Muslim individual as to who lives and who dies then the Muslims die.

    Rather them than my family or their descendants because whether you want to admit it or not that is what is as risk here.

    So the choice is simple. I have never been one to duck doing the thing that matters to me: cancer test(s) and making very hard decisions in business affecting many people. My motto, according to my wife is “to look at the thing that is threatening what you love and go out and strangle it to death”.

    I will settle for that, it has NEVER let me down.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 10:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @63

    Believe what you like, but speaking for myself I think that right and wrong is a more difficult question than which flavour of the Sky Fairy a particular group or individual happens to have been brought up with.

    Jul 30th, 2014 - 11:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Chris@63,
    Couldn't have put it better...screw the backward, medieval muzzies...

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 03:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    I'm sure it's all very satisfying if you're that way inclined, but playing right into their hands is hardly going to screw them.

    For one thing, the real backward, medieval muzzies hate Hamas and similar regimes even more than they hate Israel. They are probably perfectly happy to have Israel acting as their instrument, even if no doubt they would prefer to be enacting atrocities themselves if they weren't already fully occupied doing that elsewhere. The truly bizarre logic of it all is well explained here: “The Islamic State does not regard fighting Israel as legitimate and calls instead for first ”purifying“ the Islamic world, including challenging Hamas.”
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/islamic-state-fighting-hamas-priority-before-israel.html

    As for Hamas, if as Israel claims their aim is to put their own people in harm's way in order to gain sympathy in the West and the world, they are succeeding gangbusters. According to last night's news, already 60% of the UK believes Israel is guilty of war crimes. This is already a complete sea change in public perceptions and this is before it is widely understood that causing civilian casualties and destroying civil infrastructure are a matter of doctrine and policy rather than an unfortunate side effect. It will take decades for the consequences of this change in perception to emerge fully, but Israel can only emerge weaker in the long run.

    Netanyahu meanwhile, is too dumb to ride the tiger. His only policy option now is to actually try to dig the lawn up rather than just mow it. This will probably end up costing him his alliances with Egypt and Jordan, in the same way that Cast Lead cost him his relation with Turkey.

    All in all, it's a good time for the enemies of Israel, and they barely need to lift a finger.

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 07:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext

    @57 ChrisR

    Iran has had 30 years to challenge Israel militarily - they haven't because they know they can't win. It's why they established their staggeringly expensive nuclear program. Israel's own program was much cheaper - they simply stole their plutonium from the U.S.

    CD: Israel's current plans are unsustainable in the long term. The last time Israel invaded Gaza they destroyed their tunnels and rockets. This time, despite all the borders between Israel, Egypt and Gaza being closed ( although it was reopened whilst Morsi was briefly in power ) they have been able to build much more sophisticated tunnels, with high voltage power lines and lined with concrete. Even under Israel's much vaunted security wall. They still haven't run out of rockets. IDF soldiers are reportedly shocked at how tenaciously Hamas fighters have resisted. They still have prepared for this - including the loss of life.

    “Until a diplomatic solution is found.” They're not looking for a diplomatic solution though are they? I'll say this 'til I'm blue in the face - the whole agenda is being driven by extremists on both sides who have much more in common they are willing to admit. Apart from a fondness for luxuriant beards they are both in love with their fear, rage and self-righteousness.

    Israel is losing the P.R. war. They are dependant on the Pentagon for much of their armanents, the U.S. has just condemned the latest school bombing. They are entering the brinkmanship phase...

    You say ( to paraphrase ) the 1967 borders are unrealistic. It was Egypt, Syria and Jordan that attacked Israel in '67 & '73. None of them have any int

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 08:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @67

    “Apart from a fondness for luxuriant beards they are both in love with their fear, rage and self-righteousness.”

    Well said.

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 08:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext

    ...intention of invading or the ability to do so. The settlers and their supporters believe they have the divine right to the occupied territory's - answerable to God's laws - not international laws, nor the UN to whom Israel owes it's existence. I maintain it's impossible to say whether those borders are unrealistic until they are 'settled' by the original occupants.

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 10:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    There are a lot of monied Jews in NY who hold a lot of sway in the US.

    The US could shut off the armaments but it would lose friends and support in America as well as continuing not having any friends in the area around Israel.

    Even the Yank Military would not stand for Obuma doing that.

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 01:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext

    @68

    Thanks. What is it with nutcases & beards? Can't they afford razor blades?

    @70

    Yep, lots of wealthy Jewish Americans in NYC & elsewhere and Israeli lobbyists in DC are possibly the most influential in the US. It's a balancing act I guess - how many dead children = how much loss of influence.

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @66 HansNiesund :
    I am no scholar on the Israeli x Arab conflict, but in this particular case, Israel versus Hamas, seems to me that the Muslims being affected by the 'war', are either very passive, i.e., “ They are probably perfectly happy to have Israel acting as their instrument”, or are in cahoots with the Hamas, which btw, was elected by them. Then again, when you refer to the “Islamic State”, this appears to be only a virtual concept, as the muslims have always fought amongst themselves, and are incapable of putting aside their petty differences for the sake of unity..
    As to the PR war being conducted by Hamas, the part of the public which is ready to swallow it as presented (by the Hamas), are definitely not amongst the well-informed. They're the type that would even buy a piece of crap, if it were nicely presented to them. I find it strange that anyone, with any real notion of what the ultimate goal of the “Islamic State” is, would defend it. On the other hand, if it is only the minority of Muslims that make up and /or openly support the radical groups, why doesn't the “rational” majority to get rid of them ? If they are not happy about being exposed to the constant dangers they are submitted to, by their “leaders”, it's high time they did something about it.

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 02:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    62.
    You are not understanding, the reality is if the locals of any village, town, neighborhood or city allow Hamas or any terrorist forces to launch attacks they become by default in their accomplices, either because the openly collaborate and help them or because they tolerate the terrorist operate form their houses and streets. Therefore endangering themselves to a Israeli response.
    The IDF first responsibility is not to the Palestinians, not to the UN, not to the Foreign ministers of Argentina, UK nor Brazil or some liberal politically correct media agency like the Guardian or some charity organization in London. Its prime responsibility is to defend their own people… When are you ever going to understand something as common sense as this??
    Besides didn’t the Palestinians in Gaza vote for Hamas in 2006?? Well there you go.

    This is where all your Twitter mates get these ideas and concepts like “mowing the grass” and this so called doctrine from
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDP7ZSJlikA
    You are sitting in England and elsewhere launching an anti Israeli campaign on social media. You just go retro feeding each other with your same crap you invent out of simple articles of the Jerusalem post.

    HC
    Israel is a democracy and in the past has shown clear examples that it can withdraw from territories and give back assets achieved by economical or military conquest in the bid to achieve peace. Back in 1948 they were willing to accept the country slit in half with the Palestinian state and yet the Arabs decided to launch a full out invasion. They also withdrew from the Sinai a Peninsula rich with gas deposits and you could easily interrupt the Suez Canal from there by land, even Sharon a hard liner in his last days was showing sings of this when he order the expulsion of settlements and the withdrawal from Gaza (then Hamas got voted in).

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @73

    What, do we have to go through the whole thing yet again? What you are describing is the Dahiya doctrine. I understand perfectly well what that is. Just in case you weren't paying attention, here is a perfectly clear expression of it from the Israeli press quoting its original author.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3605863,00.html

    What's not to understand here?

    The next thing I understand is that this is exactly the doctrine Israel is applying in Gaza right now, as well as in two previous operations. Who's contesting that? Are you? I'm not. It's bleeding obvious to me every time I turn on the TV.

    The next thing I understand after that, is that this is not what Israeli spokesmen are telling me they're doing. I've seen a whole bunch of them now in three different languages on four different national TV networks, and not one single one of them has admitted that all civilians are to be regarded as accomplices and it serves them right for voting for Hamas. They all say that civilian casualties and damage to civilian infrastructure are either an unfortunate mistake or regrettable collateral damage, or somebody else's fault, or something. Anything but admit the doctrine both authorises and requires it.

    And finally I also understand why this is so. It's because the Dahiya doctrine is quite clearly a breach of international law and a war crime under the Geneva Conventions. You might argue that it's justified by the nature of the conflict, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a prima facie breach of the law as it stands. Or in other words, a war crime. The UN said exactly the same thing about Cast Lead, by the way, and I don't see anything different this time round. Do you?

    And as for “mowing the lawn”, I already gave you a perfectly clear reference from the Israeli press. Here it is again. “Mowing the lawn” is the headline! What don't you understand here?

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3605863,00.html

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Ohh boy!! Do you expect the Israeli spokesmen to say this to the media… Imagine trying to explain this to the world if it takes me days to explain this to you.
    Besides of lacking the ability to comprehend what you read, you don’t understand the difference between what is really official, what is off the record and what is common language to what is not in their control.

    That YT video shows the exact same links to the Jerusalem post where you have lifted these concepts from. It’s clear that all this is just made up stuff of little pieces of statements in social media and you have bought it.

    Do you know how many Geneva conventions laws Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS and so many others broke ?? FFS

    You keep on failing to provide any credible alternative as to how Israel should proceed whith these terrorist that attack them with rockets and mortars.

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    75
    The links I posted weren't from the Jerusalem Post, they were from ynet. Imagine the same link should turn up in different searches!

    Thanks for the video though. Did you see the link to an article in Journal of Strategic Studies by Professor Efraim Inbar and Dr Eitan Shamir? “Mowing the Grass : Israel’s strategy in the twenty-first century against hostile non-state groups, reflects the assumption that Israel finds itself in a protracted intractable conflict. The use of force in such a conflict is not intended to attain impossible political goals, but a strategy of attrition designed primarily to degrade the enemy capabilities. Only after showing much restraint in its military responses does Israel act forcefully to destroy the capabilities of its foes, hoping that occasional large-scale operations have a temporary deterrent effect in order to create periods of quiet along its borders.“ It goes on to describe how the strategy has been implemented in Gaza and Lebanon.

    Can we now agree the strategy exists, and is called the ”Mowing the Lawn”.

    Thanks also for agreeing at last that Israeli spokesmen aren't telling the truth, as I first stated about 65 messages ago.

    I don't know how many Geneva Conventions Hamas, ISIS and so many others broke. Probably lots. But it doesn't follow that Israel hasn't broken any. And none of the others are currently trying to tell me they're the most moral army in the world, or expecting my government to support the bombardment of women and children.

    I already explained once how I think Israel should proceed. See my twitter friend The Economist. http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21608752-any-ceasefire-will-be-temporary-unless-israel-starts-negotiating-seriously?fsrc=scn/tw_ec/stop_the_rockets_but_lift_the_siege

    But I believe that Israel actually prefers land to peace.

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 71 Heisenbergcontext

    It seems like the influence won out like I thought: US sends replacement ammunition supplies to Israel.

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 09:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    A brief summary of the Muslim world...

    OK, SO THE MUSLIMS ARE NOT HAPPY !
    They're not happy in Gaza ...In Egypt...in Libya...in Morroco... in Iran...
    in Iraq ...in Yemen...in Afghanistan...in Pakistan...in Syria...and in Lebanon...
    SO, WHERE ARE THEY HAPPY?
    They're happy in Australia...Canada...England...France...Italy...Germany...Sweden..USA...Norway...Holland...and Denmark.

    Basically, they're happy in every country that is not Muslim
    and unhappy in every country that is...

    AND WHO DO THEY BLAME?
    Not Islam.
    Not their leadership.
    Not themselves.

    THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN !

    and THEN, They want to change those countries to be like....
    THE COUNTRY THEY CAME FROM WHERE THEY WERE UNHAPPY!

    Excuse me, but I can't help wondering...
    How damn “thick” can you be ??

    Everyone seems to be wondering why Muslim Terrorists are so quick to commit suicide.
    Lets have a look at the evidence:
    - No Christmas
    - No television
    - No nude women
    - No football
    - No pork chops
    - No hot dogs
    - No burgers
    - No beer
    - No bacon
    - Rags for clothes
    - Towels for hats
    - Constant wailing from some idiot in a tower
    - More than one wife
    - More than one mother-in-law
    - You can't shave
    - Your wife can't shave
    - You can't wash off the smell of donkey
    - You cook over burning camel shit
    - Your wife is picked by someone else for you
    - Your wife smells worse than your donkey
    Then they tell you that “when you die, it all gets better”??

    Well no sh*t, Sherlock!....
    It's not like it could get much worse...

    Jul 31st, 2014 - 09:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    What you keep on failing to understand over and over is that it’s not a deliberate strategy but a imposed reality in which Israel is set to act upon. Read it again and again as well as the Generals statements.
    You simply read the first paragraph of the pdf file and understood what you wanted too.

    “Israel realizes that it cannot affect the motivation of the non-state
    actors – such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hizballah – to fight the
    Jewish State in the short run, and that producing deterrence against
    them is problematic. Yet, its use of force could reduce the military
    capabilities of the non-state actors in order to lower the damage caused
    to Israel. It just ‘mows the grass’ of the enemy capabilities, with no
    ambition to solve the conflict. It also attempts to achieve some deterrence
    to extend the time between the rounds of violence. Periods of
    tranquility are important for Israel because its mere existence is a
    success over its radical non-state enemies and sends them a constant
    reminder that their destructive goals are not within reach. The longer
    the absence of violence along its borders, the lower the price Israel pays
    for being engaged in such a protracted conflict. Ironically, ‘Mowing the
    Grass’ mirrors the patient Arab Muqawamah strategy.”

    The hard reality for you is there is no solution to the conflict anytime in our generations… Why does Hamas fire rockets at Israel ?? Because there is a wall between them nodays. The rockets of today used to be suicide bombings in the past. And they have stopped ever since the wall is in place, now rockets will stop with Iron dome. What the terrorist come up with next is unknown

    “The critics of Israel’s use of force share a
    common Western cultural bias that aspires for solutions to end military
    conflict. The idea that the Arab-Israeli conflict is a prolonged
    intractable conflict that evolved over 100 years and might continue
    for a long while is simply intolerable to many Westerners”

    Aug 01st, 2014 - 12:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @80

    So once again you seem to think you're contesting what I've said, but in fact you're confirming it. I've been saying again and again there is no ambition to solve the conflict. Can I take it now you agree?

    But it's absurd to state that “mowing the lawn” is imposed. It's not like Moses came down the mountain with it written on tablets of stone and told everybody it's this or else. It's a deliberate choice arising from a certain perception of reality, and that perception is that it's not possible to make peace.

    But why is it not possible to make peace? Israel has made peace with Jordan, and peace with Egypt. Egypt is even actively supporting it in its current iteration of mowing the lawn. All the members of the Arab League are ready to recognise Israel if the borders are settled and some deal is made for the refugees. Why aren't deals like this taken up?

    It's because since the 1980s and in particular the influx of around 1 million Russians after Shamir persuaded the Americans to stop granting them refugee visas, Israel has been in the hands of extremists whose main aim is to consolidate and expand the occupation, who deny any legitimacy to the Palestinian grievance, and who choose to treat them instead in a way which only an idiot could believe won't result in violence. But there is nothing inevitable about this at all. It's a choice they have made. Given a choice between land and peace, they have chosen land. It's easy for them when they are the stronger party. Why choose peace when every so often you can bomb the shit out of anything that moves or doesn't?

    This conflict since the 1920s has always boiled down to one simple question: which terrorists are you going to support? You've obviously made your choice, but I choose neither. If this is Western cultural bias, then so be it, I'm happy with it.

    But thanks again this time for confirming something else I've said, that Israel does not share Western values. That's crystal clear from the last para.

    Aug 01st, 2014 - 06:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext

    @73 CD2

    Thanks for the reply & information. Yes, Israel is a democracy. A unique one though. No Israeli politician who aspires to the highest reaches of power is going to get there by advocating a peaceful approach to the Palestinian question. Tzipi Livni was interviewed by an Aussie journalist a few days ago and looked acutely comfortable when asked whether she thought the current invasion was justified. She is being asked to sell a strategy she doesn't believe in. And she was a colonel in the IDF. Not a shrinking violet.

    I think if the Palestinians knew what was in store for them in the next 65+ years they might have accepted the UN proposal. Would Israel have been content with their share for long? I wonder...

    I agree with the last para you quote @79. I would suggest though, that given the consequences aren't limited to Israeli's & Palestinians the West's expectations aren't unreasonable.

    @77 Chris R

    Yes I was aware of this development. Thanks for the reminder. Some further information you might be interested in:

    From today's edition of The Australian: “US officials also warned that patience with ”crazy“ Israeli criticism of would-be peacemaker John Kerry had snapped.”
    Israel is pushing it's luck.

    Aug 01st, 2014 - 07:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    80.
    Dear lord.

    No wonder your country is so bent over backwards to the Muslims….Are you a Muslim?? Is your daughter or sister married to one while if your son or your brother gets threatened for having an affair with a Muslim woman, and then she is cut to pieces in an honor murder??
    What kind of coffee do your slutty British women take it lately, Arabic or just black???
    Man you are so daft and stupid in your little politically correct bubble in England and don’t have a slightest idea of how the real world is.
    What authority do you have as a Brit to condemn Israel how to behave when they don’t have the same problems with their Muslims communities within Israel as you do??

    Here is a clue, buffoon. It’s not a perfect world, it never was. Islam is a totalitarian ideology and form of life. And there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO CHANGE THIS...Even if ISRAEL NO LONGER existed and a Palestinian state governed over the holy lands, almost immediately a war with Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Jordan will start the next day the state is declared.

    Why is it that you can’t understand the concept that these non-state organizations are terrorists and that Israel is only acting in response to them?
    The whole history of Israel, as its borders and geography how it all came to be is the consequence of a series of Arab aggressions since more than half a century.

    Read the entire pdf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Why is it so hard for you to understand that if they are showered by rockets from the Gaza strip they will wait for the Hamas capacities to be destroyed as much as they can be for the longest of time.
    Otherwise what option does Israel have??? Just have to have an F-15 flying over and bombing each site where a rocket is launched from every single day. It would be a permanent low density war where Hamas’s capabilities are able to grow and accumulate over time and remain un challenged and more people will die perhaps.

    Aug 01st, 2014 - 05:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    Oh dear.

    It's called “cognitive dissonance”. Some people just can't handle their world view being challenged. If all you've got left is some racist abuse about British women and endless regurgitation of what you've already said but failed to grasp, then I guess we've reached that point.

    Therefore, by this new house rule I've just invented, I declare myself the winner.

    Have a nice weekend.

    Aug 01st, 2014 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    LOL, believe you me… You are very far from challenging my world view… In fact I take your last post as a sovereign default like CFKs and a capitulation…You just choose to play the offended because it’s much more comfortable for you than accepting the reality of my post

    These 2 simple questions I will dare you to answer and I will declare you a winner if you do so succesfully

    What should Israel do in order to defend itself from the rocket attacks of Hamas???

    What authority do you have as a Brit to condemn Israel how to behave when they don’t have the same problems with their Muslims communities within Israel as you do??

    Aug 01st, 2014 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 84 CabezaDura2

    Is Hans a Brit? Where did that come from?

    BTW I'm with you on this. :o)

    Aug 01st, 2014 - 08:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @84

    It's OK, I'm not offended. I can imagine how frustrating it must be to think of all these Muslims getting more than you. Why, I bet there's billions of them bonking away even as we speak, what with all these harems they have and everything. But I suppose we can reassure ourselves a little that all the time they're bonking they're probably not plotting to murder us all in our beds. Unless maybe they take it in shifts? Oh shit! What a coordination nightmare that must be, with all these countries, time zones, and languages! No wonder it's all in Arabic. We probably should just bomb the crap out of all of them, just to be on the safe side. That'll show them how civilised we are, compared to them.

    Now, before I go to hide under the bed, the two questions. The first I've actually answered several times already, but I will answer it again, even if it is moot. It's clear now that Netanyahu is in a real bind. He needs a bloodbath for domestic purposes, but the bloodier it gets, the more he exposes Israeli state terror for what it is. Even the Americans are getting nervous. The second question at least is new, but it's based on a whole host of completely bizarre assumptions that will need a message in their own right, so I will come back to that later after I've gouged the eyes out of a sheep or something.

    What should have been done for sanity to prevail is the following 1) Israel release the 1000 people it's rounded up on the West Bank for a crime they didn't commit 2) both sides immediate ceasefire 3) international peacekeepers in Gaza to supervise destruction of tunnels etc (cf UN mission in Sinai, which I believe is still there) 3) raise the blockade, under international supervision, and allow normal economic life. Stop treating Gaza as a hostage pen to be culled whenever it suits Israel's strategic or domestic agenda 4) restart a definitive process, maybe Oslo accords, Camp David, 2002 Arab League plan 5) elections in Gaza 6) Israeli & Hamas assholes to the ICC

    Aug 01st, 2014 - 10:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    PMSL….Why would I feel jealous or want to fuck your sluts that bear no dignity and neither self respect nor education that have slept with 40 stone aged monkeys by the age of 20??
    Ohh and then they end up chopped in pieces stupid ignorant bitches.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062095/Laura-Wilson-stabbed-death-married-Asian-lover-rejected-child.html

    Siege?? what siege you want Israel to lift???… Behind all this cry baby act the fact is that the Palestinian territories are the most heavily aided economies and populations of the planet.
    If Israel wanted them out of these lands it simply has to constrain the life support
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062095/Laura-Wilson-stabbed-death-married-Asian-lover-rejected-child.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062095/Laura-Wilson-stabbed-death-married-Asian-lover-rejected-child.html
    Since the end of 2000, Arab states have transferred to the Palestinian Authority monthly financial aid of $45 million (since April 2002 this sum was increased to $55 million). The European Union (EU) transfers to the PA approximately $9 million monthly. By the end of 2001, the Palestinians had received $4 billion (the figure is now closer to $5.5 billion) since the 1993 Oslo agreements.

    And they don’t pay the electricity bills they owe Israel provides them!

    And what happens when you put the UN and the charity organizations to deliver the aid. Hamas steals the supplies and distributes them to make political use of them.
    So why would Israel trust the UN for its own protection?? Most of the countries in the UN are against it and I seriously doubt if the UN peacekeeping force has the capacity to monitor the situation and act professionally and swiftly to deter Hamas as well as preventing the inflow of weapons into the strip with all those volumes of aid that they receive.
    Elections in Gaza?? I don’t think Israel is stopping t

    Aug 02nd, 2014 - 12:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @88

    I see. So it's perfectly OK for Israel to e.g bomb a Catholic school for handicapped children, because of who's fucking who in England? You should get Nostril in here, that's truly worthy of him. Funny you should quote the Daily Mail too. Even that horror comic for the middle classes has come out against Israel. Max Hastings, of all people (“I've always loved Israel but this brutality is breaking my heart”).

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2703531/MAX-HASTINGS-Ive-loved-Israel-brutality-breaks-heart.html

    In fact pretty much the only people left aggressively supporting Israel are racist bigots, often with a peculiar sexual fixation on who's fucking who. This really is a sea change. It's what did for the Boers in the end. Military mighty they certainly were, no doubt about that, but decent people just didn't want anything to do with them any more. This is where Netanyahu and co have led Israel. It's a catastrophe, in my view, and one that everybody will be dragged into. There's a typically objective piece in this week's Economist.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2703531/MAX-HASTINGS-Ive-loved-Israel-brutality-breaks-heart.html

    Has it occurred to you that the reason Gaza receives aid is because it is denied normal economic life? In fact, according to the Economist above, the EU is talking of stopping aid, on the grounds that legally Israel is still an occupier, and legally it's up to Israel to provide for the occupied population.

    For the rest you ignore as ever the wider context. You're probably right nothing now can stop the bloodbath, but the fact remains that until this operation, Hamas was a spent force, all the members of the Arab League were ready to recognise Israel, Israel has alliances with its most powerful neighbour Egypt, with the US and EU (now in jeopardy) and that there have been successful UN missions supporting peace in the Sinai, Golan & Lebanon. There could have been peace, Israel chose otherwise

    Aug 02nd, 2014 - 09:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    You are mixing apples and oranges but the fact is that I have a profound point and you are completely unable to address it because you come from a country that is so PC that debates are won by the first one that picks and manipulates the others statements and calls the racist card. You think you are free, but you are not free of mind and not free to voice your opinion.
    That is what people like Toby abuse when he goes into ranting with you guys. It would be very easy and basic for me to call out racist to all those who make negative comments about Argentina, But I’m far more honest and intelligent for that.

    Does the Daily Mail lie? That story is true, and it portraits exactly how your country has been given away to these savages. In fact the DM is labeling the Muslim as an “Asian” why should a citizen from the most successful countries in the world right now like Japan, South Korea or Singapore fit in the same label than these monkeys??? Because I bet the editors can’t even write “Muslim”.

    As Chinese proverb says “He who rides a Tiger is afraid to dismount”. And that is the situation you as a country are in; you are just in denial and lying to yourselves.

    This was all predicted in the CIA briefings for Europe in the next 20 years back in 2005. All US intelligence analysts predict Europe is going to become a poorer nasty place with cultural clashes. And they are problematic people, they really are I’m not saying that you should go and bomb them all but noticing this I wouldn’t want any of them in my country, this is backed by real statistical evidence not your dreams and PC rubbish.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPtIYM8JRwI

    So no wonder as immigration into Europe continues, they make the laws, subject the locals and establish their propaganda machine Israel finds itself increasingly isolated.
    It’s your fault and your choice so don’t make any excuses and most off all don’t expect Israel to behave the same cowardly and condescending way like you do

    Aug 02nd, 2014 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    That's funny, I thought it was my opinion I was voicing. And the thing is, some of those advancing negative comments about Argentina actually are racists, it's perfectly obvious. There's no reason you shouldn't call them out for what they are. Meanwhile you're calling people “monkeys” and complaining I think you're a racist?

    And I never said the Daily Mail lies. It's always trying to whip up hysteria about one thing or another, but that's not the same as lying. You hear less about Muslims these days not because the editor can't write in, but because the main targets these days aren't even Muslims, it's Roma, Romanians, and Bulgarians. Comically, you also find plenty of Muslim and other immigrants complaining about these people in exactly the same way that white racists used to complain about Asians. But for most people, a Muslim is the bloke that runs the corner shop, and that's about all there is to it. Even Tommy Robinson, founder of the Islamophobic EDL came round to that view (before he got jailed for mortgage fraud, lol).

    Otherwise, the vast majority of murders committed in the UK are committed by white Christians. The most prolonged terrorist campaign, much deadlier than anything the Islamofascists have managed, lasted about a century and was effected for the most part by Irish and Northern Irish Catholics. Yet there was never any question of unleashing the Navy, the RAF, heavy armour and artillery on the republican areas of Belfast and Derry, regardless of anybody else who might be in there at them. And that's just as well, because if we'd just relied on indiscriminate mowing the lawn, we'd still be up to our necks in Semtex. Likewise in Spain, ETA killed many more than Muslims ever did, and let's not even mention that sicko Breivik in Norway.

    Israel, meanwhile, if I'm not mistaken and according to you, has no problem with its domestic muslim population?

    Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Yes some of them are but the vast majorities are not… Why will I throw a fuss about each and every one of them comments or overanalyze them to accuse them of racism?? I know what I’m worth as an individual and I don’t have an inferiority complex that needs to be attended by accusing of racist those who are actually raising valid points about Argentina’s flaws.

    I don’t give a damn about you calling me a racist or not, I just don’t care, I don’t live by the same guilt code as you do. I tell things how they simply are.

    And rightly so the DM raises these questions for indeed Rumanians and Albanians control the most notorious crime rings in Europe. However Eastern Europeans don’t condom terrorism nor think is justified, nor profess strong loyalty to their religion whether it be catholic or orthodox (neither less to say those religions are far more benign and advanced in their teachings and moral codes than Islam is, don’t let me even get started with that one) over their host country…Unfortunately the shopman in the corner has some dirty little secrets and you are apologizing him, because you are a dishonest condescending coward. That is what these polls have shown and there is many more.

    And I do feel sorry for you I really do.

    Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    One of the definitions of stupidity is the inability to make distinctions.

    In this regard, it makes about the same sense to maintain that all Muslims are Osama bin Laden as it does to say that all Protestants are Anders Breivik. Or to say that because some Argentines are thieves, all Argentines are thieves. Anybody with a brain in their head knows this isn't true, and even some with half a brain are able to figure it out.

    By your own admission there are no or few Muslims in your own country, and I am starting to suspect that you have never actually encountered one yourself or you would know a little better. If you think that the only Asians that are industrious are those from Japan or South Korea or Singapore you have evidently never set foot anywhere in Asia. You should get out a bit more. You have a cartoon view of the world that demeans you. You're eaten up with an irrational fear of something you have neither experience nor understanding of, you can't handle your opinion being questioned, you can't bring yourself to call a thing by its proper name, and you're calling me a dishonest, condescending coward?

    Grow up a bit. If you can make an objective assessment of your own country, you should be able to make on objective assessment of others.

    Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    92
    I would like to you to know how dull and just self righteous predictable PC rubbish…
    You just can’t accept facts as they are, you don’t want to even see the horrifying statistics and polls of what the vast majority of Muslims think.
    Are gays and other minorities persecuted in Japan?? NO
    Is there freedom of expression in South Korea?? YES
    Are women able and allowed to marry freely and drive in Singapore?? YES
    Is Taiwan a democracy?? YES
    None of that applies to the vast majority of Muslim countries and all of them are exclusive to all these aspects at once.
    These are just FACTS and you come and say to me “One of the definitions of stupidity is the inability to make distinctions.” So I guess that is what defines you.

    ”In Russia live Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer Sharia Law, and live the life of Muslims then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Russia does not need Muslim minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'. We will not tolerate disrespect of our Russian culture. We had better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Muslims are taking over those countries and they will not take over Russia. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of Sharia Law and Muslims. When this honorable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the Russian national interest first, observing that the Muslim minorities are not Russians.

    President Vladimir Putin
    Address to the Duma 4/08/2014

    All that applied to the Muslims that immigrated to Argentina over a century ago.

    Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    I see you know as litt about Japan as you do about the UK.

    A certain leftie pinko PC UK rag reports:

    ”The diverse mix of opinions reminds us that Islamic attitudes are shaped partly by the central tenets of the faith but also by national culture and historic experience – they are not a monolith. Where there’s been more war and more upheaval, attitudes seem to be considerably more conservative. Where there’s been a longer period of peace and a more constructive experience of democracy, there’s a definite liberal bent. Moreover, while there’s a commitment to theologically-inspired ethics surrounding sex and womanhood there’s obviously a debate sizzling away about how far these should be matters of state policy or of conscience.
    We tend to obsess in the West about the rise of radicalism and the political influence of Islamism. We have every right to, considering the number of terrorist atrocities committed by fundamentalists. But we also shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that we really are talking here about a (albeit significant) minority of militants and not a common “Muslim attitude”. Of course, we should remain savvy about the enormous cultural gulfs that does exist between us – globally, Muslims are not enthusiastic about secularism and they might understand “democracy” as something guided by faith rather than constitutionally separated from it. But there’s plenty here to engage with and to find common ground over. Perhaps the most encouraging result from the Pew survey was the finding that Muslims are far more worried about Islamic attacks than any other kind of violence. They hate the buggers just as much as we do.”

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100214861/poll-of-global-muslims-finds-love-of-sharia-mixed-views-on-suicide-bombings-and-fear-of-islamism/

    And Putin ... it;s not surprising to find you defending another dictatorial aggressive expansionist racist, but rather ironic that it's probably the most anti-semitic country there is these days.

    Aug 03rd, 2014 - 07:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    94.

    I wouldn’t be surprised they fear each other, Do you know this people are still fixed since 1300 years in their version of the 30 years war???

    Do you really think I’m stupid as you are ¿? I feel like it’s as if I’m talking to a beaten wife in denial

    Do you understand why it’s so frustrating for an Argentine tourist to save his dollars to travel to Europe and finds himself in Pakistan or Sudan?

    Do you think your own middle class whites that go abroad don’t say the same things that fill your pages and pages media your social networks, documentaries and testimonies all over the internet??

    Do you think Intelligence services and analyst don’t see this as a real problem and source of instability, unrest and conflict??


    But I tell you what… Why don’t we just move all these poor Palestinians all of Gaza and the West Bank to Britain?? I’m sure you will receive them with open arms and your daughters with their panties down. And you will even be happy to pay for them. You can put Hamas leadership to be the chief editorialist of the Guardian and Huffington Post and their clerics to run their own sharia laws in each city.

    Just look at this Israeli documentary about how Muslims have taken over Europe
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYGI-lQBOYk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYGI-lQBOYk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYGI-lQBOYk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYGI-lQBOYk

    This is how Israel sees this. So don’t expect they will even here a single word from you after you have just given yourselves away to the Muslim way of life.

    I mean as Jews are going to become more persecuted all over Europe, as anti Semitism rises they will need more lands, so after all they will end up having to return to Israel and they will need more land. Palestinians can go to like over 50 Muslim countries that already exist and Western Europe.

    I think this is the solution that will make everyone happy.

    Aug 03rd, 2014 - 03:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    Gosh, it really is a scandal that we're not running our continent to suit the sensibilities of Argentine tourists. I had no idea.

    And still with the fixation on who's fucking who? I mean, I do understand that a taste for violence and political extremism tend to be linked to what we might call sexual issues, be it maybe inadequacy, frustration, repression, or just simple jealousy among those left out of the party. But you really don't have to keep bringing it up. I do sympathise. I even read a thing in the Guardian saying it's OK to admit these things these days. I won't laugh, I promise. Not any more, anyway.

    It's an interesting idea to move all the Palestinians to the UK, but curiously unlike these hordes of Muslims you have identified trying to take us over, they just want their own country back. Or maybe just a bit of it. And we surely don't want to offend the jihadi element of the population by bringing in people who don't want to conquer us.

    I've got a better idea. Why don't we propose a new Jewish homeland in Patagonia? I mean, it's pretty empty there, the original inhabitants have all been exterminated already, saving a huge amount of work and dollars, and Argentina could sure use extra capital and expertise to help develop the country. This is what the Arabs were told back in the 1930s, and look how ungrateful they turned out to be at the opportunity being offered them. I'm sure you would be much less stupid, as you keep telling me you're not. You might get some objections from the Nazi element and sympathisers in the population of course, but you could always just put them on Martin Garcia and bombard them every now and again, or something. I doubt if anybody much would care.

    Did you see this when it was in the Times of Israel? “When Genocide is Permissible”. You'd kind of think a Jewish person would have the answer to that one right there at their fingertips.

    http://gawker.com/here-is-an-israeli-paper-column-titled-when-genocide-i-1614631309

    Aug 03rd, 2014 - 04:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    It’s the reality, the thing that you don’t understand is that we don’t see nor bend over like you do.

    You may buy a kebab downtown every single day, but you clearly don’t have the slightest clue about what the guy that is serving your kebab thinks believes or what his political views are.

    You may find Argentines here in denial about many things related to crime, economic performance, rule of law, governance, etc. But you are no better than they are when it comes to admitting the deep cultural and demographic problems your country faces.

    Again, I don’t care what your slutty women do; they seem to be happy about it and you permissive about I think but I think you are being far too picky on that which my comments go far beyond that point , so I reckon that it really does touch a nerve what I’m saying.
    And it DOES go far beyond what my supposed sexual frustrations (if that was the case and makes you feel better) or yours?? ... Because the fact that their women are not allowed crossing and mixing with others that are not Muslim while their men can take which ever women they like and use them like little hos or if they actually do marry outside the woman has to convert to Islam is a very openly aggressive form discrimination and demographic grab. And that is the hard truth. But you will not want to see it.
    This is why their populations rise so rapidly apart from the fact they immigrate and have higher birth rates than the locals. This is one of the reasons they will rise to 15% of total population by 2030 and rising!

    I don’t understand why you don’t feel as an idiot, or perhaps you do, you are just looking the other way trying to save face. Dont know but im sure anybody in Argentina give the boot to any minority that takes as like fools like they way you are being treated.

    Anyway…
    There was no such thing as a Palestinian country EVER… So you can start sending your Oxfam fleet to Gaza to pick them up.

    Aug 03rd, 2014 - 05:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    That's funny. Somebody should have told the League of Nations there was no such thing as Palestine, maybe then they wouldn't have given a mandate to the Brits to govern it. And maybe if it had stayed with the much less wimpy Ottomans we wouldn't be having this 'discussion' in the first place, and I'd have to be getting my dose of surrealism elsewhere.

    I mean, how else would I get an evident neurotic with unresolved sexual issues, from a racially purified state with a recent fascist past some 8000 miles away, telling me what's in the head of a bloke down the road that I've known for years? On the basis of something he's read on the Internet?

    And how else would I find a salesman in New York, member of the people who suffered the worst genocide ever contemplated, arguing that genocide is perfectly OK just so long as it happens to someone else?

    And how else could I could come across a Deputy Speaker of the Knesset proposing to set up concentration camps in the desert? (https://www.facebook.com/MFeiglin/posts/695450140534104)

    That's why I like mercopress. I hear things here you could barely make up.

    Aug 03rd, 2014 - 10:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    You really have a problem with accepting FACTS POLLS AND REALITY… You prefer to brand this as some internet invention.

    Btw look what come up today in LNOL, 9 out of 10 current wars have the religion of Merciful Allah directly involved.

    http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1715324-un-mundo-turbulento-las-diez-guerras-que-hacen-de-2014-un-ano-peligroso
    Look what free thinking Argentines say in the comment section…

    There was never a Palestinian state It’s like Patagonia, Antarctica or the Amazons, it’s just a name for which to call a geographical space… It could have been called the Levant, the Holy Land they are no political entities. The French and British created other chimeras like Lebanon, or Jordan in the same way.
    Why should the Jews come to Argentina to waste their time and money when they already have a successful efficient functioning democracy in the Middle East while none of its neighbors are a screw up?

    How about foreign aid for each ID interception that costs 50000 US$?

    I take the piss out of you and you respond that I have sexual issues because the Guardian says that if the Muslims or whoever are banging all your women and taking advantage of you, the problem is your own sexual health!!! Unbelievable, that they even have figured that one.

    Jesus… What a sad broken country expropriated of its mojo. You seem like a castrated nation simply accepting an ideological dictatorship imposed by the media, judicial system, mainstream culture and politicians. You see peoples that don’t accept your form of governance and thinking as fascists, discriminators and nazi like Israel, Russia or Argentina. You just have no soul apart from a brain of course.

    And why do you tourists like so much Latinamerica ?? Because they always say it’s a strong and vibrant culture, and obviously that is because your countries with all the positive stuff they have are ultimately empty and soulless PC entities. No deep cultural character in them. Sad, very sad and pathetic.

    Aug 03rd, 2014 - 11:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ilsen

    Wow. Quite a debate raging here!
    :)
    Carry on.

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 12:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    98...About concentration camps… Maybe they should ask the Egyptians, Jordanians, Lebanese and Syrians how to deal with them. After all they have kept generations of Palestinian refugees living in concentration camps along the borders without giving them not even citizenship or rights.

    The people of Gaza choose Hamas overloardship (now underworldship LOL! http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/08/israel-hamas-gaza-defeat-achievements-siege-tunnel-idf.html) every single day either by direct support or by neglect. I don’t see anybody complain in the UN against the occupation of Gaza by Hamas but a lot of fingers pointing towards Israel. Why don't the Palestinians oust them from power?? I don’t see anybody in the UN complain about the provision of Grad rockets by Iran by that matter of fact either.

    Polls have shown that over 95% of Palestinians deny Israel's right to exist. There is nothing that anyone can do until these people learn how to tolerate the Jews. If they accept to be human shields and corpses used as propaganda tools by Hamas, it’s their own choice by default.

    FFS, give me a break. No solution is possible with these people at this height of the problem. The Palestinians should be fit in some other Arab country or fill the hoods of the Caliphate of Great Britanistan.
    Anyway I found this very cool blogspot Huffington Post monitor LOL!!!
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/08/israel-hamas-gaza-defeat-achievements-siege-tunnel-idf.html)
    This is a great reply to the Anti Isreali campaign led by the British Muslim Mehdi Hansan from the Guardian and HP that you cited a few days ago those famous 10 myths … enjoy !
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/08/israel-hamas-gaza-defeat-achievements-siege-tunnel-idf.html)

    PS... Is this Hasan scumbag doing your daughter ???

    ;-)

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 03:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    I really would have thought that a supporter of Zionism and citizen of a former colony would be able to understand the difference between a state and a nation, but I have also noted that it's a common difficulty among the intellectually challenged.

    Some people do need to work with a drastically simplified version of the world
    if they are to develop any understanding of it all. Your idea that 9 out of 10 current conflicts are caused by Islam is a good example of this. It's about as reasonable as claiming that the Falklands war was a conflict between Catholics and Protestants. Indeed, when you think of it, virtually all the truly nasty wars of the 20th century, holocaust and everything, were the work of Christians, not to mention previous episodes such as the Crusades and the Spanish inquisition.

    It's interesting as well that you cite in the same breath Argentina, Russia and Israel, three countries with a recent or current track record of aggression against a much weaker neighbour, and a recent or current track record of practicing state terror. It's not a good set of benchmarks, in my view, but I guess there's still North Korea and the Hutus of Rwanda left among the non-Muslim freethinkers.

    And still with the sexual angle. You seem to think you're offending me with that, but you're only demonstrating that your position is fundamentally non-rational and driven by some more atavistic impulse. I'm sorry that jerking off seems to have failed for you.

    ;-)

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 07:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Im not a supporter of Zionism, Im a supporter of Israel and reason and logic… you fucking retard..
    I don’t even know nor care what Zionism is apart from a typical cliché accusations of anti Semites use

    “Some people do need to work with a drastically simplified version of the world
    if they are to develop any understanding of it all.”
    Yes indeed and these people must deny all FACTS, POLLS, NUMBERS and REALITY in order to keep on living in the same bubble and to up hold your world view imposed by your PC non-country.
    It’s amazing and pathetic how you look the other way. We are now well into the XXI Century and clearly the only ones who still don’t get it is the Muslims. You just refuse to accept reality; you are like a beaten wife.

    “you're only demonstrating that your position is fundamentally non-rational and driven by some more atavistic impulse”

    FFS HN, I have completely owned in all possible ways as regards to the Palestinian Israeli conflict, Israel’s right to defend itself in the way its doing, your own country given away and I even psychologically torn you apart and I end up having a laugh at you, buffoon. You are just relying on senseless nonsense because you don’t have anything else to back up your arguments with.

    I prefer a 100 Conquerors than one single HansNiesunds. Because one can tell who the real Englishman with character and pride is, but he is a dying race.

    You are as I said earlier just ridiculous condescending, empty coward.

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Leiard

    Islamic extremist impose reign of terror on Iraq

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/islamic-extremist-impose-reign-of-terror-on-iraq/2014/08/04/cb8b438e-1bf8-11e4-9b6c-12e30cbe86a3_story.html

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 05:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @103

    Thanks for the compliment, but it really wasn't necessary.

    Of course you're welcome to 100 Conquerors and any more you can come round to boot. Maybe you could bring in Anders Breivik as well and start your own Interahamwe? You could call it Islamophobic Jihad or something. That way there'd be no confusion as to the reason and logic behind it.

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 07:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    105

    Sure......
    When do you start payig your Jizya tax in the United Caliphat of Great Britanistan?? Or does you daughter pay that??

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 08:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @106

    I'll let you know, if you promise to hold your breath until it happens.

    I have learned some interesting things from this discussion though. It's quite obvious really, once you've spotted it, but it seems clear that Islam has replaced Judaism in the minds of those who would have been anti-semites a few years back. Of course this kind of thing is a psychological phenomenon rather than an intellectual one, and you can tell that from the repeated references to irrelevant sexual matters.Probably it will be Hindus or something next time round a few years from now. I guess the important thing is there has to be some kind of group to hate, it's less important who it is.

    I'm also struck by what a smart guy Mark Twain is. He's supposed to have said it's much easier to fool people than to convince them they've been fooled. He might have added that some people are so hard-headed they'll most likely be fooled all their life.

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Have you got anything substantial to add that has a point and is not your own bitch girly pc shit ??
    Or I seem to have forgot that you are a guardianist PC retard...Give it up you are so easy and so basic for me... Dont forget to donate for the Palestinian kids...LOL +

    Or the next generation of them that spring up as rabbits because these ones are already dead..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WWxSSQjJP8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WWxSSQjJP8

    Care less.

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @109

    Have you reached the hydrophobia stage yet? I'm told that's the worst.

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ilsen

    This maybe of interest to you guys;
    http://panampost.com/marcela-estrada/2014/07/31/latin-america-stand-against-israel-spirals-into-verbal-tit-for-tat/
    ..just some background/effects...

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Pfff....

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @110

    Quite interesting, though the headline bears little relation to the article.

    European governments are also starting to move, though it's not before bloody time.

    http://forward.com/articles/203442/britain-may-halt-arms-sales-to-israel-over-gaza/?
    http://forward.com/articles/203442/britain-may-halt-arms-sales-to-israel-over-gaza/?
    http://forward.com/articles/203442/britain-may-halt-arms-sales-to-israel-over-gaza/?

    Of course, why else but anti-semitism would anybody object to Israel bombarding the defenceless by land, sea and air?

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    110.
    Chavista anti Israeli crusade is not new, as is Venezuela's alliance with Islamic terror movements and Iran, but it will start to recede in time as Maduros gov't falls apart.
    Colombia holds a very good relation with Israel and has been very balanced so far compared to the other Latam left wing axis.

    Marine Le Pen will not stand by any kind of nonsense like that when shes in power.

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 112 HansNiesund

    But they are not defenceless are they?

    Where do all the rockets come from?

    Why do Hamas hide behind their “own” people?

    Why are their “own” people so stupid to stand for Hamas putting them at risk?

    Answers on the back of a postage stamp.

    Hamas kept kicking the big dog's nose and throwing bangers in it's face and now they are crying because the big dog is kicking their arse. Bit stupid that, you can train a small child not to abuse a dog, but not Hamas the rat it seems.

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    114.
    Hamas depends of throwing a fight each 2 or 3 years to keep up international attention and the propaganda machine against Israel well refurbished. We already know what they done with all the aid they have being receiving from UNRWA, they have made a vast and complex tunnel network beneath the Gaza strip. The rockets are coming from Iran. They go round the Arabian Peninsula into the Red Sea, the Sinai and into the Gaza strip. Now that the Muslim brotherhood is out of Egypt and the army is back in control it may become harder to keep the inflow of rockets to the strip.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2JxEqq7y8c&list=UUZNjpcQLBx26W6lDWvpg7PQ

    Each rocket interception by Iron Dome costs up to 50.000 US$, per thousands of rockets fired per year from the Gaza strip but no UN aid, Oxfam nor any charity organization is going to pay for those

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @114

    Hamas considers civilians fair game and has killed 3. This is despicable.

    Israel considers civilians fair game and has killed about 1300, of which 300 children. This isn't despicable though. They're only junior ragheads and some of their elders kicked the big dog's nose after all.

    There is no credible report I'm aware of from anybody actually on the ground of Hamas using human shields. What there is, is evidence of indifference to civilian casualties. No doubt these also provide some propaganda value, but if that's all that's to it, you have to wonder why Israel is so enthusiastically doing exactly what Hamas wants.

    Meanwhile, there are reams of evidence of Israeli indifference to civilian casualties, to the extent that causing a disproportionate number of such casualties is official IDF doctrine, and the repeated application of this doctrine known as “mowing the grass”. There are plenty links to Israeli documents on these topics above, and even CD2 admits this is what is going on.

    Just in case anybody's interested in a non partisan analysis:
    http://www.vox.com/2014/7/30/5937119/palestinian-civilian-casualties-gaza-israel

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 11:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Hamas flags and supporters in Toronto. The opponents of Israel…. This guy could not have put it better

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZADDMS5Q78

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @115

    “Now that the Muslim brotherhood is out of Egypt and the army is back in control it may become harder to keep the inflow of rockets to the strip. ”

    I see you're agreeing with me again.

    Why do you think Israel has set out to strengthen Hamas when Hamas' strategic position was seriously degrading?

    Aug 04th, 2014 - 11:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Agreeing with you in what???

    tIf Israel was fully playing into Hamas the civilian casualty toll would be at the tens of thousands.. Israel is only defending itself in the only way it can with the very small space it diplonmatically has

    To see the useful tools who are playing into Hamas you only should look at yourself in the mirror or open your facebook or twitter page…. like in Syria for example nobody seems to care about the quarter millions that have died there yet no rag head in the streets of Stockholm, London or Paris is concerned about Boko Haram in Nigeria, Isis in Syria and Irak, Al Al-Shabbab in Somalia in, Seleka in CAR, AQIM all over the Sahara . The ones to be only committing genocide is Israel, the most professional and benign armed forces in military history.

    Fuck the religion of peace and all the islamophiles

    Aug 05th, 2014 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    You're agreeing with me that Hamas was in a failing strategic position already at the start of Operation Protective Edge.

    Now instead of being supplanted by the secular PLO, as was about to happen, it is being allowed to surf the greatest wave of revulsion there has yet been in the history of the Middle East conflict.

    I'm sure if Israel had chosen to turn its military might on ISIS, Boko Haram, and all those other nutjobs, nobody much would be complaining, certainly not me. It's a shame they chose the women & children of Gaza instead.

    Aug 05th, 2014 - 06:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    The PLO … I guess cows fly too. From where did you get that from ¿? Hamas has proven to have built a vast tunnel network beneath the Gaza strip and it has managed to have access to Israel now as well as stockpiling large quantities of rockets. The led a coup d ettat in 2006 against al-Fatah and since then they have ruled unchallenged over the strip.
    Now at least with the drones permanently over the strip there leaders are forced to exert control from underground and Egypt, KSA and Jordan have lost their patience with the Hamas. This last operation has left Hamas with no spin to bluff to the Gazeans, they have no victory to claim.
    Your last paragraph is simply out right stupid as unrealistic not even worth replying too.

    This is what I consider the ultimate proof there is no such thing as a “moderate” Islam..
    http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-or-islamophobia2

    I don’t understand what are the Europeans waiting for to shot them or kick them out of their countries

    Aug 05th, 2014 - 02:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    It's shocking, though, isn't it? Some of these people sound exactly like you. Or even members of the Knesset. I imagine pretty soon somebody's going to be trying to sell me the notion of benign bombardment of defenceless civilians (Islamic version). I won't be buying it from them either, though.

    And thanks again for confirming my point about Hamas' loss of support. Maybe next you'll even manage to grasp the really tricky one that condemnation of Israeli war crimes isn't the same as support for Islamic fundamentalism, or even for Hamas.

    But one step at a time ;-)

    Aug 05th, 2014 - 03:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Dont be stupid. I don’t think that me nor the Jews subscribe to death by stoning or women have to sit behind busses or medieval stuff like that. Don’t put as in the same level to them because we are not. If you are in denial it’s not my fault.

    Yes Hamas is losing support after Protective Edge…

    Have you just heard that???
    It’s the sound of a Palestinian baby blowing into pieces... As well as your arguments

    Aug 05th, 2014 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    “I don’t think that me nor the Jews subscribe to death by stoning or women have to sit behind busses or medieval stuff like that ...... Have you just heard that???
    It’s the sound of a Palestinian baby blowing into pieces...”

    And thank you yet once more for confirming my arguments. Sometimes it's like arguing with an echo.

    Aug 05th, 2014 - 04:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Another baby has just blown up!! ….Haven’t you yet even realized how easily mockable and laughable PC nut job islamophile I find you by now??

    What you fail to understand over and over is that I don’t live with the same guilt code as you do, I have a far larger picture and view of things as you do. I don’t have any kind of family bond or attachment with Islam nor anything Islamic nor I buy in to your kind of media and shallow thinking.

    Aug 05th, 2014 - 04:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    I'm sure the rest of the Hutus are very proud of you.

    Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    @HamasNiesund! *

    © CabezaDura2 2014
    LOL

    Aug 05th, 2014 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    LOL. That's quite funny. Funniest proof of my point so far, in fact.

    “@122 Hans Niesund
    Maybe next you'll even manage to grasp the really tricky one that condemnation of Israeli war crimes isn't the same as support for Islamic fundamentalism, or even for Hamas.”

    Aug 06th, 2014 - 08:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @110 Ilsen - the article you sent in the link, indeed interesting. Just goes to confirm that most Latin American countries are ruled by idiots. They all rush to condemn Isreael without even the slightest mention of the Hamas. And I suppose we are to believe that the Hamas hasn't been firing thousands of missiles into Israel (which, only haven't caused more damage/ deaths, because their aim is lousy) , that they are not a terrorist group, that all they want is peace and that they are only interested in the well-being of the population on the Gaza Strip....Quite the opposite, so much so, they are quite comfortable in using the population as human shields, to later claim that their attacks are met with disproportionate strength.... they have no real interest in peace....if that happened, they would have no reason to exist.

    Aug 06th, 2014 - 04:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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