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Cristina Fernandez, Jose Mujica and Dilma Rousseff in a Critical Thinking forum

Monday, November 12th 2018 - 07:30 UTC
Full article 50 comments

Several Latin American presidents and political activists are scheduled to hold the First Forum of Critical Thinking next week in Buenos Aires, just a few days before the G20 summit which this year in being hosted by Argentina and will convene the world's leaders. Read full article

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  • :o))

    REF: NYT: “What the Hell Happened to Brazil?”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/09/opinion/what-the-hell-happened-to-brazil-wonkish.html

    Nov 12th, 2018 - 09:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • roray

    All of the criminals will be together again; this will be their last meeting as their reign is over!

    Nov 12th, 2018 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @roray:

    REF: “this will be their last [???] meeting”:

    I'd prefer not to bet on it! Crooks - particularly the professionals - will ALWAYS be crooks:
    http://www.chargeonline.com.br/php/DODIA//mariano.jpg

    Nov 12th, 2018 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Jack Bauer

    DILMA in a “critical thinking” forum ???????????????????? this MUST be a joke.....she can't even put two words together, sensibly. Funny thing, they haven't told what she will (try to) talk about....but IF she does open her blow hole, I hope we get a chance to listen to her.... should be hilarious.

    Nov 12th, 2018 - 05:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB:

    REF: “ this MUST be a joke”:

    If it is NOT a joke; itá just a farce, a soap-opera!

    ALL the crooks are hell-bent on grabbing power one way or the other - till their very last breath. WHY? - it's anyone's guess!

    As alerted earlier, those who could not enter into the govt. from the front-gate [Election] will generously be “permitted” to enter from the back-door.

    Finally, for the masses, it appears that the politicians of one political party are the “rivals/enemies” of those from the other parties. This merely is an “appearance”!

    Depending upon whichever politician is whose favorite; the politician is considered as good/bad. But ultimately & behind the back of the masses [& the reporters]; they ALL belong to the same race - the only one group which has only one objective.

    The objective is of systematically & non-stop:
    - draining of economy,
    - grabbing more power,
    - acquiring more privileges & benefits
    - passing power on to the next generations+associates
    : to name just a few of the reasons; why they are so adamant in remaining together & politically active! It's a simple matter of “Exchange of Favors” - Believe it or NOT!

    Nov 12th, 2018 - 07:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • chronic

    Is there a drone available?

    Nov 12th, 2018 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    THE Exchange: [CONTD]:

    The Most recent example of “Exchange of Favours”:
    http://www.chargeonline.com.br/php/DODIA//mariano.jpg
    Just keep looking to find many - Too Many - incidents of “Exchange of Favors”!

    Nov 12th, 2018 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    Former Latin American presidents who dared to try and support the destitute in their respective countries: MP commentators disapprove of your gathering.

    Some of those respectable commentators casually call you crooks (they have never said a word in this forum about right-wing crooks).

    One of them has put together a list of your sinister goals:

    - “draining of economy,
    - ”grabbing more power,
    - “acquiring more privileges & benefits
    - ”passing power on to the next generations+associates”

    I look at the list and I see clearly reflected, for example, Argentine and Brazil presidents Maurico Macri and Michel Temer.

    Macri, for example, has been so nasty that in less than three years, Argentine electors have turned around and are now willing to give a majority of ballots to Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, as unity of different Peronist sectors takes shape.

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    Nov 13th, 2018 - 04:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @EM:

    True!

    That's why the following observation:

    ALL the crooks are hell-bent on grabbing power one way or the other - till their very last breath. WHY? - it's anyone's guess!

    Finally, for the masses, it appears that the politicians of one political party are the “rivals/enemies” of those from the other parties. This merely is an “appearance”!

    Depending upon whichever politician is whose favorite; the politician is considered as good/bad. But ultimately & behind the back of the masses [& the reporters]; they ALL belong to the same race - the only one group which has only one objective.
    https://i2.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Reformas-Pobre-Paga.jpg?zoom=0.8999999761581421&resize=480%2C360&ssl=1

    Nov 13th, 2018 - 09:11 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • The Voice

    Bahahaha… .Is this meant to be a joke? Where is Think? Its the best lineup of SA clowns ever.

    Nov 13th, 2018 - 12:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @EM

    Looks like you would like to write an open letter to your heroes.....

    “Former Latin American presidents who dared to try and support the destitute in their respective countries: MP commentators disapprove of your gathering.”

    Reekie, no one is against their “gathering”......they can, and will “gather”, that is their nature.

    Thanks for the “respectable”, even though it's obvious you don't mean it...btw, I didn't see Temer's name on the guest list......but is he one of those you label “right-wing” crook ? he may be a crook (and I am sure he is), but to call him right-wing ? really Reekie, do a bit of research, try putting your brain in gear before you open your mouth...

    And of course, two speakers, Haddad and his communist VP, Manoela D'Avila, will be the highlight of the forum....now they have an international stage from which to spread their fake news....should be entertaining,...provided Dilma's “comedy” does not relegate them to the shadows.

    Nov 13th, 2018 - 09:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @The Voice [+ EM/JB]

    REF: “Is this meant to be a joke?”

    Thanx for asking!

    Including The Investigations, including The Elections; the rest of it all is a joke, a farce or a Soap-Opera - whichever way one sees it [with Open-Eyes - of course, Dr. Sergio Moro will NEVER agree].

    WHY? Here is “why”:

    Observed elsewhere [+ repeatedly too]; as long as the “guilty” are well protected, as long as they are well above & beyond the laws, as long as the Purposely Created Loopholes continue to remain Wide Open and as long as there is hardly any effort to squeeze the stolen wealth out of the culprits; the Investigations + the Rest of it ALL can continue to remain as a tragicomedy, joke, a farce, a soap opera - a REALITY-SHOW [a Full Package of Entertainment] - a “Vale a pena ver DE NOVO”!

    But the biggest problem of it all; is that neither anyone wants to believe nor anyone wants to care [nor anyone wants to “DO SOMETHING” about it].

    SUB: “campaign accounts are under review”:
    http://en.mercopress.com/2018/11/14/bolsonaro-s-campaign-accounts-are-under-review-for-possible-illegal-donations

    Nov 14th, 2018 - 09:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    Left-oriented governments must not get an automatic pass. As in everything, the proof is in the pudding and they must be evaluated according to their accomplishments or failures.

    On the other hand, many commentators who live in developed capitalist countries have great difficult imagining what it means to be a right-wing, neo-liberal, ultra conservative governments in a Latin-American context.

    These people have unconditional admiration for the central economies and consider their country people as disposable, worthless and good only to be manipulated.

    That is why you won't find in Latin American countries an example of a full capitalist system. Instead, you find a shapeless, incipient capitalism strongly influenced by semi-feudal remnants and an absolute dependency of the central capitalist countries.

    Argentine president Mauricio Macri is a good example of the above. The son of an Italian immigrant became a powerful industrial, Macri also has large landowners' on his mother side, that is the authentic Argentine oligarchy.

    There is no other explanation of his absolute contempt for Argentine citizens who express their distress as the country's economy crumbles. Macri can lie with a straight face and a mic in front of him. He also tells citizens how is “stressed” by the situation, and in the same breath he adds that, even if tough, his way is the only way.

    The only way people like Macri get elected is by lying, and lying some more.

    Nov 14th, 2018 - 06:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    JB
    “..which to spread their fake news.” You can hold any opinion you wish, but if you continue libel others, then I will be reviewing your history. From hence, I will be able to reveal you as you really are, through your own writings.

    Nov 14th, 2018 - 11:41 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • :o))

    @EM

    REF: “in the same breath he adds that, even if tough, his way is the only way”

    Pl. name the last president [of ANY country] who DIDN'T say something similar during a campaign (& won mass-support)! [Obs: Not justifying “Serious Intentions” of ANY politician - or am I?]!
    http://jotaneves.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Eleicao.jpg

    Nov 15th, 2018 - 12:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    TH
    “I can hold any opinion I wish” ? Oh well, thanks a lot, but I don't believe I need your permission to have an opinion.....especially coming from an idiot who does not know what 'to have an opinion' means....

    And, just in case you haven't yet understood, I couldn't give a rat's arse what you want to review....so why don't you just STFU ? unless you have something constructive, or even entertaining, to say (such as a joke about Dilma, Haddad, or his stupid communist VP, Manuelinha) ?

    Nov 15th, 2018 - 08:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @EM:

    REF: “These people have unconditional admiration for the central economies and consider their country people as disposable, worthless and good only to be manipulated”:

    More accurate - The TRUTH - difficult to swallow:

    These people - from the right, center & left - have unconditional admiration for their own interests + consider the masses as disposable, worthless and good only to be manipulated [forever].

    WHY ELSE would they NEED TO REMAIN in power?
    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hrdOpb2_Gno/Vyy4gwAL2XI/AAAAAAAAV7k/J9w6nj5CKRMFCgPcHEi-LvjmW_jZLb1_gCLcB/s1600/Charges%2Bpara%2Bpostagens%2Bdo%2Bdia%2Ba%2Bdia%2B%252812%2529.jpg

    Nov 16th, 2018 - 02:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    JB
    “what you want to review..” You've been warned, keep maligning innocent people and your nefarious history will be revealed.
    “The truth will set you free” Since everything you post is your own opining, devoid of any obligatory proof. Which, is therefore under the precepts of argumentative theory completely untrue. Thus, all you have posted is thus, so far vulnerable.

    Nov 16th, 2018 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “You've been warned, keep maligning innocent people and your nefarious history will be revealed.”

    What, the same unsourced quotes you've been pasting all over this site for the last 3 years? Oooh, what a threat.

    Nov 17th, 2018 - 10:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “the same unsourced quotes” The proof of which is where? Ouch! now your revealed as having the same modus operand as your 'cuddle chum' the proven chronic liar. But, we already knew that.

    Nov 17th, 2018 - 11:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    REF:
    http://en.mercopress.com/2018/11/15/double-victory-for-argentina-s-macri-ahead-of-the-g20-leaders-summit#comment494780
    - austerity measures are coming
    - Austerity-Measures are Coming
    - Austerity-Measures ARE coming TO BRAZIL too?

    Nov 17th, 2018 - 11:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @Terry the Hypocrite
    Have you forgotten so soon? I asked you to link to the source of one of your quotes and unlike Voice you couldn't do it. All I got was a bunch of feeble excuses from the hypocrite who pretended quoting without a link was some terrible, deceitful thing when Voice did it.

    @ :o))
    Austerity is already there, and has been for a long time. It's just going to get worse now.

    Do you live in Brazil?

    Nov 17th, 2018 - 01:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “I asked you to link to the source of one of your quotes and unlike Voice you couldn't do”
    I have just asked you to prove your claim, but you're unable to, so much for that.

    Nov 17th, 2018 - 02:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT

    REF: Austerity is already there & has been for a long time

    Sorry for the misunderstanding created.

    - The austerity which you refer to; is “Self-Imposed”, a part of the self-discipline [if exists] and am aware of it.

    - The austerity which I refer to; is the one which is a declared one - “Officially ENFORCED” - on the helpless masses by the government which THEY elected! Pl. hold-on till it becomes “officially official” in Early 2'019.
    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-g_AwPxdEDL0/UFBiVMRQ6_I/AAAAAAAABDU/TYmP1lnOLVs/s1600/L.FRASCO+cartoon_austeridade+troika+passos+gaspar.jpg

    From Luxembourg with a “connection” in Brasilia

    Nov 17th, 2018 - 02:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @ :o))
    Heh. Sadly that is probably pretty accurate.

    And Luxembourg, that's random. I had a friend at Uni who lived there, his parents worked for the EU and seemed to get paid pretty well. I've heard Luxembourg is full of Portuguese people, but not of Brazilians. How do you speak Portuguese if you're from Luxembourg?

    @Terry the Liar
    Ask all you like, I'm not doing anything for a hypocrite like you.

    Nov 17th, 2018 - 05:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “Ask all you like” I only ask once to confirm that what you claim is not true.
    “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Christopher Hitchens
    Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof lies with who declares, not who denies) it.

    Nov 17th, 2018 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    (Cont “Controversy in Bzl etc..”)
    “Why wasn't he prosecuted based on tt…”..he WAS…it’s clear you don’t know tt these confidential accts financed the triplex, the country home in Atibaia / reforms, 'n other stuff...the accts were debited by respective costs. You seem to ignore that all the spreadsheets detailing the accts were supplied by Odeb/OAS to the L J.
    “But taking advantage of events as they happened is a different matter”….taking ‘advantage’ of events ? 1st of all, specifically which event ? 'n 2nd, how d' you conclude that ? pls answer with specifics. Tks.
    Don’t know what events you are going to present, but if you think that using Lula’s crimes to convict him is taking advantage of the events….then, of course.…what else ? You also forget it was only AFTER the triplex case came out in the open, that Lula became a suspect / Dilma was impeached, AND Lula decided to run…so why would Moro pin the triplex on Lula to prevent him from running, if at that point he had no intention of…? As I said, if you were aware of the facts 'n ‘when’ they happened, you would not be so skeptical.
    Makes no sense to consider problems that B’s govt might face 2019, due to an uncooperative Congress, to condemn it….altho a reasonable portion of Congress was renewed, that is no guarantee it'll be less greedy, or more cooperative…then it'll depends on whether B can get the people behind his proposals, forcing Congress's hand. In the end, his strength will come from the people if they believe in his proposals.
    On the other hand, had Haddad been elected, we could all be 100% sure that cooperation would be obtained through ‘pocket-money’…I suppose ‘that’ would be better ?

    At the moment, Moro cannot be fired…under what pretext ? he has already recused himself from ALL his cases, will resign next week, 'n will take over the Ministry on Jan 1st. It is B’s prerogative to fire Moro, or any other Minister, if irreconcilable disagreements occur.

    TH
    “warned” ? Oh my, I'm so scared..

    Nov 17th, 2018 - 10:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT

    REF: “I've heard Luxembourg is full of Portuguese people”:

    Not THAT many!

    REF: “How do you speak Portuguese”:

    Not fluently. I speak “Hindi” as well [not fluently too]. But my English is not very bad - I guess.

    Nov 18th, 2018 - 11:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    JB
    You seem to ignore that all the spreadsheets detailing the accts supplied by Odeb are refuted. Thus another lie.
    ”LULA’S DEFENSE PROVES ODEBRECHT’S MATERIAL WAS TAMPERED WITH
    April 2, 2018
    Former President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva’s defense proved today (04/02), by means of 3 expert reports drafted by national and international experts in computer science and accounting, that the electronic material analyzed by the Federal Police in the report submitted on 02/23/2018 (Criminal Proceeding No. 5063130-17.2016.4.04.7000) cannot be considered authentic according to the...
    http://www.averdadedelula.com.br/?s=spreadsheets&x=0&y=0

    Nov 18th, 2018 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    TH
    “You seem to ignore that all the spreadsheets detailing the accts supplied by Odeb are refuted”...

    No, I am perfectly aware that Lula, and his lawyers refute the spreadsheets......the same ones that the Swiss authorities handed over to the Brazilian Federal Police and prosecutors, taken from the “Drousys” (parallel accounting) system in Odebrecht's secret server located at a small company on the outskirts of Geneva (several hard discs containing 1,7 million files, equal to 2,67 terabytes of information from Odebrecht’s bribe dept, covering all bribes paid in Brazil and other countries, naming the beneficiaries, identified by code names…such as Lula, referred to as “amigo do EO” (friend of Emilio Odebrecht).

    Must be good to have friends like that ...when Lula left the presidency at the end of 2010, Emilio had a meeting with him, during which he informed the toad he had reserved a credit of R$ 300 million for him, to cover his future needs (Instituto Lula, his 'lectures' paid to 'LILS' etc).

    Same system also details the allocation of funds for the acquisition of a building for the Instituto Lula (“prédio IL”), but that refers to another (the 3rd ?) Federal charge against your idol, so I won’t anticipate anything that might spoil your surprise.

    Again, if you insist on consulting sources such as Lula's site (averdadedelula), better known as “asmentirasdelula”, you'll never know the truth....

    Nov 18th, 2018 - 04:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    JB
    Lula's defence was denied access to the alleged materials
    (ii) when OAS handed the material, the FAO didn’t take any measures to assess if that material ..checked out — the construction company’s parallel accounting data was hosted in Switzerland and Sweden;
    (iv) some files were deliberately corrupted, that alone invalidates the examined material;
    (v) the copies received by the Federal Attorney’s Office were accessed directly by the institution’s servers, something that is unacceptable when it comes to forensic copies and which makes them useless as forensic evidence;
    (vi) the expert examination was not carried out in the system used by the Structured Transactions Department. The Federal Criminal Experts made the expert examinations in a system environment other than the one used daily by the Structured Transactions Department, something which made the examination completely meaningless;
    (viii) the spreadsheets in the procedure related to “weekly payment schedule” are drafts and present errors, including sums, and do not serve as a proof of the transactions recorded therein;
    (ix) they saw that OAS offshore bank statement, which contains a supposed transaction brought to the case ..does not check out with the bank transfer entries supposedly made in favor of others involved in Operation Car Wash.., accepted, and used to ground the judgment rendered by the Judge of the 13th Federal Criminal Court of Curitiba.
    Such an occurrence indicates that the bank statements were tampered with, ..makes said documents useless …The lack of entries in a bank statement whose bank account ends with a zero balance indicates that there may have been changes ..“
    http://www.averdadedelula.com.br/en/2018/04/02/lulas-defense-proves-odebrechts-material-was-tampered-with/
    ”if you insist..” They are officers of the court and compelled only to post what is true, and they haven't been challenged. You've proved that you are the least reliant source.

    Nov 18th, 2018 - 05:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB

    REF: “you'll never know the truth”:

    Of course!

    The problem continues to remain that the masses go on believing in the politicians - that's where these crooks benefit & justifiably keep on screwing the country! Under similar circumstances; it'd be an insult to the intelligence of the leaders; given an excellent opportunity, NOT to screw the country - Who wouldn't? WHY shouldn't they?

    Nov 18th, 2018 - 05:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @ :o))
    Huh. So does your friend in Brasilia send you the comics or are they just better than the ones in Luxembourg?

    I just started learning Portuguese on Duolingo because I'm tried of having to look stuff up all the time. Apparently it's important to learn to pronounce the ão sound correctly so you don't accidentally say things like “eu quero comer pau”. ;)

    @JB
    “the accts were debited by respective costs.”

    I don't remember you mentioning that. So OAS had an account for Lula and the money spent doing up the Triplex was taken from that?

    “it was only AFTER the triplex case came out in the open, that Lula became a suspect / Dilma was impeached, AND Lula decided to run”

    Timeline:

    29 Feb 2016 Lula considering return to Presidency, not charged but already being investigated.

    4th Mar 2016 Lula taken in for questioning, about triplex and I think other cases.

    9 Mar 2016 charged over triplex.

    16 Mar Moro releases wiretaps in attempt to prevent Lula joining the government and gaining immunity.

    17 March Lula is sworn in, it doesn't stick.

    So looks like Lula was being investigated over several cases, including the triplex, then he announced he was considering becoming President again, and 9 days later he was charged. Moro made a special effort to prevent him gaining immunity, which I don't think he's done for any other suspect. (I daresay all the losing election candidates are now scrambling for government jobs to keep themselves safe, though Temer might have trouble unless Bolso really gives him that ambassadorship.)

    “It is B’s prerogative to fire Moro, or any other Minister, if irreconcilable disagreements occur.”

    That's what I thought. So Moro will have much more power to root out corruption and change things in Brazil, but only if he keeps B happy. As long as he only cares about corruption among B's enemies, it's all good.

    Found this long description of it all, haven't finished reading it yet:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n08/perry-anderson/crisis-in-brazil

    Nov 18th, 2018 - 05:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    ”Presumption of innocence could not be regarded as an ‘absolute’,(Moro) he declared: it was merely a ‘pragmatic instrument’ that could be over-ridden at the will of the magistrate. Leaks to the media he celebrated as a form of ‘pressure’ on defendants, where ‘legitimate aims cannot be achieved by other methods.’
    ..the media have been monolithically partisan in their hostility to the PT, and uncritical of the strategy of leaks and pressures from Curitiba, of which they have acted as the boombox”
    Crisis in Brazil. Perry Anderson
    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n08/perry-anderson/crisis-in-brazil

    Nov 18th, 2018 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • :o))

    @DT

    Guessed right - hence my obs REF:Truth:

    The problem continues to remain that the masses go on believing in the politicians - that's where these crooks benefit & justifiably keep on screwing the country! Under similar circumstances; it'd be an insult to the intelligence of the leaders; given an excellent opportunity, NOT to screw the country - Who wouldn't? WHY shouldn't they - IF The Masses KEEP BEGGING TO GET SCREWED? If they didn't, they needn't/wouldn't elect crooks as their representatives.

    Nov 18th, 2018 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    “I don't remember you mentioning that”. Maybe not recently, ‘n not in as many words, but I'm sure I’ve already mentioned Lula’s substantial ‘credits’ within OAS (as in Odeb). This a/c was fed by the bribes, ‘n was later debited by the difference btwn the first, simpler flat that Marisa Letícia had purchased fm Bancoop (in 2005), ‘n the triplex, plus the cost of the reform (2014/15).
    The timeline : Feb/Mar 2014, M.Leticia coordinated the triplex's reform with L Pinheiro. Mid 2015 she pressured L Pinheiro to have the flat ready for Christmas, ‘n a few weeks later (Nov) she suddenly announces they didn’t want the flat (in the attempt to ‘cool’ things down), as it had already been linked to money laundering. Lula was already under investigation, but not yet charged.
    On 9 March 2016 Lula was interrogated rgdng the triplex, a week later he was charged.
    Now let’s go back a bit - Dilma was re-elected Oct 2014, ‘n soon after Lula declared he wouldn’t run again.
    Dilma’s impeachment started March 2016 ; up to then, Lula was confident he was safe. Asa the impeachment process is announced in Congress, Dilma attempts to appoint Lula her cabinet minister (Dilma's phonecall to Lula, about “Bessias” taking Lula the ‘piece of paper’ to be used ‘just in case’…).
    Moro interprets this as a clear attempt by Lula to dodge justice ‘n releases the wiretap. A day later the STF blocks Lula’s appointment. If you want to call that “a special effort“ by Moro ”to prevent him gaining immunity”, you're quite right, as I’ve already pointed out. Had nothing to do with preventing his running for prez, as the issue had never been raised ...Dilma still had 32 months to go.

    “..don't think he's done for any other suspect”…course not, never had to. Moro’s intention to combat corruption is crystal clear. Obviously, if he gets on B’s wrong side, he’s goes. That’s how it works.
    ”As long as he only cares about corruption among B's enemies, all good”…that’s ”your” speculative opinion.

    Nov 18th, 2018 - 09:55 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Terence Hill

    Pinheiro is a convicted felon who after giving three different versions received a reduction in sentence, was confined to his home, and allowed to keep some of his ill gotten gains.
    ”PAPERS GATHERED BY LÉO PINHEIRO PROVE NOTHING
    May 17, 2017
    Either because of its content or its debatable authenticity – which will be dealt through the appropriate legal procedures – the documents attached yesterday (05/15) to the Criminal Proceeding No. 5046512-94.2016.4.04.7000/PR by Léo Pinheiro, prove nothing against former President Lula.
    Lula is not the owner of the three-story apartment and did not receive any undue advantage, as one can conclude from the testimonies given by the 73 witnesses under oath. The unit 164-A at Solaris Condominium has always been a property of OAS Empreendimentos, which has always acted as its owner. The company has even given the property and its receivables as security in financial transactions.
    An alleged email of 2012 (page 17 of the supposed email list) refers to a news report of 03/04/2016 written by the journalist Fausto Macedo:
    (http:// politica.estadao.com.br/blogs/fausto-macedo/operacao-aletheia-vasculha-triplex-164a-que-lula-diz-nao-ser-dele/). How come a correspondence allegedly from 2012 makes reference to a news report published in 2016?
    The so-called “meeting records” is a one-sided and unsourced document.
    The documents – despite having no relevance to the proceeding – are part of Léo Pinheiro’s attempt to please the prosecutors in exchange for a plea bargain agreement, so that he may obtain benefits.”
    http://www.averdadedelula.com.br/en/2017/05/17/papers-gathered-by-leo-pinheiro-prove-nothing/

    Nov 19th, 2018 - 01:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @TH & JB:

    REF:
    https://i2.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/genildofaixa1.jpg?resize=580%2C164&ssl=1

    One can see very clearly that traditionally, culturally, historically; “THEY” DESERVE BRAZIL [AND VICE VERSA]!

    Nov 19th, 2018 - 10:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    You definitely mentioned the accounts before, and I've seen them in news articles too, but you didn't mention they were debited for the amounts spent on the triplex. Is there an article saying that?

    “Dilma was re-elected Oct 2014, ‘n soon after Lula declared he wouldn’t run again.”

    If so then no one was convinced (from 1 Apr 2015):

    “PT figure head Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva wants to run for office again in three years, so the story goes. This brings out the cold sweats to people south of Rio.”

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/04/01/brazil-is-going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket/

    And he publicly announced it at the end of Feb 2016, when he was under investigation but not yet charged:

    “Speaking in Rio de Janeiro on Saturday at an event to mark 36 years of the governing Workers’ Party, Lula said he would put himself forward as a candidate “if necessary.””

    “Lula left office with high approval ratings at the end of his two-term limit in 2010 and he has repeatedly expressed his willingness to run again.”

    www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/29/lula-da-silva-mulling-return-to-brazilian-presidency-in-2018

    Saturday would have been 27 Feb 2016; 6 days later Lula was taken in for questioning, 11 days later he was charged.

    At that point Dilma was already wildly unpopular and impeachment was on the cards. Even if she managed to reach the end of her term, it was doubtful Lula could get another 'post' elected. Standing himself he'd have a much better chance.

    ““..don't think he's done for any other suspect”…course not, never had to”

    No? In Brazil you have to resign your previous post to run for office, right now there are a bunch of highly placed politicians with no immunity. Seems like an ideal time to go after them, if you can prevent them being given another job by their allies.

    “that’s ”your” speculative opinion.”

    It's just logic. If Moro starts investigating B's allies, he's going to find himself on B's wrong side right quick.

    Nov 19th, 2018 - 12:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT

    REF: It's just logic. If Moro starts investigating B's allies, he's going to find himself on B's wrong side right quick.

    I don't know how serious, honest Moro is or isn't; but using the SAME logic, a birdie tweets that Moro would rather stay on the “Right Side” instead.

    Nov 19th, 2018 - 12:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Google “Conta corrente na Odebrecht complica a situação de Lula” - R$ 23 mill.

    Article of 1 Apr 2015 says “PT Luiz Inacio Lula Silva wants to run for office again in 3 years, so the story goes...”

    “so the story goes” is all it is ; don't believe for a sec tt after only 90 days into Dilma's 2nd term, Lula would've declared anything like that - which doesn't mean some PT politicians, alrdy pissed-off w/ the crisis (alrdy out in the open), might've express their desire for Lula to return. At that point, Lula hadn't expressed such any such wish, at least 'n definitely not publicly. Makes sense, as his plans were to indicate a 'post' to take over fm Dilma in 2019, but tt failed.

    “And he publicly announced at end Feb 2016, when he was under investigation but not yet charged”: - “Speaking in Rio at event to mark 36 years of the Workers’ Party, Lula said he would put himself forward as a candidate “if necessary.””

    In Feb 2016, few people believed that Dilma could be impeached (due to traumatic experience w/Collor, 92); most expected her to complete her term, rgrdless of the mess. So, Lula's “if necessary”, afaic, was just bs to calm down his followers, give D a vote of confidence 'n let her get on with the job (altho lousy). Being under investigation must've made him uneasy, but would be solved if re-elected 2018.
    To me, it's clear all along, that Lula was looking for a way out ..being re-elected would be it. If he were innocent, he'd have nothing to fear, but he knew he'd left loose ends out there, tt could be found.

    V. unlikely the L J investigation (interrogation/charges) was “hurried” due to his declarations...it's just 'the time had come to question him'.

    “don't think he's done for any other suspect”...name ONE suspect he went easy on.

    “ 'right now' there are a bunch of highly placed politicians without immunity....”
    Not 'now' , in Jan 2019.

    How r u so sure he'll 'have to investigate B's allies ? he's avoiding politicians with dirty records.

    Nov 19th, 2018 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Interesting. But if I'm reading it right, the account at Odebrecht was used for other things and the triplex was supposed to be paid for as a bribe by OAS. Makes we wonder why that was the case they chose to prosecute him over first and not the ones linked to Odebrecht.

    “don't believe for a sec tt after only 90 days into Dilma's 2nd term, Lula would've declared anything like that”

    The idea wasn't giving you the cold sweats, then? ;) But I dunno why you think it so unlikely. Lula enjoyed power and popularity as president, and he wasn't too happy taking a backseat to Dilma. Seems to me he'd need a reason *not* to stand again, not a reason to do it. And Congress had already opened impeachment proceedings against Dilma on 2 Dec 2015.

    https://www.as-coa.org/articles/explainer-how-brazils-presidential-impeachment-process-works

    No one knew if they would be successful, but it was certainly a risk, and her extreme unpopularity was well known. I suspect at that point Lula was more worried about his and the PT's political future than ending up in jail; he probably assumed Dilma could shield him by giving him a job - as they tried soon afterwards.

    ”V. unlikely the L J investigation (interrogation/charges) was “hurried” due to his declarations“

    It was certainly after his announcement.

    ”name ONE suspect he went easy on“

    I already named Cunha's wife who had a very suspicious secret account in Switzerland. This article has a list of suspects at the bottom, but it's gonna take me a long time to google even a few of them to find out how the investigations are going:

    g1.globo.com/politica/operacao-lava-jato/noticia/delacao-da-odebrecht-envolve-12-governadores-veja-quem-sao-os-citados.ghtml

    ”How r u so sure he'll 'have to investigate B's allies ?”

    Well... it's Brazil, how many clean politicians are there? Guedes is already under investigation. And without a majority in Congress, there'll be a big temptation to resort to corruption of some kind in order to get things done.

    Nov 19th, 2018 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT:

    REF: “Well it's Brazil, how many clean politicians are there?”:

    You mean they haven't yet finalized the new address of the Bribes-Department?
    http://blogs.correiobraziliense.com.br/aricunha/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2018/09/Incendio-no-Museu-Nacional.jpg

    Nov 19th, 2018 - 10:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    DT
    OAS: triplex, Atibaia home reforms ; Odebrecht : also Atibaia, Lula Institute, ‘lectures’ (many not given, but paid for); other bribes ‘n construction firms still under investigation, few details. Each bribe, relating to a specific ‘personal gain’, being prosecuted separately - reason for 7 cases against him (so far). No sense mixing triplex ‘n Atibaia.

    Why would “the idea give me cold sweats” ? Soon after Dilma’s re-election (end 2014) he declares he’ll retire – probably thinking he can continue to elect his ‘posts’ while pulling the strings backstage. He may’ve taken the back seat, but controlled the driver. By then, he believed he had a firm grip on things ‘n nothing could upset his plans. A yr later (Dec 2015) D’s impeachment became a possibility, ‘n Lower House (Cunha) formed a commission to authorize (or not) the process to continue. End Feb ‘16 Lula gives D a vote of confidence. Meanwhile, legal battles (to block impeachmt) goin on in STF. On 16 Mar 2016, STF ratifies Senate’s right to go ahead - Lula got the squits. Same day D appoints him Cab Min (immunity). Moro releases wiretap. And ‘yes’, charged days “after” his announcement. Moro was ‘ready’ to charge him, rgdless of the announcement…or d’you think 10 days would be sufficient to prepare the case/ present charges ?
    Cunha’s wife ? she was just a pawn in his hands, not involved in the bribery.

    In the ‘g1’ article, govs mentioned (in plea bargains) are suspects for different reasons : involved in PB corruption (L J), ‘n for illegal campaign donations; most are, or will soon be ex-govs, so they’ll be tried in lower fed court.

    “How r u so sure he'll 'have to investigate B's allies?” 1st, B doesn’t pick his allies, he picks his Ministers. 2nd, technical choices,not political. 3rd, Bs avoiding corrupt politicians.

    Suspicions against P.Guedes go back to 2009/13. Alleged fraud in State Co. pension funds in St. Exch. Case closed July 2018, w/o being charged; PT resuscitated it Oct. Ok, let's see.

    Nov 20th, 2018 - 08:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    It would give you cold sweats because you live south of Rio - that was the quote. I presume it was referring to Lula's unpopularity in most of the SE and the S of Brazil, those also being the richest and most developed areas.

    And Moro must have been building a case against Lula already, but knowing Lula was likely to stand for election again gave Moro a time limit to get him charged and convicted. Unlike EM, I don't believe the whole thing was a conspiracy to stop Lula becoming President again. I think Moro really did believe Lula guilty (as you did), as well as opposing him politically, and both those contributed to his determination to convict Lula before he could stand for Prez again. BUT that is exactly why Moro should not have judged the case, because he had already formed his conclusion. It's a fault with the Brazilian justice system that allows the person already involved in investigating, who has seen all the evidence before, to be the judge, rather than requiring someone uninvolved to look at it with fresh eyes. But then, if you did have jury trials it would be very hard to find anyone unbiased to serve on that jury.

    (Perhaps this is why people think I'm naive? For not believing it was all a conspiracy, or alternatively not believing it's all very simple and Lula is the biggest crook.)

    Cunha's wife was presumably not involved in the bribery, but in disposing of the money, similar to ML. And before she died Moro didn't seem inclined to let the latter off so easily.

    Guess we'll have to see what happens to the various governors etc who weren't reelected once their mandates end.

    Only thing I know about investigation of Guedes' is this:

    http://en.mercopress.com/2018/10/11/bolsonaro-s-chief-economic-advisor-under-investigation-over-fraud-accusations

    What does the PT have to do with it?

    Nov 20th, 2018 - 09:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Unstood the implication - would only make Lula's strongholds happy, N/NE. The S/SE aren’t the richest / most developed areas by chance - perhaps because 1) it's where European immigrants settled ? 2) they work harder than those in the N/ NE ? 3) they have a different mentality?

    Moro was building a case against corruption, ‘n Lula's name popped up....fact is that well before Lula made his presidential ambitions (for 3rd time) public, Moro had received incriminating evidence against Lula....without it, he'd have NO case. Anyway, looks like the PT has managed to convince many people that Moro decided Lula was guilty before receiving such evidence, presumably why you believe he had “already formed his conclusion”. He could only have formed an opinion after receiving the evidence, not before. Moro was NOT determined to stop Lula from running, as Lula was being investigated long before he was denounced/made his intentions known…and once again, Moro “investigated” nothing – the fed police/prosecutors did. Don’t know why you insist on that...simply not true.

    You say Moro opposed him politically. Millions did, but tt doesn’t mean they broke the law to beat him, fair ‘n square. Moro opposes corruption 'n thgose involved in it.

    And how is a judge, w/o analyzing the evidence (for any amount of time, which is irrelevant) supposed to conclude anything ?
    Ok if you don’t believe Lula is guilty, nothing I can say will change it…so, no point in discussing this further, and ‘yes’, you are very naïve rgdng criminality.

    Cunha’s wife was not the corupt mastermind, just an idiot who thought she was smart ‘n preferred to look the other way. ML was a whole different story, participating actively with OAS/Odeb.
    Can’t help it if you refuse to accept Lula’s guilt and keep on looking for excuses to pardon him.

    What you’ve seen re Guedes is far from the whole story, besides the case has been closed, nothing proved against Guedes, but the PT won’t let it rest.

    Nov 21st, 2018 - 03:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    “Moro had received incriminating evidence against Lula....without it, he'd have NO case.”
    Moro doesn't have a case, according to the accepted legal norms. His reliance is on the uncorroborated word of convicted felon, versus the apposing testimony of seventy-three witnesses. His fervent bias, including his failure to follow the rule of law. Is shown in the following.
    ”Presumption of innocence could not be regarded as an ‘absolute’,(Moro) he declared: it was merely a ‘pragmatic instrument’ that could be over-ridden at the will of the magistrate. Leaks to the media he celebrated as a form of ‘pressure’ on defendants, where ‘legitimate aims cannot be achieved by other methods.’
    ..the media have been monolithically partisan in their hostility to the PT, and uncritical of the strategy of leaks and pressures from Curitiba, of which they have acted as the boombox”
    Crisis in Brazil. Perry Anderson
    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n08/perry-anderson/crisis-in-brazil

    Nov 21st, 2018 - 11:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    TH
    Whatever...believe what you want....even if lies....I don't argue with ignorant, communist idiots.

    Nov 21st, 2018 - 04:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    JB
    “Whatever...believe what you want..” Would mean I acted just like you. I prefer to use the facts as a basis for argument.
    “Knowledge of the world depends on the power of drawing general inferences from individual examples; and he is the most likely to be correct who has the greatest number of facts at his command.” CHARLES WILLIAM DAY, The Maxims, Experiences, and Observations of Agogos

    Nov 21st, 2018 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I suppose the S and SE were colonised more like US and Canada, by people looking to build a new life rather than people looking to make a fortune and go back to Portugal. It probably also has to do with what is currently profitable. The north of England used to be the rich area with all the industry and the south was largely rural except for London. Now the north is the poor region due to changes in the economy and wealth is concentrated in London and the south east. AFAIK the NE of Brazil used to be very profitable growing sugar cane, why isn't it now?

    “no point in discussing this further”

    I was going to say the same thing. Unless new evidence is revealed - perhaps if/when those other charges against Lula come to trial - there isn't much else to say

    What did ML do that Claudia Cruz didn't?

    Re Guedes, the latest report I could find says they have put off his testimony until 5th December, so far from closed:

    https://g1.globo.com/politica/noticia/2018/11/06/mp-adia-para-5-de-dezembro-depoimento-de-paulo-guedes-em-inquerito-sobre-fundos-de-pensao.ghtml

    Unless you think the PT control the Federal Public Prosecutor, how can you say they have anything to do with it?

    Nov 21st, 2018 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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