MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
May expresses solidarity to Macri over the missing ARA San Juan submarine
British Prime Minister Theresa May contacted on Tuesday Argentine president Mauricio Macri to express solidarity over the missing submarine ARA San Juan which disappeared on 15 November in the South Atlantic after exchanging messages with its base in Mar del Plata. The news was supplied by the official Argentine news agency, Telam. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesMacri & the Falklands
Dec 13th, 2017 - 10:04 am - Link - Report abuse +1The ambassador in London recalled that back in 1997, Macri was interviewed on the issue and his reply surprised everybody. He minimized the claim and stated, “I never quite understood the sovereignty claims of such as big country as ours. We don't have a space problem such as Israel, for example”.
But apparently he did not stop there: in effect as a pro-business man and faithful to orthodox economics, the heir of an industrial and real estate conglomerate added, “as far as I know it costs quite a bit to the English Treasury to keep the Malvinas Islands” so if they are recovered for Argentina, “Malvinas will become an additional deficit for the country's accounts”.
Good to see that Macri is in the 'now let's move on' brigade.
Dec 13th, 2017 - 10:40 am - Link - Report abuse +2“as far as I know it costs quite a bit to the English Treasury to keep the Malvinas Islands” ...awfull thruth....
Dec 13th, 2017 - 11:38 am - Link - Report abuse -7pageboy, it costs quite a bit for the empty Argentine treasury to pay for that free university education for those thousands of nonresident bolivianos en vuestro país, ¿viste? .... awful truth.
Dec 13th, 2017 - 01:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +5@Marti Llazo
Dec 13th, 2017 - 01:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -3You still owe me some answers:
How old are you?
Where are you from?
Why did you lie when you wrote that you were argentinian?
Still waiting for your clarification.
Marti Llazo has NEVER claimed to be from gaucho land! You are in lala land if you think he has claimed to be an Argentine citizen.
Dec 13th, 2017 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse +2I thought that the “ San Juan ” was diesel/electric, if only batteries where do they charge them. Do they have to call into port and recharge?
Dec 13th, 2017 - 02:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Doh! The batteries get charged by the/a diesel when they are surfaced.
Dec 13th, 2017 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Looking forward to Argieland prospering which will sideline all the Think/Voice/Vestige/EM/BK Peronist puppets and stop all the mythical Malvinas nonsense eventually.
Marti appears to inhabit Southern Chile and certainly knows it and Southern Argentina better than Think etc IMO. As for nationality, who knows, and who cares?
@page-boy
Dec 13th, 2017 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +41. How old am I? I am considerably older than you are, page-boy. And immensely wiser.
2. I never said I was argento. I may have indicated that I was a legal resident in a remote province of Argentistan. I may have indicated that I came to Argentistan more than 30 years ago and I was immensely wise even then. (Gad, it's almost 40 years now). But mere residency does make one argento. Try to read and understand. Since I am not argento then I must be from somewhere else. And that covers all your queries.
@golfista -- As I am sure you know, a diesel-electric boat like the San Juan recharges its batteries by running its diesel engine and associated generators when the boat has access to surface air, either by running on the surface or semi-submerged but with the snorkel clear and capable of intake and exhaust via the atmosphere. In heavy seas the snorkel system may have trouble dealing with significant amounts of spray entering the boat via the intakes, and there is reason to believe that such problems may have contributed to the loss of the boat. But if that class of submarine tried running fully on the surface in those same heavy seas, it would likely be a most uncomfortable ride.
Marti Llazo
Dec 13th, 2017 - 04:32 pm - Link - Report abuse -5You are quite a liar. You wrote that you were from Argentina. Quite a childish boy.!!!!
@pgerman
Dec 13th, 2017 - 05:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +4If he really said that, you can prove it by finding the link. I have never seen him claim to be Argentine. He's implied that he's from Spain, but something else he's said contradicts that. Do you use 'vuestro' in Argentina?
page-boy, you are again quite sadly mistaken. Your memory appears to be as faulty as your comprehension. The considerable degree of your error reminds us once again that you are truly inveterate argentine, or perhaps simply choose to act in such a disreputable manner.
Dec 13th, 2017 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Nor am I, as some have conjectured, either anglo or chileno. Meanwhile, favourable determinations of the courts suggest that I may now be able to visit Singapore, but of course that doesn't help you much, does it, page-boy?
Personally I'm happy to finally see a pragmatic Argentine leader thanking the British PM during this unfortunate disaster. Hopefully the relationship will continue to improve now that CFK no longer is at the helm.
Dec 13th, 2017 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +5PAGEBOY: Your questioning others about their age is a sure sign of your mental immaturity. Marti has already in the past has clearly stated he was not an Argentine, but you continue to pursue another of your “secret” and “hidden” delusions that he has so. I suggest you go back to the sandbox and play with your toys.
Marti fled arrest from Singapore to Argentina and studied in Spain/Catalonia...doesn't like Spain so Catalan...
Dec 13th, 2017 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse -1...maybe...
Catalonia seems to be the only country he likes, and the only one where he doesn't cheer on police (or military) brutality.
Dec 13th, 2017 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Does Argentina allow foreigners to live there for 30 years, work, own property and businesses without applying for citizenship?
Chicureo..., my little Shilean brother...
Dec 13th, 2017 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse +2You are quite right about that Argie Turnip Pgerman...., but...
You should be the last accusing others of pursuing “secret” or “hidden” delusions...
Just look at your own “evaluation” of the cause and reasons of the ARA San Juan destruction...
You need it soooo hard to be the former Argentine Civil Administration's fault...
When FACT is that every IOTA..., from the beginning to the end..., of that submarine's renovation process was under the ABSOLUTE control of the Argentinean Navy...
The EVENTUAL responible of ANY misdoing in this case are..., FOR SURE..., wearing Navy uniforms...
Don't take this personally but..., I suggest you go into the bathtube and play with your rubber ships...
Saludos
El Think...
voicey... Wild speculation but keep it up. It's great theatre. For all you know I could be a buff 32 year old Taiwanese surgeon living in Maui or even a 74 year old retired military ozzie engineer and journalist formerly visiting Iberian Languages faculty at Simon Fraser BC living in Kits but now working the summer season as a fishing guide out of Río Grande. Or none of the above.
Dec 13th, 2017 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +2@Tree ... lo de vuestro es sólo para joder con los pibes.
Doesn't bother me where you are from I was merely stating remembered facts (you being the source) and one guess...
Dec 13th, 2017 - 07:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If you had said you were Argentine...I would have remembered..
Mr. Voice...
Dec 13th, 2017 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't Think Turnip MartiLlazo is Catalan...
Even the most nationalistic of them masters the Spanish language better than him...
Thinking that Turnip MartiLlazo is Catalan only because he has been there and likes the place..., would be as Thinking that Sr. Think is Scottish only because he has been there and likes the place....;-)
It matters not where you originate from, what matters is where your heart is. Its a shame to see a scattering of anti British malcontents posting here living both in Britain and abroad. Our Colonialist past is now history just like Naziism for the vast majority of Germans. What is odious is when one of our number claims that such cults were OK or when hypocrites like Think and Enrique seem to believe its ok for their nation to act as would be conquerers and invaders whilst pointing accusing fingers at Britain and the peaceful Falkland Islsnders.
Dec 13th, 2017 - 07:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Estimado THINK
Dec 13th, 2017 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +5I actually agree that the Argentine admiralty must bear full responsibility for this sad affair and I would include criminal charges when proven.
Saying that, considering all the graft and corruption in military contracts, any responsible civil authorities should also be prosecuted as well. There needs to be a serious investigation of those at fault with compensation to be awarded to the victims survivors.
And yes, the military here in Chile was responsible for the death of 45 of its own soldiers in 2005. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_Antuco
More sadly officers should have been severely punished.
We are in agreement..., milico.
Dec 13th, 2017 - 08:12 pm - Link - Report abuse +2@Think
Dec 13th, 2017 - 08:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There's plenty here who do think you'e Scottish, or at least live there.
@TV
“what matters is where your heart is”
You're right, and it's as obvious that Marti's isn't in Argentina, as that Enrique's is.
Who are you talking about who claims cults (what cults?) are okay?
Lost boats.
Dec 13th, 2017 - 09:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Reports in Argentina trying to blame the Germans for their lost boat.
Note in argie media today that the German company Ferrostaal provided Argentina with testimony that the argie navy elected not to replace the San Juan's batteries with new ones.... as a cost-savings measure....
“La empresa alemana Ferrostaal informó hoy que, ”por motivos de ahorro“, la Armada Argentina decidió no adquirir nuevas baterías sino renovar las celdas de baterías en la reparación de media vida que le realizó al submarino ARA San Juan , entre 2007 y 2014....”
And that the argies did the battery rebuilding themselves. Which likely has something to do with the present circumstances surrounding the lost boat being in pieces at the bottom of the “Argentine Sea.”
Media citing the opinion that the condition of the batteries made the boat not unlike a time-bomb...
'......según los especialistas, el estado de las baterías convertía a la nave en una “bomba de tiempo”. ... '
Mr. DemonTree...
Dec 13th, 2017 - 09:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +3There's plenty here who do think you'e Scottish, or at least live there..., you say...
What a twerpy thought..., I say...
TWIMC...
Please stop ticking me comments up... I have a reputation..., ya know...?
@The Voice
Dec 13th, 2017 - 09:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I know that the diesel engine charges the batteries whilst on the surface. The article states that it is powered by batteries, it did not say that it was a diesel/electric. I was being sarcastic, obviously lost on you.
Plenty of Scottish posters here, disproportional I'd say. As for twerpy thoughts, those frequently espoused by twerps... Tinkle. Remember to get that ticket order in.. Lots of kamarads coming from Skandi
Dec 13th, 2017 - 11:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Disproportional???
Dec 14th, 2017 - 01:17 am - Link - Report abuse -2I can name two with certainty...
I can name two and half with certainty...
Dec 14th, 2017 - 01:33 am - Link - Report abuse -11) Scottish_Kirchnerist...
2) Escoses Doido...
1/2) Clyde15...
;-)))
Haha Mr. Think...I know which one is the half...;-)))
Dec 14th, 2017 - 01:38 am - Link - Report abuse -2...he's a wee Pict I think...
More like a wee Lowlander Campbell Sassenach Pict..., I Think...
Dec 14th, 2017 - 01:49 am - Link - Report abuse -1Oh you meant Clyde I only glanced at the first bit...
Dec 14th, 2017 - 01:59 am - Link - Report abuse -2I meant Escoses Doido...remember the video...the wee man jumping about...;-)))
Escosed Doido ain't no tall Viking..., nooooooo Sir...
Dec 14th, 2017 - 02:05 am - Link - Report abuse -1But every inch of his 5'2” is 100% Scot...
;-)
London Daily Mail 14 December 2017 reports family member of one of the crew of ARA San Juan received Whatsup message from her brother that a British helicopter was tracking the submarine, accompanied by a Chilean submarine, when it was close the Falkland Islands.
Dec 14th, 2017 - 07:09 am - Link - Report abuse +1http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5176095/Missing-submarine-chased-Royal-Navy-Helicopter.html
The myths commence!
The British Ministry of Defence is reported to have denied this claim - OF COURSE!
@Think
Dec 14th, 2017 - 09:27 am - Link - Report abuse -1You didn't name Doveoverdover. Don't you believe in him either?
@gordo1
It says the message was sent days before the sub disappeared, so if it was true the Captain would have informed the Argentine Navy, who then would have known all along, kept it quiet, and still accepted Britain's help in searching for the sub. Seems highly unlikely.
Geeeeeeeee..., boy..., thanks...
Dec 14th, 2017 - 09:43 am - Link - Report abuse -2I had the feeling I was forgeting somebody...
I can name three and a half Scots with certainty...:
1) Scottish_Kirchnerist...
2) Escoses Doido...
3) Cmdr. McDod...
1/2) Clyde15...
;-)))
What about the phantom bald haggis gobbler of Dunoon? Is he a Yank?
Dec 14th, 2017 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0If I could hear their accents then I'd know, but it's pretty hard to tell Scottish from English online. I'm sure about Clyde15, anyway.
Dec 14th, 2017 - 01:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Voice doesn't sound like an American to me, and that is not hard to tell, even online.
Four isn't disproportionate, anyway.
@Voice
Out of curiosity, which two were you sure about?
DemonTree
Dec 14th, 2017 - 02:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Absolutely positive about Escoses Doido and Clyde...
I've never engaged BK and DOD in a conversation and they have never given any specific details about themselves for me to form an opinion, so not included...
Pffffffft....
Dec 14th, 2017 - 02:57 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Scottish income tax changes unveiled - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-42356953
Lost argie boat.
Dec 14th, 2017 - 04:40 pm - Link - Report abuse +4The rumours continue:
“Missing Argentine Submarine Latest: Defense Ministry Denies Royal Navy Helicopter Chased Vessel”
' U.K.'s Ministry of Defense on Tuesday refuted claims that a Royal Navy helicopter was chasing an Argentine submarine when it went missing off the southern coast of Argentina Nov. 15. The claim was made by Jesica Medina, the sister of one of the 44 missing sailors on board the vessel. According to Medina, she had received a “strange” message from her brother, Roberto Daniel Medina, days before the vessel's last known communication, saying that the ARA San Juan submarine traveled close to the Falkland Islands and that a Royal Navy helicopter was trying to track them. “On Monday an English helicopter was looking for us, and yesterday the Chileans, there has been a lot going on,” second sub-officer Roberto Medina told his sister in the message, adding that they were now heading for home. '
Hmmm... obviously painful memories of Argie Sub attacking Grytviken resulting in a helicopter bourne missile through the conning tower made them wary.
Dec 14th, 2017 - 05:01 pm - Link - Report abuse +1@Voice
Dec 14th, 2017 - 05:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sounds reasonable. I haven't spoken to either of them enough to tell either. Neither of them 'sounds' Scottish.
@ML
'An English helicopter was looking for us,' is quite different to being chased by a helicopter. Doesn't imply it found them, no reason ordinary crew members would have seen anything, and could easily have just been a rumour. They were probably feeling nervous snooping around near the Falklands. And ditto a Chilean ship. Were there any Chilean naval vessels in the area at that time? Perhaps Chicureo might know.
It would be a mistake for islanders to believe Macri may “move on” on the Malvinas dossier. Much as he would like to, he's not ready to attempt such political suicide.
Dec 14th, 2017 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You need to understand the islands are so ingrained in our minds, their belonging to Argentina is out of question for Argentines. As a result, different Argentine governments will have different approaches, but the main point will remain for as long as the occupation continues. So take a deep breath; perhaps nothing will happen in your lifetime...
Remember page-boy insisting that there were no investigations underway?
Dec 14th, 2017 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +3“Balbi said a group of navy officials who traveled to Germany in late November to obtain more information about the design of the submarine had returned to Argentina. He said they will submit all documents to a local judge investigating the sub's disappearance.”
More information... about the design of the submarine..... which the argies were planning to assemble all by themselves, without adult supervision?
@EM
Dec 14th, 2017 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Something already happened in many of their lifetimes, I doubt any of them have high hopes of Argentina...
Tell me honestly, do you think CFK would have accepted help from the UK to find the submarine? Would she have let two RAF planes land in Argentina? Or would she be pushing this story about chasing helicopters instead?
DT
Dec 14th, 2017 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse +2I'm no longer in active reserves, so what I know is only what I read in the public media. I would it find it difficult to imagine a Chilean vessel would be tracking an Argentine sub outside our territorial waters.
@Chicureo
Dec 14th, 2017 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Yeah, I didn't think that made much sense. Seems more to reflect the fears of the Argentine navy than anything else.
But it's not so implausible that Britain might have detected the submarine inside the Falklands EEZ and sent a helicopter to look for it, except that they would surely have mentioned it because it could help in the search.
Besides, although they might prefer to be unobserved, there is nothing stopping the sub sailing inside the islands' EEZ, is there? So it's not such a big deal if they did get spotted.
The hydrophones around the FI can pinpoint any invader above or below the waves.
Dec 14th, 2017 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Occupiers EM? From a nation of unwelcome illegal occupiers who committed genocide thats rich.
Do you mean Argentina, or Canada?
Dec 14th, 2017 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse -1DT
Dec 14th, 2017 - 08:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Voice is correct about hydrophones being able to detect an old noisy rebuilt submarine. That's why Chile switched to the much quieter Scorpène which are far more difficult to detect over our two older German boats.
@Chicureo
Dec 14th, 2017 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Maybe you can tell me why you'd send a helicopter out to hunt for a submarine. Wouldn't a ship with sonar that can detect it underwater be better?
DT
Dec 14th, 2017 - 09:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Anti-submarine warfare is commonly utilized by helicopters. They can be deadly effective! I have no idea what is based in the FI at the moment, but a helo would be logical to search for an active submarine. Saying that, I would not be surprised if the commanding officer had used a drill for the crew to maintain silence as they were supposedly being hunted. It would be easy to surmise a sailor commenting about a drill to a relative.
Oh, okay. What stops the submarine diving to lose the helicopter? And can it still be spotted if it's using the snorkel to run the engines?
Dec 14th, 2017 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse -1A drill would make sense, but they'd be told it was just a drill, surely?
I'd say the Arg navy would have told everyone if this was true, but considering what else they have concealed, who knows?
The best thing I could find about what is stationed in the FI was this:
“Until April, two Sea King helicopters were used to undertake air transport and search and rescue missions.
”These duties were taken over by AW189 helicopters flown by AAR Corp in that month, however, after the MoD awarded the company a 10-year, £180 million contract to do so.
“Britain also announced last year that two Chinooks are to be stationed in the Falklands again.”
http://www.forces.net/news/everything-you-need-know-about-british-forces-falklands
Who knows what is actually down there though.
DT
Dec 14th, 2017 - 09:40 pm - Link - Report abuse +1A fully equipped ASW helo can detect and destroy a submarine while at maximum submergence depth.
Regarding this latest cock and bull fable: When I was young, gullible and recently commissioned, I swallowed a story that an Argentine spy had infiltrated the admiralty. Later I learned it was nothing more than another ruthless method of keeping us “on our toes.”
The “ bad guys” for the Argentines to constantly drill against are the British and the Chileans, so it makes sense a commanding officer might tell his sailors to “run silent run deep” as they were being pursued by the bad guys.
Canada has been kind to its First Nation people. Argentinians celebrate genocide on their 100 Peso note. Chalk and Cheese.
Dec 14th, 2017 - 11:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +1@Chicureo
Dec 15th, 2017 - 12:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0That certainly seems plausible. I'd say that we can get the truth from the Arg navy, but honesty doesn't seem to be their strong point.
Did you use to drill against Argentine or Peruvian 'bad guys'?
@TV
Yes, it was so generous how they took all those children from their parents and stuck them in crappy residential schools to turn them into good Canadians:
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/residential-schools/
And they're not doing so well today either, any more than those in Argentina:
* One in four children in First Nation communities live in poverty. That’s almost double the national average.
* Suicide rates among First Nation youth are five to seven times higher than other young non-Aboriginal Canadians.
* The life expectancy of First Nation citizens is five to seven years less than other non-Aboriginal Canadians and infant mortality rates are 1.5 times higher among First Nations.
* Tuberculosis rates among First Nation citizens living on-reserve are 31 times the national average.
* A First Nation youth is more likely to end up in jail than to graduate high school.
* First Nation children, on average, receive 22% less funding for child welfare services than other Canadian children.
* There are almost 600 unresolved cases of missing and murdered Aboriginal women in Canada.
www.afn.ca/uploads/files/factsheets/quality_of_life_final_fe.pdf
DT
Dec 15th, 2017 - 12:42 am - Link - Report abuse +2We extensively studied conflict scenarios especially against Argentina, Peru and Bolivia. And yes... Why would a naval cadet study in the 1980's about Bolivia at war with us...?
We were drilled in the signals corps to be vigilant, suspicious and paranoid against unknown agents. So I can easily imagine Argentines being drilled into paranoia.
Poor Bolivia. I heard they do have a navy, but you'd be unlikely to encounter it. What was your job supposed to be if you had a war with them?
Dec 15th, 2017 - 01:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0DT
Dec 15th, 2017 - 02:40 am - Link - Report abuse +2Signals corps do not really act, they report in triplicate.
In a worse case war scenario, Chile expects Argentina, Peru and Bolivia to act in unison. Just like Argentines believe they will eventually recover the Falklands, Bolivians are brainwashed they'll again border the Pacific Ocean. That's why Chile maintains such a large military.
England will return the Malvinas within 25 years.
Dec 15th, 2017 - 03:09 am - Link - Report abuse -7DT great at Google, how about atrocities in Leics?
Dec 15th, 2017 - 07:35 am - Link - Report abuse -1Mr Macri most probably represents a considerable number of Argentine opinions in his views on the Falkland Islands. However as noted by some above he will find it very difficult to make much serious progress - certainly not in this Government. The only future for peace and co-operation in the SWA relies on the emergence of respect for human rights and Falkland Islanders amongst Argentine politicians - a respect that had previously existed in part, but has been destroyed by the K hegemony.
Dec 15th, 2017 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +2I wish Mr Macri well in making progress in his country and keeping the power crooks and political thugs at bay.
I understand that the Bolivian navy is going to provide instruction in submarine maintenance to the argies.
Dec 15th, 2017 - 03:11 pm - Link - Report abuse +2--
@chicureo “ ...That's why Chile maintains such a large military....”
Including over 40 F-16 aircraft and a large stock of AIM-L Sidewinders of the sort that splashed all those argie aircraft in 1982.
A lot of wisdom in Chile...
Dec 15th, 2017 - 03:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0GALIAmosa
Dec 15th, 2017 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“Mr Macri most probably represents a considerable number of Argentine opinions in his views on the Falkland Islands.”
A close friend of mine, porteño, now very sadly not with us, always used to say that Argentina would not know what to do with the Falklands/Malvinas in the very unlikely event sovereignty was ceded by Britain. First of all, the prevailing weather would put off most of his fellow citizens and, second, the absence of decent restaurants and bars in Stanley would be a problem. He considered that the archipelago would be abandoned by Argentina sooner rather than later and it would be allowed to revert to its original state before discovery.
He was a great joker and an anglophile.
Marti:
Dec 15th, 2017 - 05:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, and we also have an unpublished quantity of the latest generation of Exocet missiles, along with some other very nasty deterrents deployed with our navy. If you google our armed forces, you'll find an enormous impressive collection of armaments, but the real factor is the level of training and maintenance. Cry for Argentina because it will require easily a costly and culturally changing decade for them ever to assemble an effective defense force. In the meantime, they obviously have no business running a submarine force.
@TV
Dec 15th, 2017 - 06:25 pm - Link - Report abuse -5The secret is knowing something about the subject in advance, then it's easier to pick out relevant links.
A lot of people here seem to subscribe to a Hollywood movie version of history, where Britain is the hero and Argentina is the bad guy. I think this is ridiculous. Maybe people can be good or evil, but whole countries can't.
@Chicureo
I meant the navy in general really. Your worst case war scenario sounds really unlikely, but I guess the military are supposed to plan for everything. Did you ever do really unlikely scenarios, like a US invasion or random war with Brazil?
@chicureo
Dec 15th, 2017 - 07:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Apparently there are 24 Block 3 MM40 Exocets delivered to the CL armada, capable of attacking land targets, plus the earlier block deliveries, plus about 8 (?) of the SM39 submarine-launched Exocets. The MM40 Block 3 surface-ship-launched missiles apparently have a range of over 200 km, serve as quite effective cruise missiles, and can be programmed for ToT delivery in coordination with ToT for other weapons. Impressive.
Marti
Dec 15th, 2017 - 08:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +4You are well informed. Peru has also a sizable complement of Exocets for a number of mobile platforms. Unlike Argentina, they're a very dangerous opponent.
DT
Chile has remained, with a few exceptions, a Western oriented neutral country with good relations with most of our Latin neighbors.
My training occurred during the height of the Cold War and we were occupied on how best to support the West, without getting our hands too dirty. Cabo de Hornos and Easter Island were major intel focus points for strategically supporting the USA and the UK. Eastern-bloc nations, especially Cuba, were included in our conflict infiltration scenarios, but Argentina and Peru were our “bad guys.”
We were also very focused on the Ecuador/Peru situation, specifically what other Latin American countries were doing to support the two countries. (Ecuador is an important ally to Chile.) Therefore we carefully monitored anyone assisting Peru.
SA politics, with its unexpected alliances and tensions is complex. Everyone has border issues, neighbours watch each other with suspicion and arm themselves just in case.
Dec 15th, 2017 - 10:19 pm - Link - Report abuse +6I suppose the Falklands issue is just another manifestation of that. It differs in that Argentina has been an aggressive big bully and unwelcome invader. Having been slapped down decisively by Britain a certain substantial section of the population is nursing aggrieved and injured Latin pride. Thats why Argentina is still dangerous, especially as the government can change back to the aggressive K's in a trice. A situation that keeps Chile constantly watchful and on guard - nightmare neighbours.
Voice
Dec 15th, 2017 - 10:53 pm - Link - Report abuse +7“A situation that keeps Chile constantly watchful and on guard - nightmare neighbours.”
I agree with your assessment, except Argentina is no longer dangerous for the next decade or so. Their military forces are lacking in leadership, ill equipped, and without public support to aggressively threaten a Latin neighbor.
CFK was diplomatic venom in our bilateral relations. The woman was not a pleasant entity for us.
@Chicureo “Peru has also a sizable complement of Exocets for a number of mobile platforms. Unlike Argentina, they're a very dangerous opponent.”
Dec 16th, 2017 - 12:12 am - Link - Report abuse +5True. We tend to underestimate them. One of the reasons that CL diplomacy has been quietly friendly with Ecuador in certain areas is that my ”(potential ) enemy's enemy is my friend.” As you are well aware.
I was in Perú briefly in the 1970s, snooping around as I was supposed to, and I noticed that the fellows at the next table were speaking Tovarich. Lots of Soviet influence in those days, and not just external trade links, but technology folks working in the country. A good bit of military materiél from the USSR in Peru in those days, including some things the US technology assessment people wanted to get a closer look at. We eventually made that possible.
Oh my goodness Marti is a secret agent...
Dec 16th, 2017 - 12:30 am - Link - Report abuse -4Nothing secret about it. The means by which it happened is in the open press.
Dec 16th, 2017 - 02:39 am - Link - Report abuse +6Voicey, it's terribly sad that you never did anything interesting or useful with your life.
Marti
Dec 16th, 2017 - 03:27 am - Link - Report abuse +3Because of their armament, a lot of Belarus–Ukraine-Russian technicians are still today busily working with their air and ground forces.
You probably also know that ThyssenKrupp is currently working closely with a Peruvian contractor to upgrade their German built submarines.
DemonTree
Dec 16th, 2017 - 09:23 am - Link - Report abuse +5“A lot of people here seem to subscribe to a Hollywood movie version of history, where Britain is the hero and Argentina is the bad guy. I think this is ridiculous. Maybe people can be good or evil, but whole countries can't.”
Are you aware of the “brain washing” concerning the Falklands/Malvinas to which children from a very early age are submitted in the Argentine educational system?
You seem to be quite an apologist for Argentina's behaviour!
DT
Dec 16th, 2017 - 12:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +2A lot of informed people worldwide do “subscribe that Argentina was the bad guy” during the times of Jorge Rafael Videla and Leopoldo Galtieri...
@gordo1
Dec 16th, 2017 - 01:08 pm - Link - Report abuse -7Do I? I don't intend to be, I just get tired of people bringing up Argentina's attempt at genocide when they so clearly don't care what happens to the indigenous people today.
I am aware of the brain washing, what was your point?
@Chicureo
So do a lot of people think Chile was the bad guy during the time of Pinochet. (Though in both cases their own people suffered the most.)
You did exercises where Argentina was the bad guy, and the Argentine navy did exercises where Chile was the bad guy.
There's plenty of children in different countries who learn that Britain was the bad guy back when we had an empire.
So who is right?
DT, unlike you I have been to Argentina and travelled down the length of the country. I have seen the anti British Malvinas signs everywhere, been admonished by brainwashef nutjobs and after dark seen the crowds of indiginous people gathering up the cardboard and plastic to earn a meagre crust - the Cartoneros, almost 100% Amerindians. They are bottom of the pile and most live in abject poverty in the Villas or on the streets.
Dec 16th, 2017 - 01:35 pm - Link - Report abuse +4You are obviously an expert Googler but you do come over as an apologist especially because you appear to engage in a friendly manner with the most odious anti British trolls here.
Unlike you some of us our proud of our country and its aid and protection tendered to many of the most disadvantaged people on the planet. Congratulations on becoming one of the most unpopular British people that post things here.
DT
Dec 16th, 2017 - 03:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Our military never was involved in planing to invade one of our neighbors.
Meanwhile, the lost boat.
Dec 16th, 2017 - 04:06 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Still no sign of the lost submarine. The argie defence minister is asking for the resignation of the head of the argentine navy:
“ Oscar Aguad desplazó al jefe de la Armada, Marcelo Srur, en medio de la crisis por el submarino. El ministro de Defensa le pidió ayer por la noche el pase a retiro al jefe de la Armada al cumplirse un mes de la tragedia del submarino ARA San Juan, que permanece desaparecido ...”
Congress member calling for investigation into Kirchnerist corruption associated with the argie navy repair of the submarine
“ Carrió denunció a ex ministros de Defensa por ”asociación ilícita.“ Los responsabilizó de hechos de corrupción durante la reparación del ARA San Juan.”
@TV
Dec 16th, 2017 - 04:17 pm - Link - Report abuse -4When I said some posters don't care about the indigenous people, I didn't mean to include you in that, so I'm sorry I didn't make that clear.
I am proud of my country; that's truthfully one of the reasons I started posting here. Because I didn't want anyone reading the comments to think we all agreed with the likes of Conqueror.
I don't believe that anything your 'anti-British trolls' can say reflects half so badly on Britain as what some of the British posters write; and, well... it wasn't Voice who turned out to be the troll with multiple accounts, was it?
I knew when I started posting that my opinions would not be popular here, but I'm not doing it to get upvotes. I want you to see that there are other views and we don't all think alike. If you disagree with something then you are welcome to argue against me, and perhaps you could even do some research first rather than relying on anecdotes.
DT
Dec 16th, 2017 - 05:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“There's plenty of children in different countries who learn that Britain was the bad guy back when we had an empire. So who is right?”
Winston Churchill said it best: “History is written by the victors and I plan on writing my own.”
Hang in there DT, we're not against you.
Hey Marti Bond...
Dec 16th, 2017 - 06:15 pm - Link - Report abuse -2You know nothing about me and my life...what I have and haven't achieved...
Unlike you I don't need to tell tall stories to a faceless audience...how many Walter Mitty's are there on the net...a lot I reckon...
What are the chances we'd have super engineers and secret agents to entertain us with wild stories...
It's only a matter of time before we have a ex-special forces on here too...
Oh dear...only on the internet...
...did I tell you about my time on Tumbledown?..yeah I don't normally talk about it...;-)))
Voicey, you're clearly a mere mote in the eye of the universe, a hapless keyboard warrior, likely never had your hands cold and dirty. Certainly not in public service. Probably dropped out of your attempt to get a sociology degree.
Dec 16th, 2017 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse +2How about my part in the Gallipoli Campaign...did I ever mention that...?
Dec 16th, 2017 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Everyone is a mere mote in the eye of the universe...or do you think you are the centre...?
...you probably do, I reckon...
I'd rather suspect your central part in the Piltdown Forgery, Voicey.
Dec 16th, 2017 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +2@Chicureo
Dec 16th, 2017 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Hey, it's okay. I don't believe Britain is the bad guy, and there's plenty of things that make me proud to be British. But I think we should learn about the bad things too and what lead to them so we can avoid anything similar happening again, and so we can understand other people's points of view.
A while ago I read a comment from an American who went on a school trip to visit an old fort in Canada, where they learned it was built to defend against a US invasion. He said it was the first time he realised that 'sometimes we were the bad guys', and I think that's an important lesson to learn.
@ML
“The argie defence minister is asking for the resignation of the head of the argentine navy: ”
I'm not surprised. They handled it pretty appallingly.
DT
Dec 17th, 2017 - 08:43 pm - Link - Report abuse +5“Oh, okay. What stops the submarine diving to lose the helicopter? And can it still be spotted if it's using the snorkel to run the engines? ”
The helicopter cannot lose the submarine just by diving and can be spotted if its snorkel is raised during battery recharging.
Look at this web site, especially under sensors.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/merlin-asw/
The AW159 Lynx Wildcat is also a potent sub.hunter carried aboard Frigates.
However, I don't know if either of these helicopters are on the Falklands...I would doubt it as they are too valuable to be sitting around unemployed.
THUNK
More like a wee Lowlander Campbell Sassenach Pict..., I Think...
Your trouble is that you don't think !
I always think of you as an Argentinian version of a Troll OR a Giftzwerg
For a start Campbells cannot be Lowlanders. If you knew anything about Scotland you would know that as a fact.
As to Highlander /Lowlander, these are archaic terms hardly used by the Scottish population but in your ignorance, you would not know this. Your only expertise with anything Scottish is at the bottom of a whisky bottle and your historical knowledge is gleaned from shortbread tins.
Clyde to Think,
Dec 17th, 2017 - 10:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“Your only expertise with anything Scottish is at the bottom of a whisky bottle and your historical knowledge is gleaned from shortbread tins.”
PMSL, a classic put down!
Clyde, have a rec +1 and... A Giftzwerg is an individual who rubs people the wrong way - one who is loud, rude and constantly angry. In a word: obnoxious. And Think/Voice now adds even more meaning.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 09:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0Had to look that one up! But I must say totally spot on...
As to the subject of this topic, we'll just have to wait and see, and perhaps we will never know.
DT
Dec 18th, 2017 - 09:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0The helicopter cannot lose the submarine just by diving
I should have said....The SUBMARINE cannot lose the HELICOPTER just by diving.
I was half-way through a bottle of Estevez Chilean Pinot Noir when I typed that and did not check it before I posted.
@Clyde15
Dec 18th, 2017 - 12:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yeah, I guessed. :)
And I kinda doubt they'd have thone helicopters sitting around at Mount Pleasant either. Argentina isn't much of a military threat these days.
Do you think the MOD knows when Argentina is sending its submarines out near the Falklands?
DT
Dec 18th, 2017 - 12:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Let's put it this way, Chile would know if Argentina was operating one of its submarines in our territorial waters.
These subs can't be as easy to find as you make it sound, or the San Juan wouldn't have gone missing in the first place and they'd have found what was left of it by now. So how would Chile know it was there?
Dec 18th, 2017 - 01:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0DT
Dec 18th, 2017 - 01:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +1We pay huge sums of money to run GCHQ. It would be remiss on their part if they were not listening and collecting SIGINT information from all sources.
Submarine departures from Argentina would be well publicised and no doubt there would be intercepted signals from any sub. which would give away their position.
This would make sense although in no way could I know any details of what the procedures would be.
If you Think about it the Falklands with the adjacent Argies make an excellent training ground for the British armed forces, our intelligence services and the efficacy of our satellite surveillance.. Any incursion tests our alertness and armed response.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 02:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +1DemonTree
Dec 18th, 2017 - 04:25 pm - Link - Report abuse +1For an Argentine submarine to enter the Pacific Ocean, it would require to pass through either the Strait of Magellan, the Drake Passage or the Beagle Channel which are all installed with very sophisticated sonar equipment for first detecting, then classifying, locating and tracking a target submarine.
When Captain Joshua Slocumbe took that route to the Pacific whilst sailing alone around the world in 1899 he was chased by Indians in Canoes. So he could get some sleep he covered the decks of the Spray with tin tacks which got the Indian boarders hopping about yelling ouch in Mapuche and allowed him to get quickly on deck with his 12 gage.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 05:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +2These days, with more modern alert mechanisms, nothing much has changed ;-)
“We pay huge sums of money to run GCHQ. It would be remiss on their part if they were not listening and collecting SIGINT information from all sources.”
Dec 18th, 2017 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse -2That's what I was thinking of. Britain doesn't have the luxury of a straight between us and the Argentine navy so couldn't detect it that way. Would it give the MOD enough warning to get a helicopter down there if they wanted to, though? It sounds like TV supports the idea we might have sent a helicopter to look for the submarine, as it's a good training opportunity. ;)
In view of the tragic events the have evidently taken place, not really.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 05:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +2But since the Argie Navy is being reduced to Canoes I think it would be a good idea to equip all HM ships with a good supply of tin tacks
Demon Tree
Dec 18th, 2017 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Given the fury of nature in the extreme South Atlantic I would not like to be a crew member of a helicopter in that area especially if its route took it far from land and rescue in the event of an accident.
DT
Dec 18th, 2017 - 06:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Its no secret that the Falklands seabed area is well covered with ASW sonar that is far superior to what Chile has.
TV
Dec 18th, 2017 - 06:19 pm - Link - Report abuse +2No helicopter could fly to the Falklands. It would have to be airlifted in a C-17 or Atlas unless we had a frigate close bye
At present any Argentine sub. is of no threat to the Falklands so basically we would not bother.
Our coast guard helicopters fly from Stornoway out as far as St.Kilda to rescue crews in sinking or disabled vessels. The weather out there is as bad as you get in the S.Atlantic.
Winds over 100 mph are common as are mountainous seas and driving horizontal rain.
So to sum up, the forces at MP may well have known the submarine was in the area, and might have wanted to hunt for it as a training exercise or just to keep an eye on it, but probably didn't have the right helicopter to do so.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse -2And there's no real reason for them to lie about it when it could have been useful information for the search.
Does that seem fair?
No, the sub was in another area far north of the Falklands when it got into trouble. It may have passed the Falklands on its way North, but I dont believe that even the Argentinians would have diverted attention from an area where it may have sunk and been rescued just to avoid a diplomatic embarrasment.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 07:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Helicopters are a red herring...
These messages about the helicopter and Chilean ship were reportedly received several days before the sub disappeared, so it could have been near the Falklands at the time, but far to the north (and of no further interest to the UK) when it sank.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 07:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -2However, if there was a helicopter the Arg navy must have known all along and be covering it up; why on earth would they?
Fortunately we don't have pageboy continuing his wild ignorant ideas of a secret and hidden submarine mission. What has clearly been revealed is that the submarine was on a predetermined voyage and the Argentine admiralty was not willing to share facts promptly.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 07:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +2It's a red herring, everyone knows that Argentine media will put out misinformation so as to deflect attention away from the main fault, in that the submarine was not considered sea worthy.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 11:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Chilean submarine detection must be far in advance of Swedish detection...
Dec 19th, 2017 - 12:45 am - Link - Report abuse -2“The Kremlin had ridiculed the Swedish Navy’s futile efforts trying to locate a suspected submarine off the coast of Stockholm, the capital, last fall. Last week the long-anticipated report on the intruder arrived: “beyond every reasonable doubt” it was a submarine, the Swedish Armed Forces reported.”
If submarines were easy to detect...there would be no point in having them...let alone consigning a world powers only nuclear defence to them...
Voice
Dec 19th, 2017 - 01:57 am - Link - Report abuse +2You miss the point. The Swedes knew they had a Russian submarine off their coast but could not exactly locate its position. Russians have a sophisticated number of sonar evasive and detection systems that even sometimes mystify the USA.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a28724/submarine-sonar-soks/
pgerman
Dec 19th, 2017 - 11:44 am - Link - Report abuse -1“as far as I know it costs quite a bit to the English Treasury to keep the Malvinas Islands” ...awfull thruth….”
It costs Argentina more than the UK in their conflict according to Carlos Escudé. He warned: “If Argentina had power, I would not be doing these proposals,” but reasoned that “pursue policies of power without power is counterproductive” because “leads to losing more than you earn systematically”
“La reivindicación argentina de Malvinas solo sirve para comprar el voto de ciudadanos poco educados”
h ttp://www.infobae.com/2014/11/10/1607855-la-reivindicacion-argentina-malvinas-solo-sirve-comprar-el-voto-ciudadanos-poco-educados
Falklands War Cost-Benefit Analysis
The price of War
”Although the Falklands War had a very noticeable short-term impact on defence expenditure, the impact was not long-lasting. Notwithstanding the first few years after the conflict, when South Atlantic expenditure was greatly consumed by the construction of RAF Mount Pleasant (operational from 1986), the amount spent wasn't overly significant. In 1986-7, it was only 2.23% of total defence expenditure, and by 1989-90, a mere 0.33%. At their height (1982-3), the war's effects represented only 6.76% of total defence expenditure.
http://nikdarlington.blogspot.com.br/2010/05/falklands-war-cost-benefit-analysis.html
A couple of years ago, an USN P-3 was based at Prestwick with the belly carrying what looked like a huge canoe. We found out later that this was an airborne laser. The aircraft was carrying out experiments with a sub. from Faslane during one of the regular Joint Warrior exercises. The P-3 was using its laser to pick up the underwater wake of the submarine.
Dec 19th, 2017 - 11:50 am - Link - Report abuse +2The aircraft was seen regularly off Skye in an area where our subs. are tested.
It was flying in race track patterns for hours and then returning to Prestwick.
The info. on this came from some military publications. Whether or not it was a success, I have no idea.
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