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Poll shows a majority in UK want a “people's vote” on final Brexit deal
The majority of people in the UK want a “people’s vote” on the final Brexit deal, according to a new survey in which some 52% of respondents expressed support for the idea.The survey, conducted by pollster Opinium Research for pro-EU campaign group Open Britain, saw 31% of respondents say they were opposed to a “people’s vote”, while 17% said they didn’t know or had no opinion. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesI totally agree that we should vote on the final deal. Leaving is one issue, the terms is something quite different.
Apr 16th, 2018 - 01:07 pm - Link - Report abuse -2The “terms” are likely to be vastly more complicated than a question of “Leave or Remain”.
Apr 16th, 2018 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +2The original vote led to a “Leave” decision.
Given how the campaigns for Leave and Remain went, what could be expected for the campaigns to support or reject each of the terms?
After the above Support or Reject campaigns were played out and a vote of the people taken, I am curious what would have to happen next if the terms were rejected.
Would the first vote to Leave still need to be honored? Should there be another vote to answer this question?
Would the UK's negotiating team have to ask the EU's negotiating to start that long negotiating process all over again?
Wouldn't the second set of terms then also need to be voted on, with yet further campaigns to support or reject these new terms?
What if the newly arrived at terms were also rejected by the people, then what?
Does the UK seeks yet a third edition of terms, or do they revert back to the original terms?
Would the UK then enact the already considered scenario of leaving without any terms, or would that also now have to be voted on?
Does the UK now Leave anyway, or is that original vote just thrown out?
No. Obviously we can't submit each term to a referendum separately. The only sensible way to do it would be to have two options - either leave on the terms the government has negotiated, or stay in the EU on the same terms we have now. That's well defined and everyone knows what they are voting for, unlike in the last referendum. If the EU will agree in writing to allow the latter then I would support another vote.
Apr 16th, 2018 - 03:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course you would as you are a remoaner
Apr 16th, 2018 - 03:16 pm - Link - Report abuse +1And of course after all their moaning about democracy and the will of the people, the Brexiteers oppose letting the people have another vote.
Apr 16th, 2018 - 03:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Only a fool would want to leave no matter what the terms. What would that achieve? At the point of knowing the terms and consequences of the momentous decision people should be allowed an opportunity to decide if that is the best option for the country. Who would agree to leave if the deal was seriously detrimental? On the other hand if the deal is good it would unite people. What is there to be afraid of?
Apr 16th, 2018 - 04:13 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Certainly those who voted to leave voted that way not knowing what any terms were going to be.
Apr 16th, 2018 - 05:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What would that achieve?
It achieved what they wanted, a separation from the EU. Any terms thereof were not too important to them it seems, leaving is what seems to have been paramount to them.
@EB
Apr 16th, 2018 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -2“Who would agree to leave if the deal was seriously detrimental?”
Bushpilot, Golfcronie, The Voice, Conqueror, Roger Lorton... either they don't care about the economy, or they refuse to believe in any downsides.
Problem is, if we get a bad deal, which is all but inevitable, the Brexiteers will blame it on the EU and whine about unfair they're being to poor little us (it's the victim mentality that really annoys me). It'll just be turned into another reason for leaving. And since the effects won't really become visible until we actually leave, it'll be easy for people to ignore the damage.
@ DT Do any of them actually live in the U.K.?
Apr 16th, 2018 - 07:10 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Yeah I see your point but we are a democracy and if the majority demand a vote on the final deal it is more then possible. The fact that there is evidence of massive cheating and breaking of campaign rules by the Leave group would strengthen the case.
DT,
Apr 16th, 2018 - 07:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Because they are not seeing things your way, you accuse them of being blind.
Most Leavers are just not going to see the detriments of leaving as worse than the detriments of staying.
You won't see things their way either, but you will argue, “that is because, due to my being ”well educated“, I am smarter and more enlightened than them, not because I am blind.”
Michael Caine said this on Brexit, “I'd rather be a poor master than a rich servant”. He has a point but one that probably would not have won over any Remainers.
I'm an American by the way. Brexit's impact on me has less impact than if HRC was elected POTUS, of which people from your side of the ocean had something to say on these boards.
Perhaps revisiting the Brexit question has some level of merit.
I'd like to ask you about your post above in which you mentioned, “the will of the people”. My question is not so related to economics, although that is critical.
Do you see the EU as an entity that places import on “the will of the people”?
Is the EU big on referendums, and then, after that, second referendums?
@bushpilot
Apr 16th, 2018 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I didn't think you were British, but I was going to guess you were from a commonwealth country. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you won't have to live with the consequences. The US is so powerful that your president does make a difference to the rest of the world.
Since you're American, let me ask you a few questions: Do you think the 13 colonies would have been better off becoming 13 separate countries? Does your federal government value the 'will of the people'? Would you prefer your state to leave the US and become an independent republic?
My opinion of Brexiters is based on the ones I have talked to. Most deny that leaving the EU will cause problems, and dismiss any concerns by blaming some kind of conspiracy. Your Michael Caine quote is a good example of someone who wouldn't care if the deal was seriously detrimental to the economy. Most of the tabloid media in the UK strongly supported Brexit, so perhaps not surprising that people were influenced by it.
I don't think the EU places enough import on the 'will of the people', but then I don't believe the UK government does, either. And you have to remember the EU is not a country, it's a union of countries and each of the individual members has their own government that wants to keep as much power as possible, and get the most advantages for their own country, rather than passing control to the elected EU parliament.
IMO the EU needs a lot of reform, but I still think we were better off in than out. The UK had a lot more influence in it than people think.
@EB
“The fact that there is evidence of massive cheating and breaking of campaign rules by the Leave group would strengthen the case.”
Very true. I'm not sure anything has improved WRT people believing fake news on Facebook, though.
Fantasy if anyone thinks the EU would allow us to change our mind and stay in on the same terms as we had before.
Apr 16th, 2018 - 11:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +2All the budget rebates would go - so probably would the £Sterling.
UK voted to Leave - if UK votes to stay in now - effectively “rejoin” - it will be 100% on Brussels terms- full costs no rebates - bring in the Euro- etc.- and we.d get the Bill in full for their side of the costs of negotiations and losses etc since the referendum.
Just the same as the terms UK will be offered over next 9 months- Uk voted to Leave- Brussels will set the main terms- not UK.
Ah, but they want us to stay in. If the requirements to cancel Brexit were as you mentioned, I would vote to leave in a second referendum, and I suspect so would many other people. Adopting the Euro in particular is a deal-breaker. That is why I said they would have to agree to us staying in on the same terms as now - Gibraltar included - for me to support a second vote.
Apr 16th, 2018 - 11:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We are leaving…
Apr 17th, 2018 - 07:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0I agree, we are leaving, but the terms on which we leave is still a matter of concern and should be put to the public vote.
Apr 17th, 2018 - 10:32 am - Link - Report abuse +1@DT I think that in the past our government was happy to keep a large part of the population relatively ignorant as they were easier to manipulate. This flood of uncontrollable false information is now a concern. Finally, we are seeing a rolling programme going into school to teach pupils how to deal with the volume of information they are being fed, how to assess the source and put it into context. We used to call it critical thinking. I am glad it is back.
Dont care about the economy!!! Please… thats one of the main reasons for leaving. Your 'information' = EU propaganda. Your unwitting slurs about us all being misinformed thick racist and biased says everything about you you arrogant prick!
Apr 17th, 2018 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well, you're one of the ones who doesn't believe in the downsides. I do think you're misinformed, but I never said you're racist or thick.
Apr 17th, 2018 - 01:44 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Well, in the newspapers we have the IMF relegating Britain to the lower tier of the G7, and on the lunchtime BBC News there is an item from up North with market traders, shopkeepers and ordinary folk saying things are on the up and feeling optimistic about the future. Its the same pattern all along, the establishment, so called inteligensia, big business and usual suspect naysayers prophesying doom and gloom and running Britain down. Whilst the rest of us just carry on an get on with it. Obviously there will be some downsides in the short term along with many more upsides but at least we will be rowing our own boat without the drag of legions of Brussels based drones trying to screw us an impede us as happens right now.
Apr 18th, 2018 - 01:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Bye bye Brussels!
The evil neoliberal IMF vs the ordinary folk? You sound almost like Corbyn, TV. ;)
Apr 18th, 2018 - 05:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anyway, you can't say I'm wrong. Even if we got the worst deal imaginable for Brexit, you wouldn't change your vote, would you?
We voted, its done. We have witnessed the EU's antics during the period since we voted. No sane person would wish to continue to be in an organisation run by them. I wouldnt change my stance because it would leave us with all the negative things and probably even more negative things that they would impose upon a weakened Britain if we changed our stance. I dont like the word deal, it sounds like you think we should keep kowtowing to them. We just want free trade with them without all the other nonsense.
Apr 18th, 2018 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just as I thought. But you accuse me of calling you racist and thick, and then you go and call me insane. That's not very fair, TV.
Apr 18th, 2018 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +1As for the 'deal', it would be more satisfying to tell the EU to fuck off and slam the door on the way out, no? I'm sure Mexico and Canada would like to do the same to Trump when he demands they renegotiate Nafta, but they have to think about what is best for their countries, and so does our government.
The trouble with deals is that you have to give something to get something. The EU is not willing to give us free trade without 'all the other nonsense', and we can't make them. Still, surely it is May's constant caving to the EU's demands that really annoys you?
If the EU dont want to trade freely with us that is their prerogative. We do have a significant market for their goods and they will loose trade and a lot of jobs. Its a negotiation. I dont think you are insane, just wrong.
Apr 18th, 2018 - 10:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thank you. I don't think you are racist or thick either, just wrong.
Apr 18th, 2018 - 11:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But really, what were you expecting? If you think the EU wouldn't give us what we wanted as members, then how much less cooperative will they be now we are leaving? They were very plain about their terms before the referendum, it's not their fault the Leave campaign refused to believe them.
Such polarised “arguments”. Let's try for a simplification. In the first instance, I can only agree with Islander1. I can just imagine the European Commission response if the UK were to say that it wanted to go back to the pre-June 2016 situation. By being totally hostile in “negotiations” that should have been between “friends”, it has managed to achieve retaining overall “control” whilst dividing the people of the UK between those that look to the overall benefits for the country and those concentrated on their immediate greed and selfishness. The EC simply wouldn't agree. And let there be no mistake, it would not be a case of the UK asking the 27 member states. It would be the UK asking the member states AND the European Commission and European Parliament. Both of whom have a vested interest in keeping the British people divided. If people don't recall, the EC and EP are already committed to removing all the opt-outs and rebates that made British membership just about bearable. And, without the opt-outs and rebates, the EC would “eventually” agree that the UK could retain its subservience provided it paid more and could be looted to a greater extent.
Apr 19th, 2018 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +1The truth is that it's easier for people to make a decision about their overall objective than to try to balance each individual aspect. It is so obvious when one considers the ludicrous “arguments” put forward by Remoaner MPs and Lords. To put them in a perspective, they are a frightened group that want to keep shopping at the corner shop on the estate because they know the gang that controls the estate. They cannot bring themselves to leave the estate and make a life in the town, the city or the country. And how could Remoaners cope when the UK returned to “the world” in which it was so successful for a thousand years. When they no longer had their european nanny's skirts to hide behind? I'm not surprised that Demon Tree probably hasn't spoken to many “Brexiters”. Most wouldn't want to bother with his education.
@Conqueror
Apr 19th, 2018 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If people don't recall, the EC and EP are already committed to removing all the opt-outs and rebates”
People don't 'recall' this because it is a blatant lie. And as I said, if the EU would not agree to let us continue our membership on the same terms as now, then I would not support staying in. A simple decision about the overall objective was exactly what I proposed, the only difference to the previous referendum is that we would know what we were voting for, rather than the dishonest Boris version where Brexit would give us all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of EU membership.
As for 'returning to the world', d'you think we've been living on Mars? We've always been in the world, we've always traded with countries outside the EU, we've always had relationships with other countries, we've always had influence and used it. The sort of people who stay on the estate where they were born are exactly the ones who voted for Brexit; the ones who took the opportunities available are not the people complaining and blaming the EU for their problems.
There he speaks a myopic person characterising Brexit voters once again - what sort of estate, it implies the Council Estate where the poor uneducated thickos live! Remoaners cant seem to stop themselves. As for younger folk that have no experience whatsoever of living outside the Superstate they appear to have no clue about how the Superstate has been screwing us bigtime for years and preventing us from trading how we want to with our Commonwealth pals.
Apr 20th, 2018 - 07:55 am - Link - Report abuse +1Why don't you tell me then? How is the EU stopping us trading with our 'Commonwealth pals' and how would that benefit us more than being in the EU? All I hear from the Brexiters are vague generalities, complaints and insults. What specific benefits can we get from leaving?
Apr 20th, 2018 - 10:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0And it was Conq who brought up 'estate', I was thinking of the people round here who live in rural towns and villages. The more adventurous and ambitious people tend to leave because there aren't many jobs, but others just want to stay in the same community and near their families. Nothing wrong with that, but they sure didn't vote for Brexit to have more of a relationship with the rest of the world.
The EU has many tarriff barriers that discriminate against non EU food producers. Have you ever been on a German strip farm, I have. African nations are discriminated against big time. This stunts their economic growth and forces food prices up in Britain. And, you are at it again. First you transfer your imaginary predjudices onto ordinary working people who you obviously have very little contact with and then blame them for it! We arent in charge of our own economy, its all dictated by France and Germany to suit them and Remoaners wont open their eyes and see it. Perhaps people on 'Estates' have a bit more vision than you.
Apr 20th, 2018 - 01:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +1No, I've never been on a German strip farm. How about you tell me what one is and why it's significant? And while you're at it, why don't you find out how much money we'll save buying cheaper food from Africa, vs how much we'll lose by not being in the single market? That is the sort of argument that would change my mind, not ridiculous bullshit like saying France and Germany control our economy.
Apr 20th, 2018 - 03:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And maybe I'm just explaining it badly, but what exactly is wrong with wanting to stay in the community you grew up in instead of moving to some city where you're surrounded by strangers? Some people like hustle and bustle, meeting new people and having lots to do. I prefer to live somewhere quieter myself. Conq is the one saying there's something wrong with not wanting to leave the 'estate' and make a life in the town.
@DT. Oh dear, dear, dear. I can only assume that you must be Russian. Or that you make automatic assumptions about the word “estate”. Perhaps it would be wise for you to broaden your education by researching the meaning of the word.
Apr 20th, 2018 - 03:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +1But then it is typical Remoanerism. Pick a word or phrase, assign your own meaning and then rail against it. As it happens, I live in a rural area. But it still has a large number of foreign nationals. There are innumerable “developments” with scenic areas and green fields being built in to force the indigenous population into smaller and smaller rabbit hutches in order to cope with uncontrolled migration. And, with the EU-forced benefit system, there is no natural control on foreign breeding.
The Voice is quite realistic, but doesn't mention other factors. For instance, Germans make more money out of coffee crops than the people who grow them. And, in one instance that I always think of, New Zealand employs slaughter methods that many in the UK find objectionable. The EU doesn't care. So when I see New Zealand meat in the store, I won't buy it. Left to ourselves we could tell New Zealand to adopt more humane methods or lose the trade. And, of course, food prices in the UK are higher than they need be because of the CAP. Who benefits most from the CAP? The French, Spanish and Germans. One of the reasons for the UK rebate. France takes 22% of all CAP subsidies, Spain takes 15%, Germany takes 14%. the UK only gets a measly 9%. Even Italy gets more with 12%.
In reality, Remoaners are blinded by their own ignorance.
Fly over Nuremberg and look down, literally hundreds of thousands of strips handed down since medieval times. Some owned by the same farmer killometres apart! England gave that up hundreds of years ago and its what WE subsidise. What WE lose will be very little, what big business (who dont care a toss about the rest of us) loses will be more significant. And these are the people that moved our foundries to Portugal and machine shops to Romania. You live in an ivory keyboard tower, you obviously never worked in a factory or a building site. Totally out of touch like so many younger folk and ignorant to boot.
Apr 20th, 2018 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse +1@TV
Apr 20th, 2018 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wow, I didn't know those still existed anywhere. We learned about the enclosure acts in school, it increased food production but led to most people becoming landless labourers while just a few owned the new, larger farms. They're pretty irrelevant on the scale of the CAP though.
As for ”What WE lose will be very little, what big business (who dont care a toss about the rest of us) loses will be more significant.“ are you a socialist now? Who do you think owns the factories and building sites? Big business, mostly! We 'younger folk' stand to lose our jobs, and we are VERY in touch with that possibility.
All the cost-benefit analyses I have seen show that Brexit is a net loss to Britain, and that's why I opposed it and still do. If the numbers supported Brexit they'd be shouting them everywhere rather than trying to discredit experts and making up shit about the EU.
PS. ”there is no natural control on foreign breeding” - Conqueror
Tell me again how Brexiters aren't racist...
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