MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Argentina doesn't need international credit, “we have foreign currency to face debt maturities”
Argentine Economy Minister Axel Kicillof has assured that the government of president Cristina Fernandez is not seeking international financing despite current economic problems, since it has foreign trade surpluses and all the foreign exchange needed to face debt maturities. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rules“The government is not against external financing, the problem are its sources, the conditions tied to ”
Oct 13th, 2014 - 08:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0So what you're saying is, you want a loan on the condition that you don't have to pay it back? How does that work?
Argentina doesn't need international credit, “we have foreign currency to face debt maturities”...
Oct 13th, 2014 - 09:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Then there is nothing to stop Argentina paying back the money they owe international lenders... RIGHT NOW.
Funny how there seems to be no hard currency to pay for natural gas though.
Desperation surfacing in the sea of reality.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 10:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0Every country in the world knows what a bunch of crooks the argies are, whether they support 'our claim to the Malvinas'.
Another week another fiasco for TDC. GREAT.
They don't like the conditions attached to it, what like paying it back with interest, no-one likes that but if needs must then heho. Pay back what you owe then negociate a new loan if possible.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0My gosh what a liar. It astounds me that the stupid and apathetic public lets these Kidiots get away with these fantasies time and again.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0I think there's something mentally wrong with most of the population in Argentina.
Maybe he needs to watch “Periodismo para Todos” to find out what is really going on. The national airline is losing 2 million per day...businesses are closing and people are losing their jobs because parts cannot be imported because there are NO dollars to pay for them. There are 3 ships full of gas sitting in the harbour that can't unload because payment has not been received. Then of course, maybe their plan is to take the dollars from savings account in the banks...not exactly a new concept.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 11:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0@5. Of course there's something mentally wrong with the retards. 'Viveza criolla'. Coupled with basic dishonesty, mendacity and stupidity. Still, never mind, they'll probably be dying from hyperthermia, hypothermia, starvation, AIDS and other efficient population restraints. The important thing is not to send 'aid'. No fuel, no energy, no food, no medication. Argieland, we are assured, doesn't need the rest of the world. Importantly, close the borders. No-one in, no-one out. I'm sure that the US can maintain that surveillance. And vector in 'discouraging' actions.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 11:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0I am sure the young fella is right, he looks so trustworthy, it must be the rest of the world and the markets that are wrong.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 12:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How do they define unemployment anyway?
Oct 13th, 2014 - 01:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They are paying subsidies and government salaries to a large number of people whose only function seems to be to either keep the unemployment numbers down or to organize rock-throwing mobs...
Oops posted this on the wrong thread...
Oct 13th, 2014 - 01:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Arg Federal Gov't employee count is higher than the USA!!
They've hired over 2MM people in the last 3 yrs!
Doomed.
How much of the rotting roadkill pension/retirement accounts are held in cash? rotting roadkill bonds?
Oct 13th, 2014 - 01:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If I remember correctly, Anses had about u$25B in hard assets that the Ks stole. They replaced the hard assets with Arg Peso/Dollar Bonds paying below inflation rate. They also forced Anses, Banks and the Ins companies to invest +/- 90% of their assets in Arg Companies and Bonds.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 01:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In effect all of them are already bankrupt.
Its one of the reasons they won't let the IMF audit.
They're doomed.
12. Thanks. What other specific accounts should we look for theft in? (All? lol)
Oct 13th, 2014 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The way they've always operated is once they have their eye on something valuable they regulate it and tax it into bankruptcy then take it FOR THE GOOD OF THE PEOPLE. They did it with the BA water company, Aerolinias Argentina, YPF and just about any company that had some hard assets they wanted to they needed a way to funnel more u$ out of the country.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 02:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Argentina plan was these last 10 years, living within our means, and not depend on foreign loans, trying to pay all the debt with international agencies (debt balance with the IMF and paying club paris, and payment is under 92% of creditors), and tries to develop the domestic industry with money generated in Argentina for their own export commodities.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course, this means isolated from the financial world, which obviously is frowned upon, especially by central countries.
But you will understand, that the resistance of Argentina to seek international loans due to bad experiences in the past, provided that foreign capital entering the country had speculative character.
The first years were successful due to high commodity prices, but the Argentine plan currently has problems and needs modifications (but carefully, we must not repeat the bad experiences of the 20th century)
#15
Oct 13th, 2014 - 03:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ditto!
Well said Hernan. No to more foreign dependency. Kicilloff for president. Arriba Argentina.
The last two replies are the best back-to-back responses in this otherwise forsaken and stygian noetic wasteland of a website in the last 36 months. Bravo, one had to await until two Argentines responded in concatenation to witness such an occurrence.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 03:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina must never again return to the financial markets, or at least not return to them ON THEIR TERMS. If we ever do decide to return, it should be on our terms.
No more friendship with the north, no more free-trade treaties with cheaters and arrant subsidizers, no more borrowing of debt to cover other debts.
The biggest canard of the 20th century, the modern idea that all nations MUST borrow, is coming to an end, and Argentina will be seen in 100 years as the cynosure and seminal point.
@14
Oct 13th, 2014 - 03:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Isn't that what Putin is doing in Russia?
Yes, the Argentine Plan needs some changed and it s must be “a total change”, starting for the change of leaders at the Presidential office, Provinces Gvts. & Congress for (center right) politicians that can make an up/down in the whole pack of policies to straighten the fate of the nation exploiting the great resouces and workforce it has...If that happens Argentina could start to dreeam of a developed country status in a medium term.....And I hope it happens soon......!!!
Oct 13th, 2014 - 04:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Elvis KIssoff for Clown Prince!
Oct 13th, 2014 - 04:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@17
Oct 13th, 2014 - 04:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You don't want our money, shame, we could lend it to you but at 15% per annum, I think that is reasonable considering your pevious non payment. Seriously I hope you don't borrow money because you know you have to pay it back.
i think there is going to be a popcorn shortage as we are all watching waiting for Argentina to implode
Oct 13th, 2014 - 05:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina needs massive investments, not loans.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 05:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0rotting roadkill needs to be foreclosed on and liquidated by its creditors.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Credit? We don't need no stinkin' credit!”
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Or, to quote “The Treasure of the Sierra Madre” more accurately:
“Credit? We ain't got no credit. We don't need no credit. I don't have to show you any stinkin' credit!”
How can you have investment if there is no rule of law? If assets are subject to expropriation? If you can't repatriate profits.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0rotting roadkill needs to go on the auction block and be busted up.
Expropiations are not the biggest problem that bars investment in Argentina, its a whole range of things like taxes rates, labour laws, the Unions power, lack of infrastructure, know how, costs, and yes you can repatriate profits.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But returning to the capital “markets” will be fatal for the gov't will not be forced to do the reforms it desperately needs to undertake and reduce the size of the monsterous Argentine State and cut the deficit and uncontrolled deficit that has triggered Argentina into its crisis each 10 years in the last 50 years or so.
@22
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Any bookies taking odds on what's to come next...?
Nostrils
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your lack of understanding is shocking. You seem to confuse debt with international debt.
Debt is not necessarily a bad thing.
Most people, companies and countries operate with various levels of debt.
For example, you could have a mortgage on your home, some savings in the bank, a pension fund, and some investments. Some of this is money lent to you for a return, some of this is money lent by you for a return.
You seem to misunderstand the UKs national debt, or misrepresent it, and it makes you look a fool. A large portion of the UK debt is lent to the government by UK citizens in the form of pension funds...it is a UK asset AND a UK debt.
The international portion of the UK debt is predominantly international funds investing in a safe bet....which is mostly offset by UK funds investing in international debt for a higher return.
Argentina both borrowed more than it could repay, and probably had no intention of ever repaying anyway, which is why nobody would lend again...the fact you think it would be on “your terms” is hilarious misplaced arrogance and ignorance.
Sadly, Argentina blames those who lent them money for “tricking them” rather than blaming those who borrowed irresponsibly.
The difference in the UK, is that those who borrowed irresponsibly (I.e. the Labour Party) were voted out at the earliest opportunity.
I remember you once asked that government was not the same as the State...but YOUR government acts as if it is the State and YOUR electorate support them as if they were the State.....break that link, perhaps you have chance.
27. Lies on lies. lol. We're not stupid. YPF's experience is pretty recent! What are you smoking?
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who is he kidding?
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 030. Its not the first time that an o/g company gets expropiated. All these companies are used to dealing with these kind of regimes all around the world.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That guy, Brufau was a real player, the Ks were dealing with someone who would leave Barajas Airport in Madrid at 11:00 pm and Gaddafis energy minister was up all night waiting to recive him in the palaces of Tripoli at 6: 00 am
And they got a damn good deal if you ask me 10 Bn USD Repsol already dumped into the markets straight awat and got rid of YPF and all the regulations and preassures attached to its operations in Argentina. Brufau out played Kicillof out blind.
32. No investment for rotting roadkill. The political risk to equity is viewed as unacceptable. This is reflected in your own Merval/BCBA which is off 20% since 9/29/14. Hell rotting roadkill threatened to confiscate ShitiBanc less that a month ago.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wake up. No one is buying it. Peronismo is incompatiable with private investment.
Obviously Im not expecting anybody to invest in Argentina while the Ks are still in power, dummy.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All important presidentials have being off to NYC before they even started their campaign in Argentina to secure their investors.
43. “But the biggest doubters of capitalism among the 44 countries Pew polled can be found in Argentina. Only a third of those surveyed agreed with the statement that the free market system is best. ” http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/13/news/economy/capitalism-china-likes-more-than-us/index.html
Oct 13th, 2014 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Figure it out: You'd have to get rid of Cretina, etal and about 27 million other rotting roadkillians to make your fantasy real. P e r o n i s m o .
@ 32 CabezaDura2
Oct 13th, 2014 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0everything in the YPF nationalisation points to Cristina's personal vendetta against Néstor's close friend Enrique Eskenazi and his son Sebastián E. from the Petersen Group, her new enemies.
The idiots can say or believe what they want, but who ever comes in 2016 will have to enable a free market economy as fast as he can. Not because of ideology but because of simple need of it.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 07:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If the tap of the international loans opens then he will not be forced to do the hard choices and reformes that need to be taken and another cycle of liquidation of expenditure via devaluation- revery- growth of State expenditure in real terms- inflation- crisis will start again
37. The idiots are the vast majority of your fellow countrymen.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Changes in these last 10 years were positive in many ways, but perhaps became very quickly, I think for a few years we should act a little more conservatively, only for a while. ALL POSITIVE PRACTICE THAT GAVE POSITIVE RESULTS, IN SOME POINT, IF STILL PRACTICING, CAN UNDERMINE THE SUCCESS ACHIEVED.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The state we are all, the more than 40 million Argentines, if in free and democratic elections, we choose a president (currently CFK), we must support it, although we did have not voted (I did not vote for CFK, but is my president and I respect).
In 2015 we will vote for new president, his challenge will be to maintain the achievements of Cristina and improve its management weak points: ARGENTINA IS A HUGE COUNTRY, RICH IN NATURAL RESOURCES, A MIDDLE CLASS EDUCATED, WITH THE MIND TO PULL FORWARD ALWAYS, AS DID OUR GRANDPARENTS TANOS Y GALLEGOS .
36.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 07:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Others (with very good contacts within gov't like Jorge Asis) are informed that CFK made herself believe that YPF was a money maker and that VM was the discovery of the century. She had no clue as to how the O/g industry functions even if she married the governor from a energy oriented province like Santa Cruz.
She somehow was certain that investors would run to BsAs to pump Billions of dollars into Vaca Muerta, so far no well has turned out to be profitable and the investors never came.
Argentina doesn't need international credit, “we have CFK,
Oct 13th, 2014 - 07:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0perhaps come 2015, the people choose a new leader, and a better one at that.
”The state we are all, the more than 40 million Argentines, if in free and democratic elections, we choose a president (currently CFK), we must support it, although we did have not voted (I did not vote for CFK, but is my president and I respect).”
Oct 13th, 2014 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A bit addicted to cool aid Hernan arent you ??
The State IS the Victory Front party. full stop.
rotting roadkillians: You don't have to acknowledge this publically but your country has been in historical decline for decades. Were it not for the parasitic level of government jobs you would currently have unemployment twice that of Spain's at the height of the Great Recession. Your industrial infastructure is third world. Your math/science/technology education is a joke. The culture of your society is in decay as reflected in your lack of morality and poverty of your art. Your sport suffers as well. No positives are to be found. Perhaps it's time for a revolution?
Oct 13th, 2014 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There's no reason to invest in Argentina. No company is going to dump 10s of or 100s of millions U$ to mfg.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 07:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your population is just to unproductive (read lazy and entitled)
You'll be lucky if the Auto Mfgs stay past 2015.
Frankly, I'm surprised they're still there
You can be one of the world's food baskets, but you can't live like you have been. You can't have a developed economy with only 1 export.
As you are seeing your 1 export is close to its mfg price.
No profit No planting
I also cringe every time I see someone say the investors in the 90s were speculators. Yeah so what? That's a good thing. Without people speculating you don't have an economy.
As you are seeing
Argentina needs a major retrenchment.
I hope you get it
Otherwise you're doomed
D O O M !
Oct 13th, 2014 - 07:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1728949-el-dilema-argentino-de-ser-tigre-o-canguro
Oct 13th, 2014 - 07:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina is simply uncapable to become industrialized for the reasons you mention. The other way is simply diversify into Agro exports, services, energy and tourism.
It just needs to do reforms and cut the size of the State. Gov't deficit and size is the main source of corruption and the root of all evil. Once that is done we just have to follow countries like Chile, New Zealand and Australia. Neither are industrialized countries yet they are almost developed or developed.
46. Yes I agree with you.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To be a tourist destination you'd have to be cheap and safe. The flight is too long and too expensive for Argentina to have expensive food and lodging.
You'll still need radical reform though, lots and lots of unemployment for a long time until other business develop. It took Chile 30-40yrs to get where it is. I would imagine Argentina would take about the same.
Argentina doesn't need international credit, “we have foreign currency to face debt maturities”
Oct 13th, 2014 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0says kicillof... arguably the worst “minister” of economy ever known.
now the imbecile should explain why there is a lot of medicines, oncologic between them, which are not imported because of the lack of dollars.
maybe this imbecile along with moreno, lorenzino, boudou, echegaray and the rest of the geniuses should recognize that the cepo cambiario was a complete backfire.
they got exactly the opposite to what the country needed.
hope this band of delinquents are prosecuted and jailed as soon as this government finishes its mandate
“The biggest impediment could simply be the cost of doing business there,” said Walter Molano, managing partner at BCP Securities and author of In the Land of Silver, a history of Argentina's economic development. Argentina lacks many of the advantages that drove the U.S. fracking boom, from private mineral rights and a stable legal regime to a spate of small, nimble oil companies and plentiful energy infrastructure.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“That's why I am so pessimistic about the future of fracking in Latin America,” Molano said.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/10/13/argentinas_brilliant_terrible_very_unclear_energy_future_vaca_muerta_YPF_shale
http://factcheckargentina.org/
Oct 13th, 2014 - 08:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There's a great Baez/Cretina money trail map here and the authors were kind enough to include a link to a Spanish version. You won't find this in the Clarin in the near future. I don't care if you are a peronist dog - if this doesn't make you mad, something's wrong with you.
At which stage do they start with agrarian land reforms and carting off and shooting the middle classes ?
Oct 13th, 2014 - 09:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This country is getting more and more like North Korea every day .
39@ “ARGENTINA IS A HUGE COUNTRY, RICH IN NATURAL RESOURCES, A MIDDLE CLASS EDUCATED, WITH THE MIND TO PULL FORWARD ALWAYS, AS DID OUR GRANDPARENTS TANOS Y GALLEGOS .”
Oct 13th, 2014 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, it´s.......but it´s under the worst management so all that good conditions are lost to the investors eyes when they have to decided where they put their money......
What you need is to change that bad management and the whole pack of laws and policies made by the K gang and open your economy to the world .....
It´s your only chance for a better future.....
Yeah but we can still go for our conventional reserves that are still out there and by no conventional some time. The Saudis are pressing OPEC to dump the markets with cheap oil at round 80-90 USD per barril to stop the US taking over with shale much to the depriment of Venezuela that desperately needs crude over 100. At least for a couple of years.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 09:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.urgente24.com/231697-para-eliminar-el-fracking-los-arabes-quieren-deflacionar-el-crudo
I guess its good news for Argentina and the importing countries.
53. That might backfire on them, they're going to drag down Russia and Venezuela before they stop fracking in the USA.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 10:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It would be good for Argentina if you exports weren't falling so much and the U$ getting higher.
At best its a wash.
Christ every time someone dies in Argentina the President declares a 2 day holiday, no wonder the country is going down the pan. When do they ever work?
Oct 13th, 2014 - 10:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Get off your arses Argentina and take responsability and work for the nation, as a matter of fact although retired some 10 years I would love to go back to work, as I enjoyed working.
@15 Hernan
Oct 13th, 2014 - 11:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“But you will understand, that the resistance of Argentina to seek international loans ....”
Oh sure, the international bankers are crazy to lend money to Argentina...it's CFK that doesn't want it...
And I sse that Enrique @16 , the Argie who thinks he understands Brazilian politics, and the Moron 4nTrolley @17, are keeping you company....
I think it would be good idea for you to isolate yourselves from the world...who needs useless Trolls like you ??
55. Its a national mourning but everyone is off to work tomorrow. You seriously need to improve your spanish.
Oct 13th, 2014 - 11:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@56
Oct 14th, 2014 - 02:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina will isolate itself completely from the world, those with such views are becoming the majority, as I have predicted.
Foreigners are a pernicious detriment and must be kept out.
@46 Chile and New Zealand are far smaller than Argentina, they don't have 40 million mouths to feed. Australia has half the population, a more diversified economy and still has a perennial growing private debt. It is better than perennial fiscal deficit yes, but you cannot expect Argentina to run on a perpetually increasing private debt. And once robots begin replacing the service sector they are toast.
Oct 14th, 2014 - 03:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina needs manufacturing to survive, whether it is through the market or through force. Of course, it is the local businessmen who have to invest, the foreign ones won't and even if they did we would just increase our dependence on them. Peron was on the right track, though his approach was horribly flawed.
@54 Venezuela is already running out of refinable oil, and I don't think the arabs care about Russia.
““we have foreign currency to face debt maturities”
Oct 14th, 2014 - 03:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Can anyone say, ”Yuan”?
59. Jeez what a f_king fool!!!!I believed you were way much smarter.
Oct 14th, 2014 - 03:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0But Argentina is 10 x times bigger than NZ and 8 times bigger than Chile, it is completely false the assumptions that to be developed country you need to industrialize.
The problem with what you say is that it has being tried for more than 80 years since substitution of importations begun. Argentina abandoned the model of free market, investments and export based economy that had led it from 1880 to 1914 to become the 4th economic power for a isolated, populist, uncompetitive, statist piece of crap economy that ignorant buffons such as you an Toby decry for.... As if you dont live in it already !!!!!
INDUSTRIAL POPULISM that Espert describes
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1476362-basta-de-populismo-industrial
You even say services are going to be replaced by robots ?? If that is what you truly believe in then what about mfg ??? Man do you even read the news like 3D printing revolution, nano technology ??
Do you want an industrial country you peronist cunts ??? Well study engeneering instead of law and sociology like the Israelis and Irish do, be as efficient as the South Koreans, the Taiwanese, have controled and small government budgets like Macao and Singapore have. Work hard and properly as Germans do. Have competetive labour laws that allow Argentina to be a world player and attract investors....
Ohhh but you cant can you??? NONE OF THAT, YOU NEED (AS YOU HAVE FOR THE LAST 70 years) AND END UP RELYING OVER AND OVER ON THE ONLY AND COMPETITIVE REAL SECTOR OF THE ECONOMY THE AGRO SECTOR TO SUBSIDISE POPULISM AND INDUSTRIAL INEFFICIENCY AND IDIOCY.
Man have you even seen the numbers of the failure that the “polo industrial” TDF is ??
Ill give you a hint... http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1476362-basta-de-populismo-industrial
@57
Oct 14th, 2014 - 07:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0“ Que?”
An interesting statement given that they can't pay their debts as they fall due...
Oct 14th, 2014 - 08:17 am - Link - Report abuse 061. I've said this before Marxists/Communists/Collectivists/Socialist have a firm belief that the reason that their ways have always failed is because it wasn't done right the last time. They think with a little nip here and a tuck there and “if everyone pulls together” it will work out fine the next time.
Oct 14th, 2014 - 11:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0No amount of evidence or historical facts can change their minds.
I think there's something mentally wrong with Magnus. Don't even bother.
Continue to drink your mate, pursue tranquilidad, allow the police to extort money from you verses protecting you, elect thieves to “help ” you, isolate yourself from the world and drown in self importance. You will be just fine OL' boy Argentina.
Oct 14th, 2014 - 11:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0You will never be a serious contender in anything, but then again you don't really care.
@58 Nosy Nostril
Oct 14th, 2014 - 03:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If you get your wish, that's one step closer to VZ...good luck with that !
58
Oct 14th, 2014 - 04:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why don't you lead by example and stop coming on this site and posting to outsiders? Typical Argentine; all talk and no action. Leave it up to someone else to do it.
I don't think it is possible for Argentina to now become like Australia. It definitely can't become like NZ or Chile - small countries find a small niche and excel at it and Argentina will never be happy being a small country. Uruguay should look to Chile and NZ for inspiration.
Oct 14th, 2014 - 11:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Australia didn't deindustrialise. It moved it industry progressively from secondary to the tertiary sector.
You are a twat Anglotino, as if Argentina wasnt preassured to focus on soy and derivates in these years. As if Argentina didn't depend on a small niche already. If it didn't diversify more on that it is because of industrial populism and tax on exports and a vendetta on agro policy ergo the State was in the middle, but if they let us i.e the State off our shoulders and the correct policies and reforms were implemented you would eat our dust in less than a generation.
Oct 15th, 2014 - 12:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Calling me names doesn't change fact CabezaDura.
Oct 15th, 2014 - 04:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0It is my country that is letting you eat our dust generation after generation. Even when Argentina was considered richer than us, you had 300 years headstart and double the population.
Argentina has always had great potential. However no one “pressured you to focus on soy and derivatives”. Circumstances forced you.
Argentina has defaulted EIGHT times. Australia has never defaulted. There is a flexibility in Australia's economic and political system that is missing from Argentina's. Industrialisation is heavily influenced by the income level of the population. For instance, Australia cannot compete in building cars when Thailand and Malaysia have income levels at 10% of ours. Making shoes and underwear is senseless with so many poor Chinese and Indonesians willing to work for salaries that make those industries profitable.
Argentina doesn't diversify because it doesn't let the matter decide the diversification. The government either champions sectors through policy or scares them off through inconsistency.
Australia has nearly US$600 billion in inward FDI stock and Argentina manages just over US$100 billion. Argentina has everything Australia has, abundant land, agricultural potential, mineral wealth AND it is surrounded by countries that would make natural export destinations and yet can only manage 19% of the investment level we can.
Perhaps Argentina could have great future potential if what you ask for happens. However Australia doesn't stand still. We use setbacks to reform and motivate change. Argentina uses setbacks to wallow.
That is societal and might take more than a generation to change.
Argentina has a much better geography than Australia has. Simple as that. It doesn't matter how many times Argentina defaulted.
Oct 15th, 2014 - 09:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0FYI Argentina was scarcely populated, developed and invested during the colonial times, after independence the country was at civil war for the first half of the XIX Century then multiple challenges arose like the Indian raids, the desert campaign, the war with Paraguay. Yet in 1880 a libertarian and conservative class came to power and enforced free market, low budget administration, export oriented economy and open and respectfull of investments. By 1914 we had become the 4th largest economy on earth. So the idea that Australia was 3 centuries behind of Argentina is ridiculous.
The only thing that has changed is that you are now next door to the most succesful countries in the world in South East Asia and Pacific and you can supply them with raw materials and commodities.
It would be as if you had Argentina right next to Europe in the Industrial revolution.
What I meant is that the government pressed on various agro exports and crops, and left soy as the most profitable and secure crop for many years so therefore the country as limited as it was by the State pretty much developed that niche.
I dont understand where you get that nonesence “small countries find a small niche and excel at it and Argentina will never be happy being a small country” from.
If only Argentina elected me presidident you would eat our dust in your own life time
Well you certainly make excuses like an Argentine president.
Oct 15th, 2014 - 10:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0However I think you overestimate your abilities to do something that no Argentine leader has done for nearly 100 years.
But maybe you'll have some new excuses for failure. Seems everything goes right for Australia and nothing goes right for Argentina.
Excuses?? Its just historical fact.
Oct 15th, 2014 - 11:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0Comparing Australia and Argentina is like comparing USA and Bangladesh.
Oct 15th, 2014 - 12:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Argentine citizens have not experienced enough pain (yet) to change the system.
Oct 15th, 2014 - 12:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It will go on as it has for the last 3-4 generations slowly but consistently devolving, the vast majority of people getting poorer and dumber than the last generation.
I said many years ago in a decade Arg will look more like Bolivia than the USA. And this was when it was in its “won decade” I stand by my prediction.
Their last, final and only hope of Vaca Muerte just died with U$80/b oil. Bye Bye all exploration until its over $100 again for awhile.
Poorer and dumber? Don't think so. Argentina has, like all countries, a collection of all sorts of individuals. Many excel at world level. Same as the United States, who has smart people...and then yankeeboy.
Oct 15th, 2014 - 06:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0CD2 for president ....Need to invest in a huge new transport fleet for the Air Force though , with very big cargo doors .
Oct 15th, 2014 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Enrique, Argentina is the only country in the world that has been devolving for 3-4 generations.
Oct 15th, 2014 - 08:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Prove me wrong.
BTW did you flee after they started looking for you or when your friends started disappearing?
Too bad they missed you.
77...LOOOOOOL !!
Oct 15th, 2014 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@78 Relatively, that is. But you knew that?
Oct 15th, 2014 - 10:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That´s a serious whopper, Axel, why do you keep telling lies?
Oct 16th, 2014 - 11:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0If we are so full of foreign currency, then why can´t I freely buy foreign currency to protect my savings from the appalling inflation that is eroding our currency on daily basis?
Anybody else find it a bit odd that Nostril's constantly calls for a policy of Argentine isolationism, a disengagement with foreigners, but he is here almost every day engaging with, well mostly, foreigners. ...!
Oct 18th, 2014 - 05:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hmmmm. ....
Obviously a very troubled individual. ..
The subject of inconsistency nicely returns us to the topic. If Argentina had so much foreign currency why does it not pay its foreign debts? Equally, why are they so desperate to prevent dollar-flight?
something doesn't add up right. That's for sure.
Argentina is rolling in foreign currency, or at least the presidente and her friends are.
Oct 18th, 2014 - 05:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sounds like it's not just KFC who is scoring “Own goals”.....
Oct 18th, 2014 - 07:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This, from this afternoons football results...............
Santiago Vergini scored one of the Premier League's most spectacular own goals. The Argentine, 26, volleyed into his own net from 18 yards.
Ha, ha, ha!!!!
Lol!
Oct 19th, 2014 - 12:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0#78
Oct 19th, 2014 - 02:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Indeed, Argentina did not do well since the first military coup in 1930, until the end of the last dictatorship in 1983 (53 years). The military ruled the country for 25 years, imposing 14 dictators under the title of “president,” one every 1.7 years on average. Those dictators were befriended by most western countries. These decades of instability were far from ideal for the country.
It took a while for democracy to take enough hold in Argentina, but the justice under the governments of Nestor Kirchner and Cristina Fernandez finally began dealing with the crimes of the 1976-1983 dictatorship.
Today, many genocides are convicted and doing time. Others are on the run, and others waiting sentencing. Perhaps yankeeboy will volunteer to bring oranges to his jailed friends?
However, be careful. Avoid flying with those Air Force transport fleet with big cargo doors suggested by Usurping Pirate in #77.
86. Did you flee Argentina like a rat in the 70s? Are you still a wanted terrorist or just a filthy commie nobody?
Oct 19th, 2014 - 10:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am sure the is a large percentage of the population that would welcome military rule back with open arms.
@61 To be a developed country the size of Argentina you need to industralize. You can't employ 40 million people with agriculture and services. Manufacturing won't be nearly as affected as services by automation for the next 50 years. 3D printing machines don't scale and work for simple cheap products with little value. Complex machinery will be made just as usual, and while China and those countries that rely on services starve the USA will keep eating more and more bacon.
Oct 20th, 2014 - 01:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0The ISI policies failed because they did not substitute capital goods or developed technology and focused too much on the internal market, so you ended up importing more stuff than before. Perón realized this too late and was kicked by the military before he could do anything, and subsequent governments abandoned industrial development for industrial populism. The export-based industrilization done by the Asian tigers was an updated version of ISI with focus on export markets and real tecnological development and succeeded.
The free-market economy of 1880-1930 was headed for inevitable collapse as it had zero industrilization and relied on the context of the Belle Epoque. The free-market wants us to be starving low-wage farmers like those in Rural China, and had we stuck with the free-market policies we would be just as bad, or even worse, than today.
@64 I'm not a Socialist, I'm a realist. The free market will starve us if it gets its way. That's because the way it works is by enslaving people in resource-rich countries with little tecnological development for the benefit of people in resource-poor and tecnologically developed countries. Kinda like war, but through business transactions.
Communism has definitely failed but for us, the free market is just as bad. And while I don't advocate any of the Russian Communists, their experiment gave Russia tecnology the free market would never let them have.
88
Oct 20th, 2014 - 07:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0Some interesting points you make there.
Any suggestions for a way forward for Argentina?
88. Never i the history of the world has a Gov't had any success innovating or forcing industrialization on its people. It must be done by GASP Capitalists, for profit not for the GOOD OF THE PEOPLE or State.
Oct 20th, 2014 - 11:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0China is seeing this right now just give it a decade or so to watch the “Chinese Miracle” crumble just like the Soviets did.
Argentinians are too lazy and entitled to work. The State doesn't enforce patents and will tax and regulate a business if its “TOO” profitable.
So what you are hoping for will never happen.
Shortly you'll see hyperinflation and depression
It is assured
There's no other outcome that I can see rolling out.
When that happens you'll lose the auto mfgs for good.
So there goes most of your employment base and 1/2 of your exports.
Just wait.
It will happen.
soon
@89 First the Peronists need a kick in the nuts. Then we have to fully industralize our country. The state needs to actively work on tecnology to make capital goods and encourage local capitalists to use that tech, and locally made components, for export goods. Subsidies and protections should only be granted to those who meet set goals, if there are too many who can't meet the goals then the state needs to intervene somehow, using force if necessary.
Oct 20th, 2014 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hopefully it's not necessary, but capitalists have wanted Argentina to be a slave plantation since the beginning of globalized free-market capitalism and they will use every feature of capitalism until we are subsistence farmers working for a loaf of bread a week.
@90 So what do you propose, to just let the capitalists starve us? Well, at least you're being more honest than the usual free-market drone that promises food for everyone.
Where is the reset button? We need to operate in the real world which has golden rules, those with the gold set the rules...People that use capitalism as a curse word need to try and cash some reality checks..
Oct 20th, 2014 - 10:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 091. Are you sure you're not living in N Korea? The State needs to make people produce? Make people buy goods?
Oct 20th, 2014 - 11:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you fcking with us?
You can't be that delusional.
But then again you have a bunch of nuts running the country...
@93 Well, the capitalists aren't going to invest on mfg on their own. The state needs to, at the very least, persuade the capitalists to make them produce. Hopefully with a juicy carrot they get their asses moving and not have to go the Cuba route, but I fear the capitalists love division of labor almost as much as they love their profits and we might end up using the sticks.
Oct 21st, 2014 - 01:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0I never said anything about making people buy goods. The demand is there. The problem is the supply.
94. If the “capitalists” won't invest there's a reason. The gov't doesn't have the wearwithal to develop manufacturing. Argentinians are too lazy and entitled to work hard. You need to suffer for a generation or two and realize that you can only eat if you work.
Oct 21st, 2014 - 03:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe the next generation or the one after than will work and fix that horrible place.
based on your delusional statements it won't be fixed anytime in the near future.
#91 #94
Oct 21st, 2014 - 06:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Couldn't agree more. The state must establish direction and keep firm control of the economy so the economy benefits the people and not the other way around.
96. Can you please point out one country where that has ever worked on an extended basis?
Oct 21st, 2014 - 07:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just one
retard
@95 We are already working hard, just as hard as an American or an European. If that isn't enough, then that's not our problem, it's the capitalist's.
Oct 21st, 2014 - 09:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 098. OMG, have you ever been to Argentina? Rgs are extremely lazy, one of the least productive countries on the planet. Why do you think no one wants to mfg there?
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 01:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are bizarre.
Have they stopped carrying your meds in the country?
@99 I LIVE in Argentina genius, and I visited the USA and Europe several times. While there are plenty of lazy bums in Argentina, most people don't take a nap all day long. Not the ones working on a private enterprise, at least. And I'm pretty sure there aren't many sweatshops in the USA or Europe.
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 03:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0I know you ar Argentine by your delusional view of the world. What makes you think you need sweat shops to be productive? The USA is one of the most productive countries in the world and we don't rely on them to enhance our productivity.
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 01:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have a warped thought process, you drank the Peronist kool aid too long and don't understand how the real world works.
It is no use trying to explain it to you.
You get everything you deserve.
@101 I know very well how the real world works. I never said sweat shops were needed to be productive. You don't need sweat shops if you have technology. And to have technology you need to industralize.
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 05:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What do you mean by being delusional?
88 You havent got a clue about economics, you spout “desarrollista” theories of the 1960s. Its just more of the same industrialist crap that I have always heard of. It's like YB says
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“the reason that their ways have always failed is because it wasn't done right the last time. They think with a little nip here and a tuck there and “if everyone pulls together” it will work out fine the next time.
No amount of evidence or historical facts can change their minds.”
You can print a one piece engine nowdays with a 3D printer.
Asian tigers didnt substitute any imports, you fool. They were far too poor to import anything back in the 1950s and 1960s destroyed by war .
102. No matter how many times I've tried to explain how the real world works, the successful and civilized world you somehow still believe the Peronista crap that gets you a boom and bust cycle every decade and every bust gets you to a lower point.
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 08:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The gov't is not the answer to what ails Argentina it is the problem.
Listen to CD2.
@103 The desarrollista theories were partly right, but they weren't export oriented. All they did was to persuade foreign corporations to set up here. Despite their short-sightedness their period was the last period Argentina had any real growth.
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Asian countries didn't have to substitute imports but they didn't import all capital goods, they made some of their own.
And 3D printers can print engines because they have little to no moving parts and are mostly metal. They can simplify assembly a lot but they can't print a whole train or battleship. At least not yet. Mfg is highly automatized already but they still need a lot of people, and they will until we can make robots that can fix other robots, which is a much bigger problem than replacing a clerk.
If we do what the economic theories say is guaranteed to “work”, which means maximum efficiency, then we starve, because that is the nature of the beast. Only people that are needed are fed, if they are not needed, they are discarded. 2 plus 2 equals everyone starves in the long term unless more jobs are created, which depends on technological stagnation to be sustainable, or people who don't work are fed, but that would be *gasp* Socialism.
@104 If the government is not the answer then what is? The market would hire a few people for peanuts to work in soy or wheat fields and then let the rest, which would be 60-80% of the population, would starve. And even if we worked like slaves the market will never give us more jobs or higher wages, for the simple reason the market wants Argentina to be an agrarian country and agrarian countries with 40 million people starve.
105. What's the short answer, start everything over. You, most of your population has been so indoctrinated to failed Peronista ideals that it is doomed. Most of you need to have your mind wiped clean of all the ridiculous ideas you've been taught.
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 10:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina has a horrible reputation for being a corrupt kleptocracy. I dont' see any legitimate company would ever set up shop there.
Too lazy and entitle population, corrupt gov't, expensive utilities, high taxes, terrible infrastructure and the as* end of no where.
No thanks, There's plenty of other places to go.
As I've said many time, you need to starve for 1 or 2 generations to learn that these absolutely laughable policies your gov't keeps telling you will work, you believe time and again only to be made fools of when it all collapses. Your society is doomed to fail until you adapt sane policies.
I don't see that happening in any of our lifetimes.
105.
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 10:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What you claim has being done now with the auto industry here in Cordoba during the K years, big assembly lines selling cars to Brazil, yet the only way they can function in Argentina is with subsidized energy, labor force that has access to cheap food due to the repression of agro exports and subsidies of all kinds transport, electricity, gas, etc. and a favorable dollar exchange rate. When you sell soy or corn to the international markets we get paid in pesos at the official gov't rate, yet the local cost we have are in the blue dollar rate which IS the real market rate. The other one is fictional. So that is a hidden theft by the government.
Yet the industry in order to function and import their pieces from elsewhere are given these dollars.
The Japanese miracle of post WWII is due mostly because of the liberalization of its economy in comparisson to the WWI-WWII period.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qqG6OurHaM
Besides the State cant “orientate” the industry to export, that is false. You can only subsidise the industry but you have to punish and use resources that other sectors of the economy produce in order for that to happen. And this is the case of Argentina
@107 The auto industry manufactures with imported parts, imported machinery and completely funded by foreign corporations. What I propose is simple: locally owned corporations, more locally made components, and locally developed technology, all for export, and conditions for subsidies. Of course, we shouldn't completely shut off imports but they need to be at a low level so they can be managable.
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 11:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think it is good to punish the agro sector, not too much but a bit, they don't create many jobs, most of the jobs they make aren't stable and don't pay well (not even minimum wage) and most of their profits would be sent to other country anyway. I don't approve the dual dollar rates but that is a recent development which will hopefully be temporary.
@106 Your policies aren't sane, they are the most insane of them all. No matter how much we work we will never be productive for you, why? Because you Americans are superior, and we Argentinians are inferior Latinos, and therefore we have to be poor starving peasants even if we work twice as hard as you while you sit on your asses all day and hire a Mexican to clean your mess, and we deserve to starve because we are Argentinians. Americans have freedom and rights, Argentinians are lazy and entitled for demanding those same rights.
The same crap we have heard from the British a hundred years ago and then heard from you Americans since WWII. Division of labor, competitive advantages, productiveness. I studied for years the financial language in school, I know what it means. It means:
YOU ARE LATINO SCUM KEEP STARVING
GOOD JOB! NICE DOG! HERE'S A COOKIE!
BAD DOG! *whip*
WE ARE HUMANS YOU ARE A DOG
That's all you yankeeboys in the American government and the financial community know to say.
Of course you will never respect us as humans, scum only respects those who treats them for what they are. But I speak to defend myself and those from my country and Latinos from prejuidiced scum like you and to teach others to do the same.
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