MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Catalonia dispute: Madrid sends 6.000 extra police; Barcelona appeals to Europe to mediate
Barcelona police have sealed off a warehouse said to be stocking ballot boxes, as Spain seeks to obstruct a Catalan independence referendum. The Guàrdia Urbana force was obeying an order from prosecutors to prevent the Catalan vote being held on Sunday. About 16,000 school and university students marched through Barcelona demanding that the vote go ahead. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesThe Spanish try to claim that the people of Gibraltar do not have the right to self-determination so what chance do the Catalans have?
Sep 29th, 2017 - 09:41 am - Link - Report abuse +1For some relevant opinions on self-determination and its applicablity:
Gibraltar – Self-Determination (single page): https://www.academia.edu/33409907/Gibraltar_Self_-Determination
Hey Bob...Do you support the Catalan's right to self determination...?
Sep 29th, 2017 - 03:18 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Is Catalonia not part of Spain?
Sep 29th, 2017 - 10:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is now, but part of it used to be in France...the Kingdom of Aragon a completely separate Kingdom from Castile...
Sep 29th, 2017 - 10:59 pm - Link - Report abuse -1If you ever visit the areas of Languedoc and Roussillon in the South of France you will hear Catalan spoken...
...No answer Bob...?
Never mind I know you don't support them and just wanted to highlight your hypocrisy in relation to self determination for all peoples...
Voicey: “ it is now, but part of it used to be in France...the Kingdom of Aragon a completely separate Kingdom from Castile..”
Sep 30th, 2017 - 04:34 am - Link - Report abuse +2Only partly right and a bit backwards. In fact, part of what is now Catalan France used to be part of Spain. The kingdom of Aragon was not a part of France (until the brief French occupation in the beginning of the 19th century). Before the advent of Aragon much of present Catalunya was somewhat under Frankish control but it was intended to be something of a buffer between the Franks and the Moors. The kingdom of Aragon pretty much let the Catalans do their own thing with language, culture, and law. Once the Borbones (Felipe V) took over present Catalunya in the 18th century, Catalunya was screwed, stripped of fueros and increasingly forced into the mold of centralised Spain. Then at the end of the Spanish Civil War, Franco seriously beat the Catalans into submission, prohibiting even the speaking of Catalan in public (though that eventually relaxed in the 1960s but we could not have radio or television broadcasts in Catalan until after Franco's death in 1975). Franco tried to dilute Catalan nationalism and culture by not just denying the use of the language but by the importation of a... yes.... implanted population, in the form of thousands of workers relocated to Catalunya from the rest of Spain.
Do you hear much Catalan spoken today around the French Catalan areas? When I was younger and spent a good bit of holiday time around Perpignan, yes, but it was not the primary language by any means. I'd say back then maybe only 5 percent or so of the young people could speak acceptable Catalan in all of the Roussillon department. Today it is spoken less and dying out, used occasionally by older folks or in smaller and more remote towns. About like trying to find a real Welsh speaker in Chubut -- there are precious few of them, no matter what the tourist guides say.
Hi ha més, és clar
Voice
Sep 30th, 2017 - 10:06 am - Link - Report abuse -1I'll side with Ban Ki-Moon on the issue.
Catalonia’s push for independence from Spain is illegitimate, as the region has not been recognized by the United Nations as a non-autonomous territory, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon told Spanish media.
“When one speaks of self-determination, certain areas have been recognized by the United Nations as non-autonomous territories. But Catalonia does not fall into this category,” Ban said in an interview with Spanish newspapers El Pais, El Mundo, ABC and La Vanguardia. (31 Oct 2015)
“ ....recognised by the United Nations...”
Sep 30th, 2017 - 03:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +3If ever there were a losing proposition, it would be seen in the limited intellectual capital and dishonesty of convenience that characterises the UN.
The UK did not have to hold a referendum on Scottish independence, as I don't believe Scotland is classed by the UN as a separate nation.
Sep 30th, 2017 - 06:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But the UK did the right thing and held the referendum anyway.
The longer Spain try to thwart even an non binding referendum like this, the more Catalonia will get support for independence inside their country.
So I'm with the right with the Catalonian's right to hold a referendum.
If the Spanish don't want to lose Catalonia, all they have to do is present reasons why it would be better for them to stay part of Spain.
I don't believe they have those reasons.
PB: “ ..If the Spanish don't want to lose Catalonia, all they have to do is present reasons why it would be better for them to stay part of Spain....”
Sep 30th, 2017 - 07:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Spain says it is better for Spain that Catalunya is forced to remain, and Catalunya's interests be damned. Catalunya pays Spain's bills at gunpoint. Without Catalunya, the unemployable ni-nis in Jaén don't get their welfare cheques and the madrilenyos might actually have to do some work. For centuries, Madrid has milked Catalunya while trying to destroy its language, culture, and identity.
Els catalans tenen dret a l'autodeterminació. Visca Catalunya lliure i sobirana!
What a laugh look at my downticks for highlighting the likes of “I support self determination for Brits only”, Bob's hypocrisy...
Sep 30th, 2017 - 10:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -2...either you support peoples rights to self determination or you don't...
...and who TF was Ban Ki-Moon anyway...just a civil servant with a fancy title...he was not the UN and his opinions were his own and not worth a crap...
..and since when does the UN get to say who has rights and who doesn't...
As Pete Bog mentions there are a lot of parallels that can be drawn between Scotland and Catalonia and a huge risk was undertaken by allowing the vote, jeopardising territorial integrity, but it happened...
Voice
Oct 01st, 2017 - 10:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0Self-determination applies to ALL NSGTs. Unfortunately Catalonia is not a NSGT.
Last week the Venice Commission – a panel of experts who advise the Council of Europe on constitutional law – wrote to Puigdemont, Catalan politician, telling him that the referendum would have to be carried out “in agreement with the Spanish authorities … and in full compliance with the constitution and the applicable legislation”.
In a recent ruling on the hypothetical secession of Bavaria, for example, the German Constitutional Court indicated that the federal states are not sovereign but fall within the Federal Republic of Germany where questions of national sovereignty lie with all German people.
@Voice
Oct 01st, 2017 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0That IS the position of the UN. Easy for the countries that make it up to do the right thing when condemning colonialism, and insist on self-determination for non-self governing territories, when only a minority ever had them.
Not too many are willing to apply the same principle to peoples within a country, when it could easily demand their own sacrifice.
Judging by what is going on in Catalunya at the moment, General Franco is not still dead.
Oct 01st, 2017 - 02:21 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“ Catalonia triumphant shall once again be rich and beautiful.
Oct 01st, 2017 - 09:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Drive them back, those people so conceited and so arrogant.
A good blow with the sickle!
A good blow with the sickle, defenders of the land!
A good blow with the sickle!”
imoyaro -
Oct 02nd, 2017 - 02:05 am - Link - Report abuse +1“ Catalonia triumphant shall once again be rich and beautiful.
Drive them back, those [fascists] so conceited and so arrogant.....”
Tens raó, imoyaro -
Catalunya, triomfant,
tornarà a ser rica i plena!
Endarrere aquesta gent
tan ufana i tan superba!
Bon cop de falç!
Bon cop de falç, defensors de la terra!
Bon cop de falç!
Ara és hora, segadors!
Ara és hora d’estar alerta!
Per quan vingui un altre juny
esmolem ben bé les eines!
- Els Segadors (és el nostre himne oficial de Catalunya)
@ML
Oct 02nd, 2017 - 05:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0I apologize for the incorrect wording, “beautiful” should be “bountiful,” but as time is the enemy, I remembered it wrong. You might be surprised to know I have several books on Catalunya, and not just “Tirant Lo Blanc.” I know the song refers to the revolt against the tyranny of Olivares, the creature of Phillip II, which went on from 1640 t0 1652, and I like the line about “now we reap wheat, but then we shall reap chains.” I wish nothing but the best for your country. ;)
Croatia, Catalunya. Croatia was hammered into the Austro-Hungarian empire; Catalunya was hammered into Aragon (there are still people in Punta Arenas who remember Croatians being called “ austriacos”). Croatia was later forced into a nation recognised by all of Europe: Yugoslavia - in much the same way that Catalunya was forced into Spain, and Yugoslavia's constitution prohibited Croatia's independence. Yet today Croatia is independent and Catalunya is not. Europe's inconsistency and disgusting hypocrisy for political convenience - again on display. Catalunya deserves the opportunity for independence every bit as much as Croatia did.
Oct 02nd, 2017 - 02:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +1And Spain thinks for just one moment that the Gibraltese would ever agree to Spain taking over their lives..??...Come on now after watching how their “Gestapo” acted over this referendum horse shit....Not a chance.....The UK had a referendum concerning Scotland...Canada one concerning Quebec...No violence...in either one of them...I guess the same could be claimed over the Falkland Islands....Kinda sad that these Latin types just dont understand what democracy really means...!
Oct 02nd, 2017 - 07:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@capitano: “ ....these Latin types just dont understand what democracy really means...!”
Oct 03rd, 2017 - 12:34 am - Link - Report abuse +1Sure they do.
In the latino democracies they beat you with sticks.
In the latino dictatorships they beat you with sticks and throw you in jail.
@ Marti Llazo
Oct 03rd, 2017 - 01:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Spain says it is better for Spain that Catalunya is forced to remain, and Catalunya's interests be damned. Catalunya pays Spain's bills at gunpoint. Without Catalunya, the unemployable ni-nis in Jaén don't get their welfare cheques and the madrilenyos might actually have to do some work. For centuries, Madrid has milked Catalunya while trying to destroy its language, culture, and identity.”
Absolutely.
Parallels here( surprise suprise )with the Argentine method of wooing the Falkland Islanders, wanting to run the Islands in the Falkland islander's' interests' which translate into 'Argentine' interests, meaning Argentina not investing in the islands, Argentines not living in the Islands, Argentines not defending the islands against the threat of attack, making the islanders using ancient airliners, and dissolving the FIG. Apparently, that's supposed to persuade the Islanders to be Argentine. And of course Argentina's trump card of persuading the Islanders to be Argentine, the invasion in 1982.
That went down well didn't it?
Seems Lovejoy has the same idea.
Not difficult to see why Spain lost its empire by revolution, rather than handing land over in an organised manner, i.e. no Spanish commonwealth on the horizon.
Prediction: Spain will bang on about Gibraltar,(whilst keeping its Morroccan colonies) and lose it's richest region by default.
What's the betting Lovejoy has a poster of Franco's ass he kisses every night?
Current map of Spain: https://pics.me.me/austria-balaton-galiza-catalunya-eu-adriatic-sea-italy-100-kilometers-15947077.png
Oct 05th, 2017 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
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