MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Brazil Supreme Court delays considering change to a law that could release jailed Lula
A Justice on Brazil's Supreme Court on Tuesday ordered a delay until next week of a debate on changing a law that could, if passed, lead to the imminent release of recently jailed ex-president Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesREF: “Considering a change a law”:
Apr 11th, 2018 - 02:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Eventually, The Eunuchs [being without balls + considering their Long-Term Benefits of associating with a “Popular-Party”] WILL do it!
“PEN filed the petition back in 2016. The hard-right party had a change of heart this week, even trying to withdraw its petition, when it became clear that if successful the petition would benefit Lula, the main leader of Brazil's left.”
Apr 11th, 2018 - 03:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Lol, hypocrites. Seems stupid to let convicted criminals stay free until all appeals are exhausted, something that could take years. I bet the people supporting this change to get Lula out of jail would not want the same rule for the other politicians convicted of corruption.
Oh supreme irony. The Supreme Court will debate a law change that could, if approve, mean freedom for Lula and others behind bars. The irony is, the request was made in 2016 by a tiny right-wing party that has had now a 'change of heart.'
Apr 11th, 2018 - 03:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In any event, allowing those who don't yet have exhausted their appeal avenues to remain free makes sense. Why start punishing today those who tomorrow may be found non guilty?
To prevent the sentenced by lower courts to spend too much time in freedom while appeals are dealt with, the logic response is not to imprison them 'just in case,' but to provide the courts with resources to process appeals quicker.
While we wait for the Supreme Court ruling, let's take a look at some excerpts of Lula's speech before turning himself in to police a few days ago:
“To put poor people in the university, blacks in the university, allowing poor people to eat meat, poor people to buy cars, poor people to travel by plane...if this is the crime I committed...I will continue being a criminal.”
“I am the only human being that is sued for an apartment that is not mine.”
”Just like TRF4 and Moro, Lava Jato and Globo, they have a dream (that) the coup did not end with Dilma (but will) conclude when they manage to convince Lula to not be a candidate for President in 2018.“
”It’s no use trying to stop my dream, because when I stop dreaming...my heart will beat through your heart and there are millions of hearts.“
”I’m no longer a human being, I’m an idea, an idea mixed with your idea...all of you, from now on, will become Lula and you will walk through this country doing what you have to do.”
“In any event, allowing those who don't yet have exhausted their appeal avenues to remain free makes sense. Why start punishing today those who tomorrow may be found non guilty?”
Apr 11th, 2018 - 08:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you crazy? Why bother punishing anyone at all if you have to wait years to do it? Why bother having lower courts if every case is going to be appealed to the highest one? You can be sure every criminal would appeal if they could stay out of jail by doing so. Or if it is too costly and difficult for everyone, then it would be a loophole for the rich to escape justice while the poor have to do their time.
Canada is much stricter than Brazil, there you only need to be convicted by one court to be sent to jail. Before this week, has that ever struck you as unfair, or a bad thing? It's the job of the court to decide if you are guilty, if they do then there is no longer a presumption of innocence. We have appeals to fix mistakes, but they are not supposed to be a routine part of the process.
I know you think Lula has been unfairly convicted, but this ruling does not only affect him. If it passes it will give a get out of jail free card to many, many people who do belong in jail.
@DT
Apr 11th, 2018 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re EM's “The irony is, the request was made in 2016 by a tiny right-wing party that has had now a 'change of heart.” (not bothering to address Reekie as he doesn't answer anything properly).
Irony ? for whom ? for the poor lefties who are are crying that Lula's in jail ? and so what ? something we see here all the time, are politicians and political parties changing their views according to what suits them best at the moment.....you might say they are now doing the right thing (supporting prison after conviction in an appellate court) for the wrong reason (not wanting to be seen as the party that made it easy for Lula to get out of jail...him, and thousands of other criminals - murderers, paedophiles, rapists, drug dealers, corrupt politicians of all parties). EM is incapable of seeing the big picture, only seeing his beloved dictator pining away in jail...the reasons he is there, are what matter least.
Lula's “I am the only human being that is sued for an apartment that is not mine” is hilarious...after realizing he's said too much - because he can't control himself when he's drunk - he changes direction trying to fix the 'unfixable'....it's what he says about all his properties, ”they belong to a good friend of mine” (who let me use them as IF they were mine)....very convenient.
As you well point out, the justice system in civilized countries sends people to jail after one conviction in a lower court, so why is Reekie so upset because his hero has finally been jailed after the first “three” courts have condemned him ? ah, because all the judges in all the courts, plus those in the STF who voted against Lula, have an agenda....a big conspiracy...LOL
@DT:
Apr 11th, 2018 - 09:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “If it passes it will give a get out of jail free card to many, many people who do belong in jail”:
Ultimately, all the crooks will be legally declared as “Not Guilty”; under one excuse OR another & sooner OR later.
But the worse part is that a vast majority of these crooks never had been, and will never be behind the bars.
The SAME crooks WILL ensure - Gradually, Discreetly & Constitutionally - that the corruption is on its way to get PERMANENTLY Legalized. Believe it or NOT!
@DT
Apr 12th, 2018 - 02:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0I should clarify that my argument in support of avoiding prison during appeals concerns non-violent offenders, non-flight risks and other cases where a convicted freedom may be against the public interest. Judges will consider each individual case.
Now, since you mentioned Canada, where the law according to you “is much stricter than Brazil, there you only need to be convicted by one court to be sent to jail,” it's not as clear cut as that.
Release pending determination of appeal depends on many factors, but the general rule is:
679. (1) A judge of the court of appeal may, in accordance with this section, release an appellant from custody pending the determination of his appeal if,
(a) in the case of an appeal to the court of appeal against conviction, the appellant has given notice of appeal or, where leave is required, notice of his application for leave to appeal pursuant to section 678;
(b) in the case of an appeal to the court of appeal against sentence only, the appellant has been granted leave to appeal; or
(c) in the case of an appeal or an application for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada, the appellant has filed and served his notice of appeal or, where leave is required, his application for leave to appeal.
As you can see, Canada does not make a cure-all of imprisonment (as does the U.S.).
Unfortunately, in Canada as well as in other countries, a wealthy accused or convicted is still likely to do less time than a poor accused or a poor convicted.
However, available statistics from 2010/2011 show ”the majority (77%) of adults under correctional supervision in 2010/2011 were in the community, usually on probation, and about one-quarter (23%) were incarcerated.”
Back to Lula's case, the Canadian judiciary generally do not use prison as weapon of governments or political factions to neutralize political rivals -- which, beyond any legal considerations, is without a doubt what's behind Lula's imprisonment.
@EM:
Apr 12th, 2018 - 10:33 am - Link - Report abuse +1REF: Lulla's imprisonment:
https://i0.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/liberdade_internet.jpg?resize=514%2C420&ssl=1
Your prayers will be answered any moment! You needn't pass through an agony of waiting for twelve Solid Years. Don't you have ANY faith in THE Corrupt System?
Huh, really? The UK doesn't jail as many people as the US, but I have never heard of anyone being let out of jail while they appealed. The 4 MPs who were convicted of expenses fraud all went to jail immediately, as did Jonathan Aitken, although he was convicted of perjury, not corruption.
Apr 12th, 2018 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How does it work in Canada, do they put them in jail and then let them out again if they appeal, or do they get to stay free like in Brazil? And can anyone appeal or are there limits? Surely it doesn't mean convicted criminals remaining free for years like it did in Brazil?
“I should clarify that my argument in support of avoiding prison during appeals concerns non-violent offenders, non-flight risks and other cases where a convicted freedom may be against the public interest. Judges will consider each individual case.”
I'm glad to hear it, although I shouldn't think that leaves all that many cases.
As for Lula, I think it's perfectly plausible that Moro believes him guilty as strongly as you believe him innocent, and saw Lula's plan to stand for president again as a way for him to gain immunity from prosecution. However, the speed with which his appeal was processed certainly suggests someone had an axe to grind. It will be interesting to see what happens to the accused ministers who have resigned in order to stand for election in October, if their cases are pursued as vigorously by the lower courts it will suggest the aim really is to end corruption, if they are delayed or allowed to remain with the higher courts it will suggest Lula was the real target.
@DT:
Apr 12th, 2018 - 04:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “Why start punishing today those who tomorrow may be found not guilty?”:
That's a good one!
How about:
“Why investigate and carry out the trials; if in any case, ALL the crooks will be sentenced as ”Not Guity”? REF:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/f3/ec/28f3ecfb351306bb605cfb811bcd2be3.jpg
@EM
Apr 12th, 2018 - 05:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“the Canadian judiciary generally do not use prison as weapon of governments or political factions to neutralize political rivals -- which, beyond any legal considerations, is without a doubt what's behind Lula's imprisonment”.
“...is without a doubt what's behind Lula's imprisonment”.
Reekie, your above statement implies that you know more about Brazil's judiciary system, than the system itself. Care to explain ? what information are you in possession of that we, in Brazil, aren't ? Am not 'dictating' rules, just asking a simple question.
@DT
“...and saw Lula's plan to stand for president again as a way for him to gain immunity from prosecution”.
No doubt about that....which does not mean that that is the reason why Lula is in jail...I'd say he's in jail because he's been proven a crook, in three courts.
“However, the speed with which his appeal was processed certainly suggests someone had an axe to grind.”
Funny you think that. While I think that the 'speed' part is partially true, let's not forget that Lula was involved in the “mensalão” and only escaped impeachment thru political deals (with PMDB), and that he had been under investigation for about 4 years (or longer ? can't remember off-hand) so to say the speed with which he was charged / convicted (becos of the PB corruption) is undue, and is not exactly correct. On the other hand, when Lula's lawyers wanted his HC in the STF to be ruled upon 'immediately' considering that under 'normal' circumstances could take months or years, I didn't hear anyone complaining when the STF obliged them...
As to the governors / ministers who resigned, therefore having given up their immunity, it should be interesting, however, for any charges to be formally presented, it will depend on how long they have already been under investigation. Besides politicians of ALL parties are being targeted, not only Lula.
Supporters of the current state of things in several Latin American countries would have us to believe corruption is the reason for the ousting of governments or their defeat in elections.
Apr 12th, 2018 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course, it is easy to see the common thread in Paraguay with former president Fernando Lugo, with Honduras president Manuel Zelaya, Dilma Rousseff in Brazil, and Cristina Fernandez in Argentina.
In Brazil, particularly, the ousting of Rousseff and Lula's prosecution are but two events meticulously planned and executed.
This cannot be understood without taking a careful look at the coup d'etats used as main strategy for most of the 20th century in Latin America, as well as the emergence of progressive governments elected in the late 1990s and early 2000s.
The current strategy is focused on ending, and preventing the occurrence, progressive governments elected by the people and install at their place solidly conservative, pro-U.S. governments.
In the past, they shot opponents. Today, instead, popular leaders are destroyed through the use of the 'corruption' accusation, installed through massive resources that include friendly judges and journalists.
Particularly galling is the example of Brazil, where Dilma is deposed and Lula is imprisoned by individuals who face numerous corruption accusations.
This is dismissed by supporters of backward, reactionary trends, and assimilated by large swaths of electors.
However, the hard facts are out there. We only need to be willing to see.
@JB
Apr 12th, 2018 - 10:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have your answer; EM doesn't need evidence because what is happening in Brazil must be just like Paraguay and Honduras. Maybe all those Latin American countries look the same from Canada?
I suppose it's true Lula was suspected earlier in the mensalão, but really that's just more evidence for the political bias in prosecutions. He made a deal with the other parties and was able to remain in power, and the investigation was dropped. Even when his term ended and he no longer had immunity, nothing happened until the PT-PMDB coalition fell apart.
Why did Lula's lawyers want the HC case heard so quickly, anyway? He wasn't in jail while waiting for it.
RE governors of other parties, it seems the Lava Jato investigators did try to get things moving quickly:
http://www.bbc.com/portuguese/brasil-43738122
Google translate isn't very good with Portuguese, does it say they transferred Alckmin's case to the electoral court? And would you say that's a dodge to slow it down, given he only needs six months delay and then he can probably get immunity again?
The Political Division:
Apr 13th, 2018 - 01:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0https://brasildecide.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/charge-benett.jpg
@DT
Apr 14th, 2018 - 04:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re EM, right, I have my answers...without being explicit, they ooze through his every word.
Too bad if he REFUSES to answer questions honestly, prefering to believe what he wants to...repeating the same fallacious arguments over and over again...i.e.,
“Of course, it is easy to see the common thread in Paraguay with former president Fernando Lugo, with Honduras prez Manuel Zelaya, Dilma Rousseff and CFK ...”
He's right though, “it's easy to see the common thread in Pguay etc”...while 'perhaps' not all of them members of the FSP, definitely all sympathizers, seeing themselves living regally, at the top of a poor continent. If EM could have his way, he'd want all the above 'wannabe' dictators back in power asap, believing that they have the people's best interests at heart ....from which you can deduce he must be unhappy because Canada is a capitalistic country, without a dictator.
Well, it's only normal that when a crook goes to trial for the 2nd time, accused of the same crimes, that his past is going to weigh in....a pattern of behaviour that kind of corrodes away at his credibility.
After he left power, and the PMDB took over, the PMDB no longer really needed the PT, in fact wanting distance from them due to the bad reputation they'd earned themselves...and Lula could hardly accuse them of wrongdoing without accusing himself, so it depended on an independent third party to investigate ALL of them...the 'lavajato'.
Lula's lawyers were in a rush to get the HC ruled upon because they wanted to avoid his going to prison, which they knew was imminent without a favourable decision on the HC.
Alckmin's case has been referred to State Electoral court . Fact is, the accusation of receiving illegal campaign donations in 2010 & 2014, is one that more than half of Congress is facing...not a 'dodge', as it IS the correct jurisdiction for a supposed electoral crime of a governor.
On May 2nd the STF should revoke the immunity law, so it'll make no difference
@JB:
Apr 15th, 2018 - 03:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As far as the advocates representing the crooks are concerned; The Highly Paid Advocates are smarter, far more experienced, better educated, & better paid than the “Politically Affiliated/Appointed” Judges [who are MOSTLY corrupt as well]. Hence, such advocates being the elite of the elites - as a gesture of respect - not only they do deserve their FAT FEES but also; also deserve that some loopholes to be NAMED after them! Isn't it?
@:o))
Apr 15th, 2018 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Funny thing is that now, Paulo Okamoto and the PT leadership, claim that poor Lula is going hungry and that he can't pay his bills, because the 'nasty' Moro has blocked his assets. So, in a extremely fraternal gesture they are making a monthly collection to help the toad pay his monthly expenses, such as power and water...but expenses from where, since his SBCampo apartment is closed ? But what about his two millionaire sons, can't they help him ?
But they forgot to mention that Moro did not block his salaries....which are : his benefit as ex-president, a special retirement conceded because the military regime jailed him for 29 days, and his salary as president of the Lula institute, adding up to approximately R$ 30,000 per month. Poor toad.
Another absurdity, the Senate Human Rights commission, formed mainly by PT senators, has announced a visit to the Federal Police HQ in CBA, to ensure that the toad is being treated well…a 15 sq mt cell all to himself, with private bog, TV, window looking out to the street , and a private gym next door to his cell….what more does a toad need ?
But strangest of all, if he's broke, who is paying his lawyer's very expensive fees ?
@JB
Apr 15th, 2018 - 10:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If EM could have his way, he'd want all the above 'wannabe' dictators back in power asap, believing that they have the people's best interests at heart ....from which you can deduce he must be unhappy because Canada is a capitalistic country, without a dictator.”
I'm sure the first part is true, but probably not the second. Canada is a much more equal country than Brazil, already takes care of the poor, and has decent education and opportunities, so not much for him to complain of there. Would be interesting to know if he'd be happy for a government with similar policies to Canada's Liberal party to be elected in Brazil, or Argentina. Seems like that wouldn't be socialist enough for him, but who knows.
“Well, it's only normal that when a crook goes to trial for the 2nd time, accused of the same crimes, that his past is going to weigh in”
AFAIK in the UK the jury is not even allowed to know if the defendant has a criminal record, let alone if they have been investigated in the past but not charged with anything. It's supposed to prevent bias in trials. But anyway, why do you think Lula was not charged over the mensalão when it had been investigated for so much longer?
“On May 2nd the STF should revoke the immunity law, so it'll make no difference”
So they have set a date now? I thought one of the judges was delaying things? But anyway, will all the cases go to the lower courts on that date, except Temer's? There must be a lot of worried faces in Congress.
@ALL:
Apr 16th, 2018 - 04:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So which crook will be [or should be; according to you] the next corrupt president?
@DT
Apr 16th, 2018 - 08:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just being sarcastic in 2nd part. I know previous crimes are irrelevant, from a legal standpoint, when later ones are being tried, and only the evidence or proof pertaining to the later process can be considered. But as a citizen, the repetition of similar crimes allows one to form a pretty accurate opinion.
During the 'mensalão', AFAIK, Lula was never really “investigated”. Although his name popped up several times (whistle blowers), he was called upon only as a witness, and replied every question with “I know nothing” ; Lula was quite prepared to throw his cronies under the bus to save his own ass, and they seemed pleased to oblige. He emerged from the ‘mensalão’ with the nickname of “Teflon” president, as no charges would stick to him, despite general consensus that he was involved.
Good to remember, 1) in the ‘mensalão’, most defendants were PT politicians, all enjoying immunity, that’s why the trials, necessarily conducted only by the STF, took so long (5-7 years), (2) according to news reports at the time, investigations were carried out rather shoddily, ignoring accusations which should not have been dismissed so quickly, probably because the PT, still at the height of its popularity (2007/12), used all its influence to sweep dirt under the carpet.
Also, the “lavajato” was conducted by a new breed of prosecutors, many having studied abroad, plus Moro who’d been to Italy to learn about how the “clean hands” operation (against the Mafia) was conducted.
The STF president, Carmen Lucia (presumably after consulting with Tofolli, who months ago decided to delay his vote despite the issue already technically decided by the majority) programmed the continuation of the courts discussion of the issue (immunity), for 2nd May. After the vote, only Temer (president) and a 'few' others will remain with immunity (while in office), so all those that today are favoured by the STF delays, will be referred to lower courts, where things will move much quicker.
@JB
Apr 16th, 2018 - 11:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0For all I know previous crimes might be considered in Brazil. Lots of things are different in the Brazilian justice system, and many of them not good IMO.
I guess Lula's teflon has well and truly worn off, now. Did he accuse the judges of being unfair back then, and claim his colleagues were innocent, or did he acknowledge they were guilty and just deny knowing about it? (Or something in between?)
I'm glad to hear the immunity is going, though. It should be very interesting to see who is charged and how quickly.
@DT
Apr 17th, 2018 - 12:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “I'm glad to hear the immunity is going”:
The BAD news is that it's just going to be transformed into a very vague law with a PLENTY of loopholes - a feast & present to the crooks + their crooked advocates.
@DT
Apr 17th, 2018 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ Lots of things are different in the Brazilian justice system, and many of them not good IMO.”
I'd go one further, lots of things are different in Brazil, but if they weren't (all that different) perhaps we would'nt be discussing this right now. The fact is that corruption is widespread in Brazil, it's in every little nook and cranny....think of the most unlikely crime you can, in the most unlikely place, and you'll find it in Brazil.
Back then, as Lula was being let off the hook, with his gang members taking the fall for him, everything was great...to him, Brazil's justice system was working 'wonderfully'...he even had the nerve to say that he had been “betrayed by a bunch of idiots” (referring to his loyal collaborators who'd been accused and convicted - true to his immoral personality). His traditional defense is “I know nothing”....even while all his cronies are up to their necks in it.
With the end of immunity, depending on the type of crime (mainly corruption, and most involving legal and illegal donations, with the latter going straight to their pockets), their cases will be distributed to several lower courts, where justice is known to be (much) quickler than in the STF.
Yday I posted some results of a couple of polls, but one thing stands out : when the question presented the candidates names, Lula (still) appeared with 31%, but when the answers were 'spontaneous' (no names presented), Lula dropped to 13%...think that shows that unless reminded, he is being forgotten.
@JB:
Apr 17th, 2018 - 03:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “he is being forgotten”:
NOT by the masses of The Electorate [that MAKES the difference] who hear the promises - the “words” - about the benefits; by the virtue of voting for “The Candidate”
REF:
https://blogdoleunam.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/lula-humanos.jpg
@JB
Apr 17th, 2018 - 09:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“he even had the nerve to say that he had been “betrayed by a bunch of idiots””
Really? I'm surprised his 'loyal collaborators' remained loyal, in that case.
I wonder what will happen in future if sitting politicians are convicted of crimes? Will they lose their jobs or what? I'm not sure they have enough shame to resign voluntarily.
And yeah, lots of things are different in Brazil, and only a few I think are better. It's a mystery to me why some countries become corrupt and others not.
@DT:
Apr 18th, 2018 - 12:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “I'm surprised his 'loyal collaborators' remained loyal, in that case”:
I'm not so surprised that he now is in the company of his Good Old Pals in Curitiba [nut for not for long enough].
@DT
Apr 19th, 2018 - 04:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Really? I'm surprised his 'loyal collaborators' remained loyal, in that case”.
It was all part of the farce...blame his collaborators, insist he “knew nothing” and come out smelling like roses.
The 'supreme leader' is all that matters...without him, as we've seen recently, things seems to fall apart for the PT...why are they so insistent in claiming ONE man's innocence ? can't they exist without him ? proof of that is Jose Dirceu, as well as Palocci, both in jail, refusing to disclose sensitive information and doing time (to protect Lula)...if that wasn't their end game, why do time if they could exchange information for a reduced sentence ?
More than 200 members of Congress have been mentioned in plea-bargains, mainly for having received donations (both legal and illegal) , but fewer for actually participating in corruption schemes, such as deviating money from PB (by directing 'overpriced' contracts to contractors in exchange for favours other than campaign donations), as not all were in a position to do so.
If and when convicted (and jailed ?), presume Congress will have to take the decision to terminate their mandates, as well as to remove their political rights for 8 years...which means they'll have to find jobs to survive (if they haven't robbed enough).
Think the mystery is easy to understand : all depends on the mindset of the people, which in countries where corruption is very little, has had the time to evolve intelectually and to instill a better code of behaviour in their minds.
Heh, I very much doubt any of them will need to find jobs if they get chucked out of congress. Didn't you tell me most of them were rich before they ever got there? It's not like they needed to steal, but I suppose for some people you can never have too much money.
Apr 20th, 2018 - 08:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And Lula is much more popular than any other possible PT candidate, seems kind of surprising they didn't set someone one up as an alternative earlier, but presumably they have a plan...
“Think the mystery is easy to understand : all depends on the mindset of the people, which in countries where corruption is very little, has had the time to evolve intelectually and to instill a better code of behaviour in their minds.”
That's so chicken and egg though. If the mindset depends on the corruption around them, and the corruption depends on the mindset, what makes it go one way or the other? I'd wonder if it had something to do with all the immigration that meant people didn't know their neighbours and were happier to cheat them, but it seems to be just as common in African countries.
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