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Montevideo, June 2nd 2023 - 12:42 UTC



Kirchner family in court: Florencia, Maximo and Cristina charged with corruption and money laundering

Monday, March 6th 2017 - 17:25 UTC
Full article 76 comments

The two children of Argentine ex president Cristina Fernandez, Florencia and Maximo Kirchner, showed up in court on Monday morning to be questioned on a case involving a family company which owns several hotels and allegedly has been involved in money laundering and unlawful association among other crimes. Read full article


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  • Kanye

    Ha ha... it doesn't get any better!

    Mar 06th, 2017 - 05:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • ElaineB

    And yet when I wrote about this Kirchner scam - having witnessed it first-hand - there were many here who didn't believe it.

    Mar 06th, 2017 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +5
  • imoyaro

    Cue the Addams Family music...

    Mar 06th, 2017 - 08:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Kanye



    Mar 06th, 2017 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • The Voice

    Is Fat Max chewing another pie?

    Mar 06th, 2017 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Enrique Massot

    “Ha ha... it doesn't get any better,” Kanye says. Well: for rara avis Kanye (seldom we see such inexperience and backwardness on a same person) he does not even know how right he is:

    MP imitates more and more the game of the oficialist media in Argentina: publish stories ad nauseum about Cristina, her family, Lazaro Baez and Jose Lopez.

    Meanwhile, ignore that today the school year was going to start but did not, as teachers are on a two-day strike and today marched by the thousands to Buenos Aires downtown.
    Come on Elaine, Kanye and company!

    Go see how it looks when the rubber meets the road:

    Not only that: keep an eye on tomorrow's march of the CGT, which has also decided to declare a one-day general strike by the end of this month.

    As I said before: Argentines have endured many bad governments and dictatorships, but none lasted for long.

    I am sorry for the islanders who put their hopes on British boot-licking Macri. Ask for reimbursement!

    Mar 07th, 2017 - 04:06 am - Link - Report abuse -6
  • Kanye


    Oh gosh, I'll borrow a page from your book.

    Evita K and her blood sucking children are up on charges, but a diversionary “protest” is launched by “teachers” the same day!

    Did La Campora and Evita have them bussed in again and given a free lunch?

    Are these “teachers” the same unemployed La Campora 19 yo thugs that posed as 60 yo Malvinas Veterans to attack Clarkson in Patagonia??

    You are too much mr Kirchnerista Massot!

    Psst. Evita ain't gonna sleep with you no matter how much you cultists worship her.

    Mar 07th, 2017 - 08:10 am - Link - Report abuse +4
  • golfcronie

    Sentenced in 10 days? You could't make it up. How long has Nisman been dead, murder or suicide that is the question.

    Mar 07th, 2017 - 09:52 am - Link - Report abuse +5
  • ElaineB

    Oh Enrique, you let yourself down by trying to divert attention from the subject. This is major news. A former President is in court and being charged with corruption so why wouldn't we be commenting on it? Because it interfere with your idealism about CFK? Reality is a bitch.

    You might like to know that the teachers used to strike regularly under the K's administration. So regularly that children's education was severely disrupted. I didn't blame the teachers as they were rarely paid on time or at all. Have you visited any schools in BsAs? No, of course you haven't. I have and most you wouldn't keep a dog in let alone leave your child there.

    You really need to get some first hand experience of the country you claim to love.

    Mar 07th, 2017 - 10:20 am - Link - Report abuse +5
  • GALlamosa

    Oh dear.

    Mar 07th, 2017 - 11:06 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • imoyaro

    Komrade/Kamerad Rique, back to the same old same old. But seriously, if they are so underpaid how did Baradel become this obese? I remember when he used to appear to be channeling his inner Facundo, but now?

    Meanwhile, back to the topic of the article...

    Mar 07th, 2017 - 11:24 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Briton

    I am sorry for the islanders who put their hopes on British boot-licking Macri
    [ have you ever licked boots, the polish tastes really bad..

    Argentines have endured many bad governments and dictatorships, but none lasted for long.

    Tell that to the thousands and thousands that were killed or disappeared.

    Mar 07th, 2017 - 02:19 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Jack Bauer

    Let's see who the incredulous were....Reekie Massot, Axel, Marcos Alejandro, Chimp McStink, Hepatia.....(“farinha do mesmo saco”).

    Seems that presidential families getting caught up in corruption and organized crime is a South American malady (but no surprise) ....the Lulas da Silva, The Kirchners, the Hugo Chavez clan (or should I say 'gang'), Maduro's crime sindicate...yawn...

    Mar 07th, 2017 - 04:16 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • ElaineB

    @ JB

    Don't forget ChrisR who tried to discredit me in every post.

    It seems to me the Bolivarian countries excel at corruption. Their art is to have some orator peddling false hope to the mass crowd whilst their gang pick the pockets of the audience. Their pathological believers seem to have a huge capacity for editing the truth.

    Mar 07th, 2017 - 04:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +6
  • imoyaro

    Sad part is even if found guilty their followers (La Campora, Quebracho, Vatayon Militante/Pinguinos) will no doubt engage in wrecking and sabotage. What a train wreck.

    Mar 07th, 2017 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +5
  • Skip

    Enrique says: “Argentines have endured many bad governments and dictatorships, but none lasted for long.”

    So why has Argentina fallen so far behind everyone else if they've never lasted that long?

    Your blindness is what drove you to raise your family in a well run and less corrupt country

    Mar 08th, 2017 - 03:18 am - Link - Report abuse +6
  • Enrique Massot


    The mobilizations against Cristina happened much late in her term and cannot ever be compared to the one that took place Monday after just a year of Macri government.

    Two days in a row--100,000 people marching on Monday and 100,000 people marching on Tuesday to protest against president Mauricio Macri.

    And the cheerleader group of MP commentators stubbornly stick to its screenplay: “let's keep talking about Cristina.”

    Come on, people. None of us can change a iota what will happen in Argentina--that is to be decided by the people down there. What we are able to choose is to be either keenly aware of what happens--or just close our eyes and keep listening to ourselves.

    I know islanders wanted Macri to succeed. They would've been safe for a long time. I would have been okay with it too if it meant well-being for the majority of the people. He had a honeymoon that lasted much longer than Trump's. He was able to count on disfunctional unions and Peronists. Still, Macri failed. Why? Because he does not care. He took 50 days of holiday so far and is too busy making good business operations for his family and associates. Sad.

    Mar 08th, 2017 - 07:08 am - Link - Report abuse -6
  • imoyaro

    My, my, Kamerad/Komrade Rique... 100,000 criminals (La Campora, Quebracho, Vatayon Militante/Pinguinos) plus a bunch of overfed “Teachers” marched? I hope Baradel was able to work off a couple of pounds. Should any thinking person be impressed? Well maybe in terms of the number of freeloaders in Argentina trucked out on display. There is no dearth of wasters like you there. Too bad you missed the festivities. But then, you can't return, now can you? (Supporter of the torturer Peron that you are.) ;)

    Mar 08th, 2017 - 09:13 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • ElaineB

    @ EM

    You are not making much sense in your distraction post. There is no comparison between Macri and Trump but there are many similarities between CFK and Trump. They both embrace populism, isolationism, refuse to speak to the press and call them 'the enemy'. Both have dubious business operations (scams), show overblown paranoia, possess uncontrollable tempers (CFK herself admitted this), have huge paper-thin egos, and are pathological liars.

    EM, I have visited Argentina for a very long time and lived there for several months at a time, for successive years. Your assertion that teachers were striking 'only at the end of her Presidency' is false. When I first lived in BsAs there were on average 350 protests per month of various sizes. All under the Kirchners.

    But getting back to the subject of this thread, do you really believe CFK acquired her extraordinary wealth legitimately? Because if you do you must be the only one. She abused her power and now she has to pay the price. This is HUGE news as she was once a President. It won't go away if you close your eyes and wish so I suggest you don't read the Argentine press for a while. You can't silence us.

    Mar 08th, 2017 - 10:35 am - Link - Report abuse +5
  • imoyaro

    Elaine, please, stop with the facts and the logic. You are hurting him. ( I do hope you know I am joking. Seriously please keep up with the facts, they are always enlightening.)

    Mar 08th, 2017 - 10:58 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Pugol-H

    Check the Convents, see how many more bags of cash there are lying about.

    Mar 08th, 2017 - 04:36 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • golfcronie

    Typical Argies , sooner go on strike than do any work

    Mar 08th, 2017 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    Yeah, that kind of thing never happens in the UK:

    Mar 08th, 2017 - 08:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • ElaineB

    @ DT

    I wasn't talking about teachers in particular. As I mentioned in my post the teachers were often paid late or not at all under the Kirchner's so their striking was understandable. They also work in atrocious conditions with scarce supplies. (Our teachers would soon stop mithering if they had to work in those conditions).

    However, some of the protests I witnessed were purely organised to create chaos. Some Argentines would argue it was their only option to exercise their democratic voice, whilst others roundly condemned them as interfering with their right to go to work and earn a living.

    I witnessed several 'manifestations' outside foreign owned businesses and embassies sent by the Kirchner thugs. Often the protesters didn't know why they were there but had to go or lose their jobs. It really was closed-shop mentality. The K thugs liked to damage property mostly and start fires to impress.

    Most protests were peaceful and took on a party atmosphere. Walking around Buenos Aires as I did every day I would pass at least one protest - you can hear the drums before they appear - and often several. But there is no doubting they achieved very little. And if you spent any time in Argentina you would understand very quickly that they spend more energy avoiding work than actually working. It is the culture.

    Mar 08th, 2017 - 09:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Think


    “And if you spent any time in Argentina you would understand very quickly that they spend more energy avoiding work than actually working. It is the culture.”..., says a British Turnipette in 2017...

    “NEGRO, Homo pelli nigra, a name given to a variety of the human species, who are entirely black, and are found in the Torrid zone, especially in that part of Africa which lies within the tropics. In the complexion of negroes we meet with various shades; but they otherwise differ far from other men in all the features of their face. Round cheeks, high cheek-bones, a forehead somewhat elevated, a short, broad, flat nose, thick lips, small ears, ugliness, and irregularity of shape, characterize their external appearance. The negro women have the loins greatly depressed, and very large buttocks, which give the back the shape of a saddle. Vices the most notorious seem to be the portion of this unhappy race: idleness, treachery, revenge, cruelty, impudence, stealing, lyng, profanity, debauchery, nastiness and intemperance, are said to have extinguished the principles of natural law, and to have reproofs of conscience. They are strangers to every sentiment of compassion, and are an awful example of the corruption of man when left to himself....” said a British Turnp Encyclopedia in 1798...

    Some Turnips never change...

    Mar 08th, 2017 - 10:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -7
  • DemonTree

    That was meant to be a reply to golfcronie, not you. I think it's pretty understandable for anyone to go on strike if they aren't paid on time - or at all, or even if they are just being forced to take a pay cut wrt inflation. And it's hardly limited to Argentina; the French are especially infamous for striking all the time.

    What were these 'manifestations' all about then? Being threatened with losing your job for NOT striking sounds a tad backwards! What were they actually protesting?

    And more time avoiding work than working? What, everyone? Seems unlikely, and I get the impression that Think disagrees...

    Mar 08th, 2017 - 11:23 pm - Link - Report abuse -6
  • Think


    Mar 08th, 2017 - 11:44 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • ElaineB

    @ DT

    As I said, the K's would send their goons to make a noise outside foreign owned businesses in order to create chaos. If you spent any time in Argentina you would soon understand the general work ethic. In all cultures there are exceptions.

    Think's opinion is irrelevant. He is just here to shit stir and call people silly names. Infantile and irrelevant. If you are interested in engaging with him ask him about his hobby of playing with his own shit and he will delight in describing it to you in great detail.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 01:11 am - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Troy Tempest


    Elaine has been consistently and reliably been telling us for years about life and events in Argentina.

    Her story confirms what others tell us. Under the K's, government jobs were doled out by the regime and often managed by their thugs and indoctrination arm, La Campora.

    Foreign businesses and the media were politically targeted for protests.

    Government employees were unofficially 'expected' to attend to protests or lose their cushy sinecures. It is very likely they were not really aware of the 'why's', just the obligation to go.

    However, there were also many legitimate demonstrations against the K's. On one such day, at least 1m pot-banging ordinary citizens were said to have marched against CFK.

    Enrique Massot does not dwell on that.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 01:14 am - Link - Report abuse +5
  • Kanye

    I get the feeling, Voice is using his DT login accidentally.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 01:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    What I have seen outside the red house makes Parliament square look tame. At least in both countries you CAN demonstrate but in RGland Camping it up rentamob thugs are a hazard.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 07:59 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    Yeah, but why did they want to create chaos? Did they want the foreign owners to sell up, or pull out of the country or something? And why? I would think most governments don't want protests, especially  that kind that makes it look like they have lost control.

    And I just find it hard to believe that is the general attitude in a whole country. Someone must be getting things done. But I've never been there so what do I know?

    Don't be daft, I'm not Voice and I'm far from flattered by the comparison.

    Now tell me he's wrong and you're not Troy Tempest. You've never actually denied it. I don't care if anyone has two accounts as long as they are honest about it.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 08:33 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • ElaineB

    @ DT

    I am surprised you are asking that. Yes, part of the Kirchner populism is isolationism. Foreigners were cast as the enemies; the people causing all the problems in Argentina. To unite people you need a common foe and blaming random 'foreigners' works well. (Look at Trump's populist style). So, yes, they did drive away a lot of foreign business and used the protests as a way to reinforce their message. Argentines love a march, a target to protest at because it makes them feel they are making changes when in fact they achieve pretty much nothing. The K's built an army of civilian thugs.

    You may find it hard to believe the whole country is work shy but it is a cultural attitude and one we have discussed extensively here. It took me a while to understand it but the majority of Argentines live in the 'now'. I have described them as a nation of self-centred, reckless, feckless teenagers with no concern for the future or contributing to society. But it is also understandable. If you live in a country where the middle class lose everything every ten years what is the incentive to do anything but the minimum and just enjoy the moment.

    You should go there. I loved every minute and met amazing people. You accept quickly that they see life very differently. Rules are to be broken. Paying for anything should be avoided. Nicking a quid off anyone makes a good day. Life is for fun not boring work. If you accept they see life differently and not judge by your societal rules you will soon fit in. It is not my job to convince you of anything so go and get some first-hand experience. Schedule a couple of months to start with and you will begin to get into the mind-set of the average Argentine. Though, move away from the capital and it changes.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 09:33 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • The Voice

    @DT, look up Sepoys in the context of Argentina. Enrique and Axel Arg are experts on Sepoys who get blamed for all ills. The problem is, particularly in BA and environs, where a massive proportion of them live, a huge class divide of haves and have nots. Outside this area it's somewhat better but there are still dens of iniquity, North Mendoza and Ushuaia are stand outs for me.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 09:46 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Voice

    “Don't be daft, I'm not Voice and I'm far from flattered by the comparison. ”

    ...what do you mean not flattered...?
    Casting insults to gain approval much...?

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    Protests with people who don't even know why they are there sound like a good way to get rid of the foreign businesses. But if the point was to give the people an enemy, don't they kind of need to know what they are protesting about? Surely the point then is to whip people up enough that they will protest on their own?

    And I suppose I actually could go there now, since I just found out my job is being outsourced to another country. I'd have a hard time getting a job in Argentina though, since I don't speak Spanish.

    @The Voice
    I googled 'Sepoys Argentina' and found a page with a very familiar photo, Mr A_Cockney:

    The linked article was funny though.

    To be honest there are not too many posters on here that I'd be flattered by a comparison to, for various reasons, but I suppose that was rude, so sorry.

    I think it should be perfectly obvious to anyone that we are not the same person though.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 12:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree...
    Sorry about your job...
    Take it from an old man... Post Traumatic Growth does happen...
    Or as a German once said...:“That which does not kill us..., makes us stronger.”

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 01:31 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Voice

    No problem...
    ...and so it begins, if you post reasonable well thought out responses that goes against the “Band of Brothers/Sisters” this is swiftly followed by attempts to discredit, then accusations of Puppet or attacks on where you live or your nationality...
    Mainly by folk with multiple accounts...
    Troy Tempest...2
    The Voice...3

    Others with multiple accounts...
    Pugol H...2

    Eventually you will have the title Think/Voice/DT...

    Was the outsourcing caused by Brexit...?

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 01:51 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • The Voice

    Think/Voice displaying his persecution complex... “It's them nasty Sepoys again!” Shit stirrer extraordinaire. Repeat after me “divide and conquer, divide and conquer, divide and conquer...” Exact modus operandi of Think turnip. Mentions Brexit cos he knows you are a remainer. It's just sooo obvious, needs allies, cos he ain't got none.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Thanks, but I'm not too upset really. I was looking for another job anyway, and not putting in as much effort as I should have been. Now I have to decide whether I should blow my redundancy money on travelling or be prudent and use it to live on while I'm looking for work. And I'd like to try living abroad, but I'd miss my family and friends, so I don't know.

    It wasn't caused by Brexit as far as I know, just the usual reason that salaries are lower in some countries.

    @The Voice
    If you're looking for people trying to divide us, you should be worrying about the papers that accuse remain supporters of plotting against Brexit, and the chorus of Englishmen whinging about the Barnett formula and saying 'good riddance if Scotland leaves'. It's entirely in our hands, no one can divide us unless we let them.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • ElaineB

    @ DT

    You are trying to apply logic to Argentine behaviour. Don't bother packing it and taking it with you if you end up there because it will be wasted.

    As for working in Argentina, the wages are incredibly low. Regarding you dilemma about travel or job hunting, I don't know your age or circumstances (and don't expect you to tell me) so can't offer a definitive answer. Travel could lead to work or not. If you have no dependents you may see it as a once in a lifetime chance to hit the road and see where it takes you. If you have responsibilities then job hunting should probably be your priority.

    You could try the workaway route and work your way around SoAm without using up your savings.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • golfcronie

    DT You say you have never been to Argentina, I have and lived there for two and a half years, also had an Argentinian wife, so I do know what I am talking about. I have never come across so many workshy people in my life and I am well travelled through work.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Think

    Nice to hear..., Mr. DemonTree...

    Whatever you do with your redundancy monies... DO NOT invest them in the Engrish Pirate Mississippi Oil Bubble Shares in the South Atlantic...!
    Down today nearly 4%...:

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 03:47 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • golfcronie

    So is oil Tink, incidently when are you going to give us all a laugh and tell us what Argentina can bring to the negociating table?

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • The Voice

    Yes, c'mon Tinkle tell us what advantage the Falklands Islanders will enjoy being under the yoke of Argieland? Why so shy, you usually have some slimy quip to make on every subject?
    Horsemeat perhaps?

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 04:51 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Pugol-H

    “post reasonable well thought out responses”

    Most of the time you post complete Bollox.

    Like 10 year old Public expenditure figures, claimed as current.

    And you wonder why you get the piss taken?????

    Man Up.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 04:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Pogul-X

    Hardly a secret, undercover, 2nd identity is it, Voicey??????

    Not like people aren’t going to know it’s me, is it???????

    Not least for the same wit and repartee.!!!!!!!!!

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Sorry for the bad link above...

    Engrish Pirate Mississippi Oil Bubble Shares in the South Atlantic down today -4.03%

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 06:00 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    I don't have any dependants but I'm old enough that I could have I suppose. Well past the age people usually go travelling anyway. I have no idea how future employers would view it.

    The workaway thing sounds like what I had in mind though, just paying my travel expenses, not making big money.

    If I was going to invest it would be in renewables, not oil. Why didn't you sell your shares long ago if you were so sure they were worthless?

    @The Voice
    No reply for me? You are quick enough to accuse those you dislike of divide and conquer, but you don't want to think about how you, and Pugol “McSubsidyMonkey” might be contributing to it?

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 06:08 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • The Voice

    @DT Divide us? Wee Jimmy, Fish face? What do those two clowns want? Luckily most Scots aren't stupid.
    EU? The whole purpose of which is an anti free trade cartel shutting out most of the world to the benefit of the Germans mainly. Isn't that divisive? The Club Med countries are all in penury. It's falling apart hopefully.

    It all depends if you are myopic or capable of recognising when you are being suckered.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 06:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest


    If that's who you really are...

    *see what I am saying?*

    Think has been caught creating and then having staged conversations with faux personas.

    One of those was an elaborate “Scottish” gentleman with an anti-British, anti-English message.

    That was retired and replaced with another “Scotsman” with the same message, “Voice”

    Voice, in turn, speculates on who is a puppet and insists on who is “qualified” to comment.

    It is all speculation and a tool to extract personal info which he then uses to discredit and ridicule the poster.

    Giving away any personal info on here carries a risk.

    Telling Thinkvoice I live in Canada was a mistake, as you have seen.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 06:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • ElaineB


    I don't mind people knowing I live in England and my work takes me abroad for a minimum of six months each year. But you are right that giving too much personal information here is entirely unnecessary. There are certain types that are desperate for information to use against people and others that are so creepy you are best to let them know as little as possible. The whole false personas is pathetically infantile and says a lot about the inadequacy of the person doing it. Why not just own your own words and opinions under one name?

    @ DT

    I think it depends on the employer and field you work in. Some like to see travel and life experience. If you spent your whole time at things like the Full Moon Party, I can't see that as a bonus but if you incorporate some volunteering it would definitely land in the plus column. The only time employers get spooked is if they think you are likely to bugger off without much notice as travel can be addictive.

    Workaway or HelpX cover a lot of South America. They are all ages and from all backgrounds, not just Gap Year students. I have bumped into a few on my travels. One chap I met at an hotel where I was staying was retired and found it a convenient way to travel and really immerse in the culture. That said, I have never used it as a means of travel. Tis your choice but who knows when you might get the opportunity for a long break from work again.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree...
    Where did you get the idea that I'm a “Shareholder”on anything...?
    Let alone an Engrish Pirate Mississippi Oil Bubble Shares Shareholder...?!?

    Anyhow... Renewables are goooooood...
    A bit irritated at Mr. Musk................, though...
    His new Solar Roof/Powerwall products have reawaken the consumist in me...:-(
    Making them photovoltaic panels and battery bank on me Patagonian shed to look antediluvian...

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • The Voice

    Patagonian shed in Brook Street! Next you will be telling us that you like a bit of Guanaco!

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 07:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @The Voice
    I'm not up on lame tabloid nicknames, but assuming you are talking about the SNP, yes they want to divide us. And the English people who slag off the Scots are helping them out gratis. A hundred times more effective than anything Voice could do.

    As for the EU, it was designed to fix the economic imbalance between France and Germany originally, which is probably why the UK never fit in well, and also to prevent more wars by fostering cooperation and interdependence.

    But that's not what we were talking about. You accused Voice of trying to stir up divisions between Leave and Remain voters, but it's not him who's doing that. It's the papers you read who accuse Remain supporters of plotting to keep us in the EU, and call our judges traitors for doing their jobs. It's all those talking about 'the will of the people', who conveniently forget nearly half the voters did not agree. People can disagree without tearing the country apart, but when you start calling people traitors or enemies of the people, that's no longer possible.

    “If that's who you really are...”

    That is who I really am, but who are you? I wasn't inclined to believe Voice, but you don't even deny being Kanye, and vice-versa.

    And you are speculating on who is a puppet yourself, so you can't complain too much when Voice does it too. In the end we are all anonymous posters; any one could be lying about any thing, whether they are a sockpuppet or not. All we can do is reply based on what they say.

    Heh, you don't think Kanye is TT then?

    It's a good point, getting the time is the biggest problem with travelling. I will have to look into it.

    I'm sure you mentioned ages ago that you had a few shares in one of the oil companies in the Falklands, and that they weren't worth much any more?

    I'd like to get some solar panels. Our roof faces the wrong way but we could probably mount some on top of the garage. Not sure the expense is justified though.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 07:22 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Voice

    Mr. Think...


    Mar 09th, 2017 - 07:25 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree & Mr. Voice...

    Good thing to have such good “check and balances” followers...

    As you both coan read from the link above... those £50 shares..., generously gifted to me by that cultivated Scottish officer & gentleman... Mr. DOVEOVERDOER..., surely with the good intention of luring me into the abyssal sin-ical depths of capitalism..., NEVER really were physically under my posession to properly dispose of...

    Anyhow... It's the though that counts..., as they say...;-)

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • ElaineB

    @ DT

    No idea. Is it important?

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    How convenient. Apparently my 'Mom' does work here today. :)

    Explains where I got the idea anyway, Think said so himself!

    Depends if you think he might be insulted by what you said, I suppose.

    Anyway, I kind of doubt my field is one where they are looking for life experience, but I don't know if it would count against me. Probably like you said volunteering would look more positive.

    Working sounds like a better way to meet people anyway. If you just visit tourist spots the only people you meet are other tourists, which isn't really the point.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Jack Bauer

    Re your reply to EB...
    “Protests with people who don't even know why they are there sound like a good way to get rid of the foreign businesses. But if the point was to give the people an enemy, .....”“”don't they kind of need to know what they are protesting about ?“”“”

    Not really . This topic caught my attention because here in Brazil that is commonplace.....reason being that the PT and other commie parties, have an army of ignorant innocents at their disposal, be it to protest against any project or policy of the current government, or to defend the 9-fingered toad from the “Lavajato” investigation. Besides the members of illegitimate social movements (MST, MSTS and others), who didn't bother working because they were generously funded by the PT govts, just be at Lula's beck and call when needed, these ignorant, unsuspecting idiots are called upon to march down the main avenues, blocking traffic and disrupting the lives of those who do work, wearing red T-shirts, waving large red flags (with the hammer and sickle on them) and shouting slogans against whatever the issue may be, in exchange for 10 quid and a baloney sandwich....and they have no idea why they are really there....and they couldn't care less...all that matters is the bribe and a sandwich. Many times they are bussed in from distant towns that have nothing to do with the protest, just to make numbers, and to compensate for those who have given up on the PT / Lula.
    If I were you I'd listen to EB's suggestion and take the opportunity, while unemployed and without dependants, to travel and see the world....and learn that the 3rd world is a different cup of tea to what you are used to. Broaden your horizons while you can, it'll pay off in the end.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 08:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    The EU was originally the European Iron and Steel Community. It's principal purpose was to prevent a return to war. It morphed into a bureaucratic protectionist monster far from its original purpose. We were told it was a Common Market which we then voted to confirm. It was a lie and in the 90s Major acceded us to the monster superstate. Now we are leaving which the majority of us voted for.

    I was commenting on Voice/Think fomenting discord between posters here. They are expert at it but some are just too naive to realise...

    As for Think's investing skills, horsemeat is his field of expertise. Argentina is the world leader!

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ElaineB

    @ DT

    What do you think I said that was insulting? I was just responding to a post. You know, all this nonsense multiple identities is infantile. We probably should ignore it.

    You are right it is the best way to get to work alongside locals and see life from their point of view. Of course, there may be other volunteers to share the experience with but that is not so bad. Have a look at the websites and see what kinds of options are available. You are not supposed to take the work of the locals, just help out in return for your keep and to immerse in the culture.


    Yes, it is hard to explain the reality of protesting in SoAm. I concluded it is a hobby to a lot of people in Argentina because they include music and often an asado at the end. :) It doesn't really achieve much more than creating a nuisance but I guess it gives some a sense of purpose. I know of people that are sent out to protest and have not a clue why they are there or what they are protesting about - they just know it is the only way they will keep their jobs.

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 09:46 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    If that is what you have seen in Brazil, it explains why you think it's likely in the US as well. I've been on a few protests in the UK but never seen or heard of people being paid to protest.

    What were the protests about anyway? Presumably they weren't protesting against the government if the government organised them? It still seems odd to me that the people in power would want to see protests, the government should have other ways of getting what they want.

    I have travelled to the 3rd world before, by the way, but only as a tourist. I've never lived there, and I suppose the experience is different.

    @The Voice
    “I was commenting on Voice/Think fomenting discord between posters here. They are expert at it but some are just too naive to realise...”

    Yes, and you are continuing to dodge my point that they can only foment discord if we cooperate with them. Your dig about being naive is a nice example as you are now doing their job for them, and much more effectively.

    Similarly the SNP are surely happy to see English insulting Scots. Nothing they could say would be as effective at making people vote out.

    Apparently in Argentina some people like to blame their problems on 'sepoys', but I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions. If you don't want discord, don't engage in it.

    As for the EU, you evidently do know something about it, so don't insult my intelligence with 'anti-free-trade cartels'. I'd have a lot more confidence in the UK's future - and respect for the Brexiters - if you could talk about the pros and cons honestly, without resorting to simplistic exaggerations.

    Oh, and a majority of the people did not vote to leave. 37.5% voted to leave, 34.7% voted to remain, and 27.8% didn't vote at all.

    “The whole false personas is pathetically infantile and says a lot about the inadequacy of the person doing it. Why not just own your own words and opinions under one name?”

    Is what I meant. But I will be happy to ignore it, if other people will too

    Mar 09th, 2017 - 10:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    Yay...I've been referred to as an expert...
    Always knew I'd amount to something...
    Gonna get me some glasses...or better still a monocle...

    Mar 10th, 2017 - 12:06 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Enrique Massot


    “...if you spent any time in Argentina you would understand very quickly that they spend more energy avoiding work than actually working. It is the culture.”

    Your incredible assessment (who gets the job done in Argentina anyway?) is also the mantra of wealthy or ignorant people in Argentina to justify any offensive on the Argentines' purchase power. “They just don't like to work.”

    That's also the Macri government's position on the teachers' strike, and that's what MP commentators keep parroting here, without any regard for what is happening to the current assault on the teachers' wages integrity.

    Yes. Much better to keep focusing on the wealth and the prosecution of Cristina while forgetting to mention the several legal actions recently started on Macri, his government officials or members of his family.

    Tell you what. When all is said and done, Macri will go down in history as the biggest crook this country has ever known. And you and the likes of yours will still be talking about CFK.

    Mar 10th, 2017 - 05:39 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Kanye


    “Yes. Much better to keep focusing on the wealth and the prosecution of Cristina while forgetting to mention the several legal actions recently started on Macri, his government officials or members of his family”

    And you would rather turn a blind eye to the corruption and fraud and theft by CFK.

    The neglect and under funding of schools teachers hospitals and doctors and other social services all started under the Kirchners.

    You're an ideologue and a dinosaur.

    Mar 10th, 2017 - 05:57 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • The Voice

    @DT the EU, the majority of voters who voted voted to leave, QED! Biggest turn out for any vote for some time. I have watched the EU since long before we joined it so yes, I do know something about it. Probably lots more than those who have never known anything else. Many things that worked and we're good long ago are being reintroduced. Very satisfying to see them happening alongside newer reforms.

    Mar 10th, 2017 - 09:29 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • ElaineB

    @ EM

    Cast aside your fantasy version of Argentina and try experiencing the reality. The Argentine work ethic is well known by anyone who spends any time there (and the surrounding countries). I wouldn't call is lazy but a different attitude to work. It is a cultural bent and most probably has it's roots in the Italian immigrants from way back. They work (if they have to) to live not live to work. The truth is they can get by on very little so why put int he extra effort? To acquire savings and a nice home or business just to lose it all again in the next crash? The majority of Argentines live in the now.

    When throwing out random insults you might like to remember that CFK is one of the wealthy you love to hate.

    You can weep and throw out distractions but you can't stop us focusing on the fact that CFK, former President, is being held to account for her crimes against the very people you claim to champion.

    Mar 10th, 2017 - 10:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    What are these things that worked that are being reintroduced? I'd be interested to know.

    Mar 10th, 2017 - 11:07 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • golfcronie

    I agree EB and the money saved is usually in U$S and hidden under the mattress, although my Father in Law had a safe built under the floor.

    Mar 10th, 2017 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    You've reminded me of something I was told about Ireland: that because most of the people were tenant farmers, if they worked hard and improved their land to make it more productive, the landlord would raise their rent and they would be no better off. So instead they just did enough to survive and spent their time and effort on things like music, which of course Ireland is now famous for.

    We are used to saying that communism doesn't work because there is no motivation for people to work hard, but we forget that other systems can cause this same effect.

    @The Voice
    No reply again? I really would like to know of any good things that might come out of Brexit, because right now I am not seeing a lot of them.

    Mar 10th, 2017 - 05:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    I don’t think that there is all that much similarity in what is motivating the dwindling numbers in Brazil who go to the streets to defend Lula, or to protest against the current government, and the protests in the US; in Brazil, besides the political agitators (PT) and small groups organizing the protests (leftist unions), few are really capable of understanding the issue, or what they are protesting against. They are simply there, to serve a purpose which is not necessarily theirs. The protests I have participated in were to defend, basically, Dilma’s impeachment, the extermination of corruption and to defend the actions by the Federal Police and the Judiciary, which are leaving most in Congress with the squits.
    While in the US, although the majority of people protesting (against Trump) are probably more aware of the issues at hand and how they are affected by them, there are quite a few vandals who simply take advantage of the protests to externalize their cooped up frustrations, and to loot….
    I’ve spent quite a bit of time in the US, travelled to dozens of States, working, as well as spending weeks at a time with friends, and am pretty familiar with the differences in the American and Brazilian mentalities.

    The protests in Brazil are NOT organized by ‘this’ government, but 'were' by the PT , when in power. The government used its tentacles to stir up the people, with planted lies and to promote protests against the ‘then’ opposition (by paying those who volunteered), and to defend themselves, in order to try to offset the gigantic, spontaneous protests of those against the PT government and its economic policies, which drove Brazil into the ground.
    As a tourist you seldom get the chance to see the side of the locals, far less feel in your skin what they go through. That’s why going and staying, and returning, is recommended if getting to know a place is important to you.

    Mar 10th, 2017 - 05:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ElaineB

    @ golfcronie

    I heard many an Argentine say they kept money under the floorboards. So much so that it became the first place the armed robbers looked. One account was from an Argentine in New York - he worked there but went home to his family often - and he was telling me a first hand account of the results of CFK's and The Boy Kicillof's monetary policies. People didn't trust the banks or the government so they kept their money under the floorboards and the number of violent burglaries went through the roof. He had some harrowing tales of people robbed in his parent's neighbourhood.

    Mar 10th, 2017 - 06:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    @DT We are not out yet, you will have to wait and see...

    Mar 12th, 2017 - 03:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @The Voice
    Can't actually think of any, huh?

    When I said the government organised protests, I meant back when the PT were still in power. But if they were counter-protests then that makes sense, plus there were people protesting both for and against Rousseff's impeachment. (Strangely, both of these seem reasonable to me.)

    It's pretty unfortunate that there are so many people in the US who use protests as an excuse for violence. Have they all been peaceful in Brazil?

    Mar 13th, 2017 - 08:22 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Jack Bauer

    Right, apologise for any misunderstanding, but yes, the PT (and their govt) used to stage protests against those who challenged them.....and always during the week (when those who were employed would simply not turn up for work, as well as those 'induced' to protest for a bit of cash and a sandwich, would be available / willing to make an appearance). In 2015, every time those against Dilma and the PT called a protest (always on Sunday, a non-working day, attended by hundreds of thousands ), the PT would call a counter-protest the following week, with a very small turnout , attended by a few, 'remunerated' ignoramuses, usually lead by PT politicians, and their pseudo-social movement leaders and left-wing unions.... Despite the protests against Dilma attracting hundreds of thousands to the streets, the only protests that ended up with violence and confrontations with the police, were those called by the PT...

    Mar 13th, 2017 - 09:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +1

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