Argentines held 232.5 billion dollars overseas in 2015, almost 10bn dollars over the previous year, according to the latest report from the country's official Indec stats office. The report, International Investment position is a financial balance account of Argentina with the rest of the world and records the market value of Argentine residents external assets and liabilities. Read full article
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Since Argentina's history is one of theft of the holdings of its residents and the forced conversion of dollars into worthless pesos, keeping one's resources outside of Argentina is the only reasonable thing that can be done with it.Jul 13th, 2016 - 02:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Article from 2012:
....pesification – a word guaranteed to send shivers down the spines of Argentines who remember all too well how their decade-long dollar peg was ditched after the country’s $100bn default in 2001, forcing a return to pesos amid a brutal devaluation....
The story shows how, when most Argentines struggle to make ends meet, a small number of them do have the capacity to take assets abroad, flouting the law and evading taxes. (See today's MP article on how HSBC got away after whistle-blower Hervé Falciani revealed its dealings helping drug money laundering--as well as the existence of over 4,000 secret accounts from Argentine citizens).Jul 13th, 2016 - 07:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Prat Gay's amnesty is just a reward to those people that offers the possibility of avoiding the sanctions and confiscation that the government will be able to apply in January 2017.
... a small number of them do have the capacity to take assets abroad.....Jul 13th, 2016 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
No, it's a very large number. It's estimated that over 50,000 Argentine residents squirrel some of their money in foreign accounts or other holdings. There were more than 4000 involved in just one HSBC branch, and there are hundreds of institutions that facilitate safekeeping of dollars outside of Argentina. Dollars, because nobody in their sano juicio wants to keep an argie peso for very long.
An extraordinary number of Argentines know from past experience that an Argentine bank, ultimately controlled by Argentine governments, is historically a rather unsafe place to keep your money, lest it be forcibly converted to worthless pesos or simply embargoed on a political whim. That is why Argentine mattresses are full of dollars and not pesos, and why almost everyone who can do so, will move their hard-earned money to places where the historically incompetent but thieving Argentine governments will have to work a little harder to steal it.
#3 MartiJul 14th, 2016 - 03:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
No, it's a very large number. It's estimated that over 50,000 Argentine residents squirrel some of their money in foreign accounts or other holdings.
OK then. Fifty thousand citizens amount to about 0.1 per cent of Argentine's population of nearly 44 million. One tenth of the famous 1 per cent!
Are you quibbling over semantics here?
Ha, Enrique the solver of all Argentinas problems NOTJul 14th, 2016 - 04:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Why do argentos hoard dollars where their governments can't easily get them? Because of the history of Argentine governments. Duh.Jul 14th, 2016 - 05:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Article: Argentines Are Hoarding 1 Of Every 15 Cash Dollars In The World
(the article from 2013 indicated some US$ 50 billion in US currency is hidden away by millions of Argentines)
Reekie: Prat Gay's amnesty is just a reward to those people that offers the possibility of avoiding the sanctions and confiscation that the government will be able to apply in January 2017....
It was not so long ago that CFK tried this little bring-back-those-dollars amnesty trick as well. It didn't work so well then, either. Small wonder.
Wall Street Journal, 2013: BUENOS AIRES—Argentines who have undeclared foreign-currency savings now have until the end of the year to bring that money out of the shadows under an extension to a tax-amnesty program aimed at alleviating a shortage of U.S. dollars in the South American country. President Cristina Kirchner is offering generous terms to those who invest their hidden U.S. dollars in an economy hobbled by a lack of greenbacks. The three-month program that ended Monday brought in less than $400 million, well short of the billions the government had hoped for. ....
Shortage of greenbacks?
We know that the number of hundreds in foreign circulation rose from 58 percent to 62 percent between 2008 and 2011. We do not have an estimate of where they went. The Fed does. It’s a good bet Cristina Kirchner does, too....
US$232.5 billion? Where did they steal all that from. Never mind. Seize it all and then ask the Falkland Islanders whether it would be sufficient for war reparations?Jul 14th, 2016 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@2 Reekie,Jul 14th, 2016 - 09:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
”The story shows how, when most Argentines struggle to make ends meet, a small number of them do have the capacity to take assets abroad, flouting the law and evading taxes.
Besides agreeing 100% with Marti Llazo @1, as being the only solution to try to maintain your wealth, I find your above assertion quite interesting : Obviously you are condemning those that had the good sense to invest their cash elsewhere, and quite probably only what remained after having paid their taxes in Argentina, just to see them robbed - but what intrigues me is the fact that YOU left Argentina and went to live in Canada....WHY ? I presume you haven't got any investments in Argentina, you don't pay any taxes in Argentina, so what the hell are YOU going on about ???
Do you care to tell us why YOU left your beloved Argentina to live in the 1st world......perhaps because you found the former unviable ?? anyway, you have the chance to tell us now.....if you're not just a pussy..
As to the amnesty mentioned by Mr. Prat, he's gotta be a real prat is he thinks people are going to bring cash back, just for the privilege of having up to 15% stolen.
No surprise that the same Law, passed in Brazil about a year ago, was a complete failure.
Latest news: CFK's daughter Florencia was found to have US$4.6 million in cash in her bank deposit box.Jul 15th, 2016 - 01:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0
As the authorities were closing in on her in recent days, Florencia made public statements to the effect of well, open the boxes -- I've got nothing to hide but later corrected her earlier comments by saying not those safety deposit boxes; the other ones.
When asked for comment, her mother wondered aloud why her daughter had not simply thrown the money over the wall of the convent.
#8 JackJul 16th, 2016 - 02:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0
OMG! Let tears flow for those poor citizens, who had the good sense to invest their cash elsewhere...after paying their taxes.
Come on Jack! Who are you trying to kid?
You know well it's a small group of Argentines who spirit their money--big money--out of Argentina through secret accounts such as 4,000 held at the Swiss branch of the HSBC or through Mossack Fonseca, (txs whistle blowers) where President Macri appeared, together with a handful of heads of state, listed as head of a company he did not disclose as mayor of Buenos Aires.
Besides, you are misinformed. From January, Argentina will be able to get information on foreign accounts held by citizens, and that's why an amnesty with little or no penalties was big help for cheaters.
Hey Marti. You must feel free to express your opinions no matter how backward--and I will be the first to support that right. However, you are not entitled to come up with fiction to back your points.
Florencia Kirchner asked that the boxes be opened, but ”later corrected her earlier comments by saying 'not those safety deposit boxes; the other ones.'”
She had two boxes; one with the $4.6 million--the other was empty. Both were opened at her request and the contents verified. The money had been declared.
@10Jul 16th, 2016 - 04:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Quite the dance you are trying to do here, Komrade Rique. But seriously, tell us where all that money little Florencia was holding REALLY came from?
@11 It looks like the count on that money is revised so US$ 5,696,145Jul 16th, 2016 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Regarding Reekie's characteristic ability to follow events. Reekie: She had two boxes; one with the $4.6 million--the other was empty.
No - the investigators have reported that the cash bills were: ....repartidos en dos cajas de seguridad y una caja de ahorro...
Reekie: Is three boxes greater than one box?
Florencia claims the money came from her parents. An inheritance if you will. But investigators did the arithmetic and Florencia's claims don't add up. Meanwhile, the money is under embargo.
@10 ReekieJul 16th, 2016 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
OMG! Let tears flow for those poor citizens, who “had the good sense to invest their cash elsewhere...after paying their taxes.”
Come on Jack! Who are you trying to kid?.
Am not trying to kid anyone. The fact that high-ranking officials in many governments, especially the populist, left-leaning ones in South America, over the last decade, have stolen billions in taxpayer money, is notorious ; besides, what about the fact that the taxpayer usually gets very shoddy public services, or none, in return ?
So why not 'save' a bit of your money while you can ??
Besides, you are misinformed. From January, Argentina will be able to get information on foreign accounts held by citizens, and that's why an amnesty with little or no penalties was big help for cheaters.
Can you back this up with facts ? not with just Reekie spec'eja'culation' ?
Sounds to me that this is just wishful thinking on your part, as it is extremely unlikely that the banks which thrive on such practices, will voluntarily kill the goose that lays the golden eggs ; further, if what you allege is true, that the secrecy will be lifted, and those who agree to repatriate it to the Argentine will only pay up to a 15% penalty, why doesn't the Argentine government simply confiscate 100% ? and more, is this special favour - the banks giving information on foreign accounts held by citizens - being extended only to Argentina - because of their fantastic negotiation skills (demonstrated time and time again) - or to any countriy that wishes to get their hands on easy money ? I agree that in specific cases where the so-called tax-evaders are legally condemned for such practises, secrecy may be lifted and the funds repatriated (confiscated), otherwise unlikely.
So, 1) please back up your statements, and 2) tell us why do you live in Canada if life in Argentina is so good ?
Sure. It's a great step ahead, long-time a-coming:Jul 17th, 2016 - 04:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0
1) Automatic information-sharing between banks across the world means HM Revenue & Customs will soon be able to catch evaders almost anywhere, reports The Telegraph.
More than 90 jurisdictions will begin to share the financial details of British residents, including bank accounts, property and trusts, which the Revenue can use to impose criminal sanctions and penalties on tax evaders.
The Telegraph includes a map of the countries that will exchange information, of which notably the U.S. is not part.
2) I do live in Canada and also follow what happens in my the country where I was born--Argentina. I haven't said life there is so good. And no, I do not have any reason and even less any obligation to tell you why I live here and not there.
Maybe some of that sharing of bank information will reveal where CFK has stashed her ill-gotten gains in accounts around the world. I wouldn't count on it, though.Jul 17th, 2016 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@14 ReekieJul 17th, 2016 - 04:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Yr (1) Automatic information-sharing between banks across the world etc.....
The day banks share information - without a court order ( which goes to the specific cases of condemned felons, as mentioned in #13), will be the day ; One of the characteristics of the banking system is its secrecy, its confidentiality, and which is only broken with justified, legal cause.
“More than 90 jurisdictions will begin to share the financial details of British residents, including bank accounts, property and trusts, which the Revenue can use to impose criminal sanctions and penalties on tax evaders.”
You stated in your #10, that Besides, you are misinformed. From January, Argentina will be able to get information on foreign accounts held by citizens, etc....”
I highly doubt that such confidential information, despite the fact it may refer to what I will call 'illegal transfers', for argument's sake, will be obtained by any government, through simple request. Anyway, by what you allege in # 14, it would appear that you are presuming all tax-evaders in Argentina, responsible for the US$ 232.5 billion , are holding their assets in British banks.....rather a stretch ; but going further and presuming all your allegations are true, Argentina then knows who is holding what, abroad.....so why not confiscate all the money from these 'illegal transfers' , instead of being content to get only up to 15% of it ? Does not make sense, neither do any of your allegations.
Yr 2) I do live in Canada and also follow what happens in my the country where I was born--Argentina. I haven't said life there is “so good.”
Nothing more normal to follow events in your country of birth ; As to stating you
haven't said life there is “so good.”, is a clear indication that you, deep down, know all too well, WHY life there IS NOT so good. So why not admit that the K's screwed things up ? As well as why you abandoned your homeland ?
#15 MartiJul 17th, 2016 - 05:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Maybe some of that sharing of bank information will reveal where CFK has stashed her ill-gotten gains in accounts around the world...
I would hope that ANYBODY being caught with money illegally spirited out of the country will be punished. I would not include or exclude anybody based on my political sympathies as you do.
I highly doubt that such confidential information...will be obtained...
I share your doubts. I hope it works because much of the drug traffic, illegal weapons trade and tax evasion depends on bank secrecy.
...you are presuming all tax-evaders in Argentina...are holding their assets in British banks.
Jack, Jack. I am not presuming anything. I just gave you the example of a British-based article that of course is Britain-focused.
What counts is that More than 90 jurisdictions will begin to share the financial details Comprende?
It will be interesting to see how long the remaining countries will avoid joining in on this transparency effort--notably the U.S.--top hypocrite!
Then, Jack goes on to say, presuming all your allegations are true...
Jack, Jack. I guided you to information provided by a newspaper such as The Telegraph and you still call it my allegations?
Now about your why not confiscate all the money...
Excellent question. Could that be because many in the current government illegally hold assets abroad--including Macri as revealed by the Panama Papers?
@17 ReekieJul 18th, 2016 - 07:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
What counts is that “More than 90 jurisdictions will begin to share the financial details” Comprende?
Sim, compreendo ...muito obrigado. But still have to see it to believe it.
Ok, so based on the information provided by The Telegraph”, HMRC will be able to track evaders who (pay taxes in Britain and) hide their cash in the 90 plus jurisdictions..... so meanwhile it's a one-way street, between Britain and the mentioned jurisdictions. Considering the above article (and the report by International Investment Position”), where , according to Prat ...... that an international tax sharing agreement that begins in 2017...., how is it to be put in motion ? One thing is (the Government) to offer amnesty (under certain conditions) for voluntary repatriation, another is a Law obliging it, which can only be enforced if the government has access to all this (currently) confidential information ; I don't see Argentina, or Brazil for that matter, achieving great success in their attempt to discover /repatriate money stolen by politicians, or confiscate drug money, currently stashed in other countries.
#18 Jack BauerJul 19th, 2016 - 04:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Agree. It's an uphill battle to try and break mechanisms put in place benefiting the big fortunes of this world. There is enough wealth to appropriately feed, clothe and educate every single person in this planet--particularly children--and we need a better system to achieve that.
Meanwhile, any step in the right direction is a good step and should be encouraged.
@17Jul 19th, 2016 - 09:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0
...the drug traffic...
Which you have condoned all along, supporting the government export of Methamphetamine precursors to Mexico to be turned into Meth to smuggle north to your hated gringos.
Yes, like the ones you and the rest of your bipedal locusts felt should be killed in the womb, Señor Would-Be Sarmiento/Mitre. This is why I look forward to justice being done, and the pleasure of reading your obituary. Here's hoping it is sooner rather than later. ;)
Argie peso continues its slide into the great toilet of worthlessness: at nearly 15.4 pesos to the US$. And reasonable predictions of 16/US$ by the end of the year, with year-end inflation expected to be 38-40 percent. The country remains in recession, with deficit spending and massive subsidies for segments of the population where no such subsidies are needed.Jul 19th, 2016 - 02:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Meanwhile, a better understanding of the extent of the lies from CFK's INDEC is developing. It seems CFK's government even lied about census numbers and had official data evidence destroyed. May be another opportunity for criminal prosecution of still more Kirchnerista officials.
@19 ReekieJul 19th, 2016 - 04:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Time will tell how serious all this talk about Automatic information-sharing between banks across the world is...
#21 MartiJul 19th, 2016 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
As usual, Marti struggles between contempt towards Argentines, high hopes on neo liberal Macri (now increasingly being dashed), and his terror that at some point Argentine citizens will realize that--with all its flaws--Kirchnerism wasn't as bad as thought!
”This is why I look forward to justice being done, and the pleasure of reading your obituary. Here's hoping it is sooner rather than later. ;).”
No surprises here. The above lines provides good information about the anonymous writer and his dream that a bothersome messenger will eventually be shot.
@23 reekie's capacity for misunderstanding and misstatement continues to amaze our gentle readers. He should have noted that I have taken every opportunity to observe that the Kirchner chickens are coming home to roost in the form of indictments and prison sentences, and that Kirchnerism was and continues to be one of the most deleterious influences on a country that excels in the creation of new and more poisonous forms of Peronismo. How quickly do you expect the effects of the crimes of the Kukkarachas to be undone? We are discovering every few days new evidence of Kirchnerist corruption and malfeasance -- including the discovery of the fraud in the census as I mentioned in that earlier post. If you ever visit Argentina, reekie, be aware that the country will not be taken seriously for many decades, if ever, and certainly not until the last peroncho has recanted and been forgotten.Jul 19th, 2016 - 06:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
People, People the repatriation of offshore capital only serves those positioned to pilfer it via governmental channels because rg is entrepreneurially impotent.Jul 20th, 2016 - 03:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0
#24 MartiJul 20th, 2016 - 05:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Marti. I admit to mistakes and corruption as the judicial system issues convictions--during the K government. However, with all its flaws, the highly criticized administration walked towards making the country more inclusive, to stimulate domestic production and to strengthen consumption by the poor and the middle class (which more than doubled in size during Nestor and Cristina).
Now, Marti becomes desperate to excuse recessive and other highly insensitive measures of the Macri government.
How quickly do you expect the effects of the crimes of the Kukkarachas to be undone? he proclaims.
Well. The Macri administration had quite a few good cards to play after finding a country with high inflation but low-level foreign indebtedness, low unemployment numbers and other other indicators in the black.
And what has he really done in seven months?
In another reply, I quoted a The Economist article published on July 9. I will again let the experts speak, starting with a quote where Macri backtracks from campaign promises:
“I didn’t say that all of Argentina’s problems will be resolved in the second half of the year, Macri said as quoted by The Economist.
Now, the article continues, Mr Macri, whose approval ratings have fallen to 44%, is hoping that the statistics improve by the year’s end.
If not, Argentines may end up trusting him no more than his predecessor.”
Again, I could not have said it better.
So reekie, Argentina was an economic disaster before, and is still an economic disaster. Poverty in Argentina was about 30 percent before and it's about 30 percent now. Of course, CFK lied about poverty. CFK lied about growth. CFK lied about inflation. CFK even lied about her being an attorney. CFK lied about, well, just about everything. It turns out that the country was and is a lot worse off than we thought, once we get past CFK's lies.Jul 20th, 2016 - 06:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
It's going to take many decades before Argentina might be considered a serious country.
What conclusion can we draw from this continuing series of economic disasters? Think about it. It explains why you don't live in Argentina.
#27 MartiJul 21st, 2016 - 06:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Marti: I will explain something so you don't come here for nothing.
The Kirchners, improving the Peronist model, based their policies on strongly invest on developing domestic consumption power, among other things by lifting people to the middle class--which indeed doubled in the last decade. They substantially reduced the foreign debt in relation to the GDP, focusing on the country's own resources instead of focusing on outside help.
Macri, instead, is a government of the rich, for the rich that aspires to come back to the agro-export model and wants to tip the national income distribution in favour of the local wealthy and foreign corporations.
He had a golden opportunity to go soft and gradual, as did former Canadian PM Stephen Harper, who did so and got a second election. Macri, instead, has gone full steam ahead and in seven months has performed economical and social butchery.
When people become mad, he speaks again about la pesada herencia (heavy inheritance) because he needs time--he needs people to look the other way while he performs his ax surgery without anesthetics.
Problem is, he's gone too fast, too deep.
As I said before, the Argentina wealthy class is too greedy and too myopic--governments that try a better re-distribution of the national income makes them extremely mad.
That is the reason for the Argentine long lasting political pendulum--every time a government achieves some social progress, the wealthy's only thought is to destroy such progress and go back to their backwards country model.
Reekie, tell us about about how CFK vastly increased her fortune during the reign of kirchnerismo, and how she left Argentina bankrupt, with an abysmal and failed education system, a broken infrastructure, enormous unpaid debts, an economy deep in recession, shortages of materials for its backward industries, and the disdain of the civilised international community. Tell us how the neo-Stalinist Kirchner prevented the importation of books and magazines from outside Argentina under the hilarious regulation that claimed that non-Argentine publications used poisonous ink.Jul 21st, 2016 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
And you wonder why Argentina is the laughingstock of Letrine America?
@29 Marti LlazoJul 21st, 2016 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Don't hold your breath for Reekie's 'honest' answer......first of all, it's too personal, and second, it's a lie.
#29 MartiJul 22nd, 2016 - 05:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Talk is cheap, but you rely too much on right-wing crazy CATO institute and pay little attention to balanced, serious information.
The book and magazine story for which you call Nestor Kirchner neo-Stalinist was a led-content regulation that made a lot of sense.
Neo-Stalinist not less? You try hard and risk being ridicule, Marti. What's next? Children-eater?
...an economy deep in recession...
I will only say that Cristina left a country with:
(From non-Argentine sources)
A low debt-to GDP ratio: 48 per cent. (Highest 166 per cent in 2002, lowest 33 per cent in 2011)
Canada: 59 per cent.
Relatively low unemployment: about 7 per cent. (Highest 20 per cent in 2002, lowest 5.9 per cent in 2015)
Now, for the current times let's see what Bloomberg is saying:
Argentina’s economy is faltering after Macri devalued the peso and removed utility bill and transport subsidies, prompting a slump in the peso and leading the central bank to raise interest rates. Annual inflation has soared to more than 40 percent, while investment has declined. Macri has said the economy will return to growth in the second half of the year.
Argentina is the laughingstock of Letrine America
I will abstain from commenting about this, Marti. Only that you are taking a lower road as time goes.
@31 The book and magazine story for which you call Nestor Kirchner “neo-Stalinist” was a led-content regulation that made a lot of sense. Jul 22nd, 2016 - 08:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Not Néstor. This was a Cristina measure.
It made no sense, except to Peronismo. This was nothing less than a ploy keep dollars from being spent on foreign published material -- mostly books and magazines, but also textbooks and scientific information -- and to keep that dangerous printed material out of the hands of the argentine proletariat. It had no serious functional relationship to public health, though that was the excuse created by the Peronists, and the measure blocked imported books whether they contained any measurable toxic material or not. Even books and magazines printed with vegetable inks were denied. This classic sort of Peronist measure served Kirchnerist populism very well because overpriced material published in Argentina should not have to compete in an open market, nor should argentismo be intellectually polluted by books and magazines from outside the country.
Some people were able to work around the CFK prohibition on importation of foreign books by either purchasing outside the country (mostly Uruguay and Chile) but even then, some imported books could be denied entry by Argie aduanas, particularly if an English-language book contained a map that did not meet Argentine national standards. But to get a book by mail into Argentina, from a source such as Amazon, you had to first register with the Kirchner government. So yes, there was a great deal of restriction on importing foreign books and magazines during the Kirchner reign (and very high costs), and so comparing the controls to neo-Stalinism is quite appropriate. And it is for reasons such as these that Argentina under CFK gained the recognition as the Hazmerreír de Sudacamérica.
#32 MartiJul 22nd, 2016 - 10:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Oh please stop Marti! I am moved to tears.
So the unique effort (Plan Raíces) that brought back to the country over 1,000 Argentine scientists and researchers (no other government ever did that) was probably a dream.
Listen: I could understand you being full of hate against Néstor Kirchner and Cristina Fernández. Politicians are fair game after all.
However, adding up insults against Argentina and then (why stop there?) tarnish Latin América as a whole is a bit of a stretch. Surely shows more about yourself rather than hurting your intended targets.