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Netanyahu will visit president elect Bolsonaro this Friday in Rio

Friday, December 28th 2018 - 09:12 UTC
Full article 69 comments

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has left on a historic six-day trip to Brazil, the first ever visit the largest Latin American country made by a sitting premier of the Jewish state. Besides boosting diplomatic and economic ties between the two countries, Netanyahu is scheduled to hold a one-to-one meeting with president-elect Jair Bolsonaro this Friday in Rio de Janeiro. Read full article

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  • :o))

    REF: Netanyahu said: “I'm happy that we can open a new era between Israel & this superpower called Brazil”

    Did he not say it JOKINGLY?
    Does he & Bolsonaro have a lot in common?
    http://www.ftleavenworthlamp.com/storyimage/KS/20180219/OPINION/180218270/AR/0/AR-180218270.jpg&MaxW=650

    Dec 28th, 2018 - 10:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brasileiro

    When zero becomes negative ...kkk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60PBlROMdbo

    Dec 28th, 2018 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Brasileiro

    What is your point? I've been to Brazil several times and there is no doubt that despite the number of its population living in poverty, there are a lot of very wealthy Brazilians as well. Brazil has the highest ownership of private helicopters in the world. It's not uncommon to see several private jets parked in airports there either.
    So what's the point Brasileiro?

    Dec 28th, 2018 - 03:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brasileiro

    Equalitarianism. Where the difference between a rich person is not so visible, laughable, cowardly, arrogant, brutal, etc, etc ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmdvAdjUUrA

    Dec 28th, 2018 - 03:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Brasileiro

    Was this economic disparity because of President Rousseff, who came to power in 2011 or because Bolsonaro taking the presidency in 2019? Would Brazil be a more equable society if they adopted the philosophy of Cuba or Venezuela?

    Dec 28th, 2018 - 04:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @Chicureo


    U may be right!

    BUT the Nº of Private helicopters does neither indicate nor determine the Standard of Living of the masses who - day-by-day - are getting poorer and the standard of corruption is reaching new heights.
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GTBRKQGFgzI/VZCeGBBSn3I/AAAAAAAABVU/mzWXxrMBkYI/s1600/net_piada_site_humor_web_mendigo_pobre_blog_internet_comedia_fotomontagem_zoando_zua.jpg

    Dec 28th, 2018 - 10:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    :o))

    Oh I agree. I spent a lot of time in the Petrolina area and the poverty in the North East was depressing. Saying that, there are a lot of very wealthy people as well.

    Dec 28th, 2018 - 10:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brasileiro

    Chicureo

    From 2003 to 2014 this difference has greatly decreased. However, since the coup d'état perpetrated by the extreme right, the situation has deteriorated.

    Have you lived in Petrolina in what year?

    Dec 29th, 2018 - 01:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @Chicureo
    Good luck with getting any sense out of Brasshole...he is one of the brainwashed millions, who can't see one inch beyond his nose.

    Dec 29th, 2018 - 03:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Brasileiro

    Never lived there, but consulted several years consulting the planting of vineyards in the area. I have two good friends, one in Petrolina and Recife.


    Jack

    The SJW (social justice warrior) looks to progressive egalitarian paradises such as Venezuela and Cuba.

    Dec 30th, 2018 - 02:37 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • :o))

    @Chicureo

    REF: “there are a lot of very wealthy people as well”:

    I heard that a growing number of Brazilians [rich] leaving the country due to the Increasing cost of leaving + dwindling income of many rich, not-so-rich & the poor + a worsening of the Quality of Life on the whole!

    IS THAT A FACT?

    Dec 30th, 2018 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brasileiro

    Chicureo

    I look at socialist paradises like Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark. Like the whip (scourge) capitalism, these paradises are rapidly changing for the worse.

    Dec 30th, 2018 - 03:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @Chicureo
    Brasshole's perception that Scandinavia is a socialist paradise, is quite remarkable, but he fails miserably when he blames capitalism for their (supposed) change for the worse, as he obviously hasn't the faintest clue that capitalism was/is the system that afforded them their way-of-life.....not to mention their small, well-educated populations.
    Also goes to show that he is totally disconneceted from reality if at any time he believed the 9-fingered toad's idea of “democracy” would transform Brazil into something even similar to Scandinavia....or does he think that the 'Bolsa Família' would substitute hard work, and true democracy (in the “libertarian” sense of individual freedom, small government and free-market) ?
    Perhaps Brasshole believes that the Scandinavian paradise is the result of some “Bolivarian” dream ?

    Dec 31st, 2018 - 01:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    At the 2'018-End; at last the news is not at all bad for the Suffering, Suffocating & Exploited masses:
    https://www.jornaldacidadeonline.com.br/noticias/12754/deputado-diz-que-colegas-passam-necessidade-com-salario-de-r-337-mil-e-quer-aumento-igual-ao-do-stf

    Dec 31st, 2018 - 01:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Nostrils = Dumbkopf…

    Dec 31st, 2018 - 02:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Scandinavia isn't a Bolivarian dream, but it's certainly not the result of libertarian small government either. High tax and high spend, and a philosophy that a decent standard of living for the majority is more important than the opportunity for a few to become millionaires. I don't think there are too many people demanding 'do you know who I am?' over there.

    Dec 31st, 2018 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    I have always liked them and admired how they used ideal Socialism to fund “cradle to grave” care for all its citizens. High taxes were justified by popular result.

    Wonderful people, a extremely progressive egalitarian society...
    ...just try to avoid certain areas like Malmö which have become a nightmare for the ethnic Swedes.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/violent-crime-in-sweden-is-soaring-when-will-politicians-act/

    ...Something happened...

    Dec 31st, 2018 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    When I mentioned “libertarian”, was not enumerating its main characteristics as necessarily those of the Scandinavian countries, as I know that their governments are not exactly small, nor inexpensive to maintain ....to make my point, I simply chose “libertarian” (as how I would like to see 'true' democracies work) as versus Brazil's cumbersome, inefficient, corrupt government, which Brasshole has always defended, i.e, the PT....(and “I” am not excluding its predecessors either.)

    The main contradiction in his post is that capitalism, which got them to where they are today, is a “scourge”, and which in his opinion, the cause of their 'supposed' decline.

    Sure, taxation is very high, but in return you receive a functioning social safety-net, good public services, free education and health services...if taxes were not high, or if they were far lower, they would not provide all that, and the taxpayers would have to pay for it out of their salaries...in the end, the system translates into lower net or take-home salaries, but the State takes care of expensive items in other countries, i.e., education and health, in Brazil.

    Brasshole clearly does not realize that their high-standard of living is the result of many factors, not many of which are present in Brazil or the “Bolivarian” paradises.

    Relatively speaking, the number of civil servants in Scandinavian countries are very high, but I imagine they do not earn exorbitant salaries - in comparison to the private sector - nor have any 'special' privileges. They all pay high taxes but seem to be content with what they get in exchange.

    Anyway, my point was to show that Brasshole has no idea of what he's talking about, because while he praises Scandinavia's socialist paradise, he defends the PT's Bolivarian dream, as if they were the same thing.
    And I'm damned sure that no one in Scandinavia is afflicted by the “do you know who I am” syndrome.

    @Chicureo
    Malmö....the benfits of immigration w/o integration.

    Dec 31st, 2018 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    You should do an exchange. Sweden can tell you how to deliver public services without corruption, and Brazil can tell them how to integrate the immigrants. Because that's one thing the various American countries seem to do a lot better than Europe.

    Considering generally functional governments,  IMO there's a trade-off between letting the 'top' people achieve as much as possible (the Monopoly model) and getting the best standard of living on average. The US is nearer the first and Scandinavia closer to the second, though both are capitalist. But perhaps I shouldn't call the US functional since they have shut down their government *yet again*.

    Anyway, I suppose I should wish you a happy new year, though I'm feeling pretty down about how the last one went, and pessimistic about the year ahead. But then I remembered that one of my nieces was born this year and the other just turned one, so really it was a very good year.

    Dec 31st, 2018 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Jack, DemonTree and whoever else is reading this thread:
    I sincerely wish you all the best for the New Year! I'm currently with my iPad on my balcony overlooking the Pacific with another goblet of chilled Sauvignon blanc
    on a beautiful Summer's day, waiting for the fireworks tonight. Cheers!

    Dec 31st, 2018 - 10:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    It's 2019 here, so happy new year!

    Jan 01st, 2019 - 01:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    Hi❕Wishing You All, a Brighter & More PRO$PEROU$ FUTURE

    Jan 01st, 2019 - 09:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Remember how I was peacefully enjoying a goblet of white wine yesterday evening?

    New Year's has become a violent revolution here in once peaceful Viña del mar...

    Our neighbors apartment was leased to an unruly loud and rather rude group of rich spoiled delinquents that played rock music at full volume until well after 4:30AM this morning. ...At precisely 6:00AM my dearly beloved (and vengeful) life partner put on one of my children's CDs playing at full blast on our stereo “We're Not Gonna Take It” by Twisted Sister, on repeat until a very agitated Carabinero knocked at our door at 11:20AM responding to our neighbor's complaint about my wife rudely disturbing their sleep.
    Meanwhile the speakers continued to blare out, over and over again:
    “Oh we're not gonna take it
    No, we ain't gonna take it
    Oh we're not gonna take it anymore...”

    The stereo now is playing soft classical music at a low volume.

    I wisely stayed away from the debate, but I dearly wish I'd stayed in Chicureo...
    ...I must admit that the fireworks over the bay last night was spectacular...

    Jan 01st, 2019 - 03:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Lol, poor Chicureo. That makes me feel a lot better about having to spend the night in a friend's living room along with an incredibly loud snorer.

    Maybe you should try speaking to them next time, or call the Carabineros yourself?

    Jan 01st, 2019 - 08:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Yeah, I suppose that lessons could be learned by productive exchanges; not wanting to sound polemic, but just off the top of my head, I reckon that Brazil may have less of a problem with immigration, because most immigrants are pretty much like most Brazilians...

    Regarding yr comments on 'functional governments', given the choice I would prefer the “best standard of living on average”.....but one thing most 'people' in Latin America seem to ignore, is that getting there is a long process, and requires occasional impopular measures (for some), relatively honest governments, and patience.

    @Chicureo
    Luckily I've had very few such incidents with loud neighbors, but here one can call the police after 10 pm, if the noise gets out of hand or goes on for too long.....most people will tolerate moderate noise (or music - which no problem if it's good) now and again, until midnight or soon after, but after that it can become a nuiscance. But as you say, when they try to go to sleep, sweet revenge.

    DT, Chicureo & :o)), wish you guys all the best for 2019, and must say :o)), you sound optimistic for once.....keep it up !

    Jan 01st, 2019 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    DemonTree. & Jack,

    In fairness, normally you can call the police and have someone respond quickly, but on New Years with the coast packed with a huge amount of partiers, it's impossible to manage. Also, the carabinero was very polite and was smiling when my wife explained the revenge noise. “ Hell hath no fury like a woman not able to get her beauty sleep...”

    Regarding Brazil integration, the country is remarkable as it has over 200 million residents who all speak the same language and the feeling of national identity is quite high. Compare that to Belgium right now where originally there were 3 official languages, but schools there are required having to instruct immigrant children in 32 languages... I love the country, but they currently are struggling according to what I'm reading...

    Cheers!

    Jan 01st, 2019 - 10:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Are they really more similar? IIRC SP has a largish Muslim population, without any of the problems Sweden has suffered. Maybe the fact they moved there decades ago before Al Qaeda etc got started makes a difference. Or the fact Brazilians are already from varied origins makes it easier to fit in? To me it seems the countries made from immigrants like Brazil and the US have made a deliberate effort to build a national identity that new arrivals can subscribe to, as a way of integrating them. Whereas in Europe national identity was based on shared language and origin, and it was kind of just assumed everyone would share it. Chicureo brought up Belgium and that's a good example. It was created as a buffer zone, like Uruguay, and with half the country speaking French and half Dutch, it was always being pulled in two directions. But neither side would agree to switch to the other's language, and it would cause huge resentment if they tried.

    @Chicureo
    They must have had the same problem early in the 20th century in the US and indeed Brazil, trying to educate children speaking multiple different languages. I wonder how they coped back then? Ideally the schooling would start out mostly in the kid's native language and switch to English as they became fluent, like JB's school did with Portuguese, but with kids speaking that many different languages it hardly seems possible.

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB

    REF: “you sound optimistic for once”:

    As the hope dies last; I hope that at least any 1 of the promises is kept [at least partially]; without driving more of the masses closer towards the Poverty-Line. THAT optimistic I am; considering the exception-free corrupt presidents the brazilians elect - traditionally, culturally, historically, eagerly, willingly AND enthusiastically!; REF: Dancing on the streets, using the pyrotechnics, etc!

    Wasn't it noteworthy that some of the well-known corrupt VIPs were invited for the “Crowning Ceremony”? Hasn't someone said that the people invariably have the kind of a government they deserve? :o))

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 02:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    My personal experience was different as I was sent to a British school and my family always had a tradition of using English as a second language. My mother was schooled in a French speaking school in Chile. The reality however for immigrant children in the past has been to directly immerse the children into speaking the language of the country. Children quickly adapt, even our newest Haitian immigrants are apparently adapting quickly.
    Brazil has had a ver long history of homogenizing its multicultural population.
    Brazilians share a pride of national identity.

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 02:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @Chicureo

    REF: Brazil has had a very long history of homogenizing its multicultural population. Brazilians share a pride of national identity.

    Perhaps you accidentally overlooked a fact - that the basic qualification to be a politician/president is a long or a hereditary experience in being corrupt. If one doesn't have this; one can be assured of a miserable failure!

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 03:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Brazil has never had to cope with large hordes invading the country, like EU or the USA ; the first large immigration waves that arrived in the late 1800's and the beginning of the 19th century (mainly Italians, Polish, Germans, Japanese, and some more Portuguese) were necessary and were relatively organized, and they came with intention of making a better life for themselves.
    Many Germans and likewise Italians, formed their own “colonies” in the South, but did not shut themselves off from the rest of Brazil.
    Regarding the Arab population, they also arrived just before and around the 1900s.....mainly Lebanese, and Syrians...Jews have been here since the 1500s (suppose getting the hell out of Spain & Portugal where they were not too popular)...in later years, more arrived, and their main concern was to work and make money, not religion, while each new generation distanced itself further from its origins.
    Besides Brazil's native populations, Brazilians are descendants of immigrants from Europe, the Middle and Far East...and of course, the African slaves.....
    But when I mentioned 'the immigrants were more similar to Brazilians', was referring specifically to the more recent immigration, over the last 20-30 years, mainly from its neighbors, and to a lesser extent, from Africa, and in that sense they fit in with, or have a lot in common with the majority of Brazilians.
    TV documentaries about the more recent immigrants, show how the kids pick up Portuguese in no time, and the parents, realizing they've got to learn the language to survive, do pretty well. The fact their communities give them a helping hand is very important for their speedy integration.

    @:o))
    Every Brazilian government, over the last 50 years, has had to face a monumental challenge, which obviously means the solutions do not come easy, but what I want to see is sustainable progress, on solid foundations, not just sweet-talking the population into believing they are doing great.

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    One thing I personally found interesting on my first visit to Brazil is that it has the largest Japanese colony in the world.

    Corrupt inept governments and even a coup d’Etat followed by more corrupt governments sort have muddled the country's reputation, but perhaps Messieur De Gaulle best famously summed it up by declaring: “Le Bresil n’est pas un pays serioux”

    However, from my perspective, Brazil has all the potential to be a world class country if they ever get serious about it.

    I think the motto “Brasil acima de tudo, Deus acima de todos” was a brilliant political decision, just as Trump's “Make America Great Again”...

    It certainly p*sses off the liberal media when they report about it.

    My outlook is that Bolsonaro probably can do nothing worse than the PT has an there is a strong possibility he can accomplish good things for the country such as reducing unemployment and reducing crime.

    And yes, I know what the media is going berserk about: “he's a homophobe, promotes gun ownership and wants to cut down the entire Amazon forest...”

    ...I'd add he has a very good looking wife as his First Lady, but that would cause some SJW to accuse me of being sexist... ...Dilma was... ...never mind...

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 05:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Yeah, if you're comparing the Venezuelan refugees in Brazil to the Syrian etc refugees in Sweden, then I agree the former are more similar. And the Central Americans trying to enter the US are not much different to the Venezuelans, but presumably you think the US is more different from them than Brazil is? Or it might just be the sheer amount of people, countries tend to get less tolerant as the number of refugees rises.

    When I talked about integration in Brazil, I was thinking of the high immigration of 100 years ago. According to Wikipedia SP had a 55% immigrant population in 1893, and was 35% foreign born in 1920, comparable to London now (36.7% in 2011). Surely that must have caused tensions, but Brazil doesn't seem to have any problems today; does it just take time for those enclaves to disappear or did they do something different? And if you look at total immigration in the UK, a good part of it is EU nationals, similar to who went to Brazil back then. But people still object to them and voted for Brexit.

    Re the Syrians in Brazil, do you think it makes a difference whether people come to work, or as refugees? If so then it's kind of ironic that we let in the latter and not the former...

    Also, I'm surprised you'd prefer the 'best average SoL' model, given your political beliefs and how Brazil seems to be much more towards the other end of the scale. But perhaps that's why.

    @Chicureo
    Yeah, your school was a bit different. You weren't learning English because you needed to, but I assume to help in your career? Were you taught in Spanish or in English or both? I'm sure children do manage to adapt from necessity, but if the expensive private schools do things differently, it's surely because it gets better results.

    This link has some interesting information about the history of the German language and teaching in the US, and how it was suppressed during WWI:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20100624133002/http://www.ulib.iupui.edu/kade/adams/chap7.html

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @Chicureo
    “De Gaulle best famously summed it up by declaring: “Le Bresil n’est pas un pays serioux” ”

    De Gaulle's perception of Brazil was not wrong........but for the first time in decades, Bolsonaro's break from the traditional, “old” politics, has made people hopeful that things will improve, and at the same time, has definitely p*ssed-off the liberal press.

    His intention to review all federal government publicity contracts with the media, has got them sh*t-scared....during the 13 and a half years of PT administrations, the main media outlets received R$ 22.3 billion .....from $ 5,9 bi in 2003/06 , to $ 7.3 bi in 2007/10, and $ 9.1 bi in 2011/14 bi (approx. US$ 7 billion). Globo got the largest share. Over the last 3 months, they've also fired quite a few of their highly-paid artists.....

    Yesterday, while watching TV Globo's “Jornal Nacional”, my wife and I were surprised to hear their description of Bolsonaro's assassination attempt as “very serious”......considering that previously, they had always referred to it like any other violent crime...totally ignoring it's political significance, and down-playing what might have been behind it (perhaps a hit ordered by political opponents ?).
    After years of sucking up to the PT, wonder if they are now trying to curry favor ?

    Yep, best not mention the 'presidenta'.....

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @Chicureo
    I see Bolso hasn't wasted any time in transferring control of indigenous reserves to the farming ministry. Does Portuguese have the saying 'putting the fox in charge of the hen house'?

    And she's what, his third wife? These religious types are so... pragmatic about who they support. I admit though, I'm gonna miss Temer and his startling resemblance to Christopher Lee's Dracula.

    @JB
    You think the press pandering to whoever is in power is a good thing? I'm just hoping he manages to piss them off so much that they won't be willing to cover up his (government's) faults in order to curry favour, otherwise you'll be back to never knowing what's really going on.

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 07:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB:

    REF: “what I want to see is sustainable progress, on solid foundations, not just sweet-talking the population into believing they are doing great”:

    Certainly! Who doesn't? However I'm a little bit sceptical. That's only due to The Catch: “history repeating itself”; not neglecting the good old tradition; rigidly followed not only by the politicians but also by the masses. As they also say:
    - it takes two to tango
    - People DO have the kind of a government they deserve
    : That's why I'm just a little bit sceptical.

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 09:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    DemonTree

    I am the third of four generations that studied at the Grange School in Santiago. http://www.grange.cl/en/ We're a large farming family, but by the time I was ready for university studies, my parents were in serious financial problems (as so were many at that time) so I entered the naval academy on a full scholarship. Being fully fluent in English was an enormous advantage then because Chile and the UK were very interdependent on each other especially at that time. That's how I ended up in the signals corps.

    It's perhaps difficult to grasp, but many private schools predominately teach their curriculum in German, or French, or Italian, with Spanish taught as a language course. There are some very exceptional publicly supported schools as well, but are notoriously difficult to enter without political sponsorship. That's where many of our socialist politicians send their children.

    We have a large diaspora of Palestinians here that have done remarkably well, but they're predominately Christian. They have a huge country club in Santiago and their own football team.

    Jack

    Amazing about the funding of the media. Very interesting...

    ...and you're correct, but I do think the First Lady is very attractive...

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Huh, did you only join the navy cause your family was hard up? That kind of sucks if so. I forgot you have to pay $$$ for university in Chile, unlike Brazil and Argentina.

    And third of four generations means you sent your own kids there too? It is hard to understand why there are so many foreign language schools and why parents would want to send their kids there. I could understand it if they were expats and their kids don't speak the language, but that wasn't the case for you and doesn't seem to be in general?

    I think our leftist politicians could do with some of those selective state schools, IIRC Corbyn divorced his wife because she insisted on sending their kids to private school and Blair got flack for the same reason. State schools in London are notoriously bad.

    Reading that website reminds me of going through CVs, somehow. I suppose they do have to advertise themselves to prospective parents. Did you stay at that same school from 4 - 18, and take O and A levels?

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    DemonTree

    You're very correct that higher education is expensive. (There are national scholarships for students who test well in a national exam.) Argentina used to have outstanding highly rated universities when I was a student. Sadly they're not so highly rated well today.

    My children indeed went to my same school. As I said, it's common for Chilean families to send their children to private schools with many taught in German, English, French and Italian. Normally children attend the same school from kindergarten to their 12th year.

    Speaking the way you pronounce Spanish is just as it is in the UK. (Yes, also your class in society is determined by the way you speak.)

    During the Allende years, almost all our farmland was expropriated and family was in near complete bankruptcy when I grabbed a lifeline to the academy. (Afterwards, my family recovered part of our farmland and prospered during the mid '80s.)

    I really owe a debt to Argentina, because at the time of the threat of invasion, prompted my country to actively recruit fluent English speaking candidates.

    https://www.thisischile.cl/the-wide-range-of-school-alternatives-in-chile/?lang=e

    Jan 02nd, 2019 - 11:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB

    REF: Every Brazilian government, over the last 50 years, has had to face a monumental challenge, which obviously means the solutions do not come easy

    Actually, that's true! But please consider:
    - it takes two to tango
    - People DO have the kind of a government they deserve. Hence they made a RIGHT choice to elect a president, who during his 28 years of Political-Life, did absolutely NOTHING for the masses!

    Jan 03rd, 2019 - 11:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @Chicureo
    “Likewise, colonies have strongly influenced education in Chile. This means that there are British, German, Italian, Arabian and Jewish schools, among others, where these languages are generally taught as a second language.”

    That's the sort of thing that has conservatives in the US and UK shitting themselves. Aren't Chileans worried that people won't be integrated if they keep sending their kids to these schools teaching in their own language?

    “There are also several establishments managed by religious congregations, mainly Catholic congregations such as the Congregation of the Sacred Heart, the Company of Jesus and the Opus Dei prelate.”

    I thought Opus Dei was something made up by Dan Brown. Are those schools where they train the secret albino assassins? ;)

    The UK doesn't really have scholarships, if kids now want to go to Uni they have to borrow tens of thousands of pounds from the government. I guess you were lucky you at least got to finish your school education.

    Do you think the government taking your family's land is different to them taking it from the native people?

    Jan 03rd, 2019 - 11:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    DemonTree

    My lawyer sends his children to an Italian school: http://www.scuola.cl/sivm/
    You must remember, Chile is a predominately Catholic country and there are several congregations focused on education, even Opus Dei. (This includes a private state of the art university)

    Chileans have very strong national pride, but many ethnic groups remain proud of their heritage.

    I'll ignore the question about land expropriation as the social and political complications involved are far too complicated to discuss on this forum.
    (As I said a long time ago, we experienced an unfortunate civil war in my country.)

    Jan 03rd, 2019 - 12:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    It's funny, right-wingers in this country are opposed to foreign lanuage schools, and believe the various ethnic groups must abandon their heritage in order to become British. Perhaps the difference is in what it means to be British vs what it means to be Chilean?

    “I'll ignore the question about land expropriation as the social and political complications involved are far too complicated to discuss on this forum.”

    What a cop out. But I suppose it means your answer is yes.

    Jan 03rd, 2019 - 02:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    “the C.Americans trying to enter US are not much different to the VZs, but presumably you think US is more different for them than Brazil is?”….w/o a doubt. Even those immigrants' perception is that the US is better for them…only problem is they can’t just walk in, as they do in Brazil. But in both the US 'n in Brazil, besides integrating, many immigrants maintain strong community ties.
    In the 1890s, some S.Paulo neighborhoods, had far more immigrants (mainly Italians) than ‘original’ inhabitants, and by what I’ve read, this didn't cause problems…the immigrants adapted quite well ‘n were soon facing the same problems as locals, i.e., total lack of worker rights.
    Immigration from the M.East has always existed, so for Syrians refugess ariving now, it makes little difference ; Quite a few are qualified professionals, just need to learn Portuguese to be able to fend for themselves. Different to most Haitians 'n Africans, who have few professional skills.
    Rgdng the ‘best average SOL’ model, besides taking no pleasure in seeing people living in substandard conditions, with absurd social contrasts ‘n the resulting problems, anyone sensible would prefer it.
    “You think the press pandering to whoever's in power is good ?” Definitely not…it shopuld be impartial, ‘n honest…something that today, most of it isn't. I don’t like the idea of being misinformed - by anyone.

    Ryr comment to Chicureo, “hard to understand why there're so many foreign language schools 'n why parents would want to send their kids there”…don’t know abt Chile, but in São Paulo, with a considerable number of foreigners (Germans, Italians) arriving late 1800s / early 1900s, reckon the idea of carrying on with their traditions, would appeal to most parents (especially those working under temporary-contract).

    Re Chicureo's position on the land, it's complicated, and circumstances were totally different.

    @:o))“History repeats itself”…yes, because most people are incapable of learning from it.

    Jan 03rd, 2019 - 03:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB

    REF: “History repeats itself”…yes, because most people are incapable of learning from it:

    Exactly! That's a Tremendous Advantage to the politicians!

    Jan 03rd, 2019 - 03:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @ :o))
    What's the government like in Luxembourg? Equally corrupt?

    @JB
    “Even those immigrants' perception is that the US is better for them”

    It's richer and has a lot less crime, so yeah. If Mexico didn't have the same problems with poverty and murder they would probably settle there instead.

    It makes me wonder what the real problem is here, because the things people blame our immigrant problems on - them living in their own neighourhoods, continuing to speak their own languages, and for the Muslims, having their own religion - also seem to be/have been the case in Brazil. And I think that was Merkel's idea letting in the Syrian refugees, to get qualified professionals who would soon become useful workers, but it definitely didn't work out as she hoped.

    I can understand why there were lots of foreign language schools back in 1900, but less so today. Maybe they still like to carry on with their traditions, despite probably hardly remembering them themselves.

    Re best SoL, not everyone agrees. Some people just want the chance to make and keep as much money as possible, and in their opinion other people should do the same. The US reluctance for 'socialised' healthcare is an expression of the same philosophy.

    As for the land issue, I thought Chicureo might have some sympathy for those whose land is threatened with being taken from them and given to others by a new government, all in the name of progress. What do you think the difference is between taking land from farmers and taking it from the reservation established for a tribe?

    Jan 03rd, 2019 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    DemonTree

    “Do you think the government taking your family's land is different to them taking it from the native people?”

    As I said, the subject is incredibly difficult to explain to someone that never experienced it, but a background document that intelligently explains how and why the majority of my family's farmland was expropriated by the Allende government:
    50 years after the Agrarian Reform in Chile: reflections and lessons
    https://ageconsearch.umn.edu/record/277144/files/1107.pdf

    We eventually years later were partially financially compensated with tax credits by the Pinochet government, but far considerably less than the actual loss. We never recovered our land, but instead progressively began buying other failed properties instead.

    During the dark days of the Unidad Popular, our country became somewhat like Venezuela is today. Extremely limited rationed items to purchase when they're available and long lines of frustrated people waiting outside shops/supermarkets to buy whatever was offered with near worthless money. (Yes, I know what the USA was doing to destroy our economy at that time.)

    During the Unidad Popular, our country went from being a net food exporter to no longer even able to feed our population. Marxist price controls made it uneconomical to farm due to low prices. During that time we were rewarded by a month long visit of our Comrade Fidel Castro. Soviet bloc countries started sending us “wonderful things” (I remember suspect wheat flour, rare canned hams from Poland, Romanian farm tractors, even occasional East German automobile tires, but no toilet paper... we actually used old catalogues as a replacement.)

    Meanwhile, Chilean farmlands became fallow and no one had capital to plant crops that would not compensate the cost of production due to the government controlled price controls.

    Productive large farms planted in wheat and corn in 1969 became in un-arable small plots by 1971.

    That's why I detest Marxists.

    Jan 03rd, 2019 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT

    REF: “What's the government like in Luxembourg? Equally corrupt?”:

    They are learning [successfully too]!

    Jan 03rd, 2019 - 08:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    “....and for the Muslims, having their own religion - also seem to be/have been the case in Brazil...”
    Do not recall any such case in Brazil. What I've seen of Muslim communities in EU is not nice...enclaves, out-of bounds to non-Muslims, where Sharia law prevails as a parallel justice system, and anyone with sense, keeps away from. Insidious.
    If Merkel hadn't gone overboard, opening the flood gates, they could've let them in slowly, weeding out the bad eggs. I'm sure she now regrets her 'bleeding heart' humanitarian moment.

    Regarding the foreign language schools, now so-called international schools, they're still in high-demand - the quality of their teaching is far above the rest, plus you will really learn a second language.

    “Re best SoL, not everyone agrees”.....just human nature, taken to an extreme....expressed well in the title of the film called “I'm alright Jack”.

    Just fyi, the cost of socialized healthcare in the US, as proposed by Bernie Sanders would have a price-tag of US$ 32 trillion over 10 years. Who'll foot the bill ?

    Regarding yr question on the indigenous land, imo there are big differences.....going back 200 years ago, the land was sitting there, not effectively occupied by indigenous populations - which made it attractive to governments and/or powerful private citizens.....if you want to go one further, the land on which São Paulo is built once “belonged” to the indians...what's the solution, give it back ? No amount of money can pay for it.
    Anyway, different to someone buying land legally, turning into something productive, just to have it expropriated by government, paying pennies on the dollar - or simply confiscated - over an ideological dispute. Here, the indian reservations were marked out under the guise of righting a wrong (political correctness), w/o the slightest consideration as to the implications, or what the indigenous populations really needed to survive decently. Much like the BF...give 'em land 'n forget them.

    Jan 03rd, 2019 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    “What I've seen of Muslim communities in EU is not nice”

    Have you seen if for yourself or just heard about it on the news?

    I agree Merkel should not have let people flood in with no checking. Half the people who came were neither Syrians, nor refugees, and besides that it didn't help the most needy since they couldn't risk the trip.

    I think there is a legitimate debate when it comes to how to structure society. At one end you have communism where no one is motivated to do anything as there is no reward, at the other the sort of 19th century capitalism where children work down mines while a few factory owners live in luxury. Somewhere in between you end up with a decent society, but there must be various points that can work, with their own advantages and disadvantages.

    As for US healthcare, there are savings to be made, but Americans may not like them. Besides laying off millions of admin workers in the insurance and healthcare industries who would become unnecessary, there would have to be a reduction in diagnostic measures and screening tests. At the moment US doctors will order any tests and treatment the insurance will pay for, whether appropriate or not. This is both to maximise their own income, and because there is a risk of being sued for under-treating but not over-treating. While this does not improve patient outcomes, it probably does reassure them, and I don't think they'd be happy to give it up. Besides that, they could make big savings on drugs by negotiating as a block, though it may lead to higher prices for the rest of us.

    I replied about the land on the other thread, but it sure was occupied. 'Not effectively defended' against invaders with horses and steel is the real truth. Giving SP back is of course impossible, but that doesn't make it right to take the little that's left, does it?

    But tell me, before the current government brought them up, did you have any objection to the reservations?

    Jan 03rd, 2019 - 11:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT:

    RE: “I agree Merkel should not have let people flood in with no checking. Half the people who came were neither Syrians, nor refugees, and besides that it didn't help the most needy since they couldn't risk the trip”:

    100% True!

    A better solution could have been: more serious + combined NATO+UN Efforts in ending the proxy-war and creating conditions for the refugees to return safely back to their own homelands. But who had any inclination - the guts - to twist the tails of Iran+Russia?

    Jan 04th, 2019 - 09:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Have only seen photos and read very few reports on Muslim protesters....virtually no coverage of it on Brazilian TV .....Presume yr question arises because they are grossly exaggerated ?

    Structuring society until the great majority enjoys a relatively good SoL, is a long process in which not only the government, but the people are conscious they must contribute towards it, 'n results do not appear overnight. And needless to say, governments, whether L or R, cannot implement an increase in SoL by decree, or through populist policies. It takes generations, and everyone pulling in the right direction. Capitalism has it's faults, but until something better comes along....

    Rgdng socialized healthcare in the US, I only mentioned the cost because of your “The US reluctance for 'socialised' healthcare is an expression of the same philosophy”...as if US healthcare was deliberately structured,'n kept as it is, to favor the rich 'n screw the poor ? Sounds improbable....healthcare is expensive, anywhere, subsidized or not...everyone foots the bill, either directly, or indirectly through taxation. No such thing as a free lunch...even here, premiums increase at rates 3 or 4 times inflation....hard to understand, as the single highest cost is manpower, the salaries of which are always readjusted below inflation. Don't know why, in the US, healthcare is so expensive...greedy doctors ? expensive malpractise insurance ? too many rules resulting in over-treatment ? Q : in US, who foots the bill, patients or taxpayers ? but one things clear, dwindling resources are being continually stretched to cover an ever-increasing demand...whatever the solution is, it'll never please everybody.
    Re the land, 'all' fully occupied ? doubt it....but ok, armed encroachment occurred in places; Never agreed with 'how' the land was 'given back'...let's be realistic, we're in the 21st C, so how does giving 1800 sq kms of jungle, on average, to each indian, going to help ? More, next post.

    Jan 04th, 2019 - 06:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Jack

    I mentioned in another Brazil thread: ..it was the Marxist-Socialists that explained the justification of expropriating our farm that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...

    Isn't that what our socially progressive contributors agree with?

    Why on earth then is it so outrageous that each indigenous native is being allotted 1800 sq kms for each native? Why are left leaning progressive Greenpeace vegans now going bat guano crazy because Brazil democratically elected a right-wing President?

    Jan 04th, 2019 - 07:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Chicureo the flamer
    “how and why the majority of my family's farmland was expropriated by the Allende government”
    “The agrarian reform carried out between 1965 and 1973 was the result of legitimate problems in pre-reform rural society, of which slow agricultural growth was one major determinant. Ultimately the reform failed to achieve its initial objectives in terms of accelerating growth but had a profound social and political impact in rural area”
    By the time of the Allende government there was 50% malnutrition. So they had to something that would alleviate this situation. So rightly or wrongly it's not difficult to see why the government felt that those who appeared to be beneficiaries and even perhaps the instigators of this economic disparity. Had a greater obligation in providing a remedy.
    “by 1970. There was, however, consistent discrimination against low-income groups. As Chile became industrialized, there were no significant changes for the majority of the population who lost purchasing power by more than 1/3 from 1952 to 1970. Rural areas showed the most stratification of the economic classes with large landowners who comprised 2% of the rural population, controlling more than 65% of the land. 25% of the rural population, i.e., substance farmers, held approximately 1% of the cultivated land. The Chilean agricultural sector could not keep up with the population growth of the area,... ”
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/468441

    Jan 05th, 2019 - 02:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    Netanyahu:
    - on his way out from Israel
    - and on his way into Brazil
    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-planting-the-seed-of-netanyahu-s-immunity-from-corruption-charges-1.6551048

    Jan 05th, 2019 - 11:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Yeah, there's some not-so-accurate info in the media, and some downright lies on Youtube and from the US President (who bizarrely claimed the whole of Birmingham was a no-go region). I can't speak for the rest of Europe, but while there are problems in the UK, it's a lot more complicated than that. Muslims here can use Sharia law to settle disputes among themselves - it's meant to be voluntary, but I imagine there's a lot of social pressure within their communities to comply, and for that reason I tend to oppose it. But AFAIK there's no areas you can't enter.

    The real problem is radicalisation, aka recruitment for ISIS and other terrorist groups, which happens in certain mosques, online, and in jail, and no one really knows what to do about it.

    Re US healthcare, Isn't it more that many Americans would prefer to pay for themselves, rather than be forced to put their money in a shared pot? If someone can't afford it, that's their problem. (Plus they don't trust their government to administer it, do they think they're living in Brazil?) Of course they end up paying anyway, since hospitals must give emergency treatment and they get it back by increasing prices for those who can pay.

    As for why it's so expensive, the reasons I gave above, plus all of yours: doctors are paid much more in the US than in Canada (but education is also $$$ in the US, they have huge student loans to pay off); malpractice suits, and the over-treatment they induce (it's safer to say you tried everything, even if it's actively harmful to the patient); drug costs are out of control, other countries negotiate as a block but this is forbidden by law in the US due to lobbying by drug companies.

    And who foots the bill? Patients AND taxpayers. The US provides publicly funded care for the elderly, the poor, and veterans, paid for by taxes. It costs MORE per taxpayer than the NHS, and still most people have to pay their own way! But whoever pays, they'll need to cut costs and that will be hard.

    Jan 05th, 2019 - 12:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DemonTree:

    REF: “they'll need to cut costs and that will be hard”:

    So, can't they import the Cuban Medics or maybe the spiritual healers from South America?

    Jan 05th, 2019 - 01:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Most of the world admire the social equatable healthcare systems in much of Europe and Canada. There are however serious deficiencies that result people to seek private care instead.

    In my country, public healthcare is woefully inadequate, but still remains surprisingly better than given in most of Latin America. (Private care conversely here is very expensive, but world class.)

    Cuban doctors are grossly overrated and inadequately educated.

    Jack, is it true that the WHO actually debated against providing child inoculations for various diseases because it might “affect the societal culture” of an indigenous isolated tribe? As we all are taught, most of the “Indians” were decimated by small pox.

    Jan 05th, 2019 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @Chicureo
    Yes, in the UK long waits for non-urgent treatment are the major reason people seek private care. If you can afford it you can simply pay at a private hospital to avoid the waiting list. Or you can get health insurance; it's not expensive at all because it's a supplement to the NHS rather than replacing it.

    The big problem is underfunding. Similar countries like France and Germany spend a lot more on healthcare than the UK, and each new innovation (as well as the ageing population), just makes it more expensive.

    Do you have private health insurance? If so, you have the same problem as Jack with the premiums rising faster than inflation?

    :o)) 's suggestion of importing Cuban doctors is actually close to what the UK does to reduce costs. A large portion of NHS staff come from foreign countries, and we don't train nearly enough ourselves to supply the need. This is going to be a problem after Brexit when economics collides with people's expectations of lower immigration.

    As for your WHO story, sounds like clickbait invented to outrage conservatives.

    Jan 05th, 2019 - 03:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @Chicureo
    “it was the Marxist-Socialists...justification of expropriating... needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...” Marxist BS. How in hell, are 100s of small plots farmed by individuals (but not owned by them) going to attend demand ? It's clear today, that agribusiness is the only solution.

    The goals of Marxist theory, replacing capitalism with socialism (all production in the hands of a 'capitalist' State, not individuals...is crap), and attaining class inequality through economic revolution....totally ignores the fact that no two humans are the same...they have different ideas 'n natural skills, 'n desires. But who cares, they'd all be 'equal'....i.e., poor.

    The notion that 'giving' each indian 1,800 sq kms is the remedy for problems caused in the past, is just a ridiculous, fake guilt-trip by activists totally disconnected from reality. How does it benefit the indians ? they can't chop it down (legally), or sell it...

    Can't say I'm familiar with WHO debates on whether to inoculate indigenous children, but it's notorious that what eliminated most of the indigenous populations in the New World were the diseases brought by Europeans (lack of immunity).
    As it's impossible to undo the effects of 'being discovered', which appear to be contributing to their slow but sure deterioration, what's the solution ? put them back in 1000s of sq km of jungle, to fare for themselves, until they die off ?

    @DT
    The fact the Muslims are trying to carve out their own country within others, is sure to end up badly....unless the “Europeans” 'give in' and offer the other cheek..

    I don't know what Americans prefer, but the ideal solution would be that everyone be able to pay for their own medical care, but that is not a practical approach, knowing millions can't. So, the bill will always be footed by the taxpayer. And it's reached a point whereby, to change the current structure, to make it more affordable (to all) isn't going to happen. One day, it'll implode.

    Jan 05th, 2019 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    “agribusiness is the only solution”

    I thought you wanted to give the Indians small plots to farm? Sounds like you're setting them up for failure.

    “The notion that 'giving' each indian 1,800 sq kms is the remedy for problems caused in the past”

    No one proposed such a thing. They decided not to TAKE the land from those few Indians who hadn't already been dispossessed, so they could continue to live in the jungle as they had been. And forest is not useless to people who know how to live off it, but if you believe that then why does your family own a piece of the Atlantic forest??

    Re inoculation, I believe Funai have the difficult job of preventing widespread deaths from unfamiliar diseases in isolated regions, among people who don't speak Portuguese or any known language. But your new government was complaining their healthcare cost too much, so I suppose there will be cutbacks there too.

    I'd say a lot of people are going to die because of Bolsonaro, but in Brazil lots of people are already dying...

    As for US healthcare, one party tried to fix it, and the other refused to cooperate, did all they could to block and screw it up, and after they gained power sat on their hands and did nothing. Now they have removed one of the two pillars of Obamacare, so it is guaranteed to implode sooner or later. Too bad for Americans.

    By the way, I don't know if you replied to the two earlier threads that closed, but if you did I missed it.

    Jan 05th, 2019 - 07:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Jack and DemonTree

    I'm very fortunate as besides my military medical benefits, my family is privately insured. Private healthcare, although expensive, in Chile is excellent.

    We too have our share of “foreign” doctors, including several excellent ones from Venezuela. To my knowledge, not one Cuban trained doctor that's attempted to pass our Medical Licensing Examination has been successful. (If you can find an exception, please let me know.) There are a few Cuban doctors that practice in highly advanced Cuban clinics, because we are told so in the media, but none have showed up here in Chile. (I read that Cuban medical doctors in their proletariat paradise nation earn US40 a month.)

    Small individual farm crofts are not economically sustainable, even larger 60 hectare high value crop producing farms are completely unable even to modestly support a family. That's why the rural poor reliably seek weekly wages in the big cities.

    If you want to focus on high value intense production with drip irrigation, you should be prepared to invest US30 to 40 thousand per hectare. (That's without purchasing the land and doesn't include the annual costs of production.). Europeans and North Americans, Australians, etc... have crop insurance, It doesn't really exist on my continent.

    You have to live the experience of when an unseasonable weather change nearly wipes out your entire yearly income to understand why many people abandon rural life.

    The economics of farming is brutal. You have to be diversified with a considerable operating capital line of credit and it's still like playing the roulette in Monte Carlo.
    It becomes even more challenging in Latin America where we have bouts or political change, large swings in the interest and currency rates.

    Jan 05th, 2019 - 08:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “If you can find an exception, please let me know.”

    This article says nearly 80% failed the test, which sounds pretty poor, but that's still 101 doctors who passed that year:

    http://en.mercopress.com/2012/01/25/most-cuban-trained-doctors-fail-basic-test-to-practice-medicine-in-chile

    “even larger 60 hectare high value crop producing farms are completely unable even to modestly support a family”

    That surprised me. In the UK the average farm is of 81 hectares, and 45% of holdings are under 20. I guess they must be relying on EU subsidies, which is a tad worrying in present circumstances...

    But certainly no one poor will have a chance of making the kind of investment you say is necessary, and I know farming is difficult and vulnerable to outside factors at the best of times. It makes me wonder why your family decided to get back into it after their disastrous experience under Allende? I'm kind of surprised you didn't try and leave the country, actually.

    Jan 05th, 2019 - 09:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Don't twist my words...never insinuated, far less said to give indians small plots to farm...I suggested re-creating far smaller reserves (compatible with number of indians in each location) 'n closer to civilization, to let them take advantage of civilization - if they want to.
    I wrote “The notion that 'giving' each indian 1,800 sq kms is the remedy for problems caused in the past”, you replied “No one proposed such a thing”.....that was exactly what was behind those wanting the large areas demarcated. Purely a way to relieve them of their 'guilt' 'n make peace with “what their 'nasty' ancestors did”.
    But considering that in 1500, indians occupied 100% of the territory, and now, with no idea how much land they really need, in order to survive (presumably fishing /hunting) should we perhaps pass the whole Amazonian area (in Bzl) - approx 2 million sq kms - to the 900,000 indians and kick out all the settlers, i.e., the non-original inhabitants ? Is that even what the indians really want ? Have my doubts.
    As to our piece of land, it is outside the Atlantic forest strip, but nevertheless is a 'protected' area, around the city, where only sustainable projects that don't destroy nature are allowed. It's part of the onus when you buy it.

    “I'd say a lot of people are going to die because of Bolsonaro...” I am not going to discuss such a silly comment.......will only add that if people are going to die - in larger numbers than they are already - they will be criminals....and afaic, good !

    There were two earlier threads which was unable to answer :
    1) Mercosur leaders agree need to reform..
    2) Brazil's development bank must return...

    @Chicureo
    You've diagnosed the problems of farming pretty well.....small areas are usually anti-economical (depends on the crop)...people think farming is sunny days, lots of rain at the right time, sure profit, when it can be disastrous.....

    Here too, many Bzln doctors who studied in LatAm countries, failed the test (MLExam)

    Jan 05th, 2019 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    In another thread you wrote:

    “that's why I think that perhaps giving them “REASONABLY”-sized plots of land, to work if that is what they desire, or any other well thought out solution that attends their CURRENT needs, might be better”

    That's why I thought you wanted to give them plots to farm. Okay, not small ones, but illiterate hunter-gathers are unlikely to be able to set up an agribusiness no matter how large a plot they are allowed to keep.

    And more contact with civilisation is exactly what they don't need. That means people spreading disease, miners polluting the rivers, farmers cutting down the trees leaving isolated islands of forest, not enough game and fish left to sustain them, so they must search for other means to survive, or fight among themselves over what's left. In theory, they should benefit from civilisation, but it practice - as seem many times from long ago until today - they always suffer harm and often die. Do you really want to experiment with people's lives, making changes that can't be undone, when the primary aim is not their benefit but yours?

    “Purely a way to relieve them of their 'guilt' 'n make peace with “what their 'nasty' ancestors did”.”

    Or they wanted to avoid doing the exact same thing, in places where the original inhabitants were still living in their traditional way. Give them a chance, perhaps, to recover their population from the deaths caused by outside diseases. And preserve as much of the Amazon as possible at the same time.

    Anyway, why did your family buy land that you're forbidden to develop?

    As for more people dying, besides the Indians, in 2006 Mexico decided to crack down on crime and sent the army to deal with the drug cartels. You can see how successful they were here:

    https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/05/09/why-mexicos-murder-rate-is-soaring

    I truly believe more innocent people will die as a result of B's election. I hope I'm wrong.

    Re earlier threads, OK, just wanted to check.

    Jan 06th, 2019 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    Medical Treatment - affordable by all - can be possible; only if the draining of public funds is under control [obviously, the drainage can be stopped 100%]:

    http://blogdoaftm.web2419.uni5.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/820x615x1950-820x615.jpg.pagespeed.ic.jw0sK5sLUd.jpg

    Jan 06th, 2019 - 12:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Am not advocating they be “removed”, to even reasonably-sized pieces of land ..unless they think they have a vocation for subsistence farming, as I don't see them competing with the agribusiness...perhaps they'd like 50 hectares/ familiy, to build a decent infrastructure to survive very comfortably ; Presume their 'removal' would demand some type of compensation....isn't that what this is all about ? a solution that settles the activists guilt (which depends on how much influence they'll have now) and make the Indians happy ? I don't know what the solution to the problem is - but abandoning them to their own luck, in enormous reserves, invaded by drug traffickers / loggers, is not one.

    Today, I don't see them surviving without a minimum of contact with civilization, unless they intend to live as in 1500. IMO, the current reserves are not the solution, but it's the indians who should decide what to experiment - reserves (which exclude civilization) or civilization (which excludes reserves), or some intermediary solution (small reserves nearer civilization) ..but if the brazilian “jeitinho” has already contaminated them, they might want the best of both worlds.

    “Or they wanted to avoid doing the exact same thing, in places where the original inhabitants were still living in their traditional way”......sounds nice, but I don't think that even the activists considered the possibility of leaving them 'hidden' for the next 1000 years...
    And as for those who've already been in contact with civilization ‘n want to stay, are concerned, are they to be banned from parts of their communities (who choose to remain in the jungle) in the name of keeping out disease ? I think it's a but late to turn the clock back to 1500.

    My father liked the idea of having land, to invest 'n to potter around in on weekends, no intention to develop economically...besides, it's too hilly for mechanized agriculture.

    By wiping out organized crime is the only way to avoid another Mexico.

    Jan 06th, 2019 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “Today, I don't see them surviving without a minimum of contact with civilization, unless they intend to live as in 1500.”

    Some of them are still living that way. Some had no contact until the 1950s, some are still refusing contact today. If you want them to decide, well, those groups are expressing their opinion pretty clearly.

    The Amish and Mennonites choose to live as though it's 1500, and no one is trying to force them to enjoy the benefits of civilisation. I suppose the Indians will join it eventually, but what's the rush? If left alone, they know how to take care of themselves, but in society... well, how does an illiterate adult with no useful skills fare in Brazil today? Many of them don't even speak Portuguese. The only thing I think might be of benefit to them is a school for the children, so they can learn about the outside world and the basic skills necessary to survive in it. That way they would have a real choice whether to leave or stay.

    As for security, I thought B was planning harsher measures against criminals? He's promised to protect big farms against the MST, can't he protect the reserves against illegal gold miners and loggers, too?

    And I don't think copying what Mexico did is a good way to avoid becoming like it! After 12 years without achieving it's goals, the Mexicans have elected a president with a radically different plan, so we shall see how that goes. Has your new government at least mentioned Mexico's war on drugs, and what they think they did right and what didn't work? It would be nice to know if they have taken any lessons from it.

    Re your land, makes sense to me. Maybe you could build ziplines like in Costa Rica and make a tourist attraction.

    Jan 06th, 2019 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    ”Some of them are still living that way (as in 1500)“. Ok, but I'm not sure, inview of the possibly very little contact, if they're actually inside demarcated areas, or not. However, when/if civilization gets closer to these areas, the issue could start all over again.

    You can't compare the Amish to the Indians....the former, although they refuse most modern-day amenities, they are not lost in the wilderness, and DO enjoy a bit of civilization.

    ”What's the rush” ? Don't think it's a matter of deciding the 'right' moment (sooner or later), more like just the speed with which “progress” advances 'n gobbles them up...somewhat uncontrollable, imo.
    Perhaps many “integrated” indians are still illiterate or semi-illiterate, but no one is forcing them into civilization - with all that land, if they choose to disappear, who's gonna stop them?....but if they choose to stay and integrate, of course they need schools, but in Brazil they aren't the only ones with little or no access to schools...we've discussed this before.

    “As for security, I thought B was planning harsher measures x criminals?” he is, he'll try to change 'n toughen up some laws, do away with pardons, abolish a few absurd 'rights' (one, for ex., the 'prison-Bolsa' for the families.

    Protecting productive farmland, with reasonable access, is far easier than pinpointing 'n catching illegal miners/loggers in 1000s of sq kms of jungle. The MST can't just disappear into the woods.

    I'm not familiar with what went wrong in Mexico, but B wants to patrol the western borders, make it much harder to smuggle stuff (drugs, weapons, goods) through official border checkpoints and over highways, weakening the finances of drug gangs, and the 5 or 6 crime factions present in most State prisons....the idea is to wipe them out, like the FBI did the mob.
    In this respect have not heard any reference been made to tactics used in Mexico.
    Thanks, but I think I'll pass on the idea of the ziplines.

    Jan 06th, 2019 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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