MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Buenos Aires ceremony to recall Malvinas rights Affirmation Day
Argentina commemorated on Monday in downtown Buenos Aires the Day of the Affirmation of Argentine rights over the Malvinas and South Atlantic Islands in a ceremony to honor the former combatants of the 1982 South Atlantic conflict. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesArgentina celebrating an 1829 public announcement of theft. How very viveza criolla.
Jun 11th, 2019 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +8Poor British people, bared from using their own sound criteria, devoid of any courageous self critical acknowledgment, avoiding the broad objective view of world history and merely relegated to propagandist tales of misinformation. So sad.
Jun 11th, 2019 - 01:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -8.
On a different note.
I see a lot of name dropping, institution mentions, and organization references...
yet no mention of what the substance of the event was... No touching on topics mentioned by the protesters. Nothing. Just useful references for those who know nothing in life, but fighting others who get in the way of their avarice for the world.
I try not to bare too much these days.
Jun 11th, 2019 - 01:39 pm - Link - Report abuse +8I see a lot of words I recognise albeit the order they are in makes little sense Trimonde.
By 'broad objective view of world history' do you mean - let us miss out all those inconvenient little details?
Argentina is NOT alone:
Jun 11th, 2019 - 02:58 pm - Link - Report abuse -1http://www.chargeonline.com.br/php/DODIA//mariano.jpg
No Roger, I mean an inclusive view of the whole world where however we don't think of our own countries in terms of a primary frame of importance or significance, nor the sole priority of our thinking.
Jun 11th, 2019 - 04:00 pm - Link - Report abuse -6Rodge...
Jun 11th, 2019 - 04:17 pm - Link - Report abuse -7- I Think.., what Mr. Trimonde is trying to expressi in his very polite way..., is that you Engrish are haughty as hell...
Trimonde = older version of Patrick Edgar?
Jun 11th, 2019 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse +6Avoiding the broad objective view of world history, its very obvious who that is.
Jun 11th, 2019 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse +4There isn't one facet of international law that supports an Argentine claim. Every judgement that has been made concerning such claims supports the UK and every opinion from judges of the ICJ likewise.
“The Island of Palmas tribunal of the PCA at the Hague explicitly recognized the validity of conquest as a mode of acquiring territory when it declared in its decision that:
“If a dispute arises as to the sovereignty over a portion of territory, it is customary to examine which of the States claiming sovereignty possesses a title—cession conquest, occupation, etc.—superior to that which the other State might possibly bring forward against it.”
”There is a general principle, in international law jurisprudence, that claims may be extinguished by the passage of time.
“The principle of extinctive prescription, that is, the bar of claims by lapse of time, is recognized by international law. It has been applied by arbitration tribunals in a number of cases. The application of the principle is flexible and there are no fixed time limits…. Undue delay in presenting a claim, which may lead to it being barred, is to distinguished from effects of the passage of time on the merits of the claim in cases where the claimant state has, by failing to protest or otherwise, given evidence of acquiescence’”: I Oppenheim 526 and 527. See Cheng, General Principles of Law as Applied by International Courts and Tribunals (1953), Chap. 18; King, Prescription of Claims in International Law, (1934) 15 B.Y.I.L. 82. Cf. prescription, acquisitive.
So the UK can prove jurisdiction as to title, and the last time I looked they have tossed a claim that exceeded thirty years (The Gentini case PCA 1903).
Moreover, you cannot apply modern law. With so much precedent in their corner, they look like their claim is in pretty good shape.
No idea what you are smoking Trimonde, but it is really sodding up your brain cells. You must be young. Cynicism comes with age.... like a bad back.
Jun 11th, 2019 - 10:50 pm - Link - Report abuse +4My back is fine..., copper...
Jun 11th, 2019 - 11:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If we pretend that international law and the Charter of the United Nations don't exist, Argentina could start a war and conquer the British Falkland Islands. ... Oh wait, they have already tried that. Did they succeed?
Jun 12th, 2019 - 02:39 am - Link - Report abuse +3@Don Alberto
Jun 12th, 2019 - 03:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: Oh wait, they have already tried that. Did they succeed?
You are saying that just to heart the feelings of the miserable Argies. THAT's NOT fair at all!
@DT (Contn of “Iran's Supreme Leader...”)
Jun 12th, 2019 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0FHC’s attitude was a surprise - until then no one thought he’d back the PT...you could say he did because he'd been exiled, but in 2011 would’ve expected him to be impartial - today, I can see they’re all the same crap, but the CNV was a PT creation, which from the start only wanted State crimes to be investigated…how else would it have passed in Congress ?
It’s clear Dilma ‘n the rest were playing the victim; their intention was to prepare the path for huge compensation later on…If not, why didn’t they ever admit to 'their' crimes, which were conveniently covered up ? Going back to 1999, it was already being discussed informally ; in 2001, an Amnesty Commission was created (by FHC) to examine cases of torture victims in 60s/70s ;
CNV was created 10 years later, not only to consolidate findings of the AmCo, but to try to incriminate the military. In the last 20 years or so, between the AmCO ‘n CNV, approx US$ 4 billion was paid to ‘victims’ (most during the PT years)…very profitable.
Even Lula benefited from the farce, despite being jailed for only 29 days…‘n was well-treated, as he acknowledged later on.
His ‘amnesty’ pension is a bit of a black box...same as some others, especially cash lump-sums ; DataPrev (State Co which manages the INSS pension system) claims it is unable to generate the Lula files…very convenient.
”You (me) for a start“…totally irrelevant…the atmosphere after the CNV report, would make any claim from the military sound like mere excuses. The military resigned themselves to reality, ‘n even if they hadn’t, d’you think the PT dominated congress would’ve given them compensation?
”Half of Americans” ? doubt it…considering most of its population descends fm immigrants, ‘n that the white American average genetic make-up is 018 % native American (98.6% European, 0,19 African), ‘n black Americans even less, I’d think the low number shows their contribution to US population is pretty small.
“FHC’s attitude was a surprise”
Jun 13th, 2019 - 05:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Perhaps he cares more about freedom of speech and thought than you do. He wasn't a revolutionary, but still had to leave Brazil because of his beliefs.
“If not, why didn’t they ever admit to 'their' crimes”
Likely they still don't think they committed any. D'you reckon the military commanders who ordered tortures and murders, believe that they did anything wrong? Do YOU think they did? It would've been different if the commission could dispense justice, but that wasn't an option.
Re the military, don't they or their family get a pension if they are injured or killed in service? And the 'freedom fighters' didn't torture anyone, did they?
As for Lula's 'pension', how much could he have got for only 29 days in jail? Surely it would be a lump sum, and not a big one?
”Half of Americans” ?
Not half of Americans that have a native ancestor, but half that claim so. I was exaggerating, but the number is certainly implausibly high. Seems to be a 'romantic' legend that many old families there pass on. Though, IIRC, the percentage is actually higher among black Americans, and obviously much higher among Latinos. But apart from that, if the ancestor was more than 6 generations ago, you might not have any DNA from them anyway, or at least none detectable.
@DT
Jun 13th, 2019 - 07:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Perhaps he cares more about freedom of speech and thought than you do”...cheap dig, DT.
He did NOT have to leave. His exile was self-imposed, and he returned in 1968. Get yr facts right.
“Likely they still don't think they committed any.”...obviously not...but then who was responsible for the 126 military 'n civilian deaths attributed to them ? Ah, they died of natural causes !
If the military believed they were doing no wrong - while they did it - they at least owned up to it later on....the left NEVER did. My feeling is that the Generals believed they were fighting a war, and that the means justified the ends.
It “would also have been different” (if the CNV hadn't been one-sided), or fairer IF BOTH sides had been investigated and held responsible...but that didn't happen, did it ? Who made the rules ? the PT.
The families of the dead military got no more pension than they would've had they been killed in battle....not one got millions. Since the freedom fighters have not been obliged to talk about any torture they may have carried out on the military, before killing them, we'll never know.
By what I can find now, and what I heard at the time (2009), Lula received a lifetime pension of R$ 5,000 (now probably at least doubled by inflation) or abt US$ 2,500 /month (well over todays limit of R$ 5,800 for someone who worked their ass off for at least 35 years), for spending 29 days in jail in 1979, where he was well treated. The lefties made sure they were all well compensated.
Claiming native American ancestry is becoming quite common. Anything to be benefited by special programs, if you can get away with it. For ex., few days ago saw a report of a white guy here, who submitted a photo where he appeared to be 'mulato', in order to benefiit from a job quota in some public agency. When discovered he had covered his face and arms in some brown stuff, he alleged that he took the photo during summer when he was sun-tanned. Regardless, a stinkin' liar.
Well, maybe. Everyone cares more about free speech when it's their own speech being suppressed. But the attitude of 'it was all fine because it happened not to affect me' seems like a cop out. Why did FHC leave, anyway? Did he support the communists?
Jun 14th, 2019 - 03:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“then who was responsible for the 126 military 'n civilian deaths attributed to them ?”
It was resistance against an illegal, corrupt gvmt, and the ends justified the means.... or so they could say. I wonder how many of them do regret their actions and how many don't. If they had used torture systematically, like the army did, then something would have come out by now, from survivors, marks on the bodies, or confessions. So I think we can rule that out.
“The families of the dead military got no more pension”
At least they did get some kind of pension, then. Lula's sounds absurdly high, if true. Didn't he already get some kind of payout for losing his finger in an industrial accident?
“Anything to be benefited by special programs”
Like this case, an Indian American who pretended to be black to get into medical school:
https://nypost.com/2015/04/12/mindy-kalings-brother-explains-why-he-pretended-to-be-black/
I've also heard that kids of rich African families, who can afford to send them to private schools to get a good education, are taking college places intended to help disadvantaged African American students - not at all the intended outcome. Really shows that you need to fix the basics of funding and discipline in schools (or even start with the social problems of broken families and ghettos filled with gangs) rather than trying to rig the system at the top.
DT
Jun 15th, 2019 - 06:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Why did FHC leave, anyway?”....don't know, maybe you should ask him....I'd say he was afraid to stay...if he did support the communists, he didn't do it openly, afaik.
“It was resistance against an illegal, corrupt gvmt, and the ends justified the means”...as far as “resistance against an illegal govt” goes, that's your opinion. The Presidency was left vacant when Jango fled the country, and the military took over to avoid generalized chaos....reason enough to not be called “illegal”, imo.
As far as “corrupt govt” goes , why 'corrupt' ? what evidence d'you have of that, or is it just the leftist in you speaking out ? and while on the subject of “corrupt”, presume you believe the later civilian adminstrations (including the PTs) were honest...right ?
“The ends justified the means”...yes, and don't they usually, when at 'war' ?
Whether the military regret their actions or not, I don't know, but they came clean....did the freedom-fighters ? No.
The freedom fighter did not take prisoners, as a matter of speech....they eventually killed all those they caught...including an American Army Captain.
The military pensions were foreseen in law, just like mine...nothing to write home about, and definitely no where near as generous as the compensation granted to all those who claimed to have 'suffered' at the hands of the military. This was only possible because the governments all leaned to the left.
At the time, Lula's colleagues said he lost his finger deliberately - to be allowed to claim his pension as an invalid ( because of one 'pinky' ?) - and persue his dream of becoming union leader. No accident.
The story of your Indian (India) American did not end well....he was a fraud, and only managed it due to the quota system/ affirmative action...while quotas might be justified in some cases - that's another story - they still need to have strict vetting rules, otherwise it invites fraud. The system becomes lax, and no one bothers to really enforce the rules.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jun 15th, 2019 - 07:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The Presidency was left vacant when Jango fled the country, and the military took over to avoid generalized chaos.”
What a stupid statement, he fled the country because traitors, had staged coup at the behest of US interests. just like against Like against Lula.
https://truthout.org/audio/how-the-us-contributed-to-brazils-return-to-fascism/
There was a Harvard Review article published in the ’90s, which counted 44 US-backed coups in Latin America between 1898 and 1994. And so we’re in a situation where the US was involved in the 1964 coup in Brazil, and actively supported the dictatorship, which lasts until 1985.
https:// truthout.org/audio/how-the-us-contributed-to-brazils-return-to-fascism/#
“They eventually killed all those they caught...including an American Army Captain.”
For which you provide no evidence. The Captain was an American torturer who bragged about how killed uncooperative prisoners with a bayonet. Which I have fully exposed before. Which what do rehash previously discredited arguments. Which confirms you don't have any genuine issues.
Gollum, don't be so slimy, and thick.
Jun 15th, 2019 - 10:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You want evidence, numbnuts ? Look up :
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Chandler
I said the freedom-fighters killed him....right on...as a matter of fact it was the VPR, the group fat Dilma belonged to. They claimed he was CIA, which was pure bs...
Read an excerpt from the above link....if you can understand it.
“”O tribunal (dos guerrilheiros) não decidiu matá-lo porque tivesse feito algo de errado, mas porque era americano e era militar. Além disso, estavam a fim de matar alguém que desse publicidade ao terrorismo“
So, why don't you provide ”PROOF” of YOUR STATEMENT, that he was a torturer ? and not just some concocted report by some stupid communist ...like you.
“They claimed he was CIA, which was pure bs.”
Jun 15th, 2019 - 11:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Joffily, Mariana (2008). In the center of the gear: the interrogations in the Operation Bandeirante and in the DOI of São Paulo (1969-1975) (PDF) (Thesis of Doctorate in Social History). São Paulo: USP-FFLCH. P. 31. doi : 10.11606 / T.8.2008.tde-03062008-152541 . The assassination of US captain Charles Rodney Chandler, a veteran of the Vietnam War on October 12, 1968, was executed by a joint command of VPR and ALN, as he was a CIA agent. GORENDER, Jacob. Fight in the dark. 5. ed. São Paulo: Attica, 1998, p. 143-144.
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussão%3ACharles_Chandle
“Chandler served in the Vietnam War, where he was decorated as a military advisor and participated in more than 40 battles of the war; He commanded the strategic village of Bo Quan Tri in South Vietnam,considered a field of torture Vietcong prisoners.” A lecture in Campinas, where he described methods of torture of the Viet Cong. “If the subject does not speak, thrust his bayonet into his belly sticking la devagarrinho to kill”. He is thus condemned out of his own mouth, which shows a confession to a political murder.
“I'd say he was afraid to stay”
Jun 16th, 2019 - 12:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0I guess he didn't believe he'd be safe, as long as he didn't fight against the government.
“The Presidency was left vacant when Jango fled the country, and the military took over to avoid generalized chaos”
Oh sure, and if you flee your home, I totally have a right to take over the vacant condo, never mind that you left because I was pointing a machine gun at you...?
“why 'corrupt' ?”
Weren't they all?
”presume you believe the later civilian adminstrations (including the PTs) were honest...right ?“
Hah. See above.
As for ends and means, depends on what they are. Some means are so terrible that no end could justify them. Others are merely disproportionate to the ends achieved.
”they eventually killed all those they caught“
They kidnapped VIPs to exchange for their own members in prison; those were released. But how do you mean the army came clean? They all testified as to what they did?
”The military pensions were foreseen in law, just like mine...nothing to write home about”
Makes sense. They died doing their jobs, same as if they were fighting a real war. If they deserve more (and they probably do), then so do all soldiers who die or are injured in battle. It's different to compensation for people injured or killed by the state; wonder how they determined the amounts?
Why would Lula need a pension to be union leader? Aren't they paid?
“he was a fraud, and only managed it due to the quota system/ affirmative action”
Entry was very competitive; he didn't lie about his grades, but the quota gave him an edge over others equally qualified. I don't think quotas are justified in this case. Why should individual Asian or white students be disadvantaged because more people who look like them want to/are qualified to train as doctors?
It's also interesting that he experienced racism after making himself look black, despite already being Asian. I think that disparity is a US thing, maybe a legacy of segregation?
TODAY'S EXCHANGE-RATE:
Jun 16th, 2019 - 03:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://i2.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/flavio-e-queiroz.jpg?w=640&ssl=1
Gollum
Jun 16th, 2019 - 09:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Trouble with English ? IF Chandler's accounts of turture were true, or even if talked abt while lecturing, it took place in Vietnam...not in Brazil ; so, not even remotely does it imply he tortured anyone here.
Now go ahead, blame the source for misguiding you. I proved my point, you didn't...makes you a “compulsive liar”...sound familiar ?
@DT
“The Presidency was left vacant when Jango fled the country....”
“Oh sure, and if you flee your home, I totally have a right to take over the vacant condo, never mind you left because I pointed a machine gun at you...?”
No one pointed a machine gun at him...if they had he might not have fled. At worst, he'd be destituted, pushed aside...poor guy. And if you abandon your Condo, seems reasonable that it's up for grabs.
Me : “why 'corrupt' ?” You : “Weren't they all?” I'm not saying the military was honest...am sure there were many rotten eggs in the basket - only natural, it was BZL - but comparatively speaking, probably far less than the civilians who followed....BUT, were the freedom fighters “resisting” because they decided the govt was corrupt (on the day after the military took over) or because they wanted to install a communist government ?
“As for ends & means, depends on what they are”...I said what the ends were....to win a war on commie terrorism.
“...how do you mean the army came clean?” I've already told you...they were obliged to testify - against themselves - to the CNV ...did the freedom fighters have to ? No way.
The military pensions of those killed were calculated in a similar way to those in the private sector.
Compensation for someone killed by the State - presumably not when participating in armed resistance 'against the State' - is usually the result of trial, where both sides can defend themselves, not huge amounts decided by a one-sided leftist Commission.
To be a union leader, Lula needed to stop working, 'n to survive, a pension
Fraud. No justification. He reaped what he planted.
“No one pointed a machine gun at him”
Jun 16th, 2019 - 11:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The army was marching against him. And Congress declared the presidency vacant while he was still in the country; he didn't flee until afterwards, when he realised there would be a civil war if he resisted and he was unlikely to win. The army acted to seize power, nothing more.
“And if you abandon your Condo, seems reasonable that it's up for grabs.”
With a philosophy like that, you should be supporting the MTST. But regardless, Goulart didn't abandon Brazil, he was forced to leave.
“comparatively speaking, probably far less than the civilians who followed”
Maybe, but since they censored the press, it would have been much easier for them to hide it than for the later civilian governments. Anyway, I was suggesting what the 'freedom fighters' might say about their actions. I think the lack of democracy and repressive measures of the government were the real factors. They prevented peaceful expression and change, and so inspired armed opposition. And I do not think the ends justified the means.
“Compensation for someone killed by the State... is usually the result of trial, where both sides can defend themselves”
Yes. But then usually a trial would lead to some punishment as well. It's all a bit of a mess.
'Union leader' is a job; whether elected or appointed, surely they get paid? It's not like the unions lacked money, until recently.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jun 16th, 2019 - 11:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“so, not even remotely does it imply he tortured anyone here.” You have just conceded he is a professional torturer. Therefore, it is a much more reasonable assumption that he did. As neither he nor his employer are going admit what they were doing. But, there is a site that names others.
http://www.namebase.net:82/brazil.html
“Blame the source for misguiding you.” The source was accurate, you're simply lying again.
As Brazilian Government records confirm
Institutional Security Office
Augusto Heleno
“He was then appointed to be the first Military Commander of the United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti, led by Brazil, a position he held from May 2004 to September 2005.”
http://www. brazil.gov.br/government/ministers/institutional-security-office?TSPD_101_R0=cc4a28ecd8159fe39d32d86eac12564de230000000000000000cbcb5c51ffff00000000000000000000000000005d06cc4300b4ab831f08282a9212ab2000ed6a5aa3721ab18d8a8041f04e367ebfc4c56f309b21a7888c62c0bd515c88f00827462fc80a2800376e8fdfde3e80d7309e2223a2dea9fe888c5a980fbac939703339873704cd02d1b0f850b4ff29dc
Brazil’s military dictatorship: General Heleno Is home from Haiti to roost
By Dady Chery, Oct. 31, 2018
the retired General Augusto Heleno Ribeiro Pereira. ... In his capacity as MINUSTAH commander, Ribeiro Pereira is associated with a notorious massacre on July 6, 2005 in the Port-au-Prince slum neighborhood of Cite Soleil, after which he quickly returned to Brazil ... In that report, MINUSTAH described a firefight that “lasted over seven hours during which time their forces expended over 22,000 rounds of ammunition,” and an operation that involved 1,440 troops: 1,000 who “secured the perimeter” and 440 who engaged in a raid. It has been suggested that Ribeiro Pereira left Haiti for fear of “being hauled before an international court for war crimes.”
http://www.namebase.net
@DemonTree
Jun 17th, 2019 - 03:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “get a pension if they are injured/killed in service”:
WHAT service; exactly? Doesn't it sound like a bit of an exaggeration? I mean, although constipated; none of them died while performing the rare & more important services for their country; such as emptying their bowels!
@DT
Jun 17th, 2019 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The army was marching against him”....how dramatic...no where near it. Nothing like Allende being bombed in Chile's presidential palace. If they wanted to stop him they could've.
“...realised there would be a civil war if he resisted and he was unlikely to win. The army acted to seize power, nothing more”. Don't know who'd have helped him resist....anyway, not one shot was fired and the army stepped in. Sounds horrible.
“With a philosophy like that, you should be supporting the MTST.”.....abandoning is not the same as invading.....and Jango was not 'forced' to leave...he fled on his own accord....but who cares, it will not change the course of history.
“but since they censored the press, it would have been much easier for them to hide it than for the later civilian governments”....yes, of course !! Now you are really looking for hair on eggs....they imposed censorship to hide their corruption (LOL)... let's presume they were worse than Lula, that they, not the PT, broke the country...get real !
The fact that the CNV obliged only the military to confess it's crimes, already invalidates its findings....takes two to fight. The military defended themselve 'n hit back...against a small group, not representative of the people.
“But then usually a trial would lead to some punishment as well”....and what's wrong with punishment for those who deserved it ? military, AND freedom-fighters alike...you are arguing against yourself....if any freedom fighter (or his/her familiy) felt they got the wrong end of the stick, go to court....don't create a commission, the outcome of which was a done deal...it was just a way to legalize the stealing of billions.
My point with Lula : as an employee he could not be a union leader....he had to be able to retire (early).
@Gollum
“You have just conceded he is a professional torturer. Therefore, much more reasonable assumption that he did”
Assumptions are not proof, Gollum...presuming what you want to, does not make it true. Idiot.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jun 17th, 2019 - 04:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Assumptions are not proof” Then why did you proffer yours? Mine is more than likely. He was still torturer, and received poetic justice.
@JB
Jun 17th, 2019 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The army was marching against him”
That's what Wikipedia says. As for who would have helped him resist, it says he had some support from the army in the South of Brazil. But it wasn't enough, so he fled. Allende was braver perhaps, but his dying for the cause didn't change the course of history.
“abandoning is not the same as invading”
Indeed, and 'stepping in to prevent chaos' that YOU caused is simply sophistry. Jango fled the country because of the coup, not on some whim.
As for the MTST, DO you support them occupying and living in abandoned, unused buildings?
“they imposed censorship to hide their corruption”
No, but once they had imposed it, that gave them a lot of latitude to do what they wanted. I'm not saying they were as corrupt as the civilian governments, only that not hearing about it does not imply it didn't happen.
I'm inclined to agree the commission should have been fairer, though I think it's better to have one and deal with everything at once than have people and families suing individually. Or revoke the amnesty law and both sides could go on trial, the army for human rights violations and the 'freedom fighters' for ordinary crimes: kidnapping, murder, bank robbery...
”My point with Lula : as an employee he could not be a union leader....he had to be able to retire (early).”
I find that very strange. Surely not every union leader in Brazil was involved in an industrial accident, or is old enough to take their reduced pension and retire? Who was leader of the union before Lula?
DT
Jun 18th, 2019 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wikipedia says whatever people write in it. Figuratively, literally....who cares ?
Am not making fallacious arguments...I'll make it clearer for you....the country no longer wanted Jango, sh*t was happening, 'n the army stepped in to make sure chaos didn't erupt, 'n Jango fled because he knew he'd lose - 'n might be imprisoned - if he resisted.
I'm not camouflaging anything.
The buildings the MTST invade are not “abandoned” buildings...the owners have not fled, they're waiting for the market to improve to either sell the building, or await an offer fm the Municipality to buy / reform/ sell the apartments to those who have registered themselves, to receive their homes, in a fair 'n orderly fashion...so no, I don't support the MTST...they're a bunch of poor people being manipulated by smart leaders - who don't like to appear, charge rent from the invaders, become rich at their expense - and jump the line(you might say) disrespecting those who have waited in line to buy their home. Extremely different.
“No, but once they had imposed it, that gave them a lot of latitude to do what they wanted”
So what ? (Censorship does not imply corruption), but what do you really expect from a military government that took over to prevent communism ? there'a lot of stuff that never comes out, 'n that includes plenty of what Lula did - yet you believe he's “not as corrupt as I think he is”.
You're 'inclined' to agree ? well, thank you ! if both sides committed crimes, what credibility does a one-sided commission have ? it was one big farce to steal more money.
“Or revoke the amnesty law”....sounds lovely ; but with a leftist Congress, it'd never happen.
“...the army for human rights violations...the army for human rights violations” ...funny you make that distinction...murder is murder, no matter who commits it.
No union leader can simultaneously hold a job. “Only” Lula “provoked” an accident, to retire, to become one...at 27 yrs old. B4 Lula, dunno...what's yr point?
@JB
Jun 18th, 2019 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, that's more accurate. Jango fled because he was afraid he'd be imprisoned - for what crime? I'm sure they could have invented one. But it wasn't 'the country' that no longer wanted him, but a powerful minority: the rich and educated, the middle class and the elite.
“they're waiting for the market to improve to either sell the building”
We have that problem too. Rich foreigners buy up houses and flats in London, as an investment, so apartments sit empty while the people who work in the city struggle to find a home. Their actions drive up prices, so they make money from ordinary people who just need somewhere to live, while producing and contributing nothing. It's a great social evil. I wish the government would do something about it, but they always take good care of the rich.
But what would you call an abandoned building, if not one left empty and unused, unmaintained for years? The tower block that burned down in SP last year was owned by the federal government. What's their excuse for leaving it empty?
“Censorship does not imply corruption”
I agree. I'm only saying the fact you didn't hear about corruption during the military rule doesn't prove there wasn't any.
“well, thank you !”
Hey, be happy; you never agree with me. I do think there's a distinction between crimes committed by the state and those by individuals, or groups. You're allowed to defend yourself against criminals, and the state has far greater power over you.
Union leader IS a job. That's why the story sounds fishy to me. If they're not paid, that seems kinda nuts.
Bad neighbor: a US hand behind the Sérgio Moro show
Jun 18th, 2019 - 09:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now that the Intercept has revealed that the US Department of Justice/Curitiba Public Prosecutor’s cooperative Lava Jato (Car Wash) anti-corruption investigation’s primary goal was to destroy the Brazilian Workers party and usher in ultra-neoliberalism which has, among other things, turned over 75% of the nation’s pre-salt petroleum reserves at below market rates to northern petroleum corporations and pushed 13 million Brazilians below the poverty line, it is worth taking a look at how the US integral state contributed to this unmitigated political, labor, environmental and human rights disaster.
Sérgio Moro he was accused in a article that was shared on the Brazilian Army website, of destroying 5 hard drives worth of physical evidence of bribery handed over by Odebrecht, ... He was accused of ethical violations when it was uncovered that he was living in a luxury apartment which he owns in Curitiba while collecting a judicial rent subsidy. He was accused of legally harassing his critics, as in the case of ordering the police to raid the house of legal scholar Rafael Valim,who organized a seminar with UN Human Rights Commission lawyer Geoffrey Robertson criticizing the Lava Jato team for using Lawfare. And, most importantly, he was accused of sabotaging the economy by paralyzing Brazil’s largest construction companies in 2015 instead of treating them as too big to fail, in a move which caused an immediate 500,000 layoffs in the construction sector and, according a study cited by BBC, a 2.5% drop in the GDP. This was all publicly available information at the time that Lula was arrested, but none of it made it up into the commercial Anglo media.
http://www.brasilwire.com/bad-neighbor-a-us-hand-behind-the-sergio-moro-show/
Camouflaging one politician as a victim + the other politicians targetted as the villains is a game of The Brain-Washed + Retarded+Disillusioned! Those who point fingers have their bread-slice buttered on the “right [winning] side”! In other words, all ARE Crooks/Crooked - Accept, Admit, Realize this - at least!
Jun 19th, 2019 - 04:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0DT
Jun 19th, 2019 - 05:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Jango fled...afraid he'd be imprisoned - what crime?” Doubt he'd be imprisoned, only questioned, but fleeing made it obvious he feared something...maybe some secret deals w/ China, USSR ? Anyway, the Army didn't go around, imprisoning the commies.
“But it wasn't 'the country' that no longer wanted him...but the rich, educated, middle class, elite”..
Obviously, but how d'you conclude the 'rest' wanted him ? you don't know...on the other hand, by “rich, to elite”, you've named those who think, which hardly includes the rest of “the country”, which mostly didn't read the papers, or even watch TV (expensive item back then), i.e.,not really aware what was going on, far less have an opinion on it. Isn't that how it usually works when you have a small handful of educated people (running the country), and the rest are relatively uninformed/incapable of thinking for themselves /understanding the implications of certain acts (like what Jango was doing, or even why the Army took over).
“Rich foreigners buy houses ''n flats in LDN, as investment”..they're allowed to, aren't they ? If the people -who elect govt - thinks it's unfair, then change the law. And a house that's closed, is not abandoned. But again, we're talking of Brazil, light years behind the UK.
“The tower block...burned down in SP...owned by Fed Govt”..afaik, they'd tried to get the people out several times - alleging safety issues - but leftist politicians/lawyers blocked them. Even if all 'closed' buildings were (immy) transformed into cheap flats, it would attend only a fraction of what's needed.
“didn't hear about corruption during the military rule doesn't prove there wasn't any.”
Agree, 'n I didn't say there wasn't. But they didn't break the country.
Ask the dead if there's any distinction.
Never enough space for Lula - fact : union leaders/staff can't be Co employees. The unions support them. Fact : Lula stuck his finger in the lathe, to appear a victim /retire early (27)/ become union leader.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jun 19th, 2019 - 07:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe some more of your absolute bullshit, I'll guarantee that no such evidence exists. So off to your corner bar to commiserate with other wingnut paranoids.
THE US ROLE IN REGIME CHANGE IN BRAZIL
“It is hard to imagine a better cooperative relationship in recent history than that of the United States Department of Justice and the Brazilian prosecutors. We have cooperated and substantially assisted one another on a number of public matters that have now been resolved, and are continuing to do so on a number of ongoing investigations.
Around the same time as the Rio de Janeiro conference in 2009, new Secretary of State Hillary Clinton gave an address to the Council of the Americas in New York, which now feels prescient. In her speech to the David Rockefeller-founded Wall Street lobby, a grinning Secretary Clinton promotes a theme that “the ballot box is not enough” in Latin America, and that “sustainable democracies do more than have elections”
https://popularresistance.org/the-us-role-in-regime-change-in-brazil/
Get lost Gollum...if that's possible, in your mother's smelly basement.
Jun 19th, 2019 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jun 19th, 2019 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“I'll guarantee that no such evidence exist” thanks for confirming my assertion, and thus revealing yourself yet again as a liar.
Lava Jato: “The Narrative Must Be Protected At All Costs”
It is simply the most important geopolitical story of recent times. Documents leaked to the Intercept have led to the exposure of ostensible anti-corruption Operation Lava Jato (Carwash) as a means to rig Brazil’s 2018 election, and worse still, which was carried out in conjunction with the United States Government.
And this is only the beginning, Lava Jato’s role in the impeachment of Dilma Rousseff and in enabling the selloff of Brazil’s resources and strategic companies to US corporations are all now being intensely scrutinised,
Far beyond that, Operation Lava Jato has inflicted catastrophic damage on the country. Politically, economically, socially, and to its national sovereignty.
We must ask why the available evidence, such as the U.S. Department of Justice’s Kenneth Blanco’s 2017 speech at NATO think tank the Atlantic Council, in which he boasted about the DoJ role in Lava Jato and the prosecution of Lula, was completely ignored until now.
http://www.brasilwire.com/the-narrative-must-be-protected-at-all-costs/
@JB
Jun 19th, 2019 - 09:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Jango didn't need to have done anything wrong to fear what the army might do to him. How many times has the previous leader been left alone to live their life after a coup? I can't think of any. Either they go into exile, or they go to jail, or else they end up dead.
“how d'you conclude the 'rest' wanted him ?”
I don't know. The only way to find out would have been to hold another election, and the army weren't going to allow that. As for having the educated people running the country, yes they are better placed to consider the issues and make an informed decision, but they will also naturally choose policies that benefit themselves, and the needs of the poor/uneducated/rest of the people will be ignored, or even actively harmed. That's why democracy needs to include everyone.
“If the people -who elect govt - thinks it's unfair, then change the law.”
Our government is firmly convinced all foreign investment is good, and no party is proposing such a change, so who could they vote for? Most people are barely aware that it contributes to the problem.
For the tower block in SP, the MSTS were charging rent. Perhaps the government should have given the building to them, provided they use the money to fix the safety issues first?
“a house that's closed, is not abandoned”
Neither is one where the owner has fled due to danger. And a president who is still in the country has not abandoned his post.
As for Lula, the first is a fact, the second just a rumour you are repeating. You weren't there and have no idea what really happened.
“How many times has previous leader been left alone...live their life after a coup?”
Jun 20th, 2019 - 05:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Presumably talking abt Brazil....where “bloody” coups haven't exactly been the order of the day - the 64 takeover was relatively peaceful, w/o incident. And, if you knew Brazil, you 'might' agree that Jango, while an undesirable, offered no danger after he left the presidency. If they wanted to kill / imprison him, d'you really think they couldn't have?
Right, “you don't know”. 'Another election'...you make it sound so simple (fyi, Jango was VP due to his party's coalition with Janio's - who attracted the votes). As to the 'educated people', who 'will naturally choose policies that benefit themselves', you're right - so the Army would be about to hand back power to these 'selfless' people...who, when returned to power in 1985, did what ? benefited themselves. Ever thought that was what the Army wanted to avoid ? By no means am I claiming to 'know' what would happened if events had taken a different path, am simply giving my opinion, based on a few facts, experience 'n perception.
“Our govt is firmly convinced all foreign investment is good, and no party is proposing such a change..” Foreign investment IS good....but perhaps not in ALL segments. Abt a week ago, you asked why Americans didn't push for more worker rights ? Ok, so why don't UK citizens push for a change in certain parts of legislation ?
Why doesn't the Govt 'give' the building to the MTST ? if any money did exchange hands, it'd make a few very rich 'n the rest would remain in the shit...Incredible, you have no comprehension of how things work here...forget yr ideals - they're very nice, but don't work here.
Amazing - from Jango fleeing, leaving the presidency vacant, to abandoning one's Condo, to the MSTS having the right to invade closed buildings....this discussion's gone totally astray.
Just a rumor ? No....co-workers confirmed his intention to cause the accident. Of course , the toad now denies it.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jun 20th, 2019 - 06:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Just a rumor ? No....co-workers confirmed his intention to cause the accident. Of course , the toad now denies it.” If that was true you would be able to provide a source, instead you remain as an unmitigated liar.
I was talking about coups in general, but according to Wikipedia, both the Brazilian Imperial Family, and Washington Luis - the president deposed in 1930 - were exiled. (It says the earlier coup was due to SP refusing to alternate the presidency with Minas Gerais, as had been the custom... bizarre.) The army were satisfied to leave Jango alone as long as he lived quietly outside Brazil. And he was dead by the time they were willing to hand back power.
Jun 20th, 2019 - 07:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Also according to Wikipedia, Brazil at that time had separate elections for President and Vice, hence why Jango ended up Vice President despite being in a rival party to Janio's.
“so the Army would be about to hand back power to these 'selfless' people”
Weren't the army leaders also drawn from this same group of people? I doubt too many of the poor became officers, even the ones who did go to school. So the army would mostly do what the rich and educated wanted, and that's why the latter supported them. That and fear of revolution where they could lose everything.
“why don't UK citizens push for a change in certain parts of legislation ?”
Partly I think because no politician has proposed a really good solution to the problem. Secondly because older/richer people benefit from rising house prices, and older people vote more. Young people complain and then sit on their hands at election time; they're right idiots.
“it'd make a few very rich 'n the rest would remain in the shit”
Okay, it probably wouldn't work because of corruption. But nor does anything else in Brazil.
“from Jango fleeing...”
I thought it was a good parallel. I wasn't expecting you to say that after armed robbers chase someone out of their home, the robbers should be entitled to keep it! That's way worse than the MSTS taking over unused buildings.
“co-workers confirmed”
D'you have a source for that?
DT
Jun 20th, 2019 - 11:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Jango died 14 years after 1964, in 1976. Are u insinuating that the Army was responsible ?
Political coalitions decided who the candidates for Prez /VP would be…and quite frankly, having been VP under Juscelino K, he could easily be more popular as he would not have been subject to the same political wear 'n tear as a President .
“Weren't the army leaders also drawn from this same group of people?” Of course not. The top men in the military join as young men, with an ideal, to serve their country, many times to follow honorable family tradition….not joining and perpetuating themselves in politics to steal (like oligarchs).
The Army’s top brass was not necessarily from rich families (none were rich), which probably had other interests, so why would they cow tow to the rich ?
The Armed Forces never depended on the people, rich, or poor, to survive. The only ones who feared the military were the ones up to shit…then, and now. Yr reasoning is totally flawed.
“…think because no politician has proposed a really good solution to the problem”….well, then they’ve go to try a bit harder, and/or the people elect better reps.
One day, you too will be older, and will look out for ‘your’ interests.
”wouldn’t work because of corruption. But nor does anything else in Brazil“…If you’ve reached that pretty obvious conclusion, why do you contest everything I tell you that is ‘different’ to the UK ??
”I thought it was a good parallel”…yeah, another of yr comparisons, to justify something else. Pls stick to the subject, otherwise we lose focus. Tks.
As far as Lula’s intention to get his finger chopped off, I have no proof other than old TV interviews with ex-colleagues, who confirmed it. Knowing Lula, I’m inclined to believe them.
Lula also swore he doesn’t get a pension for the 29 days he spent in jail (‘aposentadoria de anistiado') ; proof of the contrary can be seen here : https://youtu.be/jE1LZnyMxEw
he receives R$ 9,077, 73/ month. A liar, like Gollum.
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