MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Former President Julio Argentino Roca not good enough for a Neuquén school's name
School No. 103 in the Argentine city of Neuquén Tuesday changed its name from that of two-time President “Julio Argentino Roca” to “Rosa Alaniz,” who was one of the first teachers of the institution. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesI cannot believe. Parents of students accusing of racism J. A. Roca who was the first Argentine President that authorized the massive entry of Jewish immigrants to Argentina and gave them, by decree, exactly the same benefits as Christian immigrants (these benefits were, according to explicitly indicated in the Law of Immigration Promotion, only for the Christian immigrants) and also gave the Jews the same status of citizens as the rest of the Argentines.
Dec 18th, 2018 - 11:14 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Parents of students who attend a public school and reject the name of J.A. Roca who was the greatest promoter of the public, secular and free school in argentine history.
The ignorance of these parents is very important. Clearly, they should go back to class to study history.
It's the contribution of the politically correct idiots, who become offended at anything that does not serve their purpose. Next, they'll try to re-write Argentine history to delete Roca's name from it.
Dec 19th, 2018 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Not saying I agree with them about Roca, but there's a big difference. For example, I don't think anyone wants to erase Hitler from history, but they certainly aren't naming schools after him.
Dec 19th, 2018 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse +1The problem I see is that there is a revisionist wave, trying to re-write history...I wonder if Roca really was all that genocidal and racist, considering that the accusations refer to a period of over 100 years ago, when whatever was done, was done in accordance with the reality of the times ? Looks like some people nowadays, for some silly reason, like to impose their own very personal views of those events...
Dec 19th, 2018 - 07:32 pm - Link - Report abuse -1If you look back at history in the 2nd half of the 19th Century, which country doesn't have some person who at the time was considered a hero, because they did what they were expected to do, and that “today”, due to modified perceptions, is not considered “cool” ?
So what does that mean, should we erradicate these people from history, tear down statues, change names and re-write history ? invent fake history that pleases the over-sensitive, and then in 50 years time when perceptions change again, reinstate all the 'disgraced' heroes ?
Does it really make all that difference if the person after which the school is named was not perfect ? Afaic, it's looking for hair on eggs.
After the fall of the USSR they renamed Leningrad and Stalingrad, and pulled down most of the statues put up in communist times. I'm sure the history that Russian kids learn in school has changed a lot since then, too, but I doubt you object to any of that. After the Iraq invasion they pulled down the statues of Saddam, although no one can deny he was an important person in the history of Iraq.
Dec 20th, 2018 - 01:07 am - Link - Report abuse +1I agree we should judge people according to their own time, and teach history in as fair and accurate way as possible, but putting up statues and naming things after someone is honouring them, so it's fair enough to reconsider from time to time what sort of acts and people we want to honour.
It's no wonder that people in southern Argentina doesn't want Julio Asesino Roca's name on a school, or for that matter on anything except a mass grave.
Dec 20th, 2018 - 03:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0That Jack Bauer sees it as a revisionist wave, trying to re-write history, tells more about his knowledge of the unplesant parts of Argentine history than about what happened.
El Genocidio en Argentina de Roca https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Genocidio republicano: la conquista del “desierto” https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
La Guerra del Desierto - Los campos de concentración de la “conquista del desierto” https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Argentinian founding father recast as genocidal murderer
Julio Argentino Roca being removed from banknotes and street names for alleged role in exterminating indigenous culture https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Que los crímenes de lesa humanidad son imprescriptibles https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
La Patagonia albergó campos de concentración indígena en 1880 https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Las masacres del olvido ... la genealogía del genocidio y el Racismo de estado en la Argentina https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Domingo Faustino Sarmiento: Can we exterminate the Indians? Their extermination is providential and useful, sublime and great https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Argentina originaria: Genocidios saqueos y resistencias. campos de concentración https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Ah yes, Sarmiento. The individual who stated that the Paraguayans ought to be killed in the womb...
Dec 20th, 2018 - 08:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0The strange thing is that none of those who comment here dared to contradict my arguments. From historically proven and proven facts: JA Roca proved not to be racist and to be, together with D. F. Sarmiento, the two most important promoters of public and secular education in Argentina.
Dec 20th, 2018 - 11:49 am - Link - Report abuse -1Tolerance of religious diversity and promotion of education is a strange behavior for a “genocide” ......
Something went totally wrong with the links, only one single was repeatedted, I probably scr*wed up some how - here they are:
Dec 20th, 2018 - 12:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0El Genocidio en Argentina de Roca https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Genocidio republicano: la conquista del “desierto” https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
La Guerra del Desierto - Los campos de concentración de la “conquista del desierto” https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Argentinian founding father recast as genocidal murderer
Julio Argentino Roca being removed from banknotes and street names for alleged role in exterminating indigenous culture https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Que los crímenes de lesa humanidad son imprescriptibles https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
La Patagonia albergó campos de concentración indígena en 1880 https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Las masacres del olvido ... la genealogía del genocidio y el Racismo de estado en la Argentina https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Domingo Faustino Sarmiento: Can we exterminate the Indians? Their extermination is providential and useful, sublime and great https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
Argentina originaria: Genocidios saqueos y resistencias. campos de concentración https://3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
@Pgerman
Dec 20th, 2018 - 12:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +1It's not uncommon for the same person to do great things and also terrible things, even judged by the standards of their own time. That's what leads to these kind of arguments where historical figures are vilified and/or rehabilitated depending which is currently considered most important. I don't know enough about Roca to really have an opinion in this case, but if I found out Saddam did great things for education I still wouldn't want to name a school after him.
@Don Alberto
It wasn't you, there's a bug in the site that makes all links in a comment identical.
The only way around it is to break the links, eg by removing the http from the front. They will not be clickable but we can at least copy and paste them.
@DemonTree
Dec 20th, 2018 - 02:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Many people judge and criticize J. A. Roca based on the pieces of information that appear in mass media generally in the hands, and control, of catholic conservative nationalism in Argentina. But few people recognize that they know little about this historical figure.
Please, take into account that J. A. Roca had very strong confrontations with the Catholic Church in Argentina basically for the promotion of secular laws and even had to expel foreign priests from the country (including the representative of the Vatican Estate)
For example, very few know that J. A. Roca was not the instigator of the “Desert Campaign”. This military campaign was promoted by another president, called Nicolas Avellaneda, and had the approval of the National Congress. The objective of the campaign was to ensure the exercise of sovereignty in a part of the current Argentine territory. Part of the Argentine Army is made up of tribes, called “friendly tribes”, in a proportion of one third at that times. This campaign, contrary to what is also believed, did not assure sovereignty over Patagonia but over the central part of the current Argentine territory.
J. A. Roca was two times President of Argentina and was democratically elected at a time that Argentina had republican and democratic national constitution.
As you also mention many presidents, statesmen, politicians and even national heroes of Argentina had racist expressions that today would be unacceptable. Manuel Belgrano, Juan Manuel de Rosas, Domingo Sarmiento, Juan Domingo Peron (just to name some of them). Judging those words as if they had been said today is an extemporaneous and incorrect judgment.
Something went totally wrong with the links, only one single was repeatedted, I thought that I scr*wed up some how ... no, I didn't - Mercopress' software did, for unknown reason repeated it the first one - retry without the http(s) :
Dec 20th, 2018 - 10:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Domingo Faustino Sarmiento: Can we exterminate the Indians? Their extermination is providential and useful, sublime and great books.google.dk/books?id=PLt6BwAAQBAJ&pg=PA83&dq=%22Lograremos+exterminar+los+indios?+Por+los+salvajes+de+Am%C3%A9rica%22&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqkaPb4OvUAhVFJpoKHXaBDh0Q6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=%22Lograremos%20exterminar%20los%20indios%3F%20Por%20los%20salvajes%20de%20Am%C3%A9rica%22&f=false
Argentina originaria: Genocidios saqueos y resistencias. campos de concentración argentinaoriginaria.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/argentinaoriginaria-darioaranda.pdf
Las masacres del olvido ... la genealogía del genocidio y el Racismo de estado en la Argentina www.scielo.org.ar/pdf/runa/v30n1/v30n1a03.pdf
La Guerra del Desierto - Los campos de concentración de la “conquista del desierto” www.elortiba.org/old/guedes.html
Que los crímenes de lesa humanidad son imprescriptibles hemi.nyu.edu/journal/3.1/eng/artist_presentation/callejero/rocacuadernofinal.pdf
La Patagonia albergó campos de concentración indígena en 1880 www.lmneuquen.com/la-patagonia-albergo-campos-concentracion-indigena-1880-n113839
Argentinian founding father recast as genocidal murderer
Julio Argentino Roca being removed from banknotes and street names for alleged role in exterminating indigenous culture www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/13/argentinian-founding-father-genocide-row
Genocidio republicano: la conquista del “desierto” 3m1l.wordpress.com/2004/04/15/el-genocidio-en-argentina-de-roca-a-videla/
What is called La Conquista del Desierto -- a desert that wasn't a desert -- is one of the most shameful chapters of the Argentina history, and general Roca was instrumental in the extermination, either through battle, through massacres that included children and women, or through forced relocation or concentration camps.
Dec 21st, 2018 - 05:30 pm - Link - Report abuse +2The immense expanses of land included in the so-called Conquest ended up in the hands of a handful of well known, privileged families which reinforced an Argentine oligarchy that even today climbs to its privileges while keeping the country underdeveloped and in a state of dependency.
I commend those parents who insisted that Roca's name be dropped from their kids' school.
@Don Alberto
Dec 21st, 2018 - 05:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I admit I know virtually nothing of Argentine history - never studied it, 'n am only familiar with events which overlapped with Brazilian history, such as the “Guerra Tríplice” etc....was not defending Roca, but questioning why historical events have to be re-visited, a century or more later, with the intention of trying to appease people's sensitivity, or to 'pretend' they never existed - reason why I said “ 'wonder' if he was really that genocidal 'n racist” ?
I was curious why decades after one of the main train lines out of “Constitucion” to the southern suburbs, having been named after General Roca, has raised no eyebrows ; and I don't see the point of re-naming cities, or schools, 'n tearing down statues IF, rpt IF done with the intention of trying to ignore history. If the events occurred, whether good or bad, learn abt them, understand them in “their context”, and don't brush them under the carpet.
@DT
In the case of Leningrad, renamed St. Petersburg (its original name - or even Stalingrad, renamed Volgograd in the 60's by Kruschov), it was not re-named because of a PC agenda, or a witch hunt, trying to erase whatever might offend some sensitive people...it was the rebirth of an old country after the empire imploded.
But answering your question, afaic, I think Russian kids should learn the facts, which shouldn't be camouflaged because of the changing 'times'. B4 rushing to change names etc, each case should be analyzed to see how truly significant an issue it is.
Just an ex : George Washington owned slaves....recently, a minority group demanded that statues of prominent people from the past, who were slave owners, be torn down...So, should Washington, a.k.a. the District of Columbia, be re-named ? It's part of the past, makes absolutely no difference to anyone in the present, but all of a sudden, due to the sensitivity of some group, it could become a major issue. Is it just a matter of time before someone complains about it ?
@Jack Bauer
Dec 22nd, 2018 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Julio Argentino Roca: “Our self-respect as a virile people obliges us to put down as soon as possible, by reason or by force, this handful of savages who destroy our wealth and prevent us from definitely occupying, in the name of law, progress and our own security, the richest and most fertile lands of the Republic.” (Kenneth M. Roth. Annihilating Difference: The Anthropology of Genocide. University of California Press, 2002, p. 45.)
“we have enslaved the man, we have prostituted the woman, we have torn the child from the mother's womb, we have led the old man to serve as a slave anywhere; in a word, we have ignored and violated all laws that govern the moral actions of man. ” (... al hombre lo hemos esclavizado, ...) Aristóbulo del Valle, diputado nacional, ca. 1880 in “De centauros a protegidos”, Tesis Doctoral link: journals.openedition.org/corpusarchivos/1300?file=1 p. 105 (p. 106 in .pdf)
Much has been said about the so-called 'Malones', incursions where the indigenous warriors attacked settlements and small towns, abducted women and stole cattle. The scoundrels defended themselves! against intruders who stole their land - outrageous!
The advance of the Argentina frontier until 1867: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Mapa_ARGENTINA_frontera.png
Argentina's agressive expansion into indigenous lands + Chilean Patagonia, link: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Mapa_ARGENTINA_1881.png
the movement to remove Julio Asesino Roca's name has been delayed a century because the victims'offspring have been suppressed until they found the courage to protest about a decade ago.
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@pgerman who writes “Judging those words as if they had been said today is an extemporaneous and incorrect judgment.”
Can we expect that the perpetrators become angels if we wait a short time? Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Julio Asesino Roca - some of the nice and friendly mass murderers.
@Don Alberto
Dec 22nd, 2018 - 05:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks. Point taken.
@pgerman
Dec 23rd, 2018 - 10:40 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I'm inclined to agree with you, but considering it says kids from the Mapuche community attend the school they may well feel differently, and it makes sense to get the parents' and community's input on the name.
What happened to the 'friendly tribes' who fought for the Argentine state?
@JB
Stalingrad wasn't renamed because of rebirth of the old country, but because sometime after his death Stalin had fallen from favour - despite the fact the USSR won WWII under his leadership and a very famous and historically significant battle took place there. Apparently there is a movement in the city to change the name back, I guess to reconnect with that history.
Re Washington, I think it would be ridiculous to change things named after him. Having slaves was common back then and Washington argued against it, he also released all his slaves in his will (he could have done it straight away if he really opposed the practice, but that's still better than the other US founding fathers). I bet there is some group who would complain about it, though.
@DT
Dec 24th, 2018 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Right, NOT Stalingrad, that's why I separated it in brackets. But what I'm getting at is that names were not changed, or statues torn down on a whim of 'sensitive' minorities. Leningrad was renamed, as you said, to reconnect with history, and afaic, that's a good enough reason.
I mentioned G.Washington, because it's an example that makes my point... he, and many other founding fathers were slave owners, but to criticize them, or change what's named after them, because of what happened over 200 years ago - and was regarded as normal back then - simply because today, a minority feels offended, makes no sense.
I used GW as an example because last August, a group of idiots tore down a statue of General Robert E Lee, in Charlotsville (Virginia) because he was a “Confederate” symbol, and the sight of it 'hurt' their feelings.......It had been standing since 1924 and NOW, a few over-sensitive nuts decide it's offensive ?
It only represented history, it was neither erected, nor left there, as a symbol to offend anyone.
In fact there are even 'sensitive' idiots who want to destroy the faces of the 4 presidents carved out of the side of Mount Rushmore, in South Dakota....
IF there is something which really offends the population as a whole, suppose it's ok to remove the cause, but to satisfy a whim of some minority group with an agenda, NO.
@ DemonTree writes. “considering it says kids from the Mapuche community attend the school they may well feel differently,”
Dec 24th, 2018 - 10:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Precisely.
They feel just as happy as Jewish children would feel, if their school was called Heinrich Himmler.
Don Alberto
Dec 25th, 2018 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I got your point, don't worry. Merry Christmas to you too...
@JB
Dec 27th, 2018 - 12:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Do you think they should rename Volgograd back to Stalingrad then, to reconnect with history? It's estimated Stalin killed between 9 and 20 million people, which was *considerably* more than Roca. On the other hand, he did help the USSR win WWII, and the city became famous under that name.
As for General Lee, as I understand it he was an able commander fighting for a bad cause, much like Rommel (are there any statues of Rommel in Germany?). And ironically, he apparently opposed raising monuments to the US civil war because it would hinder reconciliation. But back in 1924 anyone who objected to his statue could have been murdered for doing so, much the same as people in Ukraine who objected to statues of Stalin. And it was erected to push a certain view of the civil war - as propaganda, more or less. If the local community votes to take it down now, shouldn't they be able to, even if some protesters object?
Also, didn't a right-wing terrorist murder someone with a vehicle at the protest about it? Just like the ISIS supporters.
@DT
Dec 27th, 2018 - 05:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Volgograd was the original name. Doubt there are many of Stalin's contemporaries still around, but if so, don't think they'd want to change the city's name back to Stalingrad, despite his contribution to defeating Hitler. It's an important part of Russian and world history, and I don't think the name was changed back to Volgograd to oblige a small group...seems the massacre of millions weighed more than his contribition to WWII.
General Lee : “an able commander fighting for a bad cause”....today it is seen as a bad cause...back then, it wasn't. In the minds of the Southerners, back then, the Civil War was a just cause....but to tear down Lee's statue, imo was stupid. On the other hand, IF the town - as you put it, the “local community”, had taken a vote and the majority wanted it removed, so be it....but that is not how it happened. The irony of it was that many of the generals from both sides, had been colleagues at West Point before the War.
In 1924, “political correctness” did not exist, so it's pointless trying to draw a parallel between today and 100 years ago.
Regarding Rommel, no statues of his were erected before or during the war, so there were none after it had been lost. Anway, afaik, he wasn't involved in war crimes.... I think every case we've discussed, has it's own peculiarities, and needs to be seen/judged within its own context.
For example, the Holocaust and the concentration camps...I don't think that anyone will disagree - well, some do - that it was horrific, yet the camps remain where they are, as a reminder....so that history does not repeat itself. But unfortunately, it usually does, and people don't learn.
In a general sense, isolated attacks, perpetrated by individual extremist nuts cases, can hardly be used to judge the majority who might be sympathetic towards a cause.
Re ISIS, it's a fundamentalist religious cause, its motivation is different, but whenever fanaticism comes into the picture, sh*t is bound to happen
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