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Primaries in Argentina show Macri's coalition is en route to become the main political force

Monday, August 14th 2017 - 07:43 UTC
Full article 53 comments

Argentina's ruling coalition headed by president Mauricio Macri managed better than expected overall results in Sunday's national mandatory and simultaneous primaries to choose candidates for the midterm elections of 22 October. Read full article

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  • golfcronie

    “ and rampant corruption of ex president Cristina Fernandez administrations ” strong words from a news agency, I wonder if Cristina will sue Mercopress for slander.Time will tell.

    Aug 14th, 2017 - 10:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    Reekie will be sooooo shocked and disappointed.

    But then, remote reekie hasn't a clue what goes on in this country.

    Aug 14th, 2017 - 01:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Enrique Massot

    It was a shameful night in which the government delayed publishing the results in areas that favoured the opposition until the early hours of Monday to allow Macri to sing victory in TV prime time and get splashing headlines in major newspapers.

    The government also decided to stop counting when five per cent of votes, mostly in areas of Kirchnerist majorities, remaining unpublished.

    In the end, the published results show a parity that can go either way when the final count is announced in about 10 days.

    The maneuvers of the government allowed it to announce a win in the Santa Fe province as reported above, when results announced Monday ended up in a clear victory of the opposition.

    This sort of petty tactics had not been seen since Argentina's return to democracy in 1983. In spite of it, fact is, the government lost 14 provinces and its policies fell short of endorsement, with the exception of Buenos Aires city where incredibly Elisa Carrio had a strong win.

    Oh, and the government 's petty manipulation of the results made Marti boast a bit too early, but again, this was part of the effect Macri sought.

    And Chroni is right; again, this MP reporting reads more like a Macrist opinion column. Pretty low journalism standards.

    Aug 14th, 2017 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • LEPRecon

    golfcronie

    “I wonder if Cristina will sue Mercopress for slander”

    Slander is spoken, she would have to sue for libel (the written word), however since what they've written is true I doubt she'd win. ;)

    Aug 14th, 2017 - 04:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Zaphod Beeblebrox

    Reekie,

    You from a previous thread: “Really! A tie! Says who?”

    You now have your answer: The electorate, apparently. :-)

    Even if you are correct in your claims, they would be (as you say) petty tactics that will have no effect on the final result. They would not be electoral fraud such as providing fake ballot papers, intimidation or interference on the scale that CFK's cronies unsuccessfully tried in the last election.

    Aug 14th, 2017 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Cheshire_Cat

    Nationwide, Kirchner and her allies only obtained 20% of the vote. They only won in three low-populated Patagonian provinces, while they lost on their own oil-rich home province of Santa Cruz, on San Luis, and in most of the country. On Buenos Aires province, where most of her supporters are, she only managed a narrow second place against Macri's candidate, Esteban Bullrich, an obscure economist unknown by most people that was running for election for the first time in his life (previously he had been education minister in the City of Buenos Aires).

    The champion of this election has been Buenos Aires province governor Maria Eugenia Vidal, of Macri's party, which has been fighting the mafias in provincial police and cleansing the largest and most populous province of its machine politics.

    If these primary election results hold until the October midterms, it is safe to say Kirchner is finished. 80% of the country despises her, including most of her former Peronist party. Today is a good day for ordinary, decent, hard-working Argentines... leaving this clown behind (hopefully behind bars) and once again looking to the future. Limited government, austerity, free trade, peaceful relations with the world, strong institutions and rule of law, liberty, are the values that once made Argentina of the three wealthiest countries in the world. Hopefully, if we manage to turn the page, the “green shots” will become permanent and these values will once again cement themselves in our society.

    Aug 14th, 2017 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +6
  • Zaphod Beeblebrox

    I hope that you are correct C_Cat. At the moment it seems likely that CFK has killed Peronism. This could well be the best thing she does for Argentina, albeit through incompetence and just being way too greedy.

    Reekie, who scoffed at an earlier suggestion of a tie is now desperate that it is indeed a tie rather than the the massive defeat it looks like. He is backpedaling from his predicted resurgence of Kirchnerism to some sort of parity in the face of what looks like the irrelevance I predicted previously (even if she wins). I have a vision of him stumbling backwards, arms windmilling, as he tries to maintain some sort of balance. Some Peronist candidates have been getting only 3% or less of the vote! Anyone who thinks it is possible to return from 20%, never mind 3%, to parity when 90% of the votes have been counted has to have a serious reality problem. But we've been saying that for a long time about Reekie.

    C_Cat, If the results hold then the expected flood of investment will be very good news for decent Argentines too.

    Aug 15th, 2017 - 12:41 am - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Stoker

    Daniel Filmus = 13%
    http://www.thebubble.com/elisa-carrio-buenos-aires-primaries/
    ;-D

    Aug 15th, 2017 - 05:57 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • ElaineB

    @ Cheshire Cat. CFK may be despised by 80% of Argentines but at least she is adored by one Argentine living in Canada. (Joke)

    Aug 15th, 2017 - 10:35 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Marti Llazo

    Peronismo might have been wrinkled a bit in the polls and elections but unfortunately it's still very much a part of the culture, as another expression of cancerous viveza criolla. And it will take decades to significantly cleanse that sort of malignant blight. It's not something you can vote away or separate from underclothing through the use of harsh laundry detergents.

    Aug 15th, 2017 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Enrique Massot

    Overall, the Macri front Cambiemos got good results in Monday's primary election by obtaining majorities in half of the provinces and obtaining an exceptional majority in the capital city, Buenos Aires.
    Additionally, the current opposition is divided between non-Kirchnerist Peronists and Kirchnerists.
    How this all reads? No doubt, Argentine electors were willing to give the Macri administration the tools to continue with the changes he proposed in his 2015 election campaign.
    Do I have confidence this will result in tangible improvements for the majorities? Absolutely not.
    It's not a good sign when an elected government engages in petty maneuvers such as we witnessed Monday night.
    However, no matter what I or others believe, the president will have the tools to continue transforming the Argentine economy in his own way for the next two years.
    Then he'll again face the electors.
    And for me and others from my generation, to keep the democratic mechanisms alive and well is already a big achievement.

    Aug 15th, 2017 - 03:47 pm - Link - Report abuse -6
  • Marti Llazo

    When the leaders of the opposition don't even vote, we can hardly consider them a paragon of “democratic mechanisms.” When the leaders of the opposition reflect a long history of blatant corruption, misuse of public monies, contempt for freedom of expression, unbridled theft of the assets of investors, and the preference for failed ideologies over objective development of the nation, we can hardly hold them up as the ideals of “democratic mechanisms.” When the opposition was characterised in world media as “ How a wealthy country declines into a rogue state” the we have serious doubts about its notions of “democratic mechanisms.” When the leaders of the opposition lied to the nation's residents - and the world - - through such cunning artifice as the Kirchnerist INDEC, their claim to “democratic mechanisms” is just a tiny bit dubious.

    Aug 15th, 2017 - 04:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +5
  • Zaphod Beeblebrox

    “It's not a good sign when an elected government engages in petty maneuvers...” but in ReekieWorld large scale criminal activity is OK.

    Marti is spot on with his response to your “democratic mechanisms”. The thing that makes a democracy really powerful is having an electorate who realises that they have power to change things via the ballot box and asks critical questions of their public servants to be. If that is what the Argentine electorate has done here then the democratic mechanism is indeed alive and well, even if it didn't Reekie the result that he wanted.

    Aug 15th, 2017 - 06:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • The Voice

    And adored by one wrinkled dinosaur in Chubut who is on this occasion stangely silent...?

    Aug 15th, 2017 - 07:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Tarquin Fin

    Enrique,

    This has happened before. October 2015. They just returned the joke to Cristina.

    Aug 15th, 2017 - 10:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Enrique Massot

    @ML

    “...blatant corruption, misuse of public monies...” What a load of B.S. Not a single conviction, no evidence--nada. Conversely, the fact that president Macri has a long history with the justice system, still faces a number of accusations over conflict of interest and failing to the duties of public office being imputed in some--What's that? Nothing!

    Macri even took office while under process--but was acquitted the next day.

    Marti's above diatribe clearly shows all that is wrong with politics in Argentina and Latin America in general.

    In Marti's selective vision--as for many in Argentina--democracy is okay when things go their way.

    If not, they become spreaders of unproven accusations, rumours...they will even seek support from the foreign press--as long as it is useful to their cause.

    Hey, they'll easily turn around and deny for some the rights they claim for their idols.

    “When the leaders of the opposition don't even vote, we can hardly consider them a paragon of 'democratic mechanisms,'” our industrious commentator noted. How right, Marti! If Cristina does not fly to Santa Cruz to vote at her place of residence, then democracy is not for her--implication: whatever tricks the current government uses are fair play as far as it is against Cristina.

    ”Fraude patriótico” back in business.

    Aug 16th, 2017 - 12:03 am - Link - Report abuse -4
  • imoyaro

    Awww, poor Kamerad/Komrade Rique, the individual who likes watching people being beaten is crying! (“ Good one. Beat the crap out of Jack.” ~ Kamerad/Komrade Rique.) Pauvre petit!

    I really find this article interesting...

    http://www.infobae.com/politica/2017/08/14/julio-barbaro-mi-odio-a-cristina-puede-ser-mas-fuerte-que-mi-amor-a-massa/

    Apparently, Peronist or not, people have really had enough.

    Aug 16th, 2017 - 01:48 am - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Enrique Massot

    @imoyaro

    Now that I see what you read I understand better the level of your comments.

    You know? There is a whole world beyond your little, sad life. You only need to aim a bit higher. Come on, I know you can do it!

    Aug 16th, 2017 - 03:34 am - Link - Report abuse -8
  • ElaineB

    I don't think EM likes being shown up as completely wrong.

    Aug 16th, 2017 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    Who does? But I daresay he likes watching people crow about it even less.

    Aug 16th, 2017 - 01:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • imoyaro

    Here's another eye opener that came out of this election. Peronist oligarchs who have controlled San Luis province for the last 30 years decided to join up with CFK's party in hopes of extending their voter base, only to lose by almost 20 %.to the Cambiemos candidate. It's like she's the KIss of Death...

    http://www.thebubble.com/san-luis-argentina-primaries/

    Aug 16th, 2017 - 04:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Enrique Massot

    Interesting news on the Aug. 13 primary election in Argentina.
    Macrist candidate Esteban Bullrich has grudgingly acknowledged he may lose to Cristina Fernandez, although “for a small margin.”
    Meanwhile, newspapers and commentators continue to use information currently available showing a win of Macrism in Buenos Aires province, with some concluding Kirchnerism is dead in Argentina.
    Indeed, the province is by far the most important jurisdiction in the country, gathering alone 37 per cent of Argentine electors or about 12 million.
    By comparison, Buenos Aires city has 7.95 per cent of the national register.
    The provinces of Buenos Aires and Santa Fe--where Kirchnerism won--concentrate 45 per cent of the total electors in Argentina.
    That is why newspapers and commentators writing obits about Kirchnerism are getting ahead of themselves.
    There is still hope for Argentina.

    Aug 16th, 2017 - 06:13 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Zaphod Beeblebrox

    So, if CFK does win by 0.01% will that really count as your “Because Cristina's election will be a slap in the face of Mauricio Macri and a popular thumbs-down on his team of CEOs, which he had described as “the best team of the last 50 years.””?

    Or not?

    There is indeed still hope for Argentina, but not with the straws that you are desperately clutching at.

    Aug 16th, 2017 - 06:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • DemonTree

    Since this isn't the real election, I don't see that it matters either way whether CFK is slightly ahead of Bullrich or vice versa. It could easily go the other way in October.

    @EM
    I'm sure you're not happy they lost to Cambiemos, but do you think it's a good thing in general that the family who've held San Luis province for so long have lost an election?

    Aug 16th, 2017 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Tarquin Fin

    There is still hope for Argentina. Indeed. That depends entirely on the definitive mid-term elections coming in October.

    Just down to facts, Kirchnerism is down to fighting small local battles in districts where they still get some support. Incidentally, those districts are the ones with the highest violent crime rates and where most narco activity is known to occur (i.e: Greater BA and Greater Rosario).

    Cristina might come a few hundred of votes ahead of Bullrich when the final count comes out. Does that make any difference at this point?

    Aug 16th, 2017 - 10:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • imoyaro

    @TF Thanks for the insight

    Kamerad/Komrade Rique's assertion that the government held up the count is, as usual, not true. The government did not stop the counting. But the tallies of over 1500+ ballot boxes could not be recorded (by the Judiciary,) because of the handling of the boxes, ie the tallies being sealed in the box incorrectly instead being kept separate and accessible, or, more to the point, the tallies having more votes cast than than legal voters listed for the neighborhood.( I have read of a discrepancy of 619 votes!) All of these boxes now have to be gone through ,counted manually, and the ballots examined for legitimacy. Now far be it from me to say that Kamerad/Komrade Rique is telling the truth, but let's take him at his word for the sake of argument and agree that the withheld boxes all come from the areas that were under Kirchner's political control,(ones with high levels of violent and narco crime.) What are we to make of this? That the Kirchner machine has tried to pad the numbers with electoral fraud? That she, and Kamerad/Komrade Rique, are anxious that the purported numbers be accepted without scrutiny? I think it's pretty obvious...

    http://www.thebubble.com/who-really-won-last-nights-primaries-fact-we-have-no-idea/

    Aug 17th, 2017 - 09:30 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Enrique Massot

    @IM

    Oh. I see where valiant commentator IMOYARO is going:

    ”...the withheld boxes all come from the areas that were under Kirchner's political control,(ones with high levels of violent and narco crime.)“

    IY is of course parroting an earlier version proposed by TF, another impartial observer posting above:

    ”Kirchnerism is down to fighting small local battles in districts...with the highest violent crime rates and where most narco activity is known to occur (i.e: Greater BA and Greater Rosario).

    We are all sooo relieved. If Cristina Fernandez wins the election in the most populated district in the country, it will be just because of the unwashed living in those dangerous neighbourhoods and villas miseria.

    We are soooo relieved.

    Aug 17th, 2017 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • imoyaro

    Why lie, Kamerad/Komrade? YOU were the one claiming that the votes were being withheld to cut into her “lead.” That would only be true if the areas friendly to her were targeted. So now you are saying they weren't? :)

    Aug 17th, 2017 - 03:16 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    ”Incidentally, those districts are the ones with the highest violent crime rates and where most narco activity is known to occur (i.e: Greater BA and Greater Rosario).”

    In other words Kirchner's biggest support is in bad areas where no one would choose to live, and where there are a lot of urban poor? Is that supposed to be a surprise?

    @EM
    What you accusing the government of exactly? Surely they are not in charge of counting the votes or publishing the results? Or do you mean the press published the results prematurely before all the votes had been counted?

    Aug 17th, 2017 - 04:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    @DT

    Good question. Argentina is one of few countries where the elections are under the control of the executive branch of the government instead of the judicial branch.

    As such, the Ministry of Interior, through the Direccion Nacional Electoral (DINE) oversees the process.

    The final count that has just started is conducted by the Electoral Justice, under the Judicial branch.

    The preliminary processing of information from polling stations on election night is done by Correo Argentino, which subcontracted much of the work to the Spanish company INDRA.

    Correo Argentino washed its hands on the interruption of result processing when a large amount of polling stations remained unprocessed, saying the order came from the Ministry.

    The results from those polling stations will be then processed with the rest of information that was unprocessed on election night because of errors.

    Ricardo Viaggio, president of INDRA Argentina, is a former executive of the Group SOCMA, part of the Macri Group.

    You can see that at the top of the chain of command sits the executive.

    The maneuver of which the government is accused is to have processed early in the night information from polling stations from areas less favourable to CFK, and in the end, stop processing information from areas more favourable to CFK. So far, this would not create a fraud figure--just manipulation of information for image and public impact purposes.

    But there is more. Vote counts sent by polling stations to the processing centre are now posted online--and it appears that citizens who voted for CFK or other opposition parties checked the vote count in the polling station where they had voted, only to find “zero” votes for the party they knew they had cast a ballot. As TV channel C5N aired the story and asked other citizens to inform of similar occurrences, they became inundated with 11,000 complaints. They put together a team to process this flood of information. Stay tuned on this new development.

    Aug 17th, 2017 - 09:25 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • imoyaro

    C5N? The Narcokleptocratic TV mouthpiece? I don't buy anything out of C5N or Pagina12, any more than I do your drivel without references. More agitprop, eh, Kamerad/Komrade?

    Aug 18th, 2017 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Tarquin Fin

    @DT

    I´m not judging the poor because they cannot move somewhere else to live. I'm judging those who we call “punteros”, (i.e.: a person who grants favors in exchange of your pledge)

    This article pretty much completes the picture:

    http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2054229-elecciones-2017-amplio-triunfo-de-cristina-kirchner-en-las-carceles-bonaerenses

    Cristina wins by landslide in Buenos Aires province´s jails.

    Aug 18th, 2017 - 12:56 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • imoyaro

    “Cristina wins by landslide in Buenos Aires province´s jails.”

    Indeed, when she was in charge you could get a job outside the prison working as muscle at FpV functions if you were “militant” enough (ie a violent offender,) through “Vatayon Militante.” However, that practice came to an end after a motochorro member spectacularly failed to rob a foreign tourist and the attempt went viral on YouTube. Instead of being jailed immediately, he went on to make an appearance on a TV talk show, which eventually led to his incarceration, and public scrutiny of the “Vatayon.” Eventually they pulled the plug, but the remnants now free changed the name to Pinguinos. Look them up on the web Kamerad/Komrade Rique, maybe you'd like to send them a donation in solidarity?

    https://image.slidesharecdn.com/vatayonmilitante-120816191013-phpapp02/95/vatayon-militante-1-728.jpg?cb=1345144815

    Aug 18th, 2017 - 01:34 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @EM
    “Argentina is one of few countries where the elections are under the control of the executive branch of the government instead of the judicial branch.”

    That... doesn't seem like a very good idea. (Seriously, WTF? That's nearly as dumb as the USA putting the party in power in charge of redrawing district boundaries.)

    So the government really did tell them to stop counting on the night and finish it off later? Did they give a reason/excuse?

    Also, what's the point? Not only does it not change the final result, but if we get the same result in October won't both CFK and Bullrich be senators either way? Do they think if they make it look like they won, it will influence the real election? Or was it aimed at increasing confidence in the markets and in international investors?

    I read a little about it, but I'm still not sure how the votes are counted. Do people vote on paper and then the votes are counted by each polling station? It says the ballot boxes are not opened unless there is a discrepancy, but in what? And these counts posted online, are they the final version or not? Showing zero votes for a popular candidate sounds more like an error in posting the data than in counting it (supposing it IS an error).

    @TF
    I was surprised prisoners could vote, but I think it says only those not convicted (yet)?

    Punteros are people who vote a certain way because they are bribed to? Is that common in Buenos Aires province?

    But really, we know CFK has more support among the poor, and it's not surprising there is more violent crime in areas where people are poorer, for both cause and effect. Even in the bad areas, you wouldn't say the majority of people are involved in crime, would you?

    Aug 18th, 2017 - 11:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    @DT

    To understand why the Macri government would go to great lengths to make a winning splash on election night you need to watch its moves day after day.

    The Macri government is built on marketing and PR, where image counts way more than hard truth.

    As a result, team Macri carefully orchestrated the release of information so that they could make a big celebration, covered by the media, on prime time on election night. Most Argentines went to sleep in the belief that CFK had been crushed. She publicly spoke at 4 p.m. when the results had radically changed from a few hours before--who could've been listening at that time?

    Thus the Macri government showed its true nature; a nasty one behind the yellow balloon façade, ready to make a mockery of due process in order to score a few, ephemeral points.

    Macri counts on friendly media to make sure the true results of CFK election appear on page 10--if at all.

    Aug 18th, 2017 - 01:12 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Marti Llazo

    Reekie: “Argentina is one of few countries where the elections are under the control of the executive branch of the government instead of the judicial branch. ...”

    Reekie is full of shite, again.

    Election commissions are often directed by a cabinet minister or other element of the executive branch of government, and may include local government authorities acting as agents of the central executive body. Such countries include not just Singapore but also Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, and on and on beyond reekie's mendacious horizon. In the United States, elections for federal, state, and local offices are run by the executive branch of each state government. In reekie's Canada and in Oz and the UK the independent election commissions report not to the judiciary but to Parliament. So reekie is lying to us again.

    Regarding reekie's mention of balloons and his earlier laughable claim about no evidence has been presented for the convictions of kirchnerist leaders, former interior minister Moreno is on trial at the moment and looking at the possibility of 6 years in prison for misuse of public funds and unlawful intimidation. Part of the evidence involving unlawful use of public monies includes purchases of balloons for a propaganda campaign by the KK government against the opposition press. We should know more about Moreno's conviction status next week, along with the outcome for the KK defendant co-conspirators. Stay tuned.

    Aug 18th, 2017 - 02:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Tarquin Fin

    @imoyaro

    Yes, prisoners can vote. I believe it has been so since 1983.

    I put no blame on poor people that votes a candidate that they think will bring them well being and a few extra mangos in their pockets.

    I believe Cristina's vote is a complex phenomenon. Punteros act as intermediaries between the poor and the local Baron. They herd people towards a political preference in exchange for crums.
    I guess a puntero is something like a political komissar, only worse since they are usually involved in dark activities as well. They might participate directly in these illicit activities or they might provide cover for gangs and the like. It is quite easy for them since people in these neighborhoods don´t trust police (usually they are involved in crime too). Also, nobody in the poor sectors good dare to speak up against a puntero. They know better than that.

    Punteros are not an exclusive thing of Kirchnerism. They are political mercenaries. In times of Peron, they had “manzaneras” (manzana = city block). Other parties have this kind of people at their service as well. However, Kirchnerism had made extensive use of this political system. Punteros always existed but their influence has increased since the late 90's and obviously multiplied after the 2001 crisis.

    Aug 18th, 2017 - 02:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Enrique Massot

    @ML

    “...former interior minister Moreno is on trial at the moment...”

    Martillazo uses Macri's strategy--the best defense is a good attack.

    Accordingly, any misstep of the current administration will bring about big declarations on how really bad former Kirchnerist officials were.

    And to think that many Argentines voted for Macri because they did believe he was coming to improve things.

    @TF

    Talking about “punteros,” our dear Tarquin is softening the ground in anticipation of a forced landing when the real election numbers come about in a few days.

    Of course, this strategy will come handy if what is now potential fraud is confirmed by the electoral justice (Zero vote recorded for opposition parties in polling stations identified by citizens who did vote for those parties).

    Macrists and their crusaders will then say, “not, really, look at what Kirchnerists did in previous elections.”

    Actually, they are already saying it.

    Aug 18th, 2017 - 03:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Tarquin Fin

    @Enrique

    I´m not softening any ground for anybody. If fraud was committed in BA province, I'm the first one that wants to know about it.

    On the other hand, do you think it is beneficial to let punteros do the ground work in our politics?

    It is a fact that all political parties have relied on punteros at one time or another. Even Macri´s PRO has got their own punteros at Villa 31.

    Who benefits from this system? The people?

    Aug 18th, 2017 - 05:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • DemonTree

    @ML
    I don't think Britain really has an equivalent to the separation of powers in the US and similar presidential systems. But elections are run by an independent commission, and the government has nothing to do with the counting or announcement of results. Also, counting continues until it is finished and the results for each constituency are not announced until then. In any case, I have never heard of a government interfering in the order of counting or timing of results before. Closest thing would be Bush's brother ordering the recount stopped in Florida in order the give him the presidency, which is much worse.

    But it's not like you to miss an opportunity to talk about how backward Argentina is. One could almost believe you are trying to distract us from Enrique's accusations.

    @TF
    How do the punteros know that people have voted as they promised? Do they hand out rewards to a whole area that voted in their favour instead of to individuals? I don't know about EM, but they sound like a big problem for democracy to me, essentially buying votes.

    Also, so that's what a manzana is! I encountered the name in my job ages ago and I wondered why on earth there were geographical divisions called apples.

    @EM
    The final totals will count a lot more than image in the real elections.

    Is someone going to investigate the claimed fraud?

    Aug 18th, 2017 - 06:08 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Enrique Massot

    @TF

    I'll take your word and withdraw what I said about you in my previous post with apologies.

    I agree: bribing or coercing people to vote for a candidate is bad for democracy and should be denounced--don't know if something can legally be done against it.

    @DT

    There has been a formal request for investigation of president Macri and other government officials for potential public duty misconduct and fraud. Electoral judge Maria Servini de Cubria is in charge of the case.

    However, this denunciation was made on Monday and appears to focus on manipulation of information about the election results.

    Since then there has been a flurry of citizens coming forward claiming their ballots hadn't been counted. They are able to log in to http://www.resultados.gob.ar (a great tool) where they can check the telegram sent from the polling station to the processing centre and read the ballot amount each party has received. If they see “zero” for a party they know they cast a ballot for, they know something strange happened.

    Some of those citizens contacted C5N TV and the channel asked others to document similar cases. Up to today they got over 12,000 complaints--however, I do not know whether there has been a formal denunciation.

    In the meantime, word is out that the final count has added 4,000 ballots to CKF's Union Ciudadana in La Plata city, where Macri's Cambiemos is winning by a large percentage.

    About the relative value of final totals versus preliminary results, I agree that in time the real numbers will count more.

    However, your assessment is rational--and you probably know that politics in general and elections in particular are strongly influenced by emotion. We don't know how the electorate may be influenced by the PASO results when they vote in October.

    Aug 18th, 2017 - 07:29 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    @EM
    It seems unlikely anyone would commit electoral fraud in a way that's so easy to detect. Everyone must know that the results are published online and falsely setting counts to zero would make it easy to see. But unless they find an innocent explanation I imagine they will investigate this too.

    Unfortunately you are right that elections are strongly influenced by emotion. But apart from the still-awaited result in Buenos Aires, didn't Cambiemos do unexpectedly well in the rest of the country?

    Aug 19th, 2017 - 12:26 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Marti Llazo

    Author of this media note (Oppenheimer) is argentine. I have a couple of his books. I don't agree with all of what he writes but his material is generally worth reading (and is mostly available in Engrish):

    “Argentina has chance of a lifetime to discard its populist past. Will Macri pull it off?”

    “Macri, a center-right president, won most major provinces in the Aug. 13 primary for congressional candidates, which are widely seen as a preview of what may happen in key congressional elections scheduled for Oct. 22.”

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/andres-oppenheimer/article167625747.html

    Aug 19th, 2017 - 03:47 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Enrique Massot

    @ML

    I am truly impressed by Martillazo's cleverness.

    He gifts us with an op-ed barely disguised as news that quotes only one side--president Mauricio Macri--and tells us that ”Macri...won most major provinces in the Aug. 13 primary (election).“

    This, Demon Tree, is the effect sought by the Macri administration: having electors, media and other opinion-makers assume the results released early on election night.

    Demon Tree, rightly puzzled, asks ”didn't Cambiemos do unexpectedly well in the rest of the country?

    Well: of course, if you google today for results, you find mostly stories such as an Aug. 14 La Nacion article that tells you that ”According to official (early) data, Cambiemos wins in the districts with most electors...Buenos Aires City and the provinces of Buenos Aires, Santa Fe, Córdoba and Mendoza.”

    We now know that in Santa Fe a complaint made the count continue, showing at the last minute that candidate Agustin Rossi was ahead. We know that CFK will likely be the winner in Buenos Aires province.

    As a result, preliminary information shows Macri's Cambiemos winning on 12 of 24 districts (provinces plus BA city).

    A good election? Yes.

    A landslide? Not at all. If Cristina's win is confirmed, the opposition will have won the provinces of Buenos Aires and Santa Fe, which concentrate 45 per cent of the country's electors.

    However, “managed” publication of results cast a shadow on the Macri government's character.

    The amount of citizens' complaints about zero vote counts for Cristina in polling stations where they know they cast ballots for her is on the thousands, and cast an even darker shadow on the Aug. 13 elections and the Macri government.

    I need to say that I do not support Macri's policies or acts of government. However, not in my wildest dreams I thought his government would try tricks like this.

    Live and learn I guess.

    Aug 19th, 2017 - 08:40 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • imoyaro

    I notice Kamerad/Komrade Rique isn't citing any printed Spanish Language sources to back what he is saying. How about it, Kamerad/Komrade, care to provide what you are saying in writing? :)

    Aug 20th, 2017 - 08:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    What I wanted to know was how the composition of the senate and chamber of deputies would change if these results are repeated in October. I can't find anything online, and it's quite hard to work out. There are so many little parties who may or may not be allied with each other.

    According to Wikipedia there are currently 39 senators belonging to FpV, and 17 for Cambiemos. Of these I think 15 from FpV and only 3 from Cambiemos are up for reelection, which should make it easier for Macri to make gains vs CFK.

    The new party names don't match the old ones, just to make it even more confusing. I *think* there would be 10-11 senators allied with CFK and 11-12 with Macri, which is certainly a gain for him. This would change the totals to 34-35 for CFK and 25-26 for Macri; CFK allies would lose their majority, but still be leaving Macri's substantially behind. Guess it would depend how the other parties voted.

    Calculating for the chamber of deputies looks even harder. It's done by PR, so depending how the numbers turn out, it might not even matter in these close races who comes out ahead. I guess it really was all about spin when reporting the victories.

    Aug 20th, 2017 - 11:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    Tree, your language skills may be a bit deficient but you might be able to follow the pictures:

    http://www.infobae.com/politica/2017/08/14/como-quedaria-el-congreso-si-se-repitieran-estos-resultados-en-las-elecciones-de-octubre/

    The images make the assumption that the real election will show the same sort of winners assumed to have placed in the primaries.

    If that is correct, then this model shows the lower house (deputies) would comprise 104 seats for Cambiemos, 42 for non-KK peronismo, and 70 for the Kirchnerist FpV (Fraude por Vándalos).

    The Senate could have (under these assumptions) 26 for Cambiemos, 28 for Kirchnerismo, and 14 for non-KK peronismo. But there is no assurance that things will necessarily follow the primaries.

    Aug 21st, 2017 - 01:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Thank you Marti (or would you prefer to be called Llazo?) That is exactly what I was looking for.

    So in the Chamber of Deputies Macri is likely to win more seats, but not at the expense of the K's. But in the Senate they stand to lose their majority and he could increase his block significantly.

    If the result in October is similar then it should make it easier for him to carry out his program, although as far as I know he hasn't suffered too much opposition in any case.

    I noticed in some of the elections that there were several candidates for one party, which is what I would expect in a primary election. So why do so many of them only have one candidate listed? Also, what happens if someone wants to stand as an independent but wins enough to get more than one seat?

    Aug 21st, 2017 - 12:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    Another picture for you, tree, in the following press note. It suggests that, in general, those provinces with the highest voter participation were also those that resulted in a commanding support for Cambiemos - using the provisional counts from the primaries. You can make of that what you might:

    in http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2054795-las-provincias-con-mas-y-menos-asistencia-a-las-urnas

    Another media story suggests that, again, ridiculous reekie is full of shite and of himself, since it disputes the notion of large gains by kirchnerismo in economically depressed portions of greater Buenos Aires, using the provisional primary numbers. The subhead ( “La alianza oficialista mejoró su performance electoral en casi todos los distritos del GBA en comparación a 2015” ) infers that Macrismo bettered its performance, vis-a-vis the 2015 elections, in nearly all districts of greater Buenos Aires. The goggleable title for that story is in the Clarín Politica section as “El voto en el conurbano: Cambiemos salió bien parado en los barrios más golpeados.”

    In other analyses of the vote counts, there are indications that Kirchner came out more poorly in 2017 total votes in Bs As province, with fewer votes in 2017 than her approved peroncho candidate Scioli won in the province in 2015. This loss of total votes in this area for Kirchner can be perhaps explained by diminishing support in general as well as competition by the non-K peronist bloc.

    But then, we're only looking at primaries and provisional counts within primaries.

    Aug 21st, 2017 - 03:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    Marti is buoyed by stories from sources such as Clarin and La Nacion--let him cheer while he can.
    Meanwhile, the definitive count progresses. Final results in the Buenos Aires province districts of Moreno, San Martín, San Isidro, Escobar and Malvinas Argentinas have already given CFK 9,000 extra ballots.
    This is more than the 7,000-ballot advantage Esteban Bullrich claimed on Aug. 13.
    Even in districts where Cambiemos wins, CFK ballots previously unrecorded have surfaced, narrowing the difference with Bullrich.
    Now the obvious question is: were the results so bad that Cambiemos needed to do its shameful show delaying the release of results in BA province, or it's just their habit to boast and lie?
    We'll see it in a few more days.

    Aug 22nd, 2017 - 04:18 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Marti Llazo

    Reekie “ ...or it's just their habit to boast and lie?”

    When it comes to boasting and lying, no one can hold a candle to Kirchnerismo.

    Aug 22nd, 2017 - 12:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    @ML

    “When it comes to boasting and lying, no one can hold a candle to Kirchnerismo.”

    Really.

    Well...we get Marti does not like Cristina or any Kirchnerist for that matter. But he's got the right to his opinion.

    It seems there is about 2.9 million electors in Buenos Aires province who seem to disagree with Marti.

    I tend to agree with those citizens.

    Aug 22nd, 2017 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Marti Llazo

    That reekie would agree with and support the voting preferences of those who comprise the jail and prison populations in Argentina does not in any significant way generate surprise.

    Aug 23rd, 2017 - 06:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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