MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Argentine navy and air force dispute operation of the five refurbished Super Etendard
The purchase by Argentina of five refurbished French Super Etendard to help with security measures when Argentina hosts the 2018 G20 summit, which will bring together the world's top leaders, has triggered a dispute among the country's services since the current defense minister, Oscar Aguad wants to concentrate all military aircraft in the Air Force. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesHow long will it take for these aircraft to become non operational due to RG incompetence, like all the others?
Nov 16th, 2017 - 10:00 am - Link - Report abuse +2The purchase by Argentina of five refurbished French Super Etendard to help with security measures when Argentina hosts the 2018 G20 summit...
Nov 16th, 2017 - 10:05 am - Link - Report abuse -2President Macri, Argentine Congress 1 March 2017
''Next year Argentina will host the G20, one of the most important forums in the world.
This is the way to advance our interests, including our legitimate claim for the Falkland Islands, Georgias and South Sandwich.
Dialogue strengthens our position and allows us to come closer to finding a definitive solution to this prolonged dispute.''
How can Argentina claim the Falklands when she has never legally owned them?
Falklands- Never Belonged to Argentina:
https://www.academia.edu/31111843/Falklands_Never_Belonged_to_Argentina
We have our own version of Hepatia et al above. Could we TRY to keep to the subject without the inevitable reference to “/Falklands_Never_Belonged_to_Argentina”
Nov 16th, 2017 - 10:48 am - Link - Report abuse +2It does become a little tiresome!.
This squabble about the S.Etandards just seems like inter service rivalry which can be found in the armed forces of all nations.
Perhaps the pilots from the Navy and airforce could have a boxing match to decide who flies them? In front of the representatives of the G20.
Nov 16th, 2017 - 11:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Two bald men fighting over a comb.
Nov 17th, 2017 - 02:50 pm - Link - Report abuse +3In other news, the Argentine navy has lost contact with one of their subs: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42030560
Nov 17th, 2017 - 06:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I hope the crew are OK, but if the Navy can't look after its subs then why should we think they'd do any better with aeroplanes? I doubt that a Super Etendard would be a first choice for submarine search and rescue operations.
The Argentine navy had no business operating their diesel-electric attack boat ARA San Juan in the Atlantic as their record of poor maintained equipment is dismal. In Chile and Peru, our submarines undergo tough certification by the German shipbuilder. In Argentina, they routinely ignore this. Pray for the crew.
Nov 17th, 2017 - 07:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Argentina has no business having a military period. Neither does Chile, Peru or any other nation that can't design and produce them themselves. All the billions that could be spent in other areas being burned in these pointless institutions. 100 years ago maybe when armies where much more evenly matched, but not today. A military that can't defeat all possible oponents is useless by nature.
Nov 17th, 2017 - 11:48 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Further, buying second hand material from world powers is the most perverse form of FOREIGN AID. You grossly overpay for aging junk that will just sit somewhere and take on rust. You also relieve those nations selling the equipment from spending the money to dismantle and dispose of the obsolete metal. Finally, you subsidize the defense industries of potential enemies. I am totally opposed to these purchases and the lives of 44 men and women may be the needed sacrifice to finally understand Argentina should not field any military at all. Not unless it doubles or triples GDP, and then raises military spending to 6%. But even then there would be a couple of militaries that could defeat it, which makes it pointless.
One would never buy a weapon that can only neutralize some threats.
@ZB
Nov 18th, 2017 - 12:22 am - Link - Report abuse +1I saw that story too. I hope the crew are okay but there's less margin for error on a submarine. :(
@Trollboy
No weapon can neutralise all threats. You might as well say 'why wear your seatbelt?' when it won't stop you dying in all accidents. You should treat war like anything else: look at the risks and the probabilities, compare the costs and the benefits and prepare accordingly.
Argentina has fairly good relationships with most of its neighbours these days, and no other country is at all likely to attack you, so defence shouldn't be a priority. But you needed some planes for the G7 meeting and I'm sure your government would give a lot to avoid having to beg Chile for help. Besides, I don't get the impression Argentina overpaid for these planes, sounds like France was almost giving them away.
Correct I don't wear a seatbelt nor do I vaccinate myself with any vaccine tha does not guarantee 100% effectiveness. I also don't use helmet since it does not neutralize all threats like concussion.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 12:45 am - Link - Report abuse -5RE submarine: According to television here a few minutes ago, the nature of the events has changed from being characterised as “attempting to communicate with the San Juan” to “a rescue effort.” But that might be licence taken by the broadcast speaker. The argie navy says it's still trying to reestablish comm and won't admit anything else is wrong. The map being used by national media shows the location as just north of the of the Falklands EEZ.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 01:29 am - Link - Report abuse +1The San Juan was known to have severe operational restriction.
@Trollboy
Nov 18th, 2017 - 01:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well you're a bloody idiot then, aren't you?
And you're not the only one. Deaths on the road in Argentina averaged 7500 per year since 1990 according to the Bubble. Road deaths in the UK last year increased to 1780. Guess which country has more cars?
@ML
I'm sure I read this afternoon they had switched to a search and rescue effort, but who knows.
But what was it doing that far out, I thought it was travelling back to its home port from Ushuaia?
@ML
Nov 18th, 2017 - 02:18 am - Link - Report abuse +1Since the get go they claimed that the communications were down to an electrical problem, and that they would be sailing on the surface using their radar. It's a Diesel/ Electric sub, and of course the radar needs electricity as well. With no beacon activated and bad meteorological condidtions, this does not bode well for the crew.
The television people seem to be a little confused about events and it doesn't look like the armada is helping much. Print media are saying there was an announcement of shift to search and rescue as of this morning (Argentina time) but television was trying to make it sound as if that took place in the evening. And now there are claims that the search was actually started when communication was lost on Wednesday. Armada is backpedaling and saying yes, there was a sort of “search” effort on Wednesday but it was limited to just trying to reestablish comm (huh?) and then there was an additional sort of search effort using aircraft and surface vessels, but then the real search and rescue effort only started this morning, 17 Nov.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 02:47 am - Link - Report abuse +1Listening to the armada people in sound bites suggests rather silly suggestions that oh well the submarine must have surfaced but ya know they just can't communicate with anyone. That might have worked in 1916 but not today. US, UK, Brasil, Chile are all offering help and Macri has made public announcement saying they will make use of international assistance (we all remember when Bachelet in Chile turned down much-needed international assistance when she badly screwed up earthquake emergency response a few years ago). It looks like a US NASA P-3 Orion was made available for the search.
This picture is supposedly 3 1/2 years old, but seriously, that is one dinged up conning tower...
Nov 18th, 2017 - 05:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/6fd944a3ff13394d2a9718ebbfd9917c3d846b43/1_0_3810_2286/master/3810.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=675e4377a4c9b7c1b17609f03fa18de6
Off subject I know but I hope the crew of the San Juan are found safe and well. I can't imagine a worse fate than being trapped in, what amounts to a large tin can, at the bottom of the sea.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 09:14 am - Link - Report abuse +3https://news.sky.com/story/argentinian-military-submarine-ara-san-juan-missing-at-sea-for-two-days-11130303
I understand that the British Government have offered assistance. Let's hope that Argentine pride doesn't get in the way...like it did with the Russians back in the 1990's, where they refused all help until it was too late for the trapped submariners.
The British and USA have the best submarine rescue teams in the world and they are always on standby.
Even further off subject...Tobias the no longer so teenage troll...you don't use a vaccine unless they are 100% effective?!?!?!?
No vaccine in the world is 100% effective, the majority are about 95% effective at best, so I'm surprised that you haven't died of some awful disease. Yet that 95% effectiveness has reduce child mortality by a huge amount. Anyone with any medical knowledge knows that in order for a disease to spread you need a reservoir of the disease, a vector (the thing that spreads the disease...a mosquito for example) and a susceptible population at risk.
If you can remove just one of the above and the disease cannot spread. By vaccinating people you vastly reduce the population at risk. But since it isn't 100% effective, governments usually try to eliminate one of the others too.
Lets take small pox as the most famous example. A huge reservoir (in other words lots of infected people), the vector (by person to person contact), and the population at risk. Vaccination, plus INFECTION PREVENTION and CONTROL have reduced the cases of small pox to 0.
You supposition that everything (from seatbelts to vaccines) must be 100% effective or why bother using them is very childish. It's like saying “I'm not going to eat food unless you can 100% guarantee that I won't choke on it”. Which no one can do.
Nostrils, you are the living proof of the consequences of not wearing a helmet ! However in the UK at least its optional. BTW anodised aluminium doesnt rust.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 09:38 am - Link - Report abuse +2Nostrils
Nov 18th, 2017 - 10:21 am - Link - Report abuse +3I would have to say that your attitude exhibits a large degree of selfishness.
Immunisation protects society, and also, to a lesser degree, does the wearing of seatbelts.
A seat belt is not only of use in a crash. If you get into skid, then the belt will hold you securely as you try to regain control. If you are not wearing one then your only point of balance is to cling to the steering wheel which means you have lost control..
if you have to brake in an emergency, without a seat belt, you will impact with the steering wheel as you lift off the seat and possibly go through the windscreen.
It's obvious that you have no experience in driving a car..
As to vaccinations, you play the percentages. You have a much greater chance of not getting a disease if you are vaccinated and if you do contract it, your survival chances are greatly enhanced..
I was brought up as a child when Polio, T.B. and Smallpox were killers. Since the advent of mass immunisation, these diseases are all but eliminated in Western societies.
As to not wearing a helmet, the human skull cracks easily on contact with the ground.
Better for the helmet to receive a dent than the cranium.
I can only suppose that your skull is so dense that it doesn't matter.
“Print media are saying there was an announcement of shift to search and rescue as of this morning”
Nov 18th, 2017 - 10:53 am - Link - Report abuse +2That explains it, I was looking at the print media when it would still be morning in Argentina. I think they were searching before but hadn't declared it officially, or something.
@LEPRecon
Me too, it sounds horrifying. Clarin is reporting that Britain offered a Hercules to help in the search and Macri accepted; they are taking all assistance offered because the priority is to find the missing men. Fingers crossed they have just lost communications and are on the surface somewhere.
RE Trollboy, he's probably just trolling again and not serious, I doubt he's really that careless with his own life. But it is horrifying how many people are opposed to vaccination nowadays. Unlike Clyde15, they never experienced the death and suffering caused by those diseases, and take the lack of them for granted, not realising just what they are exposing their own kids to. Because if enough people stop vaccinating, these diseases *will* come back.
In Chile and Peru our submarines undergo yearly strict certifications of our submarines by the German shipbuilder. Unfortunately Argentina does not.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 11:01 am - Link - Report abuse +1How do you know “In Chile and Peru...”, just because the say so? What about that airforce plane crash that killed the TVN morning show host? I am sure before that it was supposedly “well maintained”.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 05:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -5As for vaccines, of course as a child I had ni choice but now the thought of injecting myself with the disease I am trying to prevent on the hopes it will maybe skip me or just be a mild form is ridiculous. In life there is such a thing as Over-engineering. Trying to build in so many safety devices or regulations that in the aggregate it makes the whole system riskier than the more rudimentary original.
TA
Nov 18th, 2017 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I know for a fact that Chile and Peru do so because I'm a retired Chilean naval officer. The air disaster that you refer to was due to pilot error, not equipment failure.
@TA
Nov 18th, 2017 - 08:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Then I stand by my earlier comment: you're a bloody idiot.
Read this: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-vaccines-carlsbad-documentary-letters-20140723-story.html
“Those upset by the Carlsbad High production “Invisible Threat” likely grew up in a world made safe by the immunizations they oppose.
”A good chuck of my first-grade class contracted polio; three kids spent time in an iron lung, four had permanent disabilities and one died. All had to repeat first grade. Another two have hearing problems due to the mumps. The list goes on.
“Parents were so fearful of polio that they volunteered their children for the trials of the Salk vaccine. Once it became widely available, the lines went around the block to be immunized. Getting those who grew up “safe” to comprehend the dread we lived with is as impossible as a bird explaining flying to a mole — there is no common frame of reference.”
There used to be wards full of children in iron lungs. Many would come home with braces and crutches, often paralysed for life, and they were the lucky ones who survived. Is that what you want to go back to?
Retired Chilean naval officer,
Nov 18th, 2017 - 10:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Then that still only explains or justifies 1/3 of your statement. How are you privvy to Peru's operations? Ok, lets assume somehow you do due to the Chile-Peru maritime history. You have no clue about Argentina's, you never were in that military structure. Of course, one can speculate that given the evidence from other areas of the military like the air force, this is a possibility, but ultimately it is a guess and you have no proof about it.
I am not telling anyone what to do about vaccination. All I am saying is I don't do anything that is not capable of dealing with all scenarios. Argentina has no business running a military unless it really is willing to take the spending from the laughable 0.6% of 2015 (4 billion) to at least 6% of GDP. That would be north of 20 billlion which would catapult itto top 12 in spending for sure. But then that would mean throwing money all over the world subsiding other's economies. No.
Argentina would be much better off directing funding into education than defence..... Nostrils is living proof of how inadequate their education system is.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 11:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Education is the best defence against stupidity.
@TA
Nov 18th, 2017 - 11:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“I am not telling anyone what to do about vaccination.”
Good. You've already had most of yours so it's not a big problem, but if you ever do have children, please don't put their lives and health at risk.
Also I'm sure you do things all the time that are 'not capable of dealing with all scenarios'. You eat food although it could poison you, you go to work although you could be fired or your company could go bust and fail to pay you. When you have to cross the road you don't step out in front of traffic, but it doesn't guarantee that you won't get run over.
You can't plan for all scenarios anyway, but some things are clearly worth doing. Others like military spending are more debatable, but your reasoning is clearly nonsensical.
Well, I try to stay as much as possible at my Grand Command Center in order to minimize all “uncomputable variables”.
Nov 19th, 2017 - 12:21 am - Link - Report abuse -4'Grand Command Center' = bedroom in your parents' house, I assume?
Nov 19th, 2017 - 12:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0How did you manage to learn English if you've never left Argentina?
Troll
Nov 19th, 2017 - 04:20 am - Link - Report abuse +2Because I continuously read naval reports, with especially great interest of Peruvian, Argentine, Brazilian and Chilean fleets. It's no mystery to even a layman that Argentina cuts corners on matainance.
Nostrils
Nov 19th, 2017 - 12:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +3According to you unless you can guarantee 100% effectiveness you would not use it.
Scenario...... You have been diagnosed with prostrate cancer. Treatment offers an 80% chance of a ten year survival rate, however, this is NOT your 100% certain cure figure.
Do you then refuse treatment and certainly die OR take the treatment with an 80% chance of a ten year remission?
Do you refuse a general anesthetic for an operation because there is a slight chance that this may result in your death....the figures are 1 in 100,000. Your appendix is on the point of rupture and will cause peritonitis which will lead to your death. Will you accept certain death or take the risk of an operation? Remember, survival is not 100% guaranteed.
Comparing hypotheticals to real scenarios is stupid. The scenrario posed of having cancer would be reality before a decision was to be made AFTER the scenario is realized, therefore the calculations are different. War is hypothetical and the decision to spend the money must be made BEFORE any scenario.
Nov 20th, 2017 - 12:30 am - Link - Report abuse -5Argentina should keep isolationist foreign policy in global conflict and it should save the billions a year in the spending on that so called “military”. Take the money and revamp and upgrade the productive highway network.
OK, what about seat belts. You don't wear one, why ? They have been proven to save lives and prevent injury in even minor collisions.
Nov 20th, 2017 - 10:32 am - Link - Report abuse +1@Clyde 15
Nov 20th, 2017 - 10:53 am - Link - Report abuse +1He's an Ucumar, he can't even fit in a car. On the other hand, he's molotoved enough cars in Mendoza driven by women, in search of a “hot date,” that belting in would strike him as a bad idea...
https://corporacionphantom.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/e0125-projec8.jpg
Troll,
Nov 20th, 2017 - 03:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“I don't wear a seatbelt nor do I vaccinate myself with any vaccine ... I also don't use helmet”
That explains so much.
A brain-damaged, diseased idiot would be expected to post a lot of nonsense.
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