MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Macri promises the truth about what happened with the missing submarine
President Mauricio Macri on Friday ordered an inquiry to ‘know the truth’ about what happened to Argentina's missing submarine, ARA San Juan, which disappeared with the loss of its 44 crew. The 34-year-old submarine had gone through a refit and was ‘in perfect condition,’ Macri told reporters at the Argentine navy headquarters. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment ruleswas ‘in perfect condition,’
Nov 25th, 2017 - 09:45 am - Link - Report abuse +5It would seem not.
i'm truly sorry to say that this tragedy and the aftermath is more evidence that Argentina, sadly, is nothing more than a third world country!
Nov 25th, 2017 - 11:12 am - Link - Report abuse +5As you said Clyde, it was not in 'perfect' condition, and any politician worth their salt wouldn't make such claims (even if they truly believed them). They would make vague statements about how this would be investigated, with no stone left unturned.
Nov 25th, 2017 - 11:12 am - Link - Report abuse +7What will Macri do and say when it is discovered that the San Juan wasn't in 'perfect' condition, and was in fact not seaworthy and should never have been allowed out to sea...especially anything that was deeper than it could cope with?
This statement will come back to haunt him, unless, of course he's hoping that it will all blow over...which is doubtful. This isn't a ship sinking in port with no loss of life, this is 44 Argentine sailors, and their families will never let this go.
I expect, over the next few weeks, that there will be a ramp up in 'malvinas' rhetoric as the government tries to distract the Argentine public from this disaster.
Wrong...get it right... you Falkland Island tourist board sponsored Mercopress blog!!!.....
Nov 25th, 2017 - 01:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -8Pres. Macri has not ordered ,as today, any investigations to start with.
And the reason is because priority is with multinational SAR operations.Once sub is located,crew accounted for, and recovery of hull initiated if possible, then investigations will start.
Regarding the condition of the sub right before incident , it is very early to assess anything yet. So hold your horses for now, before going on again on criticizing argentinian gov. as it is the usual objective of this webpage.
and BTW...Argentina is a third world country because it has lost a sub with 44 sailors?
Want me to list the accidents and loss of lives of the Royal Navy?
“ I expect, over the next few weeks, that there will be a ramp up in 'malvinas' rhetoric as the government tries to distract the Argentine public from this disaster.”... Do you have any proof this present goverment has done that in the past to do it again ? Suggest you shut your smelly drain and respect our mourning.
Anyways,We thank UK gov. for providing HMS Protector and MPA based RAF C-130 and joining the international SAR effort , but clearly this is a FIG sponsored, anti argentinian news agency.
Submarine was in perfect condition in much the same way that Santiago Maldonado was an olympic-class champion swimmer.
Nov 25th, 2017 - 01:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Wrong...get it right... .
Nov 25th, 2017 - 01:44 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Pres. Macri has not ordered ,as today, any investigations to start with.
And the reason is because priority is with multinational SAR operations.Once sub is located,crew accounted for, and recovery of hull initiated if possible, then investigations will start.
Regarding the condition of the sub right before incident , it is very early to assess anything yet. So hold your horses for now, before going on again on criticizing argentinian gov. as it is the usual objective of this webpage.
and BTW...Argentina is a third world country because it has lost a sub with 44 sailors?
Want me to list the accidents and loss of lives of the Royal Navy?
“ I expect, over the next few weeks, that there will be a ramp up in 'malvinas' rhetoric as the government tries to distract the Argentine public from this disaster.”... Do you have any proof this present goverment has done that in the past to do it again ? Suggest you shut your smelly drain and respect our mourning.
Anyways,We thank UK gov. for providing HMS Protector and MPA based RAF C-130 and joining the international SAR effort , but clearly this is a FIG sponsored, anti argentinian news agency.
Vernet
Nov 25th, 2017 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +5“clearly this is a FIG sponsored, anti argentinian news agency”.
Don't be ridiculous - if it were as you say then it's reports wouldn't be in such poor English using US spelling - oh, no wait, they're just pretending to use poor English to confuse those of us whose first language is English.
It seems to me that you are the one who is not “respecting your mourning” or you wouldn't be on this “FIG sponsored, anti argentinian news agency” you would be doing something practical to help those families whose lives have been shattered by this event. For instance certainly here and in the UK there would immediately be an organisation set up to collect money for the families to at the very least get them over the worst of the crisis. has anything like that been done in Argentina? Are you going round your neighbourhood collecting door to door?
No you are too busy blaming everyone else - even to the extent of some fecking idiots in Argentina trying to whip up anti-UK hysteria by claiming the sub was attacked by the British military - a theory you no doubt subscribe to.
My heartfelt condolences to the families of these lost souls.
“Eternal Father, strong to save,
Whose arm doth bind the restless wave,
Who bidd’st the mighty ocean deep
Its own appointed limits keep;
O hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!”
Vernet
Nov 25th, 2017 - 02:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +5Argentina was third world before the loss of the submarine - the events surrounding its disappearance of the submarine just confirm that status.
¡Y, para que sepa, no soy de las Islas Falklands!
Vernet
Nov 25th, 2017 - 02:50 pm - Link - Report abuse +2It's not a FIG sponsored news agency, it most certainly is or was a UK sponsored news agency and I wouldn't say the articles are particularly anti Argentine...
They don't write news articles they merely selectively borrow them from other sources...
@fernetito “ Pres. Macri has not ordered ,as today, any investigations to start with.”
Nov 25th, 2017 - 03:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Then perhaps you can explain why the world's media are reporting that Macri's government has opened some 40 investigations into the matter:
“ El Ministerio de Defensa ha abierto unos 40 investigaciones internas y fuentes gubernamentales acusan a la Armada de ”negligencia“ y de haber ocultado información en relación con el trágico suceso...”
“ ....la agencia estatal de noticias Télam informó que el Ministerio de Defensa inició 40 sumarios --investigaciones internas-- a miembros de la Armada para determinar responsabilidades. ...”
Infórmate, fernetito.
Anybody want to make a bet they never recover that submarine?
Nov 25th, 2017 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse +3“Macri promises truth” AND
“was in 'perfect condition' Macri told reporters”
Promises truth and then lies in the same conversation.
This is going to be a big smokescreen operation until no one will ever be able to determine anything, just like in the Nisman case. And the most effective way to accomplish this is to never recover that submarine. Talk about this will come up for the next 20-30 years but not one shred of new information.
No lower liar than one promising truth and honesty.
Vernet
Nov 25th, 2017 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +6Your comment on 18 November :-
International operation to rescue Argentine submarine lost in the South Atlantic
“With our deployed resources and with the help of our international south atlantic friends we will bring safe those sailors back home,which is the only thing I care about”
Do you still stand by your statement ?
Oscar Aguad, Argentine defence minister, confirmed on Friday that internal investigations had begun,
Magistrate Marta Yanez has already begun preliminary investigations into the disaster.
Seems to contradict what you affirm.
“the ARA San Juan was sailing from Ushuaia to Mar del Plata when it disappeared with 44 crewmembers on board, including 35-year-old weapons officer Eliana Krawczyk, who is the country's first female submariner.”
Ms Krawczyk's brother has since revealed that she called the family before they set off and told them there was a mechanical problem.
This seems to indicate that all was not well.
I checked on R.N. Submarine losses to save you the bother.
HMS Sidon 16 June 1955 Sank in Portland Harbour after torpedo explosion in tube.
12 fatalities 62 years ago
HMS Artemis 1 July 1971 Sank in Portsmouth Harbour. No fatalities
No further sinkings in 46 years..
To think that anyone here is enjoying the sinking and deaths of the crew just shows how perverse you are !
@Voice
Nov 25th, 2017 - 05:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Why do you think it's sponsored by the UK rather than the FIG? The FIG seems more likely to me, or that Falklands charity you mentioned before. It's hard to imagine the UK government bothering.
It seems more anti Kirchnerist than anti Argentine, but that might just be a symptom of borrowing articles from Clarin.
There is no need for any sort of dedicated “anti argentine” media. The country's considerable foibles and self-destructive nature are clearly demonstrated in the wealth of information supplied by its own major news outlets and the relative freedom of expression enjoyed by those using alternative media mechanisms (some of which are laughable, but some are worth following).
Nov 25th, 2017 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +7One of the evolving stories here now seems to be the appearance of a technological competition between the Russian Federation and the US Navy, for “who can find the lost submarine.” I'm tempted to drive up to Comodoro to get a look at what's unfolding.
“‘in perfect condition”
Nov 25th, 2017 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse +2I'm sure that's what the Navy told Macri. That is, when he demanded to know what was going on, since the Defense minister found out two days after the incident in his morning paper. When Macri took over, he sacked and replaced the head of the Navy. He replaced him with Srur, who was Commander of Training and Recruiting under La Asesina. Sounds like a political officer to me...
I've been corresponding with a retired Argentine naval officer friend who tells me that there is an outrage in the navy due to the manner this whole disaster has been poorly handled by the admiralty. Morale was nearly destroyed by the Kirchnerist government and this latest debacle only has made it far worse.
Nov 25th, 2017 - 08:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +7@fernetito “ Pres. Macri has not ordered ,as today, any investigations to start with.”
Nov 25th, 2017 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse +6More news outlets here are reporting on what fernetito seems unable to grasp, about the ongoing investigations:
“...ese sumario va a determinar son los grados de responsabilidades e incumplimientos de cadena de mando”, señalaron desde el seno del Ejecutivo de Mauricio Macri cuando se cumplen nueve días desde que desapareció el sumergible en aguas del Atlántico Sur con 44 tripulantes a bordo.En el sumario se investiga a alrededor de 40 implicados o “sumariados” y, entre otros aspectos, pretende determinar por qué desde la Armada no se dio la información “en tiempo y forma” al presidente...”
Media in Spain (and elsewhere) publishing rumours of a coming “purge” of top argie navy officials:
“Macri prepara una purga en la cúpula de la Armada”
And in what has to be classic argentinismo, a Peronist bloc in the congress wants to investigate Macri's defence minister on the matter of this lost submarine.
“El peronismo pidió interpelar al ministro Aguad por la desaparición del submarino”
Cada vez más republica bananera.
Before this is all over, Argentina will be begging the Bolivians to show them how to run a navy.
I fail to understand posters’ instinctual, and frankly offensive, condemnation of ‘anything Argentine’. It is as if all here cannot wait to ‘jump on other’s graves’, and gleefully criticize and demean the serious work of a concerned and dedicated government, rather than provide any meaningful objective assessment of the situation. Very unbecoming, and very unhelpful. Perhaps a few examples will shame fellow posters to provide an apology:
Nov 25th, 2017 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +2- “show them how to run a navy”, implies disdain and contempt for the hard SAR work by all concerned
- “sadly, Argentina, is nothing more than a third world nation”, a dismissive, “us vs. them” statement
President Macri is a serious, objective, informed, and caring political leader. His coalition is focused on ratifying a sweeping array of transformative market-based policies that will enhance institutional transparency and provide real opportunity for millions of Argentines. The administration is acting responsibly, and transparently. If the Argentine Armada has acted irresponsibly by withholding information from the administration (and the public) and failed to properly audit the ARA San Juan’s refit, then this will be revealed in the investigation announced by President Macri. Petty and hateful trolling provide no help to the situation. Frankly, shameful...
There is truth in what you say BUT it is a two way street. You could say it is a reaction to Trolls who continually insult and try to to belittle the Falkland islanders and the UK.
Nov 25th, 2017 - 09:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Turnips, Pirates and Inbreeds are terms used frequently.
The Argentine govt. under Ms.K. continually lied about nuclear bases in the Falklands, missile silos, forces based to attack Argentina etc. Whipping up anti-British sentiment wherever they could.
One of your politicians has said that the British may have sunk the sub. and is demanding an enquiry and is bringing it up at Mercosur.
With this feeling, it may not be surprising that strong words are being bandied about.
Our experience with Argentina has not been a very pleasant one, from 1982 onwards.
Our feeling is that they are just biding their time. They rename the town of Stanley, declare that they are the rightful administration of the islands and generally interfere when they can.
Remember, the few posters with UK credentials on here know little about Argentina and base their knowledge of the country by the Argentinian Trolls who post here, who in the main, espouse hate .
@javier “.... implies disdain and contempt for the hard SAR work by all concerned”
Nov 25th, 2017 - 10:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +3If you had been following events, you would understand that the “hard SAR work” is being performed primarily by non-argentine assets, or rather, those assets which have the greatest technical capabilities to engage in this search in any sort of successful manner are from countries other than Argentina. Do you really think that an Argentine unit will find this submarine? Of course not. That's why the Big Dogs are here now.
Just sending vessels into an area where they have no useful sensors other than the ojimetros is more public relations than SAR. And why is this? Because Argentine assets for these purposes have been allowed to decay and fall into non-operational status, while an inflated national ego called for a Big Fooking Offensive Submarine. Thus it is quite reasonable as well as morally justifiable to remind the readership of Argentina's continuing slide into irresponsible behaviour. In this case, spending millions on half-arsed repairs to wholly unneeded offensive attack submarines, while allowing search and rescue resources to essentially disappear. If you had ever been to Argentina you would see this sort of thing as a daily feature of life here. If you had ever been to Argentina you would understand why it cannot be considered a serious and responsible nation.
@ Darragh
Nov 26th, 2017 - 05:31 am - Link - Report abuse +4“Eternal Father, strong to save,
Whose arm doth bind the restless wave,
Who bidd’st the mighty ocean deep
Its own appointed limits keep;
O hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!”
Amen
@ javiernyc
Not sure if you understand my post above. I agree with you about Macri, no question about it. But my point is he removed the heads of the services and replaced them with existing commanders in the hierarchy. Reasonable enough, he is not Stalin and did not engage in a “Tukhachevsky” purge after La Asesina left office. However the man he chose was La Asesina's Commander of Training and Recruiting. Again, a reasonable person would think that after the gutting of the force by the Kirchners, this would be just what the navy needed. But the kicker is, that as La Asesina's creature, he was basically the “Commander of Brainwash and Mind Control.” It appears now that his actions (and inactions,) have been aimed at discrediting Macri's government. The hiding of information by Srur from the Defense Minister, the false reports of detection of the ship, this smacks of the kind of political shenanigans the Narcokleptocrat supporters have been engaging in lately with the Santiago Maldonado case. It is clear a more widespread cleansing is needed, and this cannot be for the good of the service as a whole. None of this is good news, but I truly hope that Macri can use it for a turn for the better. Those 44 patriots died literally abysmally, but if it means the end of K institutional corruption in the armed forces, I hope it will not be for nought.
javiernyc
Nov 26th, 2017 - 06:14 am - Link - Report abuse +4Agree with you about Macri.
He is being undermined by the Peronists and the legacies of the previous government, and even his own officials in the navy.
However, there is still anti-Falkland rhetoric sanctioned by elements of his government.
Shameful.
No wonder people are still resentful and suspicious, at times.
Some times I think that we need to step back for a moment and reflect on the power of nature.
Nov 26th, 2017 - 12:09 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I think the hymn mentioned a number of times in comments on this article would be a good focus point for our contemplation.“ Eternal Father.” I don't post often enough to know if this will accept youtube links. But here goes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDjwUzUnNpU
The details of the widely suspected Kirchnerist government “ irregularities” in the upgrading of the submarine are evidently coming to light. That includes steering work to dubious providers, evidence of failures to meet work standards, expired-date materials, pigeon-holed investigations, etc
Nov 26th, 2017 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +4“ Submarino ARA San Juan: un informe de Defensa sostiene que hubo irregularidades en la reparación de media vida. ”
https://www.clarin.com/politica/submarino-ara-san-juan-informe-defensa-sostiene-irregularidades-reparacion-media-vida_0_HkXLCXulf.html
“ .....una investigación realizada por expertos de Defensa entre 2015 y 2016 concluyó que la Armada habría incumplido ”estándares normativos y operativos“ para llevar a cabo la reparación y el recambio de baterías del sumergible, y que en ese proceso ”se buscó direccionar la compra de suministros para beneficiar a ciertos proveedores“ y ”se habrían adquirido insumos con garantías vencidas“.
Perhaps the summary should read ”Kirchnerism sunk the submarine.”
Actually it should read...the present Government allowed there fleet to operate without bothering to check if they were up to standard...
Nov 26th, 2017 - 04:50 pm - Link - Report abuse -6I never assume just because a motorcycle has a current MOT that it is actually fit to ride at speeds over a ton...
I go over it with a fine tooth comb...
their
Nov 26th, 2017 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“their” Yes his grammar and spelling is often suspect. An arch pedant and dangerous idiot on the roads too.
Nov 26th, 2017 - 06:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +4An old fart like you will never have been on a track day I suspect...
Nov 26th, 2017 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse -5Suspect???...There is one thing for certain, a “degreeless” idiot like yourself would never know...
From one old fart to another! How much cement do you put on a trowel? Are you Chartered, were you a director of a major company? Knobs like you never make it...
Nov 26th, 2017 - 07:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Been around Brands Hatch a few times, we do it every year. So boring.... Makes the numpties wet themselves though.
Have either of you tried drag racing?
Nov 26th, 2017 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse -5And why d'you go to Brands Hatch if it's boring, TV?
Marti:
Nov 26th, 2017 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Thyssen a country that can't keep their MRI-CAT SCAN equipment functioning in their hospitals, it becomes apparent that they have no business radically modifying German submarines without Thyssen's approval. (Few countries in the world have this capacity anyway.)
“El documento advierte sobre posibles maniobras fraudulentas en la compra de las baterías.” Sentence from the Clarin article you linked pretty much sums up the central problem suspected, but if you watch the video of CFK crowing about all the complexities of the submarine mid-life upgrade, it's easy to conclude ”Kirchnerism sunk the submarine.”
Watching the Argentine media here in Chile, you see the press becoming more skeptical of what their being officially being told.
Clarin will follow whatever leads they have to expose Cristina for what she really is.
Macri promises the truth?
Nov 26th, 2017 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse +2President Macri, Argentine Congress 1 March 2017
''Next year Argentina will host the G20, one of the most important forums in the world.
This is the way to advance our interests, including our legitimate claim for the Falkland Islands, Georgias and South Sandwich.
Dialogue strengthens our position and allows us to come closer to finding a definitive solution to this prolonged dispute.''
My apologies, what I meant to write in my earlier post was: In a country that can't keep their MRI-CAT SCAN equipment functioning in their hospitals...
Nov 26th, 2017 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +3DT when you have done it so many times it becomes boring. When I was an apprentice we built 7 specials with highly souped up Austin 7 engines and raced them at Brands and Silverstone. Our most successful one had its engine turned on its side to lower the profile of the car which meant constructing a pressurised lubrication system. Scary machine... Boy racers dont know the half of it.
Nov 26th, 2017 - 09:01 pm - Link - Report abuse +2This article is pretty informative...
Nov 26th, 2017 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2085780-el-submarino-los-errores-y-las-consecuencias
DemonTree
Nov 26th, 2017 - 11:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -5He's doing his Walter Mitty again....what does he take every year...his old Stag...?
Use one of the hire cars...? I'm sure they have a 22 stone limit...he'd be struggling with that...
Drag Racing...never tried it... would be a specialised bike for that...
I can take my regular bike on track days it'll do 0-60 in less than 3 seconds...you would need a Ferrari to match that...certainly not an Austin 7 engine, he doesn't know what scary is...
Hey fat man...I am still a director of a limited company...keep reminiscing you old has been...
Limited small builder eh Voice...respect! Have you finished MacTavish's chicken shed yet?
Nov 26th, 2017 - 11:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +4...build... less blubber around your midriff...
Nov 27th, 2017 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse -6Lay off the pies...
..hey, put that pie down I said...
...NOW!!
Argie navy whistleblower who reported corruption in the naval shipyards involved in the San Juan repair. Fraud, misuse of funds, the usual. Making the report got him thrown out of the argie navy, of course, and the justice system hushed up his complaints. But that is coming back to haunt somebody now.
Nov 27th, 2017 - 03:19 am - Link - Report abuse +6http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2085989-submarino-ara-san-juan-las-fallas-tecnicas-de-la-armada-tienen-conexion-con-la-corrupcion
Corruption, thy name is Argentina.
@ML
Nov 27th, 2017 - 05:05 am - Link - Report abuse +5I read that one too. Looks like the skeletons are shoving their way out of the closet...
This is bound to turn into a long drawn out scandal. The Argies seem to specialise in dragging things out for years which must be hell for the relatives. Finding it and raising it is going to take a long time and a lot of money. That will drag out the anguish for years.
Nov 27th, 2017 - 11:40 am - Link - Report abuse +4Baldy, how does 5 11 and 14 stone seem? Slightly overweight, but thats quite healthy for an old bloke. You have to ride a bike with a motor, I dont. Hod carrying and laying bricks must keep your paunch in check? ;-)
If there is someone here as an islander in this forum I want to thank you how much you have approached us for this tragedy, this shows that we are all human beings, thank you very much !!!
Nov 27th, 2017 - 01:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +5Marti:
Nov 27th, 2017 - 04:57 pm - Link - Report abuse +3“Las fallas técnicas de la Armada tienen conexión con la corrupción”, determinó un ex suboficial...
The article just confirms what most of us already concluded, but it's saddening never the less. Corruption and murder go hand in hand in this debacle.
I don't refer to her as La Asesina for nothing. Truly sad that patriots have been forced to pay the price for her despicable cupidity...
Nov 27th, 2017 - 05:24 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Hey imoyaro! Go hide. Anywhere. “La Asesina” aka La Yegua o La Conchuda, was just sworn in as new Senator de la Republica! A great moment indeed. Too bad - she is going to catch you now. By the way...how do you call president Macri after two people die and two are injured during police action?
Nov 30th, 2017 - 06:07 am - Link - Report abuse -3@reekie “ ...how do you call president Macri after two people die and two are injured during police action?”
Nov 30th, 2017 - 02:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +11. One criminal suicidal non-swimmer drowns self during crimes
2. One criminal terrorist attacks authorities, gets the expected
Sounds like the present government is doing a little better than the previous one, which murdered prosecutor Nisman and then polluted the crime scene to cover up their crime.
Comrade reekie, attracted to every corrupt and criminal cause, like disease-vector moscones to aromatic bosta.
Since De Vido's loss of congressional immunity and the growing conflict between middle-lane Peronismo and its ugly stepsister Kirchnerismo, La Yegua may have something more to worry about.
Kamerad/Komrade Rique, please be kind enough to provide the crack team of assassins with my name and address. I await their arrival with pleasure. Perhaps you'd like to explain who Roberto López and Javier Chocobar were, indigenous protesters murdered by Kirchnerites? Back on topic, I see you've sobered up from the bender you went on to celebrate the loss of the submarine right after it disappeared. I also see from your picture how delighted you are at the announcement of the death of those sailors. :)
Nov 30th, 2017 - 11:47 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Commenting for this story is now closed.
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