MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Hopes to find missing submarine ARA San Juan fading after five days
Argentine submarine ARA San Juan reported an electrical problem and was headed back to base when it went missing last week in the South Atlantic, the navy said on Monday, while storms complicated efforts to find the vessel and its 44 crew members. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesAlthough I still hope for a miracle and that the crew of the San Juan are found safe and sound it really isn't looking good right know.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 08:44 am - Link - Report abuse +4Also the Argentine government needs to get a grip of its Navy spokesperson and tell them to STFU. Why? Because they keep blabbing about everything they're doing without waiting to see what the outcome is.
For instance...the San Juan tried to contact their base 7 times...except that they didn't. The Argentine navy has picked up the sounds on the bottom that must be sailors tapping on the sub to attract attention...except that it turn out to be normal sea life going about it's everyday business.
All of this 'dangling' of hope before the world, only to pull the rug out a few hours later, must be hell on the families of those sailors.
So, Macri, get a grip of your Navy and tell them to report nothing until it's been verified. At most they should just be putting out bland statements that the Argentine Navy are following several leads and will brief the Press more once they've been investigated.
I cannot help but think of this... :(
Nov 21st, 2017 - 09:08 am - Link - Report abuse +2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dlXmuYuAYc
It was stated that the submarine had 14 days of food and emergency oxygen. This give me the impression that there is another 9 days to find the submarine, rescue the crew and maybe the submarine intact. Let's hope that PROTECTOR with its multi beam high definition sonar or the oncoming US P8 aircraft can find her.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 10:12 am - Link - Report abuse +5“Galeazzi said it is normal for submarines to suffer system malfunctions”
Nov 21st, 2017 - 01:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +6Especially normal for old submarines refitted at argentine shipyards.
Especially normal for old submarines refitted at argentine shipyards lacking in the qualifications to do such refitting.
Especially normal for old submarines refitted at argentine shipyards lacking in the qualifications to do such refitting but done anyway to satisfy a political objective and feed the nationalist faction.
Vivir con lo nuestro, y morir en el intento.
@Marti Llazo
Nov 21st, 2017 - 02:42 pm - Link - Report abuse -7At this point your comments, and posts, are making me lose interest in your ideas. They are, quite clear, based on your hate to any argentine expression of life.
“at argentine shipyards lacking in the qualifications to do such refitting”. Where did you get this? I like to read everything that appears on the media about submarines...I have never read that that the german manufacturer, Thyssen, mentioned that.
Most of the top navies lost submarines (in peace times) due to accidents and technical failures. Russia lost the Kusrk, USA los the USS Scorpion and the USS Thresher.....etc.
Reading your posts is now a waste of time. You belong to the very same team as “Chicureo”....
pgerman, your argentinicity prevents you from facing reality, thus anyone who brings forth the daemons of reason, observation, broccoli, or history is in your cosmos somehow hateful.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Let's say this again: the Tandanor shipyard lacked the necessary qualifications for the upgrade work for the ARA San Juan, in terms of both qualified personnel and necessary equipment, and this was communicated to the Argentine government by Thyssen. However, Thyssen didn't buy a full-page advert in the NYT to let everyone know that. Do you really believe that your tin-pot armada would admit “Germany says our shipyards suck” ? Do you have any idea of how many millions of euros were spent by Argentina to pay for foreign assistance in upgrading that submarine? Even with that, all those efforts resulted in a final result that was not certified by Thyssen. Have you perhaps noticed that no one in any responsible media these days is asking, hey, Thyssen, I thought you said our upgrade was just the cat's pijamas? But there are many who are now openly reminding us all that the deliberate destruction of the argentine armed forces was a political objective of the Kirchner government. So you think that the navies of the developed world are on the same level at Argentina? Try this simple experiment: take the total number of hours of submarine operation by real navies in the last 20 years and divide that by serious mishaps. Now take the tiny number of hours of submarine operation by Argentina in the last 20 years and divide that by the number of serious mishaps. See who wins the martyr prize.
Léalo y llore: “La Armada retuvo información sobre las condiciones del ARA San Juan y su tripulación a bordo”
https://www.infobae.com/politica/2017/11/21/la-armada-retuvo-informacion-sobre-las-condiciones-del-ara-san-juan-y-su-tripulacion-a-bordo/
Interesting that the argentine defence minister learned about the disappearance of the San Juan not from the navy but from the newspapers.....
@Marti Llazo
Nov 21st, 2017 - 04:56 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Again.I would like to read solid information from you instead of smelling smoke.
“The Tandanor shipyard lacked the necessary qualifications for the upgrade work for the ARA San Juan, in terms of both qualified personnel and necessary equipment, and this was communicated to the Argentine government by Thyssen” From where did you get this piece of information? .
Do you really believe that your tin-pot armada would admit “Germany says our shipyards suck” ? From where did you get that “Germany says our shipyards suck”?
”All those efforts resulted in a final result that was not certified by Thyssen“.? Where did you get this piece of information. All of us know the works have been donde with the direct assistance of Thyssen engineers, and technicians, who gave the final ”green light”.
So you think that the navies of the developed world are on the same level at Argentina? I HAVE NEVER MENTIONED THAT but all the navies suffered incidents and accidents in their ships (Russia, China, USA, India, the UK, Australia and Peru as far as I know). And these are ONLY the accidents that were informed to the public.
Nobody knows how many hours submarines operate in each country since submarines are part of hidden missions EVER. Including argentine submarine.
Don't try to divert our discussion to other sides.
Please, I would like to know the source of your information otherwise you would be admitting that you are “inventing” and just telling tales.
Pgrboy:
Nov 21st, 2017 - 05:36 pm - Link - Report abuse +3You seem to be a very ignorant deluded Perónist trying to defend the indefensible.
Let me make it clear why 44 of your countrymen are probably sitting at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean: Argentineans insist on maintaining their decrepit naval fleet by using corrupt domestic contractors that cut corners using inferior materials because the margin of graft is substantially higher than what they could steal using a reputable European manufacturer instead. If you needed one name to easily summarize this would be to reference the infamously icebreaker ship, the ARA Irizar, perhaps the most expensive dry docked icebreaker in the world and a symbol of Perónist wholesale theft.
@Chicureo.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse -7You know nothing about engineering. You know nothing about submarines. The best thing you can do is to keep silence.
@pgerman
Nov 21st, 2017 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse +2And you know nothing of bravery or sacrifice. Or politics, engineering, or anything relating to military affairs. Too bad you couldn't be down there in that watery tomb, instead of those patriots who were forced to give their lives needlessly by the criminal trash you support. Your country needed people like them, not feckless, corrupt individuals like you...
http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/fbe104ede66940eab2c58572db4f4d19/london-england-uk-national-submarine-war-memorial-1922-frederick-brook-d9g993.jpg
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5103149/Argentine-female-submariner-warned-problems-board.html
Nov 21st, 2017 - 06:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +3It would appear that she was in trouble before she set sail.
pgerman
Nov 21st, 2017 - 06:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Both Marti and Chicureo have it right, no amount of closing your eyes and pretending that Argentina doesn't have a systemic corruption problem won't make it true. Corruption at every level of both local and national government have been the norms in Argentina since the beginning. Argentina could be one of the richest countries in the world, but an institutionalised culture of skimming as much money as you can from local and national government funds, means that money meant to improve life for ordinary Argentinians ends up in the pockets (and off shore bank accounts) of a few.
Tell me, pgerman, are you still one of those Argentinians who supported Kirchner and her policies, yet don't live in Argentina so don't have to actually live with the consequences of the decisions that were made? Kirchner who increased her own wealth by more than 1000% whilst in office!!!!!
That's right, if my memory serves, don't you actually live in Canada?
Face it. Argentina's military is crap because there has been no real term investment in it for over 30 years, and the money it is supposed to get disappears into the pockets of unscrupulous politicians and officials.
As for Chicureo not knowing about engineering or submarines, please tell us what your qualifications in these areas are? Chicureo is ex Chilean navy, which probably makes him more of an expert than you are.
As for Argentines not having the expertise to maintain these vessels, he's spot on. The last military vessel Argentina built was over 40 years ago. The lack of investment in materials is obvious, and I really doubt that there's been investment in the education of dockworkers, engineers and the like in the maintenance of military vessels. And please remember that a war ship is NOT a commercial vessel. An engineer of a commercial vessel would be under qualified to run and maintain a military vessel. They are different animals altogether.
Pageboy:
Nov 21st, 2017 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse +3What I've learned in my life without the benefit of an engineering degree or experience as a submariner is that it takes a commitment of millions and millions of Dollars/Euros/Pounds to maintain a viable naval fleet. What I do also know is that our two German submarines are annually certified by their manufacturer.
Argentines on the other hand seem to have a history of acquiring excellent vessels and diverting the naval maintenance budget to the pockets of Perónist politicians.
In my opinion, it was a criminal act for the Argentine navy to sail a poorly maintained submarine crew into the South Atlantic.
And again, I pray for the crew.
@LEPRecon
Nov 21st, 2017 - 06:28 pm - Link - Report abuse -6Bla bla bla bla.
I don't write about technical issues without any solid information as “Chicureo” or “Marti Llazo” do.
As engineer I know that “shits happens”. Even top navies, including the RN, suffered accidents in the past. Do you remember the HMS Endurance docking in “Puerto Belgrano”?
Would you say that the RN is a corrupt institution because of a couple of serious accidents in the icebreaker in the South Atlantic in the last years?
Do you remember the CASA plane of the Chilean Air Force that crashed in the Fernandez Island? Would you say that the FACH is a corrupt institution because of it?
In this particular case, the “ARA San Juan”, we, all of us, know nothing. It is early, too early, to make accusations since we don't have any idea about the events.
As an engineer I can assure you that Thyssen won't give the “green light” if the submarine maintenance did not follow all the quality specifications. Otherwise, the prestige of Thyssen would be internationally at stake.
In engineering sentences such as “we all know”, “people say”, “would you say”, etc are not valid pieces of information.
The clear issue with “Chicureo” or “Marti Llazo” is their hate towards any argentine event...invalidating any comment...not even technical comment. Any kind of comment.
Bla bla bla bla
Nov 21st, 2017 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Yep ,sounds like you, another shill for Narcokleptocracy. Fact is, I don't hate Argentines. I hate corrupt individuals like you. There are now dead patriots because of bipedal detritus like yourself. I look forward to the day that you are forced to pay for your treason in full. ;)
@imoyaro
Nov 21st, 2017 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -5What do you know about the “ARA San Juan” incident (or accident)?
What pieces of SOLID information do you know?
You might be from any intelligence service with access to privileged pieces of information.
In the meanwhile, the rest of the Mankind is guessing....
Pageboy:
Nov 21st, 2017 - 06:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +2You have me wrong “...hate towards any argentine event...”
I actually have close Argentine friends, have happily vacationed there many times and have a tremendous admiration of the wealth of your natural resources.
What I strongly dislike is the culture of systematic Perónist wholesale corruption in Argentina.
If you truly are an engineer as you claim, explain why Argentine battle tanks, jet aircraft, and frigates are all inoperable.
@Chicureo
Nov 21st, 2017 - 07:00 pm - Link - Report abuse -6I strongly hate peronism “in general”, including Juan Domingo Peron “friends”. Dictators such as Francisco Franco, Alfredo Stroessnerr, Augusto Pinochet, Batista, etc...etc.
Argentine defense forces were sent to the very last level of importance such as the rest to the true responsibilities the argentine “state” must take care of. In addition, not all the material of the defense forces are “all inoperable”....this is a false statement.
Pageboy:
Nov 21st, 2017 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse +3FACT: Perónist wholesale corruption in Argentina is what keeps your country of achieving full membership in the G20. FACT: Taking an Argentine frigate into a South Atlantic storm searching for a submarine is a true act of bravery as they all suffer from poor maintenance.
The late edition of the Daily Mail 21/11/2017 reports that two prominent left wing Argentine politicians are made rather nonsensical criticisms about the participation of British vessels in the search for the ARA San Juan.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 08:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +3The individuals are Gabriel Solano of the Workers Party and Fernando Esteche of Quebracho and their comments have been severely criticised by the Argentine public in no uncertain terms.
¡Que peludos de m----a!
If there was further trouble with the batteries at depth, this would result in power failure because they wouldnt be able to run the diesels via the snorkell. This would prevent them being able to blow the tanks and surface. Perhaps they are too deep to use the escape apparatus? Can they transmit a ping to be picked up by sonar? Can subs take extreme weather conditions on the surface.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 08:40 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Any submariners here?
@TheVoice: blowing (emptying) the ballast tanks is via compressed air and very little power is required for that operation in that general type of submarine. In many earlier designs it was possible to open the compressed air valves and lines to blow the tanks manually. In normal or emergency modes the water in the ballast tanks is forced out the bottom on the tanks through the flood ports. But that blowing of ballast presumes a condition within the submarine that supports life and access to control devices as well as proper functioning of those devices. Proper refurbishing of valves on the San Juan was one of the areas where the argentines lacked technical qualification, and as a result there were several attempts at learn-by-doing. We don't know at this time whether those trial and error repairs played a role in the loss of this boat.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +3As far as sending emergency messages we've alluded to this earlier: there is no sign of that, suggesting a catastrophic condition in which the crew were unable to successfully deploy the beacon or transponder. These various designs go by several names, including Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon (EPIRB), Self Powered Submarine Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon (SEPIRB) and so on. Depending on the type, they may only have an effective transmission period of 1-2 days. The newer types (not likely aboard the San Juan) squawk a position via GPS and satellite uplink. If an EPIRB or equivalent has not been deployed and is squawking by now, the likelihood of a successful rescue is considered to be very small.
Just imagine you are one of the 44 crew members just now. Hopefully, it will give you a small feeling of worry about your life on earth and less about Argentinian naval capabilities. I have been through similar naval circumstances where 12 people lost their lives and I still live with the horrible memories of dead bodies
Nov 21st, 2017 - 09:50 pm - Link - Report abuse +2@The Voice
Nov 21st, 2017 - 10:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -2“This would prevent them being able to blow the tanks and surface”. Tanks usually can be emptied manually, if necessary, and usually, by design, the weight/air balance of submarines is very easy to alter so, it should not be a problem to achieve the float if it does not have what is called a “course” in the hull of the submarine that has flooded it and altered the mentioned balance.
“Perhaps they are too deep to use the escape apparatus?” This submarine, by its size and tonnage, can reach a maximun of 250 meters of dept but no human being can survive (without protection) beneath 90/100 meters.
“Can subs take extreme weather conditions on the surface?” Of course they can but, usually, with extreme weather conditions submarines go beneath the surface to avoid troubled waters.
Watching the Argentine TN24Horas news broadcast I'm noticing the optimism has changed from the successful recovery possibility of the crew. The tone is now suspiciously guarded.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 10:36 pm - Link - Report abuse +4This story reminds me of the 44 Chilean miners in a collapsed mine operated by a group of corrupt owners that had little regard for their workers safety.
Could something like this have happened?
Nov 21st, 2017 - 10:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Thresher_(SSN-593)
Obviously not those exact problems, but a loss of power and something that prevented blowing the tanks? The area they were in is deeper than the sub's max depth, isn't it? It's not looking good. :(
pgerman
Nov 21st, 2017 - 10:50 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Your 'whataboutery' is pathetic. Yes other navies have problems. Other navies have had situations where people were killed. Yes 'sh!t happens'. However all of those things get investigated, and generally heads roll, usually the Captains of vessels, or government ministers etc...
Tell me, pgerman, whose heads will roll in Argentina for years of systematic neglect of the Armed Forces, and the stealing of the money they required to be able to safely maintain their assets?
This is not a 'one off' thing, this is one of many incidents that have happened (especially for the Argentine navy) that shows systemic neglect by Argentina over the years. I don't blame the guys in the Argentine navy, they're doing what they can with spit and baling wire. I blame every single government Argentina has had in the last 40 years, and every single government official who has skimmed 'their cut' off of the funds that were supposed to have been spent on the Argentine military.
Your desperately trying to save face here, but none of the countries you have mentioned as having 'problems' have had problems to the extent that Argentina has.
Let's list some of them, shall we?
1. ARA Almirante Irizar - years in dock at the cost of $650 million. You could've brought a new one for that - just where did all that money actually go? It wasn't on fixing the Irizar was it?
2. ARA Santísima Trinidad - sinks in port due to lack of maintenance.
3. ARA Espora - gets stuck in South Africa awaiting repair - parts withheld by the manufacturer until Argentina pays cash up front.
4. ARA Espora - collides with an oil tanker in Port.
Some of these incidents were no doubt due to lack of experience and training for the crew.
The only difference this time is that 44 Argentine sailors may lose their lives, so it's much harder to brush it under the rug and pretend that it never happened.
This is not about saving face...this is about saving lives...something you obviously don't give a damn about.
DemonTree:
Nov 21st, 2017 - 10:51 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Thanks for your excellent link:
“During the 1963 inquiry, Admiral Hyman Rickover stated: I believe the loss of the Thresher should not be viewed solely as the result of failure of a specific braze, weld, system or component, but rather should be considered a consequence of the philosophy of design, construction and inspection that has been permitted in our naval shipbuilding programs. I think it is important that we re-evaluate our present practices where, in the desire to make advancements, we may have forsaken the fundamentals of good engineering.”
...Not feasible in Argentina...
I daresay heads will roll once we find out what happened. And Argentina's other two submarines won't be going anywhere for a while. But whether they will change their philosophy is a different question.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 11:28 pm - Link - Report abuse -1We had an EPIRB on our yacht, I forgot about that. A bouyant EPIRB is so obvious. I cannot believe that a sub wouldnt carry such a device to alert rescuers if you were trapped at depth, and yet nothing. As for the compressed air, that requires power....and air, the tanks must be filled on the surface before you submerge.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 11:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Doesnt look good at all...must have been a catastropic incident
@pgerman
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 11:46 am - Link - Report abuse +4While you're being outraged, hopeful, defensive, you might want to take account of a few facts.
The ARA San Juan is a TR-1700 class submarine. It is a single-hull design with a lightweight bow and stern. Even though a single hull is fairly standard for Western submarines, it probably designed for operations in the Baltic rather than an open ocean. Note that the TR-1700s were rejected by the Royal Australian Navy. Even the central section is only called watertight. There is no mention of a pressure hull. Add to that, that it underwent a mid-life update between 2008 and 2013. During that update, in which the engines and batteries were replaced, the vessel was actually cut in half. I don't know whether that was actually necessary, but I wonder whether it might not have been “safer” to cut holes in the hull rather than actually cut the boat in half. It is recorded that the update took five years due to “economic difficulties”. You might want to recall that 2013 was the year that the ARA Santisima Trinidad sank at its mooring as a result of inadequate maintenance.
There can be no “conclusions” at present. However, there is also the matter of the reports on the weather conditions. Waves to 7 metres in height. So all we have to consider is a submarine with an unspecified electrical malfunction that surfaces. The wave height is much the same as the draught of the boat. A wave, possibly rogue, rolls the boat. That places a strain on the hull. The direction of the strain cannot be known, but we could assume that the helmsman would attempt to keep the boat on an even keel. The question then becomes the strength of the welds where the hull was re-joined. One failure and the boat could begin to break apart. And, with the boat having been cut in half for the replacement of the engines, I would expect the cut to have taken place towards the stern. The boat could “easily” lose all means of propulsion.
@Conqueror
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse -4The TR-1700 class was designed, and built, following argentine navy requirements and specification. At that time the argentine navy expected that a conventional large submarine (it is a 2100/2300 ton ship) would provide the local navy with a conventional submarine with the longest possible range in the South Atlantic Ocean.
Whether Thyssen took advantage of a previous design (to be used in the Baltic Sea) or started from scratch is impossible to verify now.
As you mentioned single hull is the standard for Western submarines so this shouldn't be an issue.
As previously mentioned, the “mid-life” maintenance work was done with the technical guidance, and assistance, of the german manufacturer and it is reasonabIe believe that it was designed to be cut in half in a previously specified area.
Currently the second TR-1700 is in Pedro Domec with its corresponding “mid-life” work in process. I imagine that the maintenance works are “on hold” status now until getting pieces of information about the ARA San Juan technical failures.
The argentine media just published information “filtered” from the navy that the real issue reported by the ARA San Juan was failures with the snorkel that were causing the presence of water inside the hull.
@Conq “....vessel was actually cut in half. I don't know whether that was actually necessary,...”
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 04:12 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Yes, that is the only way to accomplish the upgrades. The cutting was specified by the manufacturer. But the shipyard - which had previously been dismantled - did not have the expertise for the cutting and rewelding, so the argies had to do a hurry-up “certification” of some of their personnel. It's unclear at this time whether problems in that area may have contributed to the loss of the boat.
When pageboy mentions the “Pedro Domec” shipyard he's a bit behind the times and anyway it's “Manuel Domecq García.” That was the old name for the yard that the Germans built so that Argentina could assemble submarines from imported parts, in much the same way that Argentina assembles Toyotas from imported parts. Well, the idea of assembling German submarines in Argentina unsurprisingly didn't work out so well, and they didn't get very far. The boats that were partly assembled were abandoned and cannibalised so that other boats might keep working for a while.
Pageboy was also confused earlier in his insistence that the Río Santiago shipyards were a submarine facility. In fact the Río Santiago yards were for merchant marine vessels (and the sailboat Libertad, which Argentina considers a “warship.”)
About ten years ago the old “Manuel Domecq García” shipyard became the Almirante Segundo Storni yard and together with the Tandanor facility, both now comprise the Complejo Industrial Naval Argentino (CINAR). So when you see references to the investigations going on, keep in mind those facilities and names.
@Marti Llazo
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -3The usage of “Pageboy” trying to laugh down my comments is the best proof that you felt bad and had no answers from previous questions of mine.
They are still pending: From where did you get the information you mention in your posts? (Thyssen refusal of using the argentine facilities that were built as part of a technology transfer between the company and the Navy).
I'm sorry “Marti Llazo” but if you discuss with engineers you always will be asked about the source of information. Is part of our profession. Be prepared. In engineering tales and fantasy are not accepted.
Good luck lying !!!
PAGEBOY:
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 05:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Señor profesional ingeniero, where on earth did you get the information that Thyssen approved of any modifications, nor certified the vessel for operation. Consulting with the original manufacturer has nothing to do with actually receiving approval.
Chicureo...learning from an engineer to question facts? Well done.
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Thyssen has currently a very bad relationship with the Argentine Navy and there was a claim settled in CIADI against it. Basically, Thyssen claimed for the profits of the submarines never built in Argentina as committed by contract. Even Angela Merkel discussed this issue with Mauricio Macri in their last meetings both held.
Clearly, I have no SOLID information about the approval of the works carried out in Pedro Domec but Thyssen never made any complaint on this to the public. With this accident its name, and its designs, are somehow at stake. So, it is my understanding that if the works were carried out with the assistance of Thyssen engineers and the company never “took distance” of the works it is because the works had their “green light”.
I had worked with several companies that, in discrepancy with works badly done, were waiting for the first opportunity to “wash their hands”. And they did.
If you read the media press release by Thyssen you won't read a word on any discrepancy with the Argentine “mid-life” maintenance works.
Pageboy:
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 06:27 pm - Link - Report abuse +2We non-engineers that are interested in South American navies waste our leisure time away like reading for example, http://www.elsnorkel.com/2011/09/el-casco-del-s-42-ara-san-juan.html which sometimes reassures us why we're so happy not being born in Argentina.
FACT: Thyssen did NOT approve nor certify any modifications to the submarine.
Im an ex-submariner and unfortunately, in my view, this really doesn't look positive. As its a diesel boat it could in theory sit on the bottom (within limits) if there were a significant failure while it waited for rescue - a nuclear submarine could not do this...but rescue would still be problematic. And in theory, even with a total loss of power, it should be able to blow ballast to surface but dependent on depth would also need some propulsion. Its odd that it has not released its indicator buoys to signal its in distress. And if its in relatively shallow water its odd that no one appeared able to escape if it has in fact sunk - which assumes escape equipment was in order. Almost feels like something catastrophic happened that stopped any sort of signal, releases of the indicator buoys or any sort of escape. Of course, for the benefit of the crew and their family I hope they are found alive and well and until we know otherwise lets hope for the best.
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 06:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +2pageboy, you will note that there is no evidence of any certification by the Thyssen group for the performance of the midlife upgrade. Thyssen did not approve of the work being done in an unqualified facility by unqualified personnel. But that does not mean that Thyssen did not respectfully and confidentially inform the Argentine government of its perceptions of shortcomings in the Argentine facilities. Thyssen is not, after all, part of some third-world sudaca backwater.
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +3If you had ever worked for a professional engineering organisation in negotiations with a company of the calibre as Thyssen, you would understand that such communications as were necessary to describe the Argentine shipyard deficiencies were proprietary in nature and limited to the parties covered by nondisclosure agreements.
However, it is certainly possible that in the coming months, unwise efforts may be made by Argentina to discredit the limited participation by Thyssen in the upgrade, and in such a case the substance of heretofore proprietary communications may be disclosed and even made public as a result is legal discovery. Or there may simply be “leaks” from one party or another which would likely not prove flattering to Kirchnerist Argentina.
Given Argentina's widely believed negligence in the upgrade work, and the already known deficiencies of the Argentine shipyards and personnel, it may not be in Argentina's best interest to incur the further wrath of Thyssen. On the other hand, if it can be shown that the Kirchnerist government significantly contributed to the negligence, the present government may feel the need to expose that sort of dirty laundry.
The smart money is betting on the revelations of Argentina's considerable negligence.
Pageboy
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 08:06 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Go back to your sandbox and play with your Kirchnerist dolls.
Your arguments have become too pathetic to correct.
Pageboy “ ....Clearly, I have no SOLID information about the approval of the works carried out in Pedro Domec ...”
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 10:09 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Pageboy, try to understand this, de una vez por todas: “Pedro Domec” (actually Pedro Domecq) is a winery in Spain. We think you are trying to refer to the “Astillero Ministro Manuel Domecq García” which closed in the beginning of the 1990s. Until that time, the German Thyssen company had been a stockholder and assured that the facility met required quality standards.
The old name has not been used for about ten years. In about 2008 the facility was renamed “Almirante Segundo Storni” but the earlier facility quality certification held (when Thyssen was a stockholder) was lost and never regained.
Real engineers would understand such things.
http://www.perfil.com/sociedad/jueza-que-investiga-la-desaparicion-del-submarino-hay-informacion-sensible-bajo-secreto-de-estado.phtml
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 12:21 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Yes, pageboy, it's a state secret to use the proper name for the shipyard.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 04:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +1It's a state secret that the upgrade wasn't done properly
It's a state secret that crew members knew about mechanical shortcomings in the boat before it left Tierra del Fuego
It's a state secret that the noise from the explosion that doomed the boat was picked up by US sensors.
What is no secret PAGEBOY is that the enraged Argentine public are now calling the governmental officials some terrible names, including “bastardos, hijo de putas”... Your fantasy of a Argentine “hidden” mission turns out to be referring to covering their arses.. Let's pray for survivors.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argie media reporting (unsurprising) tension between the Macri pink house and the argie navy top brass. Speculation that Macri may dismiss top navy officials over recent submarine events and handling.
Nov 24th, 2017 - 02:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“La Casa Rosada evalúa cambiar la cúpula de la Armada”
Discussion of perceived negligence and criticism of the way things were handled.
“En el Gobierno creen que hubo negligencia en el caso y critican cómo manejaron la situación.”
Macri defence ministry reportedly opening some 40 investigations, covering negligence and concealing information:
“El Ministerio de Defensa abrió unos 40 sumarios internos, y fuentes gubernamentales hablan de “negligencia” e información “ocultada” por la Armada en relación con hechos del submarino.”
The Hunt for Red November.
I am no Engineer bout coming from a seafaring family I have followed this daily hoping for a positive outcome. What I am unsure about is this report of an explosive noise that has been attributed as potentially from this vessel, if this is the case would all the aircraft/vessels currently searching the area not have spotted oil,diesel,wreckage,flotation devices also if this explosion occurred is of not possible that the sub launched its torpedo's to help with ballast?
Nov 24th, 2017 - 03:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@TomoHull - the sea conditions around the position of explosion have been rather rough and spotting debris could be difficult, if there were any debris to spot. And it is unknown whether the hull may have been compromised sufficiently to allow the escape of significant debris. So far also no reports of observation of the dye marker that the San Juan was said to be carrying. The EPIRB the boat was presumed to be carrying evidently required operator deployment and that might not have been possible given the apparent explosion condition.
Nov 24th, 2017 - 10:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In today's press conference the argie navy indicated that the depths in the search area range from 200 to 1000 metres.
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