MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Lula could have to begin serving his 12-year sentence next week
Brazilian federal appeals court will make a final ruling next week on a corruption conviction of former President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, a decision that could see the popular politician ordered to prison shortly afterward, the court’s press office said on Wednesday. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesLula knows the whole circus aims to keep him from running. He could easily go home, keep to himself and all would be well.
Mar 22nd, 2018 - 05:49 pm - Link - Report abuse -1But that's not the material of which Lula is made. He will stay the course and force the establishment to physically restrain him from doing what he's been doing most of his life.
That is what real leaders do, and that's why Lula should overcome the odds and come back to govern for his country people--the powerful greedy be damned.
The BEST thing which I loved to see on the title is: “COULD HAVE TO”- extremely comical indeed - as usual, NOTHINg is definite! :o))))
Mar 23rd, 2018 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +1IN ANY CASE:
The effectiveness of this and MANY other “so-called”[farsical] cases & investigations sound more like STARTING to dig a well for water [to extinguish a fire] only AFTER a home has already burnt down to ashes!
Lula will not be jailed next week...Yday, the STF postponed the final decision (whether to concede his HC , or not) to the 4th April, and his freedom is guaranteed until that date.
Mar 23rd, 2018 - 04:11 pm - Link - Report abuse +1@EM
I wish Lula would listen to you....he 'should' go home and disappear.
But you're right, “that's not the material of which Lula is made” - he is made of excrement, and as such, should be flushed down the toilet.
Reekie, your unfaltering belief in Lula's innocence is quite impressive...but not in a positive way.....and of course, you believe he is still the (relatively) poor politician he was was when he became president in 2003.
Strange that you can't see - or don't want to - that Lula today is also part of the group you call “the powerful greedy”
@JB
Mar 23rd, 2018 - 05:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Strange that you can't see - or don't want to - that Lula today is also part of the group you call “the powerful greedy.” (JB dixit).
Well. Not being able to personally check on Lula's personal fortune, I can only go to a few different sources hoping for a ray of light:
The Celebrity Net Worth, for example, states that Lula's net worth is $65 billion and his annual income $10 billion.
However, Forbes magazine, which reports on famous individuals' wealth, noted the following in 2013:
“...although there are some billionaires who are politicians, Lula is not one of them...examples of politicians who are...Sebastian Piñera, Chile’s president is worth $2.5 billion...”
And added Forbes: “There has been a lot of rumours about the wealth of Lula's family but nothing based on any real facts.”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ricardogeromel/2013/08/23/is-lula-brazils-former-president-a-billionaire/#273105476796
Apparently, Jack prefers to believe the Celebrity Net Worth. I'd rather give credit to Forbes on this one.
Of course, when it's difficult to find serious misgivings about a politician, rivals need to find something else, such as, the politician in question got a traffic ticket or made a dozen photocopies and failed to pay for them. If not, imaginary facts are conveniently spread by friendly media or fed to Internet sources.
As Cambridge Analytica's Alexander Nix famously said when talking to an undercover reporter:
“These are things that don’t necessarily need to be true, as long as they’re believed.”
@EM
Mar 23rd, 2018 - 07:48 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“Apparently, Jack prefers to believe the Celebrity Net Worth. I'd rather give credit to Forbes on this one.”
First, “apparently” Reekie is putting words in my mouth. I never said Lula was a 'billionaire', but you have understood what you want to - as always. I said he was the leader of a criminal organization, installed in his government, formed mainly by high-ranking petistas, and their political indications of directors in Petrobrás, through whom the money flowed out of PB and into theirs and the PT's pockets....as the leader, he got his share of the loot.
Second, the only reason that Forbes is unable to affirm anything regarding Lula's assets, is because Lula's assets are not in his name....such as the R$ 23,000,000.00 credit discovered in the Odebrecht's Bribe Department's confidential spreadsheets, where Lula is referred to as “amigo do pai” (Marcelo Odebrecht's father, Emílio); the 'triplex' which will never be his, after the 'lavajato” spoiled his plans in October 2014 ; the Atibaia country home, reformed and totally equipped at the expense of both Odebrecht and OAS (dozens of bills attest to that), and the object of the 2nd Federal charge against Lula, so the question is , why would two giant construction companies get involved in such a home, pay for all the expenses, when neither of them own it ? and that it was used by Lula, and only Lula and his familiy ? Answer that, IF you can, Reekie. The apartment beside his, in SBCampo, not in his name, but which he uses as his own, and never paid one cent in rent....the official/legal owner (“laranja”) of the apartment confirmed he never received the rent...Wonder why.
The list is too damned long to carry on, but even if I did have the patience to mention the other cases, it would be lost on you...You've been out of South America for too long.
As to Nix's 'famous' (really ??? how original ! ) statement, sounds quite plausible, but get's dashed to the ground when proof is available
@EM
Mar 23rd, 2018 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Certainly Forbes must be a better source than Celebrity Net Worth. What do you make of this paragraph?
“Before his father was elected Brazil’s president Lulinha worked as an intern in a zoo. In 2004, a year after Lula’s first election, Lulinha launched Gamecorp, a company that produced content for TV and internet. In 2005, Gamecorp received over $2.3 million from Telemar, today known as Oi. Even though Lula himself stated that his son was the “Ronaldinho of the business world,” Gamecorp has not been doing very well and its losses have added up to over $4 million.”
D'you think Lulinha is just that talented?
“... the politician in question got a traffic ticket or made a dozen photocopies and failed to pay for them.”
These dismissive analogies do not help your case at all when we are talking about accusations of serious and widespread corruption, the theft of billions of dollars from the taxpayer, where seemingly all politicians from all parties have been involved for years.
Remember also that as a result of the investigations of Odebrecht, the conservative president of Peru was forced to resign only two days ago. You may prefer to believe that Lula is innocent and the scandal has been co-opted to attack him, but the corruption and the investigations themselves are all too real.
@DT
Mar 24th, 2018 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Just an observation regarding the “Forbes” link that Reekie presented as “proof” (???) of Lula's innocence.....dated August 2013, months BEFORE the “lavajato” was announced (March 2014)....yet it does, in a way, confirm what I've said all along...Lula's assets are conveniently not in his name. The part about his son, who used to scoop the poop in the chimp's cage at the zoo, but after “daddy” became President he suddenly became “the Ronaldinho of business”, is a clear sign of what was going on backstage. I wonder what Forbes might have to say about Lula today.
And the fact that today, the PB scandal is recognized as the continuation of the “Mensalão” corruption scheme (started by the PT government in 2005, uncovered in 2007, over in 2012), and the 2nd time Lula is being exposed for the exact same practises, only this time, in a more sophisticated manner.
Eike batista, another one of Lula's favourite businessmen, and to which Lula conceded billionaire loans (through the BNDES) for notoriously ambitious projects which never came to fruition (the oil compnay, the mining company, the superport just south of Santos etc). The loans will never be paid back, and the taxpayer has been saddled with the cost of just one more of Lula's corrupt schemes.
On the other hand, IF , and it's a BIG IF, if Lula were innocent, don't you think he would be only too pleased to cooperate to put the crooks behind bars ? but of course not, he prefers to allege “he knows nothing”, “to blame his dead wife for the things he can't afford to even try to explain honestly”, and to claim “he has no assets” and that those he uses as if they were his own, ”belong to someone else (as he says, 'to a good friend of mine')”, and his relentless attacks on the institutions because the Federal Police caught with his hand in the til, and ruined his dirty plans.
Or, are we to naively believe that all this happned on his watch, billions disappearing, and he knows 'nothing' ?
@EM. I completely understand your first comment. Lulu is a conman and will continue to be so until the very end. I hope that someone takes note and, at the appropriate time, opens the lid and drives a stake straight through.
Mar 25th, 2018 - 09:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0@JB:
Mar 25th, 2018 - 11:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are right but unfortunately, The FACT is:
https://i2.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/stf.jpg?resize=578%2C420&ssl=1
@:o))
Mar 25th, 2018 - 06:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yep, the 'petista' judges in the STF will conveniently ignore their oaths and will betray the Brazilian people...
@EM
“... I can only go to a few different sources hoping for a ray of light: ”
Looks like you are admiiting you haven't a clue about what's going on....but you allow your leftist ideology to guide you.
The list of Lula's crimes, starting 'officially' in 2005, would be able to fill a book .......condensed into 7 federal charges against him. I know it's quite useless to try to open your eyes, but please don't ' invent ' theories about Lula's “innocence”....his crimes are real, and there is tons of proof.....surrounded by corruption for decades and you still naively believe he is the only honest man in Brazil ??
@JB
Mar 25th, 2018 - 09:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If you want to convince EM the corruption investigations in Brazil are real and not just aimed at Lula, listing the politicians from other parties who have already been convicted might help.
Also, the thread on populism has moved on now, but what specifically did Lula or Dilma promise that was impossible to deliver? Did you really mean reducing poverty, as Enrique assumed?
@JB & @DT:
Mar 26th, 2018 - 12:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “the corruption investigations in Brazil are real”: Maybe well-intentioned but its repercussion is nothing but a Fantasy, Illusion or Hallucination - in a [So Called] Democracy where the votes are traded amongst the corrupt who are hiding behind +30 or so ill-reputed political parties; while the corruption is on its way to get legalized [gradually, surreptitiously BUT definitely (by modifying the laws to benefit and to protect the crooks)]. In practice, THAT makes everyone NOT Guilty!
REF:
https://i0.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/7-a-4.jpg?resize=580%2C306&ssl=1
@DT
Mar 26th, 2018 - 06:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If you want to convince EM the corruption investigations in Brazil are real and not just aimed at Lula, listing the politicians from other parties who've already been convicted might help”.
Don't think so. He believes what he wants to because he loves Lula... As to naming other politicians, here's just a 'few'....Cabral, Garotinho (ex-governors of Rio, MDB), Cunha (ex-president of the Lower House, MDB), Delcidio do Amaral (ex-Senator, PT), Paulo Maluf (ex-governor of SP, and more recently member of the Lower House, PP), José Dirceu (ex-senator and Lula's one-time right hand, PT), not to mention 200 members of Congress, already accused of corruption, and awaiting trial in the STF (due to their immunity), or eventually in Lower Court , once the privilege of 'Congressional' immunity is revoked by the STF.
Amongst Lula's/Dilma's empty promises, we have : the reforms of the the tax system, the pension system, the labor laws, massive investments in public security, construction of maximum security prisons in every State, which never got off the ground; here we can also include the 2 PAC's (ambitious infrastructure projects, supposed to propel Brazil into the 1st world in 10 yrs) which consumed US$ 350 billion with very little to show for it....in 2016, 22,000 uncompleted (PAC) projects, 66% of them stopped on account of fraud and corruption...then you have Lula's 'zero hunger' program (that got him elected) but fizzled out after 2 years, again on account of fraud...Lula's only contributions were the BF (which has got no one out of poverty) and the improvement of educational projects (such as scholarships for the poor, or rather, the blacks and the indigenous population) which had already been conceived before Lula was elected....so he improved on things that he did not create, but simply allowed to follow the trend of progress. If he had delivered on his promises, Brazil would be different and maybe he wouldn't be facing prison.
I suppose now you've posted EM won't be around, due to sod's law. Anyway, I looked up a few of the people you mentioned:
Mar 26th, 2018 - 10:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sérgio Cabral Filho (PSDB, then PMDB),
“On 13 June 2017, he was sentenced to 14 years and two months of imprisonment for passive corruption and money laundering. On 20 September 2017 he was sentenced to an additional 45 years imprisonment for embezzlement.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9rgio_Cabral_Filho#Corruption_charges_and_arrest
Eduardo Cunha (PMDB), helped to impeach Dilma, jailed for 15 years:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-39442005
Paulo Maluf, wow! Not only was he convicted by a court in Jersey (British tax haven that generally doesn't care where the money comes from so long as you have it), but had an Interpol red notice requested by the US. Jailed for seven years and nine months for money laundering, according to this:
veja.abril.com.br/politica/tribunal-do-df-mantem-prisao-de-paulo-maluf/
As for all those promises, they weren't all impossible to keep, were they? Lula could have done pension reform, for example, but I'm guessing he didn't because it would have pissed off the voters.
Did they say how they were planning to reform the labour laws?
@DT
Mar 27th, 2018 - 04:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0EM has the habit of disappearing when he is unable to, or doesn't want to, answer the questions, or to defend his position. Brazil is just a sea of corruption. Every single day we hear of corruption schemes being uncovered, involving dozens, or hundreds of millions of dollars. Seems that any civil servant who has access to public funds, thinks it's OK to steal.
Most of Lula's and Dilma's promises weren't IMpossible to keep by any means...all they had to do was to govern seriously , combat corruption, and not be part of it. Brazil has a long tradition of announcing big public projects, many of which are never completed, and cost billions to the taxpayer....just a few examples of the 22,000 projects, simply unfinished or stopped on account of fraud : highways that connect nowhere to nowhere ; bridges over rivers, with no access ramps ; hundreds of kms of railroad tracks just rusting away ; Lula's famous waterway to take water from the Rio São Francisco to areas plagued by droughts, done so shoddily that the 'thin' layers of concrete were buckling long before the project was anywhere near completion ; popular housing projects, besides delivering only 1/10th of the promised number, cracking and falling apart after 3 or 4 years; the abandoned concrete skeletons of children's day care units for the poor, as well as hospitals, or when the buildings are actually completed, there is no equipment in them...so they are abandoned and rot. The list is so extensive, it's unbelievable...funy thing though, the allocated funds have all disappeared.
The first labour laws in Brazil go back to 1943, and other than a few tiny reforms here and there they were allowed to become obsolete and in no way attend the dynamism of a modern society....It had just become a collection of restrictive work practices which had no reason to exist anymore ; Temer's recent reform (approved Nov 2017) attempted to modernize the laws and at the same time, attend worker vindications.
@JB
Mar 27th, 2018 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Never mind, when EM comes back I'll link him here and ask his opinion, he generally answers if he is around.
I don't suppose he or anyone can really think there is no corruption in Brazil, but he does seem to believe Lula is not guilty of anything, which is hard to credit when there was so much going on right under his nose.
Some of the PT's promises sound overambitious, but mostly not impossible. I reckon it would have been pretty hard to combat corruption successfully, because the whole establishment would be against anyone who tried, including all those civil servants who want to keep their generous benefits, and whose cooperation would be needed to put the government's plans into action and allow them to actually achieve anything. However, there is a good argument for avoiding the sort of big projects that enable even more corruption, and especially for not starting more building works until the first ones are complete.
I guess it's too soon to see what the effects of the labour law reform are, good and/or bad. I'm surprised the military never reformed them, really. Maybe they thought it would make them too unpopular?
@DT:
Mar 28th, 2018 - 01:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “it would have been pretty hard to combat corruption successfully”:
OBVIOUSLY! REF:
https://i1.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Ratos-felizes.jpg?resize=537%2C420&ssl=1
@DT
Mar 28th, 2018 - 04:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Some of the PT's promises sound overambitious, but mostly not impossible”.....Strictly speaking, 99% of them aren’t impossible…but you just know when it’s lie, that they have absolutely no intention of keeping them...would 50 years of broken promises be sufficient reason to not believe them ? ...impossible, at least today, would be to build a ladder to the moon.
The problem with corruption in Brazil is that it’s so entwined in to popular culture, that few people actually see it as something wrong.
Changing the subject slightly, but still to do with social responsibility : a poll taken a couple of years back, asked people what they thought about respecting the traffic rules…couldn't find the exact result, but by what I remember, it was a stunning (approximately) 50% saying they saw no reason to obey them (they existed to be broken), while 80% admitted they broke them every now and again…this lack of responsibility, or belief they’re above the law, in 2017 translated into 47,000 deaths /year, with 400,000 victims becoming disabled in way or the other (2017). The cost, a hefty US$ 17 Billion/year, enough to build 1,000s of schools and hospitals…in a civilized country, government would monitor the project and the money very closely, but not here, as their intention is different.
For ex., when a mayor of some small town is questioned by the press why a hospital never got off the ground but the (Federal) funds transferred to the county have gone, they deny any wrongdoing...in some extreme cases, they have even challenged the press to go to the project site…they do, and upon arrival, just an empty lot….and these guys are protected by their political immunity.
The labor laws have generally become more flexible (as workers & business alike, wanted), and the military had no intention of legislating on purely civilian matters. Congress could have acted if it had wanted to, but 40 years ago, the law wasn’t that old, or discrepant with reality.
@JB:
Mar 28th, 2018 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “The problem with corruption in Brazil is that it’s so entwined in to popular culture, that few people actually see it as something wrong”:
EXACTLY! REF:
https://i2.wp.com/blogdoaftm.web2419.uni5.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/1907-1024x768.jpg
@:o))
Mar 28th, 2018 - 06:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Na foto do sapo barbudo, lá em cima, percebeu que ele está bêbado ? alias, como sempre...hahahah..
@JB:
Mar 28th, 2018 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0:o))))
@JB
Mar 28th, 2018 - 08:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“would 50 years of broken promises be sufficient reason to not believe them ?”
Sure. How have the other parties done at keeping theirs? I consider Temer to have broken his by implementing completely different polices to the ones he campaigned on, as Dilma's VP, but what about earlier presidents?
47,000 deaths... there must be something they can do. People break the laws here but the police do enforce them, and especially the campaigns against drink-drinking have made a big difference. You're right that it's about changing attitudes as much as enforcing the law, and it would probably pay for itself, as well as reducing all the suffering.
“and these guys are protected by their political immunity.”
Even mayors of small towns? Surely there is some way to get it removed, or remove them from office if they have committed a crime, like the President can be impeached?
“40 years ago, the law wasn’t that old, or discrepant with reality.”
True, I hadn't thought of that. 1943 seems so long ago to me. More flexible is a double edged sword, in the US your boss can come and fire you for no reason, and with no notice period. I wouldn't like to have that uncertainty, and for employers their employees can also quit with no notice, leaving the employer struggling to find and train a replacement. I presume the changes in Brazil haven't gone that far?
@DT:
Mar 28th, 2018 - 09:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “and these guys are protected by their political immunity: Even mayors of small towns?”:
In small towns; they are the monarchs. NOBODY can even fart without a blessing from THEM!
REF:
https://i2.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Foro-privilegiado-da-o-exemplo.jpg?resize=580%2C411&ssl=1
@DT
Mar 29th, 2018 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0None of the main parties are much better than the others in keeping promises…some are totally ignored, others partially kept…but I think it comes down to the individual politician’s moral compass and determination, more than the party, to try to accomplish what was promised in the campaign.
Temer, as VP, never really ‘campaigned’, other than stand beside Dilma while she blew her mouth off at a few political rallys…and he, as candidate for VP, not President, could not have an agenda different to Dilma’s. Besides, here the figure of VP is definitely very secondary to that of President - but it shouldn’t be, given that if the president goes, who’s left ?
The political immunity , as it (still) stands today, is probably why they all steal with impunity. That is exactly the vote (to revoke it) that is being held up in the STF, because one judge (Tofolli) “wanted more time” to analyze the matter, despite its being discussed for nearly 2 years…when revoked, hundreds of charges piling up in the STF (awaiting judgement) will be sent to the lower courts all over the country, and convictions will be made before the charges prescribe (as they do currently, in the STF).
Brazilian Labor laws (until recently) were a bit too rigid, but they always defended the employee’s legitimate interests over those of the employer…the fact the law has now been “flexibilized” (does such a word exist ?), has not removed any of the basic guarantees which already existed. Sure someone can be made redundant (if, let’s say, business is bad), but that person has to be paid off according to the law…nbr of days worked in the month, proportional 13th salary, vacation days due, sometimes extra bonuses depending on the work convention (employer/union agreement), plus 40% of total in their special retirement fund (FGTS), paid into by the employer (roughly 1 salary/year’s employment in the company), 4 months unemployment insurance…so they can’t just be dismissed and that’s the end of it.
@JB:
Mar 29th, 2018 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF:“Lula will not be jailed next week.............................., and his freedom is guaranteed until that date”:
You COULD BE right! Although, from the “happenings” around; it looks MORE like:
“Lula will NOT be jailed next week.............................., and HIS FREEDOM IS GUARANTEED”:
https://i0.wp.com/www.novasdodia.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/charge-lula-medo-500x330.jpg
Of course, I do stand corrected AND would BET on his being jailed:
- symbolically [like the others], just for a few days
- either in a luxurious 5-Star jail
- or at his Very Own Triplex!
@:o))
Mar 29th, 2018 - 06:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0My bet is on the STF unashamedly accepting the toad's HC to not go to prison....2 of the judges (Lewandowski , Tofolli) are notorious 'petistas', having belonged to the PT before being appointed to the highest court. Two others (Marco Aurelio , Gilmar Mendes) , over the last two years, have been very prolific in handing out HCs to allow known criminals (not only politicians) to walk....in other cases they have not recused themselves when there were obvious and serious signs of conflict of interests. Are they being 'motivated' by bribes ? Two others (Celso de Mello, Rosa Weber ) although not declared 'petistas' , have shown undue sympathy for the left, as if they needed to reward the poor lefties, and one wonders if their decisions will be based on the letter of the Law, or on ideology. Another (Alexandre de Morais, the newest judge), is an unknown factor, and can swing either way. The remaining three (Barroso, Fuchs, Fachin) plus the STF's president (Carmen Lúcia) will vote to put him in prison....so the final count might be either 7 to 4, or 6 to 5 in favour of the toad....or, perhaps even 5 to 5 (if Morais and Weber do the right thing), in which case Carmen Lucia (the vote of Minerva), will decide the toad's fate.
The 4th April should be interesting.
@JB
Mar 29th, 2018 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0According to Jack, Brazil would now be a country fighting as one against corruption. A corruption he knows runs across governments and political parties, but for which he selectively criticizes the PT and Lula da Silva.
Let's see part of what the Washington Post published on March 28:
”Prosecutors have alleged that Brazil’s government has effectively been run like a cartel for years...The probe initially focused on da Silva’s Workers’ Party, but it has implicated to other parties, including Temer’s (who) has been accused of corruption, but Congress twice voted to spare him a trial while he remains in office.“
So, corruption allegedly on both sides...only the treatment is different. Temer is spared a trial ”while he remains in office.“ Lula's case is processed at lightning speed to allow the courts to bar him from running in the next election, for which he is the favourite.
Now, we know where Jack stands politically.
Lula, according to Jack's high-level political analysis, ”is made of excrement.“
Jack fumes not only against Lula's alleged corruption--he also generously tarnishes Lula's record when in government for ”all the promises he did not fulfill.” (What about the promises he did fulfill, Jack?) But never mind.
On the other hand, Jack oozes support of Temer's government, 'cause that's his guy.
”Temer's recent reform (approved Nov 2017) attempted to modernize the laws and at the same time, attend worker vindications,“ gloats Jack. Of course. The reform was warmly greeted by businesses and employers but workers responded with the first general strike in two decades...but those people, according to Jack, are just ”chusma” or rabble.
Now, watch the investigation on Marielle Franco and the attack on Lula's caravan in Parana goes. Just don't hold your breath.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/campaign-caravan-of-brazils-da-silva-shot-at-no-one-hurt/2018/03/27/ccdfd6e6-3224-11e8-b6bd-0084a1666987_story.html?utm_term=.7e110289756f
@EM
Mar 29th, 2018 - 10:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Did you read the rest of the thread, where JB listed some non-PT politicians who have already been convicted and sent to jail?
The point I was trying to make is that the corruption investigations are not limited to only one party, and Lula is not the only one to be convicted. Temer is different because the Congress is shielding him from prosecution - so far. It was not stopped the prosecutors from accusing him though.
Even if most of Brazil is opposed to corruption, the corrupt themselves are not, and they are the people who get to vote on whether Temer should stand trial.
Individual judges can be biased one way or the other, or bribed themselves, as Jack seems to think some in the STF are. But others seem to be honestly trying to fight corruption, and it would be extremely beneficial for Brazil if they succeeded.
As for the employment law reform, what Jack described doesn't sound bad at all - much better than what my American colleagues have described. Which changes specifically do you think are unfair to workers?
@JB
“Temer, as VP, never really ‘campaigned’... and he, as candidate for VP, not President, could not have an agenda different to Dilma’s.”
What I was trying to say, is that he was elected VP based on Dilma's agenda, and although that was not his personal preference, he should have tried to stick to what the voters chose as far as possible.
'Interesting' description of the STF judges. If two of the judges are for sale, what makes you think Lula will be the highest bidder? There ARE plenty of powerful people who would love to see him eliminated from the presidential race. It's depressing that you are so sure they will vote along party lines though. What is the HC appeal anyway? Presumably something different from Lula's other appeal that went to the TRF-4?
@DT
Mar 30th, 2018 - 03:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0I know you are honestly trying to make some sense of Latin American politics.
In my humble opinion, to succeed in such a worthwhile task, an understanding of the main fracture lines requires looking at the big picture.
Jack, whose sympathies are on one side of Brazilian politics, will offer plenty details about many things, but that makes it difficult to make sense of what's at stake.
For example, some Brazilian judges have prosecuted individuals not from Lula's PT; this does not cancel the fact that Lula's prosecution is politically motivated. What else can do a president who in September 2017 had about 3 per cent approval?
For over a century, the Latin American elites kept power by elections or by force when elections didn't turn the way they wanted.
When the revulsion caused by the horrific deeds of the dictatorships of the 1970s and the U.S. for a moment looked elsewhere, freer elections took place. This resulted in several popular governments being elected in countries such as Ecuador, Paraguay, Honduras, Brazil, Argentina and Bolivia.
It would be an understatement to say that this fact caused sheer alarm among the traditional owners of everything. Something had to be done. Enter the legislative powers (Paraguay, Brazil and Honduras) to depose the offending individuals. In Ecuador and Argentina, progressive governments were replaced by conservative ones that are doing all they can to bar future progressive presidents from returning to power.
What has been the main achievement of the elites in the last decade? To divert the attention from political platforms and to focus on corruption. Are they looking at ending corruption? Not in the least. Ending corruption is not the judges' job--they can only act after the fact. Politicians, through tough control measures made into law, can reduce it. The conservative government in Argentina has relaxed controls to the max, making capital flight a national sport.
Don't underestimate the LA elites.
@EM
Mar 30th, 2018 - 11:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Are they looking at ending corruption? Not in the least. Ending corruption is not the judges' job--they can only act after the fact. Politicians, through tough control measures made into law, can reduce it.”
But the politicians haven't passed any 'tough control measures', and nor will they when they are the ones benefiting the most from rampant corruption. As a new party, the PT surely had a chance to change things before their own politicians joined the corruption machine, but they didn't even try. The big government projects they favoured actually made things worse by creating more opportunities for bribes.
So who can blame the judges if they think it is their job to end corruption? No one else is going to do it.
I'm inclined to agree with you that Lula's prosecution - at least in terms of the speed and degree of attention given to it - is politically motivated. On the other hand, he was the head of government for 8 years, it can hardly have escaped his notice what was going on. Holding left wing views or wanting to help the poor do not make people immune to temptation, and I think it would be a very dangerous view to believe they do.
I'm curious why you think people like Jack, who are not part of the elite, reject Lula and prefer Temer's policies, eg the employment reform.
@EM:
Mar 30th, 2018 - 03:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “Are they looking at ending corruption? Not in the least”:
Is There ANYONE Seriously Interested In ENDING Corruption? YOU GUESSED RIGHT!
REF: “Politicians, through tough control measures made into law, can reduce it”:
- When they [maybe, 99.9999% of “them”] enter into politics; it's for ENJOYING the fruits of corruption!
- THEY make the laws, create a legal system, write the constitution; to cover their own arses and the arses of those who form a part of their band/s [irrespective to the Outer Clothing (to fool the masses) which they wear].
- FINALLY, The population gets the leaders they deserve [something to this effect I think A. Lincoln said] REF: Pobre povo brasileiro: é roubado em bilhões e só protesta por R$ 0,20 (vinte centavos):
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jl9UE3YMpiY/UbpZoPYrESI/AAAAAAAACdE/bSSalVcYFA8/s1600/Interpretando+a+charge+14.jpgl
@EM
Mar 30th, 2018 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“..corruption he knows runs across govts, parties, but selectively criticizes Lula”. Don’t tell me the obvious - I know corruption’s endemic in Brazil, but high-level corruption’s usually practiced by those “IN” power…’n we’ve just emerged fm 14 years of PT, which besides landing us with the biggest recession in decades (due not only, to incompetence), is linked to the 2 greatest corruption schemes Brazil’s ever seen, which broke companies, Brazil, ‘n caused mass unemployment…mere coincidence ? Today it’s Lula, tomorrow it’ll be Temer.
Reason why “The probe ‘was’ initially focused on the PT”, is simple…when the 1st indication of corruption surfaced - at the ‘carwash’- investigators had no idea where it’d lead…it led to the PT, then it was a matter of unraveling the skein. While Temer is in office, he can be investigated but not charged with crimes prior to his current term..It is the Law.
Lula’s lawyers complained about the speed of his conviction in the TRF-4, yet insisted that the STF speed up his HC…contradictory, don’t you think ? they complain when it suits them.
Despite Lula’s HC, he is barred from the election because of his prior conviction in the TRF-4…again, the Law.
Yr “(What about the promises he did fulfill, Jack?) But never mind”…NO, not “never mind” - YOU tell me which promises he made ‘n kept. Since you know so much about him, should be easy..
The protests against the Labor Reform, supposedly ‘staged’ by workers, was no more than the unions ‘using’ them to complain against the abolishment of the infamous obligatory union contribution, which 99% of the workers have always been against. Don’t pretend you know even the first thing about our labor laws…you don’t.
Again twisting my words : NEVER called the “workers” ‘chusma’- used it only to describe the Argy soccer fanatics. Reekie, grow up ! Just fyi, the ‘caravan shooting’ is pointing to a set up for Lula to pose as a victim ,”don’t hold your breath”
@DT need space to reply to you..
@JB
Mar 30th, 2018 - 05:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Good timing, now you can reply again...
@DT
Mar 30th, 2018 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0EM must have seen the list, but as it contradicts what he wants to believe, he ignores it.
Your “Temer should have tried to stick to what the voters chose as far as possible“ makes sense, but seriously speaking, here the great majority don’t ‘really’ know “what” they are voting for…or what issues are at stake. They vote for the person with most charisma, the one who tells his/her lies more convincingly. If you were to ask a very average citizen why they voted for Dilma, the reason(s) would most likely be extraneous to presidential duties…like, “Ah, she hugs poor people & kisses babies...she must be nice”.
Why I think Lula will be highest bidder, is because the PT is the party that robbed the most.
The TRF-4 confirmed his prior conviction, 3 x0 / the STJ (next/3rd instance) also threw out his appeal, 5 x 0, so it’s now up to the STF to concede his HC appeal, to stay out of prison.
@EM
Just to clarify, Lula’s barred fm elections due to the “Lei da Ficha Limpa”; approved 2010, had massive support fm the PT – they believed ‘their’ corruption scheme was perfect, and that it’d only eliminate their adversaries, but it turned around to bite them in the ass.
I’m not oozing support for Temer, but for the essential reforms to get Brazil back on track. Once approved, AFAIC, Temer can go to hell.
As to your “Jack generously tarnishes Lula's record when in govt, for all the promises he did not fulfill”, I could have been far more ‘generous’, but lack of space restricted my generosity. But you don’t need to believe me, check it out for yourself…if you have the ‘cojones’.
Sure my sympathies lie on ‘one’ side, whose don’t ? but I chose sides knowing both sides of the story…you don’t ; as they say here, “you’ve heard the cock crow, but don’t know where”.
You ask “What the main achievement are, of elites in the last decade ?” the ‘biz’ elites produced jobs ‘n progress / the govt elites promoted corruption, together with the biz elites, for personal gain.
@JB
Mar 31st, 2018 - 12:19 am - Link - Report abuse +1“here the great majority don’t ‘really’ know “what” they are voting for…or what issues are at stake”
Have you asked them? I suspect the answers would be more like “The PT actually care about poor people and try to help us, unlike the other parties.” Kinda similar to Trump voters, who felt their problems had been ignored by both parties for a long time.
Besides which, if politicians don't stick at least reasonably close to what they promised, it becomes really pointless to vote for anyone based on policy, and charisma is the only thing left.
We'll find out who won the bidding war in a few days, I guess. Were you saying that Lula will still be barred from election if he wins this appeal, he just won't go to jail? If that's true than maybe the other parties will want him to win. They know any of them could end up in the same position some day, so they wouldn't be too keen to set a precedent by sending him to jail as long as it's not required to stop him running for president.
@DT:
Mar 31st, 2018 - 10:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “if politicians don't stick at least reasonably close to what they promised, it becomes really pointless to vote for anyone based on policy, and charisma is the only thing left”:
100% TRUE! By the way, WHICH country do U refer to?
WHILE IN BRAZIL; it's a LAUGHING MATTER!:
REF:
https://i0.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/00rs0329crs.jpg?resize=571%2C420&ssl=1
@DT
Mar 31st, 2018 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just to finalize an open thread…Right, as an undergraduate I studied Economics (4 years, a.m. classes). Computer science was just as you described it…not particularly helpful unless you intended taking it up as a profession, not to mention that when the IT ‘revolution’ arrived, everything changed
Back to the above : as a matter of fact I have...In my Condo we have 12 employees (porters, cleaners, garage valets, janitor) and over the years one gets to talk to them...plus dozens of others, workers in the local grocery store, drugstore, cobbler, bakery, gas station, and while quite a few, more recently, have begun to realize that Lula was a fake, before, with few exceptions, they praised him. I used to ask why (in the attempt to reason with them and 'convert' them), but they were never objective, usually being unable to pinpoint anything Lula had done, except for the BF...when I'd insist, they'd allege “but he knows how to communicate with the people”...true, but his discourse didn't translate in to many positive, long-lasting actions. When I mentioned all the corruption, most weren't really aware of it, those that had 'heard' of it, had no idea of its extent, and of course, there were those who claimed to know all about the accusations and insisted they were lies..without giving one reason to justify their way of thinking....today, they are all slightly smarter.
When Dilma was elected, I used to ask them who the VP was....90% did not know. The fact is that the PT was really no different to the others...what made it stand out was the BF, as if it would solve all their problems...we know it hasn't.
Brazil's politicians regard their promises in two different ways..one, a useful tool to get them elected...two, deep down they feel no need to keep them because the people - at least until recently - were too dim to realize they were lies, and what to say when most people can't even remember who they voted for in the last election ?(excluding President).
@JB:
Mar 31st, 2018 - 03:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “When Dilma was elected, I used to ask them who the VP was....90% did not know”:
They may not know who the President is or they may not even be able to name the capital. BUT they'll surely know the last score of their favorite team or how the last chapter of their favorite soap-opera ended.
REF:
http://sinceridadesinconvenientes.blogspot.com.br/2011/12/as-pessoas-procuram-um-iabo-chifres-e.html
Interesting. I don't think I've ever talked about politics with random people I meet, it would surely lead to arguments.
Mar 31st, 2018 - 08:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Were all the people you spoke to Lula supporters, and did you manage to persuade any of them?
“but he knows how to communicate with the people”
That's not so far off from what I was thinking. Something to remember is that until the recession Brazil had been growing strongly, and things were improving all the time. Whether or not it was the PT's doing, why change the government if it's working? Often it's not until something goes wrong that people start looking for different people and new ideas.
Besides, I'm still not sure why you hate Lula so much. There's the corruption, but they all seem to be involved in that, and broken promises, but that's not uncommon either. You even say the PT was really no different to the others. Yet you don't seem to hate any of the other (lying, stealing, unscrupulous) politicians even a tenth as much as Lula.
I bet those people will pay a lot more attention to who the VP is in future, anyway. And they really don't remember who they voted for? How many people do you have to vote for anyway? We only have national, local and European elections, and there won't be any more of the latter. Each of those is only one vote and people pretty much vote for the party, not the person, so it should be easy to remember. I *think* I remember my last votes; the European elections were ages ago.
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