MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Should UK Overseas Territories have representation in Westminster?
A recent formation of the Friends of the British Overseas Territories, FOTBOT, had an interesting participation at the British parties conferences this season with fringe meetings open to the public and panel discussions on political issues pertaining to the British Overseas Territories, including whether BOT's should have representation in Westminster. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesThey certainly should and this will give the definitive message to Argentina and its alleged supporters.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 05:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0Definatley agree whole heartedly Gord
Oct 15th, 2015 - 07:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0It is in the pipeline...
Oct 15th, 2015 - 09:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0A federal UK with constituent countries having almost (except defence, foreign affairs, etc.) full fiscal independence would be ideal. All the BOTs could be incorporated with representation proportional to population.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 10:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yes I agree,
Oct 15th, 2015 - 10:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0also I think the UK should re-open some
overseas bases like Bermuda,
and a submarine overseas base in the south Atlantic,
just my opinion.
Note the report does not include the views of Edwards or Picardo. What was their opinion ? It is not a commonly held view in the OT's that Westminster representation would be a stronger position.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 10:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0100% Yes! I would vote for that! territories should be given the option which would lead to voices being heard in the UK
Oct 15th, 2015 - 11:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0No, definitely not. We have our own elected government with the power to make legislation. Having MPs at Westminster would make our government subordinate in a way that it isn't now. We have our own laws and our own constitution, and we aren't a part of the UK. At the moment, the UK government can only intervene where there is evidence of poor governance.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 12:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And it wouldn't send a message to Argentina; it would give them a stick to beat us with.
Monty69: you could design a system where only limited responsibilities are delegated to a federal UK parliament. In reality I think it would be the same as the status quo except that the Islands would have a strong voice in the parliament. Where you might lose out though would be the issue of taxation - there would presumably be some federal income tax to pay for UK wide defence and foreign service.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 01:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In fact this would be fairer to everyone.
FIG contribute to the infrastructure of MPC through our taxation system. And contributes to defence through funding the FIDF, which provides among other services, a mountain rescue service, and being a tricky local opposition for exercises with the UK forces.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 02:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Altering our constitutional relationship with the UK would be a major decision with long-lasting implications. It isn't about money.
#10
Oct 15th, 2015 - 02:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I guess an independent Falkland Islands could also be beneficial with an independent voice in the UNGA.
@8 yes Monty I think you have hit the nail on the head. It certainly raises problems of the disparate interests of the BOTs and the crown Dependencies such as the Channel Islands and the IoM.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 02:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't think a rep in the House of Lords is acceptable as peers are appointed not elected.
As for the House of Commons its agreed that there are far too many MPs anyway and constituencies should be altered to elect fewer MPs representing a larger constituency.. However two parliamentary constituencies with small electorates, Orkney and Shetland and the Western Isles can not be modified by law.
So as regards the Crown Dependenciies with a population of c 270,000 there is a case for each electing an MP. But they are governed by Tynwald and the CI States parliaments,some of the oldest in the world and they would have to surrender some of their hard won liberties such as tax raising and other legislation to the UK government which wouldn't be popular.
As an aside do they CDs and Bots participate in EU elections?
In almost all cases UK is responsible for Defence and Foreign Affairs, so should Future BoT MPs only be allowed to vote on these issues?
Turning to the Bots for reasons of proximity they could be grouped into four regional constituencies
1. Caribbean 64,00 + Bermuda 64,000
2. Atlantic. St Helena, Fi, gib and possibly Akotiri. About 50,000
3. Pacific? Insufficient population. Pitcairn on which the G24 committee devotes so much time to only has less than 50 inhabitants.
So a discussion on this forum might be an interesting exercise. Ideas?
Dear, oh dear, oh dear. Shall we start at 8? In the UK, 650 MPs discuss and debate. Don't they take into account peculiarities of individual constituencies? We've been doing it a long time. You ARE subordinate. Because you are a trust territory (wherever you omit to mention that you're from) and the UK is the trustee.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 02:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@12. Monty doesn't have a clue. BOTs rely on their “friends” and the pretty useless FCO. Perhaps BOT MPs could only vote on BOT-related issues. Note the foreign territories of other countries that are not defined as “colonies” by the UN as they are represented in the metropolitan state. Every BOT removed from the UN list of NSGTs at a stroke. Might it be the end of argie lies?
13 Conqueror
Oct 15th, 2015 - 03:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You're kidding yourself. Do you actually think that one MP among 650 would have any chance at all of meaningfully representing a territory's interests? In fact you're deluded if you think your MP represents your constituency in any way that makes a difference.
Let me spell this out for you. If we become part of the metropolitan state, then we have no right to self-determination, and no recognition by anyone of our right to a say in our own future as a distinct 'people'. Our future becomes a matter for the government of the day, and the Argentines. As things are, we have rights recognised by the UN as a NSGT. Those rights, incidentally, include the right to develop our resources as we see fit, and to raise and spend our own revenue.
There are growing numbers of Britons who believe it is time the Falklands were integrated into the United Kingdom, becoming just as much a part of our country as Wales, the Shetlands, the Scilly Isles and all the other constituent parts.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 03:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When so many of our colonies look back with affection and longing to when they were part of our empire, the islanders' incorporation into the UK would be a superb way to confirm our links with our kith and kin in the South Atlantic.
St Pierre and Miquelon off the coast of Canada are legally parts of France, so why shouldn't the Falklands, if they so choose, be part of the United Kingdom?
The issues concerning the BOTs, are not issues that would be best dealt with by Parliament. They are best served by local decision making.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 03:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Although there is no reason why their interests couldn’t be represented in parliament, by adding the territories to an existing constituency.
This is how Gib is represented in the EU parliament with no loss of local control.
Comment removed by the editor.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 04:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is Argentina now ready to negotiate renouncing forever its (alleged) claim to the Islands?
Oct 15th, 2015 - 04:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If not, then there is still nothing to be said, is there!
First rule of negotiation is that you have to have something to negotiate with.
What has Argentina got eh, a completely baseless claim, pure fiction.
No, it’s another surrender for you, within 25 years.
@pcIV/cara de orto podrido/idiot child/paulcedron
Oct 15th, 2015 - 04:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just one question for you - please advise us which of all those territories that previously were part of the British Empire are still British territories against the wishes of the democratic majority of their inhabitants?
And, by the way, kindly advise us where the UN demands the end of colonisation against the wishes of the inhabitants of those colonies.
I have to agree with Monty.
Oct 15th, 2015 - 04:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think that the BOTs all have different needs and different visions for the future, some of which might be full independence.
Although this idea might work and be popular with some BOT's it certainly won't 'solve' anything, especially for Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands.
Remember that Argentina and Spain use their so-called 'grievances' to distract the great unwashed masses from the absolute mess they've made of their countries, so whether or not the FI's or Gibraltar were suddenly considered a fully integrated part of the UK, wouldn't stop the lies and the vitriol.
And I think that BOTs' would lose more than the would gain. They would have laws, regulations and red tape foisted upon them, they'd have to follow stupid EU and UK legislation, not just the sensible ones, and they would truly lose their independence.
This may suit some BOTs' but I doubt many would want it.
Right now they all have their cake and can eat it too. In other words they are all practically independent, except for defence and assistance with foreign affairs, and they have the option of becoming fully independent at some point in the future if they wish.
Argentina and Spain can expel as much hot air as they wish, but neither of them have the military capability to take these British territories by force, and neither of them have the moral high ground, and neither of them can produce any argument that overrides the UN Charter and the inalienable right to self determination.
So in 50 years time, when Argentina has disappeared up it's own hoop and become a Chinese colony, the Falkland Islands will still be a BOT or they will have chosen full independence.
Paulie, best learn how to kowtow, the sooner the better because your Chinese masters will demand it, whilst you're working (yes working - an alien concept to you) 18 hours a day in state run factories for peanuts.
Having an MP with the same voting rights any MP would mean the BOTs have integrated into the UK and integral parts of states don't have the right to self-determination in international (no, Scotland's referendum was an entirely internal UK matter, not the exercise of a right in international law).
Oct 15th, 2015 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Integration has happened in the case of French, Danish and Australian territories, and in the case of Alaska and Hawaii which became US states, but not in the case of Puerto Rico and Northern Mariana Islands. These two each elect a delegate to the House of Representatives who can vote in committees but not in the House.
Only the municipalities Bonaire, Saba, and Sint Eustatius vote for Dutch MPs. The countries Aruba, Curacao and Sint Maarten don't. The Council of Ministers of the Kingdom of the Netherlands is made up of the Council of Ministers of the Netherlands plus 3 Ministers Plenipotenciary for the 3 countries. They can speak in parliament but they don't have a vote.
If the BOTs want formal UK representation, but don't want to lose the right to SD, something similar the US or Dutch ways, or even a combination, might be a way to go. Ministerial representation would allow the BOTs to take part in formal government decisions regarding them, which they couldn’t do with only parliamentary representation. The BOTs already have the Joint Ministerial Council, maybe it could be adapted and given some decision making powers.
Conqueror, the BOTs are not Trust Territories. These were a separate group of territories which had been the remaining Mandate Territories of the League of Nations. None remain on the NSGT list.
Redpoll, only Gibraltar is part of the EU and they vote as part of the South West England EU constituency. The others are not part of the EU, although as British citizens they’re also EU citizens.
#17
Oct 15th, 2015 - 06:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0it seems they do not understand that the whole world, including the UN, demands the end of colonisation
But they do !!!! That is why Argentina will never get it's grubby hands on the FALKLANDS..
We all have an opinion,
Oct 15th, 2015 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0but options are very limited,
no theories-just facts,
1, independence
2, part of Britain,
3, part of Argentina,
4, your opinion,
and last but not least, number 5,
and that people, is for the BOTS to find out in time,
your decisions, your future.
@17
Oct 15th, 2015 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“it seems they do not understand that the whole world, including the UN, demands the end of colonisation.”
Yet Argentina wishes to colonise the Islands.
So Argentina has no wish to assist decolonisation.
Your point makes no sense whatsoever.
If you want representation in the UK Parliament...Pay UK Tax like everyone else has to...
Oct 16th, 2015 - 01:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's always cake and eat it with the BOTS....
Contribute through the UK tax system for your defence...instead of freeloading...
Or...send your voluntary contributions to me directly and I'll graciously accept them on behalf of the UK....
22
Did you hear about the WW2 submarine mine they exploded at Gourock today...a diver found it....they evacuated the high street and surrounding houses then towed it up the Clyde a bit and detonated it....
25 thinksvoiceOver
Oct 16th, 2015 - 02:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Did you hear about the Troll and the Argie that went into a bar... ?
more “voice” wee-man nonsense...
25 Voice
Oct 16th, 2015 - 02:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0Has anyone, one single person from the OTs said they want representation in the UK Parliament?
Nooooo. No, they haven't. So pipe down you boring fake Scotsman, or whatever you're pretending to be in this incarnation. It's those ellipses that give you away.
But thanks anyway, we'll bear that in mind, if we ever do want representation in the UK Parliament.
..... ;-))))
Oct 16th, 2015 - 02:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0..... right...., AVoice ofThinks..... ?
...... ..... :-D .......
Ja ja ja ...... !!!!
“Should UK Overseas Territories have representation in Westminster?”
Oct 16th, 2015 - 04:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0They might, but the UK will probably no longer be a member at that time. Why in the Lord name should you be given a seat in the British Parliament? You don't pay taxes there and the islands belong to Argentina. On the other hand I would love to hear what those squatters in Malvinas have to offer to UK taxpayers besides more years of bad relations with Latin America.
29 Marquita
Oct 16th, 2015 - 05:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0Is that a real question ???
or... are you just looking for an opportunity to repeat hackneyed old inanities that have been refuted successfully, time and again?
irrelevant dimwit - get lost
@29 Marquitoa Alejandrino
Oct 16th, 2015 - 05:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0More of your juvenile and uninformed drivel! “but the UK will probably no longer be a member at that time” - what does this mean? The UK a member of what?
On the other hand, how can 6 and 7 generations of families live in the FALKLANDS and be defined as squatters? Are you quite sane?
29 Marquita Juvenil
Oct 16th, 2015 - 06:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0UK not be a member of what?
Ho ho - you are truly the intellectually laziest, least informed, most childish, and stupidest Troll on this site.
LOL - idiot!!
@32 Troy Tempest
Oct 16th, 2015 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And so say all of us!
Monty (#8) is correct. the whole point of the UK's relationship with the BOTs is that the BOTs are made responsible for their own affairs. There are several issues here and one is existential within the UK itself, right now. It is known as the “West Lothian” question.
Oct 17th, 2015 - 01:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0To explain: The West Lothian issue was raised by a former MP, Tam Dalyell. His point was this: suppose Scotland has its own parliament responsible for Education. Suppose at the same time that England does not have this, and Education in England is run from Westminster. Why should a Scottish MP have a vote - at Westminster - on an education bill that affects England only?
That is the current situation in the UK, and it is clearly wrong.
Should the BOTs have Westminster representation, their current situation is called into question. UK policy is that BOTs are self-governing: in my own case [Gibraltar], we set our own taxes and pass our own laws: the UK is only responsible for defence and foreign policy.
Under the twin principles shown by the West Lothian Question, and the “no taxation without representation” issue, it would be wrong for Gibraltar to have a Westminster MP. Our MP would then have a vote on issues that do not concern him or his constituents.
The only way out of this conundrum would be full incorporation of the BOTs into the UK, following the French and Spanish model.
This raises two problems: 1/ it signals to the BOTs that they are not 'ready for self-government' and runs counter to the UK's policy of self-government; and 2/ it gives the irredentist regimes of Argentina and Spain a stick to beat us with by returning us to genuine colonial status, as are, say, Ceuta or Melilla.
Without complete constitutional reform, this is unworkable.
Raal interesting discussion and informing apart from the interventions of the immature tadpole pollywiggle Paulie who the editor has finally banned , voicey who planted a mine in a swimming pool in Gourock. Perhaps he was hoping to blow up some rubber ducks?
Oct 17th, 2015 - 02:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0To be serious ( why even bother to reply to thes e sad trolls) , apart from that, yes of course the West Lothian question has been kicked around for some time without so far any resolution
1. Great Britain has never opposed requests for independence for her former territories though sometimes against opposition .
2.by incorporating the 17 Bots into the homeland of UK the G24 Un committee would have no further reason to exist as has happened with France, Denmark and Holland. Bots want to keep their queen as titular head of state as do the Dutch, Danish and even the self governing Commonwealth countries, So why not?.
3. Only two Bots are under threat, Gib and the FI and so Defence is high on their priorities.
4. So who pays for their defence? A double edged sword (excuse Pun)
Belize once independent had a defence treaty with UK against invasion of their newly independent pendant state against threats from Guatemala, a battalion and a squadron of Harriers until 1994. Who paid for that? But at the same time it was an excellent training base for Brit troops in jungle conditions
So who owes what to whom?
The Sultan of Brunei has a battalion of Ghurkas and other support as well as training missions for the SAS. I presume he pays for it so the Army gets its jungle training for free
4. RAF pilots cannot train in low level flying over much of the UK. No problem in the FI. So? Who pays who?
The question is will a representative from the Malvinas to the UK legislature prevent the return of the islands within the next 25 years. The answer is no.
Oct 17th, 2015 - 03:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0@36 HEPATITIS
Oct 17th, 2015 - 05:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0The question is - why do you keep having to extend your 25 years? The answer is that the Falklands will NEVER become part of Argentina.
Oh no, not her again!
Oct 17th, 2015 - 09:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0ls there no end to her boring stupidity?
Hepatia, get lost & close the door on your way out.
36 Hepatia
Oct 17th, 2015 - 11:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ignore her/him/it/that. Nothing to add, nothing to say because she has lost the argument. Leave the poor little thing to wallow in her dementia and delusion. She is a lost cause and knows it, which is why she repeats her inanity like some pathetic inmate of an asylum.
@36
Oct 17th, 2015 - 01:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To be an MP, you have to represent an area of land, not a mildew infested vineyard.
Prepare for Santa Cruz and Ushuaia to be governed competently by the FIG when they are returned within the next 25 years.
Monty, LEPRecon and sceptic64 are in the right of it. Effectively incorporating the BOTs into the United Kingdom is not a step forward but a step back, what would we then be but remote, artificial extensions of the United Kingdom? or to put it another way...colonies.
Oct 17th, 2015 - 01:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In the case of the Falklands such an act would indeed send a strong message to BA, I reckon we'd here the champagne corks popping from here if we handed them such a validation for their accusations of British imperialism.
@36 for Hepatia
Oct 17th, 2015 - 02:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The moving finger writes and having writ
Moves on. Nor all thy piety or wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a line
Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it”
I sometime wonder if your post name is a reference to your real one, Lilly Liver but of course it can't be.
No I think the Ballad of Lilly the Pink sung by the Scaffolds is more in your line of fabulous medicinal remedies. Listen to it, it cures Everything even a sex change.
Your theory on the elasticity of time is interesting and I'm sure Professor Stephen. Hawking would be interested to include it in a further edition of A Brief History of Time
Far be it from me to insult any lady named Lilly so here is a closing quote to fan your vanity.
“Consider the lilies of the field; they toil not neither do they spin
But Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these”
@42 redpoll
Oct 17th, 2015 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Brilliant.
So re you all saying that distance equals colony status, and not full citizenship,
Oct 17th, 2015 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0the reason I ask,
what do you call Hawaii ???????????
@44 Briton,
Oct 17th, 2015 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Don't confuse her with facts!
malvinistas don't do honesty & truth.
We shouldn't answer the silly moo.
lt only encourages more of her nastiness & stupidity.
Getting back to our original thread.
Once l thought that we would be better off being a part of the UK, but now l'm with Monty & LEPRecon.
Whatever we do, its absolutely no concern of Argentina at all.
@40 Pete Bog,
Completely agree.
Sta Cruz actually belongs to us.
l demand(Argentine favourite word!)that the implanted Argentines immediately leave.
l'm sure that we can do some sort of deal with the surviving Amerindians.
To both our advantages for a start.
@44 Briton
Oct 17th, 2015 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What you need to remember is that we are not part of the UK: we are a legacy of Britains colonial past, now in the halfawy house of being a British Overseas Territory and this isn't a bad thing, it allows us to grow and develop in our own way with assistance where neccessary from the UK (which is the responsible path for a former colonial power).
I, like many Islanders, have strong connections with the UK but this does not mean that I would like to see the Falklands governed by Westminster. We are quite capable of looking after our own governence and it is our right to do so.
Voicy, when the bang went off I soppose those incontinence pants saved the day eh?
Oct 18th, 2015 - 06:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0@45 Isolde
Oct 18th, 2015 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“@40 Pete Bog,
Completely agree.
Sta Cruz actually belongs to us.”
History tells no lies, and the Hallidays et al co-existed with the local Indians. Perhaps Ushuaia with it's links with Keppel is less 'Fallkands than Santa Cruz, but it was founded by Britain so we could grant it to the Falklands anyway.
Funny wasn't it when the British founded Ushuaia it wasn't to eliminate the Yaghans but to Christianise them (Jemmy Button et al), at Ushuaia and Keppel Island.
@26 Gone but not forgotten, I see. Would someone kindly pass on my best wishes to Think next time he's on? Many thanks.
Oct 20th, 2015 - 06:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@49 George,
Oct 20th, 2015 - 09:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Talking to yourself is the first sign of madness, Dod.
@49 thinks voice over,
Oct 21st, 2015 - 02:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0wtf, nobody gives a shit about you, “voice”.
Yes, of course. Elementary, my dear Watson.
Oct 21st, 2015 - 03:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Philippe
51
Oct 22nd, 2015 - 01:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0Not me fool.....
Oh and err.....fool....
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