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Controversy in Brazil as anti graft Judge Moro accepts post as Justice minister

Friday, November 2nd 2018 - 07:11 UTC
Full article 40 comments

Brazilian far-right President-elect Jair Bolsonaro has convinced crusading anti-graft Judge Sergio Moro to become his justice minister, the two said on Thursday, delighting supporters and enraging critics “by hiring the jurist who jailed Bolsonaro's chief political rival”. Read full article

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  • DemonTree

    Moro's reward for taking Bolsonaro's rival out of the election? Or just a clever way of ensuring the crusading judge will not go after B's own ministers?

    I suppose that having served it's purpose, the Lava Jato investigation will now be allowed the die, and those convicted - except of course for Lula - quietly released from prison.

    Nov 02nd, 2018 - 06:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    DT (Cont of 'Bolsonaro not best...')
    “Or cut taxes while increase spending, like Trump”: Yes. Worked w/ Reagan. Since you mentioned Trump, I'll mention BO - Jan 2009, US debt, US$ 10.6 trillion; Jan 2017, US$ 19.9…nearly double.
    But this is abt Brazil – taxes have never been cut other than sporadically/temporarily, on a few selected items to try to stimulate respective sectors - 'n didn’t work too well. “

    ”like to know why you don't criticize his economic policy, as you do Dilma's” …Because,1) the discussion's abt Brazil, 2) size of US economy is 10 x Brazil’s, 3) structure of US's economy is far more solid/organized (good infrastructure, contributes to progress), 4) no State-owned cos draining tax resources, 5) less corruption.

    Take a look at who some of these (350) economists are…probably many leftists, like Akerlof (Berkely). Williamsons “Washington Consensus” looks much like B’s proposals.

    Haddad’s a liar. Don’t doubt for 1 second he wouldn’t find some excuse to release Lula…perhaps “pressure from the UNHRC“? ”Ah, I had no choice”... That’s how the PT works. You may not think so, but you really don’t know.
    Just fyi, Haddad’s commie VP (Manoela) is a declared atheist, yet to look good, went to a few church services. Haddad’s proposals for the economy were much the same as Dilma’s…he even had the nerve to change his proposals 3 X (even copying some of B’s) as he realized he was losing ground. Just before the 2nd round, in desperation, he announced he’d raise minimum wages 20% as of 1st Jan…5,5 times 2018s projected inflation of 3,6%. Absolutely nuts, economically irresponsible - “that” yes, would screw the economy. I think I should be thankful.

    Of course I don’t condone the mail bomber’s or the Synagogue shooter’s actions, but they appear to be ‘lone wolves’. Just to get the record straight, in BRAZIL, it’s the PT who started spreading fake news 10 yrs ago...not the conservatives.

    Btw, B's not appointing corrupt people ; L J will be strengthened...

    Nov 02nd, 2018 - 10:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “Yes. Worked w/ Reagan.”

    Well... take a look at this chart:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_States#/media/File:US_Federal_Debt_as_Percent_of_GDP_by_President_(1940_to_2015).png

    After WWII, every president paid down the debt, until Reagan. He grew the economy at the expense of more debt, and Bush I followed him. Clinton tried to pay the debt down again, but it was unpopular. People had got used to all that free money, so Bush II started borrowing again, and Obama increased it even more (but remember that when he took over the US was in it's worst recession since the 1930s). Now Trump is increasing the deficit even more than Obama!

    There's another difference between the US and Brazilian economies that you didn't mention: the US economy has been growing fairly steadily, and unemployment is low. In those circumstances, the conventional wisdom is that you should cut the deficit, and pay your debts off. Putting more money into the economy is likely to cause a bubble that makes the next crash worse. In contrast, Brazil has just emerged from recession, the economy is struggling and unemployment extremely high. Cutting the deficit now is likely to send the country straight back into recession, as just happened in Argentina due to the IMFs control. Macri was just forced to raise the taxes he had already declared were too high.

    In my view, they are getting it backwards. The US should cut the deficit as Guedes wants to, and Brazil should cut taxes as Trump did, until the economy is growing again.

    “Of course I don’t condone the mail bomber’s or the Synagogue shooter’s actions, but they appear to be ‘lone wolves’.”

    So are most of the Islamic terrorists. They are the most dangerous kind, because they are harder to find and predict. But both groups kill people, and both want to enforce their views (very similar views) on society. You think I should fear the Islamists, but not worry about the right-wing takeover that's happening before our eyes?

    Nov 02nd, 2018 - 11:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    JB
    ”It’s the PT who started spreading fake news 10 yrs ago...not the conservatives.
    As far as the as the present term is used its part and parcel of the alt.right agenda. Used mainly by Trump and purveyed by Steve Bannon. It wasn't in common parlance ten years ago. https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-42724320

    Nov 03rd, 2018 - 10:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    REF: Moro [or not so Moro] & Lava-Jato [again!]

    The justice is made only when the millions/billions stolen &/or wasted are returned to the public funds [if at all the so-called democracy is not a farce]. Till then:

    - ALL the accused/suspects/convicted are innocent
    - More expenses for the inquiries, trials, etc.
    - More expenses for keeping the VIPs behind bars
    - No tangible benefits to the country/population.

    BBC: “É possível transformar o Brasil em um grande país, mas só se o povo deixar de ser encarado como um problema”:
    https://www.bbc.com/portuguese/blog-tim-vickery-46047305

    Nov 03rd, 2018 - 11:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Re Lava Jato, if by the end of next year some of the big names from other parties are in jail, I'll admit I was wrong. What do you expect to see and what would make you say the investigation had stalled?

    Nov 03rd, 2018 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    DT
    I originally stated “deficits the result of continuing spending at same rate, with falling revenue”; you replied “Or cut taxes while increase spending, like Trump” ; Me :“Yes. Worked w/ Reagan”, which you don’t seem to agree with ;
    Ok, under RR (81/88 incl), nat’l debt rose fm 32,5 to 50,5% of GDP (increased 55%),’n GDP increased 27% in tt period. With BO (09/16 incl),debt rose fm 67 to 106% of GDP (increased 58%), while GDP increased only 13%; Given the financial crisis of 2008, slowing down the GDP, can give BO a discount, but fact remains RR still managed a better debt/GDP ratio.; In 78/79 the Fed raised prime rate to 20% to ward off inflation; 1980 there was a slight recession, in 81 RR cut taxes, in 82 the recession ended. In 83 he raised taxes, cut them again in 86.
    What I’m saying is tt while GDP increases, revenue should also, which in a way, means debt can too (supposedly funds being generated to pay it off)…but when revenue, due to lower GDP, is falling, you should go easy on the spending (not let debt get out of control)…which was my original point.
    Agree, to pay off the deficit NOW, in Brazil, is virtually impossible, but don’t increase it, or be very careful. Dilma ignored all of this. Guedes wants to sell off inefficient State companies, use the proceeds to reduce the debt which in turn reduces interest 'n leaves money over....the start of a virtuous cycle. Taxes will be re-arranged, to burden the rich more, the poor less.

    By ‘lone wolves’ I mean acting entirely on yr own, not being part of a group, or receiving funds. When groups plan attacks, there is more chance of intelligence listening to ‘chatter’ and narrowing in. Islamic terrorism/encroachment is a consolidated fact, the EU ‘right-wing’ (which to me sounds rather modest), is unlikely to do anything extreme. The people have the power to reverse tendencies.

    Big names, other parties alrdy are ; Congress’ efforts to obstruct the L J ; expect to see the investigations grow, spread out.

    Nov 03rd, 2018 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    ““Yes. Worked w/ Reagan”, which you don’t seem to agree with ;”

    Well, if by 'worked', you mean it increased the deficit, then yeah. But I don't think that was the intended result!

    Agree RR's borrowing had a better result that BO's, though certainly the latter took over at a worse time, and had a lot more problems passing bills. But it doesn't get round the fact the people and governments of the US have been unwilling to pay the debt off ever since. Reagan should not have lowered taxes again in 86, he could have kept the legacy of the improved economy and started lowering the debt again, but he wanted to be popular.

    ”What I’m saying is tt while GDP increases, revenue should also, which in a way, means debt can too (supposedly funds being generated to pay it off)…but when revenue, due to lower GDP, is falling, you should go easy on the spending (not let debt get out of control)“

    That's where we disagree. That's like saying you should spend all your money while you have plenty, and then try to save when you don't have enough to live on. Obviously the prudent thing is to save or pay off your debts when you have money to spare; that way you can use those savings, or your credit card, to tide you over the bad times.

    I recall reading that third world countries generally do follow the policy you mentioned, and that is one of the reasons for their perpetual financial troubles. Will Guedes' attempt be any different? We'll see.

    ”Taxes will be re-arranged, to burden the rich more, the poor less. ”

    I'll believe that when I see it. If they cut taxes for the poor at all, I predict they'll cut taxes for the rich a lot more.

    Re Lava Jato, I meant if more go to jail, who are not there already, then I will believe the investigations continued after Moro's appointment.

    No room for terrorists...

    @Idiot
    Do you think something can't exist until it's named? There was an avalanche of fake news after Obama's election, it was called urban legends then.

    Nov 03rd, 2018 - 11:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB/DT:

    Savings?

    What savings?

    Are/were there plans to save ANYTHING?
    https://www.folhape.com.br/obj/219/204028,930,80.jpg

    Nov 04th, 2018 - 12:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    JB
    “Do you think something can't exist until it's named?” It's you who used the terminology of the alt.right, ergo accidentally, as to who is the primary contributor to this phenomenon.

    Nov 04th, 2018 - 04:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Regarding deficits, spending, debt, GDP, my main point is tt every economy has its own characteristics, 'n those permit different courses of action, 'n to different degrees. Anyway, the original issue was how Dilma overspent wrecklessy while she drove the country into the ground. In her case, there is no excuse for her incompetence, compounded by her efforts to hide her sh*t...to get re-elected.

    “That's where we disagree. That's like saying you should spend all your money while you have plenty, and then try to save when you don't have enough to live on..”
    Notice that I said “which in a way, means debt can too”.. “in a way...”, meaning that, if you intend to 'spend', then do it while revenue is coming in, not the opposite. There is no magic formula in economics that can be applied across the board, each case is different 'n all variables have to be considered....on principle, a responsible govt should cut back (if 'n where it can) when it sees a storm on the horizon....and IF loans were taken responsibly, that is, used to finance needed 'n well-planned projects ('n carried out efficiently), they should start tpay for themselves, in a calculated time-frame, it is more likely to reduce problems than to increase them.
    Bottom line : Guedes proposals for Brazil NOW, make a lot of sense. Just have to see if Congress cares more about Brazil than its members own personal interests.

    One of Guedes' proposals re personal income tax, is to exempt everyone who earns under 5 minimum wages, which is an enormous advancement 'n will benefit the great majority, not the rich (who will be called upon to compensate, by being taxed on items which today are virtually exempt).

    Don't know why you are so skeptical about the L J ? is it because Lula was put away ? believe me, he is far from the only one.

    TH
    In another post I asked you what the difference is btwn “fake news”, lies, etc ....zero !
    In other words, the flies may change but the shit is the same....idiot.

    Nov 04th, 2018 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT

    REF: “Brazil should cut taxes as Trump did until the economy is growing again”:

    : Cutting Taxes?
    : Growing of Economy?

    - Surely, you mean exactly the opposite!
    https://primerplanoweb.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/200815-liberal.jpg

    To make both the ends meet; THERE ISN'T ANY OTHER WAY but to increase taxes and reduce the quality/standard of the Public-Services. Besides, an increase in the Military Budget is extremely likely!

    Nov 04th, 2018 - 10:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Here, I found an article about it:

    https://www.ft.com/content/73f5d578-4ac9-11e7-a3f4-c742b9791d43

    The Financial Times and World Bank aren't exactly known for their socialist leanings...

    I don't know too much about borrowing for specific projects though (unless you count wars) - have there been any success stories in Brazil?

    How much tax do those earning under 5 minimum wages pay now? And is Guedes planning to cut taxes on food etc?

    “Don't know why you are so skeptical about the L J ?”

    Because of the outcome. Moro wanted to stop the PT winning the presidency, and he suceeded. Now he's going into politics, and you told me what kind of person does that in Brazil. By accepting a job in government, he's officially taken sides, so besides leaving the investigation, any remaining chance that he would act impartially is gone.

    @ :o))
    I think that's my favourite cartoon, it's so accurate. And I hope you're wrong about the military budget. Who is Brazil going to go to war against anyway?

    Nov 04th, 2018 - 11:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT:

    The increase in the Military Budget is to:
    - Ensure Peace
    - Modernize the Armed Forces
    - Have better weaponry than those of the Cartels
    - Combat against the Criminals [Organized Crime]
    - Protect the Borders from the illegal activities
    - Earn hefty commissions from the purchases
    - Keep the White Elephants happy by offering better monetary & other benefits [including to their families].
    - Create a good image; nationally+internationally
    http://www.maranhaodagente.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/joao_montanaro.png

    Nov 05th, 2018 - 08:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Realised I forgot to reply about the terrorists:

    There's a common theme, whereby (mostly) men with problems in their lives watch propaganda videos, follow groups on social media, and end up radicalised. Which ideology appeals to them depends on demographics and their own inclination, but they decide to act on their own, with no money or actual support from the organisations they follow. One difference is that Isis is happy to boast about those acting in their name, while the far right generally disclaim responsibility and say they didn't really mean their rhetoric about race war or the need to destroy the 'deep state'.

    Nov 05th, 2018 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    What article are you referring to specifically ? there's too much to filter through.

    In Brazil, govt projects are always welcomed by politicians....that's why it's so important to place their cronies in top positions in State-owned companies, as they will negotiate 'n make sure everyone up and down the line gets their cut....one such example, the Abreu & Lima refinery in the PE, originally budgeted in 2005 at US$ 2.3 billion, is not completed and up to 2017 has sucked up US$ 20,1 billion....just one of the many projects that needs to be investigated and the 'beneficiaries' arrested. Off hand, do not recall any success stories, but there might be some.

    Re current personal income tax, I have already spelled it out in detail a couple of weeks ago. If I remember correctly, up to about $ 1900/month exempt. up to R$, 2800, 7.5%; up to just under R$ 5000, 15%. Regarding taxes on 'consumption', I don't know. But he'll have to go easy, can't just reduce revenue from one day to another.

    “Moro wanted to stop the PT winning the presidency, and he suceeded” WHAT ???!!! Sorry DT, that is bullsh*t....you are starting to sound like EM, and I absolutely refuse to go over it all again. Can only recommend you learn more about it.
    There are more politicians in jail from other big parties than the PT....I have already listed them, suggest to go back and look for my posts.
    You have the bad habit of taking things literally and then generalizing. (Just a thought : didn't the PT want Moro off Lula's cases ? Now he is, but they keep on complaining). Moro, as Justice Minister will be able to guarantee the continuation of the L J......what is so wrong with that ?? or are you in favour of stopping corruption investigations ? Yes, he's has taken sides ...ONLY NOW... and has withdrawn himself completely from the Lavajato trials. Three months ago, the thought hadn't even crossed his mind. You have joined the leftist shit being spread here. Congrats !

    PS: Re terrorists, noted.

    Nov 05th, 2018 - 07:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Damn, the link didn't work. Try googling “escaping the procyclical fiscal policy trap”. The FT has too much paywall crap...

    Okay, and google says minimum wage is R$937 per month, so 5 minimum wages would be R$4685, taking out most of the two lowest bands.

    “But he'll have to go easy, can't just reduce revenue from one day to another.”

    That's true enough, and he certainly won't be able to reduce the deficit if he does that.

    Re Moro, I think he really was trying to reduce corruption, but he also hated the PT and used his position to work against them. I also think the LJ is in more danger of being suppressed than expanded. That's my opinion and I know you disagree. So, I think we should both say what would convince us otherwise, if we look back in one year's time. You know the politicians much better than me. There must be some accused who have failed to be reelected and thus lost there immunity. Are you expecting some to be in jail by the end of 2019?

    Nov 05th, 2018 - 07:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT/JB:

    REF: “the US economy has been growing fairly steadily, and unemployment is low”:

    True!

    That's why The Top Priority should better be to achieve:
    - Near-Zero Interest
    - Unemployment (+/-) 7% at least
    - US$ = Below R$ 3
    - Stolen billions back to public REF: Moro???
    - Corruption is “Within Limits” [a small % of the existing]
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4241412/Brazil-s-12-billion-Olympic-legacy-lies-ruins.html

    : Debt Payment can then be easier & On Time
    : Standard of Life can then be improved
    : Quality of Life can them be enviable!

    Nov 06th, 2018 - 08:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    ”It’s the PT who started spreading fake news 10 yrs ago...not the conservatives
    Simply unbelievable, just look at the source. But, then he's never allowed the truth to get in way of a good yarn.

    Nov 06th, 2018 - 01:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    DT
    FT : ”.. economy student’s 1st lesson in macroeconomics : for an economy in recession, fiscal stimulus package (more public spending, lower taxes) is what the doctor ordered”…sounds nice, but the dosage depends on the seriousness of the illness. Again, that's the Keynesian approach. I prefer the monetarist approach (Friedman - tighter control of money offer ‘n inflation, spend only what you have), but a mixture of the two is sometimes a good idea. Fiscal austerity's usually harmful when it cuts (productive) investmt, but when loans are used to pay for govt expenses (unproductive), not such a good idea. Anyway no two cases are the same.

    Minimum wage : 2018 - $ 954 ; current income tax: up to $ 1,903 - exempt; to $ 2,826 - 7,5%; to $ 3,751-15%; to $ 4,664 - 22,5%. Guedes' proposal : below $ 5,000, exempt.
    Today, most of the deficit is caused by 1) social security deficit (2016 = $ 226 billion; 2017 = $ 268 bill; 2018 projected, $ 292 bill); 2) yrly interest on current federal debt , +/- $ 280 bill. If Guedes manages to sell off most State-owned companies (as I’ve alrdy mentioned), besides not needing to finance their losses, proceeds will go to reducing debt, ‘n interest.

    Moro has been a Federal judge for 22 years ; his technical knowledge/expertise is not in question ; Lavajato trials fell on his lap ; “he also hated the PT” : what proof do you have that he publicly expressed/insinuated his hate for them, or any other party ? but, while that is your opinion, and I’m quite sure he does not appreciate what they did, or represent, there’s absolutely no evidence that he judged his cases based on political likes/dislikes…but THAT'S EXACTLY what the PT wants everyone to “believe”, from the moment Lula became a suspect, end 2014.

    Under Moro, as Justice Minister, the Federal Police ‘n all anti-corruption agencies will be unified, funds will be guaranteed, and the L J will be strengthened. Dozens weren’t re-elected, but not indicted (yet). By end 2019 ? yes.

    Nov 06th, 2018 - 06:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    According to another article I read, the non-Keynesian approach is basically to keep spending constant, it doesn't involve pro-cyclical policy. But I never studied economics, and I imagine ideas have changed quite a bit since the 70s when you did. There's plenty of theories, but until they are tried out in practice, no one really knows. For example, economists thought Argentina's dollar peg was a great idea, until it all went horribly wrong in 2001. On the other hand, I saw plenty of warnings about the Euro back when it was first adopted, and they have certainly been proven correct.

    So speaking of predictions, I guess I expect Brazil to keep growing very slowly, if at all, for the next few years. What do you think?

    As for Moro, I think his actions show it, from his keeping executives in jail until they implicated Lula in particular, to his leaks which seemed designed to discredit the PT, his hurry to convict Lula before the election, and the spectacle around his questioning. There was also something Moro said that contributed to my impression, but I can't find it now.

    Anyway, are you saying you expect to see dozens of former congressmen in jail by the end of 2019, or only indicted?

    Nov 06th, 2018 - 11:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    Will the Justice Minister offer to the corrupt from PSL [+the affiliated, associated & the linked politicians & their parties] a “Preferential” Treatment?
    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pVBAjijw5Qg/V-V_WUc8o4I/AAAAAAAAPKs/uAO21OS3VX8Uo93LofbCeB58IS5EHWpMQCLcB/s1600/moro-oculista.jpg

    Nov 07th, 2018 - 12:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    As I've said, there's no magical 'across the board' formula to fix an economy....every situation is different, with different variables, which require different actions. The result isn't always predictable.

    My prediction ? “provided” Congress cooperates (within reason - no need to get down on its knees), I think that what Bolsonaro visualizes, 'n is preparing his team for, should see Brazil improving significantly in abt 18-24 months. Obviously, counting on no harmful influence from uncontrollable external factors....but even then, when/if one sees sh*t brewing on the horizon, one should rethink strategy.

    “I think his actions show it, from his keeping executives in jail until they implicated Lula in particular,”

    Extremely biased view .....first, the law permits it, not a “Moro” policy...if you were trying to extract the truth from a criminal, short of torture (and other illegal practises), wouldn't you use all the means at your disposal ?
    Two, 'until they implicated Lula ' ?......IF they had nothing to blow the whistle on, that is, they too were totally innocent, how come they were found to be implicated ? and how come they had confidential information that led to evidence against Lula ? if it were all 'fabricated', as you seem to believe, they would not be in a condition to spill the beans, and would remain in jail for years, while they were all perfectly innocent...you really need to get rid of your bias, your notion that Lula is innocent, that he was persecuted, that Moro in July 2017 already knew he would become the Justice Minister....your conspiracy theories are absurd.

    As to the leaks, it's not the leaks themselves that discredit someone, but what's in them.. there was no “hurry” - the 'speed' is how 1st instance works...but it's what the PT has successfully brainwashed you to believe..

    I expect many ex-politicians, mainly PT, PMDB, PP, and to a lesser extent other parties (becos they weren't in govt) to be accused / jailed in 2019.

    Nov 07th, 2018 - 07:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    Looks like he could be well prepared to eliminate corruption [but perhaps not the corrupt!]
    https://i2.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Bolsonaro-Ministros-Ficha-Suja.jpg?resize=768%2C562&ssl=1

    Nov 07th, 2018 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Eta !!! o amigo da onça !!

    Nov 08th, 2018 - 06:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    18-24 months is a long time to wait, but I guess we can see then. Assuming congress cooperates sufficiently, and there are no significant external factors, but we can decide that as we go along.

    Re Moro/Lula, what if the execs were guilty and had info on other members of the PT, but Moro wanted Lula specifically? Easy enough for them to say he was involved to get bail. My impression is that Lula kept this stuff at arms length and let other people handle the finances, making it hard to link to him personally. Anyway, I don't think Moro knew he would get offered the Justice Ministry, but I do think it's pretty improper for a judge to accept a job from someone who benefited by his actions.

    As for the predictions, how many is many? Lets say 10 current or former politiicians to be on trial or jailed, and not from the PT; there are plenty of other parties. And for a special bonus, what do you think will happen to Temer? I have no idea, but I'm kinda going to miss him; he always looks so perfectly like an evil vizier plotting to take the throne (and he did!)

    What does 'onça' mean?

    Nov 08th, 2018 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    After 14 years mismanagement, am being optimistic.

    Re Lula, too many “ifs”.....03/2014, when L J started, Lula wasn't even a suspect....if the money trail led to him, what do you expect the Fed Police / prosecutors to do ? ignore his name popping up all the time ? They followed the evidence, found proof, Lula was tried 'n convicted....why do you always try to find an excuse for him ? thought that by now, you'd have heard 'n read enough (fm serious sources !), to know Lula is as guilty as charged.
    You may think Lula “kept this stuff at arm's length” (which in many cases he did), but recent testimony fm Palocci puts Lula right in the middle of bribe negotiations concerning PB 'n Odebrecht. Only this morning, Marcelo Odebrecht, while testifying to Moro's substitute, Gabriela Hardt, reconfirmed tt the reform of the Atibaia country home, was requested by M.Leticia (Lula's wife) to his father, Emilio Odebrecht...Marcelo was pissed-off, as he didn't want Odebrecht mixed up in 'personal' gifts to Lula...but when he found out, it was a done deal.

    “improper for a judge to accept a job from someone who benefited by his actions” (???).

    How exactly did Bolsonaro benefit fm Moro's actions ? if at all, only indirectly/accidentally, as nothing was premeditated.....Lula incriminated himself, not Moro, nor Bolsonaro...and you are completely ignoring the fact that most people were already fed up with the corruption, the PT's continual whining, always trying to pose as the victims, etc...when are you going to realize, 'n accept the fact, that Lula is where he deserves to be ? he is not there because of one giant conspiracy, and he is anything but innocent.

    Predictions ? The L J has put dozens away (politicians, bribe brokers, executives), the list is long..
    Google :
    Lista de pessoas condenadas na operação lavajato
    Lava jato completa 3 anos...soma 198 prisões (2017)
    em 4 anos L J já alcançou 14 partidos.
    Temer ? Convicted.
    “onça” = jaguar (expression = traitor)

    Nov 08th, 2018 - 09:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    No matter in which direction; there'll be some progress:
    https://i1.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Paulo-Guedes-vai-Privatizar-tudo.jpg?resize=580%2C399&ssl=1

    Nov 09th, 2018 - 10:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @:o))
    enquanto o Guedes não privatizar os C*s deste país, o governo vai continuar abusando deles...

    Nov 09th, 2018 - 02:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB

    a SMALL problem:

    Who guarantees that the privatization process is “clean” [without someone's overseas account getting fatter]?
    https://mobilizacoessociaisnasruasdobrasil.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/charge-10-publicada-na-quarta-feira-26-de-junho-de-2013.png

    Nov 09th, 2018 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    *If* the money trail led to Lula. Compared to others, where are the offshore accounts, the stolen billions? On the other hand, there are more charges pending against him, maybe I'll find the evidence for some of them more convincing. But that still wouldn't be enough to convince me there was no ulterior motive behind his current conviction. I'll be watching Moro's actions from now on, to see how fair they are.

    “How exactly did Bolsonaro benefit fm Moro's actions ?”

    You know how: by being elected president of Brazil. Haddad was always behind B; Lula was way ahead. Whether Moro was justified or not, there's no doubt that Bolso and the right have benefited hugely.

    Re Temer, isn't he B's best friend right now? But perhaps that won't last past the new year.

    @ :o))
    Don't be silly, even in the UK privatisation means state assets are sold off cheap to benefit the friends and allies of the ministers. You've just got to hope they are managed better once in private hands and not screwed up even more.

    Nov 09th, 2018 - 11:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT

    I understand your point of “they are managed better once in private hands and not screwed up even more”


    However:
    - In all the aspects; comparing the UK with BR; aren't we?
    - Just leaving it on the hopes, luck & karma; aren't we?

    By now, you may have learned that a politician always has perfect justifications for ALL of the [mis]deeds!

    And as you can clearly see in the following example that ANYTHING is possible in Brazil:

    EXAMPLE: A Report from DW [a fake news; of course]:
    https://www.dw.com/pt-br/brasil-ainda-usa-agrot%C3%B3xicos-j%C3%A1-proibidos-em-outros-pa%C3%ADses/a-18837979 ]

    Nov 10th, 2018 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    By “if the money trail led to him, what do you expect....”, I mean, “because it led to him”, was not hypothetical.
    One thing you 've probably realized by now, Lula was very careful to not associate his name to anything, he has nothing in his name.....this little gimmick has long been seen through...it's all in the name of 'good friends'. But as far as foreign accounts go, where do you think the billions that disappeared from PB went ? “nothing” to Lula and the PT, even if they were in charge ? I think the accounts are very well hidden, in places where the int'l banking system does not have full access....fiscal paradises ? some banks in VZ, Cuba, Equatorial Guinea ???
    I sure hope you do keep an eye on Moro......and the only thing I ask is that you refrain from using leftist, biased sources, to inform yourself, to try to to justify anything you might like to presume (without proof) that he is being partial...

    Well, if you are already convinced he's been convicted due to some ulterior motive, you will never admit any evidence is proof, therefore I see no point in discussing “Lula” any further. I really don't know what you consider proof, short of a confession (?)

    “You know how: by being elected president of Brazil.”....you really believe that don't you ? that Moro and B were in cahoots 14 months ago ? C'mon DT, you can do better than that.
    The fact that B benefited from Lula's disgrace, is just a consequence, and as such, irrelevant, if you try to link B winning and Moro's convicting Lula.

    ”Re Temer, isn't he B's best friend right now? But perhaps that won't last past the new year.
    Temer may be sucking up to B, but B has never been Temer's friend.....
    Temer will be screwed as of 2nd Jan 2019......the evidence I've heard of so far, in the case of signing legislation which supposedly benefited several port operators (in Santos) , in exchange for illegal campaign donations, the total overhaul of his daughter's house, is pretty damning

    Nov 10th, 2018 - 10:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB:

    REF: “Temer will be screwed...............is pretty damning”:

    Not so true:

    Temer'll soon be “promoted” [and of course, will enjoy special privileges]. ALL the accusations against him may - naturally - disappear into thin air!

    It's just a question of time [only a few months]; to confirm that the following could be Fake News [or not].

    According to Correio Braziliense:
    https://www.correiobraziliense.com.br/app/noticia/politica/2018/11/09/interna_politica,718617/michel-temer-e-cotado-para-assumir-a-embaixada-brasileira-na-italia.shtml?fbclid=IwAR3TGsv12NO7pXt3yjlpWq7D1y97uxCzn6BFAeTL1DKa1HnVA_cv5a_GLfI

    Nov 11th, 2018 - 08:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    3) Operating as investigator, prosecutor and judge in his own case, and trying Lula without a jury. Although this is actually legal in Brazil, it it based on archaic law dating to the Inquisition. Moro’s role in Lula’s prosecution was literally, in a legal sense, that of Inquisitor;
    6) With no material evidence connecting Lula to the apartment in question, which is still registered in the name of the construction company that built it, Moro based his entire ruling on his personal “conviction” that Lula was guilty, and one plea bargain testimony, which was changed 3 times before the convicted criminal who made it was awarded with sentence reduction, transfer to house arrest and partial retention of illicit assets”
    http://www.brasilwire.com/lava-jatofascism-is-a-match-whos-the-matchmaker/

    Nov 11th, 2018 - 04:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @:o))
    Ééééé.....possible ....or just speculation ???

    @TH
    Well done Terry....you and 'brasilwire'...a perfect left-wing match. Just need to see the sources you use, to know you are a communist. Don't worry, I won't argue with you, idiot.

    Nov 11th, 2018 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    JB
    So other than you unloading your personal opinion as to what mine or the publication's political views are. Your unable to show any factual issue that refutes the article, thanks for the endorsement that they got it right.

    Nov 11th, 2018 - 07:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    “I really don't know what you consider proof, short of a confession”

    Finding those secret accounts would be a good start. They've found them for some of the others accused, and with all these plea bargains you'd think something would turn up.

    “you really believe that don't you ? that Moro and B were in cahoots 14 months ago ?”

    No, I don't believe that. I think Moro wanted to stop the PT winning the presidency again, and probably preferred someone from the right to win, but not Bolso in particular. And B knows M is on his side politically, and wants to get him on side practically, worrying about reforms rather than investigating B's government. How can he whhen he's part of it?  

    “Temer will be screwed as of 2nd Jan 2019”

    Poor Temer, kept around as long as he's useful and then chucked under the bus. You don't believe :o))'s story, then?

    Nov 11th, 2018 - 09:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    TH
    Don't flatter yourself.......waste my time to refute that 'garbage' ? unlikely, Numb Nuts.

    @DT
    “Finding those secret accounts would be a good start”.....sure would, but considering that Lula's known assets (now, ex-assets) are in someone else's name, it will be difficult, even if found, to pin them on him, unlesss the movement of such accounts coincide with injections of cash into local PT activities....however, in both Odebretcht, and OAS, 'confidential' accounts, heavily funded, and at Lula's disposal, 'were' found.....that's how Lula could use the accounts and could resort to plausible deniability....the only problem is that those who were holding the accounts for him, and some of his closest aides, decided to squeal on the Lularat.

    When the L J started, no one had any idea where it would lead, and definitely not to the criminal organization inside Petrobras, sponsored first of all by the PT, alone, and then with the PMDB, when the PT had to bring them into government (2010), to avoid Lula's impeachment, in 2007. If you were aware of all the facts , and their chronology, perhaps you would have a better understanding of why 'n when things happened as they did.

    The fact lula was implicated, was the result of his crimes, NOT Moro....besides, when the L J started, Lula had no intention of running again, because he believed he would always manage to elect his 'posts'....so I don't see how Moro, in 2014, could have targeted Lula, in 2017/18. The PT pushes this conspiracy theory with all its might, 'n all I have to say to those who want to believe it, is “be my guest”.

    B is anti-corruption.....Moro is anti-corruption...if that puts them on the same side, then so be it.

    “...worrying about reforms rather than investigating B's government. How can he when he's part of it? ”

    Can you hear yourself ??? 1st, the reforms ARE essential, cannot wait. 2nd, B's govt hasn't even started yet !!!

    Re Temer (Ambassador to Italy), definitely hope not, and I doubt it

    Nov 11th, 2018 - 10:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “in both Odebretcht, and OAS, 'confidential' accounts, heavily funded, and at Lula's disposal, 'were' found.....that's how Lula could use the accounts and could resort to plausible deniability”

    Why wasn't he prosecuted based on that then, rather than the triplex? Not enough evidence?

    “When the L J started, no one had any idea where it would lead”

    I don't subscribe to the idea that the LJ was a conspiracy to target Lula. But taking advantage of events as they happened is a different matter. After it became clear Lula would run again, Moro had the chance to stop him with the triplex case. If that didn't exist, probably Moro would have pursued one of the others instead.

    “B's govt hasn't even started yet !!!”

    They'll face the same problem the PT did, though. No majority in Congress, and a bunch of people who expect to be bribed into supporting measures. I'm wondering, would it be possible for the President to fire Moro from his current position as judge? And what will happen if B fires Moro from his job as minister some time in the future?

    Nov 11th, 2018 - 11:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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