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Falklands: Brexit and Argentina's plan for closer links with the Islands

Friday, October 26th 2018 - 08:48 UTC
Full article 30 comments

Brexit brings a chance to strengthen ties between Argentina and the Falkland Islands, the country's foreign minister Jorge Faurie said in London. Faurie met with Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt and the pair discussed increasing trade and travel links between the Falkland Islands and South America. Read full article

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  • Brit Bob

    Meanwhile - ''Argentina will exploit a no-deal Brexit to 'enhance' its claims to Falklands, says its foreign minister'' (Daily Telegraph 26 October 18)

    Argentina's claim is based on 'usurpation' (nonsense as it was lawful to steal territory in the 19th century - known as 'conquest' outlawed in 1928, some say 1945). And inheritance from Spain under uti possidetis juris.

    To believe that the Falkland Islands and the territories in the Southern Ocean belong to Argentina because of the inheritance is incorrect. Falklands – Argentina's Inheritance Problem (1 pg): https://www.academia.edu/35194694/Falklands_Argentinas_Inheritance_Problem

    Oct 26th, 2018 - 09:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    It'll be Christmas presents next - mark my words :-)

    Oct 26th, 2018 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • The Voice

    Little and large!

    Oct 26th, 2018 - 01:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marc1

    Laurel and Hardy!

    Oct 26th, 2018 - 04:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Really, it's ironic how the Brexiters have screwed the Falklands and Gibraltar...

    Oct 26th, 2018 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    Screwed? Surely you don't believe everything you read in the newspapers DT? Some Falklanders back Brexit.

    Oct 26th, 2018 - 10:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • The Voice

    DT believes the tiny minority should rule the interests of the vast majority. Both colonies will be looked after…

    DT is a Greenie https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/british-political-clan-test-research-uk-general-election-right-wing-left-bmg-a8599586.html

    Oct 26th, 2018 - 10:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    After Brexit the UK is not going to be in a position to alienate vast trading markets...
    I can see a sell out on the Horizon...hearts and minds they call it...

    Oct 26th, 2018 - 11:12 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    No, TV, I just think it's funny that people fulminate over Corbyn about the Falklands, go on about how they're willing to spend millions to defend them, and then vote to give them the shaft. Actions speak louder than words.

    @Voice
    Exactly.

    Oct 26th, 2018 - 11:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    If Europe wont take the Falklands' squid, then the Asians will. 7.5 billion people in this world. Food will cause the next world war.

    Voice - your eyesight is apparently not so good.

    Oct 26th, 2018 - 11:50 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Voice

    Wouldn't be the first time Roger...
    First time round was Rosa...second time just before the Argentine invasion and this time it will be for the greater good...(UK's good)
    How are the conversations going....“Well obviously we can't give you sovereignty, but direct access that's another matter...”
    My eyesight is 20/20 which means it's average...
    How is yours...I see an apostrophe missing from “won't”...

    Oct 27th, 2018 - 12:01 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Roger Lorton

    Rosa? Would you mean Rosas? And if so, what do you mean?

    Just before the Argentine invasion? There were talks about finding an accommodation. Many ideas were aired although sovereignty was never discussed and those talks did not produce anything. Nothing changed. Nor will it this time. There may be an announcement about flights once TM gets to the G20 but I doubt that it'll outlive Macri's government.

    The greater good? You believe selling a people out is for the UK's greater good? On that basis perhaps we should flog Scotland. That would reduce the whinge factor dramatically in what remained of the UK.

    My eyesight is not so good. Had it been I'd have seen the track of Carcass on the Carrington-Bowles chart when they surveyed Carlisle Sound. I'd have spotted where they anchored in Lafonia, and I've have noticed which mountain the bottle was on - on East Falkland. So you are right - my eyes could be better.

    Oct 27th, 2018 - 12:15 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Voice

    McBride never surveyed East Falkland...he never had time nor the inclination once the map of Berkeley Sound and the location of the settlement was delivered to him by the store ship.....that was all the British were interested in...

    Just what I said Roger it's not the first time it has been suggested to dump the islands...
    House of Commons...

    “I will now conclude the catalogue of the military stations with the Falkland Islands. On that dreary, desolate, and windy spot, where neither corn nor trees can grow, long wisely abandoned by us, we have, since 1841, expended upwards of £35,000;... What I propose to the House is this.... acknowledge the claim of Buenos Ayres...”

    Oct 27th, 2018 - 12:58 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Roger Lorton

    I feel your pain Voice LOL, but Macbride did survey East Falkland. Where do you think the Carrington-Bowles chart came from?

    You listening to backbenchers now? What a confused view of the world you must have.

    1848 - July 25th, Sir William Molesworth, the colonial reformist and radical politician, delivers a long speech in the House of Commons on the subject of colonial expenditure. He details the monies spent on all the colonies and says of the Falkland Islands.

    “I will now conclude the catalogue of the military stations with the Falkland Islands. On that
    dreary, desolate, and windy spot, where neither corn nor trees can grow, long wisely
    abandoned by us, we have, since 1841, expended upwards of £35,000;... What I propose to the House is this.... acknowledge the claim of Buenos Ayres...”

    [Footnote = Widely circulated at the time by the Financial Reform Association, and described as, 'a complete and searching exposure of colonial administration,' Molesworth's proposal was not taken up – either in 1848, or indeed, when he eventually became Secretary of State for the Colonies. Molesworth repeated his speech on June 28, 1849, but then made no mention of the Falklands. It must be noted that his concern was about expenditure, not rights.]

    Do try to get your facts in order Voice ;-)

    Oct 27th, 2018 - 02:15 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Voice

    My facts were right Roger...the Secretary of State for the Colonies proposed to the House of Commons that they should acknowledge the claim of Buenos Ayres...to save money, you can spin it how you like, but it happened...
    Also your eyesight must be terrible...have you ever looked closely at the Carrington-Bowles chart showing McBrides survey...?
    It clearly shows a detailed route that hugged the Eastern side (West Falkland side ) of Carlisle Sound it shows all the depths the whole length of the coast, it does show a little jaunt across the Sound to a bay and then straight back again...there are no other depths or route along the West side of East Falkland that a detailed survey would obviously show...McBride sailed around East Falkland, but did no detailed survey of it...the island he was referring to in the quote was obviously West Falkland and we can see that from the details on that map...Ole Vera and myself are not mistaken...you are... the evidence is there to see...
    I also noticed at Port Howard the depths were also marked right opposite the highest mountain in West Falkland...

    Oct 27th, 2018 - 10:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    He was NOT secretary of state for the colonies when he made that speech.

    “It does show a little jaunt...” You idiocy is shining through again Voicy. Vera was wrong as you are clearly wrong.

    The bottle was on the highest mountain on East Falkland which, because I asked, is easily accessible from the bay that Carcass moored up in. MacBride circumnavigated the archipelago and clearly took soundings around the islands - including within Berkely Sound. Its easy enough to work out even for you - compare the two charts that appeared in 1770 & 1773 following MacBride's survey work with those that had been produced before.

    A wise old sage once said - when in hole stop digging. I heartily recommend that advice to you Voice. You are making yourself look more foolish than usual.

    Oct 27th, 2018 - 11:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    “when he eventually became Secretary of State for the Colonies. Molesworth repeated his speech on June 28, 1849,”
    looks like he did repeat the speech when he was Secretary of State for the Colonies...I've just quoted you...
    The hell it's accessible from that bay...Darwin perhaps...otherwise you would need to travel all the way to Darwin cross the isthmus and then into the North Island to reach that Mountain at least thirty miles...
    Explain why it shows no survey of depths along the West coast of East Falkland which according to you was the coast he was surveying...
    psst....he wasn't, the route is a stone's throw off West Falkland right the way the whole length of it all depths are marked...
    It is there clearly for anyone to see if they look at the map...
    https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/cropped-1766-bowles-published-1770.png?w=625
    You are the foolish one McBride did such a good survey of East Falkland that he completely missed the settlement in Berkeley Sound...;-)))
    Although he did find it when he was supplied with a map of it and only then...

    Oct 27th, 2018 - 11:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    Molesworth was 'eventually' appointed Colonial Secretary in 1855. Try Google.

    As for the rest:

    a) I asked the locals. They confirm that its an easy trek even today. Do you know better then them?

    b) Did I mention the chart published in 1773? I'm sure that I did. It has the soundings around the eastern side of East Falkland. Why Carrington-Bowles didn't include them I don't know.

    c) MacBride sent a survey team into Berkeley Sound on December 2, 1766. They spotted the French settlement which MacBride inspected on December 6, 1766. There was an exchange over sovereignty and, according to rumour, they all then settled down for a few drinks.

    Clearly, you do not know enough for this debate so I'll leave you to your cups.

    Do try to get your facts straight in future. I'm starting to feel sorry for you, and that just won't do.

    ;-)

    Oct 27th, 2018 - 11:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    That mount is not easy to get to period...not without a lot of walking...
    https://www.summitpost.org/mt-usborne/605212
    McBride sent a survey into Berkeley Sound AFTER he had been provided with a map of where the settlement was...
    What 1773 map with soundings on the West side of East Falkland there isn't one in your blog...
    Your facts appear to be seriously lacking Roger...
    Do I have to give you the quote of how McBride discovered the settlement after he was given a map...? He sent some officer up a hill overlooking the settlement are you confusing hills...?
    you are just inventing facts and maps that don't exist...

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 12:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    a) a “lot of walking” is what surveying involves.

    b) what map do you believe that MacBride was provided with, by who and when?

    c) Your 20:20 vision must be failing - Macbride's survey was 1766. Hawkesworth's book was published 1773.

    d) Yes, I'd like to see that map that MacBride was given

    c) no, I'm quite clear as to my hills, there are a few - many of which MacBride sent surveyor's ( I suggest you read my words carefully)

    d) now you're waffling

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 01:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    “On November the twenty-fifth, 1766, a survey party discovered on the highest mountain in the West Island'55 a bottle containing a paper bearing evidence of the French in that part of the island in the early part of 1765.
    ”The storeship with the admiralty map of the Bay of Acaron had already arrived when this party returned to Port Egmont, and with its assistance an expedition to the east revealed the French settlement on December the third .“

    54 S. P. Spain, supplementary. 253. Stephens to McBride, 17 Mar ”My Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty having received a copy of the plan
of the Bay of Acaron situated at the East end of the Malouine Islands (supposed
to be Falklands' Isles) where M. de Bougainville made a settlement iii the year
1764. . . . I send herewith a copy for your information and use.

    S. P. Spain, supplementary. 253. McBride to Stephens, 21 March, 1767. “I anchored in Pembroke Sound the 2nd December, in the evening. The next morning I sent an officer upon the top of a mountain that overlooked Berkeley's Sound; who returned at noon, with an account that he had discovered the French settlement. I sailed in the evening from Pembroke Sound and next day anchored in Berkeley's Sound 4 miles short of the French settlement”

    Show me the map Roger that has soundings along the West side of East Falkland made by McBride...
    Am I really waffling or is it that you don't apparently know shit...
    Is there anything else you would like to know about McBride...?

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 01:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    You are you quoting Voice?

    I said that MacBride sent a survey party into Berkeley Sound on Dec 2, 1766. I did,'t say that they stayed in the boats. Mary Cawkell also says that they went ashore and climbed a hil. As I said - read my words carefully.

    The chart is on the website - clear enough with anyone who has 20:20 vision. A map of Acaron Bay is also there, but there was no information as to where that bay was.

    https://falklandstimeline.wordpress.com/charts/

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 01:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    huh...Acaron Bay is Berkeley Sound...
    I thought it fairly obvious that I am quoting Stephens...he was the one that sent it...

    There is no chart on your link that shows soundings on the East side of Carlisle Sound...only on the West side...
    Which map is it...?

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 01:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    Nope, you are quoting Vera again who cites the correspondence. The French map of Acaron Bay was by Pernetty who had accompanied Bougainville's original expedition.

    Underneath the map it says - “MacBride’s 1766 survey detail 1. Chart reproduced in Hawkesworth’s Voyages vol.1 1773”

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 01:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    That map is not showing the detailed soundings on the Carrington-Bowles chart that is clearly showing detailed soundings and the route of the survey...
    That map is just showing the amount of soundings that are made on a non detailed route around the whole islands...ships don't blunder through waters without a row boat in front checking the depth...
    Those quotes are from Stephens to McBride clearly mentioning the plan of the Bay and that he was sending it...
    Why don't you do some real research and look at the correspondence between McBride and Stephens and why would you doubt that it was true...?
    Do you think McBride's words to Stephens are also not true about sending an officer to the mountain above the settlement...
    It is obvious that McBride didn't go into Berkeley Sound first because he knew from the map where the settlement was and instead anchored out of sight in Pembroke Sound and sent an officer up the mountain to spy on the settlement to see size and numbers before he confronted them...

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 02:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    Squirming? That chart clearly shows what you asked for although if you check back I had originally indicated that it showed MacBride's survey readings for the EAST side of East Falkland Island - as proof that he had surveyed that island.

    Stephens provided Pernetty's plan which gave no indication of where it actually was and clearly Stephens doubted that it was in the Falklands - as you quoted (“supposed to be Falklands' Isles”).

    I don't doubt that Stephens had sent information in the March - I mention it in the Timeline. The information was not sufficient for the location of the French settlement to be identified however.

    Apparent? Not at all. MacBride had no clear idea where the settlement was before his officer spotted it, which again is in the words you quoted - “... with an account that he had DISCOVERED the French settlement.”

    Why don't you stop relying on Vera Brown? There are many sources. Few of them actually agree. This from Mary Cawkell's 2001 book - ”On 23 November one of these (survey parties) returned with a discovery they had made on a hill in the northern part of East Falkland. This was a bottle...” [Cawkell 2001 p.30]

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 02:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    You are the one squirming there is no map with detailed sounding like those for the West Falkland side... now why do you think that is...?
    Because they didn't do any detailed soundings...
    Are you mad...there are other maps that clearly state that Acaron Bay is Berkeley Sound...
    you have a map on your link that says both names...
    That Acaron Bay map shows clear and detailed soundings and ship routes vital for a ship to navigate safely...
    Funny how McBride anchors on the south side and sends an officer over land to site the settlement which is on the south side...
    You are having a laugh the sources exist the letters between McBride and Stephens exist you just chose to leave them out of your account because it proves they knew the settlement was there all along...
    by the way Roger Stephens was obviously pointing out the fact that it should say Falklands isles NOT Malouine Islands...
    ”plan
 of the Bay of Acaron situated at the East end of the Malouine Islands (supposed
to be Falklands' Isles) ”
    He wasn't trying to say it wasn't the Islands...Duh!

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 02:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    Clear evidence of MacBride surveying Carlisle Sound. Your refusal to accept that is risible.

    Mad? Attempting to get through your befuddled brain may send me that way. MacBride had received the Pernetty plan before the middle of June, and yet he didn't 'discover' the French settlement until December. And why would he use the word 'Discovered' ?

    And no, that's not what Stephens meant and yes, that's exactly what he was trying to say .... Duh!

    There was considerable doubt in London as to whether the islands that Byron had claimed were the same as those reported to have a French settlement.

    “For the first time the Admiralty admitted official knowledge of the French settlement (though they did not officially concede that the Falkland Islands and the Malouines were identical).”

    [Wallis H. Carterets Voyage Round the World, 1766-1769 pub.1965]

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 02:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    Who said he received the plan in June...?
    He received the plan after doing the survey of the West side some time after November 25th...
    The map is dated 1764 they had known the French had a settlement since 1764...
    I just don't understand how you have the cheek to say that others are wrong when all you are relying on is what others have said instead of going to the archives and reading the corresspondence between Stephens and McBride...
    So are you know admitting that Stephens did send the plan to McBride like it states...?
    How do you even know what Stephens meant you seem to have a queer understanding of the English language...
    If I say across the channel Angleterre (supposed to be England) is where Shakespeare lived. Do you think I'm doubting it is England or do you thinking I'm doubting it should be referred to as Angleterre...?
    Duh!

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 03:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    Sorry for the delay - wife insisted.

    Your nonsense grows boring so I'll sum it up as best I can, in the hope that your poor English comprehension will be able to cope.

    1) MacBride arrived in January, 1766 with orders to erect a Fort, lay out a settlement and survey the archipelago which according to the best map available (Frezier's) consisted of one island. MacBride's subsequent survey was sufficient to dispel the one island theory as evidenced by the 1770 & 1773 charts. Particularly good with Carlisle Sound, MacBride circumnavigated the archipelago. So good in fact that the Spanish would copy the 1770 publication in 1773.
    3) March 17 1766, information was sent out to MacBride (“I send herewith a copy...”) about a possible French settlement (”supposed to be Falklands Isles) which would take 3 to 4 months journey time assuming it went out quickly. If, however, it waited for MacBride's replacement, then he did not receive the information until January, 1767 with the arrival of Swift which had left England in September.
    4) In November, MacBride's Carlisle Sound survey party found a bottle on the highest mountain (his own words) on East Falkland. The very bottle that Bougainville had left on that mountain in 1765 perhaps?
    5) One week after the bottle is found MacBride sails into Pembroke Sound and an officer 'discovers' the French settlement after seeing it from the top of a mountain.

    The rest, as they say, is history.

    You have ranged from MacBride missing Berkeley Sound completely, to his having secret observations of the French settlement (slight exaggeration). You have formed a convoluted route to have MacBride finding a bottle on a mountain in the north-west of West Falkland Island despite MacBride's simple English being clear enough even for a Jock to understand - and with no evidence that Bougainville ever placed one there. You have MacBride in possession of maps and charts that would have negated the very purpose for which he was sent out. All nonsense.

    Oct 28th, 2018 - 07:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0

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