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Spain tried to abort US Congress bill in support of Gibraltar's right to self determination

Tuesday, January 6th 2015 - 22:12 UTC
Full article 146 comments

Spain tried to persuade US politicians to drop an initiative calling for the House of Representatives in Washington to formally recognize Gibraltar’s right to self-determination. The plea was contained in a letter from Spain’s ambassador to Washington, Ramon Gil-Casares, to Republican Congressman George Holding, who sponsored the bi-partisan resolution. Read full article

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  • Porto Margaret

    Well this sunshine is not so bright, neither Spanish or aussi.

    As for being an active member of the United States led coalition against ISIL. Is Spain not there for its on sake? Why slip that into the woeful letter?

    Gibraltar’s citizens have “freely and democratically” expressed their desire. Rather like the Falkland Islanders did.

    Jan 06th, 2015 - 10:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    After all of Spain's juvenile actions, why would they think anyone would take them seriously?

    Jan 06th, 2015 - 11:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    Nobody cares what Spain thinks.

    Jan 06th, 2015 - 11:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    Britain's threat of legal action to Spain on Gibraltar
    BRITAIN should take Spain to the European Court of Justice over its flagrant breaches of sovereignty in Gibraltar,
    www.express.co.uk/news/world/550042/UK-threat-legal-action-Spain-Gibraltar-invasion-territory-air-space-waters
    To use the of the war against terror as a lever over the issue of Gibraltar, a situation of its own causing, and so soon after the beheadings of British and American citizens, is absolutely shameful.
    “Spain is behaving in an appalling way,” he said.
    Gerald Howarth MP added: “How dare Spain play the terror card in this tasteless fashion?
    ”Where are Spanish fighter jets as Britain and the US and other coalition members bomb ISIL positions over Iraq?
    ”This was a tasteless and frankly desperate ploy by Spain
    Read on…………..

    .Down with Spain,
    Shameful...

    Jan 06th, 2015 - 11:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Alejomartinez

    Dear friends, come on. Stop colonialism in all its forms and manifestations. C'me on. Gibraltarians are as transplanted as you UK subjects in the Malvinas. Cant you see that forcing facts will not help? World is different, not tolerant of UK empire methodology any longer! No room for the British invasion aftermath.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 12:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anbar

    Yes indeed #5, also lets kick out all the European-descended squatters in south America and give those colonised lands back to the indigenous peoples!

    (oh, sorry, did you forget you are are colonisers Alejomartinez?)

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 01:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • gordo1

    @5 Remember the Treaty of Utrecht? El Peñon was ceded to Britiain in perpetuity.
    Do you want to renegotiate the Treaty of Utrecht because that is the only solution - that would, of course, mean the the Islas Baleares must be returned to Britain!

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 01:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    Alejomartinez, are you really so stupid? Is your mother also your father's sister?

    Taking away someone's right to self determination is the worst form of colonialism.

    Stop suppressing people's rights and they will be happier.

    And so will you.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 01:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • BOTINHO

    Ceuta and Melilla, Spanish colonies in North Africa come to mind.

    But not considered as colonies oddly enough as per Spain, “ Spaniards have been living there for 400 years. We won't consider it ” ?

    So 1715, the date heralding the British ownership of Gibraltar is to0 recent a date by Spanish logic ? I see.

    As I have a bit of hair on my back, I hereby claim all of Spain and the Iberian peninsula, in the name of all the hairy Neanderthals descendants that first occupied that area 50,000 years ago. It is our sovereign right, after all.

    So to all Spanish colonizers of Spain: Vámonos !

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 02:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Hepatia

    There are a few things that puzzle me about this article.

    First, what has this to do with the US and Congress? The answer is nothing and we should stay out of it completely.

    The second is what has this to do with Mercosul and why is 'MercoPenguin' giving this story so much prominence? Again, this has nothing to do with Mercosul and MercoPenguin is running this story because it is a British Government run propaganda operation whose only purpose is to advance British interests.

    I am writing to my US Representative to urge him to oppose this resolution.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 03:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @5 Alejomartinez. Wrong. The concept of 'transported populations' only came about following the Fourth Geneva Convention in 1947 and cannot be applied retroactively so does not apply to Gibraltar or the Falkland Islands. However, the Four UN ICJ Advisiry Opinions and One ICJ Judgment all confirm or state, 'that the right to self-determination is applicable to ALL non-self-govering territories.' In the light of the 1995 East Timor judgment which declared self-determination as erga omnes, placing an obligation on all states, the UN Intetnational a Law a Commission and Human Rights Commission have declared that self-determination is jus cogens, 'compelling law.' It is as the Secretary General of the UN said in 2010, 'the 16 remaining territories that still do not govern themselves must have complete freedom of choice to determine their own future status.' That complete freedom of choice includes 'free association with the UK' which is a recognised method of de-colonisation. Comprende?

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 07:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • golfcronie

    @11
    You might as well talk to the wall, they DO NOT and WILL NOT understand as they are all indoctrinated at birth.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 09:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • downunder

    10# hepatitis
    “There are a few things that puzzle me about this article.
    First, what has this to do with the US and Congress? The answer is nothing and we should stay out of it completely.”

    It's easy to get puzzled when you look with only one eye!

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 10:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Rufus

    “Leaving aside the political opportunity of such a Resolution, precisely when my country is an active member of the United States led coalition against ISIL , as Ambassador for the Kingdom of Spain to the United States of America I respectfully and deeply regret that such a text has made its way to the Venerable House of Representatives.”

    If we're going down that particular route then isn't Britain also contributing to the coalition against ISIL? In a way that is actually immediately helpful? In considerably more numbers than Spain is?

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 10:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    We can all see from the actions of this 'Spanish' mental midget why SA is in such a complete mess.

    Snide, cowardly actions, bringing in irrelevant issues as if somehow it would help the US decide against Gibraltar. Do these cretins never learn that the world has moved on while they are stuck in the 1800’s?

    @ 10 HEPATIA

    I strongly recommend you write to whoever you like while you squat in the US. Those reading the letter will quickly decide, like we have, that you have mental issues and your uncorroborated ‘word’ cannot and should not be relied upon.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 10:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anti-Muppet

    What's the Spanish word for “Yawn” ?

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 11:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #10
    why is 'MercoPenguin' giving this story so much prominence?

    Could it possibly be to wind-up you and your cronies ? In which case it seems to have been successful.

    You forgot to add the 25 years mantra to your post.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 12:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    10'
    still believes in a Spanish / Argentina dominance.

    its what dreams are made of, lol

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 12:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    @5. Why do you 'think' we're as stupid as you are? The points have already been made but I bow to the temptation to put my boot on the back of your head and grind your face into the shit. The spanish started 'colonising' long before the British. They even managed the first concentration camps for their slaves. They 'colonised' with the sword and the gun to a far greater extent than Britain ever did. Now tell us; has the bastard place you call argieland offered the indigenous people, those that you have left alive, referenda on whether they want to be argies? Perhaps you'd find yourself getting kicked out with nowhere to go.
    @10. I understand that it's a concept foreign to you, but it's called 'free speech'. Now that you've been identified as the sort of liar that uses more than one ID and tries to represent yourself as a nationality that you don't have (Britain would reject you on sight), you need to understand that argie lickspittles have no place in the free world. You can write to whoever you like. Do it properly. Pen and paper. The United States doesn't really have the problems of latam, but it's always worth having a reserve supply of bog paper.
    It just shows your narrow, bigoted, non-intelligent perspective that you should think that a story about a free, democratic, British territory being threatened and attacked by one with dagos in it doesn't have a relevance in the southern hemisphere where another free, democratic British territory is being threatened, has already been attacked and is being attacked again by a whole continent of dago invaders. No wonder we need ballistic missile submarines and the willingness to use them.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 02:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Zool

    @ 5 Alejomartinez, Gibraltains are the ethnic people who have lived their on those lands for thousands of years not a transplanted population, they were invaded by Spain a few hundred years ago then traded away to Britain just a few decades later where they have been happy ever since. Only 15% of the population has any British heritage & they have made it clear they do not want to be part of Spain.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 02:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • St.John

    @ 5 Alejomartinez

    do tell us where the Argentine population origins.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • paulcedron

    gordo tirapedos
    “@5 Remember the Treaty of Utrecht? El Peñon was ceded to Britiain in perpetuity.”

    remember the treaty of utrecht did not cede the territorial waters nor the isthmus.
    the fact is, england has territorial dispute with, between others, argentina, spain, ireland, chagos and the list goes on.

    a lot of problems and just one common denominator: england.
    and then they dont want to be called pirates, lol.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 03:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    Oh dear!! what´s the fuss about MR Holding and his support for the congress bill in recognition of Gibraltar. It is a democracy and if he chooses to support such a bill it is his right..end of story. The thing is that the House Of Representatives are going to ignore such a plea from congressman Holding and it will be totally ignored!!
    I do not think The House of representatives would want to lose the American base in Rota Spain and the new base being now negotiated by The American and Spanish governments in establishing a new military base in Seville, which, will have over 2000 elite American soldiers to control North Africa...would they?

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 03:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @22 Paulcedron

    The Treaty of Lisbon in which Ceuta was ceded to Spain didn't mention territorial waters either. A cession of territorial waters automatically follow with a cession of territory. Still unsure? Just ask the Spanish Foreign Minister Margallo quoted in MercoPress 13 Dec 2013, 'Not sure about success in legal challenge of Gibraltar's waters...'

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 03:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anti-Muppet

    @23 I dunno, maybe they value the use of accession island and the joint British military base Diego Garcia that currently controls the Middle East... you know all them ISIS and alike terrorists, Afghan etc etc etc, I know which holds more value, and its never been the “Spanish Alliance” cough cough giggle! Besides, Maybe Gibraltar could host the Americans ;)

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 03:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • gordo1

    @22 Cara de c--o!

    Once again you have clearly not done any serious research therefore I shall make no comment other than to say that you are an ignorant hijo de su m---e! It is a pity that the moderator allows your continued presence here as it demeans the whole purpose of the debate.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • paulcedron

    and what was your research, you gordo tirapedos?
    you should be banned because of your boundless ignorance.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 06:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pugol-H

    @22 paulcedron
    No, didn’t define territorial air space either, or anything else that didn’t exist at the time like mobile phone frequencies.

    These are defined in later treaties (once they existed), in the case of territorial waters it’s the UN convention on the law of the sea.

    Which says that sovereignty of the sea flows from sovereignty of the land, which the British undeniably have.

    Notice that the treaty of Utrecht does not define what is Spanish territorial waters either.

    Your argument is at the intellectual level of a 9 year old.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • malicious bloke

    Gibraltar has been British for 310 years (well, 311 later this year).

    The Spanish only held it for 242 after they nicked it off the Moors, you greasy implanted usurpers, you :)

    I'd say our territorial claim to it is better than theirs.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • paulcedron

    29
    british, you retarded ignoramus, is britain, period.
    you know, that swampy little island with the worst climate, the worst food and the ugliest people on earth.

    i understand that you want to have colonies everywhere, since england is really an awful, awful place.
    but you will have to settle for what you really deserve..

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 07:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • toooldtodieyoung

    30 BottyBoyPaulie

    “that swampy little island with the worst climate, the worst food and the ugliest people on earth.”

    Actually, retard, according to the French president, Finland has the worst food in the world.......... Worst Climate? Nah, you are wrong again Botty Boy. Ever been to Siberia? ( Have you ever been ANYWHERE at all? )

    Ugiest people on earth? To judge from the Top Gear Christmas special, I'd have to say that argentweenier wins that title hands down....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-30707317

    On that subject, let me say a BIG thank you to Ambassador Castro and all of the La Kampora thugs!!!

    Without your predictable short sighted, thick headedness, it would not have been the success that it is!!!

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 08:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    that swampy little island with the worst climate, the worst food and the ugliest people on earth

    Conquered half the world, but sadly not Argentina, otherwise you would not be in the bloody awful mess you are in today.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    It seems to me that pablo is very cranky. I think pablo is really missing his tampons.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 08:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    ha ha .

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Bigzap..

    Conquered half the world, but sadly not Argentina, otherwise you would not be in the bloody awful mess you are in today.

    Actually we did occupied Argentina and administered by British troops in 1806-1807,

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 09:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Britworker

    International brinkmanship isn't easy to get right, I'm not sure as a NATO member, threatening the U.S. on ending assistance on dealing with terrorists when you actually contribute very little, is a tasteful way to conduct your international affairs. I can't see how this is going to be received with anything other than utter contempt.

    These Hispanics need to learn about flair, class and charm, instead of aggression and being poor with destitute arrogance. I suspect that the U.S. are likely to listen to people with a rather more sophisticated command of the English language and breath that does not smell of chorizo.

    Chow

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • paulcedron

    tooimbecile
    it seems you are obsessed with top gear, no?
    what happens?
    they are your heroes?
    you fell in love with the 3 w@nkers?

    as for the ugliest people on earth, here you have, tooimbecile
    British people among world's ugliest
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/6542263/British-people-among-worlds-ugliest-according-to-BeautifulPeople.com.html

    Brits among the 'ugliest people in the world'
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/6542263/British-people-among-worlds-ugliest-according-to-BeautifulPeople.com.html

    Beer-swilling British women are branded the 'ugliest in the world
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/6542263/British-people-among-worlds-ugliest-according-to-BeautifulPeople.com.html

    Why Are The British So Ugly?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/6542263/British-people-among-worlds-ugliest-according-to-BeautifulPeople.com.html

    on the other hand....
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/6542263/British-people-among-worlds-ugliest-according-to-BeautifulPeople.com.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/6542263/British-people-among-worlds-ugliest-according-to-BeautifulPeople.com.html

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 10:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Britworker

    @37

    All this flattering research and attention, I think you protest too much you little anglo-phile you.

    Jan 07th, 2015 - 11:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • macsilvinho

    Hey Spain, do you remember Ceuta and Melilla?

    Jan 08th, 2015 - 01:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @37. Pauly. As usual nothing constructive to say reference the topic being discussed. Soooooo desperate. Ha ha.

    Jan 08th, 2015 - 03:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    Pablo spends a lot of time researching you Brits. I think his jealousy spurns his anger and hostility. What is so funny is he does not even life in Argentina anymore.....questionable is Pabbie ever has.

    Jan 08th, 2015 - 10:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #37
    Who cares ?

    Jan 08th, 2015 - 12:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    @22. Update 'putrid'. NO 'territorial waters in 1713. Especially, NO dago territorial waters.
    @23. So you think US possession of spain is good? So do I. Spain will learn.
    @27. Fuck off, arse.
    @30. The WORLD. Learn to die!
    @37. Why, as a matter of interest, are argie slugs displayed with British boots on their faces? Why are argies displayed running for their lives? What a shame that we couldn't have done the right thing and exterminated 11,000 argie cowards. Dumping the shark meat in the south atlantic. Next time! Exterminate 100,000! Or maybe millions. At the very least, we could make them starve. Let's just kill the slugs!

    Jan 08th, 2015 - 04:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pete Bog

    “ precisely when my country is an active member of the United States led coalition against ISIL [the terror”

    And Britain isn't?

    @4 Briton

    Good quote.

    Gerald Howarth MP added: “How dare Spain play the terror card in this tasteless fashion?

    ”Where are Spanish fighter jets as Britain and the US and other coalition members bomb ISIL positions over Iraq?

    In hangars while the pilots are having a siesta?

    Jan 08th, 2015 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 44 Pete Bog
    “”Where are Spanish fighter jets as Britain and the US and other coalition members bomb ISIL positions over Iraq?”

    The reality is likely to be much simpler to understand.

    The sapnish have had serious maintenance problems with the Eurofighter due to incompetence and lack of finance. I doubt they can operate any.

    Jan 08th, 2015 - 07:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    Today I watched on TV Parliament abt the Gibraltar question,

    it was very interesting,

    two things were noticed,
    1, and quite rightly Spain was condemned , and accused of childish behaviour , and should be ashamed, apparently being two faced over her possession's in north Africa,

    2, and sadly I counted less than 15 in parliament, it should have been more, to show solidarity.

    Jan 08th, 2015 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ernie4001

    I guess Spain is having more problems with Catalunya wishes of independence, so this complaint is just another charade.

    Jan 09th, 2015 - 03:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    @ Briton

    Really, a very interesting show. Less than 15 MPs, and Liddington... well, Liddington.

    Jan 09th, 2015 - 01:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    I think these backbenchers should try and explain what is happening to the NHS
    in the UK!! which is falling apart instead of worrying so much about Gibraltar, which by the way, has an excellent NHS in the colony....ummmmmmm

    Jan 09th, 2015 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    Glad you all agree,

    49@
    the reason the NHS was not mentioned was because the debate was abt Gibraltar. which is of great concern to us///well at least 15 MPs, lol

    Jan 09th, 2015 - 07:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @48 olisipo

    It only takes one man to invoke Article 259 and take the matter to the European Court of Justice.

    Jan 09th, 2015 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pete Bog

    @45ChrisR

    “The sapnish have had serious maintenance problems with the Eurofighter due to incompetence and lack of finance. I doubt they can operate any.”

    That figures-so they are in their hangars while the pilots have a siesta.

    Many a true word spoken in jest.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 12:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    *51 I thought you did not want anything to do with the EU!!
    Didn´t you want to go your merry way and leave the EU behind??!!
    Why mention the European Court of justice??????????
    IT IS EUROPEAN!!
    *52 Ha ve you always been an arse kisser???

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 02:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    UK is still in the EU. The Court of Justice is still in play.

    Spain should be very afraid if the UK leaves the EU because then Gibraltar becomes a UK/EU problem not an EU/EU problem. What's Spain going to do? Make it harder to cross the border........ bahahahaha

    Nothing regarding Gibraltar has gone Spain's way for over 300 years. Losers!

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 05:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • RICO

    Perhaps if Spain did more to battle ISIl they would have more influence in the US. However to unsubtley threaten to switch allegiance from NATO to ISIL if they do not get their own way is perhaps not the best strategy. ISIL has few nation states as friends. And a public declaration of support for ISIL from Spain will change it from an economically struggling nation with friends into an economically struggling Pariah. Are they expecting the Jihadis to come and fill those hotel rooms and eat all that paella when their friends abandon them?

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 10:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @53 SpanishSunshine. Always play the rules of the game, ECJ, ICJ, ITLOS.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 10:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    @54

    We are very affraid of you.

    @52

    Spanish Eurofighters patrolling the Russian border with Estonia

    http://asian-defence-news.blogspot.com.es/2015/01/spanish-eurofighters-arrive-in-in.html

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 10:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Leiard

    Wow - both of them

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 12:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    @ 58

    Four of them, the same number sent by Italy, Belgium (F-16) and Poland (Mig 29). According to Pete Bog, they cannot fly and their pilots are asleep in Spain.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 02:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    *54 You know.I know and Picardo knows that if the UK leaves the EU.
    Gibraltar will be in trouble The movement of good and people is important
    and so is the capital that is coming from the EU. Only a fool would not
    know this!!.........ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
    *55 Now why would Spain get involved in the ISIL. You blokes are doing a
    good job on your own!! keep it up chaps!!

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 02:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @60

    Spanishsunshinee

    In or out of the EU Gibraltar will thrive - Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man all do very nicely outside of the EU.

    And Spain will continue to have a shrinking population and high unemployment. So sad.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    @ 60 aussiesunshine

    Picardo has just said what you think (and what Mercopress has not published): If the UK leaves the EU, it would have “existential” consequences on Gibraltar.

    http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=35259

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 03:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @62

    And Spain will continue to have a shrinking population and high unemployment.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 04:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    *61 Wrong again!! you are stuck in the past get the updates on Spain..
    .....borrowing costs down..
    .... unemployment down...
    ....tourism up to 60 million tourist (record for Spain)
    ......foreign investment up to 30 Billion.....

    You are reading the wrong newspapers!! LOL LOL
    www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-20/spain-reaps-investment-boon-
    rajoy-reforms-lure-fdi

    *62 Olispo
    Picardo is very worried if the UK leaves..............

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 04:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    Oh their stupidity is almost cute.

    If UK leaves the EU, Spain will be no closer to gaining Gibraltar.

    Not one single inch.

    Indeed once Gibraltar is unshackled from so many EU regulations, you watch the number of Spanish companies debunk to there and STILL service EU space. The UK may indeed leave but it will still have an extremely deep and comprehensive economic relationship with the EU.

    It just won't have to worry about many regulations that Spain will still be beholden to.

    Spaniards are so stupid. It is probably the reason their country is so crap. Shrinking population. Secessionism. Returning immigrants and slowly dropping down the league tables. With double the population its economy is already smaller than Australia's and about to slip behind South Korea and Mexico this year.

    Bit hey.... let's worry about Gibraltar. Bahahahaha

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 04:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    Even Morgan Stanley is publishing Spain to be the next Germany and the Uk the next Italy......
    www.thecorner.eu/financial-markets/morgan-stanley-surprising-forecasts/18940/

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    After losing two appeals againt the new Online Gambling Law in the London High Court, the main Gibraltar “industry” has just received a new big blow. The German justice has confiscated the money won in the Rock by a German, because Gibraltar is not a licensed site.

    http://www.pokernewsreport.com/court-fines-german-resident-for-online-gambling-17619

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    LOL LOL that´s Gibraltar!!! piracy at its best!! LOL LOL

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 04:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    After losing two appeals againt the new Online Gambling Law in the London High Court, the main Gibraltar “industry” has just received a new big blow. The German justice has confiscated the money won in the Rock by a German, because Gibraltar is not a licensed site.

    http://www.pokernewsreport.com/court-fines-german-resident-for-online-gambling-17619

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 05:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @68 & 69

    Fact is, in or out of the EU Gibraltar will survive and thrive just like the Isle of Man, Guernsey and Gibraltar.

    And as the Secretary General of the UN has said, 'the 16 remaining territories that still do not govern themselves must have complete freedom of choice to determine their own future status.' And that is a future without Spain....

    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=34740#.VLFa5402aUk

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 05:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    *55 While the UK is investing in killing machines Spain is investing in saving machines in health, which, makes Spain one of the nine best health care systems in the world........The NHS is not listed in the list.
    www.careandcost.com/2011/10/22/top-9-health-care-sysyems-in-the-world/

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 05:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    Picardo: January, 5, 2015: “I don't think Gibraltar would be able to thrive economically should we be outside the EU”.

    Early last year he told the Foreign Affairs Committee that a British exit woul be “disastrous” for Gibraltar.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    And yet Gibraltar STILL won't be part of Spain.

    Must hurt deep down that little fact that you keep ignoring so diligently.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 05:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    *70 The secretary general also said there was a need of creative thinking to move forward...
    ...creative thinking..for Picardo was to throw concrete bloks into the sea.
    UUFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!!

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 05:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @74

    It's Gibraltar's territorial waters so it is up to them if they want to protect marine life from Spanish fishermen.

    Don't forget that the UK offered to go to the ICJ with Spain over the status of the Rock, airspace, isthmus and territorial waters back in the 1960s and Spain declined. Don't forget Margallo - 'Don't think Spain can win a case over Gibraltar's waters...'

    And please remember, 'Failure of a state to assert its right when that right is openly challenged by another state can only mean abandonment of that right,' Judge Alfaro, ICJ Temple of Vihear case, 15.6,62, p40.

    It is Spain that needs a bit of creative thinking to reduce its 25% unemployment.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 05:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    “*55 While the UK is investing in killing machines Spain is investing in saving machines in health, which, makes Spain one of the nine best health care systems in the world........The NHS is not listed in the list.
    www.careandcost.com/2011/10/22/top-9-health-care-sysyems-in-the-world/”

    Actual link:
    http://careandcost.com/2011/10/22/top-9-health-care-systems-in-the-world/#more-6411

    A BLOG posted on a...... BLOG.

    Wow spanish education surely is crap. Why you idiots keep posted blogs as 'proof' of something verges on the insanely comical.

    I certainly enjoy blogs that focus on how aliens live amongst us and the ones that have proof that Spaniards have lower IQs than native English speakers.

    Guess we can rule out any sort of university (and maybe even higher secondary) education for our resident idiot sunshine.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 05:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    *76 Hey stupid!! look it up in wikipedia and you will get the same results!!
    Spain placed seventh in the world. The UK placed 18th in the world......
    Hard to take that the NHS is not on the top ten!! sad really!! being the
    founders and all that..

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 05:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    @73

    Never say never.

    In 1955, Henry Hopkison, minister of State for the Colonies, said about Cyprus and other territories: There were “certain territories in the Commonwealth whic, owing to their particular circumstances can never expect to be fully independent”. In 1960, only five years after... well, you know.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @77 Spanishsunshinee

    Perhaps if Spain you didn't plunder EU hand-outs the UK would have more money to spend on a better health service.

    2013 Contributions to the EU

    UK - 11 Billion Euros
    Spain - 1.7 Billion

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    *79 by the figures you have published..Spain comes out winning.
    (pays less and receives more)....was that your point??

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 06:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 80 Spanisharseholee

    Still can't understand basic arithmetic!

    No, it proves, if proof were needed, that Spain continues to bum off all the other states who end up net payers.

    It must be very difficult to know that you are a bunch of crooks and vilified throughout the EU.

    Hang on a minute! You are a Spanish arsehole, you don't even know how much you are vilified, in fact, I bet you don't know what the word vilified means!

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    Spain should bloody well be ashamed of its self,
    at this moment in time, it is in dispute with 3 nations, Portugal , morocco , and the UK,

    it banns all nations that leave Gibraltar to fly over Spanish territory INCLUDING all NATO allies,

    without excuses , in this the 21st century Spain is acting like a spoilt child,
    its breaking EU law , as shown on the TV debate, and has been proved to turn the pressure at the border on and off at will to confuse people, and to show visiting diplomats it aint true, but when they leave they start it up again,
    for an ally Spain without exception is a bloody disgrace, so there.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    80 Spanishsunshinee. Try reading post 79 again. S l o w l y.

    Jan 10th, 2015 - 11:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    *89 I have!! Spain comes out winning!! LOL LOL

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 01:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    Wikipedia!!!!!!

    I rest my case that you are a dumb fuck. So glad you couldn't hack living in a real country and had to run home.

    But considering you name, we both know which country you know is the best in the world. Bahahahahahaha.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 01:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    *85 hey dumpster like your nick says!! take a hike!! LOL

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 02:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • paulcedron

    skip
    you are the compendium of ignorance and pelotudez.
    nobody expects that an isleter can understand it, but the whole world knows, even the british, that the british nhs is the worst in europe, and one of the worst of the western world.

    NHS is 17th in Europe-wide poll of patients
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/1564840/NHS-is-17th-in-Europe-wide-poll-of-patients.html

    Britain's NHS - One of the the worst health services in Western Europe - How it can be fixed
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/1564840/NHS-is-17th-in-Europe-wide-poll-of-patients.html

    NHS death rate is one of worst in the West: Patients 50% more likely to die of neglect than in US, says study
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/1564840/NHS-is-17th-in-Europe-wide-poll-of-patients.html

    that, between many other things, makes the uk the only 3rd world country in europe

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 02:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    The whole world knows except -dumpster-!!!

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 02:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    Blah blah blah Paul. Get a job and a support your family. We both know who lives in a 3rd world country. The one run by and supporter by Peronistas like yourself.

    Australia is still number 1 sunshine. You and I both know it. Your name screams it. Makes me warm and fuzzy that you love my country so much.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 02:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    *89 I totally agree that Australia is number 1!!! The best country in the world to
    live in!! and Melbourne the best city to live in!!

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 02:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • paulcedron

    89
    skippy
    you dont even live in a country, you asshole.
    you live in a 4th class colony.
    and that makes you a 4th class pleb.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 03:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussiesunshinee

    skippy was a great show!!

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 03:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you two aren't even proud of your own countries.

    Mine beats the crap out of both of them. Suck it up bitches.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 05:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • downunder

    89#“The best country in the world to live in!! and Melbourne the best city to live in!!”

    Hmmm Melbourne the city where the people can suffer through 4 seasons in one day! But so called ‘aussiesunshinee’ uses it as the basis for his nick. This is in spite of the fact that you have been outed on this blog as a person who couldn’t make the grade in Australia and went back to live in Spain with your tail between your legs! So where are you really? But wherever you are, I expect that you are in receipt of Centrelink benefits, the way you write reveals that you are person who believes that sponging off others is quite acceptable. You are indeed an unusual ray of aussie sunshine!

    And then we have paulcedron the well-spoken, articulate advocate for the dark side, who is so deluded that he calls Australia a “4th class colony”. And you hale from where? But hypocrisy seems to be one of your few genuine traits. You certainly don’t sound like an aussie either, far from it, you seem more like the sort of person who gravitates to the nearest mob of rock throwing Patagonians. Haters like you normally find it necessary to stay with the mob and gather false courage and inspiration from the group hysteria.

    Both of you sound like people who suffer from low self-esteem, not sure of who you are , or what you stand for, except you do know who you hate and that is anybody who is not of Spanish extraction. I am not sure that even the Spanish are too happy about you pair of losers advocating for them!

    So there we have it, so called ‘aussie’ sunshinee who is geographically embarrased and his side kick, poor paul the itchy and scratchy of MP Blog sites, the brains trust, two card carrying members of the loser’s brigade. You feel so inferior that all you can do is try and attack and denigrate successful people who you both secretly envy. What a pathetic duo!

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 06:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-the-best-out-of-11-western-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html

    NHS means British healthcare rated top of 11 western countries...

    Cost, efficiency and access to healthcare in Britain put it on the top of the pile, as Switzerland came second and Sweden third.

    Independent 17 June 2014.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 12:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • paulcedron

    94
    fourth class colony are the islets, you nincompoop.
    it is funny when you, bunch of 4th class plebs, pretend to be aussies, kiwis, saffers, even british, when the whole world knows that you are just a bunch of isleters, and even worse, employees of that useless government you have there.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • golfcronie

    @96
    And Queen Cristina had to fly ALL THE WAY TO BA to get treatment. So much for your medical services. They had ALL the equipment but none of it worked, only in BA , sorry no services outside of BA

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 03:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #96
    OK wise? one. Name ALL the Falkland Islanders who post on this site.
    “when the whole world knows”. What is it with Argentinians that this phrase is in continuous use to try and bolster their specious comments as if it gave any weight to them. I don't know the nationality of most of the posters here although I am sure that several are from the islands. Whether they are employed by the Falklands government I cannot say.
    On the other side , I would suspect that the bulk of “Argentinians” on this site are affiliated to La Campora OR support their beliefs. The bile and hatred expressed add weight to this.
    In your case you express an absolute loathing for the people and where they stay. You would never go near the place BUT you still want it.
    You seem to hate everything and everybody who don't “surf, use CT scanners, shop in boutiques or ponce about”
    You must have a miserable life to be so full of hatred.

    #78
    Well they still are not. Turkey has a huge chunk of the country. I can vouch for that having been in N.Cyprus on holiday.
    #95
    How dare you present a current independent review when you could pick up 8 year old blogs and use these to try and prove a point.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 04:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    @ 98

    After saying that Cyprus could never expect fully independent in 1955, Britain granted on August 1960 that full independence to the island. What happened four years afterwards does not deny that fact.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 06:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @99 olisipo

    After 1960 Britain was obliged to give its colonies independence.
    Cyprus was no different from Kenya or Nigeria. It is all about 'self-determination' and 'decolonisation' and a way of achieving that is through a demonstration of 'free association.'

    It would be contrary to current international law to hand over a non-self-governing territory to a third party without the will of its inhabitants.

    You can forget any return clause in Utrecht because that's dead in the water along with the 'no Jews nor Moors shall live on the Rock. In 1995 the ICJ made self-determination 'erga omnes' placing an obligation on all states to uphold. The International Law Commission and the UN Human Rights Commission regard self-determination as 'jus cogens' compelling law.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 06:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    In other words, never say never. QED.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    “After saying that Cyprus could never expect fully independent in 1955, Britain granted on August 1960 that full independence to the island. What happened four years afterwards does not deny that fact.”

    Full independence to the island?

    And Akrotiri and Dhekelia? Doesn't sound the island got full independence. Sounds like some of the island is still sovereign British territory.

    Like Gibraltar.

    Until it gets its independence. Glad you approve of these territories being granted independence.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @101 olisipo

    Self-determination: erga omnes & jus cogens

    Of course the Spanish could court the Gibraltarians and be extremely nice to them. But then the Spanish government would lose their Gibraltar excuse card.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 07:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #101
    Think on this, Britain only needed the bases on Cyprus. The rest of the island did not matter. We knew the divisions that would happen if they got independence and it came to pass. A good percentage of the Greek Cypriots wanted unification with Greece -“Enossis”- whereas the Turkish Cypriots did not. Also, it was only BECAUSE of these British bases that the Turks did not take over the island and incorporate it into their country as they did in the northern part. So, the CYPRIOTS got independence , of sorts.

    Again, the Cypriots wanted independence and got it.
    The Gibraltarians DON'T.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 08:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    @102

    It is true that Akrotiri and Dhekelia were obtained under duress by Britain in 1960. But all the remaining Cypriot territory is since then fully independent, in spite of the utterances presented five years before by the British Government.

    As for Gibraltar getting independence, please read the HMG despatch letter published with the Gibraltar Constitution Order 2006, which excludes that possibility because of to the Article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht and the return clause to Spain. This is the textual reasoning of that HMG document. Try to discuss it with your government.

    Jan 11th, 2015 - 09:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    So you agree that not all of the island of Cyprus was given independence. Wow for a Spaniard you must have been the odd one out at school.

    Aah yes the despatch letter. Not actually part of the constitution. It is a cover letter. Nothing more.

    But as you seem to LOVE this despatch so much let us look into it a little further shall we....
    “... Gibraltar enjoys the individual and collective rights accorded by the Charter of the United Nations”

    As for the defunct and unimportant Treaty of Utrecht, that would be where the UK Government CLEARLY states that “Gibraltar does not accept that this constraint exists”. Oops!

    The despatch states that the UK Government believes that Spain has rights should “Britain ever renounce sovereignty”. Sorry but that scenario doesn't cover a unilateral declaration of independence.

    Indeed the actual Constitution instead doesn't mention “Spain”, “Spanish” or “Utrecht”. It does however say quite clearly:
    ”Whereas all peoples have the right of self-determination and by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development and may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit and international law;
    And whereas the realisation of that right must be promoted and respected in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations and any other applicable international treaties;

    The UN however does support Gibraltar's right to declare independence and you will NEVER find proof or evidence from the UN to say otherwise.

    Spain will never rule Gibraltar again. It's the 21st century and colonialism is dead. Move on and get over it. It is quite pathetic really sobbing over something you lost 300+ years ago. Being Spanish isn't a prize anyone normal person would choose.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 12:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @105. Olisipo. The return clause in Utrecht is dead just like the no Jews nor Moors shall live on the Rock killed off by self-determination which is now regarded as erga omnes and jus cogens. You can forget any letters dispatched by the Blair government to 'curry favour' self-determination rules. The fact that Spain declined to go to the ICJ with the UK back in the 1960s over the status of Gibraltar also kills off any claim by Spanish acquiescence.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 04:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    But maybe if they make the border queues just a little longer Brit Bob.... then Gibraltans will just suddenly see the light!

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 06:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    Oh, I see. The wise theory of all of you is (a) that HMG does not recognise the validity of the treaty of Utrecht; (b) that the present Cameron government is not bound by the documents on Gibraltar issued by a previous government only eight years ago.

    Thanks a lot. With friends like you Britain doesn't need enemies.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 12:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @109 olisipo

    'A treaty or any of its provisions, is void if its performance involves an act which is illegal under international law and it is declared so by the ICJ.' (article 15 vol II ILC Yearbook 1953, p93). The ICJ in their 1995 East Timor Judgment declared self-determination as 'erga omnes' which means it places an obligation on all states to uphold the right. In the light of this judgment the ILC and the UN Human Rights Commission have said that the right to self-determination is 'jus cogens' compelling law.

    So just like the no Jews nor Moors shall live on the Rock, the return clause in Utrecht has been confined to the bin.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 02:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    Discuss that with HMG. They don't agree with you.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 03:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    It is international law.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 04:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    Like the Hirst case of the ECHR in 2004. When Britain doesn't like the ruling of an international court successive British government disobey it. Pffffff.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/briefing-papers/SN01764/prisoners-voting-rights
    Not true. The judgment was against a total ban on prisoners voting. Prisoners on remand can vote. The UK government is seeking to introduce legislation that allows prisoners serving less than 12 months to vote.

    Like the Cordoba agreement in which Spain agreed to stop seeking to exclude Gibraltar from EU aviation measures?

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 05:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    Quote the article of the Cordoba agreement (a negotiation with many oscillations, not international law) in which Spain engages itself on the Single European Sky. That is a frequent distortion of the British propaganda.

    As for the Hirst case, HMG only has ceded in a part, the prisoners on remand, not the many prisoners who remain jailed.

    It is clear that Britain only obeys the international law when it likes to do so.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    An agreement no less. Just like the Pact of Cartagena.

    The ECHR judgment went against blanket bans which the UK is in the process of rectifying.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    The Pact of Cartagena of 1907, which Britain infringed two years after, raising the fence on ground which had not been ceded by Spain? Do you mean THAT?

    As for the ECHR ruling, ten years after being dictated, Britain keeps violating it. How fair, the British sense of respect to the international law!

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 07:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    The Pact of Cartagena in which Spain recognised British land and maritime possessions in the Mediterranean.

    The UK is in the process of rectifying the blanket voting ban so its being dealt with and no longer relevant.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 07:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    That Cartagena document of 1907, which Britain violated two years afterwards, building the fence on ground which had never been ceded by Spain? Do you mean THAT?

    As for the ECHR ruling, ten years after the UK keeps disregarding it. The UK and international law, two contradictory notions.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    119 Yes and you can do nothing about the Isthmus because: (I) You have signed the Helsinki Accord which maintains that borders in Europe can only be changed with consent and

    (II) You have acquiesced to the position because Spain failed to go to the ICJ when given the chance in the 1960s.

    In any case, the current border is close to where it was when the Treaty of Utrecht was signed. La Linea is in the old northern neutral zone and Gib airport is in the old southern part.

    The ECHR ruling will be dealt with in due course and is on-going.
    Prisoner voting rights is no big deal and differs from country to country.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20447504

    The major difference with the UK is that prisoners can milk the legal aid system and pursue a case unlike a lot of other countries.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    In Helsinki, Spain kept its Gibraltar claim. The document included, thus, the notion of the possibility of changing any border by peaceful means.

    Your fanciful and hundred of times repeated idea that Spain hast lost its rights on Gibraltar in the 1960s is absurd. It seems that, like Goebbels, you think that writing the same propaganda almost every day has the effect of transforming a falsehood in the truth.

    It is revealing what you write about the prisoners' political rights.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 08:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    'by consent'

    AND

    'Failure of a state to assert its right when openly challenged by another state can only mean abandonment of that right.' Judge Alfaro, Temple of Vinear Opinion. You were challenged by the UK government in the 1960s when they asked Spain to accompany it to the ICJ over the Isthmus, status of the Rock, airspace and territorial waters and declined. That means acquiescence through the rules of 'extinctive prescription.'

    As I have already pointed out, prisoner voting rights differs in each EU country. The UK is still in the process of changing the rules.

    Prisoner's voting rights varies fro country to country.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    Seems like a new name for Pagina boi. AT least she was more imaginative this time.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 09:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    Spain has always claimed Gibraltar since 1714.. The idea of acquisiton by prescription implies that Spain has never protested, what is untrue. The Helsinki agreement, where Spain explained with detail its claim, consolidates this fact.

    Your description of the political rights of the prisoners as “no big deal” speaks by itself.

    Jan 12th, 2015 - 09:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    Wrong again. In the 18th and 19th century you had to retake what had been lost 'by force' within 30 years otherwise it was lost by 'prescription.' Protest didn't materialise until late in the -9th century. Then after the formation of the world court system in 1922 a country had 30 years to bring a territorial claim to the court otherwise it was lost under 'extinctive prescription.' Then if challenged like the UK challenged Spain to accompany it to the ICJ means that Spain has acquiesced to British possession. Spain does not have a sovereignty case over Gibraltar it has 'a pretence' of a case which rests on the so-called return clause in Utrecht where it has to try to deny that Gibraltarian's do not have the right to self-determination, already affirmed by 1 ICJ judgment, 4 ICJ Advisory Opinions, 2 UN Covenants and the vote of the UN Fourth Committee undertaken on 20th October 2008 which affirmed that self-determination was an inalienable human right. Spain''s so-called sivereignty case is both pitiful and a joke.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 04:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    Your litany of mistakes is so long and boring that I won't waste my time quoting all of them. Only three. First, Spain protested against the occupation of Gibraltar since 1714, not until “late in the 19th century”. Read, for instance, the solemn declaration of December 1726. Second, it is childish your tactics of elevating to the rank of universal doctrine the opinion of one judge (Alfaro) of the twelve which ruled in the Temple of Vinear affair. And third, the final declaration of Helsinki, which is not a treaty, nor binding, as you seem to think, does not say that the change of borders can be achieved by “consent”, but by“peaceful means”.

    Please, try yours tricks with other person. I am fed up with yours.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 09:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    Gibralter is British full stop,
    The falklands are British full stop,
    until they say otherwise,

    Argentina and Spain have a simple choice,
    either you accept this Fact,
    or take it to the ICJ ,
    or withdraw from the UN and the Human Rights of people, and become isolated and detested by the free world,

    your choice, your decision.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 11:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @126 olisipo

    Wrong.

    'It cannot be seriously doubted that long-term continued firm possession, especially if practically undisputed by force is sufficient to create sovereign title.' The lapse of time is described as, 'it is generally said that a lapse of time allowed for a new generation to be born and educated and come into possession of the powers and duties of the State, furnishes the negative limit.' (Elements of Law, Wheaton H. Cpt IV P164 & footnote 101)

    So my dear olisipo, sovereignty protests didn't come into it in the 18th and mid 19th Centuries.

    So that's :

    (I) Conquest
    (II) Treaty
    (III)Prescription
    (IV) Extinctive Prescription - failure to present sovereignty case to the world court post 1922
    (IV)Acquiescence - failure of Spain to take up the UK's offer to go to the ICJ in the 1960s over the Isthmus, airspace, territorial waters & status of the Rock
    (V) Self-determination - Confirmed by ICJ Advisory Opinions & Judgment

    Not forgetting, 'A treaty, or any of its provisions is void if its performance involves an act which is illegal under international law and if it is declared so by the ICJ' (Yearbook of the International Law Commission 24 March 1953, p154) The ILC and the UN Human Rights Committee have declared that 'self-determination is jus cogens, compelling law and the ICJ declared self-determination as erga omnes in 1995 -placing an obligation on all States.

    Regarding the Helsinki Accord, the ICJ used it in their Kosovo Opinion and would merely remind Spain that they have signed the Accord to the fact that 'borders in Europe can only be changed 'by consent.'

    v

    What?

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 12:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    What in my previous post did you misunderstand? Enough of cheap tricks, please. The Spain claim exits since the 18th century, and persists today. The Helsinki agreement, which is not binding, does not say what you think. And lastly, your ICJ ruling of 1995 has been ignored by Britain in 1998 in Hong Kong. Erga omnes? Yeah. If you believe that Spain will renounce to its rights on Gibraltar, take a very comfortable seat.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 12:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    Erga Omnes did not apply to Hong Kong because post 1995 Hong Kong was not classified as a non-self-governing territory it was de-listed at the request of the Chinese and the decision regarding hand-back at the end of the lease was agreed inthe early '80s. As I explained, if the matter ever went to Court the ICJ would merely refer to the Helsinki Accord as they did in their Kosovo judgment. The Spanish claim to Gibraltar, as have already proved, rests on the fairy tale that the Gibraltarians do not have the right to determine their own future. That would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 02:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    Do you seriously believe that I ignored the Anglo-Chinese dirty trick to to delist Hong Kong in 1972 in order to not submit the future of the territory to the will of its inhabitants? It seems that you are proud of that. Pffft

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 02:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    Just stating the facts about Hong Kong Olisipo. As I have stated, and proved above, Spain's Gibraltar claims rest on the fairy tale assertion that the Gibratarians do not have the right to determine their own future. An assertion that would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful.
    A sovereignty claim without a case is an illigitimate claim and worthless.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 02:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    Sorry, to write that you were only stating the facts is mere hypocrisy. Britain contrived the 1972 delisting with China, supported it and achieved so not to consult the Hong Kong inhabitants about their future. Who is telling fairy tales?

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 03:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    Olisipo. Merely stating facts - self-determination only applies to non-self-governing territories and was only made erga omnes in 1995. So with the UK having conquest; treaty; prescription; extinctive prescription; acquiescence and self-determination what is the Spanish claim to Gibraltar based on if not based on fairy tales?

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    Well, I see that you keep endorsing the 1972 dirty trick. You have a funny idea of what is just and fair. I repeat, buy a good chair while expecting that Spain admits that its territory remains as a British outpost.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    Gibraltar is not Spanish territory. And the ICJ has already determined in para 80 of the ICJ Kosovo Opinion 'that the scope for territorial integrity is limited to the relationship of individual states and does not impinge on self-determination or independence.' So Spain's assertions are irrelevant.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 03:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    What is really false and irrelevant is, among others, your assertion that Spain has lost its rights on Gibraltar because of the opinion of ONE of the twelve judges of the ICJ in an obscure dispute about a Cambodian temple. As it seems that you don't know many aspects of the matter, I suggest you not to invoke interpretations of texts like the Helsinki final act, which is not a treaty. Meanwhile, the UN keeps Gibraltar in the list of territories which must be decolonised. Wait and see who will win this dispute.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 04:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    Wrong again. Many ICJ judges have commented on acquiescence. Look at the Miniques and Echeros case where the ICJ asked France why they had not sought a judgment on the UK's possession. Also, regarding that old Territorial integrity argument, it is only individual states that have signed the UN Charter so it only applies to the relationship between those states and does not prevent the break up of a state which is an internal matter. As I have already said, if the sovereignty of Gibraltar ever went to Arbitration, the ICJ would refer to the Helsinki Accord, as they did in the 2010 Kosovo Opinion. The plain and simple fact is that Spain's sovereignty claim on Gibraltar rests on trying to deny that the Gibraltarians dio not have the right to determine their own future status. And that is a fairy tale.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 04:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    Most of your reasoning rests on the ICJ ruling on Kosovo, para 80, which says: “The scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States” But after that sentence you add a completely different text, which doesn't appear in this paragraph: “and does not impinge on self - determination or independence”. After that example, let me read your reasonings and quotes with a lot of skepticism. I rest my case. Bye.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 05:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    Wrong again.

    Para 80 of the ICJ Kosovo Opinion also places emphasis on the Helsinki Accord and states,

    'the Helsinki conference on security and cooperation in Europe of 1st August 1975 (Helsinki Accord) stipulated that. ''participating states will respect the territorial integrity of the participating states. Thus the scope for the principle of territorial integrity does not impinge on the international law of self-determination and independence.'

    Here's some more examples of acquiescence for you:

    Certain Phosphate Lands Case, 26 June 1992, p17, para 32

    'the Court recognises in the absence of applicable treaty provision, delay on the part of the claimant State may render an application inadmissible.'

    and

    Judge Carneiro, ICJ Minquiers & Echros Case, p64/65

    'Yet while the latter (UK) acted and continued to exercise sovereignty , the French government was satisfied to make ''paper'' protests. Could it not have proposed arbitration. The failure to make such a proposal deprives the claim of much of its force; it may even render it obsolete.'

    I have more.

    Fact is, as I have stated, the Spanish sovereignty case over Gibraltar rests entirely on denying that the Gibraltarians do not have the right to self-determination which is hogwash.

    I'll call a witness:

    'the 16 remaining territories that still do not govern themselves must have complete freedom in deciding their future status,' Secretary-General of the United Nations Ban Ki-Moon, 18 May 2010.
    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=34740#.VLVoeY02aUk

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pete Bog

    @137 olisipo
    “What is really false and irrelevant is, among others, your assertion that Spain has lost its rights on Gibraltar because of the opinion of ONE of the twelve judges of the ICJ in an obscure dispute about a Cambodian temple”

    However, every time Brit Bob quotes from a ruling you make a weak attempt to criticise them, but don't come up with many other rulings to support your side of the argument and counter Bob's.

    It's a bit weak calling his referencing tricks-it is an excuse for the fact that you can't counter them and reference something that proves your argument.

    I haven't heard your cast iron evidence that self-determination does not apply to Gibraltarians. Your only riposte seems to be that Britain did not respect self determination in Hong Kong.

    That's all well and good but China doesn't respect self determination in Tibet or Taiwan.

    However, Britain has in the main respected self determination. How many of Britain's former colonies where the inhabitants wanted independence, (or did not want Britain's rule) were denied self determination?

    Is India still British? No, because of self determination.

    Are Britain's former African territories British? No, because of self determination.?

    If you represented Spain at the ICJ and British Bob represented Gibraltar, I have little doubt that he would win, as the 'tricks' you accuse hjm of are references to judgements, whereas you cannot present ones to counter him every time.

    I have to say I find it rather strange that when Spain were challenged to go to the ICJ in the 1960s they refused.

    Why, if they had a cast iron case?

    Why do the Spanish claim that the Treaty of Utrecht did not grant Gibraltar territorial waters, yet when Margallo was asked if Spain would challenge this, he piped down saying it was unlikely they would win the case.

    Why? If Spain had a rock solid case, they should be itching to challenge Gibraltar's territorial waters, not deflecting the question.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 06:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • olisipo

    @ britbob

    I could't believe what I saw when reading three times (both in its English and its French version) paragraph 80 of the ICJ advisory opinion on Kosovo. I hesitated before writing my previous post because, though I disagree with most of you write, that manipulation in really unbecoming. Now you insist, what, I regret to write, shows that you behave with an absolute bad faith. Don't expect that I answer your posts henceforward

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 07:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    olisipo

    Yes small error on my part, para 80 of Kosovo Opinion should read, 'the Helsinki Conference on security and cooperation in Europe of 1 August 1975 (Helsinki Accord) stipulated that, ''participating states will respect the territorial integrity of the participating states.'' Thus the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between states.' End.

    It thereby indicates that the principle of territorial integrity does not impinge on the international law of self-determination and independence.

    This was also assumed before 2010.

    Article 2 of the UN Charter provides that: 'members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state.' This international legal rule applies only to states because 'members' under the UN Charter are only states. This leads to the conclusion that the principle of territorial integrity is the principle applied in relations between states and not inside a single state. (International Journal of Baltic Law, Volume 2, No2, Gudeviciute V. 2005, p50.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    So as I said all the way back in Post #106:
    “The UN however does support Gibraltar's right to declare independence and you will NEVER find proof or evidence from the UN to say otherwise.”

    As Olisipo was so kind to point out in post #137:
    “Meanwhile, the UN keeps Gibraltar in the list of territories which must be decolonised. Wait and see who will win this dispute.”

    That in itself negates all of Spain's claims because decolonisation by its very definition means not having sovereignty of a territory residing elsewhere..... such as in Madrid.

    The listing of Gibraltar by the UN as a territory requiring decolonisation has nothing to do with Spain's futile dispute.

    Spain will never rule Gibraltar again. It's the 21st century and colonialism is dead.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 09:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    Gentlemen , you are talking to a tape recorder,

    they have only one answer , one course , one directive,

    the British are always in the wrong.

    Jan 13th, 2015 - 11:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skip

    Haha and yet the British keep getting it right!

    Jan 14th, 2015 - 04:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0

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